Open mike 11/09/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 11th, 2012 - 229 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

229 comments on “Open mike 11/09/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    11 September 2012 at 6:17 am

    Assad forces attack refugee camp.

    http://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/palestinian-camp-in-syria-stormed-by-assads-troops/

    Maybe these are the foreign infiltrators that Colonial Viper is talking about.

    • Colonial Viper 1.1
      11 September 2012 at 8:46 am

      Estimates are over ten thousand foreign fighters in Syria, Jenny. Some of them are now expecting to receive artillery and AA guns from France.

      Others aren’t even interested in Syrian politics or the Syrian people, they just want to speed the set up of a Muslim religious state in Syria to replace the secular government there currently.

      • Jenny 1.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 4:33 pm

        Not only are you prepared to overlook Assad’s appalling human rights record. You keep making up facts that you think in your mind excuse mass murder.

        How about providing a link to your claim of “over ten thousand foreign fighters in Syria”. And If you can, not the same sort of rubbish you used to back up your fictitious claim that the West was supplying the rebels with Weapons. That an anonymous “diplomat’ said France “may” supply weapons to the rebels type nonsense.

      • Vicky32 1.1.2
        11 September 2012 at 7:10 pm

        Estimates are over ten thousand foreign fighters in Syria, Jenny. Some of them are now expecting to receive artillery and AA guns from France.

        Pilger has some interesting things to say about this issue..
        http://www.zcommunications.org/the-liberal-way-to-run-the-world-improve-or-well-kill-you-by-john-pilger

    • muzza 1.2
      11 September 2012 at 9:25 am

      Hi Jenny,

      Just wondering how you validate the authenticity of the informtion which you post here.

      Same question applies to all information we try to decifer these days, because most of it exists to deceive, and misdirect.

      What is known is that the ME situation is not what you believe it to be, simply look at what has happened in Libya and Egypt to see what is happening in Syria. It is complex, awful and tragic what is happening to those innocent people around the world who are simply collatoral for these “wars”, and absolutely it is right that people should speak on behalf of those who are treated as expendable.

      It is wrong however to ignore the obvious facts that what is going on in Syria, is not as simple as you would like to believe it, and what will your position be (if)/when Assad goes, and Syria its people, the woman and children become dominated by more draconian, fundamentalist mindsets, than what you make out Assad to be?

      What will you say at that time Jenny?

      • Professor Longhair 1.2.1
        11 September 2012 at 1:51 pm

        “What will you say at that time Jenny?”

        She will say exactly what British state television, Fox News and MSNBC say. Just as she has been doing all along.

      • Jenny 1.2.2
        11 September 2012 at 6:21 pm

        ……what is going on in Syria, is not as simple as you would like to believe it,

        muzza

        Muzza you are the one being simplistic. Your cartoon caricature of Arabs, in particular Syrians, as religious extremists who automatically want to impose sharia law and return Syria back to the middle ages, if the dictatorship is removed is actually quite racist.

        Yes, nominally the majority of Syrians are believers, and probably in greater proportion than New Zealanders. But just because their religious faith, and culture is different to ours does not make it inferior or more extreme than Western Judeo Christian faith.

        Your assumption that if the Syrian people throw off the rule of the dictatorship that they will replace it with something worse. That Arabs cannot be trusted with democracy, is in my opinion, based on little more than Islamaphobic prejudice.

        …..what will your position be (if)/when Assad goes, and Syria its people, the woman and children become dominated by more draconian, fundamentalist mindsets, than what you make out Assad to be?

        muzza

        Muzza, if in the unlikely event that the Syrian people replace the Assad terroristic regime with something even worse….. I will tell you my “position”

        I will not overlook mass murder and torture.
        I will not support the strafing of civilian towns and cities from the air.
        I will not support the machine gunning of peaceful demonstrators.
        I will not condone the detention torture and murder of the wives and children of soldiers as a justifiable tactic to keep soldiers from deserting.

        I will not ignore the existence of death squads deliberately organised on sectarian lines to deliberately exploit differences in race or religion to keep a corrupt and murderous tyrant in power.

        Not under any circumstances. No matter how complicated..

        The question for such clever people like yourself. Is why do you do all of those thing now?

    • joe90 1.3
      11 September 2012 at 1:13 pm

      Maybe these are the foreign infiltrators that Colonial Viper is talking about

      According to the Syrian National Council media officer Ahmad al-Halabi there are more than 30 opposition groups fighting in Syria and Jacques Beres, co-founder of medical charity Medecins Sans Frontieres, has reported that foreign jihadists are involved so take your pick.

    • fnjckg 1.4
      11 September 2012 at 6:35 pm

      i have to rewrite this (like do a 100 lines) as it disappeared

      i am really sorry to all the people i hurt and or damaged on my path through life

      -my mother, stepfather and brothers
      -my daughter
      -my bioligical siblings ( i hope the m.c understand)
      -my friends and former partners
      -the employers i let down
      -the people i lied to
      -the people i stole from

      i have not been very well most of my life and this led to some unhelpful paths
      i have learnt many things and will continue to keep many secrets

      often, i lashed out violently or angrily, generally under the influence of some form of medication,
      self or otherwise. sometimes Chris, i could not even control myself, i would feel so hurt and angry

      for some reason, God let me live this long, even though i was often harmful to those around me.
      since my revelation, which included an awareness of my own sins, i have only tried to be helpful

      i hope you understand. i was, and will continue to be, a man of Peace

      Please forgive me. i am truly sorry

  2. Morrissey 2
    11 September 2012 at 6:55 am

    Americans are not as stupid as the media think they are

    What happens when people are given an opportunity to say what they really think about the media? Well, have a look at this clip from 2006, celebrating ten years of MSNBC. At the time, Israel was killing hundreds of civilians in Lebanon to punish them for supporting the Hezbollah resistance movement. As usual, the U.S. media, including MSNBC, was monolithically supportive of Israel’s aggression.

    But people, no matter how saturated with propaganda, still think for themselves, as you’ll appreciate if you watch all ten minutes of this video.

    Watching the forced cheering and flag-waving here, the first impression is that this Philadelphia crowd is pretty mindless. But as it goes on, you see many of them are actually thoughtful and concerned people.

    The problems here are one Michael Smerconish, an extreme right wing Catholic radio jock, and MSNBC host Chris Matthews, an ostensibly “liberal” broadcaster who is too scared to say what he really thinks.

    Watch from 1:20 to 1:52, when Smerconish claims that people don’t care about the Israeli assault on Lebanon as much as they do about the comments of a Hollywood actor. Host Chris Matthews asks how many people think Mel Gibson is more important than what is happening in Lebanon? There is complete silence, then someone yells: “MSNBC does!”

    Then, at the 4:52 mark, listen to the reaction just after Smerconish claims that all that stations like MSNBC do is give people what they want.

  3. Bored 3
    11 September 2012 at 7:00 am

    Calling Redlogix plus anybody else who attended the Steven Keen events

    Anything we should know, worth commenting on?

  4. Poission 4
    11 September 2012 at 7:38 am

    The PM thinks AUS has Dutch disease,and the high Australasian exchange rates are a symptom of the disease.

    http://lexicon.ft.com/Term?term=Dutch-disease

    Dutch disease is the negative impact on an economy of anything that gives rise to a sharp inflow of foreign currency, such as the discovery of large oil reserves. The currency inflows lead to currency appreciation, making the country’s other products less price competitive on the export market.

    In the NZ case the discovery of high overnight interest rates,( In comparison to often negative returns in Europe) make it a haven to park substantial short term overnight deposits.

    “So even if the government said, ‘well look, we want to have a lower exchange rate,’ how could we do that? The answer would be we’d have to move away from a floating exchange rate,” Key said.

    “We’re a massive capital importer – we don’t have the luxury that some countries have. And if you look at what [intervention is] currently costing the Swiss National Bank, New Zealand cannot afford to follow a policy like that. It’s inherently very risky,” he said.

    Key said while new Reserve Bank Governor Graeme Wheeler was coming on board very soon, and was in the process of having to renegotiating a new policy targets agreement with the Minister of Finance, the early advice he’d had was it was very unlikely there would be any significant changes to the PTA.

    “If there was an easy way of moving our exchange rate down, certainly [with] the New Zealand-US exchange rate we’d certainly do that, but I don’t think it’s easy,” Key said.

    In effect the cash and carry (arbitrage) industries can in effect borrow at close to zero say in Europe and invest in NZ which distorts the capital flows.

    The simplest constraint is to reduce exposure to short term borrowing and increase exposure to long term borrowing.Here an inverse stepped witholding tax for non NZ residents by increasing tax for short term investments,and decreasing for longer investments would decrease short term fluctuations.

    Increasing the WHT to 17.5% for non residents for less then 1 yr would be a clear signal.

    http://www.interest.co.nz/currencies/61067/nz-govt-thinks-australia-has-dutch-disease-pm-key-says-us-and-europe-deliberately-d

  5. Bored 5
    11 September 2012 at 7:45 am

    I have a long history of being anti complex gadgets and an equal distrust in technology and faux progress….so for all of you with smart phones and IPads I thought this Kunstler prediction was very appropriate.

    http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/09/zeitgeist-failure.html

    Sidebar on How “Smart” We Think We Are

    TV commercial seen during the Women’s finals of the US Tennis Open:
    Cadillac is bragging that they have replaced the old dashboard knobs and toggles with a “smart” iPad-type control system. Has a car company ever done something so fucking stupid? The whole point of knobs and toggles is that you can keep your eyes on the road while adjusting things by feel. An iPad you actually have to look at to see what you’re tapping on. Expect a colossal death toll from buyers of the latest Cadillacs in the next couple of years. I suppose there’s poetic justice in the automobile age winding down on a note of such supernatural idiocy.

    • tc 5.1
      11 September 2012 at 8:49 am

      Reminds of the Dilbert animated series where Dogbert comments that the entire technology advances in efficiency of the 20th century have been undone by everyone waiting for their browser to refresh.

      • weka 5.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 10:49 am

        I can’t believe the number of cell phone calls where I can’t hear people properly. And where people can’t hear me. And we all just pretend it’s ok. Telemiscommunications. Nostalgia for phones that had 5 numerals for the phone number. 

