Open mike 12/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 12th, 2019 - 244 comments
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244 comments on “Open mike 12/09/2019 ”

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  1. Pete George 1
    12 September 2019 at 7:16 am

    I think that a comment by weka deep in last night's Daily Review deserves more exposure.

    In order for more women to take complaints to the police, the culture needs to change. Not just in the police and justice system, but wider. This is why, while I understand what you are saying about the current situation and that Labour can't do anything via the Crimes Act or employment law, I disagree that they can't do anything.

    Had the processes and culture in Labour been different, it's possible that a formal complaint to either the police or parliamentary services may have followed. But to make a complaint when Labour are either making things harder from ignorance, or actively putting barriers in the way, that's too much to ask imo. Women know that going to the police is unlikely to do them good and will mostly likely harm them further, so there is a direct conflict between the wellbeing of victims and the wellbeing of society. That's not on women who have been assaulted to remedy. It's for everyone else to sort out.

    There is an argument to be made that rape cases should have their own set of rules because it is unlike pretty much any other crime in important regards. To get any change to process and outcome in the justice system you need lawmakers that understand the dynamics of rape and why it is done, and how systems are complicit in that. The one thing about this case that gives me some hope is that if Labour do step up now and sort their culture out internally, there is potential for them to then foster good lawmakers in the future.

    I haven't followed the story this week very closely, but it's clear that the allegations were handled badly. Not because Labour should have fired the staffer or whatever, but because they should have listened to and engaged with the people making the complaints in a way that protected them and gave them support so that a way to deal with the situation could have been worked out. Even the fact that Labour met with one of the victims on her own is a red flag for me. At the least someone should have been there and written up the meeting and made sure that copies were given to Labour and victim. That's just basic stuff.

    Likewise the whole mess with the emails.

    My advice to anyone engaging with any organisation that has power like this is to always take a witness to any conversation, preferably one that can take good notes. Hopefully now processes will develop/be adopted for getting confirmation that emails have been received (and that Labour will do this with regard for people making complaints, not just setting up systems to protect themselves).

    The onus shouldn't be on the people making the complaint but on the organisation with the resources. That Labour didn't do these things suggests either incompetence or worse. I suspect its incompetence (esp given what Ardern has said), but I think it's also likely there has been some protection of Labour going on by some of the people involved.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-11-09-2019/#comment-1654003

    Very well expressed.

    • A 1.1
      12 September 2019 at 7:36 am

      Wise words. Thanks for reposting.

      • AB 1.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 11:03 am

        Yep – and I would add, that things are way more likely to get f**ked up in the way Weka describes in a politicised environment where your opponent is going to disguise their political opportunism as concern for the victims.

        Parliament probably needs an independent body to handle these things from the get-go. Mainly in order to get better outcomes for the victims, but also to take grubby, bad-faith operators like Bennett out of the picture permanently. Bennett is a stain on the body politic.

    • OnceWasTim 1.2
      12 September 2019 at 7:39 am

      Not sure if you've just seen "the PB" and "the Shane on TV1 Breakfast @Mr PG, but I agree with the Shane to a degree in that victims should be able to go to the Police (not just in sexual abuse cases, but in anything to do with criminality)

      As a former employee of a Munstry, I tried doing that. I was INSTRUCTED (in no uncertain terms) not to do so. Instead, that Munstry called in a private investigator (as it happens, an ex-policeman) to investigate and determine whether or not Police should be called. And then, as it happens, those giving such instructions went on to a stellar career in places such as Queensland Health – where, as we know, several bloody big fleecings went on.

      This whole sorry bloody episode epitomises all that's gone wrong in our public service. As I said yesterday – Jacinda needs to get out her Mark Richardson Index Finger and STOP putting a blind faith in many of her 'officials". Many of her enemas are staring her in the face.

      As it happens, I suspect one of the regular commenters here (Anne) has had similar experiences.

      • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 9:32 am

        " That Labour didn't do these things suggests either incompetence or worse. I suspect its incompetence "

        This goes to the heart of conversations (sort of) I have had many times on this forum, where my stance goes something like..it would be great a see a real progressive Left wing party in NZ run a campaign based only upon it's moral and high grounded principles, regardless of the perceived fallout..the argument that is always and without doubt fired back at me goes something like this…what matters is winning, first and foremost, you can't get anything done if not in power.

