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Open mike 11/03/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 11th, 2022 - 182 comments
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182 comments on “Open mike 11/03/2022 ”

  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

    ‘Fairytale’ wedding at the protest

    they were both unvaccinated.

    "We’re not against the vaccine in any way"


    “The Delta variant is still circulating and we can't presume all infections are Omicron. While less virulent than Delta, Omicron can nevertheless cause severe disease and death, particularly among the unvaccinated who make up 3 percent of the vaccine-eligible population but 19.4 percent of hospitalisations.

    There are still many vulnerable people in the community we can protect by limiting the spread of the virus and ensuring they are less likely to encounter it.”


    Fairy tale alright. Fools. Meanwhile all Expert advice is be careful. Omicron is NOT mild. Wear masks,social distance. Get Vaccinated !

    • Treetop 1.1

      Last night I went online to RequestRats.Covid.health.nz to obtain a RATS test. I was not eligible.

      Unless certain symptoms are occurring a person does not qualify. I have had a headache and nausea for 2 days and I have been off my food.

      I will try ringing as headache is a symptom of Covid.

      So in the meantime due to the testing criteria I could be spreading Covid.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1


        Ok. Well I hope you get through and not covid.. And of course take precautions. Mask etc.Best wishes for you

        • Treetop

          I did see that a person can request RAT tests for another person. People who live on their own and are without a car will find it a bit awkward. Too bad if family are isolating and friends do not have the time to wait at a testing station or do not want to be exposed to Covid.

          The better option for me is to pay $55 for 5 tests at the chemist 5 minutes walk away or find another place who will sell me 2 tests.

      • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2

        Treetop if you think you are sick, rest. Sometimes it is 4 or 5 days before the viral load is heavy enough to show on the rat.

        Grant our son finally went for a nasal test, before his infection showed. He is struggling to recover, suffering throat cough and aching tiredness 4 weeks out. Rest fluids and anti-inflamatories key to weathering it. He is on the Gold Coast.

        Don't try to work through it. All the very best to you.

        • Anne

          Best of luck Treetop. Its an anxious time.

          I had to visit my GP the other day and my 'lift' had to pull out after being a close contact with a Covid colleague. (I'm not allowed to drive after my op.) I had to uber there and back. The driver en route home started coughing and at one point opened his window and spat out of it.

          I'm sitting at home crossing my fingers it wasn't Covid. Awful time.

        • Treetop

          Obtaining a RAT test is one thing dealing with Covid is another. No one wants family unwell with Covid.

          People are having a lot of close calls with Covid exposure. A person should not need to wait until they become sicker and use up what energy they have to obtain a RATs test through the online RequestRats.Covid 19. health.nz I rang them an hour ago and requested the ring me back option, wait time approx 20 minutes. There was no confirmation given that they would ring back so I redid it a few minutes later when the option came up again and no confirmation was given.

          The cost of a 5 test pack varies.

      • Bruce 1.1.3

        Feeling off colour on monday I walked to the local chemist , paid $36 for 5 RAT tests, tested positive and registered the result on the covid site. I got a phone call the next day from health dept asking my symptoms, health status and where to seek support if i required it, we had stocked up on rice and have pot plant garden so had no need. Its friday morning and starting to feel ok.

        I used honey on my tongue and vitamin C double recommended dose and lemon, honey, garlic and ginger . I am immune suppresed.

        I understand everybody is different and will react in all manner of ways , this is my exprience and as one in the group of most at risk I haven't found it too bad.

      • joe90 1.1.4

        So in the meantime due to the testing criteria I could be spreading Covid.

        Shouldn't you be isolating yourself?

        Self-isolation reduces the risks of spreading the virus to others. You will need to isolate for at least 10 days while you recover. Your 10 days start from Day 0 — the day your symptoms started or the day you got tested.


        When does my 10-day isolation start/end?

        What day did you get symptoms or test positive (whichever came first)?


        • Treetop

          I am isolating even though I could be negative. I thought isolation was now for 7 days. From 11.59 pm tonight it is 7 days.

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            'When you are self-isolating, you can exercise outside your home. You can exercise outdoors in your neighbourhood — but not at any shared exercise facility, such as a swimming pool or gym.'

            Is the isolation period – 7 days from tonight- from date of symptoms or date of test ?

            • Treetop

              See the link at 1.1.4 Joe 90 supplied. It is up to date apart from the shorter 7 day period, but states this being effective at 11.59 pm Friday 11 March.

    • Shanreagh 1.2

      "We’re not against the vaccine in any way, we’re against the fact that it’s been forced and no-one has a choice on anything any more," he said.

      This reason is one of the worst (in the range of words like 'silly') reasons for not having the vaccine. My father used to call it

      'cutting your nose off to spite your face'.

      Nothing about objections such as allergy, make up of the vaccine etc

      But because 'da man' (ie the Govt) suggested it would be a good idea.

      Well 'da man' does more than suggest in many of our laws. 'Da man' has actual rules against doing or not doing things.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.1

        Oh Hi Shanreagh. And yep. Is head shaking stuff. Ah well,hope you allgood in Wellington and I did rate you for being into the after- party…"protest" cleanup . Good on you : )

        • Shanreagh

          Thank you. smiley

          Our big cleanup could not go ahead as it is still being looked at as a crime scene and some of the scale and type of work that is being done could be dangerous to enthusiastic amateurs. They are having to deal with all the stormwater drains that had sewage and other things poured down them.

          We are being deputed to clean up our neighbourhoods. I do this from time to time but now am looking for one of those picker upper/hook things to really get into it. WCC does do a great job of street cleaning but rubbish does get hooked up in street trees etc.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always

            now am looking for one of those picker upper/hook things to really get into it.

            Ah. Can vouch for them. Back/knee savers : ) “Reacher and Grabber Pickup tool” Not sure if I was allowed to google Link shop stuff ? But “Trade Tested” seemed possibility.? Or similar. In NZ…..

      • mpledger 1.2.2

        They are unvaccinated and then say "we’re against the fact that it’s been forced and no-one has a choice on anything any more,"

        A bit of irony.

  2. Scotty 2

    Christ I wish, I didn't have to endure Josie Pagani speaking on behalf of the left.

    I find her one of the most irritatingly verbose commentators around.

    • Red Blooded One 2.1

      Agree 100%

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.2

      Well have to say, I didnt know who she was, until 2 elections ago. Labour landslide. Or John Pagani.for that. Anyway, Id say she’s to the Left as Prebble,Douglas,etc were….

  3. aom 3

    Josie Pagani is seldom worth a read, but today:https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128004033/dont-give-tax-cuts-to-those-who-dont-need-them. Not much to argue but of course, the Dome Head fan club will be out in force baying for their tax cuts and castigating the Government for the increase in the cost of living.

    The time has come to start looking at what is causing this 'sky is falling' problem. It is simply the way the monetary system has been engineered and heathy doses of GREED at many levels. Why do the banks have licence to print money then extort massive profits on the back of notional wealth creation that disappears overseas? We produce enough food to feed over 40 million but have to pay notional prices that may be gained in places we don't even export to. Try getting a job done by a tradie. The price has nothing to do with the size or quality of work in many cases. It is based on what can be rorted out of the client – often with threats of hitting one's credit ratings if payment isn't received within a week. One could go on but of course, to the critics, there is no need for reality to get in the way of socially engineered prejudice.

  4. Joe90 4

    Meet the new Boyars, same as the old Boyars.


  5. Dennis Frank 5

    China is concurrently using a covert pro-Russian line while promoting an overt neutral line. Best way to be a communist is to use a double standard.

    A glimpse into how China may seek to control its coverage was given in the days prior to the invasion, when an internal directive that was apparently accidentally shared on social media showed Chinese state media outlet Beijing News ordered its employees not to publish news reports that were "negative about Russia or pro-West." Beijing News did not respond to requests for comment.


