Open Mike 11/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 11th, 2018 - 259 comments
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259 comments on “Open Mike 11/09/2018”

  1. Ed 1

    17 years ago this happened.
    There is still no plausible explanation.
    9/11 changed the world.
    It gave the U.S. military industrial complex a reason to wage permanent war.
    It gave the U.S. political establishment the excuse to rip up civil rights in the U.S.
    It changed the world.
    And we are expected to believe a fantasy story.

    • Ed 1.1

      If you are interested in an independent investigation, this Italian film does a good job.

      As it says on IMDB, “ZERO has one central thesis: the official version of the events surrounding 9/11 can not be true.
      In the words of the Italian daily newspaper, Il Corriere de da Sera, “What results is a sequence of contradictions, gaps, and omissions of stunning gravity.” The importance of this film can not be overstated, if its thesis is correct, the justification for declaring the war on terror is built on a series of outrageous lies.”

      • corodale 1.1.1

        Dude, that is a slow bit romantic. I’ll have a dig, see if I can find a more info dense version that covers the detail on who and why. I saw a good fresh one just last week, got to at least 1,500,000 views before it was removed from youtube.

        New Pearl Harbour is an old one but a good one. 6hours of info dense detail, including corruption of military response.

        • Dukeofurl 1.1.1.1

          Do you know that the number of views of Youtube can be faked, same goes for twitter follower numbers.

          Oh this interesting story this morning

          “On Monday afternoon, four moderate earthquakes were recorded on Geonet’s monitoring website and people throughout New Zealand reported feeling the shaking
          ‘But those four quakes never happened. They were what are known as “ghost quakes”.
          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106971879/earthquakes-jolt-central-new-zealand

          First rule of evidence , never just rely on what people say they saw/felt/remembered.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.2

      Of course the official story is not true.

      http://behindthegalleycurtain.com

      Join and get intelligent discussion. Lots of ex airline employees in there.

    • gsays 1.3

      Things a bit quiet for you Ed?
      Thought you would kick off Tuesday with a stoush?

      I agree things don’t add up.
      Officially soft furnishings ablaze were were the cause of Tower 7 to fall.

      A plea folks: if you can’t add to the discussion in a civil way (be kind), try ignoring it.

    • mauī 1.4

      Kia ora Ed.

      • Ed 1.4.1

        Again. as ever, than you for your support.

      • cleangreen 1.4.2

        Ed 100%

        Yes the explosions were heard and reported by many.

        So the CIA had to hide something that was lurking under that building.

        So it was blown up during the two towers being attacked by terrorists in case they found some evidence of CIA activities always being hidden under the building..

    • marty mars 1.5

      I’ve got an uncontrollable urge

      • gsays 1.5.1

        Great restraint thanks Marty.
        Just leave us to our devices and walk on by.

        • marty mars 1.5.1.1

          I trying, really trying 🙂

          Luckily just finishing work – so home to homeschool now and forget this stuff.

          • greywarshark 1.5.1.1.1

            Has someone come up with a term for the September 2011 Twin Towers event like the one for mentioning Nazis and Hitler – I think they called it Godwins Law? How come it keeps showing up? Is Ed a troll? Or just hyper-active?

    • Dukeofurl 1.6

      Oh dear…people believe the most amazing things ..because they are on Youtube.

      • gsays 1.6.1

        …and the subject of many movies, grassroots movements and fall into a pattern of false terror events involving the USA before it goes to war.
        Gulf of Tonkin, Lusitania sinking….

        Weapons of mass destruction ring a bell Duke?

        • Dukeofurl 1.6.1.1

          Osama bin laden claimed responsibility didnt he.
          Saddam said he didnt have WMD and the UN group backed that up.

          Whats there to explain…. yeah right airline employees say buildings dont collapse like that ..or something.

          • Peter chch 1.6.1.1.1

            I wonder if they have added ‘Hate and blame everything on the USA’ Phobia to DSM-V yet?

          • gsays 1.6.1.1.2

            i have no intention of convincing you of anything duke.

            in regards to wmd, the UN’s position didn’t stop the USA military industrial complex going to ‘war’.
            almost as if going to war was a fait accompli…

            in regards to you tube, it didn’t start till 2005, and in 2009 was described as: “Providing a safe home for piano-playing cats, celeb goof-ups, and overzealous lip-synchers since 2005.” by entertainment weekly.

            not bad to generate an opposition to the official line of the most significant event of the 21st century 8 years after the event.

  2. millsy 2

    Will National include the outlawing of trade unions membership in their 2020 manifesto, along with at will employment and the removal of paid holidays and sick leave? I think that they are gearing up to do that.

    • Antoine 2.1

      No of course not, that is ridiculous. Know your enemy!

      A.

    • Wayne 2.2

      Millsy

      Is it April 1 today?

      There is not the slightest indication (or inclination) that National is going to do any of those things.

      • Dukeofurl 2.2.1

        National has made a fine art of never indicating most of what it will do.

        Their supporters are so guillible, I remember being amazed that some even believe Bill English’s ‘surpluses were stashed away’ like a 12 year old would do with a piggy bank.
        On cash basis Bill never borrowed less than $6 bill per year in the good years and left the country with $80-90 bill of debt and no plan to pay it back.

        • Dukeofurl 2.2.1.1

          Reminds me national NEVER announced the Big State House sell before the election in 2014 either.
          It was only announced in the days after the results came in and they were sure of a win.

      • Sabine 2.2.2

        like No tax increases, but hey GST ain’t a tax, right? Right?

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    “A new wave of left-leaning Democrats are waging a war on the party’s corporate wing” https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/trump-neoliberal-democratic-party-america

    “Even in deep blue Rhode Island – where Democrats are so dominant the 113 member legislature has only 17 Republicans – then-treasurer Gina Raimondo and her fellow Democrats chose to stake their brand on a plan that eviscerated retirement benefits for teachers, firefighters, cops and other public sector workers.”

    • Dennis Frank 3.1

      Democrats are traditionally corrupt. “Here in Colorado, where Democrats have been winning elections, the party machine joined with Republicans in 2016 to help the insurance industry crush a universal healthcare ballot measure. At the same time, the administration of Democratic governor John Hickenlooper – a 2020 presidential hopeful – has threatened to sue local communities that try to regulate fossil fuel development.”

      “And now in 2018 – as climate-change-intensified wildfires torch the state – top Democrats are breaking with the party’s grassroots activists and uniting with Republicans to allow oil and gas companies to frack and drill near schools, hospitals and residential neighborhoods. Democratic leaders have taken up that cause even after a series of deadly explosions near oil and gas sites outside Denver”

      • Ed 3.1.1

        The US, in all but name, is a corporatocracy.
        A country run for corporations.

        Since Douglas sold NZ down the river, we have been keen followers.

        • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1

          True, but let’s hope for a Sandernista revolution in the mid-terms. Good on you for the 9/11 revisit, I’ll check it out later (have long seen the official story as total crap).

          • Ed 3.1.1.1.1

            The Zero film is excellent.
            If Corbyn can effect real change in the UK, maybe our Labour government will also abandon the neoliberal cult.

          • Andre 3.1.1.1.2

            Dennis, I’ll bother with this since you seem to be capable of rational thought.

            Since WTC7, there have been at least a couple of other high-rise building collapses due to fire alone, that show the features cited by 9/11 troofers as ‘proof’ of some nefarious inside job fuckery. There’s the Plasco building in Teheran, which was steel-framed, and the Almeida building in Sao Paulo which is concrete framed and therefore inherently more fire resistant than steel. I recommend reviewing information and videos about those two collapses when assessing the credibility of claims about WTC7.

            I’m an engineer, and although I haven’t worked on buildings, a significant part of my career has dealt with highly loaded multi-member structures, material properties at low, room, and high temperatures. With that background, I find the NIST report dealing with the WTC7 collapse completely credible with its highlighting of oddities in the structural design coupled with the geometric changes from thermal expansions leading to the collapse. In contrast, the scattershot allegations of the troofers completely lack credibility on closer examination.

            • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.2.1

              It’s important to be dispassionate in any critique, examine the situation from all sides. My scepticism re the official story derived initially from a long interview on one of our current affairs tv shows a couple of years later, with a US buildings demolition professional. He recognised the signature while watching the collapses live. Said so.

              I suspect, Andre, that you may not have seen that interview. He was touring the world specifically to provide his expert knowledge of the engineering dimension of controlled building demolition to help everyone see that there’s a viable alternative explanation. Plane impact alone is insufficient to explain the collapses. Any engineer involved in building skyscrapers knows that designing to withstand such impacts is part of the plan.

              I’ve seen the written statement by the one who had the job of incorporating that design requirement into his construction of the WTC, recall reading his assurance that it was designed and built to absorb such impacts without collapsing.

              • Andre

                It would be interesting to get that same expert to comment on the Plasco and Almeida collapses. Which happened in 2017 and 2018 respectively, long after those interviews and statements. And show the features cited as ‘evidence’ of controlled demolition of the WTC towers.