        Now on the surface any reasonable person can understand their argument, on the surface it makes complete sense. But what these defenders of the power above all approach to politics don't understand is that by allowing your political project to let it's moral and ethical values take second place to get into power ar any stage, you will in have effect embedded that order of importance (power above moral's and ethics) into the structural frame work of your parties very core.

        So hence I don't for a moment believe it was incompetence, it was IMO Labour representatives doing what was and is expected of them from a political party that bases much of its campaigning and policy on perceived public (middle class) reaction.

        • greywarshark 1.2.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 11:15 am

          This is a 7 min discussion from two well-known commentators about the matter of the sexual misconduct from Radionz this morning. I thought it was reasoned. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018712922/labour-s-handling-of-complaints-not-good-enough-commentators

          Political commentators Jess Berentson-Shaw and Morgan Godfery discuss the unfolding saga of Labour's handling of complaints from staff, including an allegation of serious sexual assault.

          • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 11:50 am

            Hi, I haven't got speakers on my work computer, but will give that a listen when I get home, thanks.

            • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 12:00 pm

              I'd be interested in your opinion Adrian as to whether you thought they spoke well and soundly!

        • OnceWasTim 1.2.1.2
          12 September 2019 at 1:13 pm

          Exactery @Adrian

          What I also think is happening is that 'officialdom' at senior level, or at least among the long-term lags, haven't yet realised things have changed quite a bit among the voting public. Even given the yea/nah psyche of lil 'ole NuZull's public – people are now bloody sick of all the buzzwords and bullshit, and the "that's an operational matter I can't comment on" (until it suits me) shit.

          H1 and H2's pragmatism, incrementalism and managerialism just doesn't wash anymore. People are bloody tired of it all and there's a new breed in town.

          Jacina really should surround herself with a different set of people or she'll be burned again (just as some of her cabinet ministers have been).

          Openness and honesty (as me dear ole mum used to say) is the best policy

          • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.2.1
            12 September 2019 at 1:52 pm

            @OncewasTim, yeah I agree, except that unfortunately JA is herself a Liberal (with a good I am sure) so can't really operate outside of her stated political ideology, even if her instincts occasionally tell one thing (probably the right thing), either her said ideology or the party or a combination of the two will drag her back to the Liberal Free Market, Capitalist path the party has entrenched itself in..like a train on a railroad..only one ultimate direction when all is said and done.

          • gsays 1.2.1.2.2
            12 September 2019 at 3:55 pm

            In the RNZ discussion Grey linked to, Godfrey opined that the 'flies in the ointment' (my phrasing), were folk of a certain colour, sex and age.

            This handling of the complaints by Labour, reeks of business as usual. In that, it seems to be 'this is how we've done it in the past,' National did it too.

            Unfortunately, despite high hopes for this regime (kindness and Peter's references to ending the neo liberal experiment), I realise it is the same old stuff- dont scare the horses, worship at the altar of the 'economy'.

            • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.2.2.1
              12 September 2019 at 5:25 pm

              " I realise it is the same old stuff- dont scare the horses, worship at the altar of the 'economy'."

              Yep that about sums it up, just like Helen Clarke's time, in effect National light would be a pretty descriptive of both these Labour terms in office, and if JA doesn't watch herself she could well turn out to be a one hit wonder.

              I personally gauge Labour locally by how many workers turn up when the leaders stump here…just a handful in the town hall in 2017, that to me says all that needs to be said, especially since I live in a region where the main industry (orchard) has been screwing workers hard for 20 years, but they see no answers in Labour NZ..shame on them.

    • Adrian Thornton 2.1
      12 September 2019 at 9:33 am

      Sanders 2020..the real deal.

      • AB 2.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 11:16 am

        As Biden's cognitive and policy shortcomings get exposed, the establishment Dems will jump over to Warren. She is the last port of call for the "Anyone but Bernie" death ship.

        • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 11:25 am

          @AB Exactly right, and here is something I can guarantee you won't hear from Warren…"If there is going to be class warfare in this country, it's time that the working class of this country won that war.", Bernie Sanders, August 21- 2019.

          https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/08/21/after-decades-corporate-decimation-unions-sanders-says-it-time-workers-win-class-war

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuobqggENo4

          • Andre 2.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 5:41 pm

            Did he take the opportunity to do a bit of fundraising by selling Che berets after a line like that?

            • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.1.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 5:52 pm

              Yeh, I know defending and proudly standing for workers rights, conditions and wages is a foreign and scary idea to you free market liberals..but hey someone gotta do it…and it sure as hell ain't the dems or Labour NZ for that matter.

                • Adrian Thornton …
                  12 September 2019 at 6:49 pm

                  Don't think actual workers like those at Amazon, Wall Mart ( the largest single employers in the USA) or Disney would agree with you there Andre.

                  BTW nice to see you using unbiased sources..Edward-Isaac Dovere..

                  "Sanders had big ideas but little impact on Capitol Hill"

                  "Bernie Sanders Just Hired His Twitter Attack Dog"

                  "As Sanders Leans Into Socialism, His Rivals Laugh"

                  I could go on with Dovere's unrelenting attacks on Sanders, but I am sure you and anyone reading this will get the point.

                  Mate you gotta stop being sucked in by the man.

                  Corporate Media Bias Against Sanders Is Structural, Not a Conspiracy

                  https://therealnews.com/stories/corporate-media-bias-against-sanders-is-structural-not-a-conspiracy
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss7tjLZKdMQ

                  • Andre …
                    12 September 2019 at 6:53 pm

                    Gee, still whining that the media isn't giving your idol uncritical adulation? Wonder who else does that?

                    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/11/joe-biden-media-2020-1488835

                    • Chris T …
                      12 September 2019 at 7:07 pm

                      Lol

                      (there was no reply link in you other post)

                    • Adrian Thornton …
                      12 September 2019 at 7:14 pm

                      Any half cognitive person can see Biden is obviously suffering from some sort of age related degeneration, he very obviously isn't making 'gaffs'. , it is something far more serious. So I don't know why you brought him into this, he will never make it all the way to the primaries, hence the swing of the establishment liberals to Warren, but then you seem to be establishment liberal personified so I guess that all makes perfect sense to you…anyone but Bernie for you I bet.

                      However even with that being said, if you can't see the out in the open bias against Sanders from the Liberal media, well then you are in deeper than I thought, so probably beyond reasoning with.

                  • Chris T …
                    12 September 2019 at 6:57 pm

                    That will work out well.

                    A president who turns 80 in the first year of his reign.

                    It was bad enough when big Ron started losing it.

                  • AB …
                    12 September 2019 at 10:27 pm

                    Even if Sanders were to become president (I don't think he will, or will be allowed to) then Andre has a point. It seems likely that a fair chunk of establishment democrats in Congress would vote against his programme anyway. He would be left with whatever he can do by executive order and whatever other options the president has.

                    It's not my country (I understand it is Andre's) so perhaps I have no right to comment. But I expect in 20 years time (if I am still alive) to look back at the Sanders candidacy as a lost opportunity of historic proportions. His legacy may be that he briefly shoved the Overton window two clicks to the left before we all got swallowed up in the fascist darkness to come.

                    • Adrian Thornton …
                      12 September 2019 at 10:43 pm

                      It is going to be one of the most interesting US elections in our lifetime that's for sure, Sanders message is so strong and carries so much weight that as we can see he has already shifted the whole narrative of Democratic primary race more than a couple of clicks to the Left.

                      I think we have every right to comment on US politics, as there is no question that what happens there either through their foreign policy decisions and even to a lesser extent some of their domestic policies end up directly or indirectly effecting not just us but most of the world, so we all have skin in the game, so to speak.

                    • greywarshark …
                      13 September 2019 at 11:57 am

                      AB You do have the right to comment on the USA and their politics. That country infects the whole world with their viruses, and blankets the world in its propaganda with PR being its main employment opportunity. We hear more about it on our media, and know more up to date and historical info about it than, I am sure, a majority of their citizens. They sneeze there, and we get the chills so comment away and help us understand the latest drop from their pigeon post.

  3. Sacha 3
    12 September 2019 at 7:27 am

    The recent memoirs of two leading old men of Pakeha official cultural history are considered by a woman who knew both of them all too well. Shines a light on NZ's attitudes about gender. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/09/11/783867/scenes-from-a-marriage-a-personal-feminist-essay-by-an-ex-wife

    Both autobiographies run headlong into a divide between inclusive, publicly-held values regarding women, and the peripheral position actually granted to women in private.

    [Jock] Phillips thanks two women who saved his letters. His correspondence makes it possible for him to tell his story with such precision. Tellingly, though, he didn't preserve their replies. They were simply less important to him than he was to them.