    One glaring example came Friday, when CCTV broadcast a speech from International Paralympic Committee President Andrew Parsons, at the opening ceremony of the Beijing Paralympic Games, in which many parts of the speech were muffled and were not translated. The offending context? Parsons' "message of peace," in which he did not name Russia or Ukraine but said he was "horrified at what is taking place in the world."

    Those voices from within China who have tried to speak up — including five history professors who penned an open letter voicing their strong opposition to "Russia's war against Ukraine" — have seen their posts swiftly deleted or social accounts suspended.

    China's state broadcaster CCTV released a package in its morning newscast highlighting Moscow's erroneous claim that Washington had funded the development of biological weapons in Ukrainian labs. That insinuation is used to support the narrative that Ukraine — characterized by Moscow as an American puppet state — threatens Russia, and not the other way around. The source? Russian Defense Ministry Spokesman Igor Konashenkov

  6. PsyclingLeft.Always 6

    ACC has apologised to an abuse survivor after an employee breached her privacy by looking at her sensitive claim while investigating her husband for suspected fraud.


    The group of more than a dozen employees working at ACC's contact centre in Hamilton took photos of clients' injury descriptions displayed on their work screens and posted the images to a private Snapchat group called "ACC Whores".


    To call ACC dysfunctional absolutely minimises the reality. A decades long culture of Top Down bullying and harm…FROM them. Like many other Govt departments (winz/msd,etc etc ! ) need a CLEAN out. Managers needing non organisation and separate Required Performance Review would be a start.

    • Patricia Bremner 6.1

      They were found during a review and fired promptly. This happened during lockdown. One rotten manager involved his team. Sadly you are in your post labelling the upset and horrified 14000 other workers who would never dream of doing as they did. I am not at liberty to say how I know this.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.1.1

        One advocate believed her own privacy had been breached about 30 times by ACC staff clicking into her file, simply because she was representing a claimant they were managing.


        Of course you have a “personal” view…and at liberty or not, are perfectly entitled to it. However…IMO the ACC are adversarial. AND dysfunctional. And Im sure many who have had interaction would agree.

        • Patricia Bremner

          Last comment. As one firefighter turned out to be a pyromaniac, that does not mean they all behave like that.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always

            As one firefighter turned out to be a pyromaniac

            Fact. There was/is more than one Firefighter pyromaniac.. Why the need for Open Review.. Of all

            And whatever reason(s) you have, I am not in any way at you. As I have (always?) seen you as OK ? Anyway ….

      • Shanreagh 6.1.2

        I can well imagine Patricia. Smearing a whole workplace for the actions of a rotten few is unfair.

        I worked in a workplace during the 'if it walks we will restructure it' phase across the PS & State Sector. One of the moves brought to our happy non sexist/racist workplace, a group from an organisation that was traditionally from an all male department.

        The level of sexism was out of this world but worst of all was the smut that seemed vicious and anti woman in the type of jokes, comments at morning tea time, even down to the secret Santa presents that were bought by this group for their female colleagues.

        I decide to go above my second tier manager direct to the CE to find he had absolutely no idea that this sort of 'joke' telling was uncomfortable let alone breached the legislation/policies we were working to at the time. Strange turn around really as when I had left university I had looked around at an unregulated (for the isms) private sector and decided that the PS was probably a better fit.

        In the 2000s sexism was on the rise again.

        This kind of action there, and at ACC, has at it heart what I call a malignant anti woman approach, meaning it is far from inadvertent and may be/usually is deliberate. If in the ACC this manager's boss as ignorant of the 'isms' as I found with the last PS Chief Executive I worked with, then going above would have had no effect at all.

        • Patricia Bremner

          Thanks for that Shanreagh.

          I also worked in a place where a similar event happened I was "Interviewed" by seven seniors inspectors…all men, and on finding what had been reported could be proven, they "moved" the perpetrator sideways and systematically began closing down the school over a number of years.

          In this ACC case, I know a worker who was upset horrified and understood they would all be treated as guilty because of this heinous behaviour.

    • Molly 6.2

      Watched my friend fight ACC, their paid lawyers and doctors for over a decade in regards to mesh implant injury.

      The court case was scheduled for Monday morning, providing the first opportunity to challenge the dismissive, inaccurate and often contradictory reports of ACC doctors, none of whom examined her. If successful, the case would have assisted other mesh-injured women in getting their claims accepted.

      After more than a decade of pain, poor health, multiple operations and straight out lying, the opportunity to address the court that coming Monday, was a significant achievement.

      One that was removed when late on the preceding Friday afternoon, ACC got in contact to say they now accepted the claim. Once that happens, no court challenge is possible – so can't be used as precedent.

      This is only one example of what I witnessed.

      I agree, there is something rotten in the state of Denmark.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.2.1


        Oh Hi Molly. So sorry to hear your Friends battle with them. I remember this. (I absorb ..a lot )
        As I said extremely adversarial…..and seemingly dysfunctional. . Especially when some of their “Clients” are already suffering/struggling : (
        Best wishes for them and all.

        • Molly

          Thanks. Having been a horrified passenger on my friend's journey, who also participated in the select committee on this issue, I know more than I need to know.

          ACC added significantly to the stress she experienced.

          • Tiger Mountain

            I know several people driven to the edge of sanity by ACC for doing nothing more than try to access the services they thought it offered.

            Endless second opinions ordered, changes of case manager, made to feel like a fraudster or bludger, loss of previously supplied documents, “existing condition”, “age related condition” slapped on when it looked like the claim would be met.

            There are a couple of experienced lawyers I am aware of, Malcom McNeil and Hazel Armstrong, that often work for Union members ACC cases who must have Rhino hides to be able to stand it.

      • Craig H 6.2.2

        I used to work for a tetraplegic who had something similar happen – ACC accepted/settled his claim the day before the court case. It was enough to be sizeable deposit on a house, so it worked out, but seemed pretty despicable to me at the time.

        • Molly

          Although the case was withdrawn over a year ago, still waiting for ACC to settle the claim…

  7. roy cartland 7

    Technical note sorry if this is the wrong place, mods.

    I've worked out why the 'publish' button might not have been working for some.

    My phone has recently had some kind of silly update where it will default to leaving a space after you auto-input a word (rather than the cursor remaining tight against the last letter input). If there's a space after your email address, it won't register as legit, and the publish button won't work. 😇

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 7.1

      Ignore the mod note there, just moved it here because it's easier to discuss.

      Are you having to put your email address in each time you comment?

      • weka 7.1.1

        ok, I can see that in the Mobile version, you have to reenter details each time.

        • roy cartland

          Yes, I use ghostery which makes me re-enter reach time. Often I didn't notice the space thingy.

          • weka

            I tried putting a space at the end and it still let me Publish.

            Looks like the Mobile version makes some at least have to reenter each time.

  8. Herodotus 8

    Hipkins releases private info out to play political games. Paula Bennet did something similar when Nats were in govt. And many attacked Bennet/Nats for the actions (and it was extremely poor) Where are these now that a senior minister in this government went against specific advice not to disclose private information ?? Have many on the left lost their bearings and moral standing and are willing to accept this type of behaviour ? IMO many supporters of Labour need to take a moment and to think what type of country and leadership do they want and how LOW are they willing to go in accepting any form of government that includes Labour.

    "Case in point; Natasha Fuller and Jennifer Johnston. These women had their private details released to the media by a vengeful, nasty-minded little woman – Paula Bennet "

    "Runs in the ‘ family’ then. Much like Paula Bennett abused two beneficiary’s publicly by releasing private details.

    Disgusting bunch of cretins, really."

