Open mike 11/11/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 11th, 2020 - 136 comments
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136 comments on “Open mike 11/11/2020 ”

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  1. Descendant Of Smith 1
    11 November 2020 at 6:51 am

    Interesting article about real estate agents who I have no doubt, from experience from the houses we were (and other friends have been) shown and the surprise at where we wanted to buy, operate exactly the same way here.

    https://jacobinmag.com/2020/11/real-estate-agents-brokers-racism-inequality-housing

    "One obvious way is through race. Real estate agents steer white homebuyers to white neighborhoods and homebuyers of color to nonwhite neighborhoods, and I think it’s imperative to stress that this is a contemporary practice. Just last year, Newsday documented rampant racial discrimination by real estate agents on Long Island."

    "When we think about neighborhood inequality, we should absolutely pay attention to housing prices. Not only do these prices matter for the intergenerational transmission of wealth, housing prices are highly correlated with the quality and robustness of local institutions and amenities."

  2. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2
    11 November 2020 at 7:34 am

    Comment from No Right Turn:

    "Meanwhile, Labour has ruled out a wealth tax, a capital gains tax, or any increase in taxation beyond their derisory re-imposition of a (low) top tax rate on people who earn more than backbench Labour MP's. The message is clear: their "kindness" extends only to rich people, who will be exempted from paying their fair share of the costs of the pandemic (or society in general). As for poor kids, they can keep on starving. Which once again invites the question: what is Labour for, exactly, if they're not going to ever deliver anything?"

    My bold.

    Already, after a mere few weeks with an overwhelming mandate, this Labour government is shaping up to massively under-whelm us on the left.

    • Sabine 2.1
      11 November 2020 at 8:15 am

      they said what they were gonna do and not do, and now they are following through. People should have been underwhelmed before the election and thus maybe have gotten some crumbs thrown their way, but everyone was to busy being scared of Judith Collins. Thus any discussion of what Labour actually said it was gonna do was verboten, and now they don't need the voter anymore. They are elected. Now watch that kindness and gentleness be delivered.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1
        11 November 2020 at 1:02 pm

        Exactly.

        Our elected representatives don't do what the people want but what business wants and it inevitably makes it worse for the majority of people.

    • Kay 2.2
      11 November 2020 at 9:48 am

      Which once again invites the question: what is Labour for, exactly, if they're not going to ever deliver anything?"

      They work for Capital

      https://democracyproject.nz/2020/11/10/josiah-banbury-labour-won-the-election-battle-but-national-won-the-ideological-war/

      Thank you Rosemary for posting this link last night, the most enlightening explanation of the Labour Party mindset I've read. They're as delusional and brainwashed as any Tories. What a waste.

      • alwyn 2.2.1
        11 November 2020 at 1:02 pm

        The Labour MPs aren't delusional Kay. They mostly realise that they are among the rich of this country and they appear to be only too happy to defend their privileges.

        Do you think that the PM is going to attempt to bring down house prices? Of course she isn't. After all she has almost certainly achieved a gain of at least a million dollars in the last two and a half years since she bought a property on Sandringham in Auckland that was then worth a couple of million dollars.. Is she going to risk that? Of course not. Is she going to open herself up to a wealth tax on the house? Of course not. Is she going to risk a capital gains tax on the place? Of course not.

        She isn't part of the working class. She is one of the better off members of the bourgeoisie. She certainly isn't one of the proletariat. So are most of the other members of the Government and they aren't, at least as I see it, going to risk any of their wealth and status.

    • millsy 2.3
      11 November 2020 at 11:04 am

      Unpopular opinion: Jacinda is bascially Tony Blair in heels.

    • Herodotus 2.4
      11 November 2020 at 1:07 pm

      Remember that the greens wealth tax was to pay for the changes in benefits and to implement universal allowance. The 2 go hand in hand, so IMO we need to be careful not to frame this as a tax grab. That there is an offset to addressing inadequacies within the current "support" system. This measure appears to get lost in commentary 😉
      https://www.greens.org.nz/progressive_tax_reform

      https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/beachheroes/pages/12689/attachments/original/1594876918/Poverty_Action_Plan_policy_document_screen-readable.pdf?1594876918

  3. Foreign waka 3
    11 November 2020 at 8:02 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300155251/government-should-use-printed-money-to-increase-benefits-which-will-be-spent-in-the-economy

    Well, no surprises here. At least National is not lying when they say they will reduce taxes, benefits and appease the rich.

  4. Ad 4
    11 November 2020 at 8:05 am

    C'mon Warnock. Give us a Democrat Senator in Georgia.

    • Sabine 4.1
      11 November 2020 at 8:08 am

      And Ossoff, there are two run offs, and the dems need both of them to win.

    • Andre 4.2
      11 November 2020 at 8:15 am

      It'll need a combination of sad MAGAmorons too discouraged to vote given the imminent eviction of their Spraytan Stalin from the White Supremacist House, together with energised Dems eager to give Biden and Harris an actual chance to get something done turning out in massive numbers.

      Unlikely, but I'm still hoping.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    11 November 2020 at 8:32 am

    Farrar examines the fraud potential in the US election: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/11/is_us_election_fraud_real.html

    This essay looks at the 23 types of election fraud in the US, looks at some statistical anomalies in this election and then looks at each of the five most affected states and some specifics of what the Trump campaign are doing.

    His capsule descriptions of each type are worth a read, so here's a few examples:

    1. Throwing away Trump ballots: These actions are alleged to have been undertaken by either postal workers or polling clerks at polling stations. Some have bragging videos on social media.

    2. Legitimately registered voters who voted on election day, were properly verified and ID checked and yet their ballots are not showing up on the electronic vote tracking website as having been counted. This allegation only exists in states that bar code every ballot and offer an online vote tracking system. I have friends in Arizona who say there is no official record of their vote despite doing all that is required to vote.

    4. ‘Losing’ ballots that were favourable to Trump or Trump friendly military ballots found in a dumpster. 8,000 military votes were ‘lost’ in Georgia.

    8. Manipulating United States Postal Service date stamps to backdate late received ballots… Postal workers in Erie, PA have alleged via affidavit that they were instructed to do this by their supervisor.

    12. Selectively curing ballots such as only allowing this practice in Democrat heavy counties and not allowing it in Republican heavy counties. This has formed the basis of the latest Trump campaign lawsuit in PA.

    14. Not purging the voter rolls of dead people and allowing them to vote year after year. There have been numerous instances of this.

    I'm intrigued by #14. Precisely how do dead voters manage to keep voting continuously?? Is their system so poorly managed that votes in prior elections get fed into a current election count?

    What makes the US more inadequate than other western democracies anyway? Seems peculiar that those never have electoral fraud controversies – whereas in the USA they’re apparently considered normal.

    • Andre 5.1
      11 November 2020 at 8:45 am

      Oh fuck, what does it take for people to learn to check for actual reliable information rather than gullibly swallowing down and regurgitating disinformation from known long term liars?

      The US does not have a voter or election fraud problem. The US has a problem with the Repug party just bald-faced lying all the time, and will frequently hokey up something they use to rile up the gullible that other people then have to go and debunk.

      The Repugs do this at least partly as a distraction from their numerous efforts to prevent free and fair elections by methods including voter suppression, gerrymandering, court-packing etc.

      edit: to just start the debunking of the bullshit that you have just idiotically sprayed out:

      https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54811410

      • RedLogix 5.1.1
        11 November 2020 at 9:48 am

        So why did the Russians not hack the election this time?

        • Nic the NZer 5.1.1.1
          11 November 2020 at 9:54 am

          Would have been too easy for them? They prefer a challenge I think.

        • Andre 5.1.1.2
          11 November 2020 at 9:59 am

          It seems they tried, but didn't get the traction this time around.

          Partly because some of their efforts were shut down on them.

          https://www.vox.com/2020/9/21/21401149/russia-2020-election-meddling-trump-biden

          Partly because Biden hasn't had decades of smears thrown at him that preprime the gullible for new smears against him, unlike Hillary.

