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Open Mike 12/02/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 12th, 2018 - 192 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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192 comments on “Open Mike 12/02/2018 ”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1

    Housing Crisis; 80-90% turned away from emergency housing.


    “…new report identifies a hidden homeless population that is not officially monitored by government agencies.

    More than 80 per cent of all homeless people turning up to community emergency housing providers in the last year were turned away because the system is bursting at the seams”

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1

      “Context box: Homelessness crisis• 8 to 9 out of every 10 homeless people turned away from emergency housing providers
      • Hidden homeless population with no official monitoring or recording
      • 1 in 100 live in severe housing deprivation in 2013 census, up from 1 in 120 in 2006 and 1 in 130 in 2001
      • Auckland Council says 23,409 in severe housing deprivation last year, up 3000 from the 2013 census
      • 7725 on state house waiting list, up 5 per cent from Sept quarter
      • MBIE figures show a nationwide shortfall of 71,000 houses; 45,000 in Auckland”

      I note nothing said in this article about disabled who often suffer in unsuited accommodation.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.2

      Mum applies for 100 properties in three months. Will move anywhere


    • Ed 1.3

      More and more of the lies of the previous government being revealed.
      Needs investigation, trials, convictions and some serious sentencing.

      • James 1.3.1

        If they were indeed criminal – the current government would indeed do so.

        It’s pretty obvious you aren’t a lawyer

        • Stuart Munro

          God help us if lawyers ever became the standard by which we judge politicians.

          • James


            Very good.

            It still it would be better than Eddie choosing what’s criminal or not.

            • andrew murray

              @ James,
              and perhaps you should think about the implication in both Ed’s and your own comment… that the reason they will never be charged is that politicians make the laws that willfully fail to illegalize profitable amoral behaviours.

            • adam

              At least Ed has a moral compass, which is more than anyone can say for such a blatant opportunist like you james.

              • James

                You mean the same ed who tells lies and states knowledge of things he has none of including my persona circumstances

                Or the Ed who makes incorrect statements and refuses to roll back when provided with absolute proof he is wrong ?

                Sorry mate – he has a magnet sitting under his magnet.

              • Ed

                James is not a real person.
                He is a construct of the fevered imagination of wealthy right wingers.
                I feel sad for the person typing the contradictory nonsense ‘James’ types.
                What a ghastly job.

            • Draco T Bastard


              Ed’s merely pointing out a simple fact – that all immoral actions need to be illegal.

              Actions like winding up a business to avoid paying fines and restitution as happen far too often.

              And, yes, the lies of the previous government should be illegal. No parliament should be able to lie and get away with it. Not just in the MSM but by any body with the evidence to say You’re lying and the MPs, at the very least, lose their seat.

              Admittedly, not many National MPs would be left standing.

              • James

                You are wrong he stated clearly their actions were criminal- I was pointing out they weren’t.

                You are making false equivalence

                • They may not have been illegal but they were certainly immoral. And that latter certainly makes them criminal.

                • KJT

                  James. Don’t you think it should be illegal to lie, to get political power?

                  Or declare bankruptcy, to avoid legal and moral responsibilities, when you have enough money to pay them?

                  Mind you. The right wing thinks “personal responsibility” is only for poor people.

              • mikes

                “that all immoral actions need to be illegal.”

                How can that ever be a good thing? Who decides what is immoral and therefore illegal?

                • Ed

                  We already do that mikes
                  Heard that murder is illegal?

                  Moral relativism certainly helped the neoliberal cause.

                  • mikes

                    You could make an argument that some instances of murder could be considered moral. For example if someone raped and murdered my 6 year old daughter it would be moral (certainly in my mind) for me to murder them. However it would still be unlawful for me to do so and I would expect to go to prison.

                    But I was thinking about less serious things where people may have differing moral standards. For example, Many people might consider cheating on your spouse immoral, but surely it shouldn’t be a crime? Same goes for using recreational drugs, etc?

                • How can that ever be a good thing?

                  How can it not?
                  What makes allowing immoral actions good?

                  Who decides what is immoral and therefore illegal?


                  And, as Ed points out, moral relativism and subjectivism have been proved, through logic, to be bunk.

                  • mikes

                    I’m not understanding you sorry. How can logic be applied to something like moral or immoral behaviour? There’s nothing innately logical about morals. Logic is a mathematical function, morality cannot always be resolved or described logically.(IMO)

                    Remember I was arguing (essentially) that not all immoral behaviour should be a criminal offense, rather common sense should be used to determine which immoral behaviors are serious enough or wrong enough to deem someone a criminal; and have them suffer the consequences (legal ones) for that behaviour. Which is essentially what the Justice system ( the politicians who pass legislation I mean) tries to do even though it gets things really really wrong sometimes (eg recreational drug use laws, etc)

                    • There’s nothing innately logical about morals.

                      Actually, there is. In fact, it is the only way to determine an actual position.

                      Logic is a mathematical function, morality cannot always be resolved or described logically.(IMO)

                      Which just proves that you opinion is worthless.

                      Remember I was arguing (essentially) that not all immoral behaviour should be a criminal offense

                      So, you’re saying that some immoral actions are Ok? Murder maybe? Or rape? Both have been legal at some point and people have argued that they should’ve have allowed to be. It’s why it took so long to make rape in marriage an actual crime.

                      rather common sense

                      Common sense is about as useful as your opinion for that.

                  • mikes

                    Replying to this post because couldn’t reply to your other comment.

                    Angry much?

                    “There’s nothing innately logical about morals.
                    Actually, there is. In fact, it is the only way to determine an actual position.”

                    = A Wikipedia link, that;s awesome. If that’s the case then how is it that we often take illogical positions? How do you define the logic that is used? For example what is logical for society may not be logical if applied to an individual?

                    “Logic is a mathematical function, morality cannot always be resolved or described logically.(IMO)
                    Which just proves that you opinion is worthless.”

                    That’s not what my Mum told me.

                    “Remember I was arguing (essentially) that not all immoral behaviour should be a criminal offense
                    So, you’re saying that some immoral actions are Ok?”

                    HaHaha.. That’s hilarious. No, I’m not saying that. What I said was…”that not all immoral behaviour should be a criminal offense” You managed to get from that to “So, you’re saying that some immoral actions are Ok?” in the very next sentence.

                    (Just in case though, I was saying “that not all immoral behaviour should be a criminal offense”) Further to your comment on that, is it your position that smoking a joint should remain a criminal offense? Some people would call it immoral behaviour? What about gay sex? Some people would say that is immoral, does that mean it should be a crime again? Should it be a crime to be promiscuous?

                    My main point really was to ask how we determine what is moral and what is not. Also, could you follow a logical process and yet end up with the logical position to take being the immoral one?

                    “Murder maybe? Or rape? Both have been legal at some point and people have argued that they should’ve have allowed to be. It’s why it took so long to make rape in marriage an actual crime.”

                    You’re really clutching at straws now. I don’t think my comment could in any way be read as me saying murder and rape are ok could it?

                    “Common sense is about as useful as your opinion for that.”

                    Thanks for that. But you did state earlier that you think my opinion is worthless so now are you suggesting (not saying) that common sense is worthless too? I see a quote from Voltaire in your link, that was in the early 1700’s so I think not so much these days as most people (In New Zealand) are educated in these modern times. Regardless of you’re opinion that common sense doesn’t exist, or is worthless, we all know (you included) what we mean when we talk about common sense. To argue against such is childish and pompous.

                    When You say ” what makes allowing immoral actions good?” good for who, an individual, society, the country, humankind? How are you defining immoral actions? Is there a list? And how is it determined if they are good or bad? What if they are neither? Who decides what they are? Allowing is slightly different from not criminalizing is it not? I just don’t think it’s that clear cut at all..

                    Maybe you could take a chill pill and note that when someone starts a comment with “I’m not understanding you….”, that probably means that they would like you to help them understand your position a bit better? That’s a part of good constructive discussion is it not?