    • greywarshark 3.1
      13 September 2019 at 12:37 pm

      That was very interesting. I had been thinking recently about Phillips book on the immense change for men required from action-outdoors people to indoors office people – he mentioned clerks I think.

      It could be that this way of understanding NZ men's attitudes could bring about better ways of connecting with those young men police are chasing in cars and inciting them to risky behaviour in trying to escape authority. Both are fuelled by their masculine natures perhaps. It may not be entirely true, but would give a viewpoint that would be more than just repeating the obvious about the young dead, 'They should stop when ordered.'

      Scientists were taken to task last century for fooling themselves that their thinking was devoid of bias, and I think Margaret Mead was forward in that thrust. And it is correct for us all to understand we have our own biases even if we do try to remain objective. There is always another side, and I have learned to flip things over, and think what position the dissenter to me would be coming from.

      Phillida mentions the triangle. And that is a concept derived from psychology and another way of understanding complex and changing points of view.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle The drama triangle is a social model of human interaction – the triangle maps a type of destructive interaction that can occur between people in conflict. The drama triangle model is a tool used in psychotherapy, specifically transactional analysis.

      Transactional analysis could save us from much grief if it was taught from an early age, actually from about age 8 which many think to be the start of focussed learning of one's personhood.

  4. Sacha 4
    12 September 2019 at 7:35 am

    At last. NZ history compulsory in schools. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/398599/new-zealand-history-will-be-compulsory-in-all-schools-by-2022

    – The arrival of Māori to Aotearoa New Zealand
    – First encounters and early colonial history of Aotearoa New Zealand
    – Te Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi and its history
    – Colonisation of, and immigration to, Aotearoa New Zealand, including the New Zealand Wars.
    – Evolving national identity of Aotearoa New Zealand in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries
    – Aotearoa New Zealand’s role in the Pacific
    – Aotearoa New Zealand in the late 20th century and evolution of a national identity with cultural plurality.

    • Sanctuary 4.1
      12 September 2019 at 7:41 am

      Let's play word bingo for Simon Bridges over this!

      • Sacha 4.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 7:53 am

        Is Aotearoa an everyday word?

        • Sanctuary 4.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 8:10 am

          Everyday New Zealanders don't care about the Land Wars!

          • Sacha 4.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 8:23 am

            Gate Pa was just the old guy who guarded the door at the RSA.

            • Sanctuary 4.1.1.1.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 8:38 am

              Measles, not Maoris!

              • greywarshark …
                12 September 2019 at 10:50 am

                NZ history in schools by 2022. There is a great amount of information and detail from when it was taught, how come it can't be by 2021. One whole year to get it set up and running seems adequate. Obviously it can't be by next year, too short a time. Get it going, and do it on recycled paper, even run it out of gestetner machines if necessary – that would be historic. We don't need glossy paper, and specially produced art work commissioned from some PR agency. Just the exciting tale of the little country that could have, but often didn't, and yet had aspirations and achievements of all sorts. Let the spirit of the country show up – the high times, the low and even despicable times, and the attempt to rise and succeed as a country with a healthy and fair outlook, capable, busy, enterprising, doing good things well.

                And give a contract to moderates on the Maori side to present the story from a Maori perspective. They can ensure that everyone knows just what happened, the good, the bad and the ugly and how we still are working to integrate and foster the different cultures where appropriate. And what an interesting and fruitful journey it is.

          • AB 4.1.1.1.2
            12 September 2019 at 10:57 am

            Everday NZers don't study history at school. They do bizniss studies and join the National Party at 19 already owning 3 rentals in provincial cities.

            • greywarshark 4.1.1.1.2.1
              13 September 2019 at 12:43 pm

              Lol

            • mac1 4.1.1.1.2.2
              13 September 2019 at 1:18 pm

              And live in large houses with garaging for three and a pad for the boat and the motor home on a tiny section with no vegetables and die knowing nothing of art, music or literature.

              In the living room which have huge walls of glass there is a picture of a young Spanish woman and a faux French faux antique clock. There are no book shelves because there are no books, no musical instruments, only a 54" TV shrine on the end wall. Outside the BBQ stands shrouded, surrounded by plastic cane furniture.