          Partly because they tried to use a totally inept messenger completely lacking in credibility to anyone with even the slightest degree of skepticism.

          https://www.businessinsider.com.au/officials-told-white-house-russian-intelligence-targeted-rudy-giuliani-report-2020-10?r=US&IR=T

          • aj 5.1.1.2.1
            11 November 2020 at 10:46 am

            Last election the Dems beat the drum to death that Russian interference helped Trump win.

            This election the Republicans allege Russian interference helped Biden win.

            Either the Russians don't know who they want to lead the USA, or the reality is that both sides a bogeyman to blame for their own shortcomings. Why meddle with the electoral system in that country when it's natural state is chaos.

            • Andre 5.1.1.2.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 10:50 am

              You got a linky for Repug allegations that Russian interference helped Biden?

              I hadn't seen any, and I'm in the mood for a laugh.

            • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.2.1.2
              11 November 2020 at 12:30 pm

              In 2014-2017 an intruder had control of the state computer in Georgia which programmed vote-counting machines for all counties. The same computer also held voter registration records. The intrusion exposed all election files in Georgia since then to compromise and malware. The FBI studied that computer in 2017, and public disclosure came in 2020 from a court case. Georgia did not have paper ballots to measure the amount of error in electronic tallies.

              In October 2016, Russians accessed the internal computers of VR Systems, which provides election services, including compilation of election results and their release on the web, in 8 states. The intruders damaged 10 computers. The NSA prepared a classified report in May 2017, and it was leaked in June 2017. Whether the damage affected vote tallies has not been revealed.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud

            • Stuart Munro 5.1.1.2.1.3
              11 November 2020 at 3:35 pm

              You omitted the option that Russia will cheerfully back whoever promises to do the most damage to the US. A weak US will not contest Russia's geopolitical ambitions, a strong one, historically, will.

        • francesca 5.1.1.3
          11 November 2020 at 12:13 pm

          Oh come on Red

          You know the answer to that

          Because the right guy won

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.2
        11 November 2020 at 9:52 am

        actual reliable information

        ?? I thought it was up to the courts to determine the existence of electoral fraud. Until they do we just get claim vs counter-claim in the media.

        So you want to pretend only one side does it in the USA. Those of us who read history learn the contrary. Why do you think Trump's father used his Democrat party links to help him get rich? Because it was profitable to do so.

        • Andre 5.1.2.1
          11 November 2020 at 10:11 am

          Idiot.

          So far there's been a vast amount of lies put out by Republicans alleging fraud with zero evidence. That complete lack of evidence is why those lawsuits have failed, almost all immediately at the first hurdle.

          If you actually took a look at who is doing what and what evidence is actually being produced, you would very quickly realise that it's almost all coming from only one side. Just look for how many different ways the Republicans tried to stop eligible voters from casting their votes, and compare that to how many comparable Democrat efforts there were (none). Look at how many attempts Republicans have made to stop the counting of legitimate valid votes, and compare that to comparable Democrat efforts (none).

          It's mindlessly easy and quick to toss out a throwaway line like "both sides do it". But when you do it without actually checking it to see if it's a supportable assertion, and expect others to debunk you, it's just contemptibly fucking rude.

          • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.1.1
            11 November 2020 at 10:27 am

            Moron.

            The integrity of the electoral system is being tested by the claims and the validation process. When you have a country with a history that produced a political climate of paranoia and claims of electoral fraud, obviously you need to conduct due process. What part of that do you not understand?

            Farrar's friends in the US discovered that the system failed to register their votes. Are you such a braindead partisan that you don't believe him or them?

            If yes, are you incapable of comprehending how such experiences undermine voter trust in the electoral system?? If no, same question applies!

            • Andre 5.1.2.1.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 10:39 am

              There is a veritable cornucopia of crapulence overflowing with frivolous lawsuits, outright lies, investigations on spurious grounds, all initiated by Republicans, that all turn out to be baseless. Sabine has been kind enough to point you to actual information debunking some of the crap you've so happily swallowed.

              Now, what equivalent bullshit put out by Democrats can you actually point to? Real actual actions and evidence, not just quick and dirty lies thrown out by shameless Repug operatives.

              Because if you can't. then your "both sides do it" and your mindless regurgitation of one side's bullshit makes you a part of the fucking problem.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2020 at 10:48 am

                Claim and counter-claim aren't evidence. Only a partisan would disagree. Sabine's links to media counter-claims are irrelevant to my points.

                Democracy is a numbers game. Results depend on valid votes. Due process must establish the number of valid votes. A Republican state official makes the point:

                In Georgia, where the tally is continuing and Mr Biden leads, its secretary of state hit back on Monday at fellow Republicans who had criticised his handling of the election.

                Brad Raffensperger, whose office oversees Georgia's election, said: "Was there illegal voting? I am sure there was. And my office is investigating all of it. Does it rise to the numbers or margin necessary to change the outcome to where President Trump is, given Georgia's electoral votes? That is unlikely."

                https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54882647

            • left_forward 5.1.2.1.1.2
              11 November 2020 at 3:19 pm

              “There’s a great human capacity for inventing things that aren’t true about elections,” said Frank LaRose, a Republican who serves as Ohio’s secretary of state.

              From New York Times (sorry paywalled) –The Times Called Officials in Every State: No Evidence of Voter Fraud

              Its total BS Dennis. Thanks for your persistence Andre.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2020 at 4:16 pm

                You didn't quote any Rep source, therefore your reckon isn't worth much. And did you know that judgments on electoral law (mal)practice are actually made by courts? Not state officials. Your reckon will seem valid in states that don't have electoral law court cases, but subjective reckons of bystanders are irrelevant until we know the outcomes of these controversies.

                • left_forward …
                  12 November 2020 at 7:09 am

                  No, I tend to avoid biased sources. Thats how I improve the chance of a reckon being closer to the truth, but even then I keep my mind open.

                  You on the other hand, seem to be relying for your closed view, on the biased reckon of the POTUS, a man not known for caring for the truth.

                  Yes I did know that judgments on electoral law are made by courts.

        • Sabine 5.1.2.2
          11 November 2020 at 10:15 am

          Honestly you need to add links to your claims. Just for histories sake.

          And i would also not compare the Democrats of the pre – 60s to the democrats of today.

          As for the claim that one side does it, well history shows us that there are poll taxes. literacy demands, 3/5 of the value of a white person, suffragets etc, and one could – looking at the history of voting and voting rights in the US – simply assume that if the Republicans could they would go back to the 1750 and simply not allow anyone to vote who is not a white property owning (land and humans btw) male. Just based on history – recent history one could even add.

        • Andre 5.1.2.3
          11 November 2020 at 10:25 am

          As just one example of how the Repugs lie to create the impression there's smoke, and then quietly slink away when there's nothing to actually show, consider the Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity set up early in the current maladministration. It was headed by Kris Kobach, a Ginger Genghis sycophant that set up camp so far up Drumpf's ass he double-bunked with Hannity.

          But even Kobach couldn't hokey up even some bullshit apparently credible enough to keep it going, let alone find any actual evidence, so it was quickly shut down. But it served its purpose, creating an impression of "there's something there" for the gullible such as yourself.

          https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-voter-fraud-commission-matthew-dunalp-maine-kris-kobach-mike-pence-trump-voter-fraud-commission-matthew-dunalp-maine-kris-kobach-mike-pence-a8477716.html

          • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.3.1
            11 November 2020 at 10:35 am

            gullible

            That's someone who believes a con. You ought to avoid the trap of assuming other readers fall into that category. Beyond true/false lies maybe. Comments on the maybe part of the validity of truth claims about US voting ought not to be mentally mis-filed into the wrong category!