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2

    Secure Drop launched by Stuff. Used and promoted by the Freedom of Press Foundation.


  3. Cinny 3

    What are we doing in Iraq?

    “New Zealand’s mission in Iraq has undergone a significant change, without the public being told.

    Since last year, soldiers have moved beyond a purely training role, taking up new responsibilities to help Iraqi forces plan and conduct military operations.”

    This appears to have happened under nationals watch, they were such an honest bunch (sarc!!). How many more of the national government and defence force lies will be exposed?


    Looking forward to some clarity from Ron once all the cards are on the table.

    • alwyn 3.1

      You are a true optimist. You did see the last line in the link I trust.
      “A spokesperson for Defence Minister Ron Mark said he was unavailable to comment.”.
      Ron is far too busy rearranging his collection of ribbons on his coat.
      He isn’t going to tell you anything. According to his own stories he served in the Middle East with the SAS and they never talk.

  4. Ed 4

    Looks like the last government ramped up its military participation in Iraq and did not tell us.

    Mark Mitchell was the Minister of Defence at the time.

    Mark Mitchell was involved in mercenary work in Iraq.

    He ‘“worked for eight years as a private security contractor and spent time in Iraq, including the siege of the Italian-run An Nasiriyah compound in Southern Iraq by the Mahdi militia in 2004.”

    Mark Mitchell got help from Simon Lusk.

    “In 2014, Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics presented evidence which suggested that Mitchell had hired political strategist Simon Lusk during the National Party selection process for the Rodney electorate. Lusk appeared to have collaborated with blogger Cameron Slater to discredit Mitchell’s opponents, particularly Brent Robinson. ”


    • savenz 4.1

      Read dirty politics for information about how Mark Mitchell got his plumb MP role and undermined other National MP candidates, using Slater’s services.

      • Cinny 4.1.1

        Thanking you for that tip SaveNZ…. love the index at the back of the book, such a handy tool.

      • Ed 4.1.2

        Thank you.
        Have read Dirty Politics and remember Mitchell’s name.
        Emergency housing, Iraq.
        What else did the previous government hide from us?

        • Robert Guyton

          His undying support for Simon Bridges? His close friendship with Chris Bishop? Eh, amigo?

  5. savenz 5

    Auckland congestion charge gets support from Chamber of Commerce


    Love it, Sarc. So they bring 60% of migrants into Auckland to help places like Sky city and hotels ‘struggling’ to find cheap workers, and to invest over 5 million in NZ property and assets.

    Now many Kiwis can’t afford to live in the central suburbs anymore which are 2 million plus and even places that used to be $350k are now $800k.

    Then everyone told, don’t worry the crisis would involve making land available on the outskirts, which jacked up the land prices and created transport chaos.

    So what happens to Auckland’s poorer citizens – oh more charges added – a congestion charge.

    The transport never arrived obviously, and is to expensive anyway with the dwindling wages being offered to workers.

    What happened to the fairer ‘petrol’ tax, I wonder. Yep, folks who plan all this, often never get past Remuera, Herne Bay or the Ferries of Waiheke. Sometimes they live in Wellington and plan all this remotely.

    No wonder there is growing inequality. First people can’t afford to buy in their city, then they can’t afford to rent in their city, now they can’t afford to even enter the city if congestion charges goes ahead.

    Funny enough those crying over how they can’t get enough workers for the cafes and petrol stations at $2 p/w aren’t up in arms about this like they were when they were expected to pay $40k for each cheap worker to be imported in.

    • Ad 5.1

      We have plenty of tax on petrol already.
      Travel around Auckalnd doens’t have the price elasticity of smoking taxes, for example.

      There will never able to be a perfect inflection point between transport taxes and the poor.

      But the Minister and the Mayor should not debate options in public.
      They need to get their algorhythms and their maps out, and come out with the best option.

      My pessimistic instinct is that this debate will wait until after the Government’s tax working group has come up with recommendations, to ensure that a further tax on Aucklanders isn’t disproportionately loaded.

      • savenz 5.1.1

        @ ADComplete cop out.

        So far rate payers money from the council and AT seems concentrated in areas like recurbing the central suburbs like Ponsonby and putting cycle ways in that residents don’t even want they way they are forced on them.

        The ‘new’ proposal clearly is of benefit to vehicle drivers who are richer, live closer and live a more luxurious life. they already get cycle lanes and multiple ways to travel with public transport and now no commuter tax.

        If you are using petrol but not at commuter times (aka trucks driving around which anybody who drives around Auckland will see everywhere at all times of day) clogging up and damaging the roads and the council just keeps granting those consents for more industrial congestion aka – James Hardie whose just received permission to have 100,000 extra trucks proposed to use the unsealed Kaukapakapa road. https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/nor-west-news/99727284/Fears-a-child-will-be-hit-by-one-of-proposed-Auckland-sand-mines-100-000-trucks. More on Irish headquartered, James Hardie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hardie_Industries

        How about a tax on employers employing people on temporary and overseas work permits? Why should poorer and other residents supposed to pay for their choices?
        How about a commuter tax on trucks to encourage rail.

        If we already can’t have enough teachers to afford to live in Auckland, what’s more commuter charges gonna do to them?

        Not only is a commuter tax clearly not fair, it also encourages cars but at different times of the day and then people start trying to avoid the congestion areas so other areas become congested.

        If there is to be a tax it should be a flat tax on petrol and diesel which will controls people who use motor vehicles and trucks. And that is what people in Auckland need.

        • savenz

          And that is what people in Auckland need…. Oh and less people.

        • Ad

          Exactly what is a cop out?

          The cycleways you are opposing are precisely to enable non-petroleum transport. Cycling.

          The trucks you complain about use diesel, which have specific taxes on them through RUC.

          So, obviously, there are already substantial petrol and diesel taxes, and they often go up.

          The poorer residents of Auckland get subsidised dumptrucks of taxpayer money every time they buy a ticket for the bus or train. Which is awesome, but everyone has to make a case to the actual voting public if you are going to raise taxes. And that is mighty hard.

          Why don’t you pull back declaiming about what is or is not fair, and wait for an actual proposal on the table from the government to comment on.

          • Molly

            Commuter cycleways should also be being planned for suburbs poorly served by Public Transport – and they are not.

            For example: Public Transport cost and options in South Auckland are abysmal and I can’t recall any notices about plans to introduce linked cycleways to areas in wider Auckland. Big projects are planned and promoted for neighbourhoods and communities that are already walkable, have high-level of public transport options and are well-serviced in regards to access to public amenities.

            Attempts to provide some basic infrastructure to South Auckland over the still being carved out gash through that region, would include innovative solutions such as the Hovenring in Eidenhoven, which could be used to link lighter traffic routes that could double as cycleways. Cost of installation in 2012, € 6.300.000.

            I have stopped reading Greater Auckland, because it seems to be centric Auckland focused, and would like to see them acknowledge that bias and influence and advocate for better services throughout Auckland’s region.

      • savenz 5.1.2

        @AD “But the Minister and the Mayor should not debate options in public.”

        Yes fascism is so now, and democracy is overrated. sarcasm.

        The power’s that be have had a good run fucking up the services of Auckland, so lets get them to do more of the same. I mean let’s face it, millions on public relations telling us we have a first class transport system in the making and having a free reign to screw Auckland’s over for the last decade, can’t be wrong can it?

        • savenz

          Just think is 3 years time, next election all the ammunition that’s gonna be there for National if they put in this commuter tax.

          So far, about to sign TPPA, bring in commuter tax, 200 overseas workers building the Hyatt and it continues…

          They really are looking after the ‘little guy’. sarcasm.

        • Ad

          If you don’t like what is proposed, the Auckland Council Long Term Plan is coming out for consultation. The last one altered about 25% as a result of the public consultation.

          Then of course you could write to the surprisingly accessible Minister Twyford about the NLTP, and Transport GPS, which he is actively working on.