    "Oddly enough, however, Key was quite relaxed about Paula Bennett releasing the private details of beneficiaries in a blatant attempt at intimidation. "

    Once a bully always a bully


    • alwyn 8.1

      Now, now, be reasonable.

      This was Chippy talking and we all know that he would never do anything that could possibly be unethical. He also has taken his bosses words to heart and he is always kind in every word and deed. He is also a Labour MP and they are always totally pure in all their actions.

      You must be mistaken.

    • Pataua4life 8.2

      Hero – don't hold your breath. You will only get crickets from the left.

    • Molly 8.3

      It was inexcusable then, it is inexcusable now.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 8.3.1

        Not the same .Bellis was hawking her personal details all over the media in interviews etc

        Something about consular assistance or something was 'not released'

        The extra information given by Hipkins was insignificant in the circumstances and became part of Bellis own beat up in time honoured journalist fashion.

        Lives offshore as an expat and wanted to use of public health system when it suited

        meanwhile for the two beneficaries

        'Bennett, unimpressed by their arguments that she considered selectively left out some valuable financial facts, published figures showing their full income from the state including benefits and allowances.'

        • Molly

          I have an expectation of high standards from our representatives.

          Not as bad as Paula Bennett is a fairly low bar.

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            None of us are perfect.

            In the big picture he over shared.

            'At the time Hipkins said she was offered consular assistance twice but had not responded. Bellis insists the information is wrong.'

            No details on what that was , shes a journalist she knows how the game works

            Bennett was deliberate about providing deeper financial information

            • Molly

              "None of us are perfect."

              That's why the ability to admit that is a trait universally required, yet seldom displayed.

              • ghostwhowalksnz

                In this case it seems he doesnt want to breach her privacy again or something. It just gives a priveledged person much more 24hr news cycles that she doesnt deserve

                • Molly

                  Yes. Sometimes when you create a problem, it's difficult to navigate out without causing further mess.

                  A good reason to avoid creating the mess in the first place I would think.

    • The Mess 8.4

      Yeap, pretty disgusted with Hipkins doing this.

      Because the first rule of holes is to stop digging and recognise you fucked up. And Hipkins has mostly fucked up here with this unethical release of Bellis' private info.

      • Tiger Mountain 8.4.1

        If Ms Bellis is not a tory snout I would be surprised. Seems to me Paula Bennett was punching down big time with two beneficiaries, Mr Hipkins not so much given it is a public health emergency. Charlotte was a Paul Henry protege with a sizeable sense of entitlement if the MIQ affair is anything to go by.

        But no doubt someone here will say even people that enlist the Taliban to embarrass the NZ Govt. should get a fair go…

        • Herodotus

          So what has your basis of Ms Bellis background got to do with it ? I suggest you google "How to clean a Cesspool", it may have some relevance.

          Perhaps you should take some time to read Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle.

          Funny how with the likes of you and others, principles and what is deemed good behaviour go out the door. So when Bennett goes against privacy rules she is called everything under the sun ( and so deservedly IMO). When Hipkins does the same it is all the victims fault.


          • Jester

            It is ok when the left do it.

          • Tiger Mountain

            Having lived through many NZ Governments I would not particularly trust the fifth columnists at the top of the public service or their minions on anything much. They leak like the proverbial.

            There are very different rules for Government Ministers per the Cabinet Manual–if they get found out–than the rest of us. Sirkey admitted that he would delay OIA releases for political advantage which was discussed here at the Standard.

            Ms Bellis went public on various media channels and tried to put the boot into the Govt. even using her Taliban buddies, so I, even if the only one, do not blame Mr Hipkins for giving her a serve. And he will have to take the consequences.

            I am not into stoicism Herodotus, something my stoic mother still berates me for. My philosophy involves dialectical and historical materialism–class left in other words. Try and change the world not just be a spectator and ponderer.

    • McFlock 8.5

      Seems egregious to me – especially as it seems he was given advice saying the info shouldn't be made public.

      Deserves a sinbin for that one, for sure.

      • Dennis Frank 8.5.1

        The entire saga seems bizarre. Labour is busy proving that it rejects the principle of transparent governance, after pretending to agree with it.

        We don't actually know if what you call info exists. Advice from bureaucrats to ministers isn't automatically information. It could be disinformation. Wouldn't surprise me if it was based on a misunderstanding – I commented here quite a while back that officials may have sent her such offers but she may not have received them.

        Shit happens. Hipkins could ascertain the form the offers were sent (email? phone?), and tell her lawyer and/or the media. If it's in the public interest that truth gets told (which I believe it is). If it was a case of bureaucrats trying to get away with stonewalling a kiwi citizen trying to return home, then lying about it, that truth ought to be exposed. Hipkins ought not to collude in a cover-up!

        • McFlock

          From the original link in thread:

          Now it has been revealed in Parliament that Foreign Affairs officials gave Hipkins the details but told him they should not be shared publicly.

          Sounds like she maybe added a little extra to the punch from the ministry's pov, and Hipkins couldn't resist the urge to issue what he saw as a correction, even though he'd been clearly told the information wasn't allowed to be publicly released.

          Ardern might have confidence in him, but he still needs at least a hand slap. An option that in this day and age is apparently not the done thing.

          • Dennis Frank

            Not good enough. The public interest in transparency is evident. No excuse for any cover-up. The officials ought not to have attempted one. Hipkins ought not to have colluded. Can't see a moral compass operating. The PM ought to eliminate the problem by engaging with it….

            • McFlock

              Not good enough?

              What's not good enough? My opinion? Sorry about that, I'm sure.

              • Dennis Frank

                No, can't object to your taking the situation at face value. I smell a rat. I don't expect others to smell it. I was just expressing disgust…

                • McFlock

                  What was the "cover up" you smell?

                  • Dennis Frank

                    The facts of the claimed info you mentioned (that the officials told Hipkins he ought not to disclose to the media).

                    • McFlock

                      The "officials" saying that private information he disclosed should have been covered up disclosed? Yes, that's how "privacy" works.

                      It was not information that should have been publicly available. Whether someone has received consular assistance is personal information, not public fodder. Just like if they receive any benefits.

                      At the time Hipkins said she was offered consular assistance twice but had not responded. Bellis insists the information is wrong.

                      Now it has been revealed in Parliament that Foreign Affairs officials gave Hipkins the details but told him they should not be shared publicly.

                      Now, if the ministry gave Hipkins false information and she hadn't been offered assistance, that's a problem.

                      If they had contacted her and she received the messages but not responded, it's background information relevant to whether Hipkins/ministry digs in or backtracks, but still shouldn't be public information. Hipkins shouldn't have released the information, and it's an interesting question whether he should have had it in the first place.

                      But if they thought throwing a letter in the mailbox and not checking if she received it, that's a different problem but he still shouldn't have made the info from the ministry end public.

                      There's no "cover up" as such so far. There's private information that got released by the minister.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      I gather Bellis & lawyer requested the facts around the bureaucratic claim & Hipkins plus officials are refusing to provide them. Not sure if Bellis & lawyer have invoked the OIA.

                      Inasmuch as the two seem to feel aggrieved that officials are trying to get away with making false claims to damage her reputation, the facts ought to be made known to the two. There's also the public interest involved in the possibility that officials are lying.

                      That's why I smell a rat & believe the (apparent) cover-up ought to be exposed & defeated…

                    • McFlock

                      That's why we have courts and the ombudsman and the privacy commissioner.

                      Frankly I think Bellis overplayed her case, and that Hipkins shouldn't have released the information.

                      Beyond that, there's a process and the clutching of pearls online or in the media won't speed it up.

          • Jester

            When has Ardern ever punished a Labour MP?

  9. joe90 9

    Threats to intl civilian aviation & other means of transport in Europe & beyond sound a bit terroristy.