            • Andre 5.1.2.3.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 10:42 am

              You have shown yourself to be gullible by swallowing down whole and regurgitating here outright bullshit propaganda put out by well-known liars without showing any sign of making the slightest effort to fact-check.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2020 at 10:50 am

                Bullshit. Electoral fraud can only be established by court decision. No amount of poncing around by you on the stage here is gonna change that.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  11 November 2020 at 11:09 am

                  Oh the power and the passion….

                  "No amount of poncing around by you on the stage here…" wink

                • Andre …
                  11 November 2020 at 11:11 am

                  If you're hung up on court decisions and uninterested in looking at actual evidence, well, here's a brief summary of how those lawsuits are going:

                  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/09/republican-lawsuits-challenging-election-pennsylvania-arizona-nevada-havent-gone-far-heres-why/6227596002/

                  tl;dr Most of the lawsuits have been immediately thrown out through lack of evidence. None of the cases that got further involve any kind of fraud. What appears to be the most significant win the Repugs got was being allowed to watch ballots being counted from six feet away instead of ten feet. Which affected the vote count by precisely zero.

                  But hoo-boy, those lawsuits have been absolute gold for duping the gullible into thinking there's something there.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    11 November 2020 at 11:45 am

                    And I've always believed such outcomes are likeliest. However it's best to keep an open mind rather than pre-judge. Is what's going on here just mass delusional-thinking? Trumpism is contagious. But not all rightists get affected, eh?

                    Then the old saying about where there's smoke there's fire affects mass judgment too. Centrists wonder about that. In an era where fake news gets leverage, we suspect smoke manufacturing to occur, but we do need to check there's no fire.

                    • RedLogix …
                      11 November 2020 at 3:56 pm

                      Or to put it simply, claims that the 2020 election must be free from all flaws are a bit rich coming from the same crowd that spent the last four years telling us that the 2016 election was illegitimate.

                    • Phillip ure …
                      11 November 2020 at 4:49 pm

                      @ d. frank..you are regurgitating right-wing spin…in a somewhat confused/incoherent manner..doing groin-stretching leaps..from peak to peak….with not much in-between ..unpleasant to watch..

    • Sabine 5.2
      11 November 2020 at 8:56 am

      11 November 2020 at 8:56 am

      Nr. 1. Unless you have someone open the ballots in a sorting centre you would not know if its Trump or Biden. But ballots were not delivered by the Trump appointed Post Master – who ordered sorting machines destroyed, slowed down delivery – not only of ballots but of standard mail, medicine etc to the pace of a snail, and so on.

      See here the last call from a Judge to sweep all facilities to find ballots that were not processed? It was ignored. https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2020/11/judge-furious-with-louis-dejoy-after-usps-refuses-search-for-undelivered-mail-in-ballots.html

      Nr. 2 only mail in ballots are tracable, votes in person are not tracable. They however will be voted on the day itself, while mail in ballots, provisional ballots and ballots deposited in drop boxes will be counted after all in person votes have been counted.

      Here is an article that gives a list of states that trace mail in ballots https://www.newsweek.com/these-are-states-where-you-can-track-your-mail-vote-1525920

      Nr. 4 – again' a drop of newly counted' ballots is not 'found' Military votes are often counted last as they have the longest way to travel, specially overseas votes. And frankly if they would favor Trump he would not call to have them not counted.

      https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trumps-calls-to-stop-vote-counts-could-disenfranchise-military-voters-2020-11?r=US&IR=T

      Nr. 8. Yeah, a bit of reading comes up with' not so fast jose'. https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/nov/05/allegations-usps-election-fraud-michigan-dont-hold/

      Nr. 12 – there is no selectively curing ballots. there is however an issue with signature matching and a lot of people seem to forget to sign the enveloppe. Some States allow for people that have forgot this to come to a polling station and 'fix' this rather then have their vote invalidated. https://apnews.com/article/ap-explains-cured-ballot-018369d11ec349472e95ee5b4053df27

      Nr. 14 Dead people and their vote. Firstly, if you cast your mail in ballot and send it off and then die in a car accident on the way home, it is a valid ballot, considering that you were not dead at the time of voting. This happens. But Lindsay Graham is very upset that dead people may vote, i'll give you that. But read here this https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/06/technology/dead-voters-pennsylvania.html

      Just because the Republicans would like to go back to a time where only white male property owning libertarians got to vote, does not mean there is actually rampant voter fraud by democrats or democratic voting people.

    • Incognito 5.3
      11 November 2020 at 9:02 am

      Your Sceptical Alert Level and Warning System (AKA BS Detector) has let you down badly.

      When PDF mentions “statistical anomalies”, it should raise a major flag with you and set off all alarm systems because you’re being sucked into a rabbit hole. Instead, you’re widening the entrance and even sign-posting it to suck in more folks that are gullible 🙁

      FFS!!

      • Dennis Frank 5.3.1
        11 November 2020 at 10:06 am

        Denial doesn't really work. He wouldn't have been able to identify 23 established methods of US electoral fraud if their political culture hadn't normalised them.

        Why this hasn't happened in other capitalist democracies is a point worth considering, though. Rabbit holes are for conspiracy theorists, so that's a red herring. Is gaming the system via corruption inevitable due to Americans being inherently corrupt? I doubt it. So there's some kind of cultural factor at work, I suspect. Would be helpful if perceptive readers can identify it.

        • RedLogix 5.3.1.1
          11 November 2020 at 5:31 pm

          Ad more or less identified it last night, too much political process, not enough institional stability.

          In particular the US has a very complex and arcane electoral system at every level. It just begs to be gamed.

          • Dennis Frank 5.3.1.1.1
            11 November 2020 at 6:26 pm

            I guess the moral of the story is that which applies to other infrastructure neglect: if you don't tweak it from time to time it becomes increasingly malfunction-prone.

            Consequence of the electoral cycle getting all the political attention. No system design for long-term revision & regeneration.

            • Ad 5.3.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 9:38 pm

              In the United States at least, if the people don't get what they need for long enough, and there are no public sector institutions sufficiently redistributing and refreshing power, the answer is revolution or civil war.

              It's the country with the precedent of both, and I'm sure they would accept either as appropriate. If it got bad.

        • Incognito 5.3.1.2
          11 November 2020 at 11:43 pm

          Denial? What are you on about? Scepticism doesn’t equal denial!?

          You’re seeing things that aren’t there, missing flags, and warning signs. Instead of being sceptical of PDF, one of the key players in DP, and of what he writes about the US Elections of all things – more importantly why – you fell for his ‘Nigerian Prince’ scam, just as the gullible do. Instead of engaging your critical faculties, you swallowed his ‘essay’ hook, line & sinker – where was your usual ‘critical analysis’, where was your questioning? You lapped it up like a good lackey. PDF is very good at what he does, I admit, but still, you cannot hide behind ignorance on this one.

          You claim that there’s no conspiracy and therefore (!!) no rabbit hole. You jumped straight into it, with your eyes wide open – speaking of detachment from reality and denial.

          Your obtuseness on display here on OM today is gobsmacking – you’ve been played like a fiddle and don’t even know it.

          • RedLogix 5.3.1.2.1
            12 November 2020 at 8:03 am

            The media biases are so blatant and pervasive that I'm not going to swallow any one claim uncritically. Like Dennis I'm just going to wait as see as the process unfolds and get on with other things more useful.

            But at this moment you have to bet on Biden. Another four years of Andre's tangerine hued bon-mots being unsupportable. devil

    • Peter 5.4
      11 November 2020 at 9:23 am

      I presume the article somewhere mentions that all he accepts that capsule descriptions 'all of the above,' could have the words 'Democrat' and 'Republican' substituted for each other, the name Trump able to be replaced by the name of any any President and the acceptance the election year could be any.

      One aspect to what is going on in discussions (and ranting) about absentee votes and counting them, is to do with the votes of the military. It has been a perennial topic. Views were expressed before the election likely generated by Trump comments.