                WTC1 and WTC2 did not collapse due to plane impact alone. They both stood for roughly an hour after the plane impacts, with severe fires. They both therefore had the combination of some structural damage which increases the loading on the surviving structural members, coupled with an intense fire in exactly the same location as that structural damage.

                • Dennis Frank

                  Yes, I understand the weakening & delay aspect. Are you aware of the evidence of thermite found later in the basement?

                  • Andre

                    I’m aware of claims of “nano-thermite” and other weird shit. I have yet to see any credible evidence that doesn’t have a much more plausible and mundane explanation. Feel free to link to any such evidence.

                  • Dukeofurl

                    Evidence….?
                    Dont you mean speculation

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Nope. Actual evidence found via normal detection methods. Years ago, don’t recall which source or other details…

                    • gsays

                      footage of pulverised concrete, and tiny fragments of steel is my recollection.

                      would posting a link serve a purpose?

                    • Dukeofurl

                      of course you dont recall Dennis…. it was only a minor detail wasnt it..

                      Its one thing to think the established view lacks credibility…. its completely different to then create another scenario that has the barely remembered flimsiest details.

            • corodale 3.1.1.1.2.2

              Dude, If you watch the video he posted you will see it’s for real.
              This one a bit old, too long, endless detail: September 11 — The New Pearl Harbor (FULL)
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DOnAn_PX6M
              More recent videos show impressive detail on the companies, money transactions and people responsable.., but they have censored, I can’t find them at the mo.

              • Andre

                Just remember the chemtrails tanks would have been mostly full too. You know how hot that shit burns?

                • gsays

                  Thanks for a gentle dissenting point of view.
                  I will look at the buildings you indicated.
                  Officially the line is soft furnishings for Tower 7’s demise.

                  • Andre

                    Until you’ve had to actually deal with the stresses, strength and stiffness losses, and shape changes caused by big temperature changes, it’s hard to appreciate what temperature changes can actually do to a structure. Even though I had been fully aware of what the numbers were for all those changes, it didn’t hit home for me how real and big the problems created could be until I was responsible for several cockups (fortunately minor). In my cases, the temperature changes involved were less than 150 degrees, not the 600 degree plus changes in a fire.

                    Another aspect that’s not widely understood is that many structures are not expected to survive extreme events and be in perfect usable condition afterwards. The performance criteria are around the structure surviving long enough for everyone inside to safely evacuate. In the case of WTC 1 and 2, most of the killed were trapped above the impact points by the fires, so arguably they met that expectation.

                    In the case of WTC7, “soft furnishings” is considerably understating how much fuel was available for the fire.

                    • gsays

                      All cool with “Another aspect that’s not widely understood is that many structures are not expected to survive extreme events and be in perfect usable condition afterwards”

                      ..usable condition.. is light years away from slumping into its footprint.

                      Often statements from either side of this topic are not mutually exclusive.
                      One of the jarring aspects of this to me is the same manner in which all 3 buildings ‘fell’.
                      When the other odd circumstances around the events are considered, things do not add up.
                      I don’t claim to know what happened and would fall into the LIHOP camp rather than the MIHOP.

                  • Andre

                    “… slumping into its footprint…” – review the Plasco and Almeida building collapses.

                    “… other odd circumstances around the events … ” – if you’re referring to intelligence failures around detecting the hijackers, the Bush administration failures to take warnings about al-Qaeda seriously and helping Saudi bigwigs scarper immediately after 9/11, I don’t have any special knowledge in those areas. I’ll just comment that cock-up and a desire to help some buddies seem much more likely to me than an American executive conspiracy to murder thousands of Americans in a manner that’s going to generate intense and highly emotional public scrutiny.

                    • gsays

                      yep, ” I’ll just comment that cock-up and a desire to help some buddies seem much more likely to me than an American executive conspiracy to murder thousands of Americans in a manner that’s going to generate intense and highly emotional public scrutiny.”

                      that, in essence, is the achilles heel in my opinion on this.

                      in weighing this up, for me, there is too much in the ‘cock-up’ side of things (the hole in the pentagon and an obliterated jet engine and unreleased security footage) to outweigh what you articulated above.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Yeah, Occam’s razor. A reasonable view. I ended up with a more complex one, tipped off by the dancing Israelis: a Mossad takeover of the Saudi operation.

                      You get that kind of stuff in the real world. Espionage history has featured it for yonks. Like sci-fi stories where the alien removes the brain of the human & replaces it or inserts an executive takeover module as implant. All it takes is a good double agent: someone who can front as Arab while employed by Mossad. Not hard.

                      You could dismiss the dancing Israelis as an urban legend nowadays but when I read the eyewitness accounts (think it was from NJ shore across the water watching a tower collapse) and found them confirmed by others, I took them seriously.

                    • McFlock

                      If it was a USGovt conspiracy, the Saudis wouldn’t have needed special passage in the first place – they wouldn’t have been in the country.

                    • Ed

                      Saudis

                      Michael Moore Backs Call to Re-Open Investigation of 9/11 Attacks

                    • McFlock

                      big deal.

                  • Andre

                    With the Pentagon plane, I’m acquainted with someone that claims to have seen the plane coming in low in a very odd place consistent with crashing into the Pentagon, then the smoke shortly thereafter. He’s not a close acquaintance, but he never gave me reason to think he was a bullshitter.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Did you ever see a photo of where the plane went into the Pentagon? I vaguely recall it looked wrong – as if the plane had somehow dropped its wings off before reaching the building. No aircraft debris whatsoever in the picture they released. On the left & right sides of the hole in the wall, no evidence of wing impacts. Most peculiar!

                    • Andre

                      @Dennis – apparently eyewitnesses closer than my acquaintance reported the plane hit the ground before hitting the building.

                      It’s hard to find any photos of the immediate aftermath before the part of the building above the main impact zone collapsed, but in the pics taken later with fire appliances and/or clean-up vehicles there still appears to be a mark to the left of the main impact zone consistent with a wing impact.

                      Remember that the only bits of an aircraft that are significantly substantial are the main landing gear/wing box structure, and to a lesser degree the nose landing gear and engine shafts. The rest of the fuselage, wings, and engines is mostly hollow space with little bits of thin weight-optimized lightweight metal.

                      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hunt-the-boeing/

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Excellent, thanks Andre. They’ve done a comprehensive rebuttal of all the points of scepticism. The extra reinforcing of the exterior wall would have been robust enough to deflect everything other than the body of the plane, and if the wings did fold back after the initial bounce then they could have gone in with the fuselage & burnt up.

                • marty mars

                  mate – kia kaha with this bullshit today

                  • Andre

                    I’m only interested in helping people that might still be rational avoid diving down the rabbit hole. I’m not interested in actually joining the tea party at the bottom. I keep reminding myself, who’s the bigger idiot: the ranting kook or the one trying to reason with it?

                    • Dukeofurl

                      Guess who shared your bizarre conspiracy views on the 9/11 celebrations Dennis
                      http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/11/23/the_long_strange_history_of_the_9_11_celebrations_meme.html

                      Donald Trump believes that the media owes him an apology for criticizing his claim that he saw “thousands and thousands of people” on television celebrating the destruction of the World Trade Center in Jersey City on 9/11.

                      Like all things that didnt happen ‘everyone’ remembers it differently

                      For Dennis its Israelis
                      For Trump it was Muslims

                      Dennis your official Trumpanzee T shirt is in the mail.

                    • Good luck – you can’t reason with this stuff – it really is a waste of time but good fun too. I miss travellerev – she had everything relating to this – epic battles with various over the years – now I just find the whole thing idiotic and boring.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Too lazy to read the text so you bullshit instead? Here you go: ” the “dancing Israelis.” During the attack, a New Jersey homemaker with a view of the twin towers called the police and the FBI after spotting a group of men who appeared to be filming the attack and exhibiting “puzzling behavior.” “They were like happy, you know … They didn’t look shocked to me,” the unnamed witness later recalled. The men were Israeli employees of a Jersey-based moving company and accounts at the time stated they had been on the roof of their company’s building, though it was later reported they were on the roof of their van. Either way, five Israeli men were later arrested and interrogated for several days before being deported back to Israel. As ABC reported the following year, the men were investigated by U.S. authorities for connections to Israeli intelligence, but nothing was ever proven.”

                    • McFlock

                      So, not “dancing” – just not as shocked by a terrorist attack as a NJ suburbanite would expect .

                    • Dukeofurl

                      Like those people who went onto Geonet this morning to ‘feel’ the earthquakes .
                      Seems reasonable enough until Geonet finds the next day they were Ghost quakes that didnt exist
                      ( Its an automated system which isnt completely accurate)

                      Rule of thumb. people think they saw/feel /remember the strangest things.
                      Even stranger when others take that as gospel and ‘proof’ of some other event.

            • Ed 3.1.1.1.2.3

              Loos like Plasco had explosives.

              • McFlock

                🙄

                probably nanothermite again /sarc

                • Ed

                  Explosions.
                  Do firefighters lie?

                  • McFlock

                    Sometimes. Sometimes they simply get things wrong. Sometimes they speak without precision. Sometimes they get mistranslated or taken out of context.