    • alwyn 9.1

      Well, the threat from Ukraine to civilian aircraft shouldn't be a problem. They have closed their airspace to civil flights.

      On the other hand what was that missile that the Russian backed insurgents in Eastern Ukraine used to shoot down MH17 in 2014? Now that lot sound like terrorists to me.

    • weston 9.2

      Heck just flood the place with sophisticated weaponry and foreign nationals with all sorts of idiological preferences , what could possibly go wrong ?

      • Ad 9.2.1

        Like the US has been doing for several years.

        Brennan has confessed to how much he regretted doing this.

  10. Jenny how to get there 10


    Prepping for genocide

    One of Vladimir Putin’s objectives in the Russian incursion into Ukraine was to “denazify Ukraine.”……

    …….Once Russia has succeeded however, the world will be a better place for it.

    Mike Smith

    "Neo-nazi", "Isis", "Untermenschen";

    If you can dehumanise a whole population you can begin to justify committing any crime against them, up to and including genocide..

    "Language defines reality. Language defines who is a “real” person, and who isn’t. He who controls language controls life and death….."

    Victor Klemperer

    ….. patriotic Ukrainians, anyone who doesn’t agree to Russian colonial suzerainty, are dismissed as Nazi: “de-Nazification” is the supposed reason for Putin’s invasion. The charges are obviously absurd: unlike the U.S. and many Western European countries where the far-right are in parliament (and sometimes funded and supported by the Kremlin), Ukraine has a Jewish President, a multi-ethnic cabinet and the far-right don’t even make it into the current legislative chamber…..

    What Putin’s Nazi Talk Reveals About His Plans for Ukraine

    By PETER POMERANTSEV March 4, 2022 11:34 AM EST

  11. Ad 11

    Somewhat weird to see US military intelligence having to refute charges that there are biological weapons of mass destruction in the Ukraine, charges being used by Russia as a pretext for invasion.

    US intel head rejects Russia's claims about Ukraine biolabs | TheHill

    It's SO Colin Powell at the United Nations 2003.


    • Poission 11.1

      Seemed strange response.

      • Subliminal 11.1.1

        The weirdest part is Nuland going so far off message:

        Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL), hoping to debunk growing claims that there are chemical weapons labs in Ukraine, smugly asked Nuland: “Does Ukraine have chemical or biological weapons?”

        Rubio undoubtedly expected a flat denial by Nuland, thus providing further "proof” that such speculation is dastardly Fake News emanating from the Kremlin, the CCP and QAnon. Instead, Nuland did something completely uncharacteristic for her, for neocons, and for senior U.S. foreign policy officials: for some reason, she told a version of the truth. Her answer visibly stunned Rubio, who — as soon as he realized the damage she was doing to the U.S. messaging campaign by telling the truth — interrupted her and demanded that she instead affirm that if a biological attack were to occur, everyone should be “100% sure” that it was Russia who did it. Grateful for the life raft, Nuland told Rubio he was right.

        • Ad

          That is too hilarious to be real. Nice link there.

          • aj

            flood the place with sophisticated weaponry and foreign nationals with all sorts of idiological preferences , what could possibly go wrong ?

            It's just going to become a clusterf**k for everyone unless cool heads prevail. With that in mind, this thread discusses how a lack of reflection on decision making overwhelms risk assessment. Scary reading because this will be happening on both sides.

            A quick thread about moral injunctions, imperatives, MiGs, no-fly zones, and the standards for effective judgment.
            Overall message: Acting on the basis of imperative-driven thinking, especially under time pressure in a crisis, is a common prelude to disaster


            And ….

            An International Relations Theory Guide to the War in Ukraine

            A consideration of which theories have been vindicated—and which have fallen flat.

            I’m hardly an objective observer here, but it is obvious to me that these troubling events have reaffirmed the enduring relevance of the realist perspective on international politics. At the most general level, all realist theories depict a world where there is no agency or institution that can protect states from each other, and where states must worry about whether a dangerous aggressor might threaten them at some point in the future. This situation forces states—especially great powers—to worry a lot about their security and to compete for power. Unfortunately, these fears sometimes lead states to do horrible things. For realists, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine (not to mention the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003) reminds us that great powers sometimes act in terrible and foolish ways when they believe their core security interests are at stake. That lesson doesn’t justify such behavior, but realists recognize that moral condemnation alone won’t prevent it.


        • left for dead

          Jesus….That's priceless.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 11.1.2


        ' supporting a multi-governmental community that conducts biomedical research and development, medical material management, worldwide communications, and the study of foreign plant pathogens.'

        So they study pathogens but only foreign ones

  12. Barfly 12

    I got some curries from an old boss of mine who owns a food manufacturing company we hadn't talked in a while so we had a bit of a chin wag …Well he hates Jacinda Ardern he, whilst being vaxxed himself , is really pissed about vaccine mandates and the "othering" of the unvaxxed – he was talking about the fostering of division in New Zealand. I really missed an opportunity (penny didn't drop until today). I wish I had thought to point out that in the Key years most of NZ and certainly almost all right wingers had no problem at all with "othering" and fostering division – Bennett and Key repeatedly used promises of "crackdowns" and increasing punitive measures against beneficiaries – the people weakest and least able to defend themselves. Their bullying was helpful in gaining electoral success so to all those carping on about "division" caused by mandates , particularly you right wingers go and get stuffed.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  13. Molly 13

    The interim Cass Review of the Tavistock (UK gender clinic for children and young people) has been released.

    (For context, NZ follows the ' gender-affirming health care' approach.

    • Molly 13.1

      Direct link to Cass Review Interim Report source document:


    • The Mess 13.2

      Oh fuck off with this [deleted] bs. It's bad enough the UK and USA are now infested with this anti-empirical pseudo-medicine bs without it also infesting NZ's public discourse too.

      As for why SEGM can fuck right the hell off: https://transsafety.network/posts/segm-uncovered/

      As for the Cass Review – Ugh, I'll wait until I see solid criticism of it before I'll even fucking touch it. As given the prevalence of [deleted] in the UK political scene I have no trust in it from the basis of my own eduction in history and philosophy of science.

      Lastly – finally having recognised myself as being Non-Binary (he/they) these wankers would quite merrily gaslight me and shove me firmly back into the he/him box. Discounting my own lived experiences as "delusions", "mental illness" and "lack of a father figure".

      Once they've finished with the Trans, Queer and more obvious Non-Binary people of course, because we must all go back in our boxes, especially if it kills us. As not to disturb the poor fragile things with the harsh empirical reality of the messiness of natural biological variation.

      [you cannot use that term as a pejorative here any more than you could call a group of women cunts. It’s a misogynistic slur associated with the worst kind of online abuse directed at women including threats of violence and sexual
      Violence – weka]

        • The Mess

          What the flaming fluffballs in all the outer hells? Since when is calling a trans-exclusionary reactionary feminist considered a slur by any evidenced based metric that takes into account the utter horrors transphobes within that group love throwing at the trans+ community?

          Oh right, can't hurt the white women's feelings now can we? Especially not what there's a whataboutism we can deploy. Because the horrific shit they've wound up facing (that they shouldn't have to face bar the very worst ones*) totally excuses the fact they're being horrible themselves.

          In other words, this is like saying we can't call a white supremacist a white supremacist because people are being horrible to them.

          Guess I'll just use Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes in place, since that is also a completely accurate term for transphobic arseholes ignoring reality in favour of abusing other people. Although I suspect you'll find just copying and pasting "trans-exclusionary reactionary feminists" more appropriate, after all, it has more history.

          Basically I'm extremely unimpressed with this approach. For values of understatement that I lack the working brains to fully elucidate at present in a way that is not a mass of swears.

          But I'll let RationalWiki do the rest of the work here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminist#TERF_as_a_slur

          As I need food.