        • Bored 5.1.1.1
          11 September 2012 at 11:26 am

          In laymans terms (been involved in this stuff for years)…Before we had “cellular” we were on the PSTN (plain old telephone system) which had developed over a century and even on crap copper gave reasonable phone quality. Cell phone technology is reasonably recent, because it is on the “air” as opposed to within a reasonably “clean” copper environment it is far more open to quality issues (interference, distance issues etc)…HOWEVER it could get better if there were more transmitter / receivers (cell sites) plus switching capacity between the cell sites. The major issue you have with quality I put down to lack of investment (NZ is simply too large with too few people and too many competitors).

          • Bored 5.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2012 at 11:41 am

            PSTN (public switched telephone network)…used to be run by the Post Office as a public service……interesting concept which we might reconsider.

        • millsy 5.1.1.2
          11 September 2012 at 8:54 pm

          Mobile phones are only good for texting and mobile internet usage anyway. Phoning someone on a mobile is only practical for if you need to get in touch someone quickly.

          Is there any reason why no-one has seeked to adapt text messaging to land lines? Kinda like what they did with telex/teletype?

    • weka 5.2
      11 September 2012 at 10:53 am

      “Has a car company ever done something so fucking stupid? ”

      I often wonder who regulates car design. There’s a number of modern cars that have indicators that are hard to see. Possibly this is NZ’s intense light that makes it harder (the indicators aren’t very bright).  They also don’t appear to be that visible from the side. Weird. 

      • Bored 5.2.1
        11 September 2012 at 11:28 am

        The “market”…I heard somebody state that the number of people killed in car crashes now exceeds the front line deaths in two world wars. Mind boggling.

      • muzza 5.2.2
        11 September 2012 at 11:38 am

        Cars also seem to have various levels of blindingly bright head lights, including the newer models with slightly blue colour which daze the eyes nicely.

        Add to that the now common practice of using fog lights at all times of day, really does beg the question about reglation/policing.

      • millsy 5.2.3
        11 September 2012 at 8:55 pm

        The reason why new cars are so expensive is because car companies seem to be wanting to add on feature after feature..

  6. Tiger Mountain 6
    11 September 2012 at 7:53 am

    The Herald is pumping up The Conservative Party over the CP’s increased poll support allegedly around the same sex/gay marriage (Marriage Equality) issue.

    A thoughtful article at Kiwipolitico backgrounds why the Herald would use inaccurate terminology
    http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2012/08/framing-marriage-equality-to-win/
    Lew at KP looks at the importance of “framing” with contentious issues. Supporters of the Wall bill have done well so far but better get their act together with the media before we have another Section 59 debacle. ‘Kid beaters’ won that framing tussle and the removal of a defence for assault on a child forever became the “Anti Smacking Bill”. Supported hilariously by John Key, which the foam flecked kiwiblog lot always seem to overlook in their fear and loathing.

    • Tracey 6.1
      11 September 2012 at 8:15 am

      The Herald has to support CP, ACT is gone… we’re all just subsidising Mr Banks right now, he doesn’t actually do anything for his pay.

      Aside, yesterday was my last visit to Herald online. New format sucks and I have finally had enough of them. They gave us free newspapers for a week, which ended on Sunday when I said ” nope, just went straight int he bin”. Stunned silence on the phone followed by “thank you for your time”.

      • Lanthanide 6.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 9:10 am

        “New format sucks”

        I suspect this was a case of “how do we copy stuff and make it look like we didn’t copy them?”

      • Fortran 6.1.2
        11 September 2012 at 2:42 pm

        Tracey

        Heard from a number of oldies “Print size too small”.
        They have reduced the font size.
        Need stronger reading glasses.

        • lprent 6.1.2.1
          11 September 2012 at 5:09 pm

          Who cares about old conservatives who are still running on paper*. I’m having problems remembering the last time I read a paper copy of any newspaper.

          They updated the website at the same time. needless to say it is now harder to find anything on the page because the sections have less in them. However they appear to have finally gotten a faster and marginally better search feature.

          * BTW: Has anyone else ever seen young kids dealing with books these days? They start trying to press the paper and swiping it to change page because they expect it to be interactive.

          • Vicky32 6.1.2.1.1
            12 September 2012 at 5:30 pm

            Who cares about old conservatives who are still running on paper*.

            Er – lots of people! It’s not just ‘old conservatives’ either – I for one, hate reading off a screen….and although I am old (compared to some) I am not conservative. If some people here are correct and we’re headed back to the past, as everything turns to custard, then we still need paper books etc. For the same reason, I still keep my manual typer…

             
            * BTW: Has anyone else ever seen young kids dealing with books these days? They start trying to press the paper and swiping it to change page because they expect it to be interactive.

            It depends on the kids! My students (aged from 17 to 32) all have technology up the wazoo, but they all also still use books. My sons (25 and 36) are still  voracious reader of paper books, and always have been, despite that they are ‘early adopters’ of whatever tech exists.

            • lprent 6.1.2.1.1.1
              12 September 2012 at 5:49 pm

              I was wondering who I’d get the rise out of…. I just gave away almost of my thousands of books when we moved. I hate reading books on computer screens. But tablets are a whole different feel. I had most of the books as epubs. And it was easier to move without the books. Just kept 40-50 reference books.

              The kids I was talking about are pre-school and have had access to smartphones, tablets, notebooks, and paper books. I haven’t seen a toddler yet who doesn’t like playing with their parents electronics… I always introduce them to “cat piano“. But I’m a sadistic uncle…. 😈

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.2.2
          11 September 2012 at 9:26 pm

          I find the new Herald format unreadable. Finding relevant information in any kind of density is a futile, slow task. I just look at the pictures now.

    • Carol 6.2
      11 September 2012 at 8:31 am

      An NZ Herald digipoll? And it certainly is all in the framing!

      And as far as I can see the Conservatives are up 1% to 1.5%…. a bump? Really slight margin of error stuff.

      The Greens and NZ First have gone up slightly more: over 1% each, the Green by 1.6%. (but still margin of error stuff)

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833189

      And a couple of days ago gaynz was reporting that a recent poll showed that the Conservative party had been on a slide since the marriage equality bill had been drawn from the hat. they refer to a Roy Morgan Poll, so they must have in ind the latest Roy Morgan – when was that? End of August?:

      http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/2/article_12255.php

      Colin Craig’s anti-gay Conservative Party has continued to slide downwards in a leading poll since Louisa Wall’s marriage equality bill was pulled from the ballot.

    • QoT 6.3
      11 September 2012 at 9:07 pm

      The Herald is pumping up The Conservative Party over the CP’s increased poll support allegedly around the same sex/gay marriage (Marriage Equality) issue.

      I’m not completely sceptical about the idea that opposing the marriage equality bill has increased the Conservatives’ support – the sheer volume of coverage of said opposition has to have increased their name recognition, and there’s probably a few former Nat/Act supporters pissed off about Key/Banks’ support of the bill.

      The fact that the bump is so freaking tiny pretty much says it all for the appeal of social conservative bigotry in NZ.

  7. Draco T Bastard 7
    11 September 2012 at 8:05 am

    Consultants cost agencies millions

    Government departments have spent millions making staff redundant only to pay hundreds of millions in consultants’ fees, figures show.

    Now who didn’t see that one coming?

    • muzza 7.1
      11 September 2012 at 9:39 am

      External consultants were hired for short-term work on specific projects and were not the result of staff changes, she said.

      This is absolute BS – rates are paid above the market (accross the board), and its not uncommon to see contractors/consultants running BAU functions, and those on programmes inside for years at a time. There are instances where non PSL companies have been formed by external consultants to supply themselves into positions, and control swaths of IP etc. Its endemic, and by no means the exception from what I have encountered!

      Short term does not exist, not in the public sector, not if you are one of the boys!

  8. Carol 8
    11 September 2012 at 8:11 am

    Poverty causing shoplifting for necessities, while, as Bomber says:

    https://twitter.com/CitizenBomber/status/245245214581731328

    John Key’s – ‘let them eat fruit’ isn’t much of a response to child poverty, but then again he isn’t much of a Prime Minister.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7649186/Single-mothers-shoplifting-to-make-ends-meet

    Although he could not provide specific figures, it was “spiking up enough that we’re going to put serious time into it to resolve it”.

    Shoplifters caught in the past month tended to be women aged between 18 and 25, with a high percentage stealing “necessities of life”, he said.

    Meanwhile Key and Bennett keep of fiddling and smearing the poor! Time to put serious time into developing policies that will do something to turn this appalling amount of poverty around.

      • Bill 8.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 3:28 pm

        Love the “Welfare payments costs around $7.6b every year.” end line.

        My God! $7.6b! Something must be done!

        Until you look at the make-up of that $7.6b. Because it sure as fuck isn’t (as implied) made up from those claiming UB and the likes. How much do pension payments account for? Or housing entitlements (they include working people)? Or care givers (not including parents of children)? And so on.

      • mike 8.1.2
        11 September 2012 at 4:44 pm

        “Social development minister Paula Bennet has just announced new ‘social obligations’…” Did anyone else just feel a cold shiver?

        So this week benes are bad parents. Does she have a pile of these ready for each week? Or does she spend wed-fri chugging Starbucks in her cubicle brainstorming the next one?

        I’ll go! Benes must carry ID at all times. Spot fines for benes who don’t wash their hands in public toilets. Benes are now subject to random home inspections to make sure they’re not cooking P. Every week one randomly selected bene must work for free cleaning the Beehive toilets.

  9. Tracey 9
    11 September 2012 at 8:16 am

    Oh God, just what we need, women taking responsibility for their children by stealing nappies. Bring back public floggings

  10. chris73 10
    11 September 2012 at 8:46 am

    On a separate issue, what have you guys done to your website? Its thrown a complete spazz. Takes way longer to load, have to refresh a couple times, posts go missing etc etc

    Can’t you call in some web site geeks to sort it out?

    • Carol 10.1
      11 September 2012 at 8:59 am

      My browsers have been loading slowly on all sites since last night.

    • NickS 10.2
      11 September 2012 at 2:02 pm

      I think it’s more a general connection issue, I’ve had multiple sites take forever loading despite not downloading anything and connection speed on steam went down to 250-300Kb/s from the usual +600kb/s.

      Could be the result of work being done on exchanges that are hooked up to the underwater cables, or work on the backbone systems, but it’s not like Telecom and Chorus will ever tell internet users before hand.

  11. vto 11
    11 September 2012 at 9:03 am

    .
    Canterbury is now like Fiji.

    We have dictators.

    If ever you hear someone say “oh New Zealand is just the best place in the world, we don’t have terrorists or dictators, poisonous snakes or arabs” make sure you jump on them.