                    But 911 truthers will invent and exploit any of the above as pious frauds to support the unsubstantiated.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Yeah but don’t mistake me for one. Such generalisations as that don’t apply to people who have critical faculties and use them. The `dancing Israelis’ is just the tag the thing wears as an urban legend. I checked out the eyewitness accounts. Did you??

                      I didn’t continue with the dialogue at lunchtime because I’m not trying to convince you or the other guy. I’m just explaining the evidence I came across the caused me to doubt the official story. You don’t normally swallow any official story from any government, do you? You’ve got a good bullshit detector. I’m surprised you’ve swallowed this one. I’m neither a believer nor a non-believer, just someone who’s found good reasons to doubt the validity of the US govt line. If they lie about almost everything else, why would you automatically assume they tell the truth about this??

                      Anyway, another memory came up when I went for a walk down the beach: they were high-fiving each other, one of the eyewitnesses said, as they watched the collapse. Obviously any yank watching would think wtf? Very suspicious. Can you think of any other reason for doing high-fives than to celebrate an achievement?

                    • McFlock

                      But how do you know what or who you “checked out”? How do you know their memories were recent or accurate? In case you haven’t noticed, what people perceive the “other” group as doing tends to be highly inaccurate.

                      And what does it even matter if some people even do celebrate something bad happening? That in no way means they actually did it. A few Palestinians also celebrated it – so who was connected, the Israelis and the Palestinians?

                      My bullshit detector warbles shrilly around youtube clips that spend at least 90% of the time talking about fragmentary clips of interviews and the remainder showing the clip itself. And then interweb folk who say they partially remember things that they don’t necessarily have a source for, yeah there’s a “bullshit hazard” warning there, too. And when posters in discussions about one topic post irrelevancies – yeah, sounds like bullshit.

                      Compared to all of that, “20 guys, four planes” is the least bullshit explanation there is. Especially now we know that tall buildings on fire do indeed collapse without toppling sideways like a drunkard falling over, as Ed’s link happily demonstrated.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Yeah, I did check out the sourcing to establish that the original date of the eyewitness accounts were fresh. Later memories become increasingly unreliable (as you’re implying). You’re using Occam’s razor which is sensible. We only differ on this because I discovered good reasons to decide that it is insufficient to provide a full accounting of the twin towers collapse because I was curious to see if there were flaws in the conspiracy scenario. It turned out to be way more credible than I expected.

                      I remember that close-up of GWB’s reaction to his staffer whispering the news of the attacks in his ear, the non-reaction and continuance of reading from the picture book to the small children in the class. You can’t invent shit like that. I suppose you’ll be wanting to suggest that Michael Moore faked it. Yeah, right. Because he’s leftist?

                    • McFlock

                      “Non-reaction”?

                      So the deep state plans the attack, advises the president in advance, and decide that the best way for him to officially find out about it is for him to be told and do nothing except act casual?

                      That to you is more likely than someone unprepared to be a president in a time of crisis being told of a crisis while a bunch of cameras are on him?

                      I would have expected something closer to this. Some decent crisis acting, there.

                    • Ed

                      Remember we aren’t the ones who believe a conspiracy theory.
                      You are.
                      We choose to be skeptical about the conspiracy theory.

                      I also chose to be skeptical about Iraq and WMD.
                      Were you?

                      I also chose to be skeptical about Syria and chemical weapons.
                      Were you?

                    • McFlock

                      The thing is, assuming shenanigans because someone doesn’t react the way someone else expects them to react is a fool’s errand.

                      I saw tv footage of planes flying into buildings on the day.
                      I saw a building collapse after sustained fires resulting from those plane crashes.
                      I saw shitloads of big chunks of debris flying into nearby buildings after both events.

                      I’ve worked iron and steel like butter without actually melting it (you’re actually more likely to start it burning over a forge – that’s really impressive). I’ve seen aluminium melt into puddles over a naked flame. I’ve even watched thermite being used to weld rails.

                      So that’s why I don’t have too much problem with the Official Story(tm)

                    • McFlock

                      Remember we aren’t the ones who believe a conspiracy theory.

                      Yes, you are.
                      The conspiracy theory you believe in is that the US government, everyone on the 911 commission, and so on all conspired to cover up the true causes of building collapses, and decided to blame 20-odd jerks instead of the true cause (nutbar opinions vary on just who did what and how, however).

                      As for scepticism, I actually think I’m more sceptical about all the events you mention than you actually are. You hear the US or British version and assume the opposite must be true. I tend to go for the side that spreads the least bullshit. Sometimes it’s a narrow competition, admittedly. But while the invasion of Iraq smelled like bullshit at the time, Assad using chemical weapons and terrorists bringing down the twin towers… not so much smell, there. A bit in Syria, but Assad smells more.

                    • Ed

                      Fine.
                      We disagree.

                    • McFlock

                      well, duh.

                      You act like you’re exposing the man behind the curtain, and I think you’re actually just peeking up the dresses of several thousand dead bodies.

                    • Ed

                      Let readers decide whether the abuse you spray strengthens the case for the official story.
                      You do realise that many many experts question the official story?

                    • McFlock

                      Quite a small number compared to the rest of the experts in relevant fields who don’t see much of a problem with it.

                      But if you actually want to debate it, which bit(s) of the Official Story(tm) do you actually have a problem with?

                      Let’s start with the easy one: there were several buildings in New York City that collapsed (for any reason caused by any person or persons) on 9/11, right?

                    • Ed

                      I am only prepared to engage when you guarantee civility.

                    • McFlock

                      No, because that’s me guaranteeing that you won’t get offended by something I say.

                      And I’m not sure that’s possible, let alone likely.

                      All I’ll guarantee is that I’ll ask straight, serious questions as long as you answer them directly. And if you do the same, then I’ll try to answer those directly.

                • Ed

                  Sad you resort to insults rather than debate.

                  • McFlock

                    Dude, to preserve a fantasy about one tragedy you’ve latched onto a fantasy about another tragedy.

                    911 was a conspiracy: 20-odd dudes conspired to hijack four aircraft. It was followed by occasional incompetence and frequent cases of cynical opportunism (like the guy who tried to trademark 9/11 for use on “commemorative” junk on the day it happened), but the events were pretty much described in the cliffnotes. No “explosives”, no “free-fall speeds”, no “inside its own footprint”. Bad shit happened, and the immediate causes of that bad shit died when they flew planes into buildings.

                    Fucking deal with it.

                  • joe90

                    Dude, I’m not insulting you.

                    I’m sneering at your intractable fuckwittery.

                    • gsays

                      totally unnessary joe.
                      the sneering insulting tone is not needed and contributes nothing.
                      if you disagree scroll past.

                    • joe90

                      Nah, I’m not going to scroll past internet bedwetters who persist with the fantasy that folk who lost their lives in these tragedies were the victims of their own governments.

                      I’m going to contribute go fuck yourselves, in my most sneering, insulting tone.

                      Totally necessary, gsays.

                    • Ed

                      So having an opinion different to you gets that level of abuse.
                      Wow!

                      By the way, all I have said is I don’t believe the official narrative. I am an agnostic on 9/11. I think a proper inquiry should be held, not the farce that occurred.

                      It is you that is the fully fledged believer in a conspiracy. Yes, one told to us by a government.

                      Haven’t recent events made you remotely questioning of what governments tell you?

                • Ed

                  The US Is Empowering Nazis in Ukraine

                • greywarshark

                  Thanks joe 90
                  Crazy sprinkler lady is so great. But seriously, everyone is so suspicious now. Lack of trust, everyone is out to get me. I get that feeling too.

                  • Ed

                    Maybe events like Iraq and 9/11 made us suspicious.
                    If you trust the media and the establishment, more fool you.

      • Gabby 3.1.2

        Who’s the Chairman in Colorado franky?

  4. Jenny 4

    Is President Trump unimpeachable?

    The Israeli Zionists call it, “changing conditions on the ground”.

    After Donald Trump was elected President, Liberal commentators couldn’t understand it. Why was the President Trump still holding election type rallies? Doesn’t President Trump realise, that now the elections are over, he doesn’t need to hold these rallies anymore?

    And recently Liberal commentators have noted that whenever the President feels he is in trouble he calls what they dismissively call “comfort rallies”.

    But are they missing something?

    Is President Trump making himself unimpeachable by “changing conditions on the Ground”?

    Is President Trump galvanising his support base against any attempt to unseat him?.

    • Dukeofurl 4.1

      Trump is raising money with these rallies, well the private meetings not shown on TV are the ones for the big donors.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    New trans-gender thingy: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/09/british-parents-to-swap-genders.html “Louise and Charlie Draven, parents to five-year-old Star Cloud, are believed to be the country’s first “gender-fluid” family, the Daily Mail reports.”

    “Star has been teased at school because he doesn’t mind playing with dolls and painting his nails – not activities typically associated with boys. There have also been vicious comments left on social media”.

    “Some of the written comments were horrendous,” Charlie told the Mail. “One person wrote that we should kill Star Cloud, before he became a serial killer, committed suicide or killed us. Unbelievable how people could say such dreadful things about a four-year-old.”

