Open mike 11/09/2010

46 comments on “Open mike 11/09/2010 ”

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1. luva 1

   11 September 2010 at 6:45 am

   Interesting.

   Maybe he is not the devil

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10672629
   • BLiP 1.1

     11 September 2010 at 7:12 am

     ring ring . . . ring ring . . . ring ring . . .

     “uh, hello . . .”

     “Bazzzzzzzaaah, sssup!”

     “who’s this”

     “its John, John from Nuh Zeeelun”

     “oh, hi John.”

     “Jez wanna say thanks. Thanks for sending out that chap and his kind words/

     “What chap is that?”

     “You know, Kurt, from the nuclear industry . . . the one that says we only need one nuclear station for the whole country”

     “No worries, John, gotta go”

     “the Hobbit says hello”

     “That’s good. Love to Bronagh. Really must be off”

     “We had an earthquake, you know, quite a big one”

     “Sorry to hear that. I sure you have it under control. Bye for now”

     “Yeah, it was a real shocker. Hey, did you hear about the weather in Bagdhad . . . shi’ite in the morning, sunni in the afternoon . . . hehehehe, good one, eh? Maurice told me that one . . . hello . . . hello”
   • Marty G 1.2

     11 September 2010 at 7:48 am

     What’s he going to say?

     Not something undiplomatic, eh?
     • Tigger 1.2.1

       11 September 2010 at 8:58 am

       Key is defined by what others think of him. He has no personality save what is constructed around him by others.

       He doesn’t take stands, he occupies ‘ground’ within which he can shift either left or right depending on poll results. He doesn’t have principles, he has slogans. He isn’t a leader, he’s an announcer (with the diction of a drunk).

       And by the way Kurt, Key can’t even remember where he stood on the 1981 Tour so don’t expect him to cough up any opinion on nuclear issues that dates back later than about 2003 and that doesn’t change to suit the audience. The idea of that man representing our nuclear-free country on stage is a monumental joke. Him getting kudos from it only proves to me that you need pride before a fall. Fall is coming JK.
       • luva 1.2.1.1

         11 September 2010 at 10:01 am

         See Tigger, I agree wth you to a large degree. I do not think Key makes decsions based on any strong principles or ideology. He is more pragmatic and follow public opinion.

         This runs in complete contrast with what some of our friends on the left say who firmly believe he is running a hard right agenda.

         How can the left have such differing views of a man who is in the news every night?
         • Tigger 1.2.1.1.1

           11 September 2010 at 10:04 am

           Pragmatic and mob rule aren’t the same thing. Tyranny by the majority, that’s what governs us now.
           • luva 1.2.1.1.1.1

             11 September 2010 at 10:11 am

             True

             But isnt that the consequence of living in a democracy. The minority will never agree with the majority who rule them
         • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.2

           11 September 2010 at 10:11 am

           He is running a hard right agenda – it’s just hidden behind the appearance of listening to the public and taking it one cautious step at a time.
           • luva 1.2.1.1.2.1

             11 September 2010 at 10:16 am

             Oh Draco

             give it a rest. You think think Labour are right of centre
             • Draco T Bastard …

               11 September 2010 at 11:15 am

               That’s because they are but that doesn’t have anything to do with NACTs hard right agenda.
2. The Chairman 2

   11 September 2010 at 6:53 am

   Capital & Coast District Health Board has been criticised by a Kapiti kaumatua for failing to recover hundreds of thousands of dollars earmarked for health
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/4114401/DHB-decision-disgraceful-says-iwi-elder
   • Descendant Of Smith 2.1

     11 September 2010 at 7:35 am

     “Board planning and funding director Sandra Williams said that, after taking legal advice, the board decided it would not try to retrieve the remaining $203,000 because it believed Hora Te Pai performed to contract. ”

     So a non-Maori firm who is contracted by the DHB and out of the profits made invests in property and whatever else they wish is OK?

     Apparently they provided the service and what they do with the profit is up to them isn’t it?

     If they provided the service they were contracted for then can’t they do what they like with the money? Do different rules apply to Maori organisations than Pakeha or corporate ones?
     Contracting out of home help to private firms is a good example – plenty of those companies have invested their profits in flash cars, property and so on.