      'How the fight over mail-in ballots threatens to undermine the votes of American troops'

      https://taskandpurpose.com/analysis/military-mail-in-voting-2020-election

      Another headline elsewhere: 'Trump calls for ballot counting scenario where votes legally cast by military would be thrown out.'

      The most wonderful thing about the situation is that those charged with defending the country, those on the line wherever they are to see that the American way is protected, would not even have a vote.

      Even better that that should be orchestrated in an attempt to advantage someone who couldn't quite make the cut to be in the military. (i.e. Gutless little rich bastard who was prepared to have others die so he could live the life he wanted and had the father who could wangle it.)

    • millsy 5.5
      11 November 2020 at 11:09 am

      At the end of the day, Trump was leading the USA to total biblical theocracy (among other things). Steps needed to be taken, and if certain things needed to manipulated to achieve this, and so be it.

      If the election is indeed stolen from Trump, then those faceless officals did the US people a great service.

      Sometimes these things need to be done.

      • Dennis Frank 5.5.1
        11 November 2020 at 11:50 am

        Trump as the instrument of god's will always seemed amusing but I agree the US could make a threat to world peace out of god's will on any basis.

        Don't agree that cheating is justified though – in principle. If he had actually threatened nuclear war, I could agree that greater-good morality justifies intervention, but he never got that loopy, did he?

    • Treetop 5.6
      11 November 2020 at 12:26 pm

      Another conspiracy surrounding a Trump election. Only this time there is transparency.

    • tc 5.7
      11 November 2020 at 1:14 pm

      Farrar examines copy/pastes to arrive at his chosen angle about the fraud potential in the US election.

      FIFY

    • WeTheBleeple 5.8
      11 November 2020 at 1:44 pm

      FFS get a grip and do some reading before spinning.

      • Dennis Frank 5.8.1
        11 November 2020 at 2:35 pm

        I didn't spin anything, btw. Just reported how the other half are seeing things. Remember that social reality is co-constructed. Splitting it into leftist & rightist bubbles produces delusional thinking – the deep holistic reality remains unaffected by that flim-flam.

        So I was illuminating the difference between perception (mass perceptions) and reality (court outcomes). Notice how the other commentators were/are doing trial by media instead? Unhelpful, and just as likely to breed delusional thinking.

        That wikipedia quote I cited proves hacking the US electoral system computers has happened, so retreating into denial of electoral fraud is a mistake.

        • WeTheBleeple 5.8.1.1
          11 November 2020 at 2:58 pm

          Nobodies retreating into denial of electoral fraud. They're watching Trump's cases getting thrown out, the farcical claims and measures, the clumsy shitshow that it all is, and reporting some of that here: that which you accuse of 'trial by media' rather than what it was, a response to your lack of discernment.

          And they've (GOP) been blatantly attempting to cheat this whole time. We've all see it. Gerrymandering, trying to invalidate votes, puppet postmaster, lack of polling stations, so many silly court requests, the list goes on AND NOW INCLUDES fraudulently (all the knocked back court cases amount to BS for purpose) obstructing the democratic process and denying that Trump is the biggest loser ever.

          All those Q anon twats say they're 'just asking questions' as they repeat preposterous shite as well. It pays to check a few sources, those whom live in alternative realities are among us.

          • Dennis Frank 5.8.1.1.1
            11 November 2020 at 3:10 pm

            And I'm aware of all that, of course. You see a lack of discernment that isn't actually there. I was illuminating that political psychology driving the situation. The more we comprehend that stuff, the less it is likely to produce sociopathy.

            Testing truth claims is part of how human society operates. I regard aversion to that as a strong signal of a sociopathic tendency. Doesn't matter how much bullshit the trumpists are disseminating. That's not the point. Democracy is contestable by design. Trying to deplatform the other team is wrong.

            • Andre 5.8.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 3:23 pm

              Oh horseshit.

              It looks like you saw something you could use to virtue-signal how "open-minded" you are in "considering all sides of an argument". So you posted it here, without applying even the simplest level of skepticism and independent fact-checking.

              Had you taken even the most basic look outside of Dirty Politics Farrar's propaganda piece and his links to the worst kinds of partisan gargoyles, you would have quickly understood what a passel of lies the whole thing was.

              edit: if you need help on how to fact-check, google is your friend. Here’s a starter how-to.

              https://www.factcheck.org/2016/11/how-to-spot-fake-news/

              • Nic the NZer …
                11 November 2020 at 3:43 pm

                So were taking our advice on spotting fake news from you now are we?

              • greywarshark …
                11 November 2020 at 3:47 pm

                Stuff the USA. Those who are so concerned about the way they do things, why don't you go and live there and show them what to do. All we are seeing here is USA. No. 5 goes on and on like a toilet roll. The light from the USA dazzles us, and we stand in the middle of the road like gaping bunnies who can't move out of our own way to save ourselves.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2020 at 4:20 pm

                Your bigotry is equal and opposite to anything on Farrar's site. Are you really unaware that democracy is based on fairness? Or do you just get off on juvenile point scoring? If so, time to grow up.

                • Macro …
                  11 November 2020 at 5:09 pm

                  Good grief!

                  https://twitter.com/AriBerman/status/1326352935635345410?s=19

                  The only ones committing fraud it seems are the Repugnants:

                  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/10/us-postal-worker-recants-voter-fraud-claims-after-republicans-call-for-inquiry

                  NewsMax host and former Trump administration official Carl Higbie spends three minutes spewing a laundry list of false and debunked claims casting doubt on the outcome of the presidential election.

                  “I believe it’s time to hold the line,” said Higbie, who resigned from his government post over an extensive track record of racist, homophobic and bigoted remarks, to the Trump faithful. “I’m highly skeptical and you should be too.”

                  The video, which has been shared more than 350,000 times on Facebook, is just one star in a constellation of pro-Trump misinformation that is leading millions of Americans to doubt or reject the results of the presidential election.

                  …

                  False election claims have not been confined to the internet and the airwaves. At a “Stop the Steal” rally on Saturday organized by longtime Tea Party activists and anti-lockdown protesters, attendees cited some of the exact same stories that were featured in Higbie’s Newsmax monologue, including claims that had already been factchecked by local Michigan news outlets. Several people at the rally said they did not trust Fox News and, even after Fox had called the election for Biden, the pro-Trump crowd was still chanting, “Four more years!” and “We won!”

                  The fact that many Trump supporters do not trust the election results is hardly surprising, since the president “primed his supporters to not accept the outcome if he didn’t win”, said Lewis, the misinformation researcher.

                  What has been striking, she said, are the tensions within the rightwing media about how to address the election results, or what story to tell about what supposedly went wrong.

                  “They haven’t actually clicked into a clearcut narrative as quickly as the Trump media ecosystem often does,” she said.

                  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/10/donald-trump-us-election-misinformation-media

                  Meanwhile back in the real world – the Trump lawsuits are going no where and all lack any valid, verifiable evidence.

                  Since election day, Donald Trump and other Republicans have filed a smattering of lawsuits in battleground states that have provided cover for Trump and other Republicans to say that the election still remains unresolved.

                  Legal experts have noted these suits are meritless, and even if they were successful, would not be enough to overturn the election results. Indeed, judges in several of these lawsuits have already dismissed them, noting the Trump campaign has failed to offer evidence to substantiate allegations of fraud.

                  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/10/donald-trump-longshot-election-lawsuits

                • greywarshark …
                  12 November 2020 at 9:34 am

                  Smart alec DF with a riposte quoting authority to anyone questioning your assertions. You will never grow up, you will retain that cute, self-importance of a spoiled, indulged child all your life. It has served you well. Why attempt to change it and mature. You should join DPF on Kiwiblog, you would be a real ass-et there.

            • Phillip ure 5.8.1.1.1.2
              11 November 2020 at 4:59 pm

              Well..one thing you have proven here today…is that you aren't very good at 'testing truth claims'…'cos farrar can be relied upon to be spin-free..eh..?..and what did you say that fail at 'testing truth claims' says about a person…?….you are pimping trump-lies..that have been polished by farrar…and you are wondering why you are being jeered at..?