          If you want a further democratic input, the local government elections are coming up next year.

          We have exceedingly accessible politicians in this country, who can be shown to react to public input evidentially.

          Like I said, there is no specific Auckland tax proposal to engage with, so just inhale for a bit and hold it.

          You can name all that as “fascism” if you like, but you might want to pray to the ghost of Anne Frank before you do.

    • Penny Bright 5.2

      How about making Auckland Transport PUBLIC again – instead of PUBLICLY-subsidised, PRIVATELY owned / operated and managed passenger transport?

      How much congestion is deliberately being created by Auckland Council / Auckland Transport to help push people on to PRIVATELY owned / operated and managed passenger transport?

      • savenz 5.2.1

        Yes, they need to get rid of AT as a COO and bring it back into the council. AT are useless and just want more and more money from ratepayers and passengers.

        For example some one was saying AT have had thousands more journeys and the HOP rates need to rise as well as more money from ratepayers. ????

        You have to wonder if more people are using a paid service, where is all the money going because it’s not going to the bus or train drivers on higher wages or a better service. The service seems worse aka less conductors on the trains, not being able to pay on board the train, etc etc.

        They need to simplify and increase the actual services – NOT employ consultants and more consultants and more middle men.

        Employ more drivers and have more service that is affordable. Transport isn’t that hard but somehow the money is being siphoned off outside of transport.

        • Draco T Bastard

          AT are useless and just want more and more money from ratepayers and passengers.

          Can you please stop spreading your BS about AT?

          COO’s were implemented by the previous government. Auckland Council can’t do anything about that and AT needs the money to address the transportation issues that you bring up.

          You have to wonder if more people are using a paid service, where is all the money going because it’s not going to the bus or train drivers on higher wages or a better service. The service seems worse aka less conductors on the trains, not being able to pay on board the train, etc etc.

          You do talk bollocks. Most of the money on the transport, on the infrastructure to build it. Yes, it would be better if the drivers were paid more.

          Having more conductors on the train is a waste of time and so is being able to pay on the train. Do need enough for safety reasons though.

          The bus and train services are better overall. Much better.

          They need to simplify and increase the actual services – NOT employ consultants and more consultants and more middle men.

          And how would you suggest they do the former if they don’t have the latter? How are they to design the services if they don’t have access to people who can do that?

          Transport isn’t that hard but somehow the money is being siphoned off outside of transport.

          Yes, it actually is that hard and this sentence of yours proves your ignorance of the matter.

          • Molly

            AT transport deserve criticism in certain areas of services: both transport and customer.

            We have a rural bus service that seems deliberately scheduled to avoid providing a useful service for residents and commuters to our local town centre, and/or connections to the train stations where it terminates. The first bus to leave our community goes at 10.37 am, and the last bus returns at 4.47 pm. This eliminates schoolchildren, many of whom go to school in Pukekohe or catch the train to other schools, and anyone with a nine-to-five job in the local town centre.

            Attempts to get information regarding this service was met by stonewalling. The existing pavement was uplifted and then reinstalled, making a section of the footpath noticeably lighter, but with no upgrade to surface, just replacement. No seating available or installed.

            In regards to customer services, I made the error of putting all my children’s Hop cards on my account for AT. (At the time, the website was atrocious, and I couldn’t face repeating the process several times.) When my son tried to get student verification for his card, he was refused as his card was not the main account holder. After two weeks of travelling on full fares this had not been resolved. AT responded to my queries about the differing information being given by AT reps at AUT, and AT Customer Services by saying that they cannot apply the student id to a linked card. They suggested I buy another Hop Card, register a separate account and then send in a request to be reimbursed for the original Hop Cards and any remaining monies.

            I have two other children attending tech this year, and hope this has been resolved. There is no indication on the registration page that there is a limitation to linked accounts – and also – once linked, you cannot unlink.

            The failure to address this concerns was exacerbated by the expectation that although the system is flawed – too bloody bad.

            Like savenz, I’m not impressed. And I am a passionate advocate of public transport and can’t understand how with so many worldwide examples of great ticketing and management transport systems we ended up with the current one.

            • Draco T Bastard

              I didn’t say that they were perfect but that they were making things better and they are.

              And I am a passionate advocate of public transport and can’t understand how with so many worldwide examples of great ticketing and management transport systems we ended up with the current one.

              Probably because it was cheaper. This is what it comes down to every time in NZ. We simply refuse to spend what’s needed and then complain when it doesn’t work and then not accepting that it was our demand for lower rates and lower taxes and cheaper prices that drove us to failure.

              • Molly

                My issue with them is that they treated a legitimate customer enquiry as a nuisance, and typically followed it up with a generic automated query “How did we do?”

                A good example of marketing veneer over flimsy structure.

                The decisions to allow non-passengers on platforms, and the almost hostile ticketing method are flaws that result from group thinking, and a failure to consider the safety of people not alighting in well-lit, busy neighbourhoods.

                I’m not convinced that they are trying to get better, but do think that they are becoming more adept at redirecting criticism.

    • When all you have is a hammer all problems look like a nail.

      What we have here is the market being applied to everything and it makes a certain amount of sense. The market and the pricing mechanism is there to restrict use of limited resources (Hence why politicians saying that charging for water is wrong BTW) and the streets of a city are a very limited resource. That means that if you want to restrict use of them then you need to charge for that use.

      One problem is that people actually do need to get to work, most of the work is centralised and most people aren’t paid enough to afford to go to work. These people need to get into the city.

      The other problem is that people are so used to driving their own vehicle now (especially after decades of designing our cities around personal cars) that they’re reluctant to change to using public transport. Thing is, they need to change. That’s no longer an option because of climate change and the simple fact that we can no longer afford to have personal cars (if we could ever afforded that is a fair question actually).

      We need to address these problems.

      All of them can be addressed by having the businesses pay directly for the transport of their workers to and from their home. This will both ensure that the workers can afford to go to work and go a long way to addressing the second problem as well as most driving is actually just to and from work. A business isn’t going to send personal taxies out to every worker – they’re going to send buses or, more likely, they’re going to provide their workers with HOP cards that the business keeps topped up.

      There will still be some idiots that want to drive and for them there’ll still be the congestion charges.

      This will remove most cars from the city streets which is what we need. It will decrease premature deaths from the pollution that the cars produce and reduce their GHG emissions as well.

      • Carolyn_Nth 5.3.1

        Yes. Plus, too much centralisation, means loads of people are traveling to the CBD for work and education.

        And then there’s those that want a waterfront stadium.

        How do they expect people will get to that stadium for events?

        • savenz


          Well, you probably can’t afford to attend events in Auckland anymore if you are on the average wage and live outside the 25km zone, so my guess is that the consultants that Auckland Council engage, expect people to cycle or helicoptor in from their Herne Bay mansion.

          Or they expect those with money to have a luxury apartment to live in or stay at the luxury Hyatt or Sky City convention center, that pokies from the poor paid for and overseas workers built with cheaper labour.

          That is, when they are not forcing dangerous cycle lanes that the public never wanted and few options discussed as what would be best (Westmere), and cutting down public trees (everywhere) while closing down traffic for months of local ethical businesses.

          • savenz

            Let them ride trucks! could be the mantra to the rate payers, as Auckland Council and the working tax group and the chamber of commerce and every other lobby group to support big business makes their case to make the poorer commuters pay more.