     The real question surely is why if it took such a smaller amount than paid to deliver the service did the DHB pay so much?

     Do the DHB even have a clue whether the service was delivered and how do they know or not know?

     Do the qualifications and pay rates of the workers in these organisations even remotely match the expertise and pay rates of those public servants who used to provide the services i.e. less wages, less skilled people more profit – worse service?

     Is contracting this out even making a difference in actually improving Maori health?

     Has the organisation been set up as a trust? If so then the trust documents will clearly identify what the trust can use the funds for?

     Why do we have a profit making contracting out model anyway?
     • The Chairman 2.1.1

       11 September 2010 at 8:12 am

       Apparently the money was earmarked for health but spent elsewhere.

       Furthermore, an earlier report from the board said the runanga repeatedly failed to meet its obligations.

       It smells fishy.
       • Jenny 2.1.1.1

         11 September 2010 at 10:24 am

         That over $200,000 unaccounted for by Pakeha health providers is quickly forgiven and written off. Imagine the blaring headlines excoriating Maori if even half that amount was mislaid by a Maori health provider.

         When it comes to how our society looks after the ‘establishment’ and the ‘the rest’ – It’s been a week of double standards.

         captcha – “bizarre”
         • Descendant Of Smith 2.1.1.1.1

           11 September 2010 at 11:19 am

           Umm the provider was Maori.
3. Descendant Of Smith 3

   11 September 2010 at 9:20 am

   What in any sense does earmarked for health mean?

   Is there a clause in the contract that says the organisation is not allowed to make a profit? That if it does so the profit must be returned?

   The DHB provides the funding the organisation spends it.

   It’s no more fishy than a child care centre buying a new building from their profit. While people may believe outcomes were not achieved the legal advice is that they were. While many locals believe that the money invested in the shonky business enterprises was wrong and that nepotism and self indulgence was rife and the money could have better been used to improve even further Maori Health unless their trust documents or contracts restrict them from doing so they can do what they like – that’s just what lots of companies / organisations who take government funding do.

   It’s the model that’s wrong not the behaviour of those getting the funding – as long as a lawyer decides they met their outcomes they are just behaving like many other organisations whether Maori or not.

   It’s a model that drives down the costs to the workers and creates profit out of providing services where their was none (profit) before.

   If the DHB is unhappy with the service they simply have to stop funding them and either provide the service themselves or pay someone else.

   The difficulty in some areas, particularly rural, the public system has been destroyed and there ain’t’ much to choose from.

   Taumarunui is a good example where Waikato don’t care less – in fact many patients going to Waikato get greeted with ” What are you still living in that dump for?” and the local providers have semi and unskilled staff providing services they don’t fully understand.

   They used to have a good hospital.

   It just irks me that it’s so easy to attack the Maori organisations when the model itself is flawed and those organisations are behaving no different to many others or simply lack the support and real monitoring and mentoring from the funding provider to improve.

   Somewhere tucked away in the Treasury guidelines is a clear direction that when funding goes from government departments to third parties it’s not enough to hand over the money and then leave them to it and then moan later if outcomes are not achieved. The agency funding is still responsible for ensuring that the organisation can manage financially and deliver the services. This includes helping them and proving support when things start going awry. Not whinging at the end.
   • The Chairman 3.1

     11 September 2010 at 6:31 pm

     Earmarked for health sounds as if public funding that was allocated for health services (and not private profit) was spent elsewhere.
     • jcuknz 3.1.1

       12 September 2010 at 9:50 am

       If you are going to use private services then you must expect that a proportion will be raked off as profit … that is the difference between public and private service … if private service doesn’t make a profit what is the point of them doing it. Private service MAY be more efficient but not always as NACT would have us believe. It is up to the controlling authority to ensure that the privates perform the service properly and don’t rake of an unduly large profit for the work performed. It is essentially a core function of privates to make as much out of the situation as possible, apart from a few altruistic individuals … it also applies in public services except the profits show themselves in other ways such as flash offices, conferences at expensive resorts, and other perks ….it is human nature I’m afraid.
   • The Chairman 3.2

     12 September 2010 at 1:38 pm

     Just to clarify, race has nothing to do with this.