          *Being the grandchild of a Holocaust survivor my tolerance for people who call for the extermination/extinction of others is at bingo and so I have no ethical issues in them being verbally flensed for their fuckshittery. However in saying this given what transphobes have inflicted upon the trans community (it gets pretty damn heartbreaking), it should come as no surprise at all they've faced that much raw hate and anger and being told to choke on girl dick.

          • Molly

            Oh right, can't hurt the white women's feelings now can we?

            Oh.,…that's a surprise.

            *Being the grandchild of a Holocaust survivor my tolerance for people who call for the extermination/extinction of others is at bingo and so I have no ethical issues in them being verbally flensed for their fuckshittery.

            Being interested in accuracy, identify where I said this, or linked to someone who did.

            However in saying this given what transphobes have inflicted upon the trans community (it gets pretty damn heartbreaking), it should come as no surprise at all they’ve faced that much raw hate and anger and being told to choke on girl dick.

            There’s nothing I can say in response to that, that’s needed for clarity.

      • Molly 13.2.2

        All good, The Mess.

        I'm not convinced your self diagnosis is based on evidential evidence, but am convinced that it doesn't matter to you. Your identity doesn't make a difference to me, as it should be, but fair play to you and your discovery and exploration.

        I'm suspect the tone of your comment indicates the self-awareness and comfort you now experience due to your new found insights.

        The topic here, is medical interventions for children and young people.

        What we would expect in terms of determining medical interventions, and what information is given in terms of informed consent.

        I did have a look at the link you provided, but the follow the money accusation regarding $58,500 total of anonymous donations isn't the smoking gun you might believe it is. It's also of no surprise to me that someone involved in SEGM would play a part in Keira Bell vs Tavistock, as it was a case regarding medical treatments for children. The rest of the link is similar in targeting people as unworthy to listen to, and not addressing concerns or alternate perspectives in any meaningful way. Your take is likely to be different than mine.

        The benefit of your link in reply to mine is that others can look, and consider a variety of perspectives.

        Along those lines, do you have an empirical data link that supports the medical and surgical treatment of children and young people with gender dysphoria or gender incongruence?

        I'm sure many here would be interested to read.

        • Molly

          Had a better look at the Trans Safety Network site, and their About Us page:

          Goals and ethics

          Our goal is to use exposure of anti-trans hate networks and organised harm campaigns to reduce or mitigate the impact of these where possible. We do this maintaining a focus on highlighting organised harm, including wider campaigns to incite public hatred targetting the trans community more widely.

          Rather than attempting to police individual prejudices we hope this harm-centric approach is a model for restoring public attention to attacks on trans people and cutting through intractable public debates about "cancel culture" or "free speech".

          Finally, we understand that transparency is absolutely fundamental to the sort of interventions we are undertaking. As part of this, with a very small number of exceptions, we fully cite every claim we make publicly, with links to openly available evidence, typically using web archival links to ensure that the evidence trail remains publicly accessible despite suspensions, modification or deletion of content by hostile groups.

          We will make rare exceptions to this rule in case of some of the most extreme material we monitor: some of the organisations we track frequently share explicitly and graphically violent content with the intent of desensitising their members. We do not think it's ethical or in the interests of public safety that we risk directing people towards these groups.

          In future we may also make limited exceptions to our full evidence goals where necessary to publish information which has not already been published in the public domain (such as leaks from private anti-trans groups where the leaked information is in the public interest).

          Nevertheless, our understanding and the standard that we aim for is that readers ought to be able to independently confirm our findings to the greatest degree possible."

          I could be wrong, but the whole blurb mentions nothing about providing original work and data regarding the transgender community. It is purely based on identifying those it considers harmful and critiquing them, such as we see in the link on your post. As regards, the post, it is ironic that while there is such glee in identifying individuals as connected, and associated with SEGM and Genspect who both list team members on their website, including credentials – Trans Safety Network does not appear to do the same. There also does not be to be any declaration of interests or funding in line with the transparency they demand.

          It is hard for me to reconcile their view of Stella O'Malley, whom I have seen interviewed and who publishes the weekly podcast A Wider Lens – strangely not linked to in the article – and who can be seen talking to transitioners in this video:

          Trans Kids – It's time to talk.

    • weka 13.3

      starting on this one too,

      • Shanreagh 13.3.1

        Best twitter response so far about the Cass report from Caro Betts.

        Sensible, unsurprising, commonsense, why all the spleen about it.

  14. Poission 14

    As price increases are a global issue,some see to call it as it lies.

  15. Jenny how to get there 15

    The usual useful idiots in the West who rush to add their support to Russian denials over the bombing of hospitals in Syria, are silent over the Russian bombing of a Maternity Hospital in the Ukraine.


    “On March 7 or 6, I don’t remember exactly now, but at a meeting of the UN Security Council, facts were presented by our delegation about that this maternity hospital was seized long ago by the Azov Battalion and other radicals,” Lavrov said, the state-run RIA Novosti news agency reported.

    “All the women in labor, all the nurses, and all the attendants were expelled.”

    Russia claims without evidence that the maternity hospital it bombed — which killed a child — was a Ukrainian militia base

    Bill Bostock – BBC, Mar.10, 2022, 12:04 PM

    ……Monday's strikes hit two hospitals – including one for mothers and babies – and a school sheltering internally displaced people in Azaz, near the border with Turkey, the UN said. Thirty-four people were killed and dozens wounded.

    Two hospitals were also struck in Maarat al-Numan, further south in Idlib province, killing at least 12 people and wounding about 36.

    One of the hospitals in Maarat al-Numan was supported by Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF). It was reportedly struck by four missiles in what MSF said was "direct targeting" over the course of 90 minutes.

    MSF said 11 people died, including five patients, and that the toll was likely to rise…..

    ……The Syrian ambassador to Moscow, Riad Haddad, previously said the US was to blame, a claim the Pentagon dismissed as "patently false".

    Russia rejects Syria war crimes claim over hospital attacks

    16 February 2016

    Same war crime. Same pattern of blaming the other side for it..

    So what's the difference? Are the Syrian people too brown, too Muslim?

    Don't support fascism it really shouldn't have to be said.

    • Brigid 15.1

      Speaking of useful idiots

      • Jenny how to get there 15.1.1

        And you Brigid, are a low fascist liar who thinks genocide is funny.


        Few will be fooled this time.

        • aj

          There is a bloody history of medical facilities being attacked, whether deliberately or in error. Nobody has clean hands.

          • Jenny how to get there

            Absolutely. You nailed it.

            All empires have to expand, it is a product of the capitalist growth economy, all empires are racist, all empires are genocidal. It is the nature of the beast.

            Not only are the growth economies of the various political and economic blocs knocking up against each other, they are knocking up against the physical natural limits of the planet. There is no infinite growth on a finite world. The inevitable result of infinite growth is war and environmental collapse.

            1930s German propaganda was full of newsreels of the horrors of the British Empire. As stupid as it sounds now, Hitler claimed that his new German empire would be more humane.

          • Jenny how to get there

            P.S . I am hoping against hope here aj.

            Aj by you putting up this list of recent Amercan war crimes, I hope you are not indulging in a horrible game of 'Whataboutism' to justify Russia's bombing of a hospital.

            If we bomb hospitals, so can they?

            Let's be clear.

            Is that what you are trying to say, aj?

            I hope not.

            I hope that you are pointing out that all imperialisms commit war crimes and even genocide to achieve their aims. That, that is the nature of the beast.

            • aj

              In a propaganda war, the most recent extreme atrocity is the only one the target public will remember and inconvenient truths will be forgotten. Hypocrisy rules. Yes, "all imperialisms commit war crimes and even genocide to achieve their aims. That, that is the nature of the beast". If we start crying 'whataboutism' and accuse someone of justifying atrocities to shut down the conversation then we've lost the ability to put context into the discussion.