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2020 at 6:09 pm

                So you can't read comments and comprehend them simultaneously, eh? I don't agree with anything Farrar writes, nor what Trump says. I couldn't care less if retards here think anyone who doesn't toe the party line is an enemy. go back to kindergarten & pay attention next time.

                • WeTheBleeple …
                  11 November 2020 at 7:35 pm

                  "President Donald Trump's administration is taking on the characteristics of a tottering regime — with its loyalty tests, destabilizing attacks on the military chain of command, a deepening bunker mentality and increasingly delusional claims of political victory.

                  https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/11/politics/donald-trump-joe-biden-transition/index.html

                  Oh we're paying attention. It's the longest cliffhanger ever.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    11 November 2020 at 7:58 pm

                    That quote describes how I've been seeing it. Today I just tried to draw attention to how Farrar framed it, because contesting the merit of electoral fraud claims seems to be part of the US system nowadays. Political commentary ought to gauge the merit of such claims on the basis that they acquire mass traction.

                    Since trial by media doesn't work (media feeds on competing truth claims) we await judicial process to determine whether evidence exists. Presuming little is found, rightists in the US will subdivide into two camps: a shrinking number who cling to the mass delusion, and an increasing number who would rather get real.

                    Currently Republicans are mostly exhibiting solidarity. Untenable, likely, so the period we are in is a political hinge. The shift will gather speed. That's the context I have tried to illuminate.

                    • WeTheBleeple …
                      12 November 2020 at 6:07 am

                      You'd write a book rather than admit you failed to look up what you read about. I'm embarrassed for you.

        • Ad 5.8.1.2
          11 November 2020 at 5:51 pm

          Some perceptions matter a lot more than others when it comes to shifts of democratic power.

          Since the Supreme Court has already declined to hear Trump's arguments in the previous weeks, there's very little likelihood of the Supreme Court agreeing to intervene now. Even his own Supreme Court Appointment Amy Coney Barrett signalled in the hearings that she's unlikely to intervene in voting matters.

          And the good reasons that the Supreme Court will not intervene are set out here by Politico:

          https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/04/supreme-court-trump-reelection-434071

          And then there's civil society: the banks have well and truly moved on from Trump:

          https://www.aba.com/about-us/press-room/press-releases/aba-statement-on-presidential-election

          Jamie Dimon of JPMorganChase congratulated Biden and demanded a smooth transition of power.

          https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/07/business/business-leaders-react-biden-win/index.html

          Cheryl Sandberg the COO of Facebook set out her warm congratulations to Biden and Harris in her official post:

          https://www.facebook.com/sheryl/posts/10164271355910177

          77% of major business want Biden and his team to succeed and prefer him:

          https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/01/investing/stocks-week-ahead/index.html

          Whether Trump's foolishness continues through certification or not, the markets are the fourth power in the US political world. They're well past Trump already.

          The best thing President Trump can do now is use the next 2 months to continue to fuck every leader in the United States off, so much that as well as civil society rising, even stacking the Pentagon will accelerate ex-generals mobilising the military against him.

          And no, that's not a coup, that's the Constitutional arms enforcing the elected transition of power.

          • Dennis Frank 5.8.1.2.1
            11 November 2020 at 6:14 pm

            Yes the split on the right is the thing to watch now. Pragmatists vs those in the bubble. Trump's ego is unconfined by his superego (Freudian theory if I recall it right, the superego being internalisation of social hierarchy). Couldn't he take a rest for four years & run again? Never heard of anyone doing it but am unaware of any reason why not. If viable someone ought to inform him of the option…

            • The Al1en 5.8.1.2.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 6:20 pm

              Vice president from '53 to '61, Nixon lost to JFK in ’60 and won against Hubert Humphrey in '69.

              Not the same thing but a fitting role model for Trump.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2020 at 7:12 pm

                Smuts was "prime minister of the Union of South Africa from 1919 to 1924 and 1939 to 1948." (Wikipedia)

                Fifteen years between his two stints as ruler is remarkable, eh? But he was a remarkable guy. Guerilla leader in the Boer War, rebel against the British Empire, a lawyer become general in the army. Then given the rank of Field Marshal by Winston Churchill when Smut joined his War Cabinet in WWII by invitation. Plus he wrote Holism & Evolution and the preamble to the UN Charter.

                • Ad …
                  11 November 2020 at 9:49 pm

                  Smuts? Really? Makes David Duke look like a racial lightweight.

                  "Jan Smuts is today, in his world aspects, the greatest protagonist of the white race. " – W. E. DuBois, 1925

                  The United Nations Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 was formulated at precisely the same time that South Africa committed itself to the policy of apartheid – which he backed.

                  In the second half of the twentieth century, the problem of racism and apartheid became a leading test case for the assertion of human rights. Smuts was the Prime Minister of South Africa installing a black nationwide prison leading up to 1948.

                  Sure he helped the UN Declaration preamble, but he fully supported and enforced racial segregation and he enforced it starting as Prime Minister of the South African apartheid state – in fact right through to 1948.

    • Muttonbird 5.9
      12 November 2020 at 9:50 am

      Farrar examines

      The very first word in your comment is false.

      You might argue that guest posts on a blog are endorsed by the owner but that could get you into a lot of trouble here.

      Or are you claiming Kiwi in America is a Farrar pseudonym?

  6. Tiger Mountain 6
    11 November 2020 at 8:41 am

    That big pesky German may get a further, new taxpayer damages payout over privacy “mistakes”.
    https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/kim-dotcom-line-new-taxpayer-payout

    Kim previously got 90 grand in 2018 for a privacy breach
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/353417/crown-to-pay-90-000-for-kim-dotcom-privacy-breach

    This guy is going to do the NZ Govt. in the end, having a great life in NZ while he is at it!
    John Key and the toxic legacy of the “Hobbit Affair” are likely going to haunt the NZ Govt. and Judiciary for some years to come. Sucking up to the Americans is not always a great idea.

    • RedBaronCV 6.1
      11 November 2020 at 1:25 pm

      Key should never have started this rubbish . I would really like to see a lot more of the background around why this was decided.At best it has only ever been a civil copyright violation but I assume KDC still has the platform defence that Facebook and the others use – no responsibility for what is on there.

      Plus it must be time for the USA to drop the request and reimburse us. It's cost us taxpayers here a fortune

      And I do feel for the others caught up with KDC. At best they seem to be basically employees and AFAIK none of them have ever been wealthy. This is now eight years on.
      I also have a feleling that kim may have donated money won in the past or something similar??? very vague recollection

  7. ianmac 7
    11 November 2020 at 9:01 am

    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, when asked about engaging with the Biden team on a transition, said with a smirk "there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration" and stressed the need to count all votes.

    So the Republicans are not going to accept the result of the Election. Crikey! A bit grim for a model Democracy?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/secretary-of-state-enters-post-election-fray-as-republicans-fight-transition/7ILYJEYWYJKAIV7YYKRDI55MHE/

    • Peter 7.1
      11 November 2020 at 9:35 am

      I saw Pompeo. I think he was kidding and being a smartarse. In contrast to his 'shove a light build somewhere to cure yourself' boss who has no capability to have a sense of humour and after saying something stupid pretends he was joking.

      In think Pompeo is an arrogant smart arse. There is a bit of a serious electoral situation going on over there. Playing fast and loose in situations best served with gravitas is bizarre, pathetic and shows how out of control things are there. Saying exactly the same thing with a beer in his hand at a barbecue with a couple of mates wouldn't be so bad. No big audience there though, so he probably wouldn't have said it.

      Which makes it calculated when said in the big world at a formal presser. And makes it indicative of scummy losers being in scummy loser mode.

    • Treetop 7.2
      11 November 2020 at 10:23 am

      Trump is the only person who needs to recognise the outcome of the election because he is holding up the transition from president to president elect.

      Nothing will be gained and Trump will be removed forcibly if required.