    • marty mars 5.1

      why are you putting this up? are you looking to cause people to be hurt? you obviously have issues using the word “thingy” – why not be honest and put your view up rather than this sly posting?

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1

        Don’t be silly. It’s extremely interesting news! You haven’t heard of parents swapping genders before, have you? I bet it’s a first timer. Not nice to try & read nasty motives into people that aren’t there. I’ve never done that to you. They seem well-intentioned folk: “We’re just an ordinary family being who we want to be.” Dunno about ordinary since others will think they are probably the most unusual family on the face of the earth but I get what she/he means…

        • marty mars 5.1.1.1

          I just asked the question as you didn’t put any context up. Don’t blame me if your intentions get misconstrued.

        • Sabine 5.1.1.2

          honestly who the fuck cares?

          how really cares other then the heterosexual who believe they can’t be heterosexual if someone else is not.

          good fucking grief, let people live as they like too, let them find their sexuality that they like best, let them fuck – with full consent of all involved- as they like.

          It is not as if they are fucking up your bedroom.

          good fucking grief.

  6. Jenny 6

    Alex Jones at Infowars called on Trump supporters to mount a civil war against the “Liberal establishment” on July 4, if they tried to topple Trump as President.

    Liberals and democrats treated it as a big joke. And Yukked it up with “2nd Civil War letters”.

    BBC

    Jul 5, 2018 … Parody letters from a “second civil war” to topple Donald Trump flood Twitter on the Fourth of July….

    Washington Post

    However lighthearted, the #secondcivilwarletters do carry an extra layer of poignancy given a recent Cards Against Humanity poll that found about one-third of U.S. voters said they believed a second civil war would take place in the next decade….

    It should never be forgotten amongst all this guffawing, that Hitler was once considered a joke as well.

    Efforts to “topple Trump” are now being actualised, And Trump himself has spoken of violence if Republicans lose the midterms…..

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/28/donald-trump-midterms-private-meeting-church-antifa

  7. Ffloyd 7

    I hope Jacinda dosn’t spend too much time on Clare Curran’s resignation. I can’t see what all the fuss is about. Only she knows full circumstances and what can or cannot be revealed about Clares situation and if she doesn’t play ball with media it should be shut down as soon as possible. Refusal to keep on engaging in this now old happening should get the Nats rustling their tutus with indignant flouncing. Time to move on to real news.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 8.1

      The stress for this family…heart goes out to them.

    • AB 8.2

      Yes, very sad indeed.
      But as you are a right-winger I know you believe (or claim to believe) in “personal responsibility” which would include organising proper travel insurance. I also know that right wingers are concerned (or claim to be concerned) about the “moral hazard” of governments bailing out individuals from the consequences of their “bad decisions”.
      Or perhaps you don’t really believe in these principles at all, but have merely weaponised them as tools to attack the poor and defend privilege., and can quite happily overlook them if it serves your interests to do so?

      • Chris T 8.2.1

        Presuming you can judge my entire political and philosophical leanings from a few posts of mine you have read on here, and then making massive assumptions of my opinions

        Amazing

        Do you read palms as well?

      • gsays 8.2.2

        Perhaps right wingers are getting used to the public doing the right thing and paying up when insurance companies go absent.

        Christchurch quakes.
        Bailout SCF.
        2008 GCF.

        Privatise profit, socialise risk.

      • James 8.2.3

        Is this really a subject to be political about?

        It’s tragic what has happened. Best left alone by all.

    • marty mars 8.3

      Very sad RIP

      “Speaking on the AM Show on Tuesday morning, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was saddened to hear of Hartley’s death but stood by the Government’s decision.

      “I wish I was in a position to have helped, that’s fair to say.”

      Ardern said this was not an isolated case. There are 3000 people seeking MFAT help and 280 medical emergency cases, she said.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106976756/new-zealand-woman-abby-hartley-ill-in-bali-hospital-has-died

      I’m sorry but that is a small number of citizens who, no doubt, need help urgently. The Government COULD help easily. There is no precedent, there is no floodgates – it is basic caring for citizens. Shame on this government for sitting on their hands around this issue.

      • dV 8.3.1

        They had travel issuance, but the company refused cause of preexisting conditions.
        I for one would like to know the company who refused.
        It might of been fair enough, but I like to know more.

        • Cinny 8.3.1.1

          The insurance company should be named and shamed.

          Instead seymour would rather point the finger at the government. People like seymour who is politicizing a persons death for their own gain makes me sick.

          • Gosman 8.3.1.1.1

            You mean politicising people’s deaths like this?

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11913852

            “”This is what this election should be about. This is what we should be debating – do we have a tolerance for kids dying because our houses are in such a bad state? Do we tolerate this?” Ardern said.”

            • Cinny 8.3.1.1.1.1

              No Gosman, not like that.

              That is multiple deaths in our own country, totally different scenario.

              Re the lady dying in Bali….. a shoddy insurance company, which no one wants to name is to blame. Not the government.

              Didn’t simon brag he had raised the money for her to come home?

              Why aren’t the media/opposition etc going after the insurance company?

              • Gosman

                Translation: “It isn’t the same because I support the person making the claim and the policies that are being promoted as a result of politicising the deaths”.

              • Chuck

                “That is multiple deaths in our own country, totally different scenario.”

                So an NZer dying in another country is not the same? wow, that is cold.

                The family made the decision not to name the insurance company (if you look they have said why).

                • Cinny

                  If the government of the day isn’t doing enough, what do chuck and gossy do to help others?

                  As for me, I’ve an open home policy, and most of the kids in the neighbourhood come here to play, eat, have fun and be safe. No matter who the government is or who their parents vote for.

                  Yes it’s tragic what has happened, and if we’ve learnt anything from it, we’ve discovered to take thorough care when choosing medical insurance for off shore travel.

                  Deepest sympathies to the family.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.3.1.1.1.2

              Not the same.

              Some are politicizing this for their own, personal, gain.
              Other are trying to fix things for everyone.

          • James 8.3.1.1.2

            It is in pretty much every article on it – so I’m guessing you aren’t reading them.

            I really think that this is not a subject we should be political about. A lady has died – it’s not a point scoring game (not said necessarily to you cinny)

            • Dukeofurl 8.3.1.1.2.1

              The owners want it that way- as the advertisers are the people to please, and they let them know it.

              years ago I remember some newly retired/redundant ?newspaper guy talking about having to take all the calls every time the Telecom head PR person wasnt happy about ‘something they read’

            • Cinny 8.3.1.1.2.2

              Agree with you there James.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.3.1.1.2.3

              A lady has died – it’s not a point scoring game

              Obviously some think it is. Others want to find out what went wrong to prevent it happening again.

          • James Thrace 8.3.1.1.3

            Checkpoint named the insurer as covermore.

          • cleangreen 8.3.1.1.4

            100% Cinny,,

            I heard it may have been AA travel Insurance.

        • Kevin 8.3.1.2

          Did the company refuse a pre-existing condition, or was it not declared? I have only heard the latter in this case. All the travel insurance I have used in the past has covered pre-existing conditions but for a higher premium.

          • veutoviper 8.3.1.2.1

            I have only heard that the pre-existing condition was not declared, Kevin. This may be wrong, but if it isn’t, then … And if you have a pre-existing condition such as previous instances etc of twisted bowel, then you know about it and the risks.

      • Dukeofurl 8.3.2

        How many ordinary Kiwis could afford a ‘Bali 2nd Honeymoon’ for the whole family ?

      • Draco T Bastard 8.3.3

        I’m sorry but that is a small number of citizens who, no doubt, need help urgently. The Government COULD help easily.
        280 * 200,000 = $56,0000,0000

        That’s just to bring them home.

        • marty mars 8.3.3.1

          Good you agree.

        • McFlock 8.3.3.2

          And using the RNZAF 757 would be cheaper.

          • ankerawshark 8.3.3.2.1

            Just on this issue of this poor woman dying in Bali. My sympathies to the family.

            And in line with preventing it happening again, I have wondered about booking insurance, especially travel insurance on-line. It may be that it isn’t entirely clear about declaring a pre-existing condition (I seem to remember this being the case). When you are talking to a real person and they ask you the question directly it may clarify for some about pre-existing medical conditions.

            On a related note we had to bring our boy (young man) back from Malaysian after he was knocked unconscious and hospitalized. Long story and we did contact MFAT, but it became very clear there was very little they could offer (not a criticism as such). But we did get him home (it took five days to get him on a plane and it was one of the most stressful things I have ever been through). He didn’t have insurance. He would not have been counted in MFATs statistics I believe.

      • greywarshark 8.3.4

        FGS NZ can’t even afford to help ‘ordinary’ NZ citizens trying to have a life in NZ and people think we should find money so that people who suffer health problems overseas should get cosseted. Get real. Tourists who come here die because of our carelessness and we have trouble responding to that and have been criticised.

        People who can afford to travel overseas are taking a risk, that cannot be denied. There are various diseases to be vaccinated against but septicaemia and the like seems to be devastating. Bad things happen so be well insured. The country can’t offer medical treatment to all NZs overseas.