            Plus, doesn’t the diesel levy go to central government…

  6. Good morning Breakfast people excellent interview with the Dr from the
    Papatuanuku/World health I worked out that video game could become addictive in the days when Mario Brothers & Crash Banicoot first started .I chose not to play them to much as my main goal was to build a Maunga for my Whano this is one of my goals but not the main one now.
    ECO MAORI main goal is to influence OUR society to change into a equality humane just environmentally respecting SOCIETY . Will & Grace is a real funny show I know that if gisborne man had not been throwing me under arm bowls for the past 18 years my
    Maunga would be much bigger than it is at the minute he has all the crown resources at his disposal with that shiney object to and the sandflys virus to hypnotize the people .
    Kia kaha . P.S I have a lot of research to do so this will be my last post to you for the day
    the sandfly have been dumping green waste on a road by the farm trying to damage my Mana how desperate is that A fools .Ana to kai ka kite ano

  7. Good morning Rumble Rock radio when I heard about Jim the Jack russel and the Rock Radio banner I had a sore face and just about fell on my ass with laughter so funny Ka pai . I was listening to your show while milking . Tom Walsh he is a good humble kiwi I wont say to much as well you know why. P.S I have been gifted a radio from my Son In law and daughter so I will be listening most times I wont say which Super Rugby Team Im backing but you should be able to work it out Ka Kite Ano HaleyThese neolibreals like boob mones are the same type of people who ripped off the settlers from Briton 200 years ago and they have used there money to keep in power they have had a plan right from those days to dominate Aotearroa that is why such a small % 1 can have such a major negative influence on OUR society Ka Pai

  8. esoteric pineapples 8

    No one seems to be paying much attention to the Turkish invasion of northern Syria and yet is hugely important that the Syrian and Arab fighters in Afrin canton are supported internationally. Essentially, Turkey is using the very same ISIS and other Islamic fundamentalist fighters/mercenaries to attack Afrin as were fighting for ISIS, supported by its warplanes, tanks and other heavy weaponry. The aim of these fighters is to murder, rape, take sex slaves and plunder the same as under ISIS. Turkish president Erdogan has already indicated that Turkey plans to first take Afrin, and then the Arab controlled Manbij city which was freed from ISIS by the Kurds (along with Raqqua and other cities) and then all of rest of Kurdish controlled “Rojava” in northern Syria and put hard core fundamentalist militias in place under its command. He also planes to move millions of displaced Arab refugees presently in Turkey into northern Syria to displace and marginalise the Kurdish population. Apart from the horrific genocide that will ensue if Turkey succeeds in its aims, it will also extinguish the only democratic, secular, feminist and ecologically aware political/military force in the region. For all of these reasons and more the New Zealand government and progressive movement should be lending its moral support to the Syrian Kurds.

    “The Kurds deserve more than the friendship of their mountains, they deserve the solidarity of the international left, because not only is their existence and identity in danger but so too are the hopes of radical democracy and women’s liberation in the Middle East. Inside and outside Rojava, defending Afrin must become our imperative.”

    Meanwhile western countries happily sell arms to Turkey to kill innocent people:

    “Since 2005 more than 350 units of Leopard 1 and 2 tanks have been sold to Turkey and now cross the border to Syria in violation of international law. Turkish soldiers have been photographed repeatedly at the border areas with G3 rapid-fire rifles produced by German weapons manufacturer Heckler & Koch. When President Erdoğan visited Theresa May in 10 Downing Street on January 27, 2017, she signed a sales contract worth almost €115 million for the construction of new TF-X brand fighter jets. A government spokeswoman added back then: “We assume that this will make further deals possible.”
    In January 2018, Erdoğan and French president Macron signed a preliminary agreement on the cooperation of the French-Italian weapon consortium Eurosam with the Turkish arms manufacturers Roketsan and Aselsan. Prior concessions were made for this deal already in September 2017, when Turkey released French journalist Loup Burea from prison. In addition, the Turkish Air Force has more than sixty “Mangusta” battle helicopters from Italian production in its arsenal, one of the reasons for the great joy at Erdoğan’s presence in Italy and the Vatican earlier this month.”

    Source: https://jacobinmag.com/2018/02/afrin-kurdistan-syria-turkey-erdogan-is-war

    “We have built up autonomous structures based on communal organising, women’s councils, academies, and cooperatives, as well as women’s self-defence. Through realizing that women’s solidarity is one of our most effective weapons, we have developed our collective strength and consciousness. Today, ten thousands of women have taken up arms to defend their land, their lives, and their future in Afrin. The resistance of the Women’s Defence Units YPJ and the women’s civil defence forces, Parastina Jinê, who have organised under the umbrella of the Women’s Movement of Rojava, Kongreya Star, are part of a women’s global resistance against any form of oppression, exploitation, femicide and fascism.
    While the international institutions and state governments keep silent about the abuses of international law and
    war crimes, we believe that women’s international solidarity will be our strongest weapon in defeating fascism and patriarchy. By stepping in the footprints of Ishtar and those women who created and defended communal life, we call upon women from all over the world to rise up for defending Afrin and the values of humanity!”

    Source: http://theregion.org/article/12765-kurdish-women-039-s-movement-of-rojava-call-for-global-solidarity-campaign-women-rise-up-for-afrin

    Some good pages on Facebook for anyone who wants to follow the battle etc

    Erdogan We Wont Be a Part of Your Crime Against the Kurds


    Kurdish Female Fighters (YPJ)


    YPG Armed Forces


    Save Afrin


    • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1

      There are US troops in Rojava. They apparently plan to stay there for a while.

      …the commander of the United States Central Command, Gen. Joseph L. Votel, said in an interview on Sunday [January 29th 2018] with CNN that the United States would not withdraw from Manbij.

      • adam 8.1.1

        And so what.

        The USA is not exactly a friend of the left, or working people.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          They are however, someone the Turks and/or their proxies cannot afford to attack, and I think the Rojavan administration is in a better position to assess who their allies are than you will ever be.

    • Ad 8.2

      The Kurds are going to have to be exceedingly skilful not to be crushed and their entire historical aspirations ended.

      They need a deal with Assad that enables regional autonomy while preserving the existing Syrian borders and state integrity. How to build a sandcastle under the waves.

      • Brigid 8.2.1

        All the Kurds need to do is eschew US funding and support.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Get ready to be disappointed.

          Alternatively, contact the Rojavan Executive Council and explain that you are in a much better position to assess their foreign policy than they are.

          From your keyboard, doing your “research” 🙄

          Edit: Oh, and before you start, I didn’t say shit about the merits of the USA. I support the Rojavan peoples’ right to make their own decisions though, which is more than you can say.

        • Psycho Milt

          All the Kurds need to do is eschew US funding and support.

          To achieve what? The ability for the Turks to give them a memorable lesson in why self-determination is not for the Kurds?

          • Brigid

            For fucks sake go and do some useful research and find out why.

            • One Anonymous Bloke


              Reading articles on the internet is not “research”.

              • Brigid

                You’ve discovered that yourself have you?
                Aren’t you just the clever one.

                • One Anonymous Bloke


                  Your words, not mine. I’ve never made the claim.

                  Have you heard back from the Rojavan Executive Council yet?

                  • Brigid

                    Who made such a claim then?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      You did, anonymous Brigid. More than once.

                    • Brigid

                      Idiot you are OAB.
                      You post a link that you claim supports what you say.

                      But it doesn’t

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      It’s too hot to be bothered about it.

                      The peoples of Rojava face an uncertain future, and have been at war for quite some time now. During that time, they’ve established democratic structures, held elections, and like their Kurdish counterparts in what used to be Northern Iraq, they’ve defended their territory.

                      I see from the Rojava Report that:

                      Last year a Monthly Mandatory Military Service Law went into effect which conscripted people between the ages of 21-30 for short periods.

                      However the Cizire canton has removed this provision and recognized the right of people to conscientious objection.

                      I like that. I think it’s worth defending.

            • Psycho Milt

              For fucks sake go and do some useful research and find out why.

              Oh, I get that if I “research” the writings of regime shills and alt-right tinfoil-hat wearers I’ll “learn” that the benevolent and democratically-elected leader of the Syrian people, Bashar al Assad, will be happy to discuss autonomy for the people of Rojava if they just end their relationship with the US and lay down their arms. I’m just not seeing any reason why people in Rojava should think that.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                The enemy of my enemy…

                Syria’s U.S.-backed Kurds are getting indirect help from an unlikely source in their war against Turkey in the northwestern region of Afrin: President Bashar al-Assad…

                While the Kurds depend on Assad to reach Afrin, Kurdish sources say they also enjoy leverage over Damascus because it needs their cooperation to source grain and oil from areas of the northeast under Kurdish control.