              I often wonder what James K Baxter would have written of in a modern-day "​​​Ballad of Calvary Street". Probably much the same but without the Sacred Heart on the kitchen wall nor the coal range below it.

              https://lead.org.au/lanv1n2/lanv1n2-11.html

    • Chris T 4.2
      12 September 2019 at 7:47 am

      I think Labour are getting a bit laughably desperate in trying to divert attention from their current issues with this given the timing, but I think the actual topic in schools is a good idea

      • Sacha 4.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 7:57 am

        Anything they do right now will be seen as a diversion. I am stoked to see this announcement regardless.

      • Incognito 4.2.2
        12 September 2019 at 7:59 am

        Obviously, the Government (not Labour) needs to drop everything else and give its undivided attention to one single topic/issue. Anything else will be considered a deliberate distraction [sarc].

        The way I read your comment is as a laughably desperate attempt to keep the focus on the same story and prevent people from diverting their attention elsewhere.

        • Sacha 4.2.2.1
          12 September 2019 at 8:02 am

          Some find it hard to imagine walking and chewing gum at the same time. 🙂

        • Chris T 4.2.2.2
          12 September 2019 at 8:21 am

          Yes because it is normal to drop new policy first thing on a Thursday morning.

          It works like this

          Good announcements start of the week to get as much attention and talking as poss.

          Bad announcements at the end of the week, hoping the weekend cools it off. Preferably Friday late afternoon, so can’t make 6 pm news

          Really really controversial announcements, stall till parliament is in recess and you don’t need to answer any questions about it. Hence Ardern saying the new QC inquiry over the alleged assaults will results will be 3 to 4 weeks.

          Kind of PR 101

          • Peter 4.2.2.2.1
            12 September 2019 at 1:03 pm

            Let's call every day of the week Monday. Any new policy will be important because it is released on Monday, every press release about anything will be important because it is released on Monday and any report from some inquiry coming out will be important because it is released on Monday.

            PR 101, PR 10, call it what you like, but PR10anything is that people who have to work in shops and other places in weekends go to work on Saturdays and Sundays. Reporters and other media people don't want to work weekends so want everything to be dished up for their new week on Mondays.

            How about only having serious vehicle crashes, terrible crimes and other noteworthy events only on Mondays too?

      • Sanctuary 4.2.3
        12 September 2019 at 8:17 am

        Actually I was thinking about this this morning. The problem for the unrelentingly anti-Labour MSM opinion piece writers is that they are, well, unrelentingly anti_Labour. The fact that Hosking, Soper, Richardson, Young and all the rest are having another anti-Jacinda rant is simply noise for most people – different day, same shit from the usual suspects. You either love the Hosk and nod along to everything Soper says or you think they are complete fucking idiots.

        Sure, twitter is ablaze with indignation but no one gives a f**k what people say there.

        The chattering classes will obsess over the details of organisational process, but the general public is utterly indifferent to this sort of "scandal".

        • greywarshark 4.2.3.1
          13 September 2019 at 1:04 pm

          Let's set a new standard for every story – to show balance within the story. So that the anti-whoever rant has to also state something positive that has been achieved or said. The pros and cons thing of ancient Greece or wherever? Should all broadcasters be required to have at least a diploma in critical thinking and the thinking of the savants of various countries?

          Should the media opinion-maker regard him or herself as a sort of teacher? Which they appear to do as they give out their opinion based on some knowledge. This is a serious thought, not just some smarmy answer. Wouldn’t one think that by this stage of education and civilisation we should have better to listen to and absorb than what we hear from RW media now, and would hear from LW media too if it was able to really get going and churn out some of the wild stuff around.

          Like pros and cons:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pro_and_con_lists

          https://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/classroom-resources/should-educators-use-the-socratic-method-of-teaching/

          And reasoning – Plato.

          “Mankind must have laws, and conform to them, or their life would be as bad as that of the most savage beast. And the reason of this is that no man’s nature is able to know what is best for human society; or knowing, always able and willing to do what is best.

          In the first place, there is a difficulty in apprehending that the true art of politics is concerned, not with private but with public good (for public good binds together states, but private only distracts them); and that both the public and private good as well of individuals as of states is greater when the state and not the individual is first considered.

          In the second place, although a person knows in the abstract that this is true, yet if he be possessed of absolute and irresponsible power, he will never remain firm in his principles or persist in regarding the public good as primary in the state, and the private good as secondary.

          Human nature will be always drawing him into avarice and selfishness, avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure without any reason, and will bring these to the front, obscuring the juster and better; and so working darkness in his soul will at last fill with evils both him and the whole city.