        This is very stark.
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/100079659/kiwi-recovering-from-flesheating-disease-nightmare
        A 2006 study revealed that numbers of Kiwis contracting the disease rose from fewer than 10 cases a year in 1990 to more than 70 cases a year in 2006.
        Of the 812 cases studied in that 20 year period, 148 people died – a 21 per cent fatality rate…

        Carina said she “cried rivers”, but couldn’t dwell on the negatives.
        She was the driving force being the whole ordeal, organising medical insurance, keeping the family informed, liaising with doctors and organising flights back to New Zealand and cancelling their prepaid trip to Bali during September….

        Finally, nearly a month after he arrived in Dubai, Sykes was flown back to New Zealand on a stretcher, hooked up to an IV, accompanied by his wife, a doctor and a nurse.
        Then it was straight into Middlemore Hospital in Auckland for another couple of weeks, where he had more surgeries to clean the wounds and multiple skin grafts to cover them.
        He is left with massive cosmetic scarring and faces with months, if not years, of rehabilitation.

        Lesson. Don’t skimp on the insurance!

        This is a recent case reported on Radionz. There is a risk of sudden death even in NZ.
        https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018660666/surviving-necrotising-fasciitis-the-flesh-eating-disease

    • Sanctuary 8.4

      I read that headline.

      The Herald’s Daily Mail style of unrelenting negativity does my head in sometimes.

      If Jacinda walked on water the Herald would ask why she thinks she shouldn’t swim like the rest of us.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.5

      She had contracted septicaemia, and her hospital bill was well over $100,000. Her insurance company refused to pay the bill, telling her family her illness related to a pre-existing condition.

      And there you have proof of the failure of for profit insurance. The profit is more important that a persons life.

      • McFlock 8.5.1

        Insurance companies are fucking arseholes – you take a bet that you might need them, they take a bet that they can weasel out of it if you do.

        • bwaghorn 8.5.1.1

          Funny that some as intelligent as your self can’t see that if someone doesn’t disclose an illness the insurance companies are well within their writes( fuck I hope that’s the write write ) to not cover them .

          • McFlock 8.5.1.1.1

            Wrong right you rote 🙂

            Thing about insurance companies though is that their reasons for declining are frequently highly arguable in court. In this case there wasn’t that much time to fuck around.

            So – good call by the company, they’re unlikely to be challenged on that decision now and they saved $160k. I’m not even being sarcastic: that’s how private insurance operates.

          • veutoviper 8.5.1.1.2

            At least you tried e hoa! Each to their own skills etc. I am good at spelling but probably would be a hopeless shepherd; I suspect you are the opposite.

            • bwaghorn 8.5.1.1.2.1

              I don’t mind the pedants to much after 20 years of barely writing a word when I started commenting here 4 years a go I needed a lot of sharpening up .

          • David Mac 8.5.1.1.3

            Yes, if non disclosure is not a reason for an insurance company to waive the cover we will all be paying mega premiums.

            Travel insurance is not very expensive for a healthy youthful traveller with no health issues. If it doesn’t matter if we do or don’t tick the ‘I have a heart condition’ box the youthful healthy traveller will be subsidising those travelling with an unfortunate cardiac history.

            I don’t think the 50 year guy that drives a safe modern unmodified car should be paying for the cover for an 18 year old that bolts on turbochargers and doubles the horsepower.

            I wouldn’t expect cover if I had my house on Bookabach, didn’t inform my insurer and a guest burns it down. Otherwise those that don’t have their house on Bookabach are subsidising my cover for my business activity.

            Abby’s situation raises a humanitarian question, I think it has little to do with the insurer she had a contract with. You and I had to do something about it. I feel we did, I’m proud of what we did. As I understand it, a Give a Little’ page raised about a quarter of a million dollars to help Abby out…I’m not sure why those $ didn’t lubricate a more favourable outcome.

            • In Vino 8.5.1.1.3.1

              Didn’t mean to pick upon you personally yesterday, bwaghorn. It was more the guys before you who kept going on about ‘righting’ in diaries.
              You just happened to trigger my comment by repeating their mistake.
              If they had not blundered on beforehand, I would never have picked on your comment.
              By the way, I usually enjoy reading your comments.

      • Kat 8.5.2

        You are correct, its all about the profit line. Best to bring your accountant, lawyer and doctor along before signing up to any blood sucking health insurance.

  8. Morrissey 9

    Lawless

    In 1986 the United States was found guilty in the International Criminal Court of terrorism against tiny Nicaragua. It has never forgiven the world for that. Trump is louder and more obnoxious than any other president, ever, but he’s firmly in the tradition of American lawlessness….

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/10/trump-administration-threatens-sanctions-against-international/

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1

      The US is the worlds largest, most powerful rogue nation. It’s been that way ever since it’s independence.

    • Dukeofurl 9.2

      Different Court.
      That was the International Court of Justice ICJ- which is the principal judicial court of the UN and established by UN Charter

      ICC or International Criminal Court is much more recent , since around 2002
      “The ICC claims the jurisdiction to prosecute individuals for the international crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. “

      • Professor Longhair 9.2.1

        Whichever court, if there were justice, every single U.S. president, sitting or former, would be in prison.

        • greywarshark 9.2.1.1

          Is that what you profess? It seems to me that you are a stirrer.. If you are going to write here I hope that you are going to have more substance than throwaway lines like that. Save yours for the pub where you can talk with your other learned mates.

          • Morrissey 9.2.1.1.1

            Every U.S. president has presided over, and even instigated, massive crimes all over the world. That’s not a controversial statement, my friend, as you will be perfectly aware.

            • Dukeofurl 9.2.1.1.1.1

              Thats why the US is so rarked about the new ICC.

              Its a Criminal court. The other ICJ is more of a ‘civil court’ and one they could ignore.

  9. Pat 10

    “While El Niño events normally occur every five-to-seven years, the recurrence of the event so close to the previous one, suggests that climate change may be having an impact.”

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/366159/el-nino-could-be-on-its-way

    • Dukeofurl 10.1

      Predicting an El Nino often doesnt turn out either

      “El Niños occur every three to five years but may come as frequently as every two years or as rarely as every seven years…
      Their strength can vary considerably between cycles. One of the strongest in recent decades was the El Niño that developed the winter of 1997-98. “Everyone associates the word El Niño with that event, but that was a rare, once-in-a-century event,”
      https://www.livescience.com/3650-el-nino.html

      • Pat 10.1.1

        as its related to increased sea temperature and is associated with drought on the east coast (which was considered responsible for NZs last recession) and extremes of weather generally any increase in frequency could hardly be considered a positive.

        • Dukeofurl 10.1.1.1

          There is no predictions of an increase in frequency just the next one may be 1 yr ‘sooner than average’
          As with anything to do with Climate you need something like the frequency over the last 25 years to say its been ‘increasing’
          If its just moving back and forwards its the other thing called the weather.

          • Pat 10.1.1.1.1

            a reasonably accurate sample period of around 100 years is responsible for the stated ‘increased frequency’….and ocean temp. is the ‘climatic’ driver of this particular weather event.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Niño

            • Dukeofurl 10.1.1.1.1.1

              No it isnt
              ‘may come as frequently as every two years or as rarely as every seven years…”

              Just the normal range. Like I said get the previous 25 years or so.
              NIWA says theres no real climate change footprint yet
              https://www.niwa.co.nz/our-science/climate/information-and-resources/clivar/elnino

              • Pat

                “The observed ENSO cycle seems to undergo multi-decadal changes: for example, the El Niño signal in global climate anomalies was quite weak between the World Wars, but strong since 1950 (Allan et al., 1996). Since 1976, El Niño events have also predominated over the opposite cold SST phase of La Niña, including the unprecedented long-running El Niño of 1990-1995. This multi-decadal variability adds another complication to interpreting climate model simulations: are future model changes a consequence of greenhouse forcing, or are they just a manifestation of model internal multi-decadal variability? Trenberth and Hoar (1996) generated long time series of the Southern Oscillation using a simple statistical model, and concluded that the extended El Niño of the early 1990s was so rare that anthropogenic greenhouse changes could be influencing ENSO occurrence. There is some support for this speculation from model experiments by Meehl and Washington (1996) who found that cloud feedbacks resulted in tropical Pacific SST increases that were greater east of the dateline than to the west. There were attendant shifts in large-scale precipitation patterns and mid-latitude circulation anomalies that resembled some aspects of El Niño events. However, Harrison and Larkin (1997) present an opposing viewpoint. Their analysis of the 1876-1996 Darwin sea level pressure record concludes that a long run like the 1990-1995 episode might be expected every 150-200 years at the 95% confidence level, and therefore favours natural variability rather than global warming as an explanation.”

                https://www.niwa.co.nz/our-science/climate/information-and-resources/clivar/models#interaction

                We’ll see

                • Dukeofurl

                  Its on one hand , but on the other too. I never like these long run statistical predictions, except when they are properly classified as ‘research’ rather than predicting physical events.
                  maybe in 15 years we could say that was the starting point to where they are now or it could be seen as a dead end and someone else made a breakthrough in some as complex as ENSO

                  Its probably more important to refine the knowledge about the intensity and length of the cycles .