     My concerns are with the public expenditure and the message being sent.

     A flawed funding model is more susceptible to unscrupulous behavior.

     Some of the misused funding had been repaid, but the board decided it would not try to retrieve the remainder with the board saying the contracts were concluded satisfactorily, but an earlier report from the board said the runanga repeatedly failed to meet its obligations and demanded all the money be returned?

     We have a report by PricewaterhouseCoopers being described as an audit that the report’s authors deny, which the board used to revise its figures?

     Taxpayer funding meant for health going into other accounts or failed ventures?

     Accusation of a cover-up?

     It sure smells fishy.
4. joe bloggs 4

   11 September 2010 at 11:02 am

   Interesting … more evidence emerges that John Key may not be the Devil after all.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4119569/Key-shows-no-sign-of-shaky-hands

   Looks like his ‘hard right’ agenda is resonating out there in reality-land
   • ianmac 4.1

     11 September 2010 at 11:54 am

     Yes Joe. Well spotted. There is a “but” in Tracey’s column however. While The PM and team have been appearing in many places on the ground and saying all the right things, there is a an aftermath. If there are many, especially the poor, who end up worse off in spite of the positive talk, then the goodwill will shrink. For example many are now accutely aware of the importance of clean water, and recent moves to increase dairying (ECan etc) will cause many to respond accordingly. Wait for the other shoe to drop, or the tap to stop flowing.
     • Tigger 4.1.1

       11 September 2010 at 6:07 pm

       Where are the jobs? No good steering us through a recession if the recovery is in the crapper? And judging the quake at this point is a joke – the rest test on that will come with time. What i read here is that Key didn’t cry in a heap when faced with hardships and should get a medal. Bull.
5. john 5

   11 September 2010 at 12:00 pm

   Sorry to be momentous, but we live in momentous times! Here is an article about the end of the Oil Age and we are now in transition to eventually a post fossil fuels civilization! The era of the Growth Fiesta is over, we are in the Century of contraction and coping with the hangover of the 20th Century’s growth Party,which I certainly enjoyed as well!
   http://www.countercurrents.org/whipple090910.htm
   That’s why I argue we need a tight cohesive society where everyone is treated decently but everyone must pull their weight.Among other things that means doing away with large wealth and income differences so that we all feel we’re in this together:-not having one class exploiting another.
6. john 6

   11 September 2010 at 12:38 pm

   Here’s a link showing the Irish protesting against the War Criminal Tony Blair. Of course the Irish have been on the receiving end of Brit War Crimes during their long and bitter history till Independence. He was on Close Up the other night saying Saddam had to be removed due to WMD(A Lie) even though UN Weapons Inspectors has certified Iraq free of the same and none were found afterwards. International Law is crystal clear,The Nuremburg declaration, He continues to swan around while Bush skulks in his Crawford ranch.The end of the Oil Age coming up plus sucking up to Israel are the real reasons for this War Crime causing the deaths of over 1,000,000 Iraqis.
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5SRS77EW8g
   • john 6.1

     11 September 2010 at 7:47 pm

     I really don’t have anything else to say about this sickening spectacle — which is being compounded in Britain, where I live, by the sight today of Tony Blair’s murder-tainted mug plastered on the front of the main newspapers, as he makes the rounds pushing his new book, doling out “exclusive interviews” full of crocodile tears for the soldiers he had murdered in the war crime he committed and the “great suffering” of the Iraqi people which, goodness gracious, he never foresaw and feels, gosh, really bad about. All this laced with venomous comments about his former colleagues — those who, like Gordon Brown, sold their souls to advance Blair’s vision of aggressive war abroad and corporate rapine at home — along with, of course, earnest protestations of his God-directed good intentions, and his unwavering belief that killing a million innocent human beings in Iraq was “the right thing to do.” Pol Pot could not have been more blindly self-righteous than this wretched moral cretin.

     I will say again what I have said here many, many times before: What quadrant of hell is hot enough for such men?