                Complex things, wars. Doesn’t make it a good idea for the people in Rojava to disarm, but.

              • Bill

                I can’t recall reading of any pro-Assad writer suggesting Assad would ever enter into dialogue with peoples of Rojava. (It’s Assad’s duty and responsibility to govern over all of Syria).

                I guess much the same would be a popular refrain in any nation state set-up. Look no further than Spain having conniptions over Catalonia for examples of that mind set.

                And right wing writers are apt to suggest that the autonomous regions are nothing but the result of some Zionist plot or that the peoples of Rojava are just Jihadists. (Likewise some Maoists)

                Then there are other writers and analysts who have taken the time and effort to at least try understanding the lay of the land.

                And there are also, of course, the spoon fed babbies regurgitating their feeds.

                But something “everyone” is in agreement with is that the military presence of both Turkey and the US has no standing in international law.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  “Cooperation to source grain and oil” isn’t ‘dialogue’, exactly, but it isn’t nothing either.

                  If we support the right of the peoples of Rojava – and anywhere else for that matter – to self-determination, surely that includes the right to self-defence, and therefore the right to form alliances.

                  It may be that they have made a Devil’s bargain and in time, will find the US military presence inconvenient or downright toxic. I wouldn’t rule that out. In the meantime the depredations listed in Esoteric Pineapple’s linked article might be averted.

                  It looks like international law will be put to the test:

                  Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan told his party’s parliamentary group meeting on Tuesday that they are ready to take the United States to court over Washington’s support for the Kurds. “We will take necessary steps during bilateral meetings and in international courts,” he said, according to state-run Anadolu Agency.

                  Perhaps international law is an ass too.

                  • Bill

                    If Turkey has a go at the US for supporting terrorism, which is what I’d guess the angle will be, then…hmm, wonder what court they’re talking about?

                    The ICC would be no use because the US doesn’t recognise that one and it has the power of veto over ICJ decisions.

                    I’m guessing Turkey has a fair amount of dirt on the US, but nowhere to sling it. And besides, whatever they have, (and I’m sure there’s plenty in relation to the wider environment of Syria) I can’t see them having anything when it comes to Rojava.

                    One possible good thing would be if the US removed the terrorist designation it has for the PKK anyway and the EU followed suit. That would leave Erdogan nothing to play with.

            • Ed

              He never does

    • Bill 8.3

      …it will also extinguish the only democratic, secular, feminist and ecologically aware political/military force in the region

      I’d suggest that should read “world”, not merely “region”.

  9. James 9

    Jane Kelsey on labour’s spin on the TPP


    Labour have sucked in some people who were against the original TPP.

    The text remains secret- but labour are doing it now, so it’s “all good” for some.

    • Stunned Mullet 9.1

      I disagree with Jane’s position on the benefit of trade agreements but give her full credit for not flip flopping on her position due to the change of government as so many seem to have done.

    • Molly 9.2

      Labour never protested the TPPA at the protests I attended. They did send a couple of speakers to the later hikois (- that also did not condemn or protest the TPPA in their speeches.)

      • james 9.2.1


        You must have been at a different protest.


        “Mr Nash was one of at least six Labour MPs who took part in nationwide marches on Saturday, as was Labour’s trade spokesman, David Parker, who spoke at the Dunedin rally. Others were Phil Twyford, Ruth Dyson, Megan Woods, and Clare Curran, while Jacinda Ardern apologised for her absence.”

        I think you will find that there was plenty of condemnation by labour of the TPP – of course that was before they had to govern and opps – all for it now.

        At least they released the text so it wasn’t secret, oops – no they didnt do that either.

        Im sure its all good – I was always happy with it being signed, so I think Labour are doing a good thing on this particular U-turn.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I think you will find that there was plenty of condemnation by labour of the TPP – of course that was before they had to govern and opps – all for it now.

          From what I could make out at the time they were all for it then as well. That’s what their bottom lines were – distraction from the fact that they would sign it while saying that their bottom lines had been met.

          Labour actually needs to start doing the job that they’re paid for – to start listening to the people and implementing the people’s wishes.

          It’s called democracy.

        • Molly

          Since you were probably at none of them. Labour MP’s might have been in attendance, but they were particularly careful not to condemn the treaty – just the process.

          At no point that I recall did the Labour Party come out against the TPPA. If you can link to an instance, I will stand corrected.

  10. Penny Bright 10

    “Another fresh new PM supporting the stale, old pro-corporate

  11. The Chairman 12

    Greens push another social issue

    A number keep telling me the Greens can walk and chew gum. So what are they currently doing to get more money for beneficiaries ?

    • The Chairman 12.1

      As people struggle to live, it seems James Shaw’s priority is knowing their sexual orientation.

      • savenz 12.1.1

        @The Chairman, Yes, out of touch, with the majority of people’s major concerns.

        • solkta

          Since when is it or was it the purpose of the Green Party to pander to “the majority of people’s major concerns”? If it was would the people involved not just join National and Labour? You really do say the stupidest things in regard the Greens.

          • weka

            Quite. Also, in this case it’s Shaw as Statistic Minister, and some people here seem to think he can use that position to do Green Party work.

            • One Anonymous Bloke


              I wonder at the inability of people to grasp that.

              • weka

                I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they were just using any chance to green bash. But it is possible they simply don’t understand how government works 🙁

          • The Chairman

            @ solkta

            Shaw made the commitment to carry on Metiria’s cause. But his focuses seems to be everywhere but. More and more, leaving that commitment looking disingenuous.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              The only person who looks disingenuous is you. Or perhaps you simply cannot grasp the usefulness of being the person who decides what else is going to be measured alongside the usual metrics.

              If I’m being charitable, I should assume that you simply lack the cognitive capacity, rather than that you are being malicious and dishonest.

              So I guess I’ll have to extend to you my deepest sympathies, as opposed to my middle finger.

      • alwyn 12.1.2

        They are probably trying to redo their gender selection rules.
        Their simple sex ones didn’t work out too well did they?
        Meant to be 50:50 female:male but it is currently 75:25.
        They may be going to introduce new rules so they can have a certain percentage who are gay, a percentage lesbian, another allocation transgender and so on.
        On the other hand the whole question doesn’t seem to be terribly relevant to anything important does it?
        I suppose James has to find something to talk about. All the real Green interests seem to have been foreclosed by King Winston.

        • Stuart Munro

          In fact they worked very well. The Greens lost a leader and two other MPs pre-election. If a similar sized party – NZF – had lost it’s leader at that time it would likely have disappeared without trace. Co-leaders smooth the transitions – a very sensible move.

      • McFlock 12.1.3

        Actually, it would be useful to know if there are systemic income and employment biases for sexual orientation and gender identity, as well as the current binary gender wage gap. And Shaw identifies healthcare needs as another example.

        I suspect that the Greens chose stats as one of their cabinet seats for this sort of situation: the government can’t systematically and effectively help people until those people are visible and reflected in government statistics.

        But thanks for your concern.

        • savenz

          Yes, that’s addressing the 100,000 missing Green voter’s concerns. sarc.

          How many need gender realignment surgery, it’s always been something that I put top of my list of big problems NZ faces. sarc.

          The only person I know who had the procedure went overseas to have it done and is probably a National supporter. But hey, it fills the Green’s time and clearly a VITAL statistic worth knowing about.

          • McFlock

            I’m sure someone’s transgender status is something they’re all eager to share with you. /sarc

            How do you know some aspect of NZers is not an issue before it’s been counted? Maybe it’s just being severely underserved by the government.

          • Carolyn_Nth

            Sexuality is not the same as gender identity. So you are adding a red herring into your continual Green Party bashing.