          • cleangreen 10.1.1.1.2

            dukeofurl = climate denier extreme.

            • Dukeofurl 10.1.1.1.2.1

              Niwa say that climate change isn’t yet apparent in Enso varaiability.
              Yet cleangreen who runs an AstroTurf public broadcasting group – didn’t exist before the election- knows better than niwa.

              You will find be wrecking your every post you fraud

  10. Ankerrawshark 11

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/366131/lessons-to-be-learned-from-curran-controversy-ardern

    Re Floyd at 7 about Jacinda spending time on Curren…. I watched her press conference yesterday. As the press questioned her about did she regret how she handled Curren, she was imho stunning. Put it back on them “which part of it”.

    I am really sorry I let myself get hooked into some interchanges with James here yesterday that went nowhere. And I told him I thought he was a troll. James whatever you visit this site for that is up to you. I think there have been times when your contributions have been worthwhile. Quoting mike Hoskins however i find provocative and he is someone’s whose opinions I don’t respect. He has no special expertise, eg in leadership skills or a host of other topics he freely voices his opinions on. Oh course you are entitled to quote mike Hoskins, but my likely response is mike would say that wouldn’t he.

  11. Ankerrawshark 12

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/366131/lessons-to-be-learned-from-curran-controversy-ardern

    Re Floyd at 7 about Jacinda spending time on Curren…. I watched her press conference yesterday. As the press questioned her about did she regret how she handled Curren, she was imho stunning. Put it back on them “which part of it”.

    I am really sorry I let myself get hooked into some interchanges with James here yesterday that went nowhere. And I told him I thought he was a troll. James whatever you visit this site for that is up to you. I think there have been times when your contributions have been worthwhile. Quoting mike Hoskins however i find provocative and he is someone’s whose opinions I don’t respect. He has no special expertise, eg in leadership skills or a host of other topics he freely voices his opinions on. Oh course you are entitled to quote mike Hoskins, but my likely response is what is his expertise in this area? Right none. What he says is only relevant to helping the National party and their rich friends

    • chris73 12.1

      “eg in leadership skills or a host of other topics he freely voices his opinions on. Oh course you are entitled to quote mike Hoskins, but my likely response is what is his expertise in this area?”

      Jacinda Ardern doesn’t appear to have any leadership skills either but shes still the PM so why shouldn’t Mike Hosking even be allowed to talk about it? (Assuming he doesn’t have those skills which he may well do)

      • ankerawshark 12.1.1

        Chris 73 “Jacinda has no leadership skills” . I understand that is your opinion.

        Mike H is allowed to broadcast his opinion. I just think he is not a credible source.

  12. mikesh 13

    I see that idiot savant has been having a go at the government because he believes they will balk at introducing a capital gains tax:

    “Which invites the question of Labour: if you’re not going to fix this, what is the fucking point of you? This is supposed to be a core issue, what you stand for. But if you’re just going to sit there and do nothing about it, people might start to wonder whether there is any point to your being in government, or why they bothered to vote for you in the first place.” (No Right Turn 9/9/2018)

    One would have to ask “what is the fucking point of” a capital gains tax when the malfunctioning of the housing market is caused by such factors as:

    The deductibility of interest for tax purposes

    Excessive lending by the banks into the housing market, probably on money created from nothing

    The non taxation of imputed rent and

    Various supply side issues.

    A capital gains tax would address none of these problems, and although it could gain some tax revenue, it seems that this will be a long time coming.

    Incidentally, while some on the left have pushed for a capital gains tax, I don’t see this as as a “core” issue for labour .

    • SaveNZ 13.1

      I think people have had enough of more taxes… only reason Labour limped over the line last election was because they softened their stance on capital gains plus Jacinda was enough of a distraction for Labour not to alienate everyone with Nat Lite, more construction and welfare for construction is best, housing policy.

      If they want to put a micro transaction tax in, I’d be all for it though. Would also be ok with a stamp duty but think it might cost them an election if they wanted it.

      I’d also be more interested in a capital gains tax if it was only for business. AKA all those who have their housing/commercial property/farms/businesses in a corporation rather than individual names get to pay capital gains taxes. For a start it would create a reason to go back to transparency and people actually stand behind their assets with individual names and are transparent not hide them away through businesses and trusts.

      • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1

        I think people have had enough of more taxes…

        That’s because you’re listening to National’s spin doctors too much. It can be proved, quite conclusively, that we’re not actually paying enough taxes.

        Why do people think that we can get all government services for nothing?

      • SaveNZ 13.1.2

        I think they need to start to tax business and polluters not the little guy every time because it is easy. Even the debate on carbon taxes, the focus is on taxing the consumers and effects, not at all on a tax on polluters. Guess what, when they tax the polluters the ones who will survive will be those that change their ways, just taxing the consumers will effect nothing because they have little to no choice in many things.

        Aka plastic packaging and bags. The consumers ain’t the ones buying the packaging and putting the consumer goods together in plastic so just making them pay to dispose of packaging for example will not solve the issue, but banning or taxing the packaging or making the seller or create responsible for the problem will effect change straight away because they are the ones creating it.

        Likewise carbon they always talk about how the end user will pay not how business should be taxed to stop polluting. Politicians in NZ are so brainwashed the thought of actually going after business for carbon costs seems beyond them (apart from farmers NOT the farming bodies that should be the first targets aka Fonterra corporate has plenty of money in a slush fund for R&D paid already by the farmers), but don’t bother using it to reduce their farmers carbon contribution.

        Why would you when our industries expect corporate welfare from government at every turn from getting agricultures emissions down to getting cheap workers in for Burger King or Fu Wah because they don’t want to pay local wage rates at the top end because we are in an employment boom (apparently). Many workers may not have noticed…

      • cleangreen 13.1.3

        100% SaveNZ.

        Labour are ‘national lite’ for sure; – and not at all the “transformational’ Government they promised us at all sadly for us and the country and climate.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      A capital gains tax would address none of these problems, and although it could gain some tax revenue, it seems that this will be a long time coming.

      QFT

      Stopping the private banks from creating money and banning foreign ownership are the two that would make the most difference.

      • chris73 13.2.1

        Look here, if Sir Michael Cullen and his government approved tax group can’t work out how to implement CGT or indeed if its even worth it then its a pretty good sign that a CGT is, at the very least, not the answer to anything

        If you want a CGT then be honest and say what its really for, an envy tax

        • Gabby 13.2.1.1

          A Catch the cheats tax.

          • chris73 13.2.1.1.1

            Nationals saying, Sir Michael Cullens saying it, CGT doesn’t work

            • Gabby 13.2.1.1.1.1

              SirCully got himself some property now has he chrissy?

            • Stuart Munro 13.2.1.1.1.2

              Someone needs to tell all those other countries that have CGTs with no particular problem – guess only NZ slumlords can’t work out how to live if they have to pay a bit of tax now and then.

          • SaveNZ 13.2.1.1.2

            That will be financial micro taxes on everything, because there are a lot of large transactions in NZ that we need to make liable for a tiny bit of tax each time. No yearly tax return when by that time the money has turned into a loss, but a tax each time money gets transacted anywhere in NZ for housing, business, wages, sales, commercial, consumer goods etc. Those on minimum wages pay next to nothing because they consume less, those with assets and taking money in and out of NZ have to pay their bit each time so the richer pay proportionally what they are transacting which is clearly a lot more than whats happening at present. Also lead the way to lower taxes and have the first $10,000 or what have you free of tax.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.2.1.2

          We cannot afford the rich.

          That’s got nothing to do with envy and everything to do with physical reality.

  13. Observer Tokoroa 14

    Insurance for Travelers

    We all wish no one would ever die – nor even get a prickle in their little finger.

    But this Duncan Garner nonsense of every New Zealander being able to claim on the NZ Tax Payer for not having insured themselves – is as ridiculous as a TV3 Media daily colossus Shit.

    Next we will hear Simon saying National will save the life of every Capitalist in New Zealand for the next XXXXX Billion years. With the helpless Judith nodding in agreement.

    Why on earth do we let media midgets lose on our TV and Radio – and news rags ?

    The more you follow the NZ Media – the lower your IQ drops. Day by Day. Kinky Richardson; Stinky Garner; Mike the Buffoon Hosking – they are there to keep lowering the bar into the Auckland slush and incompetence and constant mayhem.

    • Dukeofurl 14.1

      The people in Bali did have insurance, the insurer declined the claim because the illness that occurred was exactly an ongoing pre condition. Twisted bowel isnt something you dont know you have.
      pro tip- Holiday in Australia if you have on going medical conditions as you will be covered by the reciprocal emergency hospital agreement

      • Gosman 14.1.1

        Agreed.

      • A.Ziffel 14.1.2

        Begging the question, where was the medivac planned to go to?
        Darwin/Perth or Auckland?