    Sometimes I think we are more than half asleep. As far as I recall we have had terrorist attacks (Wellington union building, rainbow warrior, ureweras), dictators (Muldoon, Ecan), poisonous snakes (John Key) and arabs (John Banks). We have also been bombed by russians and germans, flown over by japanese warplanes, bombed by the French, had our own kind of civil war …… yet people thinkw e are somehow immune from these things? I mean even Helen Clark reckoned we live in a benign environment… sheesh.

    In my opinion we have had all of those things and we still do today. It doesn’t take much to push things just that bit further so things really get out of hand.

    And now we have Fiji politics with the likes of Amy Adams and David Carter acting exactly like Bainimarama.

    What is it about these things that people don’t get?

    • muzza 11.1
      11 September 2012 at 9:51 am

      The best slave is one who believes he is free….

    • weka 11.2
      11 September 2012 at 11:11 am

      I think we are still relatively protected from the nasty in the world, that’s the point. We don’t believe it can happen here, so we don’t see it when it does. I agree with you about Canterbury, we should be very concerned about what is happening there.

      Not sure about terrorism though. We are thus far very lucky. The Rainbow Warrior was shocking but didn’t leave us with a sense of personal danger that terrorism does (although I’m sure that changed for Greenpeace and similar activists).

      Ureweras was state terrorism. That’s scarey shit, and yes not enough people were scared by the right thing.

      • Colonial Viper 11.2.1
        11 September 2012 at 9:45 pm

        Ureweras was state terrorism. That’s scarey shit, and yes not enough people were scared by the right thing.

        As was the raid on Dotcom.

        The police had absolutely no cause to use anti-terrorist commando tactics against the man and his family.

        Two constables, a squad car, and “Sir, you need to come down to the station with us now” would have done the job.

    • tracey 11.3
      11 September 2012 at 1:22 pm

      Don’t worry, it’s democracy National’s way. Or as you like to call it Dictatorship. I suspect Joyce would call it democracy delegation

  12. marsman 12
    11 September 2012 at 9:11 am

    How apt :- Scammers claim to be IRD ‘John Key scheme’ | Scoop News

  13. Carol 13
    11 September 2012 at 9:38 am

    Great article by Gordon Campbell on Woody Guthrie, on Woody’s 100 birthday this July.

    I was a fan of both Woody and Bob Dylan’s songs in my youth. Since then I’ve been a bit sceptical about how the US mainstream promotes and appropriates its pop culture folk heroes, in order to preserve it’s image as the home of democracy and freedom to speak truth to power.

    Not that there isn’t something in these left wing critics of the status quo, but that one needs to be wary about the complexity of their role in the total fabric of US mainstream mythology:

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2012/09/woody-guthrie-at-100/

    I’m not suggesting Guthrie was a fake, or something not as labeled. Its just that the role is a complex one. In reality, almost every bard of Americana from Guthrie to Bascom Lamar Lunsford to Mark Twain to Walt Whitman has had variations of the same charge levelled against them – that beneath the veneer of homespun virtue and natural born talent there lurked a master showman, ever ready for the chance to peddle to America an image of its own best intentions. The United States seems to feel an ongoing need for such figures, as cultural and political icons. Right now for instance, the United States is in the midst of another election year round of self-delusion about its essential decency and shared sense of purpose. The strain involved in such fakery is immense. Ironically, it is more likely to be the Tea Party that gets together this year and sings “ This Land Is Your Land” as a rebuke to the folks in Washington.

    Woody was born middleclass into a family that fell on hard times – father had been a land speculator.

    Campbell’s article is also interesting for highlighting how the whole dustbowl thing of the 30s has been mythologised and distorted, masking other changes that were happening in the US at the time. The dustbowl erosion did happen, but the migration from the south west preceded and succeeded the dustbowl years, as many middleclass US-ians looked for opportunities elsewhere.

  14. travellerev 14
    11 September 2012 at 9:42 am

    11 Years ago Mrs Cintron died when the tower she was in exploded into its own footprint in free fall speed.

    She left us with some remarkable footage. She stood in the hole made by one of the planes and held on to one of the steel columns while waving to a helicopter. The very same steel columns which where soo hot the building could not help but collapse. I say we honour her and demand a new and independent investigation into the events of 911

    • Te Reo Putake 14.1
      11 September 2012 at 9:50 am

      And I say you should stop abusing Mrs Cintron’s memory, you right wing loon.

      • muzza 14.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 9:56 am

        Voice – Pathetic point of view!

        Bend down, touch your toes and take it, ask no questions, just take what they give you!

        Your weakness shines through, because you can’t ask hard questions yourself, so you react poorly to those who can.

        Don’t be scared, just toughen the fcuk up in your head!

        • Te Reo Putake 14.1.1.1
          11 September 2012 at 10:13 am

          Yes, I can see how my respect for the those killed in the 9/11 attacks could be seen as pathetic by a saddo like yourself, muzza. But I’ll stick to reality, you can stick to the fantasy.

          • muzza 14.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2012 at 10:43 am

            Yes, I can see how my respect for the those killed in the 9/11 attacks could be seen as pathetic by a saddo like yourself, muzza. But I’ll stick to reality, you can stick to the fantasy.

            Let’s examine that comment shall we…

            Your contention of Ev, was that her making the statement she did, was disprespectful to those who lost their lives on 9/11 – What planet do you live on, jeez!

            You then go on to say Yes, I can see how my respect for the those killed in the 9/11 attacks could be seen as pathetic by a saddo like yourself,/i> – As some strange attempt to emphasise your make believe show of respect, and validate your ridiculous statement!

            1: Feign respect by having a go at those who ask questions – ODD

            2: Defend position using second attempt to validate “said respect” – Nah cos people are allowed to ask questions, and in fact it should be mandatory. Its people like yourself you make this world lesser for the rest of us, and the saddo if you, because you think that people like Ev asking those questions are at fault – You are backwards!

            3: Claiming to be sticking to reality – Sure mate, if that helps you out!

            4: Claiming I am a fantasist – Nah, thats your projection!

            We are all being lied to on a daily basis, so much so, that it is becoming harder to find ways to come to what might/might not be truthful. My only contention is that when the default position of TPTB is to lie/cover up, and then in many cases over time be caught out, and actually admit to those lies, then why on earth would you think that 911 is any different!

            • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1.1
              11 September 2012 at 12:01 pm

              If your inclination is to believe “TPTB” lie all the time, why do you believe them when they “admit to those lies”? Maybe they’re just lying to cover up the fact that 20-odd dudes with boxcutters managed to kill 3,000 people right under the noses of US law enforcement.
                  
              More seriously, though – you guys have turned the recent deaths of people into a hobby. Sleep well under your tinfoil hat, Mr/s Aramoana was a false-flag op.

              • muzza …
                11 September 2012 at 1:17 pm

                Hey McFlock – You reckon your council will be next inline for the ‘commissioners’?

                Yup, not easy to drill through the confusion and false leads is it, and that was my contention, as I clearly indicated above. Some things pretty much speak for themselves though don’t they, and if you want the quentessential FF, then 911 is it. Not just something smells bad, the whole thing, and every event which has flowed out the back of it, has been 100% lies!

                Still got your g-string in a bunch over the other stuff I see, could be best you put your energies into getting on your local councils back bro!

                • McFlock …
                  11 September 2012 at 1:44 pm

                  How can you “clearly indicate” anything when you assign your own random meanings to words?
                          
                  You have no idea what you’re talking about, but are happy to use murdered people as a hobby – worse than Rupert Murdoch. 

                  • muzza …
                    11 September 2012 at 1:56 pm

                    How can you “clearly indicate” anything when you assign your own random meanings to words?

                    You have your conversations crossed, we are talking to what my contention above was only, in this instance!

                    You have no idea what you’re talking about, but are happy to use murdered people as a hobby – worse than Rupert Murdoch.

                    The opposite is in fact true, and the long bow you draw, very telling!

                    • McFlock …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:35 pm

                      you bounced from 911 conspiracies to whether my local council will be replaced by commissioners. Yet I’m the one with conversations crossed?
                         
                      I’m not sure you’re using the English language. Just something that uses the same phonemes.

      • vto 14.1.2
        11 September 2012 at 9:58 am

        Well mr non-putake, in my opinion the real loons in the world today are those who believe the ‘official’ version. Mindless non-thinkers wandering the hollows of their lifeframe …

        Which is not to say I agree with all ev’s bits and pieces. But I most certainly do not trust authorities to teel the full truth. Do you? And if so, why?

        • Te Reo Putake 14.1.2.1
          11 September 2012 at 10:18 am

          I don’t implicitly ‘trust’ authority, VTO, but I don’t find myself inclined to side with rambling right wing racists such as Ev, either. The facts about 9/11 are straightforward and there is not a jot of evidence to suggest otherwise. Occam still wins, despite the best efforts of the terminally deluded reactionaries who peddle 9/11 misinformation.

          • travellerev 14.1.2.1.1
            11 September 2012 at 10:29 am

            Right wing loon? Coming from you my dear Voice that’s a compliment.

            As for being called a racist? To be honest I’d rather be friends with the much coloured Hone whom I’m honoured to say actually consented toe be a facebook friend of mine after he read my contributions for awhile plus the many, many Mana groups online that the sad narrow minded creature that calls himself Te Reo Putake for some reason.

            It seems to them I’m not the rampant right wing racist you make me out to be. Funny that because they have access to exactly the same information if not more than you.

            • Te Reo Putake 14.1.2.1.1.1
              11 September 2012 at 10:59 am

              Climate change denier, truther and birther. Ignorant, deluded and racist.

              • travellerev …
                11 September 2012 at 11:20 am

                For those of you new here: This is TRP’s mantra.

                With regards to his Climate Change accusation: I question weather events as there is more and more material out there that suggests active weather modification by TPTB. Do I ignore Climate Change?

                I live within my Carbon footprint, limit trips to town to the minimum, I support my husband in research he does into renewable sources of energy and probably have the lowest count of non recyclable waste a person can have (a garbage bag every 8 weeks).
                With regards to the Truther accusation: Buildings do not collapse as teh result of Carbon fires. The only ones who did collapsed on 9/11 in free fall speed breaking all laws of Physics.

                That presents me with a problem because as an ex special effects engineer and model maker(18 years) who’s main job it was to create the illusion that those laws can be broken I know they can’t. So I support the global 911 truth movement in their demand that a new and independent investigation must be held into the events.