      • Jenny how to get there 15.1.2

        I think Brigid, your fascist tactic of using fake news to cover up the war crimes of your fascist heroes and defame their victims is getting old. Really old.

        Commentary: From Guernica’s ruins, a lesson in fake news

        By John Lloyd, Commentary

        "for the German air force, Guernica was a trial run on how one can spread horror and distress through attacks on cities and towns.”

        ….when the fires had become embers, Franco’s nationalists entered the town. With them came the spin-doctors of the day. They ensured that telltale German and Italian shell fragments and bullet cases were removed, and empty oil drums placed about the town. When journalists friendly to Franco were brought in, they were told that the Basques had destroyed their own town by setting it alight – hence the empty oil drums. As Paul Preston writes in his book, “We Saw Spain Die”, most of the reporters followed the lead, and the lie was sent around the world….

        ….The nationalists’ efforts to blame the victims, flimsy (and disgusting) as it was, was believed because those who swallowed it wished to believe it. It exonerated those who perpetrated the attack and confirmed the view of Franco’s supporters that his and their enemies were evil…..

        ….it shows that fake news often originates from those who accuse their enemies of producing it…..


  16. Jenny how to get there 16

    Sergei Lavrov latest claim, strains even the credulity of Russia's apologists,.

    It seems the West's useful idiots who usually swallow and repeat every denial Lavrov has said about Russian war crimes in Syria have gone to ground over this one..

    Two weeks into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov falsely claimed Thursday that the country “did not attack" its neighbor.

    Russian foreign minister falsely claims that it didn’t invade Ukraine

    From CNN's Sarah Dean

  17. Jester 17

    Do we not have any decent DJ's in NZ? This is pretty bad when so many NZers were overseas trying to get MIQ spots.

    MIQ 'irrational': Hundreds of entertainers, dozens of DJs granted exceptions to get into NZ – NZ Herald

  18. weka 18

    Nails it

    • McFlock 18.1

      Speaking for myself, I'd be inclined to proactively trespass someone from the entire facility if their behavioural history was that bad.

      • weka 18.1.1

        well good to hear you are coming round to not putting rapists in women's prisons.

        I think you might be missing the point though (admittedly it was implied rather than explicit).

        Gender activists insist that trans women are women, always. And anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, always. Because TWAW, they should be treated like women, always. Even when they are rapists. In this ideology world, rapists who are trans women should be allowed into women's spaces, always. Because they're not men, they are women and have the right to women's spaces like all other women.

        You either let all TW in, or if you don't then you accept that some TW are dangerous as males and/or that some males are pretending to be TW.

        • McFlock

          Interesting that that is what you heard.

          I seem to recall that my position has consistently been that exclusion should be based on behaviour and safety concerns based on the individual, rather than their trans status.

          In my opinion, the concept of it being all or none is a contrivance to exclude all.

          • Molly

            "I seem to recall that my position has consistently been that exclusion should be based on behaviour and safety concerns based on the individual, rather than their trans status."

            Well, using that logic, any and all male prisoners could be thusly sorted and put into the women's prison estate, because the reason for segregation is based on physicality and the superior strength of the male body.

            If your 'basis' is proven not to be accurate, the only harm will be embarrassment for prison management, no?

            • McFlock

              Again, logic based upon a case-by-case assessment cannot necessarily mean that "any and all" members of a group of people will meet the criteria applied by that logic.

              Also, I'm not sure your "because" is accurate.

              But to get back to the twitterer's argument, if the serial killing woman wanting to access a womens' space was not a transwoman but was a violent offender who posed a serious risk to the other women in the area, would you give her "a pass"? I wouldn't.

              • Molly

                Again, logic based upon a case-by-case assessment cannot necessarily mean that "any and all" members of a group of people will meet the criteria applied by that logic.

                Strange, that when you allow categories to be blurred arbitrarily (remember, self-id is all that's required) – you essentially end up with no categories

                Also, I'm not sure your "because" is accurate.

                I'm pretty sure your 'case by case' won't be.

                • Molly

                  IIRC, Puckish Rogue has first hand knowledge of 'inaccuracy' in our prison estate. Could be wrong in my recollection, though.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Fun fact: trans 'women' generally get wanded (hand held metal detector) instead of being rubbed down.

                    This is because male officers are not allowed to rub down women (obviously), only women can, however most female officers aren't always keen on rubbing down trans 'women'

                    Never come across a trans 'man' though

            • Molly

              Geez, I forgot.

              Some incarcerated women might also be affected too.

              (So easy to do.)

              • McFlock

                Especially if one doesn't regard some of them as women.

                • Molly

                  McFlock, Transwomen are not women. They are men. I don't subscribe to your redefinition of the word. But despite that, I believe we can have this conversation beyond that disagreement.

                  Consider the reason that there are separate men's and women's prison estates in the first place.

                  They are categories based on biological sex.

                  Men have bodies that are bigger, stronger and men are often incarcerated for more violent crimes than women.

                  Transwomen are men. They may or may not be in for violent crimes but their strength and body physicality remains. Self-id into an identity means that absolutely no changes now need to be made to claim to be a woman.

                  They may be vulnerable to violent men in the prison estate. They may also be the violent men in the prison estate.

                  Other vulnerable male prisoners exist. For example, they may be a shorter, weaker man with no gender identity. Or they may be autistic, have limited mental capacity, FASD, mental health issues or have physical disabilities.

                  The men's prison estate needs to find some way to ensure that all these men are kept safe.

                  Women’s prisons are not the escape route for male prisoners and prison management from dealing with this issue of violence and vulnerability in male prisons.

                  • McFlock

                    What about the women who are not transwomen? Do any of them pose a risk to other women, in prison or any other womens' space?

                    What about transmen?

                    As soon as one looks at the issue beyond a binary, everything changes. Which means I don't share your belief that there can be much in the way of constructive discussion with such a fundamental disagreement as the foundation for our respective positions.

                    I was just taken aback that a GCF tweet that "nails it" had to focus on individual behaviour to justify exclusion a group of people on the basis of something that was not down to individual behaviour.

                    Almost nobody would disagree that someone with a clear history of victimising some people should be excluded from an area catering specifically to the needs of their victims. Trans status has as little bearing on that as ethnicity or religion.

                    • Molly

                      "What about the women who are not transwomen? Do any of them pose a risk to other women, in prison or any other womens' space?

                      What about transmen?"

                      Yes, there will always be the possibility of violence in a prison estate. But the disparity between men and women's bodies was the reason for the distinction in the first place.

                      That disparity remains. Male bodies have physical advantage over female bodies and damage can be done. Transmen are women. They belong in the women's estate.

                      "As soon as one looks at the issue beyond a binary, everything changes. Which means I don't share your belief that there can be much in the way of constructive discussion with such a fundamental disagreement as the foundation for our respective positions."

                      I have always believed 'beyond a binary' for identity purposes, and would support anyone's self exploration. But I don't conflate that exploration with a disregard for the material reality of biological sex, and its impact on lives.

                      Perhaps we will not agree. You seem to believe that transwomen are not only a special subset of men, but they are also one that is superior any other subset of men that is vulnerable to violence. And definitely has the right to override incarcerated women's right to be separated from men.

                      This a particularly special class of people you advocate for.
                      Are you sure they should be in prison at all?

                      "I was just taken aback that a GCF tweet that "nails it" had to focus on individual behaviour to justify exclusion a group of people on the basis of something that was not down to individual behaviour."

                      Were you really? Because we are hearing many times, that women no longer have a right to single sex spaces, and there is no conflict between giving men the ability to access those spaces, and women wanting to retain them. Of course, some GCF's are going to highlight when it is apparent that there is a conflict. It is also not likely a group of transwomen will get together to stage a group event, so it will always be an individual case.