            • McFlock

              Well, in the article Shaw referred to both, and rightly so IMO.

              Stuff snipped the headline down to gender, but to be honest my niece had to correct me on that terminology a week or two back.

              • Carolyn_Nth

                Yes Shaw did mention gender identity, though it said he was asking for a question on sexuality in the census.

                Transgender, doesn’t necessarily mean having gender reassignment surgery either. There are diverse ways to be transgender.

                • McFlock


                  But given surgery was explicitly mentioned by Shaw, it’s a handy thing for snz to fixate on and avoid wider issues.

          • weka

            Interesting. You appear to be arguing that health services (and Stats NZ projects) should be prioritised based on size of population in need. Shall we assume that rare cancers should receive a lower priority because not that many people need that healthcare?

            If you want to argue that cancer is important because it can lead to death, please first go look at the stats on violence against and suicide by transgender people. Do some research on mental health issues due to transphobia.

        • weka

          Shaw has some pretty good reasoning for taking on Stats (he rates the portfolio highly in terms of being able to effect change over the long term).

        • The Chairman

          “Actually, it would be useful to know if there are systemic income and employment biases for sexual orientation and gender identity, as well as the current binary gender wage gap. And Shaw identifies healthcare needs as another example”.

          I wasn’t implying it wouldn’t be useful. The point was, if the Greens can walk and chew gum, where are their announcements about getting more money for beneficiaries?

          At the least, how they are going about working on it.

          “I suspect that the Greens chose stats as one of their cabinet seats for this sort of situation: the government can’t systematically and effectively help people until those people are visible and reflected in government statistics.”

          Yes, absolutely. And that not only applies to people but any issue really.

          However, are you implying the plight of beneficiaries isn’t already visible and reflected in government statistics?

      • weka 12.1.4

        “As people struggle to live, it seems James Shaw’s priority is knowing their sexual orientation.”

        I’m fairly confident that the government already collects data on people who are struggling to live (I assume you mean the ones who aren’t queer, as you seem ok with them not being counted).

        Shaw was speaking in his capacity as Statistics Minister. Perhaps you are arguing that Ministers should reprioritise their departments to focus on the things the Minister feels are important e.g. Shaw should be telling StatsNZ to reform welfare instead of counting things.

        Of course not only would that be a nonsense in terms of how to run a government, it’s also ignorant of Shaw’s own rationale’s for taking on that particular Ministerial role and why it is important for the issues that the Greens hold dear. I’ll leave you to go look that up*, but I’m thinking this was covered in a post about one of Shaw’s speeches.

        *although given your modus operandi of bashing Labour and the Greens without actually informing yourself about details of their policies and actions, I’m not holding my breath.

        • alwyn

          ” Shaw’s own rationale’s for taking on that particular Ministerial role “.
          Let me guess.
          Could it be it was the best of the rats and mice that Winston would let them choose from?
          After all, what else was he offered?

          • weka

            Of course you think that, you’ve been on TS for literally years slagging off the Greens routinely including a long period of telling lies about them. Why you would think that your reckons about the Greens have any merit, I don’t know.

            • alwyn

              Enlighten me then.
              What other Ministerial roles that actually had any real power were the Green Party offered.

        • The Chairman

          “I’m fairly confident that the government already collects data on people who are struggling to live (I assume you mean the ones who aren’t queer, as you seem ok with them not being counted)”.

          No. I was alluding to what Shaw seems to be prioritizing (collecting data) opposed to securing more money for beneficiaries.

          “Shaw was speaking in his capacity as Statistics Minister.”

          Yes, he was. However, you seem to be forgetting he is also party leader (they have yet to elect another co leader). Moreover, he made the commitment to carry on Metiria’s cause. Yet, I’m not seeing that.

          Therefore if Shaw is unable to keep that commitment, as party leader he needs to delegate and ensure others within the party are.

          Additionally, as Shaw made this commitment but is displaying little in keeping the commitment, every time he appears in the media on other matters it raises the question, what is he doing to keep that commitment as he seems to be focused elsewhere? Remember that James, if you’re reading.

          If the Greens are working on this issue, remember, communications is key.

          As for seeking to know people’s sexual orientation. I don’t know how many people will be comfortable with that, thus whether the information provided will be accurate, hence worthwhile.

          • weka

            You blatantly conflated the Greens with the Ministerial position,

            Greens push another social issue

            A number keep telling me the Greens can walk and chew gum. So what are they currently doing to get more money for beneficiaries ?

            Imo, you did that because you don’t give a shit about reality when it comes to your concern trolling.

            • The Chairman

              No, weka.

              Unless you’re implying Shaw (who holds a Ministerial position) is pushing an issue the Greens don’t support?

              I’m sharing a growing perception (anecdotal) the Greens are failing to keep the commitment their party leader made. And how their actions are failing to improve that perception.

              A number feel the issue has been put to the side with only platitudes and lip-service now being made. While their (the Greens) narrative in this area has largely aligned with Labour’s (ie child poverty). Leaving many (the childless or those with grown up children, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed) feeling abandoned.

              Genter becoming co-leader will reinforce this sentiment for some.

              Downplaying this and labeling it concern trolling doesn’t help improve anything.

              • McFlock

                Why on earth would anyone accuse you of concern trolling, when you present such overwhelming evidence of a growing perception of what “a number” feel, and share with us the serious issue that “some” of that “number” will find that sentiment “reinforced”?

                We must take this concern to the Greens right away! Something must be done to forestall the possibility that the growing feelings of some of a number might be reinforced, or else the government faces immediate doooooooooommm!!!

              • weka

                I’ve explained stuff to you about the Greens in the past. One thing I notice is that you don’t listen, so it doesn’t really matter what I or anyone says at this point, you have decided the Greens aren’t doing something you want, and that’s the line you will push.

                You also appear to do very little of your own research. I would hazard a guess that you have no idea what the Greens are doing on poverty currently. I’m also guessing that you have forgotten what’s in the actual deal with Labour.

                The Minister of Statistics can’t work on poverty issues outside of his portfolio. I can’t say it any plainer than that. If you want to ignore or remain ignorant of how government actually works that’s on you. But you are the one who said the Greens are working on sexual orientation issues, when in fact it was the Minister of Stats who is because that is his job.

                • McFlock

                  It’s worth noting that the issue isn’t unique to Shaw as minister – this link states that statsnz has been wrestling with how to collect gender and sexuality data since at least 2015.

                  Speaking as a bureaucrat, you’d almost need a full block of questions covering different aspects and to provide inferential classifications if that’s necessary for validation or low responses. But on the flipside I’d also just be tempted to bung some questions in there and leave them for thirty years or so before making a decision (I’m a low-achieving bureaucrat).

                  • weka

                    “It’s worth noting that the issue isn’t unique to Shaw as minister – this link states that statsnz has been wrestling with how to collect gender and sexuality data since at least 2015.”

                    Quite. And if TC bothered to look at what the Greens actually do rather than relying on whatever superficial source of information he uses about them, he would have known that. Shaw has talked about it himself.

                    I didn’t follow the technical sides of the debate about it 😉

          • Sacha

            Is “securing more money for beneficiaries” part of the agreement between the Greens and Labour?

            • The Chairman

              No, not exactly. But that doesn’t mean they can’t work with Labour and or NZF to do more.

              • Sacha

                It constrains what they can realistically achieve this term, wouldn’t you say?

                • The Chairman

                  To an extent. However, it doesn’t mean they should now just give up.
                  While it is more challenging, it just means they need to be more innovated. But we’ve yet to see that.

                  Here’s an example. The Greens wish to change our culture and we all know how much impact movies have had on shaping our culture.

                  Therefore, why not design a range of hard hitting ads that will give insight, build and muster public support for their causes. To date, the Greens have made a number of corny videos that get little to no traction, thus have minimal public impact.

  12. patricia bremner 13

    The count of the homeless also indicates there are possibly a bigger number who are not getting any sort of benefit, as they have no address.