                With regards to the Birther accusation: TPTB in the mainstream media have equated doubts about Obama’s right to be the President of America on the grounds that he is not a native born American citizen with racism.
                The fact is that Kenia claims he was born in Kenia, Hawaii can’t produce a legitimate birth certificate and the only document they did produce was a multi layered Photoshop/Illustrator file with numerous errors.

                The argument to call this racist is because if he had been white people would not have asked that question.

                Here is what I believe. Bush, Blair and Obama are all war criminals. Obama is a proven liar (the all are of course) who promised the end of the wars and the end of excessive debt. He is a puppet for the real and very white powers that be and I hope that one day these very white people burn in hell for using a man like Obama, brown handsome, young and charismatic to once again blindside the US population.

                They are the ones who used his race in a cynical and evil way.

                To ask that everybody keeps to the laws of the land and be able to prove he is has nothing to do with racism but with the laws of the land.

                To say we can not hold everyone no matter what his collar to those standards is what is really racist and TRP hates it when I point that out to him.

                • Lanthanide …
                  11 September 2012 at 11:46 am

                  “The only ones who did collapsed on 9/11 in free fall speed breaking all laws of Physics.”

                  But you cannot break the laws of physics!

                  • King Kong …
                    11 September 2012 at 2:41 pm

                    Enough already.

                    I am going to be the first of the 4000 people involved in this secret to break my silence.

                    9/11 was a fake. It was retribution from Britain for the US involvement in the death of Princess Diana (US didn’t like all the fuss she was making about landmines most of which are manufactured by Haliburton).

                    We actually took the towers down with massive vats of acid.

          • Colonial Viper 14.1.2.1.2
            11 September 2012 at 10:53 am

            Te Reo Putake said:

            The facts about 9/11 are straightforward and there is not a jot of evidence to suggest otherwise.

            😯

            You really are a one eyed ostrich, TRP.

            http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608

            (emphasis mine)

            As one of its last acts before disbanding, in July 2004, the 9/11 commission made referrals to the inspector general’s offices of both the Department of Transportation (which includes the F.A.A.) and the Defense Department to further investigate whether witnesses had lied. “Commission staff believes that there is significant evidence that the [Pentagon’s] false statements made to the commission were deliberately false,” Farmer wrote to me in an e-mail summarizing the commission’s referral. “The false testimony served a purpose: to obscure mistakes on the part of the F.A.A. and the military, and to overstate the readiness of the military to intercept and, if necessary, shoot down UAL 93.” A spokesman for the Transportation Department’s inspector general’s office told me that the investigation had been completed, but he wasn’t at liberty to share the findings, because the report had not been finalized. A spokesman at the Pentagon’s inspector general’s office said its investigation had also been completed, but the results are classified.

            • Te Reo Putake 14.1.2.1.2.1
              11 September 2012 at 11:04 am

              Yep, as I said CV, not a jot of evidence to suggest otherwise. Ten years on, nothing. Nada. Not a skerrick. The final nail in the coffin was the Toronto tenth anniversary conference which was such a miserable failure its hard to see how there will be a 20th anniversary bash.

              Each generation has it’s conspiracies. Lindberg baby, UFO’s, HUAC, JFK, Elvis etc. But as time passes, they get shown to be the embarrassments they are.

              ps, if an ostrich has it’s head in the sand, surely it doesn’t matter if it’s one eyed? ; )

              • Colonial Viper …
                11 September 2012 at 11:18 am

                it is known that Pentagon officials deliberately lied to the investigation but you deliberately maintain that “the facts are straight forward”?

                Why?

                • insider …
                  11 September 2012 at 12:05 pm

                  According to the quote you highlighted “The false testimony served a purpose: to obscure mistakes on the part of the F.A.A. and the military, and to overstate the readiness of the military to intercept and, if necessary, shoot down UAL 93.”

                  So they said they were better and more prepared than they were. Who hasn’t gilded the lily on their work experience and capability? Does that then automatically place us on the grassy knoll?

                  • Pascal's bookie …
                    11 September 2012 at 2:47 pm

                    Relevant to this discussion is this from today’s NYT;

                    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share

                    The hearings after the event had arse covering on all directions. Plenty of detail in that linked story about what the CIA was saying to the white house before 9/11 and why the Pentagon would be telling lies about what they were saying and focussing on.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    11 September 2012 at 9:55 pm

                    So they said they were better and more prepared than they were. Who hasn’t gilded the lily on their work experience and capability? Does that then automatically place us on the grassy knoll?

                    But we’re not talking about exaggerating the number of A’s you got in uni, or the fact you got a degree when you didn’t, are we.

                    And people lose their jobs for even that simple no-consequence shit, let alone providing deliberately false testimony to a Federally appointed commission.

              • travellerev …
                11 September 2012 at 11:21 am

                For those of you new here:

                This is TRP’s standard mantra.

                With regards to his Climate Change accusation: I question weather events as there is more and more material out there that suggests active weather modification by TPTB.

                Do I ignore Climate Change? I live within my Carbon footprint, limit trips to town to the minimum, I support my husband in research he does into renewable sources of energy and probably have the lowest count of non recyclable waste a person can have (a garbage bag every 8 weeks).

                With regards to the Truther accusation: Buildings do not collapse as teh result of Carbon fires. The only ones who did collapsed on 9/11 in free fall speed breaking all laws of Physics.

                That presents me with a problem because as an ex-special effects engineer and model maker(18 years) who’s main job it was to create the illusion that those laws can be broken I know they can’t. So I support the global 911 truth movement in their demand that a new and independent investigation must be held into the events.

                With regards to the Birther accusation: TPTB in the mainstream media have equated doubts about Obama’s right to be the President of America on the grounds that he is not a native born American citizen with racism.

                The fact is that Kenia claims he was born in Kenia, Hawaii can’t produce a legitimate birth certificate and the only document they did produce was a multi layered Photoshop/Illustrator file with numerous errors.

                The argument to call this racist is because if he had been white people would not have asked that question.

                Here is what I believe. Bush, Blair and Obama are all war criminals. Obama is a proven liar (the all are of course) who promised the end of the wars and the end of excessive debt. He is a puppet for the real and very white powers that be and I hope that one day these very white people burn in hell for using a man like Obama, brown, handsome, young and charismatic to once again blindside the US population.

                They are the ones who used his race in a cynical and evil way.

                To ask that everybody keeps to the laws of the land and be able to prove he is has nothing to do with racism but with the laws of the land.

                To say we can not hold everyone no matter what his collar to those standards is what is really racist and TRP hates it when I point that out to him.

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  11 September 2012 at 11:34 am

                  Soooooo …. CC Denier, truther and birther. Ignorant, deluded and racist, as I’ve already pointed out. But thanks for the confirmation, Ev.

                • Bored …
                  11 September 2012 at 11:36 am

                  Trav, I don’t agree with you that 9/11 was a conspiracy. Full stop.

                  I also don’t agree with the accusations you have been subject to. You should not have to defend yourself against labeling. It seems as I observed yesterday that we are truly a house divided, too fast to cut the person to the bone for alleged impurities. Carry on please.

                  • Vicky32 …
                    12 September 2012 at 7:25 pm

                    You should not have to defend yourself against labeling. It seems as I observed yesterday that we are truly a house divided, too fast to cut the person to the bone for alleged impurities

                    Although I found Ev to be the kind of person who will cheerfully bite someone who agrees with her if they disagree about other issues, I am seconding you here.. 🙂

                • mike e …
                  11 September 2012 at 11:36 am

                  trav physics what bullshit you’ve got more than 1/2 a million tons of building above the point of impact that starts moving downwards inside an exoskeleton building whats going to stop that sky hooks. Get real
                  Climate change i’m with you on that but don’t put them together they are totally different subjects.

                  • travellerev …
                    11 September 2012 at 11:45 am

                    Another idjit who doesn’t understand the third law of Physics:
                    For every force there is an opposite and equal force.

                    The amount of tonnage above the impact was more than met by the amount of tonnage below. The theory has been thoroughly discredited. Architects and engineers for 911 truth

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 12:20 pm

                      “The only ones who did collapsed on 9/11 in free fall speed breaking all laws of Physics.”

                      If it was breaking the laws of physics it wouldn’t have fallen.
                      It has to obey the laws physics, every physical object does.

                      “For every force there is an opposite and equal force.”
                      The building fell like cards, the top stories fell into the one below, which fell into the one below and the one below that and so on. It wasn’t the top floors vs’ the rest of the building. It was the top floors vs. the single floor immediately below it.

                      There’s ya physics.

                    • mike e …
                      11 September 2012 at 12:22 pm

                      Well i wouldn’t place any faith in their abilities but as i have studied physics and your argument literally doesn’t Stack up The twin towers were built quickly .to make sure that tenants were able to occupy as soon as possible. the only method that was able to deliver on time was the inferior exoskeleton kit set prefabricated construction type
                      The other reason it was used is that it had the maximum floorspace more profit margin
                      No other buildings have been constructed in this method since the 1950’s or since.
                      You don’t understand the basics of physics momentum once 1/2 a million tons starts moving its very hard to stop just like a train which is on a smaller scale. so tell me hoe do you stop 1/2 a million tonnes thats gaining momentum. With a conspiracy theory.

                    • mike e …
                      11 September 2012 at 12:51 pm

                      Trav So you have found the secret to negate the effects of GRVITY!

                    • insider …
                      11 September 2012 at 1:53 pm

                      @ mikee

                      The tube frame structure of WTC wasn’t invented till the 60s. From Wikipedia

                      The first building to apply the tube-frame construction was the DeWitt-Chestnut apartment building which Khan designed and which was completed in Chicago by 1963.[5] This laid the foundations for the tube structural design of many later skyscrapers, including his own John Hancock Center and Willis Tower, and the construction of the World Trade Center, Petronas Towers, Jin Mao Building, and most other supertall skyscrapers since the 1960s.[6]

                    • mike e …
                      11 September 2012 at 2:08 pm

                      Yeah right gravity doesn’t exist.
                      The theory what theory!
                      Practice is the proof .
                      The CTV bulding another example of collapse of inferior construction.

                    • insider …
                      11 September 2012 at 2:13 pm

                      mikkee

                      I’m not arguing with your conclusion, just your premise re none of these types of buildings having been built since the 50s

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      11 September 2012 at 10:02 pm

                      mike e said:

                      The CTV bulding another example of collapse of inferior construction.

                      The CTV building failed as buildings normally fail in earthquakes. Unevenly, with floor structures intact and identifiable, with the mass of building materials present and indentifiable. Fires broke out in the rubble, but they were not hot enough to melt the steel present in the building.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 September 2012 at 10:48 pm

                      I wonder what the CTV building would have looked like if another hundred stories hand landed on it?
                         