                      "Almost nobody would disagree that someone with a clear history of victimising some people should be excluded from an area catering specifically to the needs of their victims. Trans status has as little bearing on that as ethnicity or religion."

                      This sounds inconsistent, but maybe it's just vague.

                      I'm not vague. I see you ignore referring to other 'vulnerable' male prisoners in the male prison estate.

                      It's a problem for the male prison estate to fix.

                    • Sabine

                      Women – Adult human females, incarcerated in the female estate are exactly where they are supposed to be and can be looked after by corrections officers. They will have rules and regulations how to deal with various different offenders locked up in the same place.

                      Transwomen – Adult human males – who present as female (some more some less) irrespective of their crimes should be locked up in the male estate. They should be kept safe there, safe from rape, safe from any physical harm and they should be able to finish their sentence as anyone else. This again, is the job of the corrections officers, the ministry that sets the rules and any body that oversees that these rules are enforced.

                      As for the Transwomen who want to escape male violence by demanding a transfer to the female estate, or who just want to change in rooms for womens, or use bathrooms because men make them feel uncomfortable, they might need to consider that Self ID will allow these same men to self ID into the female estate, toilets, changing rooms, literally anywhere where women are and thus again, Transwomen are not safe. Go figure. But then, i have said it to you before and i say it again, Transwomen will have exactly the same rights as Women do in this boondoogle of idiocy, namely none. The men that they are afraid of will simply follow them. And women the world over know this and thus insist in single sex spaces. Cause male violence.

                      In the meantime, this "Transwoman" here gets to go and spend his last days on earth in a female prison after having spend a life time in prison for murdering women, the last one just recently. He has issues with women, as per his own words. Well at least with his age the they won't have to give out to many condoms to the women prisoners who risk getting inseminated by some opportunistic men who masquerade as 'transwomen'. Because at the end of the day, anyone and anything can declare themselves a transwomen – for a day an hour or a week, thus the word literally has no more meaning.


                      An 83-year-old transgender woman is now in custody for allegedly killing a woman whose dismembered body was found in Brooklyn.

                      Harvey Marcelin, who was previously convicted for killing two other women, was arrested in connection with the death of a 68-year-old woman, NBC New York reports. The victim had been staying at a Clinton Hill LGBTQ shelter, according to the outlet.

                      Maybe the issue is not women or transwomen, maybe the issue is male violence against those that these male feel/perceive as inferior or weaker. So maybe instead of telling women to accommodate men into their spaces – well force them to accommodate men into their spaces by law, men should finally find some courage and challenge the members of their own sex when it comes to sex based violence and just violence in general and practice a bit of kindness.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Funny story time (at least I thought it was)

                      I was doing a morning shift (0600 – 1400 as it used to be) at Chch womens and they had me doing the unlock in the segregation unit (unlock being exactly what it sounds like)

                      I opened one of the cell doors and being a 6ft male when I open the door the women are generally shorter (not always of course but usually) well in this case I had to look slightly up and what did I see…

                      A trans 'women' that was a little taller than myself, more heavily built than myself, outstanding breasts (kudos to the plastic surgeon) and looking not unlike this 'woman':

                    • McFlock


                      I guess we're just on completely different wavelengths.

                      I just agree with the original tweet: exclusion should be primarily based on behaviour, not what junk I think they were born with.

                    • Molly


                      That's a fairly good visual for people to contemplate. If the sight of a transwoman that size gave you pause, I'm guessing the visceral reaction of women prisoners was similar – but amplified.

                      That video is a clear indication of male energy. I'm not saying that women don't lose the plot, but it is a familiar male intimidatory tactic. The volatile nature of it, and the frozen stances of everyone around.

                      But I'm sure that I'm telling you nothing you don't already know.

                    • Molly


                      Of course we will disagree.

                      1. You ignore the basic reason why there were men's and women's prison estates in the first place.

                      2. You believe in a special class of vulnerability that requires special treatment, that ignores other vulnerabilities and impacts on women.

                      I'm all good with ending this conversation. We've both had the opportunity to state our positions, and to be honest, I'm pretty much writing for those who are still considering where they stand, or looking to accommodate other perspectives to ensure their position is defendable.

                      (I do think the clarity in language has made this discussion much easier.)

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I would be quite happy to never go into a womens prison again.

                      Women in prison are louder than men, more in your face, they hold grudges more, they're prone to making accusations, it s quite an assault on your senses

                      Then you think about their lives and what they've been through to get to prison and thats the cherry on the top

                    • McFlock

                      1: your "reason" is an assumption.

                      2: Nope.

                    • Molly

                      @Sabine. Well laid out comment that said everything I failed to say.

                      I agree.

          • weka

            I seem to recall that my position has consistently been that exclusion should be based on behaviour and safety concerns based on the individual, rather than their trans status.

            Yes. The GCF position is to exclude all men from women's prisons. Because case by case based on behaviour and safety concerns basically says that women can be collateral damage to men's needs. We have female only spaces for really good reasons, which are currently being overridden to make life easier for TW at the expense of women (quite the ideological leap for the left there).

            Trans women prisoner's needs can be dealt with in other ways rather than putting women at risk.

            • Puckish Rogue

              So yeah there ways. We basically have general, voluntary segregation and directed segregation

              The issue is, mostly, one of manning.

              Its easy enough to deal with one or two. One of the trans 'women' I had dealings with at womens wasn't a problem, just had to make sure they had their shower time before general unlock and she actually wasn't bad to deal with

              The problem is if its more than a few then you'd have to open up a wing for them. You open up a wing then you have to man it, organise shifts for it, new med rounds etc etc

              So you have the same number of prisoners but because they're in more wings (or wards) you have to have more officers and more struggling at the moment big time (front line officers can't work from home)

              Currently Spring Hill is asking for officers from other sites just so it can function, that doesn't mean full staff, just that it can keep going without locking everyone down

              Otago is down to like 50% staff

              Mt Eden is always low and Auckland is struggling (a lot of covid cases)

              The staffing levels in prisons are a joke at the best of times and now the chickens are coming home to roost.

              Once covid really takes off it'll be interesting seeing what happens.

              Rolling unlocks for the win!

    • Muttonbird 18.3

      Gender activists of all sides would do a lot better if they didn’t insist on using acronyms.

      No-one knows what they are banging on about most of the time.

      • Molly 18.3.1

        Yeah, it's the acronyms that's the problem…

        Not the re-definitions of sex, gender, woman, man, male, female, girl, boy, lesbian, gay, queer, 'literal violence', 'erasing existence' etc.

        • Muttonbird

          Seriously, it reads like industry jargon. If you want people on board your crusade, try not excluding them with hard to access speech.

          • weka

            are you on twitter? Short form demands quite a few accommodations around language.

          • Molly

            If you want people on board your crusade, try not excluding them with hard to access speech.

            It's not me, I pedantically define acronyms.. I usually right-click Google when I'm ignorant, or read more. I'd elucidate, but it's not an acronym I'd use now, so I'll let you have that journey of discovery.

            Unless you want to give your definitions for:

            sex, gender, woman, man, male, female, girl, boy, lesbian, gay, queer

            Then quid pro quo.

            • ghostwhowalksnz

              Heres one that doesnt need re-defining


              • weka

                that one especially needs a solid definition, because it gets used so broadly now that it's becoming meaningless.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  Hardly This is a very structured and technical view on what Transphobia means from gender Minorities Aotearoa


                  1) Stereotypes


                  3) Discrimination

                  For some people they exhibit all 3 but some may only exhibit the last one . Discrimination

                  • weka

                    Sure, pretty standard social justice analysis. You should tell the gender identity activists about that who are using the term indiscriminantly.

                    (and, that definition is still quite broad, and how they specifics play out when there is a conflict of rights is contentious).