      • Kay 14.1.3

        Emergency hospital treatment, but not the $1000 ambulance or being trapped in Oz after discharge but not fit to fly back (either grounded by medics or by the airline) = massive accommodation costs.

        General rule, even for Aus, if you can’t get pre-existing cover and don’t have enough funds for a worst case scenario like above- especially if you don’t have free accommodation to go to- seriously consider if it’s worth the risk.

        (I don’t think much of insurance companies right now; not that I can afford to travel anywhere in the near future but I’ve had my wings clipped for at least the next 12 months, ie priced out of pre-existing cover. I know why they did it, but the premium increase really is extortionate, not fair and reasonable.)

    • chris73 14.2

      Agreed, on this one Winston Peters was correct. She withheld information on her travel insurance and, unfortunately, the worst case happened but its not up to the government to bail out every tourist in situations like this

  14. Lenore 15

    Restructuring of the public sector churn. This article has really resonated with many of my colleagues going through restructuring that commenced under national and has continued to keep that same agenda under our present Government. Most of us are Labour voters so feel disappointed that ministers are taking the advice of the CEs over the feedback of our union given that the CEs are so obviously rightwing. The way they are being done just seems such a waste of taxpayers money while staff are being sidelined and under utilised. Just don’t get it so would appreciate some of your intelligent insight.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12118830https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12118830

    • Gabby 15.1

      Is that a hiddlediddle link?

    • Dukeofurl 15.2

      Your link is garbled lenore

    • Draco T Bastard 15.4

      The role of the Chief Archivist, the custodian of a core part of our national memory, has been humiliatingly reduced to a lowly third tier manager in the Department of Internal Affairs. The current incumbent has a background in information technology, not archives.

      /facepalm

      IT is primarily archiving. The apps and hardware that people use are all about accessing the archives.

      But it has lost a considerable amount of its capacity to think independently and to advise, in a fashion that is not only free and frank but also well-informed.

      Our public servants can park the car but have lost the ability to advise us on where we should be driving it.

      Which, IMO, has actually been part of the reason why the public service has been restructured to death. Having a public service that has the knowledge to prove the private sector wrong is detrimental to the privatisation agenda of the last few decades that has seen NZ become more expensive while the corporations now administering those government services get a nice, government guaranteed, profit.

      • Dukeofurl 15.4.1

        Its beyond ludicrous
        ( Hate to just paste slabs but some just make you want to weep)
        ” the notion that anyone with the basic set of management skills can manage any government body, whether it be an environmental agency, an economic agency, a museum or a hospital. You will find these generic managers anywhere you look in our government departments and agencies.”

        “For example, the head of the Government’s largest economic agency, MBIE, has a background not in economics but in service delivery and human resources. The person running Te Papa, our national museum no less, is not a person trained in museums and heritage, but previously ran a district health board. Not surprisingly, he’s currently restructuring.” A DHB which was in the news for blatant fiddling the books on its construction projects’

        ” new person to run the Ministry of Primary Industries, a role which requires advising government on complex policy issues dealing with interactions involving agriculture, science, economics and the environment. His most recent experience is the successful running of a delivery institution which locks up lots of New Zealanders. [Prisons]

  15. Exkiwiforces 16

    Has anyone seen this wee beastie of a Hurricane? They are getting stronger every year.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/106976642/us-braces-for-extremely-dangerous-hurricane-florence

  16. SaveNZ 17

    Looks like the favoured options lead to the grants going to construction companies….

    “The Christchurch City Council is proposing to spend the bulk of a $300 million government fund on a new stadium.

    One of Labour’s pre-election promises was a $300m fund for Christchurch, to be spent as the city decided. They upheld their commitment in this year’s budget.

    On Thursday, the council will consider a recommendation to divide the fund as follows:

    $220m for funding a stadium
    $40m for road and transport projects, largely aimed at repairing earthquake damage
    $40m less possible administration costs as a seed fund to speed up development of the Avon River Red Zone’s green spine
    If the council votes to proceed, business cases will have to be developed and approved for each option before the Government hands over the money. The fund was always intended for projects such as the stadium, red zone and infrastructure repairs.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/106972238/christchurch-stadium-the-big-winner-from-councils-plans-for-government-funding

    • Draco T Bastard 17.1

      $220m for funding a stadium

      WTF?

      Don’t they have need of homes and other far more important stuff?

      • Gabby 17.1.1

        Hopefully Hee Hanhin will see that as gummint money for the Orblax.

      • greywarshark 17.1.2

        I wondered about doing something over in Brighton, having organic farms there, or something. Different from what is going on elsewhere and not requiring a lot of built infrastructure.

        Haven’t Christchurch already got a stadium in the Sydenham area? Every city has to have a stadium so they can get rugby matches etc. I guess if Christchurch hasn’t any more advanced ideas than rebuild the cathedral just like it was before with extra bracing, then perhaps they need a stadium.

  17. Dennis Frank 18

    A summary of the election result in Sweden: The Swedish Greens lost 40% of their vote, dropping from 7% of the electorate down to 4%. The Left Party went up from 6% to 8%, so looks like a tactical switch by pale leftist greens. But the big news is that the third largest party is being frozen out!

    SocDems dropped from 31% to 28.4% but remain biggest party in parliament by far. As the colour graphic here shows, the center-left Red-Green bloc & center-right Alliance bloc are now in balance, 40.6% to 40.3%. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-democrats-election-exit-poll-latest-social-democratic-party-far-right-moderates-a8530581.html

    “In May, the government announced plans to cut, almost by half, the number of refugees and migrants entering the country.” Too late!! “After a campaign dominated by debates over immigration, 17.6 per cent of the electorate opted for anti-immigrant party the Sweden Democrats, up from 12.9 per cent in the last election.”

    The Alliance consists of the Moderate party (largest), the Center party, the Liberals & the Christian Democrats. Both they and the Red-Greens “have repeatedly stated that they will not cooperate with the Sweden Democrats in a future government.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2018#Preliminary_results

  18. Dennis Frank 19

    Radical reform proposed by UK Labour’s shadow chancellor. “Labour’s programme of workplace reform will restore the balance between employer and worker with a significant extension of trade union rights, modernising corporate governance structures and extending the opportunity for employees to share collectively in the benefits of ownership of their company.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/workers-rights-labour-party-john-mcdonnell-financial-stake-tug-2018-a8531871.html

  19. Dukeofurl 20

    “After warnings of mass murder and catastrophe in Idlib, I prowled the front lines for two days. I didn’t find what I’d expected
    The only massed forces I came across were vast herds of sheep and, close to Aleppo, a string of camels. War might be coming, but not yet”

    – Fisk

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-last-battle-idlib-robert-fisk-latest-a8530796.html

    “Thus Trumpian-UN-Merkel-Erdogan warnings of humanitarian catastrophe, mass murder, chemical attack and Armageddon had me prowling along Syrian front line roads for all of two days;…”

    Its another one of those situations where the script is prewritten in the West , without regard to actual events…. Like the tale of the two assassins… its has its background as a ‘script’ or a screenplay

  20. greywarshark 21

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366161/biggest-insult-vietnam-veterans-angry-after-repatriation-ceremony-snub
    New Zealand defence force
    8:07 am today
    ‘Biggest insult’ – Vietnam veterans angry after repatriation ceremony snub

    This demonstrates our culture that often disdains people who serve as functionaries advancing the nation but who are not actually appreciated and honoured with a few getting token recognition and the rest being sidelined and bypassed when the matter is over.

    • Dukeofurl 21.1

      “was restricted to 12 family members of each of the returned men, plus dignitaries, media and some serving military personnel.”

      Who are these groupies. It wasnt even connected to Vietnam. Some keep repeating ‘fallen comrades’
      Enough of this glorification of war via the dead. Most died from accidents and werent in combat.

      “Three Service personnel from Fiji and American Samoa were returned to New Zealand on 7 May 2018.
      26 servicemen and one child from Malaysia and one serviceman from Singapore were returned to New Zealand on 21 August 2018.
      Two Service personnel from the United Kingdom will be returned to New Zealand in late-September 2018.
      Two Service personnel from the Republic of Korea will be returned to New Zealand in early-October 2018.”

  21. greywarshark 22

    Simon Bridges quote “Let us see the gmails”.

    When in Government National were often talked about – people sauing “Where are the g-males?’ And if we had seen them doing something, all those g’males, they might still be in power.

    But now they are outside government and just as useless as ever, whining on about false corruption. I await for them to call it a rort that you don’t have to put a stamp on a letter to MPs and civil servants? I hope it is still so anyway, it’s hard to keep up with the change agents. It’s a rort, they will say as at the same time they fade out physical government altogether and have everything in the air – a ‘Lullaby of Birdland’.

    • james 22.1

      Do you think the emails should be released under the OIA?

      • Janice 22.1.1

        Like BEnglish released his texts to Todd Barclay’s ex secretary or JKey his contacts with the blubber?

      • greywarshark 22.1.2

        I don’t even think you should have been released James from wherever you came from. What about the gmails? There are grown-up concerns to think about. You may have been very successful you and the other mosquitoes whining around as there seem to be less commenters discussing stuff they think important while you dance like a will of the wisp dragging all the commenters behind you taking you seriously. All you trolls must laugh at the TS credulous people.