     Words might fail me, but wise man William Blum has a few that put the “end of combat operations in Iraq” in their proper perspective. Let’s give him the last word here [the ellipses are in the original text]:

     No American should be allowed to forget that the nation of Iraq, the society of Iraq, has been destroyed, ruined, a failed state. The Americans, beginning 1991, bombed for 12 years, with one excuse or another; then invaded, then occupied, overthrew the government, killed wantonly, tortured … the people of that unhappy land have lost everything — their homes, their schools, their electricity, their clean water, their environment, their neighborhoods, their mosques, their archaeology, their jobs, their careers, their professionals, their state-run enterprises, their physical health, their mental health, their health care, their welfare state, their women’s rights, their religious tolerance, their safety, their security, their children, their parents, their past, their present, their future, their lives … More than half the population either dead, wounded, traumatized, in prison, internally displaced, or in foreign exile … The air, soil, water, blood and genes drenched with depleted uranium … the most awful birth defects … unexploded cluster bombs lie in wait for children to pick them up … an army of young Islamic men went to Iraq to fight the American invaders; they left the country more militant, hardened by war, to spread across the Middle East, Europe and Central Asia … a river of blood runs alongside the Euphrates and Tigris … through a country that may never be put back together again.
     • prism 6.1.1

       12 September 2010 at 11:28 am

       John – Put your sunglasses on and get some fresh air now. Looking too closely and for too long without relief at the background to man-made disasters is like looking at the sun, bad for the eyes and the brain and it can lead to depression..
       • john 6.1.1.1

         13 September 2010 at 6:12 pm

         Hi prism! It’s true a Buddhist insight is : If we truly felt and understood the suffering that’s in the World we would die from grief, otherwise we’d become Jesus figures. I agree to survive and stay psychologically and emotionally healthy we have to ignore and isolate ourselves from the suffering of creation, and there is nothing wrong with that because we have the imperative: we must survive. We also have the imperative to be real which counters: Face reality if you partake of the suffering of others you are actually strangely more alive! But then you must do something to help relieve and cure that suffering otherwise one is not truly decent and Humane.The latter attitude leads to self sacrifice to remedy the ills of this Planet.Yes we must retreat and then return to in kiwi style really do something concrete and real to reduce the misery that’s out there.
   • john 6.2

     12 September 2010 at 11:09 am

     The UK’s democratic rule of law is phony in respect to crimes of its leaders: Tony Blair should have been taken to Court( Treasonous betrayal of his own people’s right to reasoned and truthful choice) for the deliberate misleading,indeed outright lying,to the UK Parliament as to the justification for invading Iraq.He treated the British Parliament and People with supreme contempt and pimped their right to choose Peace or War for subservience to a Foreign Power,The US.
     http://maxkeiser.com/2010/09/09/keiser-report-teaser-911-insiders-escaping-extradition/
     • john 6.2.1

       13 September 2010 at 7:08 pm

       Is the UK State worthy of respect it’s just a bitch to the American shit scene?! Really the UK is rubbish americanised trash!
       • prism 6.2.1.1

         13 September 2010 at 10:27 pm

         John There was an LP written by Leslie Bricusse et al about Britain and politicians called How to Win an Election or not Lose by Very Much. Think it had the Goons doing it.

         There was a good sketch with an old UK politician mulling over the relationship with his USA counterpart and how he kept sending over large envelopes marked Confidential Nuclear Detergent (Deterrent). The old guy didn’t know what it was about, decided he wasn’t interested and gave all the stuff to some Russian johnny he knew who wanted the stamps for his collection. It was a very funny dig at old guard pollies in the UK trying to keep up with the USA and its ploys.
7. nzfp 7

   11 September 2010 at 12:41 pm

   Can someone please explain to me what Afghanistan had to do with the attacks on the WTC on 9/11/2001?

   Especially considering it was the justification for the US to invade and consequently we have lost a New Zealand son in the NATO war.

   If Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 then someone in our government and in NATO needs to answer for the death of one of our soliders!
8. travellerev 8

   11 September 2010 at 1:32 pm

   The rock has a steal a slogan contest and promises cash if you vote. One of the slogans is: Never trust a ticking Arab. Apart from the utter racist stupidity I thought it would pay to remind people that today we remember the victims of the events on 9/11. Today being the 9th anniversary of that fateful day. The events of that day making it perfectly acceptable for a NZ radio station to paint more then a billion people with the same racist brush. A bit like saying that since the Jews crucified Christ therefore it’s OK to kill Jews, and argument used for centuries, not by Arabs by the way but by Christians.