          For if a man were born so divinely gifted that he could naturally apprehend the truth, he would have no need of laws to rule over him; for there is no law or order which is above knowledge, nor can mind, without impiety, be deemed the subject or slave of any man, but rather the lord of all.

          I speak of mind, true and free, and in harmony with nature. But then there is no such mind anywhere, or at least not much; and therefore we must choose law and order, which are second best. These look at things as they exist for the most part only, and are unable to survey the whole of them. And therefore I have spoken as I have.” – Plato

    • vto 4.3
      12 September 2019 at 9:46 am

      It will be fascinating to see what history is taught, and what isn't… being so intensely political as it is…

      Some history just doesn't want to be acknowledged by some …

      never has been …

      anywhere

    • marty mars 4.4
      12 September 2019 at 10:15 am

      I think it is worth understanding that this is NEW ZEALAND history not Māori history. The reason NZ history hasn't been taught imo is that colonisation is pretended not to have happened – often this runs along – we saved them, we educated them, we stopped them doing horrible things, we gave them god and jesus, we taught them english and how lucky they are that it was us not the french or whatevers that colonised them

      Māori know what happened – there is no big secret around it.

      Maybe like this is the way

      Some Māori are calling for a boycott of this year's commemoration of James Cook's landing in New Zealand 250 years ago. The $20 million commemorations, Tuia Encounters 250, are planned for October to December.

      Indigenous rights advocate Tina Ngata said Cook's landing should not be celebrated.

      "When somebody lands and then shoots the first person that they see and then the next day shoots another 15 and then wants to get a closer look at a waka, so they shoot everybody in the waka … and everybody in the waka was unarmed – they were just fisherpeople. To call that an encounter is egregious in the extreme," Ms Ngata said.

      Māori were still "labouring under the historical and enduring rights violations" resulting from Cook's landing and the colonisation of Aotearoa, she said.

      Ms Ngata has raised her concerns about the commemorations with the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues in New York.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/389081/captain-cook-250-year-commemoration-to-tell-maori-side-of-history-minister-kelvin-davis

      • weka 4.4.1
        12 September 2019 at 10:24 am

        NZ not Māori history because Māori weren't involved in the design of the curriculum?

        • marty mars 4.4.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 10:33 am

          I'm not an educator but I'd say that played a big part.

          The effects are disturbing

          People with "negative" views on Māori issues like Treaty settlements and Ihumātao are the victims of an education system that fails to teach New Zealand history, it's been claimed.

          Graeme Ball, head of social sciences at Northcote College and chair of the NZ History Teachers Association (NZHTA) is at Parliament this week, presenting the case for it to be compulsory. Concern that it isn't is nearly historic itself.

          …"People who have particular views on issues around the treaty or Ihumātao – whatever it might be – that are a bit negative, they're perfectly understandable, those views, because they're based on ignorance. It's not their fault."

          …"I've not yet heard anyone who goes, 'this is actually fairly normal'," said Mr Ball. "It's abnormal. We seem to be the only country that I'm aware of in the OECD that doesn't teach its own history."

          https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/lack-of-nz-history-teaching-behind-negative-views-on-m-ori-issues-teacher.html

      • Gosman 4.4.2
        12 September 2019 at 1:22 pm

        Cook did not colonise NZ. He did not even start the colonisation process off. His interest was more on exploration than colonisation. The British Empire did not include NZ after Cook visited.

        • marty mars 4.4.2.1
          12 September 2019 at 1:39 pm

          so he had nothing to do with the western discovery of NZ and subsequent colonisation based upon his journeys – we need more history in our schools that's for sure although I'm not sure you did much schooling here anyway eh gossie

          • Pete George 4.4.2.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 1:43 pm

            A history lesson.

            Abel Tasman is officially recognised as the first European to ‘discover’ New Zealand in 1642.

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/people/abel-tasman

          • Gosman 4.4.2.1.2
            12 September 2019 at 1:46 pm

            Tasman discovered NZ from a Western European perspective in 1642. Are you blaming him for colonisation too?

            • marty mars 4.4.2.1.2.1
              12 September 2019 at 1:50 pm

              so you think cook is irrelevant to the colonisation of NZ – go to school fool

              • Gosman …
                12 September 2019 at 2:51 pm

                Yes, I am stating Cook is largely irrelevant to the colonisation of NZ. He did have an impact on the colonisation of Australia though.