  22. joe90 23

    A helping hand just before landfall.

    Hurricane #Florence, now a Category 4, still has the warmest waters ahead of its path.An ominous trajectory. pic.twitter.com/pshAQniJxX— Eric Holthaus (@EricHolthaus) September 10, 2018

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmxXft7X4AAtkGW.jpg

  23. Herodotus 24

    Our minister of finance has just commented during question time that wages are expected to grow in excess of 3% p.a over the next 2 years, yet the current offer to primary teachers is 3%. Why is the current offer, inferior to expected nz wage growth ?
    https://www.budget.govt.nz/budget/2018/economic-fiscal-outlook/index.htm

    • Dukeofurl 24.1

      3% of average wages is a lot less than 3% of $80,000pa

      • Herodotus 24.1.1

        Many teachers earn less than the top rate you refer to, a large number earn around this rate you refer to, what of them ??
        Under national inflation was 16%, teachers pay increases 17%, but the average full time wage increase 26% over the same period

        • Dukeofurl 24.1.1.1

          “Teachers at the top of the scale would earn $82,992 a year by 2020.
          50% of teachers also receive at least one unit, a $4,000 additional payment on top of their salary rates in recognition of management, leadership and other responsibilities.
          So thats $87k per year for those who stick at it.

          “Since 2007 average primary teacher remuneration (base salary plus allowances) has increased by 30.6 percent to $72,900-Over the same period the labour cost index, which tracks changes in salary and wage rates, has increased by 22.4 per cent. Over the same 10 year period inflation has increased by 21.4 per cent.”

          40% of primary teachers are above the top of the scale now ( $73k +allowances)
          base currently is $48k ( normally with no allowances)

          I would think 80% of teachers currently are above $60k pa
          Refers to primary teachers of course.

          • Herodotus 24.1.1.1.1

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-06-2018/#comment-1490104
            This comment with some support to my figures from item (2)
            Wayne’s our comments don’t hold to be 100%
            Inflation between oct 08 to Dec 2017 was 15%
            https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator
            For primary teachers step 14 was $66,327 in July 08
            In 2017it was $75,949an incease of 14%. Perhaps the infomation was not know to you when you made this uninformed statement of”typically they increased by 2.5%” nothing wrong with mis infomation eh 😜
            https://www.education.govt.nz/ministry-of-education/publications/education-circulars/2008-circulars/circular-200803-settlement-of-primary-teachers-and-primary-principals-ca/
            Not sure what your 30.6% increase is based on
            And those with diplomas max out at $56k

            • Dukeofurl 24.1.1.1.1.1

              Hope you aren’t teaching arithmetic
              As you claim teachers would only get 3% per year. Of course all those teachers not on the top scale step will get the 3% PLUS another amount that is the scale increment.
              Way to go… Almost all other workers don’t get yearly increments on top of cost living increase.
              Sweet as.

              • Herodotus

                As you have returned I await for some links to support your previous comments. But perhaps you are basing your position as standing on thin air

          • greywarshark 24.1.1.1.2

            Probably still works out cheap for the government. They have kept on closing down specialist teaching units which saves money. Now teachers can expect to have a spectrum of learning abilities and have also been having testing under national standards and NCEA and it is all a bit much and they may have to work at home for hours at night when sin such a demanding job they need to be able to relax. Some fudge a bit on the mandatory reporting, and some fudge a lot I believe.

            The teaching needs should be looked at from practical needs first and then theory can be brought into it. And having 1quiet work areas, not sprawled round on cushions with machines in their hadnds. Why do we place machines in between the questing human and the information they need? It is a gatekeeper not open entry.

      • Herodotus 24.1.2

        Many teachers earn less than the top rate you refer to, a large number earn around this rate you refer to, what of them ??
        Under national inflation always 16% teachers pay increases 17% but the average full time wage increase 26% over the same period, previous posts of mine have the links to support these numbers.

        • Dukeofurl 24.1.2.1

          40% are on more than top rate…..which will be $87k in 3 years. These are not principals but teachers in mid 30s age bracket

  24. joe90 25

    Of course, it’s a Murdoch rag.

    My toon in today’s @theheraldsun on #SerenaWilliams @usopen pic.twitter.com/didwtQg1R5— Mark Knight (@Knightcartoons) September 10, 2018

  25. Ed 26

    Jim Mora’s job on the Panel is to PRETEND to have a debate and discussion of the issues, while avoiding ever talking about the heart of the issue and avoiding the big picture.
    His efforts to shut down Julia Whaipooti this afternoon are a case in point.
    Ably assisted by Peter Elliott today.

  26. greywarshark 27

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife/audio/2018661574/honeycrisp-the-large-sweet-south-canterbury-apple-americans-love
    Has one NZ investor, the orchard mainly owned by US investors. No wonder we can never get ahead in this country. We are just land and resources to be mined in some way by furriners.

    • eco moari 27.1

      Good morning The Am Show. I know a bit about the forestry industry .
      Wood Mill have been closing down for the last 5 year’s why because they can not get decent big logs if the logs are small the can not get good timber out of the logs it limits the type of cuts of timber the mills can produce and the logs are soft .
      shonky changed the rules & brought fake carbon credits he set it up so big farmers could clear the tree’s for farming a lot of these trees were only 18 years old or less what a waste . If the trees were left in the ground for 5 to 8 years growing they would have produce 4x the value for Aotearoa than what they produce at 18 years old .
      Drive on the Rotorua to Taupo to Napier and all the trees are gone these forest have were huge and there for at least 40 years . So much for long term planning by shonky he just wanted instant profits his actions have cost Aotearoa $20 billion down the toilet.
      What a fool.
      I think its good that we know exactly how the price of electricity has gone up for the house hold and down for business that will change people attitude.
      What you are not saying is that the poor common person pays the most for power Duncan ????.
      That’s the way more renewable energy need’s to be built solar on houses big wind turbines that’s the way plant more trees its called LOOKING AFTER THE MOKOPUNAS FUTURE Duncan and not just your pocket.
      3D printing is one technology that has a lot of positive uses for the future and printing human body parts is just one of them ka pai .
      That’s how the tender process should work for services and products but I know that its the big companies that short the process and get the contract .
      Ka kit ano

  27. eco moari 28

    These sandflys think that Eco Maori is going to sit around doing nothing mean while they have forced me into unemployment they are spreading mulish lies about me and my immediate whano spying on us all contracting people to tell the lies about us they want to fabricate about me they have nothing . They think there intimidating behavior is going to Stop me from using anyway I can to sue there ass off in a court of law .
    They are scared now why because they are going to get in the ——- right up to there eyeballs when I get my days in A NZ court .
    They played the victim card one can only play that so many times all aggressor play that card when they can they distort my course of justice by intimidating any lawyer I try to get help from .Everything they are doing to Eco Maori and whano is illegal and I will prove it . And when I do the my Waitangi claim will follow straight after ana to kai
    Link below
    Ka kite ano

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjk-rqEu7TdAhUCVLwKHcGsAGsQqOcBMAJ6BAgDEAk&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stuff.co.nz%2Fnational%2F107010644%2Fpolice-car-collides-with-school-bus-in-central-dunedin&usg=AOvVaw3Fe1W3huZk0vjdrqVQK6LW

  28. eco moari 29

    When one does this they look like a tight upper lipped blue coat wearing neo libreal capitalist who is very very upset that Jacinda is Prime minister of Aotearoa LOL
    Link is below ka kite ano

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/well-good/teach-me/106986093/what-happens-when-you-hold-in-a-fart

  29. eco moari 30

    Good evening Newshub There you go when te reo is spoken in shops and in public and no one complains about it that’s when Eco Maori will know that everyone respects Te tangata whenua culture .
    Thats a big positive pass for Auckland fuel tax we have people driving less we will import less fuel less carbon going into the environment more money to build safe roads .
    That Hurricane Florence is going to hit America hard trump will still denie human caused climate change keep safe people .
    Most of the British voters don’t want a trump fan an look a like Boris as there Prime minister no Loyd hows the OE no more free showers lol.
    Olivia hope you beat the cancer 40 years it seem like yesterday watching Grease at the movies . That the way let everyone know that pot is a natural pain suppressor and improves your appetite its a gift from Papatuanuku to be used by te tangata
    That’s the way teach the mokopunas there reo and culture and this changes there whole out look on life it teaches them to respect all Ka pai.
    Ka kite ano

  30. eco moari 31

    Newshub Ka pai to the weather man

  31. eco moari 32

    The Crowd Goes wild Wairangi & James I know what stuffed knees I had a titanium rod hammered through both of mine no kneeling for Eco Maori
    Go white ferns all the best .
    The new Maori side step A cutting them up on the league field I seen him on Maori TV I had a good step .
    You been crook Wai did you get the tripple there was a Pommy searies that I learned that from you mite not get it . Last time I was at the hospital the one time I used there hand sanitizer I got the bot . Ka kite ano

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