   Who are those victims? About 3000 people died on that day and among them was a New Zealander, in the aftermath more than a million Iraqis were killed, more than four million were displaced. Hundreds of thousand Afghanis were killed both countries were polluted with DU and 70.000 heroes and first responders are ill and dying of the toxins they breathed and swallowed that day and in the days that followed. More than half a million people exposed to the dust in New York are described as ticking time bombs with regards to their health and did I mention that none of those people including the heroes of that day can count on any financial aid with regards to their healthcare?

   All of this based on a very badly thought out official Conspiracy theory telling us that 19 Saudi Arab young men on the orders from an old Saudi man living in a cave in Afghanistan hijacked four planes one of which crashed and two of which crashed into the twin towers of the WTC collapsing three huge sky scrapers as a result and last but not least one plane allegedly crashed into the Pentagon after almost impossible manoeuvres.

   Here are some links to make it easier to understand why ticking people in general should be distrusted and why it is still important to have a full and independent investigation into what really happened that day.
9. Mac1 9

   11 September 2010 at 2:16 pm

   A small group of young German men, on the orders of a deranged Austrian war veteran living in a mountain eyrie, on the night of 31 August 1939 dressed in Polish uniforms and seized a radio station, broadcasting a short anti-German message in Polish, making the attack and the broadcast look like the work of anti-German Polish saboteurs. They left a German Silesian dressed to look like a saboteur, killed by lethal injection, given gunshot wounds, at the scene.

   How WWII started. Truth can be stranger than conspiracy theory, FWIW.
   • Locus 9.1

     11 September 2010 at 4:38 pm

     Thanks for that. I’m amazed that I didn’t know that, despite having been bombarded by dozens of British TV documentaries about WW2. I haven’t researched what you said but I’m willing to believe it 🙂
     Conspiracies are fun though. And it’s so easy for conspiracy theorists to invent something highly improbable as an explanation, by drawing attention to the fact that there isn’t tangible evidence for every single aspect of the highly probable. Isn’t it funny that conspiracy theorists believe every notion and bizarre idea that other conspiracy theorists come up with?
     And if you want to doubt a conspiracy theory because you think it’s wacky? The conspiracy theorists have the perfect answer: you are just another poor deluded fool who is being conned by those all-powerful clandestine forces that really run the world.
     • Mac1 9.1.1

       11 September 2010 at 9:43 pm

       Now that the point is made, here’s a reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

       The Germans needed a casus belli to attack Poland. A bit like the Vietnam war needed Tonkin Bay, and Bush and Blair needed WMD.
       • Mac1 9.1.1.1

         11 September 2010 at 9:54 pm

         Then there is the conspiracy theory about the conspiracy.

         http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Gleiwitz&TheStartOfWW2-GlenI.html
     • travellerev 9.1.2

       12 September 2010 at 2:12 am

       Hi locus,

       I whole heartedly agree with you. In this case millions of people believed without a shred of proof while the two towers still stood burning that 19 young Saudis got a hold of four planes with box cutters because an old man who needed dialysis living in a cave in Afghanistan told them to and while they had only a few hours of flying lessons were able to fly huge Boeings on improbable courses, manoeuvring at impossible speed. And when they flew two planes into the twin towers three buildings collapsed in free fall speed (6.5, 10 and 11 seconds) making demolition experts obsolete and suspending the laws of nature.

       I mean how gullible do you have to be to believe this crap. Eh?

       But I’m sure you’re smarter then that. You waited until scientific and criminal investigations by independent well funded researchers was done before you formed your opinion. Yep, I’m sure you did.
       • nzfp 9.1.2.1

         12 September 2010 at 11:30 am

         Hey travellerev,
         Are you talking about the same “19 young Saudis [that] got a hold of four planes with box cutters” about whom Robert S. Mueller III, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation made the following statements during an address to the Commonwealth Club of California
         San Francisco, CA on April 19, 2002?