                  • Molly

                    Your link is the expected cop out, but I'll discuss further on down.

                    (For a brief moment I thought you'd lift your game.)

                    But as I said, quid pro quo:

                    sex – biological sex,

                    gender – refers to the social structures based around sex

                    (not the same as gender identity, or sex but often used in that way, to distinguish I use gender identity when referring to gender identity)

                    woman – adult human female

                    man – adult human male

                    male – the sex that produces gametes,

                    female – the sex that produces eggs (ovum) and bears young,

                    girl – juvenile human female,

                    boy – juvenile human male,

                    lesbian – woman that is same sex attracted,

                    gay – man that is same sex attracted,

                    queer – perjorative used in regards to gays and lesbians.

                    It is apparent to me that the redefinitions of basic words has a cumulative effect when those words are also required for definitions of other nouns. See 'lesbian' for example.

                    Your link has really nothing to say on the first two items:

                    Stereotypes and Prejudice but has the following to say on Discrimination:

                    "Discrimination is the actions (including failure to act) based on prejudice.

                    This can include interpersonal discrimination in one’s private life, e.g. social exclusion, bullying and harassment, physical and sexual violence.

                    It can also include discrimination in public areas of life, e.g. exclusion from human rights protections, exclusion from other legal rights, exclusion from or discrimination in housing, healthcare, the justice system, accessing goods and services, recreation and sport, education, employment, etc.

                    Examples include: requiring medical interventions in order to gain an accurate birth certificate, landlords refusing to rent to trans tenants, inadequate access to appropriate healthcare services, schools or employers not taking action to keep students or employees safe.

                    67% of trans people report experiencing high levels of discrimination in NZ, 44% experienced this in the past 12 months (vs 17% of the general population)."

                    And here is when the problem with redefinitions comes into play:

                    "requiring medical interventions in order to gain an accurate birth certificate"

                    Surely, an accurate birth certificate would retain the biological sex marker and ADD the gender identity?

                    "inadequate access to appropriate healthcare services"

                    What does this mean? Given the state of the health system, with many patients waiting months or until they die for proper diagnosis and treatment, how do you distinguish between discrimination and an overwhelmed public health system?

                    "schools or employers not taking action to keep students or employees safe."

                    What does safe mean here? Is it personal safety? – or – as I suspect – a workplace that is required to compel others to treat particular individuals in distinctly proscribed ways?

                    I can't really be bothered with the landlords one, unless there was a definitive study of landlords refusing transgender people with jobs and money for the trans of it. Many NZers are unable to secure housing at present. In this they are probably experiencing the opposite of discrimination, they are finding it impossible – just like everyone else.

                    "67% of trans people report experiencing high levels of discrimination in NZ, 44% experienced this in the past 12 months (vs 17% of the general population)."

                    Yes. I'm fairly sure I looked at some of these surveys. Given that misgendering is often referred to as 'literal violence', the bar for discrimination is fairly low and flexible.

                    Luckily, your oh-so-informative link provides two examples of discrimination:

                    ”I want to stop trans women from using women’s bathrooms”

                    This is where we run across the language problem once again. I am one of those who want to stop men from using women's bathrooms.

                    ”Trans people should be sterilized to change their birth certificate”.

                    Well, I've never heard that said by anyone other than … well, this site really. In all my immersion on this topic, this is the first time. Something new.

                    Birth certificates should accurately record birth – and biological sex. The reason given by legislative review for allowing the biological sex marker to be changed in the first place, was that the number of people wishing to make this change was so small it would not make any significant data and statistical changes, and it was specifically related to gender reassignment surgery. As we both know, both the definitions (again!) of gender identity is different from the transsexuals this process catered for. With the increase in both gender identities and populations the original justification, no longer holds.

                    I have no problem with either: an additional gender identity field, or a specific official documentation that records identity, and have no wish to see anyone undergo unnecessary surgery.

                    Still it makes it clear that you personally, can't define transphobia OR despite implying by your comment that I display it – can't provide any evidence.

                    • ghostwhowalksnz

                      Usual transphobic rants . beyond any reasoning.

                      'Special reasons' like those you mention were used to discriminate against black people , even to the extent of lynching.

                      Hygiene, safety and so on, 'protection of women'. So you are just purposing old memes. Its not even worth replying to your pent up transphobia

                    • Molly


                      "Special reasons' like those you mention were used to discriminate against black people , even to the extent of lynching.

                      Hygiene, safety and so on, 'protection of women'. So you are just purposing old memes. Its not even worth replying to your pent up transphobia"


                      You are not even referencing anything I said. Hard to counter your invented conversation with imaginary me. (This is starting to become a habit.) I'll wait to see what she has to say for herself.

                      "Usual transphobic rants . beyond any reasoning"

                      Guessing we also have different definitions of 'rant' and 'reason'.

                      The list grows longer.

                  • felix

                    Thing is ghostie, to make any coherent use of a word like "transphobia", you'd first have to have a stable, non-circular, functional definition for the word "transgender".

                    And you don't, because to do so you'd first have to have a stable, non-circular, functional definition for the word "gender".

                    And you don't.

                    • ghostwhowalksnz

                      I leave that sort of thing up to gender minorities NZ and the medical experts

                      Take it up with them , thats if they can stop laughing at the absurdity of your 'circularity'

                      They can give very concrete examples for your OED type search for perfect definitions of people lives. A friend tells the story of a DHB clinic for people with major mental illness which by coincidence shares a break room with another clinic for late teens with different health issues – like cutting themselves. A general chat with a young woman , who dressed like a man led to a conclusion that others peoples definitions of what they/them should be in gender led to some serious inner turmoil

                    • Molly


                      Self-diagnosis is a part of – not the whole of – a comprehensive diadnosis.

                      Coffee break yarn is a perspective.

              • Molly

                Have a crack.

                In this case I have a degree of interest in what you are going to come up with.

  19. Molly 19

    In respect of giving praise where praise is due, my partner's employer has just deposited $50 in all his employees accounts, and messaged them to fill their cars up while petrol prices are still (fairly) low.

    There are some good business owners out there.

    • Herodotus 19.1

      Good on them. Just found that cueueing at the petrol station brought back memories of normal Auckland motorway congestion on a Friday commute trip home. Traffic is banking up down roads taking lanes out of action, memories of budget nights past when buying petrol and ciggies was a must.

      Our local supermarket has no trollies, as the traffic for their discount stations is so heavy that trolly "people/boys" cannot safely collect these or are forced to take on a few at a time as there is no room to manoeuvre the trains of trolleys.

    • weka 19.2

      nice story to hear, thanks Molly.

      • Molly 19.2.1


        We're fortunate in his employment. A really considerate boss in a long-standing family owned business.

        • Grafton Gully

          "a long-standing family owned business" that remains private when it could go public, potentially growing and adding to our country's wealth as a successful (and more widely accountable) public company.

          "Being a public company means having to abide by much stricter rules and regulations in comparison to private companies. The reason why public companies are willing to do this is because being able to raise money from the public is extremely valuable. Some advantages of listing as a public company include:

          • being able to raise a large amount of cash very quickly in order to finance the growth or expansion of the business;
          • increased exposure for your brand and business through the listing process, including in the media and investment community;
          • getting a more objective valuation for your company; and
          • increasing the liquidity of your company’s shares by letting them trade on a ‘liquid’ market, e.g. where others can buy and sell them easily."


          • Molly

            I'm sure that a board of directors would value the team as it is valued at present.

            No. I am wrong, I rescind that statement.

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            The lines are far more blurred.

            Stock exchange listing seems to be what you mean as a 'public ( listed) company' and its mostly the SX itself that imposes the rules.

            many way for 'private companies' to raise money nowdays including selling shares in the business – which isnt uinique to the listed SX companies

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