                      Food for thought. 

              • mike e …
                11 September 2012 at 11:30 am

                what about moonlanding in the basement.

                • travellerev …
                  11 September 2012 at 1:36 pm

                  Mike e I suppose you mean the law of Gravity. the one that dictates every object falling finds the path of least resistance making a lie of the Hammer theory? The one you espoused before.
                  Here is what happened with the start of the collapse of the North tower. First it keels over as if to follow the path of least resistance before it evaporates leaving no mass for the hammer theory.

                  http://www.sealane.org/writings/newSTCsub.pdf

                • mike e …
                  11 September 2012 at 2:39 pm

                  Yes insider i’ve got mixed up with the type of trusses used which are no longer allowed to be used, clip in trusses are the reason the domino effect of the collapse.
                  The clip in Floor trusses were outlawed by the NYFD in the 1950’s .
                  With the heat from the fire only having to reach 450 to 650 degrees Celsius for these clip in floor trusses to fail.
                  And the cores of these buildings are no longer aloud to be from top to bottom but have to be offset to allow people to escape easier.

      • mike e 14.1.3
        11 September 2012 at 1:37 pm

        Far right trp

  15. travellerev 15
    11 September 2012 at 10:05 am

    And for those of you curious about what many of the survivors and family members want: Press for truth or answers to the many questions left unanswered by the 911 commission for starters.
    And voice? Whatever!

    • Tiger Mountain 15.1
      11 September 2012 at 10:49 am

      Follow the evidence say the various architects and engineers for truth re 911, and that is a good postition to start from. NIST appears to be rather full of it. Nearly anyone that sees building 7, not hit by a plane, go down, says instinctively yeah that looks like one of those old Chicago projects being demo’d like you see on TV.

      My problem initially was with the level of ‘suspension of disbelief’ required. Getting past “why would a government do that to it’s own people?” It is incomprehensible at first, but not in reality. They are quite happy to do it to other populations around the world. The US government while running a country also has a military industrial complex and associated spook offshoots that merge lethal force and profiteering on behalf of US capital and finance capital. Black ops and false flags abound. The US nuked two Japanese cities to destruction, and still hold the planet to ransom if not with a MAD (mutally assured destruction) strategy as in the 60s-80s then with a still massive nuclear arsenal. In our lifetimes more will come out about 911 and the war on terror.

      • Urban Raskal 15.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 12:28 pm

        +1 Follow the evidence.

        I’ve found it works both ways in this argument though. There are many pieces of evidence that are wrong on both sides. A cynic like me tends to lean towards a deliberate skewing of the information on the truth side in order to limit the impact on Americas current geopolitical aims in the ME, which are built on a decade of war for revenge. When it’s really blood for oil, war for big business.

        But that’s just me.

  16. mike e 16
    11 September 2012 at 10:39 am

    Trav conspiracy theorist I’ve been in the building Industry for probably longer than you have been alive.
    The construction of the twin towers exoskeleton type was outlawed by the NY fire dept in the 1950s because of the danger of collapse in fires .
    Because the metal hooks that clip each floor panel in can deform with just moderate heat not melting as you conspiracy theorists claim.
    All the steel in the twin towers were coated with fire proof silica fibre which was supposed to be maintained ,thats how the builders got round the ban.
    But the maintenance was not kept up due to corruption by the contractor kickbacks to the mafia controlled contractor who took the money but never did any maintenance.
    (Mafia are well known in New York for their involvement in the construction industry)
    The weight of each of the twin towers aprox 5 million tons each caused building seven to collapse not thermite, thermite is an extremely volatile substance to move it contain it to stop it reacting when you don’t want it to ,is outside the realms of you and your theorists.
    We don’t have any thermite in this country because no shipping company in the world will touch it!
    Trav you are just giving the RWNJ’s a home run.
    If you want to expose you pathetic Conspiracies go to one of the many glossy sites on the net that back it without proper evidence.

    • Bored 16.1
      11 September 2012 at 11:44 am

      Interesting comment re the construction type and its weaknesses, I have often wondered about the lifespan of these buildings and how they are maintained.

      Also like the “mafia” angle…there is a realistic conspiracy theory.

    • travellerev 16.2
      11 September 2012 at 11:49 am

      Let’s ignore the 47 Steel Columns in the centre of both buildings shall we?
      If I were you I wouldn’t make it known that you were in the building industry cause you sound thoroughly ignorant of the construction of the twin towers or the freefall collapse of the third building that day

    • travellerev 16.3
      11 September 2012 at 11:55 am

      Plain thermite= Aluminium and Iron powder?

      But then Nano thermite is only made in high end US military laboratories. Wonder how residue and unexploded chips of that got in the buildings. Mind you it is argued that Nano thermite while melting steel very quickly at very high temps would not have been enough for the explosive demolition of the Twin towers.
      You might want to reread your essay’s before you post them becasue this sentence makes absolutely no sense at all:

      If you want to expose you pathetic Conspiracies go to one of the many glossy sites on the net that back it without proper evidence.

      • grumpy 16.3.1
        11 September 2012 at 12:48 pm

        We used Thermite to weld railway tracks many years ago, very impressive stuff.

        mike e; must be some still around.

        • mike e 16.3.1.1
          11 September 2012 at 12:54 pm

          Sorry I got the wrong chemical

          • mike e 16.3.1.1.1
            11 September 2012 at 1:18 pm

            Thermite can also be manurfactured accidently by the rubbing of two metals together into a powdered form which could easily be explained by the huge weights involved in the collapse of the 3 buildings at the world trade center

        • Pascal's bookie 16.3.1.2
          11 September 2012 at 1:01 pm

          How much do ya reckon would be needed to bring down the WTCs? I’ve asked a few times but no one wants to discuss the mechanics alternate theories.

          • travellerev 16.3.1.2.1
            11 September 2012 at 1:11 pm

            Here is an analysis of the mass and potential energy of WTC 1. Give that to an engineering friend and he/she might be able to calculate it for you. One thing is for sure the Boeing and hte Kerosene paled in comparison with the buildings mass and potential energy
            http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200703/GUrich/MassAndPeWtc.pdf

            • Pascal's bookie 16.3.1.2.1.1
              11 September 2012 at 1:26 pm

              So ten+ years later and there hasn’t been any work done by truthers on what their alternate theory would entail?

              Rightio. Obviously serious people.

            • mike e 16.3.1.2.1.2
              11 September 2012 at 1:53 pm

              More BS trav the av gas can reach temperature of up 1300o cel when high winds are forced throught a narrow passage ie oxygen mixed with feul like a bunsen burner but that temperature did not need to be reached a temperature of 550 to 650 would be enough to cause failure with the huge weight above and only and exo skeleton no other support even the empire state building was built better back in the 1930’s
              This is a result of greedy capitalism poor building substandard buildings.
              Not your looney conspiracy theory.
              The CIA Knew had information about the attack but it never got to the right people .
              Thats what they are covering up.
              Also a govt investigation is looking at a CIA member who put a large forex trade making him millions on the advent of an attaack on the US.

              • travellerev …
                11 September 2012 at 3:20 pm

                Mike you’ve been caught several times making “mistakes’ and getting confused and all. Must be the age eh?
                Meet Mrs Cintron, the lady who stood in the holes were fires raged so hot it could melt steel also the problem with steel is that it serves as a heat sink. That’s those strange shapes inside your amplifiers.

                Not just one member of the CIA Mike whole banking sections around the globe were betting with foreknowledge

                • TheContrarian …
                  11 September 2012 at 3:26 pm

                  Wow, even 11 years later not one of these people with foreknowledge, which must number in the 1000’s in order to pull this off, has ever uttered a word to anyone or slipped up in anyway?

                  Government groups so inept they can nothing else secret have managed to keep this secret as well as civilians?

                • insider …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:03 pm

                  The fire’s above her, the steel she is leaning on projects from below, it has clearly been severed by impact not heat distortion. WHy do you think it would be hot and so proves anything at all?

      • TheContrarian 16.3.2
        11 September 2012 at 1:11 pm

        How did all the thermite get into the very heart of the building?

        • travellerev 16.3.2.1
          11 September 2012 at 1:16 pm

          How did 19 young Muslims break all the laws of Physics and get past the US Air force for 1.5 hours breaking every flight protocol and still traceable by radar and fly 757 Boeings in complex flight patterns they had never flown before while they were incapable of flying a Cessna?

          • TheContrarian 16.3.2.1.1
            11 September 2012 at 1:18 pm

            Ummm, no one “broke the laws of physics”.

            And answering my question with one of your own answers nothing.
            How did the thermite get into the heart of the building?

            They broke all the laws of physics? What about the law angular momentum?

            • Colonial Viper 16.3.2.1.1.1
              11 September 2012 at 3:10 pm

              How did the thermite get into the heart of the building?

              Standard building dems team protocols are well known.

              • TheContrarian …
                11 September 2012 at 3:13 pm

                So no-one in the WTC noticed demolition teams wiring up thermite to the inner pillars?

                • Urban Raskal …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:02 pm

                  The theory says there were Unscheduled Fire Drills in the weeks leading up.
                  I don’t really support the theory, it’s abit far-fetched.
                  But the insurance angle is pretty interesting, the building was poorly maintained and a large policy was taken out just month’s before or something like that.

                  I tend to find theories like this have within them half-truths or hidden truths. Usually regarding political corruption and corporate frauds.
                  But who has the time to filter and check bullshit from fact?

                  • insider …
                    11 September 2012 at 4:04 pm

                    only ‘a bit’ far fetched? And is ‘or something like that’ a good basis for a theory. The insurance negotiations were incomplete. The building management had just changed, or something like that

                    • Urban Raskal …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:26 pm

                      Well I’m not an expert on engineering or building construction. So I can’t really judge, who am I to say it’s completely looney. I have no expertise in the collapse of buildings so have to follow the logical explanation (which is the common explanation).

                      At the same I can understand how the events of that day prompted over a decade of violence in Afghanistan and Iraq at the benefit of quite a few people within that Government’s inner circle.

                      So I guess all in all, I wouldn’t be shocked either way.
                      False flags are an admitted part of America’s involvements in previous wars and to write it off as completely impossible… na I’ll keep in the neutral area of this one and just stick to “I don’t know what happened, what ever happened was horrible”

                      EDIT – As I said, I’m no expert on the theory, I’m not stating it as a concrete point hence “or something like that”, was merely contending that Trav’s theory does have a reference. If your considering my post as an all out support for the theory, well you’ve read it wrong.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 September 2012 at 9:46 pm

                    “The theory says there were Unscheduled Fire Drills in the weeks leading up.”