    Counting and measuring seems to have been poor skills in the last administration.

    Oh, that’s right. “It is too hard”. “There is no crisis” “There is an 11 billion hole in that budget” …… Well Well!! We will need that much to begin to put it right.!!

    And James!! Before you even come on here to say it isn’t so…………..Feck off!!

  13. greywarshark 14

    Euthanasia is important to be thinking about in the run-up to submissions end 20/2/18.

    A woman stands trial now for giving assistance to a 77 year old who had decided to die.
    Ms Austen also faces two counts of importing the sedative pentobarbitone, which is a Class C controlled drug.
    In court, Crown laywer Kate Feltham said Ms Treadwell kept a detailed diary and wrote in it that she had spoken to Ms Austen about wanting to take her life and when.

    Police surveillance of Ms Austen also revealed the times she had purchased pentobarbitone, and given advice to Ms Treadwell about how to get it, Ms Feltham said.
    Ms Treadwell suffered depression and chronic pain from arthritis when she died in 2016, but not from a terminal illness.


  14. greywarshark 15

    Terry Pratchett’s thoughts on dying:
    In an article published mid-2009, Pratchett stated that he wished to die by assisted suicide (although he disliked that term) before his disease progressed to a critical point. He later said he felt “it should be possible for someone stricken with a serious and ultimately fatal illness to choose to die peacefully with medical help, rather than suffer.”

    Pratchett was selected to give the 2010 BBC Richard Dimbleby Lecture, entitled Shaking Hands With Death, broadcast on 1 February 2010. Pratchett introduced his lecture on the topic of assisted death, but the main text was read by his friend Tony Robinson because Pratchett’s condition made it difficult for him to read.In June 2011 Pratchett presented a one-off BBC television documentary, Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die, about assisted suicide. It won the Best Documentary award at the Scottish BAFTAs in November 2011.

    In September 2012 Pratchett stated: “I have to tell you that I thought I’d be a lot worse than this by now, and so did my specialist.” In the same interview, he stated that the cognitive part of his mind was “untouched” and his symptoms were physical (normal for PCA). However, in July 2014 he cancelled his appearance at the biennial International Discworld Convention, saying: “the Embuggerance is finally catching up with me, along with other age-related ailments”.
    Pratchett died at his home on the morning of 12 March 2015 from Alzheimer’s, according to his publisher. The Telegraph reported an unidentified source as saying that despite his previous discussion of assisted suicide, his death had been natural



  15. Another Food for Thought..lol..I posted this on yesterdays Open Mike umm today…durrr lol

    “It will be remembered that Lord John Russell’s feelings in favour of the Natives of New Zealand were very strongly and publicly expressed on the occasion of his dining with the Company in the City. The following short quotations, from documents issued from the Colonial Office, will shew what were his views with respect to the land.

    Mr Vernon Smith to Mr Somes
    Downing Street, December 2, 1840.

    With regards to all lands in the colony acquired under any other title than that of grants made in the name and on behalf of Her Majesty, it is proposed that the titles of the claimants should be subjected to the investigation of a Commission to be constituted for that purpose. The basis of that inquiry will be the assertion, on behalf of the Crown, of a title to all lands situate in New Zealand, which have, heretofore, been granted by the Chiefs of those islands, according to the customs of the country, and in return for some adequate consideration. Lord J. Russell is not aware that any exception can arise to this general principle; but if so, every such exception will be considered on its own merits, and dealt with accordingly.

    Lord Stanley’s sentiments, as expressed in the following passages of a letter written by his under Secretary, are quite in unison with those of Lord J. Russell, as respects the Native rights.

    Extract of a Letter from G.W. Hope, Esq., to J. Somes, Esq.
    1st February, 1843.

    In answer to these claims, Lord Stanley desires me to remind you, that he has offered, on the part of the Crown, as matter, not of right, but of grace and favour, to “instruct the Governor to make them a conditional grant, subject to prior titles to be established as bylaw provided, not only of such portion of the Wellington Settlement as is in the actual occupation of Settlers under them but also of all parts not in the occupation or possession of others; the extent of such grants, of course, not to exceed that to which they are entitled under Mr. Pennington’s award.”

    Further than this, Lord Stanley cannot consent to go, consistently with the obligations by which the Crown as he conceives, is bound. Lord Stanley is not prepared, as Her Majesty’s Secretary of State, to join with the Company in setting aside the Treaty of Waitangi after obtaining the advantages guaranteed by it, even though it might be made with “naked savages,” or though it might “be treated by lawyers as a praise-worthy device for amusing and pacifying savages for the moment.” Lord Stanley entertains a different view of the respect due to obligations contracted by the Crown of England; and his final answer to the demands of the Company must be, that, as long as he has the honour of serving the Crown he will not admit that any person, or any Government acting in the name of Her Majesty, can contract a legal moral, or honorary obligation to despoil others of their lawful and equitable rights.”
    (Smith & Elder, 1846, p61-63)
    The Committee Of The Aborigines’ Protection Society (1846). On The British Colonization of New Zealand. London, Smith and Elder.

    I apologize to Elizabeth II Queen of the United Kingdom for the use of the Crown as a attack against the NZ police Ka kite ano

  16. James 17

    Hahahaha this government is comedy gold.

    Charter school closures off the table. Chippy must be spewing.


    • McFlock 17.1

      That seems to be off the agenda for the press conference, not a policy flipflop

      • James 17.1.1

        I was reading (all be it from sources that I wound not trust 100% by any means) that there is a back track happening.

        Could be wrong – in which case it will be a chippy chippy 😉

        • McFlock

          It’s not, however, supported by your twitter link.

          One day you guys will get a genuine “backtrack” to crow about, though. No government is perfect.

          • james

            “One day you guys will get a genuine “backtrack” to crow about, though. No government is perfect.”

            TPP would be a good example no?

            • McFlock

              What, you mean the TPP that meets the criteria Labour raised prior to the election?

              Sure, we need the full text to be sure, but at this stage “backtrack” is an early call.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          If you were in the middle of sensitive negotiations would you be blabbing those negotiations all over the media?

          Also, the government’s position is that schools have a pathway for integration, which means the premise of “closure” is false.

          If that’s an example of their “logic” I wouldn’t trust your sources either.

        • Carolyn_Nth

          All because Hipkins was at Ardern’s press conference today, and didn’t mention charter schools – talked about public sector pay, as reported by the NZ Herald

          And Soper interpreted this as Hipkins feeling the heat on Charter Schools, so took it off the Agenda as a sidestep.

    • james 18.1

      Pfft – what would she know.

      Muttonbird told us on behalf of most Kiwi’s only yesterday that …

      “There’s 12 changes not including the foreign buyer ban. That’s significant, and what’s more has assuaged most Kiwi’s concerns.”


      So Kiwis are all good with it now.

      • james 18.1.1

        for the very few Kiwis not assuaged – please feel free to sign the petition at https://dontdoit.nz

        Obv – Im all for the tpp so I wont personally be signing it.

        • chris73

          Almost need a running meter to keep up with the policy back flips and changes 🙂

          • Muttonbird

            There’s been no back flips at all. This is a meme the opposition and their deranged and angry supporters are attempting to manufacture.

            • chris73

              Don’t get me wrong, I like that TPP is still going ahead (sorry CPTPP), that small business still have thje 90 day employment law and that charter school closures are being put on the back burner

              Might give them a chance to concentrate on planting trees and building houses

            • James

              So you know better than professor Jane?

              How about debunking some of the things she says as opposed to just saying it’s not so.

              • Muttonbird

                Your respect for the opinion of Jane Kelsey is somewhere around zero so I’m not quite sure why you’ve suddenly hopped on that particular bandwagon.

              • Ed

                You disagree with her.
                Why don’t you, you lazy shill.

                • weka

                  dial back the abuse please.