    • Macro 7.3
      11 November 2020 at 1:50 pm

      Yes a very embarrassing sentence or two said by the Secretary of State.

      Here is how some in America think of this and the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

      Mike Pompeo undermined America’s democracy in one press conference

      But when another reporter asked if Trump’s refusal to concede was hurting the State Department’s messaging to other nations that elections should be conducted and finalized freely, fairly, and democratically, Pompeo erupted.

      “That’s ridiculous, and you know it’s ridiculous, and you asked it because it’s ridiculous,” he asserted. “You asked a question that is ridiculous.”

      “The department cares deeply to make sure that elections around the world are safe and secure, and free and fair, and my officers risk their lives that that happens,” he continued.

      Except the question wasn’t ridiculous.

      Pompeo and his agency frequently criticize other countries’ democratic failures — take, for instance, Pompeo’s recent messages to Tanzania and Belarus — while watching the US president do the same thing at home. And now, based on Pompeo’s remarks, the State Department is actually defending those actions.

      This is a bad look for America. Trump’s behavior, and Pompeo’s apparent support for it, makes it harder for the US to tell other countries to abide by democratic norms. If the US doesn’t follow those norms, why should others?

      What all this says about the state of America is extremely troubling: The president and secretary of state aren’t doing much better than the undemocratic leaders they lambaste.

  8. Stephen D 8
    11 November 2020 at 10:23 am

    At what point does a "coup" become a coup?

    • Treetop 8.1
      11 November 2020 at 10:35 am

      When the leader has the army behind him to enforce the leadership.

      • Stephen D 8.1.1
        11 November 2020 at 11:10 am

        So are the Joint Chiefs of Staff loyal to the President, or to the Constitution. And if the constitution wins, can the President sack them and replace them with his puppets?

        • Andre 8.1.1.1
          11 November 2020 at 11:21 am

          The Enlistment Oath:

          I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)."

          The oath to the constitution is dominant, there's no out clause. The bit about obeying the orders of the President is conditional on the code of military justice.

          Adolf Twitler can fire anyone he wants from the Joint Chiefs, but anyone he appoints as replacement will have also taken the same oath. Also, given how he's treated the top military personnel, he might have trouble finding anyone in the top brass willing to be a stooge.

          • Stephen D 8.1.1.1.1
            11 November 2020 at 11:35 am

            Thanks.

            It really is a farcical shitshow.

          • tc 8.1.1.1.2
            11 November 2020 at 1:18 pm

            Adolf Twitler ! that's gold Andre

            • Andre 8.1.1.1.2.1
              11 November 2020 at 1:23 pm

              Here, have a treasure map to the motherlode. Use it cautiously and wisely.

              https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpNicknames/

              • Phillip ure …
                11 November 2020 at 5:05 pm

                I flicked thru a couple of pages..and I think that the ones that people come up with here…are actually of a higher calibre..a gathering together of them would be a good exercise..

                • Andre …
                  11 November 2020 at 5:33 pm

                  The older stuff is better. After two or three years fatigue set in and there was a lot less good new stuff coming through. But I did see a new one today that tickled a bit – "Don Cornholeone".

                  I was planning a big cathartic dump of all the things I've called him sometime when I won't have need of them anymore. It's a big list, might have to trickle them out maybe twenty a day or something.

        • Treetop 8.1.1.2
          11 November 2020 at 12:44 pm

          A successful coup is reliant on the military backing an unelected leader. The military will not back Trump so no coup once his term is up.

      • Treetop 8.1.2
        11 November 2020 at 2:02 pm

        Edit I tried to correct when I commented @8.1 but was to late.

        When the unelected leader has the army behind them to enforce being the leader.

    • joe90 8.2
      11 November 2020 at 1:30 pm

      I guess we're about to find out.

      https://twitter.com/rabrowne75/status/1326284851268489217

      https://twitter.com/attackerman/status/1326282360015495169

      Anthony Tata, a retired brigadier general whose nomination for a top Pentagon job collapsed this summer due to Islamophobic tweets and other controversial statements, began overseeing policy for the Defense Department on Tuesday.

      The move was part of a high-level civilian leadership shakeup that began on Monday when President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper. It continued on Tuesday with the departure of the Pentagon's acting policy chief, the installation of a Trump loyalist as the new acting defense secretary's chief of staff, and the resignation of the department's top intelligence official.

      https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/pentagon-top-policy-official-resigns-435693

  9. WeTheBleeple 9
    11 November 2020 at 11:20 am

    Digital blackface.

    Republican caught out posing as gay black man who says all sorts of racist stuff and bags democrats. There's loads of obvious bots swarming republican twitter accounts to decry the election as fake. They pretend to be servicemen, many claim they're leaving their democrat wives (lucky imaginary women) and leaving the country cos they've had enough.

    You couldn't write better comedy than the Four Seasons Total Landscaping followed by this.

    https://twitter.com/JacobRubashkin/status/1326266748727943169

  10. Kay 10
    11 November 2020 at 12:00 pm

    I've been thinking about political ideologies- I can understand how a certain economic/social theory might appeal initially to someone and they want to explore it more, even experiment with it should they reach a position of power.

    But to not acknowledge that said theory is creating no end of grief for society at large and despite all the evidence presented to them will not admit anything needs changing? Is this a case of their egos not wanting to admit they've stuffed up big time and it'd be too embarrassing to do a U-turn, or have they been brainwashed so badly to the point of delusion that their way, and ONLY their way is right, and anything else is wrong?

    I have a friend who has a very strong fixed belief, and no matter what anyone says, and despite all evidence to the contrary this belief never changes. But she has diagnosed schizophrenia and it's a paranoid delusion. She has a pretty valid excuse excuse. What excuse do these politicians have?

    It seems connected to the born-again evangelicals- getting drawn into a belief system to the point of fanaticism, brainwashed to the point of delusion where only their way is the true way.

    I

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1
      11 November 2020 at 1:36 pm

      But to not acknowledge that said theory is creating no end of grief for society at large and despite all the evidence presented to them will not admit anything needs changing? Is this a case of their egos not wanting to admit they've stuffed up big time and it'd be too embarrassing to do a U-turn, or have they been brainwashed so badly to the point of delusion that their way, and ONLY their way is right, and anything else is wrong?

      All of the above?

  11. Dennis Frank 11
    11 November 2020 at 1:07 pm

    Evolution produced elimination of trumpism by natural design: "Foraging societies make short work of any loud-mouthed braggart trumpeting his supposed superiority over the rest." That's anthropologist Chris Boehm quoted in this book:

    In Civilized to Death — The Price of Progress, author Christopher Ryan proposes the most controversial explanation offered today for what is wrong with our world.

    Christopher Boehm has been studying power dynamics in foraging societies for more than four decades. Currently the director of the Jane Goodall Research Center and professor of anthropology and biological sciences at the University of Southern California, he has conducted fieldwork with both human and nonhuman primates and published more than 60 scholarly articles and books on altruism.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/civilized-death/201512/the-evolution-politics-part-ii?amp
    https://medium.com/@nicklicata/book-review-of-civilized-to-death-the-price-of-progress-491e98824fd8

    Tracing the development of altruism and group social control over 6 million years, Christopher argues that our moral sense is a sophisticated defense mechanism that enables individuals to survive and thrive in groups. One of the biggest risks of group living is the possibility of being punished for our misdeeds by those around us. Bullies, thieves, free-riders, and especially psychopaths—those who make it difficult for others to go about their lives—are the most likely to suffer this fate.

    Getting by requires getting along, and this social type of selection, Christopher shows, singles out altruists for survival. This selection pressure has been unique in shaping human nature, and it bred the first stirrings of conscience in the human species. Ultimately, it led to the fully developed sense of virtue and shame that we know today.

    http://www.christopher-boehm.com/books/moral-origins-the-evolution-of-virtue-altruism-and-shame

    Readers with a scientific approach to human nature ought to check out his description of how inequality in social structure seems to have been produced by levelling in hunter/gatherer cultures.