         […] The hijackers also left no paper trail. In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper – either here in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere – that mentioned any aspect of the September 11th plot. […]

         To paraphrase Mueller – there is no evidence linking the hijackers to the 9/11 plot. More importantly there is ZERO evidence linking Afghanistan to 9/11. So why did our son [our – collectively all NZr’s] die in Afghanistan?!? Someone in the National Government – McCully, Key – needs to be accountable for that and needs to explain it to the rest of us – especially to the family of our boy.

         RedLogix is right – forget about the consipiracy theories – just concentrate on the facts.
       • nzfp 9.1.2.2

         12 September 2010 at 1:09 pm

         Hey guys, considering that Robert S. Mueller, Director of the FBI stated that the F.B.I had “[…] not uncovered a single piece of paper – either [here] in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere – that mentioned any aspect of the September 11th plot […]” how is it that all of the U.S. corporate media knew as soon as the first building was hit that it was 19 Arab hijackers following the orders of Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan that did 9/11? If the F.B.I could not find any evidence linking Afghanistan to 9/11 by April 2002 how did the media know on the day [9/11 2001] that Osama did it with the complicity of the Taliban in Afghanistan? How did they know but the F.B.I could not find any evidence? How did they know?
   • RedLogix 9.2

     11 September 2010 at 5:59 pm

     The phenomonon of ‘conspiracy theories’ is fraught with complication. Of course there are conspiracies Tonto. Whenever two or more people plot in private it’s a conspiracy.

     Whenever the public version of events seems incomplete or unsatisfying for any reason, there is the entirely reasonable suspicion that there is a private version of events, as yet unknown, that will fill the missing links or provide a more fulfilling narrative.

     Sometimes events just unfold is such a tragi-comic sequence of blunders that the human mind rebels; we ask ourselves, surely such incompetence was not just indistinguishable from maliciousness, it had to be orchestrated by some malevolent actor?

     Sometimes the pattern recognition machine in our head (the same one that sees a spooky sentience in the captcha word) will derive meanings from a chaos of events … meanings that are not real, but feel very real all the same.

     And the professional machievellian actor will know well how to exploit all these psychological loopholes, by creating a smoke-screen for his actions, re-directing attention as would any stage magician, with his own campaign of misinformation.

     Even the sceptic falls into the trap of projecting from assumptions about everyday experiences; he assumes that just because in the normal run of events secrets are very hard to keep, that this must always be true. Forgetting that the whole purpose of some organisations is to act secretly. It’s indeed what they do best, and that us ordinary people would never so much as guess what they know and do.

     And some people just like using the term ‘conspiracy theory’ as a lazy term of abuse.

     My conclusion, be very careful before investing too much into any ‘conspiracy theory’. But neither is it wise to close all doors forever. There is still plenty most of us haven’t even imagined yet.
     • Locus 9.2.1

       12 September 2010 at 1:10 pm

       Agreed. The important thing is to keep doubting and keep questioning, and the best questions require CTs to be the simplest and most convincing explanation . “Favour the simplest explanation that fits the known evidence.” And, tend towards believing “the more convincing dramatic backdrop to the events in question.”
       http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/08/on_internet_conspiracy_theories.html
       • rosy 9.2.1.1

         12 September 2010 at 3:07 pm

         …. and then be willing to move with the evidence as it is confirmed, or sideways as further evidence emerges. But it’s gotta be evidence either way, not cobbling together lots of unrelated bits and pieces and drawing a target around them and saying bullseye!.
10. outofbed 10

    11 September 2010 at 5:22 pm

    Early Christmas for supermarkets
    Xmas shopping in September wtf?
    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      11 September 2010 at 11:13 pm

      Xmas has, apparently, always been about celebrating God. It’s just a question of which god. A couple of thousand years ago before the rise of Christianity a few pagan gods were celebrated then came the rise of Christianity and the worship of Christ and giving and now we have the rise of Mammon and the worship of greed and taking.
      • pollywog 10.1.1

        12 September 2010 at 2:31 am

        …and now we have the rise of Mammon and the worship of greed and taking.

        let’s not forget Moloch and the sacrificing of our childrens long term future for present short term gain…

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1. The Standard: posted on 10 September 2010 at 6:14 pm

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