                  • Ed

                    Have you seen what I get every day – by comparison

                    • weka

                      I have told you before that if you are having problems you need to flag a moderator and do the work of linking to the specific comments that are concerning you.

                      Escalating nastiness will increase the chance of a ban.

                • mauī

                  Please Ed, just ignore him. I do not want to see you gone from this blog.

                  • Ed

                    Thank you maui.
                    It is hard.
                    Each time I make a comment about an issue that I feel passionate about, I just wait for James’s response.
                    His response does not add to the conversation.it is just having a go at me.

                    • weka

                      None of the comments James made in this sub thread were to you or about you. None of them were abusive to anyone here. So you coming in with abuse is just going to escalate any dynamic between you and James happening elsewhere.

                      Personally I agree with mauī. Ignore James, and focus on the people here who treat you well. Talk to them instead.

                      If James is harassing you, you can point it out to me, but *you have to do the work in that not expect me to go looking. e.g. link to three examples.

                    • mauī

                      Thank you Ed, I think he plays the flame game well. I will try and back you up when I see him sparking that so called bbq to life.

                    • Ed

                      Thank you maui.

  17. Ed 19

    How much do they pay you?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.1

      There’s money available for posting drivel? How much are you raking in?

      • weka 19.1.1

        I probably just saved you from a ban.

        • Ed

          Is it possible to look at the constant needling I receive from James?

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Thanks for the warning.

          • weka

            I’m only guessing, based on past bans.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Yeah, I’ve been trying not to let Ed’s…material get to me, but every now and then…

              Memo to self.

            • Monty

              Hey Weka. I love coming here and reading the views I try and refrain from commentating as I don’t believe as a kiwi living in Asia can comment on social issues within NZ currently. What I love about this site is the views both left and contrary. Some I agree with some I don’t. But that is the great thing about personal opinion we are entitled to our own view. I personally like your style of keeping stuff calm. Humans like OAB, RL, Mcflock and yourself I find to be required reading they challenge and are strong in their debating points. What cause me annoyance and please allow me to vent is that certain humans resort to a personal attack first due to disagreeing with that persons opinion and others when challenged start throwing out victim calls or labelling. This is one of the best paces to hear various views and see them challenged, explored and dissected. Please keep up the good work and accept that small rant as all that is was a simple piece of annoyance.

              • weka

                thanks Monty! I appreciate thoughtful feedback like that. It’s a an ongoing issue for the site, how to support the robust debate ethic and at the same time not let the comments slide into an abuse-fest. That we still get people commenting in ways that enhance debate, including for readers, is a good sign. Sometimes it slides towards the abuse cul de sacs, and there is always room for improvement.

              • Muttonbird


                If I was in a position to vote it would be for Judith. I can’t wait to see her rip apart and expose the deficiencies in cindy and the rest of the inept labour CoL caucas.
                Thumb up 26 Thumb down 3REPLY REPORTFEBRUARY 14, 2018 8:28AM

                I hope the Monty who posted this today (you know where) isn’t the same Monty who gets annoyed when commenters, “resort to a personal attack first due to disagreeing with that persons opinion and…when challenged start throwing out victim calls or labelling”.

  18. Ed 20

    An excellent documentary for those interested on Venezuela by al Jazeera.
    I found it very interesting and informative.
    It provided a good contrast to what we keep hearing about this country in the western corporate media.
    It shows how the oil industry attacked the socialist country.

    • Ed 20.1

      If you are interested in hearing an independent of view of events in this beautiful country.
      Abby Martin is a wonderful journalist.
      She visited the country, spoke to real people and found a different story to that peddled by Washington and its lackeys.

  19. Ed 21

    Another country destroyed by the lies of the US.

    Now Mattis Admits There Was No Evidence Assad Used Poison Gas On His People

    The U.S. has no evidence to confirm reports from aid groups and others that the Syrian government has used the deadly chemical sarin on its citizens, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said Friday.
    “We have other reports from the battlefield from people who claim it’s been used,” Mattis told reporters at the Pentagon. “We do not have evidence of it.”
    He said he was not rebutting the reports.
    “We’re looking for evidence of it, since clearly we are dealing with the Assad regime that has used denial and deceit to hide their outlaw actions,” Mattis said.
    Syrian President Bashar Assad denies his government has used chemical weapon.


    This backs up the work of Cockburn, Pilger, Bealey and Bartlett.
    There was a great meeting of independent media in Derry last week.
    Truth was spoken to power.
    It was organized by Derry resident Gregory Sharkey, the panelists addressed a wide range of issues.
    I found John Wight particularly inspiring.
    Here he is.
    In 15 minutes, you’ll learn more than by reading the Herald for the next 10 years.
    Bookmark and watch it when you get a chance.


  20. Ed 22

    Of course all these lies ( Iraq, Libya, Venezuela, Yemen, Afghanistan…..) could only happen because of the original lie, 9/11.

    Those lies don’t make sense unless you go back to the 11th September 2001.

    16 years later Thierry Meyssan’s 11 Septembre: ‘L’Effroyable imposture’ is as powerful as ever. Its English edition is entitled 9/11: The Big Lie.

    It went on France’s bestseller list in its second week and became the highest-grossing book in a single week in Europe ever.

    It is a brilliant book.

    • Ed 22.1

      Many of the dots were joined in this interview with General Wesley Clark, when he revealed that the wars of the 21st century were planned before 9/11.
      They just needed 9/11 to happen.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 22.2

      Ah yes, the “missile” chap, whose story was debunked by (among others) Popular Mechanics in 2006.

      He’d completely slipped my mind.

      • Ed 22.2.1

        You believe Popular Mechanics.
        That does explain a lot.

        Popular Mechanics ignored:

        well documented, numerous warnings from US allies that 9/11 was about to happen and warnings provided to a few not to fly or get out of the way
        the “plane into building” wargame in Virginia on 9/11 and the NORAD “live fly” exercises conducted on 9/11
        the fighter planes sent the wrong way from Norfolk (over the Atlantic, instead of toward DC). 9/11 was a cloudless day, and this scramble happened after the towers were hit (but before the Pentagon) – what’s their excuse?
        stock trades a few days before 9/11 betting the value of American and United Airlines would drop
        the fact that Flight 77 hit the nearly empty, recently reconstructed and strengthened sector of the Pentagon — something a terrorist would not have chosen (or been able) to do
        the anthrax attacks on the Democratic leadership in the Senate and on the media, which came from an Army lab, not Islamic terrorists

        And this article demolishes the other load of fallacies and flaws in the arguments of pm.


        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Please don’t move the goalposts: what did they get wrong about Thierry Meyssan’s story of the missile?

          Seriously Ed, if you’re going to put your trust in truthers, why pick a truther who gets shown up by people who would otherwise be writing stories about Jay Leno’s garage?

          And please, don’t take this as an invitation to post more truther stories: I’ve read them all. Years ago. They can’t agree among themselves.

          Why am I even responding to you? Ciao.

          • Ed


            Debate the topic.
            Don’t use name calling or pejorative language to frame an argument or create false premises.

            A lot of people question 9/11.
            They are not all truthers.

            Many people believe the propaganda pumped out by the deep state about foreign affairs. Shall I find some pejorative language for them?

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              I did debate the topic, Ed. You just failed to address the substantive argument.

              Why are you picking a questioner who gets shown up by people who would otherwise be writing stories about Jay Leno’s garage?

              Which of the multiplicity of their (the questioners) mutually contradictory stories are you backing?

              It’s a genuine question. I refuse to watch a video or read a link: I have read all of them already, years ago, and anything that can’t be written down after all this time is a waste of effort.

              In your own words, what is the alternative scenario you think most plausible of all the ones you’ve come across? One coherent narrative. That’s all I ask. Will you help me out here? Come on Ed, don’t move the goalposts, don’t accuse me of closed-mindedness again, just tell me in your own words.

              Please Ed. Will you? I’m hanging out here. Now’s your chance. In your own words mind. No sneaky cut ‘n’ pastes, ok?

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