    • Dennis Frank 11.1
      11 November 2020 at 1:23 pm

      Correction: replace produced with eliminated in final paragraph!

    • Ad 11.2
      11 November 2020 at 4:56 pm

      If you think Trump losing the election also eliminates another populist from rising, you are dreaming.

      The conditions that caused Trumpism across the US, Europe, Brazil, UK, Philippines and elsewhere still exist. They are still particularly strong in the United States.

      Pull away from the psycho-trash and look at the world as the electorate tells you it is.

  12. Peter 12
    11 November 2020 at 1:42 pm

    There is hope for the National Party! They got Goldsmith out of their finance role because of his cock-ups around understanding numbers.

    They replaced him with Woodhouse who couldn't count the number of homeless men freeloading in an Auckland inner city isolation hotel. smiley

  13. greywarshark 13
    11 November 2020 at 1:43 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430345/new-complainant-emerges-with-allegations-against-peter-ellis

    It is bad if people can take bites out of Peter after he is dead. If they had a case to make there have been plenty of opportunities. The whole matter has been mishandled starting with the police enquiry.

    • Treetop 13.1
      11 November 2020 at 2:41 pm

      Reported in stuff news. The woman at the centre of the latest allegation was in counselling in 2007 and the counsellor said that she had to report the incident to police to continue counselling.

      This would be unprofessional and I would start with the counsellor.

      I would like to know what is the date of injury which ACC are accepting for this case as I it may need to be changed?

      I doubt that ACC have a process to backdate an error made by a counsellor which ACC accredits. It is my understanding it has to be an error made by ACC to backdate. I am thinking that treatment for the injury was denied by the counsellor but I would need to have this confirmed.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1
        11 November 2020 at 2:50 pm

        I hadn't thought of the ACC side Treetop. I could imagine that your scenario may well be the case.

        • Treetop 13.1.1.1
          11 November 2020 at 3:09 pm

          I know first hand and recently that ACC have been assessing the date of injury incorrectly when it comes to a schedule 3 issue under the Crimes Act 1961.

          There needs to be some sort of review/inquiry into incorrect dates for historical sexual assault claims. I am thinking about historical cases and the outcome of the inquiry into abuse in state and faith based care.

          Having my deemed date of injury changed to when I first attended counselling for the injury was important to me. Even though I could not use the actual date of injury having the date changed from what ACC said it was to what I said it was proved me to be correct and ACC incorrect.

          ACC interpreting the law incorrectly is a serious matter.

          • greywarshark 13.1.1.1.1
            11 November 2020 at 3:42 pm

            The very tight interpretation that ACC takes to prevent them having to help needy people is an example of the Kafkaesque approach we are increasingly finding in our service delivery from so-called government. Is it government when there is an agency that is machine-like in its actions because of factors like having to make a profit from their budget?

            There seems a drive to constantly reduce government spending at the same time as deliberately hurtful actions or inactions of government increase the numbers in need. *Limbo, how low can you go!

            I don't see good results likely to come from that arms length approach from our gummint unless they adopt more kindness and put more money into training the people at the coal face, along with room for some discretion, and less money to the CEOs and top managers. If we can't pay world-class salaries, too bad, we will just have to find reasonably suitable people amongst the NZs considered deadheads under the present system. I think that salaries should be advertised at a recommended rate worked on some sort of maths say 5-10 x the living wage, and invite people to tender for the job with their choice of salary along with a full, verifiable CV. The advertised rate would be a guide of how 'tight' (cost-efficient) we are with top managers.

            * Limbo song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuKBsJoA7jk

            • Treetop 13.1.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2020 at 4:21 pm

              I am going to piss a lot of people off by my comment.

              ACC fails far too many claimants who have a serious accident because of what they cover.

              A small cut in your thumb, having your face bashed in because you were so drunk that you assaulted people, kept playing sport when you had an injury, drove recklessly and did or could have killed someone.

              The minor claims ruin it for the serious claims. This was seen with the EQC my ornament got chipped bla bla and never mind the person who had a shoddy repair and became depressed or tied up with expensive litigation for years. As for the CTV building in Christchurch no one has been prosecuted and if they had been this would not make it right.

              Far too many useless government agencies unaware of ruining people's lives. ACC is at the top of my list as without your health poverty is a certainty.

    • Treetop 13.2
      11 November 2020 at 8:03 pm

      GWS I have given your comment more thought.

      A dead man has rights otherwise the Supreme Court would not be making a judgement to look at quashing a conviction/s.

      It does concern me that the woman making the allegation has not been listened to until now. This would have an impact which was avoidable had she been listened to. I cannot speak for her. I feel she was put in a situation that had she not spoken out again last year she would have not been able to speak out after the Supreme Court decision was made.

      Unintended consequences and an anomalie which ACC would need to cover as organisational failure.

      Who informed the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court have not ignored the woman's complaint?

      To say this is historical is not good enough as it is having an impact now. When the complaint is investigated and settled then the woman can get on with her life.

      • greywarshark 13.2.1
        11 November 2020 at 9:28 pm

        Well I might upset with just the mention that some people can obsess on things and make a case which is unjustifiable. Just because a woman makes a complaint doesn't mean it is valid. That does not mean they can be dismissed but there is a 'moral outrage' on sexual and gender matters at present, and it seems to be becoming the reverse of the often unconcerned attitude of police in the past. The woman may not want to get on with her life even. She might have made the matter the centre of her concerns and never feel satisfied as she has no other strong interest.

        I have read that though counselling face to face is very effective, because it is more expensive than other methods, ACC does not wish to use it. Perhaps they use medication with only a short series of counselling, not sure. Obviously they need to set a limit.

        • Treetop 13.2.1.1
          11 November 2020 at 10:13 pm

          Historical complainants are being cheated because of how they were treated dismissed, minimised, blamed. Not right 50 years ago and not right now.

          I personally found counselling to be a waste of time when it came to the organisational failure because of the harm it caused indirectly and the harm was not recognised then but has now been confirmed to have had a severe impact. So the Limitations Act time frame has expired and they get away with it.

          As for appearing to be obsessive to ask a person to drop having been injured and not being treated fairly is unacceptable.

          Regardless of having strong interests sexual abuse can be intrusive on many levels. I hate sitting about as my mind wanders more so I have structure and purpose in my life.

          When it comes to a false complaint it usually gets discovered and the falsely accused would probably require counselling.

          • greywarshark 13.2.1.1.1
            12 November 2020 at 10:14 am

            edit
            I’m thinking about people who have in the recent past, introduced the theory which debunks past memories. It has caused confusion and seems to come from a position of dismissal and derision really, and they seem indifferent to the mental problems that have arisen from bad treatment. But people do need to come forward as early as possible, to find a way of releasing the pain of being dehumanised. The problem may be different for those actually physically abused to those mentally and those who have had to live in wretched surroundings. Also did it happen in an institution or not – a workplace or private home.

            It seems to me that telling someone would be a good first step; a counselling service with someone with proper credentials (not just assumed because they belong to some organisation, a church, have a certificate that looks authentic). Talking it, then writing down the things that are hard to describe, would be beneficial. Taking it further would then be a second step, after finding out how to go about it and facing the process.

            That is the sort of counselling that I envisage would be helpful. Not Freudian on a couch though. I have read about gestalt chair work, I think it is called – that would be good. I read that Prince Harry carried on with counselling for seven years and someone in that field said that would be counter-productive, just renewing the sad and bad memories all the time and imprinting them in the mind more deeply, rather than coming to terms with the past.

            I know someone who had a bad experience and took the case to Court. That person has regained balance in life but has now an interest in psychology and reads widely, to continually learn of scholarly findings and others' experiences.