                    To attached thermite charges to what would have had to have been more than one floor would mean walls are being removed, workers poking around and wires being laid.
                    Careful demolition of a building takes weeks to wire properly, with no one noticing in a building with high security, 24 hours usage and, not least, bomb sniffer dogs.

          • mike e 16.3.2.1.2
            11 September 2012 at 1:41 pm

            more absolute bullshit modern planes can be flown quite easily its landing and take off that takes years of learning.

            • travellerev 16.3.2.1.2.1
              11 September 2012 at 4:06 pm

              Here is what pilots have to say about the easy to fly planes: pilotsfor911truth.org/

              • TheContrarian …
                11 September 2012 at 4:16 pm

                Sorry, do you have anything which isn’t elephant hurling? 
                Please be specific instead of linking to an entire site 

                And what does it matter how hard or easy it is to fly?
                Are trying to state they weren’t flying the planes and someone else was? Or they had training elsewhere? If so, where and what evidence is there that anyone from the CIA/Govt/US had anything to do with it?

                • travellerev …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:21 pm

                  And for those of you who want to know how totally ridiculous the official Conspiracy theory is here is a hilarious five minute video spelling it out:
                  911 in five minutes

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 September 2012 at 4:27 pm

                    So you don’t answer specifics are just keep hurling out claims without addressing anything?

                    like:
                    Are trying to state they weren’t flying the planes and someone else was? Or they had training elsewhere? If so, where and what evidence is there that anyone from the CIA/Govt/US had anything to do with it?

                    And:
                    How did the thermite get into the heart of the building?

                    As well as:
                    Even 11 years later not one of these people with foreknowledge, which must number in the 1000′s in order to pull this off, has ever uttered a word to anyone or slipped up in anyway?  

                    And those are just from me 

                • mike e …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:29 pm

                  the planes flew themselses to the nearby vicinity autopilot and the suicide pilots only had to bank the planes into the buildings at 400knots and job done 30.000 litres of av gas did the rest

                  • Vicky32 …
                    13 September 2012 at 5:19 pm

                    the planes flew themselses to the nearby vicinity autopilot and the suicide pilots only had to bank the planes into the buildings at 400knots and job done 30.000 litres of av gas did the rest

                    😀 Read that aloud to yourself and maybe you will hear how absurd that sounds 😀

              • mike e …
                11 September 2012 at 7:29 pm

                With a box cutter at their throats

          • mike e 16.3.2.1.3
            11 September 2012 at 1:58 pm

            Broke the laws of the country not physics trav baffling people with BS doesn’t make an argument.
            What about the laws of Gravity you haven’t explained how you stop a 1/2 million tonnes of weight stopping in its tracks after gaining momentum thats real physics not bs fantasies!
            OK we hate GW Bush as much as the next man but making up stories is not winning any one any on this side of the argument over.
            Your just encouraging the RWNJs to call us the looney left.

            • TheContrarian 16.3.2.1.3.1
              11 September 2012 at 2:27 pm

              It isn’t just the left, there are people on the right who think the same.

              • TheContrarian …
                11 September 2012 at 9:49 pm

                “…a ban for making a moderator have to exert too much effort.”

                Classy.

                EDIT: That was in response to the awesome moderating below. Stay Classy, LPrent.
                “I’m a lazy moderator, so fuck you”

                [lprent: You don’t want an enthusiastic moderator ever. Just think it through for a second. If they were enthusiastic then getting to a good effective state would only be the start. They couldn’t leave it in just an ok and relatively cheap to maintain state. They’d have to invent new sins offenses to deal with all of the time straining towards perfection and the reinvention of the concentration camp. The maze rat addiction problem of self reinforcing positive feedback. I’ve seen forums like that happen over the last 30 years in net systems many times.

                What works better is having people that will prefer not to exert effort. They prefer minor warnings. But who are willing to put considerable effort once aroused in to making sure they don’t have the same problem again. You have to have the latter because in the end it is better that people control themselves. The best way to do that is to make the risk levels somewhat uncertain. This provides a much lower effort negative feedback system. Where people think about what they do before they do it or get concerned about consequences, whilst leaving enough room for them to take some risks….

                ie the reason for your EDIT is a case in point. ]

                • TheContrarian …
                  11 September 2012 at 10:28 pm

                  Don’t worry, Old Wolf. You don’t have to explain to me. Your remark is so dripping with magnanimous ‘the king has spoken! And he is just!’ leadership that I might swoon with justice and good governance.

                  Talk tomorrow, my grace,

                  • lprent …
                    11 September 2012 at 10:55 pm

                    😈 there are some benefits for doing the work on the site. One of those is to set the limits. The downside is how much work is required to earn that benefit/responsibility. Which is why this is a collective rather than a ego blog. Others do posts or moderate weekends or even just comment or whatever. I mostly run the hardware, software, and social/wetware systems. Systems are my favorite task always.

            • Te Reo Putake 16.3.2.1.3.2
              11 September 2012 at 2:45 pm

              It’s not the left that promotes this disrespectful and fanciful garbage, mike e. It’s almost exclusively pushed by the ‘don’t tread on me’ rednecks and related conservative groupings. Most lefties can spot the difference between the real class warfare capitalism wages against the earth’s peoples and the Mission Impossible/WACO style fantasies of the 9/11 truth deniers.

              It’s why right wingers like Ev who push this rubbish also tend to be climate change deniers and are so racist that they deny Obama is an American citizen just so they can pretend they’ve never really had a black President.

              As I’ve said before, 9/11 truthers are just the KKK at the keyboard. More fool those that give them any credence.

              [lprent: Is your alternate identity Fran O’Sullivan?

              I had thought that she had the local franchise on making a complete pillock of herself with KKK comparisons without bothering to justify why she is using them with actual historical relevance. Don’t you start as well.

              Find something less likely to initiate a flamewar before I drop KKK into auto-moderation along with troll (about the only other word being misused at present) and you into a ban for making a moderator have to exert too much effort. ]

              • TheContrarian …
                11 September 2012 at 3:04 pm

                I have some lefties supporting 9/11 theories. A good conspiracy crosses party lines.

                Many chemtrailers/NWO Conspiracy theorists are also committed greenies and supporters of left wing politics.

                That’s what makes these grand conspiracy theories so powerful. 

                What make’s them like the KKK?

                • Urban Raskal …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:11 pm

                  This is the interesting part of all conspiracy theories. Figuring the writers angle.
                  They fundamentally believe what they write happened but when you visit certain sites, it’s impossible not to pick up on the overly racial tone of the writing.

                  chemtrailers/NWO Conspiracy theorists that I know are as you say committed to the left. But then so are some climate change deniers I’ve met who think it’s NWO tax scheme on the people.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 September 2012 at 4:14 pm

                    Indeed, Conspiracy Theories have angles that suit many political ideologies.

                    That is their great power 

                  • gobsmacked …
                    11 September 2012 at 4:23 pm

                    The stupidest thing about this nonsense is the time and mental energy wasted on them. We could end cancer overnight if all that effort was channeled into finding a cure.

                    So anyway, to save me from joining these “debates” every day for the rest of my short life, here’s what happened –

                    1) Neil Armstrong went to the moon.
                    2) Obama was born in the USA
                    3) The Holocaust happened
                    4) Terrorists hi-jacked planes and attacked buildings on 9/11.
                    5) France won the Rugby World Cup.

                    Cheers.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:29 pm

                      Don’t forget:

                      6) Contrails are not chemicals
                      7) HAARP does not cause earthquakes
                      8) The Pope is not a lizard 

                    • insider …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:39 pm

                      re # 5

                      That would have been the secret offline WC that only John Key and his bankster mates could afford to go to as opposed to the ones I’ve seen where France got beaten in the finals or before.

                • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:35 pm

                  Conspiracy theorists can all be classified as “right wing” for the simple reason that the things they believe are all bullshit, the arguments they employ are feeble and frankly delusional, and their motivation is paranoid suspicion of the government.

                  The individual details of their delusions are irrelevant.

                  They may believe themselves to be left wing, but they also believe themselves to be right about the moon landings.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 September 2012 at 4:39 pm

                    “Conspiracy theorists can all be classified as “right wing”

                    Suuuure…

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:43 pm

                      The right wing is characterised by people who promote anecdote and advocacy over evidence. Show me how that is different from the average conspiracy theorist.

                      “Reality has a liberal bias” – get over it.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:46 pm

                      Hugo Chavez is a right-winger?

                      Are you seriously trying to tell me that there has never been a left-wing conspiracy theorist?

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:49 pm

                      If he believes conspiracist bullshit, yes, but Chavez is first and foremost a populist – hence his deification of Bolivar.

                      PS: by definition, the left attempts to form policy on the basis of factual analysis. Can you see how people who make stuff up don’t exactly fit the mould?

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 4:53 pm

                      Hugo Chavez says the USA caused the Haiti earthquakes:


                       

                      So there can never be a left-wing conspiracy theorist because they believe “things they believe are all bullshit, the arguments they employ are feeble and frankly delusional and their motivation is paranoid suspicion of the government.”

                      Outside of the paranoid suspicion of government you have just described religious people too, who also believe things that “are all bullshit, the arguments they employ are feeble and frankly delusional”.

                      “by definition, the left attempts to form policy on the basis of factual analysis. Can you see how people who make stuff up don’t exactly fit the mould?”

                      So Christians can’t be left-wing either?
                      What about people who believe in their own forms of spirituality? They have just ‘made stuff up’, can they not be leftists?

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:00 pm

                      “It’s not up to you…”

                      Sure it isn’t, but I think my definition works a lot better than vague notions of the “political spectrum”.

                      Perhaps it’s easier to consider policy – with fact based policy on the left by definition, and other approaches (the sociopathic novels of Ayn Rand, the notions of the Chicago School etc.) on the right.

                      If you can cite a single example of a fact-based right wing policy that works as intended (ie: does what it’s author claimed it would) I’m all ears.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:06 pm

                      You are going a little off topic here.

                      But I’ll give you an example of a left-wing conspiracy theorist.

                      There is a highly popular Chemtrail movie called “What in the World are they spraying”and in it that interview a family running an organic farm who are complaining about the chamtrails ruining their crops so that they are forced into buying seeds from the big corporates. they were mad that people might destroy the environment for profit.

                      You’ll have to watch to understand but this family was in no way right-wing.

                    • Bill …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:10 pm

                      S’cuse me for butting in, but is it true or not true to claim that only right winger’s believe in God?

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:14 pm

                      Says you. I note their suspicion of corporate influence puts them squarely in Tea-Bagger territory.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:14 pm

                      @Bill
                      No that isn’t true.
                      My sister, for example, supports her left-wing beliefs with faith in Jesus and his message of tolerance and forgiveness as well as her environmentalism with Gods command to look after his creation

                      @KTH
                      It also puts them in with Occupy Wall Street

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:16 pm

                      Bill, I’d put it differently – I’d say that belief in god, based as it in on anecdotes and advocacy, is right-wing.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:18 pm

                      So anyone who believes in God is right-wing?

                    • lprent []
                      11 September 2012 at 6:30 pm

                      Wouldn’t agree with that at all. I’ve never noticed much correlation of religious faith with political leanings.

                      I have noticed a correlation with noisy in your face religious nutters trying to tell others how they should live their lives with being right wing. But I suspect that being right wing and being judgemental interfering busybodies fusspots is the correlation – not an ability to have faith.

                      After all we only have to look at Whaleoil (I’d use some of my distant relatives as examples – but they don’t blog) to see the obsessional lengths that sticky beak obsession can get to – even when he hadn’t succumbed to being (possibly) serious about having a religious addiction.

                      I much prefer those who prefer to live the religion and lead by example rather than merely being loud and obnoxious about it. Like a few of our authors around here who are definitely left-wing AND religious.

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:21 pm

                      No. read what I said – the fact of belief despite evidence is right wing, not the person.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:26 pm

                      So if a person can still be left-wing if the believe in god despite belief in god being right wing then it stands to reason a believer in conspiracy theories can be left wing also.

                      Following the logic as you have described.  

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:31 pm

                      Hmm. You may be onto something there.

                      To rephrase: since left wing philosophy attempts to pay attention to reality. conspiracy theories are necessarily right wing, irrespective of the political affiliations of the individual victim. 🙂

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 6:05 pm

                      Well, this has been an interesting discussion, thanks KTH.

                      Time for dinner. Enjoy ya evening buddy.

                • Pascal's bookie …
                  11 September 2012 at 4:57 pm

                  What make’s them like the KKK?

                  Ok, just quickly while dinner is combobulating itself;

                  KKK are defunct in all but name, they are pretty much a reinactment society these days. The same instincts that drove them, natavism, fear and mistrust of the elites, etc, are what drove the rise of the militia movement in the eighties which really took off on the nineties.

                  NWO was a code that started to replace the older ZOG (zion occupied government, subtle stuff eh) then G.H.W. Bush uttered the NWO phrase when talking about his Iraqi adventure, and boom, cross cultural NWO reference between left and right conspirologists, someone they both hated using the phrase in an adventure they both mistrusted.

                  After that, cross pollination was enivitable, Alex Jones catapulted a lot of the ideas as he’d put anyone and everyone on his show. You’ve got waco and Ruby ridge and all that stuff leading up to the Murray bombing, all of that was pretty much on the right side, with the militia movements and the sovereign citizen dudes.

                  The righties pretty much calmed down after the truck bombing, and the lefties took the front running on 911. they hated GWB and weere receptive to the truther movement, the TM got pushed by Alex Jones, and voila, the stuff that the Militia movement formulated started to get tacked onto the grand theory; NWO, FEMA camps, black helicopters and all that jazz.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 September 2012 at 4:59 pm

                    Good analysis there PB.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:19 pm

                      You like that?

                      here’s some weapons garde irony for you.

                      That link upthread to today’s NYT about the CIA warnings that GWB ignored.

                      He ignored them because the neocons he’d appointed to the pentagon (Feith et al) had their own conspiracy theory about terrorism. The Oklahoma bombing was the work of Saddam Hussein according to these clowns. Pretty basic thread of neocon thinking is that states are the bees-knees of international politics.

                      NGOs, (including militant groups), are powerless and ipso facto fronts for states. The green and anti-nuke movements were a front for the sov1ets. hizbollah = Iran. etc. So the oklahoma bombing had to be the work of a foriegn power,, tadaaa, Iraq.

                      So, they focussed the shit on the axis of evil and star wars and rogoue states, and ignored the shit out of the CIA and Clinton’s warnings about AQ. As far as they were concerned, AQ didn’t have the support of a powerful state so was not a threat. Nek minnit.

                      Now, the irony bomb.

                      Truthers and the like are mostly Nader supporters.

                      No Nader vote in 2000, Gore wins, neocons don’t take over the intel at the pentagon, the CIA doesn’t get ignored, Clintons anti AQ taskforce actually gets worked up.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 5:25 pm

                      Nevermind Nader, truthers these days are all Ron Paul Revolution baby

              • travellerev …
                11 September 2012 at 4:04 pm

                Umm,
                Here is where I draw the line. I can handle a lot of trolling but this is just downright slandering and trolling of the nastiest lowest level.
                I request the moderators have a look at what the voice is making me out to be.

                I object strongly to the fact that Te Reo Putake has been given total freedom to slander, stigmatise and smear without ever having been called to task about the total lack of rebuttal he has given to my links and information. Most people here are at least partly interested to respond but this is just not cool.
                Smearing people with KKK associations is basically saying he it’s ok to compare people to the Nazi’s (the use of the word for which I will no doubt disappear in purgatory) without any repercussions.
                You are letting te Reo Putake behave like a bully while others have being banned for less that this.

                [lprent: I agree on the KKK comparison. There was no reason stated why to use that as a comparison. That made it largely pointless.

                However the use of “KKK” has generally been contextually correct in recent times
                http://thestandard.org.nz/?s=KKK&isopen=block&search_comments=true&search_sortby=date
                With exception of Fran O’Sullivan being a idiot of course…

                So I’m unlikely to start banning on a instance of its usage. However what is more irritating is its repetition in the replies. Most of those appear to be in the context of either asking why it was being used as a comparison, or history on the KKK.. If it starts getting to turgid then I auto-moderate the word and start banning.

                Nazi isn’t in the auto-moderation at present. It hasn’t been misused for some time. However “troll” is.. I’ll keep a closer eye on the OpenMike discussions. I do have a tendency to ignore reading some topics out of sheer boredom. ]

              • Te Reo Putake …
                11 September 2012 at 6:29 pm

                Hey, LP, I stand by the comment. And I provided more than adequate historical and topical context in the first para.
                 
                That organisation has now effectively fractured and its adherents are now most often found in like minded movements. At the nastiest end, that’s the white power groups. But many are attracted to the various kinds of ‘the gummint is out ta getcha’ beliefs. That is the case for birthers and truthers; they are a safe haven for people who think they look fetching in a sheet.
                 
                That doesn’t mean I think Ev is a Grand Knight, by the way. But as a climate change denier, a birther and a truther, she must know she walks in their world.

                • lprent …
                  11 September 2012 at 9:50 pm

                  Everyone thinks everyone else is some kind of nutter – which is why I usually don’t bother with moderating nutty behaviour when I am moderating*. I mostly look at the things that are going to cause flow problems in the debate.

                  I’m afraid the playing “pin the obsolete historical label on the donkey” seldom works to enhance debate. It usually just causes really dumb debate about semantics and is typically done to dumb down the debate into a boring tit for tat.

                  So you’d have noticed that when a historical or semi-historic label gets overused and is primarily used for starting flamewars that the word tends to wind up in the auto moderation pretty fast and I leave it there for a long time. It is my favored technique to un-Godwin my part of the net. Be fresh…

                  As a general rule I find that making up a new label (and making it sticky) usually works better to reflect a new way of being daft. This goes for everything from ABC’s to truthers to the Peters lynchmob. So I don’t usually get in the way of this developing shorthand language.

                  Now I associate KKK with dumb and vicious economic exploitation which incidentally used a racial component, religous overtones, political elitism, and some really stupid psuedo science as justification. Most people will have some variant of a combinaion of those factors in mind when they view KKK as a comparision.

                  I can’t really see much in common with Tev’s obsessions. No economic basis, no exploitation, no religous hypocrites, little evidence of political effect etc… Even her science is well argued even if I personally think it is more hopeful than accurate.

                  Arguing that they share a conspiracy theory as a commonality (which I have seen a bit of here today) is a bit of a stretch – it is hard to find a single group anywhere in the world that does not.

                  Doesn’t matter if it is a millionaires country club or a meeting of unionists or a cargo cult in 1950’s New Guinea, the only thing they will have in common apart from being of the same species is a group paranoia that always expresses as a conspiracy theory. It is like arguing that animals with fur are all the same species because they all have fleas and scratch.

                  * Except (there is always an exception) I seldom moderate climate change posts myself except for people wallpapering my posts. I can use them to keep my atrophied live dissection techniques and skills honed. So people usually don’t get my more moderate behaviour there – they get an old wolf exercising instead.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    11 September 2012 at 9:58 pm

                    “So people usually don’t get my more moderate behaviour there – they get an old wolf exercising instead.”

                    Been hitting the cognac tonight, Old Wolf? Feeling that over inflated sense of self-confidence that comes with 2 shots of heavy liquor and a dose of banhammer?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      11 September 2012 at 10:20 pm

                      You been having a few shots of Irrelevant Pain in the Ass yourself I’m guessing, right?

                    • TheContrarian …
                      11 September 2012 at 10:25 pm

                      Don’t worry kid, one day you’ll make moderator.

                    • lprent …
                      11 September 2012 at 10:28 pm

                      Nope. Lyn drank most of the wine. She had a hard day… Because she started at 0530

                      I just went to bed early (because of that 0530 gym) rather than attacking the next feature requirement for work. That means I have some spare time to explain in more detail than usual.

                      But have you ever seen me in climate change posts when someone starts being stupid? It really is a lot of fun going hard out tearing others weak arse arguments apart while doing the picador trick wih their egos and winding their blood pressure up. It is something that I have been doing on various forms of the net for decades. Like all things, experience and practise count quite a lot.

                      Problem is that I’m working too hard at present to have time. But on October 1 we should freeze the code, and I get more free time.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      12 September 2012 at 1:26 am

                      Don’t worry kid, one day you’ll make moderator.

                      Just what we need, a Tory Telepath

              • Vicky32 …
                13 September 2012 at 5:24 pm

                As I’ve said before, 9/11 truthers are just the KKK at the keyboard. More fool those that give them any credence.

                Two words: Utter bollices.