            Abuse is something that needs to be acknowledged. Bit I think that it cannot be regarded as a right to delve into the distant past with accusations and a Court case. Not a right but each case should be judged on its merits. This woman must think that she will find peace or be vindicated somehow by the accusation against Peter Ellis. Now he os dead he can't defend himself or if guilty, apologise. He has served a term in prison, as a result of evidence that has been criticised; it is a highly emotional and debated matter. But there's a truism 'If you get what you want, you may find that it is not as satisfying as expected.' What does this woman want or expect? Will she find life better of she can point the finger at him as a bad person, which is now a hollow outcome when he is dead?

            It may be that she can find peace in her mind from another approach, other actions that affirm her as a person of value to others, and particularly to herself. Self-hating is so destructive and must be countered by finding one's positives.

  14. joe90 14
    11 November 2020 at 2:04 pm

    He's going to burn the house down before he leavers.

    WASHINGTON — The White House has removed the scientist responsible for the National Climate Assessment, the federal government’s premier contribution to climate knowledge and the foundation for regulations to combat global warming, in what critics interpreted as the latest sign that the Trump administration intends to use its remaining months in office to continue impeding climate science and policy.

    Michael Kuperberg, executive director of the U.S. Global Change Research Program, which produces the climate assessment, was told Friday that he would no longer lead that organization, people with knowledge of the situation said.

    According to two people close to the administration, he is expected to be replaced by David Legates, a deputy assistant secretary at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration who previously worked closely with climate change denial groups.

    https://archive.li/hbAb2 (nyt)

    • Treetop 14.1
      11 November 2020 at 3:41 pm

      It has become normalised about how many staff are fired by Trump or who leave to avoid being fired. The actual number is unknown.

      Not sure what the severance payment is and is still mounting.

  15. Stunned Mullet 15
    11 November 2020 at 2:46 pm

    What could possibly go wrong ?

    The Reserve Bank will kick off a Funding for Lending scheme in December with few if any conditions on how banks could on-lend the money.

    The scheme, confirmed in its monetary policy statement on Wednesday, will see the central bank provide cheap funding to banks to on-lend to their customers in a bid to further lower retail interest rates.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123364254/reserve-bank-to-start-funding-for-lending-next-month

  16. greywarshark 16
    11 November 2020 at 3:23 pm

    I'm glad we didn't leave people to starve or die of hypothermia. We are good like that.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430331/govt-red-cross-spend-15m-helping-immigrants-stranded-in-nz

  17. ianmac 17
    11 November 2020 at 4:14 pm

    My son showed me a large collection online of complaints regarding cheating, lost ballots, counting errors, bias etc but they were complaints from the Democrats (Demon crats?) in previous elections so nothing new here at all. Except I suppose Donald Trump, the President, is louder than previous President hopefuls.

  18. Dennis Frank 18
    11 November 2020 at 4:30 pm

    The Māori Party has applied for a recount of two Māori seats, despite having no problem with the final results. Māori Party President Che Wilson said the party had no dispute with the final results in the two electorates of Tāmaki Makaurau (Auckland) and Te Tai Hauāuru (covering Tirau to Porirua), which Labour won. However, he said the party had issues with the way whānau were treated at polling booths and it wanted to highlight prejudice against Māori who were trying to vote.

    Perhaps rabid leftists here will accuse them of being infected by Trumpism. Prejudice, eh? If the complainants experienced that, it's a serious matter. Could just be perception, not reality. Will be interesting to see if the vote count changes…

    • Phillip ure 18.1
      11 November 2020 at 5:14 pm

      Did you effin' even read the content of their complaint..?…these are serious issues they are talking about….um..!..could you enlighten me as to where you sit on the political spectrum..?…

    • Drowsy M. Kram 18.2
      11 November 2020 at 5:14 pm

      "Perhaps rabid leftists here will accuse them of being infected by Trumpism. Prejudice, eh?"

      Have fun doling out labels Dennis. Do you wear your 'Rabid Centrist' badge with pride?

      "This past week, democracy spoke and we voted out the bigot that led our land for the past four years. As we celebrate the historic election, it’s hard not to be saddened by the fact that over seventy million Americans voted to keep him in power. Looking back on the years since he first announced a run for presidency, as well as all of his antics attempting to comment on politics prior, it is clear that the outgoing president is an inherently racist person. Every thing he has said, every policy he has pushed, and every trick he has tried to pull has had underlying racist motives — from calling others rapists and shitholes, to separating and caging refugee families, failing to condemn white supremacy, freely using a variety of derogatory terms, pulling out of deals with allies that aim for a more globalized and clean earth,… and worst of all, modeling to American people that it is all okay."
      https://independent-americans.medium.com/exploiting-racism-for-personal-gain-72a763278e44

    • Draco T Bastard 18.3
      11 November 2020 at 5:34 pm

      If the complainants experienced that, it's a serious matter.

      That would be a serious matter but how would that affect the vote count?

      Will be interesting to see if the vote count changes…

      It's inevitable that the vote count will change as they're counted manually and humans make mistakes.

      EDIT:
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123363210/mori-party-applies-for-recount-in-seats-to-highlight-prejudice-in-vote-process

      He said the 5 per cent coat-tailing threshold to enter Parliament was unreachable for any indigenous party and needed to be halved for Māori seats.

      And calling for more racist laws that benefit Māori and oppress pakeha.

  19. Sean Carroll 19
    11 November 2020 at 5:09 pm

    Have I overlooked it but does anyone here care about the lack of action by the RBNZ and our government at the crazy house price rises raging at the moment, especially in Auckland? Surely waiting till March to slap LVRs back on investor mortgages will only exacerbate the situation in the coming weeks and months. I hoped that first home buyers would have a better chance with lower interest rates but it seems that increasing investors’ housing stock is OK with this lot. I am concerned that this may be the old government continuing to do little while saying a great deal. Even the REINZ have expressed concern.

    • Phillip ure 19.1
      11 November 2020 at 5:27 pm

      It was quoted as being 'to stimulate the economy'….I guess ardern/robertson missed that economics 101 lecture where the maxim was stated that the most efficient way to stimulate any economy is to give money to the poorest..for the simple fact that money goes straight back into the economy..thru the tills of retailers/service-providors…whereas giving to rich just means that they get richer…so it is not economic-logic that is driving ardern…with her refusal to help the poorest…and to just give more to the rich…so they can buy more rentals/increase the size of their pile…and of course arderns' new tory friends wouldn't like her helping the poorest…so what with that..and the focus groups (vox-pop on steroids ..with all the intellectual rigor of those always tedious exercises in giving the incoherent a voice)..these drive the decision making of this government…in fact..when ardern is asked about helping the poorest…she should just do a lily tomlin..and say "focus-group says 'no!'.."

    • Draco T Bastard 19.2
      11 November 2020 at 5:29 pm

      Have I overlooked it but does anyone here care about the lack of action by the RBNZ and our government at the crazy house price rises raging at the moment, especially in Auckland?

      I've mentioned the hyper-inflation in the housing market driven by bank lending a few times.

      I can only surmise that the government like it because it pumps billions of dollars into the economy every year without the government having 'borrow' the money and thus helps keep the economy going despite the huge amounts of poverty that its causing. And, of course, the house owners like it because they have huge amounts of income from not doing anything of value.

      • Sean Carroll 19.2.1
        11 November 2020 at 6:23 pm

        Thanks. I am very concerned by this widening of the economic divisions within this society. I see that rents are increasing where I live in Auckland. With high unemployment and low benefit incomes, I can only deduce that our high rate of ‘child poverty’ will increase while asset owners like property investors get wealthier. I did not think this government wanted this. I wander what this governemnt’s constituency really is.

  20. mac1 20
    11 November 2020 at 6:45 pm

    Fascinated to see that the National announcement of its spokespeople lineup seems to have totally not been commented on today on the Standard on its release.

    My walking mate remarked that it only made about the fifth item in the news, after Covid, West Indians, etc.

    Collins said everyone would have to pull their weight as they've only got 33 seats. Why would she have to say that about her self-described 'strong team'?

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