      • joe90 16.3.3
        11 September 2012 at 1:51 pm

        Plain thermite= Aluminium and Iron powder?

        Err….thermite is a fuel, iron, aluminium, magnesium, zinc etc, and an oxidiser, iron oxide, copper oxide etc, and a thermal lance can be as mundane as a length of galvanised steel pipe filled with welding rod butts with one end connected to an oxygen source.

  18. starlight 18
    11 September 2012 at 11:31 am

    The southland times today has a cartoon of ‘monkey’ at apec,the online version of
    the paper will have it,i have the paper version.

  19. BillODrees 19
    11 September 2012 at 12:28 pm

    “Labour Party leader David Shearer has rejected suggestions that making national standards optional for schools would create a confusing dual education system.”. Today’s NZ Herald.

    This is a position Shearer should not be in. In trying to please each side he frustrates both. Not good.

  20. chris73 20
    11 September 2012 at 1:03 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833189

    Sucks to be a Labour supporter. The Greens on the other hand…

    • Te Reo Putake 20.1
      11 September 2012 at 1:28 pm

      Er, sux to believe what you read in the Herald, Chris. It’s an online survey and therefore meaningless. But if believing that Labour isn’t going to lead the next Government cheers you up on a wintery day, all power to you.

      • gobsmacked 20.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 2:02 pm

        The Herald Digi-Poll isn’t an online survey. It’s the traditional phone poll.

        From the evidence of last year, it was clear that those polls slightly overestimate National support. But that doesn’t change the underlying problem for Labour. In a period of several weeks where many things have been going badly for the government, the main opposition party has failed to make ground. Even allowing for the margin of error, they have been static at best.

        This is entirely as expected, and discussed countless times on this blog. When there is a vacuum, somebody will fill it – whether it’s the Greens, NZ First, even Colin Craig. It is Labour themselves who created the vacuum – starting with the leadership.

        Voters have not been switching to Labour simply because they had no reason to. On Sunday, that finally changed … about nine months late. Can they follow it up?

        • chris73 20.1.1.1
          11 September 2012 at 2:11 pm

          Burn…

          • gobsmacked 20.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2012 at 2:18 pm

            Rest assured Chris, that when the left finally dump the time-servers and no-hopers, only the Nats will be burning.

        • Te Reo Putake 20.1.1.2
          11 September 2012 at 2:28 pm

          Yes, quite right about the DigiPoll. I thought Chris was referring to the related reader poll which has Labour on 22%, the Greens on 14%.

          However, Chris is still wrong when it comes to the NZH Digipoll, which is another bad result for the Government and confirms the trend shown in the most recent Roy Morgans’ that the opposition parties now have the majority support. Given that this particular poll consistently rates National 3-5% higher than reality, this really is a shocker for Team Key.

          • chris73 20.1.1.2.1
            11 September 2012 at 2:43 pm

            I always wondered what happened to Comical Ali…

            • Te Reo Putake 20.1.1.2.1.1
              11 September 2012 at 2:54 pm

              So, not a big fan of facts then, Chris? Sux to be you.

              • chris73 …
                11 September 2012 at 3:14 pm

                Facts yes, opinion not so much

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  11 September 2012 at 3:24 pm

                  Er, quite. You do realise that the item you linked to at the start of this thread is an opinion poll? That uncomfortable prickly feeling you are now experiencing will be that ‘burn’ you mentioned a few minutes ago.
                   

                  • chris73 …
                    11 September 2012 at 3:34 pm

                    Ok I could see how you might think that except that its the only way to find out how people are going to vote. I would like to use my crystal ball instead but its not working at the moment so I’ll have to go with an opinion poll.

                    But don’t worry I’m sure its just a rogue poll…

                    • McFlock …
                      11 September 2012 at 7:40 pm

                      Um – what was it, a fraction of a percent change up to 48-odd percent with minimal party friends, from a poll that was in favour of the nats by 3% just before the election? Not exactly “rogue”. Static and to close to call if there were an election tomorrow, more like.
                                 
                      Either bloc is in a position to lose this election, but neither would be assuming victory just yet.

          • gobsmacked 20.1.1.2.2
            11 September 2012 at 3:29 pm

            the NZH Digipoll, which is another bad result for the Government

            It really isn’t, and I really don’t think that you think so either, TRP.

            The poll tells us that a large number of Labour voters are picking Key over Shearer. That’s a shocker. Even people who want the government out don’t see the Labour leader as a future PM. And that’s not at all surprising, becasue he obviously isn’t.

            • Te Reo Putake 20.1.1.2.2.1
              11 September 2012 at 3:47 pm

              “The poll tells us that a large number of Labour voters are picking Key over Shearer.”
               
              Yeah, Key is popular. I already knew that, but as we don’t directly elect our PM’s, it’s not a concern. Remember, Goff was way less popular than Shearer is and he came within a whisker of being PM at the last election.
               
              What counts is the blocs and at the moment, the opposition is in the ascendency. That’s now confirmed by the Herald poll, which as we know, is the most blue tinged of all of them. If I remember correctly, Granny had National at over 50% in the days before the last election and the actual result was a wafer thin majority. Now that the Herald records National at significantly less than 50%, it’s fair to assume that the trend picked up by the Roy Morgans is correct and that a Labour led Government is now at least as likely an outcome as a National led one.
               
              It’s probably time Key was rolled, so that National don’t lose too heavily 😉

              • gobsmacked …
                11 September 2012 at 4:13 pm

                Yes, it’s perfectly possible that Labour could lead a bloc, with the Greens, NZ First and maybe Mana/Maori (whoever’s left standing).

                But that is setting the bar so low. Labour could – should – aim to form a majority Labour/Green government (e.g. 40/10, 38/12). Labour could – should – be riding a wave of public disenchantment right now. What do they need? 10% unemployment?

                It’s possible for Labour MPs to spend the next two years in a deep sleep, and still have the numbers after MMP negotiations. It’s possible for Shearer to become PM just by dithering along, and hoping National continue to screw the country. But as a strategy and vision, it’s feeble. Because that vacuum is going to be filled by somebody. Do Labour want Winston at 10%? Do they want some nutjob from “Investigate” to hold them to ransom?

                Their job is to maximise the Labour vote. Not hope somebody else maximises the opposition vote, and then demands God knows what post-election.

                Politics in a nutshell – work out what your opponents want. Then don’t give it to them. So what do National want? Labour/Shearer to continue just as they have been. That’s the answer, right there.

    • mike e 20.3
      11 September 2012 at 4:20 pm

      The herald also points out $ 1 billion being wasted on consultants since National have been at the helm

  21. Pete 21
    11 September 2012 at 2:32 pm

    The Crown and Tuhoe reach a settlement

    Credit where it’s due, Chris Finlayson deserves recognition in his efforts to redress the grievances. He’s one of the few National MPs I find tolerable.

    • millsy 21.1
      11 September 2012 at 8:40 pm

      Seems to me to be an OK compromise I can live with. Devil will be in the detail though

      It will be interesting to watch the self governance arragements for Tuhoe unfold. Though I am a bit concerned that this is a stalking horse for privatisation/shrinking of the welfare state.

      I actually think that the government should have offered Tuhoe an option to purchase a share in the Waikaremoana power scheme, that has actually huge potential. In practise, the operation of the plant would still rest with Genesis, but Tuhoe would be able to share in the revenue generated — maybe even set up its own power retailer for its rohe — creating jobs, etc..

    • Blue 21.2
      11 September 2012 at 8:50 pm

      Chris Finlayson is good with the Treaty settlements, but in any other context I wouldn’t call him tolerable. He’s incredibly hard to listen to in Parliament because every time he opens his mouth he’s full of sneering condescension.

  23. Morrissey 23
    11 September 2012 at 5:19 pm

    Is Matt Dillon Shannon being supported by Garth McVicar

    and the Sensible Sentencing Trust?

    And if not, why not?

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Teenager-set-fire-to-friend/tabid/423/articleID/268931/Default.aspx

    • millsy 23.1
      11 September 2012 at 8:57 pm

      Not too sure what you mean there…

      • fatty 23.1.1
        11 September 2012 at 11:23 pm

        I think Morrissey is suggesting that the sensible sentencing trust is very selective about who they target, and who they consider a victim.
        The sensible sentencing trust promote fear, are illogical in their demands, and conveniently forget about white collar crime. They hate poor people more than they hate crime.
        If Matt Dillon Shannon poured petrol on a middle aged, middle class person, and then set them on fire…do you think Garth McVicar would ignore it?

        • Morrissey 23.1.1.1
          12 September 2012 at 6:22 pm

          If Matt Dillon Shannon poured petrol on a middle aged, middle class person, and then set them on fire…do you think Garth McVicar would ignore it?

          Actually, I was simply giving Mr McVicar the courtesy of treating him seriously and assuming he was consistent. If he were a serious and consistent thinker, he would support the actions of Matt Dillon Shannon, and be all over the media pouring abuse and calumny on the head of his victim.

      • Morrissey 23.1.2
        12 September 2012 at 6:30 pm

        Not too sure what you mean there…

        Oh come on, millsy, you must remember this….
        http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09032011/#comment-306178

  24. Robert Atack 24
    11 September 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Way to much reality here

    http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/festival/play/7350/Call-of-Life–Facing-the-Mass-Extinction

    Call of Life: Facing the Mass Extinction
    Director: Monte Thompson | Producer: Chera Van Burg
    Genre: Documentary | Produced In: 2010

    Synopsis: If current trends continue, scientists warn that within a few decades at least HALF of all plant and animal species on Earth will disappear forever. “Call of Life: Facing the Mass Extinction” is the first feature documentary to investigate the growing threat to Earth’s life support systems from this unprecedented loss of biodiversity. Through interviews with leading scientists, psychologists, historians, and others, the film explores the causes, the scope, and the potential effects of the mass extinction, but also looks beyond the immediate causes of the crisis to consider how our cultural and economic systems, along with deep-seated psychological and behavioral patterns, have allowed and continue to reinforce the situation, and even determine our response to it. “Call of Life” tells the story of a crisis not only in nature, but also in human nature, a crisis more threatening than anything human beings have ever faced before.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    The Dodo didn’t matter. But have you got a plan Bee?

    [lprent: I fail to see the relevance to the post. Moved to OpenMike. Don’t make me have to fix attempted thread jacking too often. I eventually make the problem extinct. ]

  25. Oscar 25
    11 September 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Goodbye Fisher and Paykel.

    Another NZ company affected by fuckwittage and exchange rates.

    Long Live The Emperor!