            • Incognito 4.4.2.1.2.2
              12 September 2019 at 2:25 pm

              Actually, Ab is responsible for all those damn Friesians here and those bloody Dutch who ruin run Fonterra and the liberal attitudes to drug use straight from Amsterdam. Ab has got a lot to answer for as does Douglas for that matter.

          • Gosman 4.4.2.1.3
            12 September 2019 at 1:49 pm

            Whether or not Cook mapped NZ or not is irrelevant to whether NZ was colonised by the British. Cook mapped lot's of places that weren't subsequently colonised by the British and also lot's of places were mapped by people that were not British that were eventually colonised by them.

            • marty mars 4.4.2.1.3.1
              12 September 2019 at 1:51 pm

              read a bit about the purpose of cooks voyages idiot before you make an even bigger fool of yourself than normal

              • vto …
                12 September 2019 at 2:15 pm

                One of the historic realities is that the British Crown had no interest in NZ and didn't want to know about it after Cook's visits. It wasn't considered attractive at all for colonisation and was not sought. Not at all.

                Of course the gloves came off later, such are the ways of the devious and unscrupulous horrid British Crown, who have slayed several ancestral branches of my own whanau, in different parts of the globe.

                History also notes that British contact was highly sought after by many Maori as well.

                It is mixed up and not so linear mm, you should know these things.

                • marty mars …
                  12 September 2019 at 2:51 pm

                  lol – is that what they taught you at school mr there is no racism in nz? idiotic

                  • Gosman …
                    12 September 2019 at 2:54 pm

                    Face facts marty, your ideas about Cook aren't mainstream. You are very much in the minority here. It was over 60 years after Cook mapped NZ that NZ was eventually colonised.

                  • vto …
                    12 September 2019 at 3:02 pm

                    lol yeah nah sneer sneer

                    so fucking tedious you are

                    • marty mars …
                      12 September 2019 at 3:13 pm

                      truth hurts – sorry you struggle so much

                    • vto …
                      12 September 2019 at 3:18 pm

                      there is no truth in what you have said in this thread

                      you're just an angry ageing male, thrashing around sneering at everyone…

                      bleeaaargh ….

                      go learn some history

                    • marty mars …
                      12 September 2019 at 3:32 pm

                      lol for a human you are shit at making connections wee man – I count at least 3 fails on this forum alone AND all on completely different subjects. sad.

                • joe90 …
                  12 September 2019 at 3:01 pm

                  One of the historic realities is that the British Crown had no interest in NZ and didn't want to know about it after Cook's visits.

                  The Admiralty tasked Cook with searching for and taking possession of lands in the South Pacific.

              • Gosman …
                12 September 2019 at 2:52 pm

                It looks like you are coming across as the fool Marty as so far other people support my view not yours on the influence of Cook on colonisation of NZ.

                • marty mars …
                  12 September 2019 at 3:12 pm

                  lol yeah to a right wing troll like you I'm sure. "It looks like etc…" is real evidence.

                • McFlock …
                  12 September 2019 at 3:48 pm

                  Personally, I think Marty is reasonably accurate.

                  At the time, the purposes of discovery expeditions were to advance the nation's power through resource extraction or trade. Colonisation is part of the former, and frequently part of the latter.

                  To say that exploration has nothing to do with colonialism is like saying that Roman road engineers had nothing to do with imperialism.

                  • Gosman …
                    12 September 2019 at 3:54 pm

                    The British empire was largely built on trade not conquest. The British empire was quite small on a geographical scale until the later half of the 19th Century. It was certainly much much smaller in 1769. If you want to establish new trading routes you need to invest the time in exploration

                    • McFlock …
                      12 September 2019 at 4:04 pm

                      🙄

                      Trade like taking over North America, parts of India, Gibraltar, the Caribbean…

                      The British Empire was already global by the rime of Cook. Much of the reason it increased in size in the 18th and 19th centuries was exploration by Cook and his colleagues.

                    • marty mars …
                      12 September 2019 at 4:05 pm

                      yes so what McFlock said is correct and you have been arguing rubbish just for the sake of it

                      hats off to you you bastard you got me

                    • Gosman …
                      12 September 2019 at 4:22 pm

                      The British empire in Indian and much of Asia was under the sovereign control of the East India company. In 1769 this was restricted to mainly Bengal and a number of enclaves on the Indian coast line such as Bombay and Madras. Singapore was set up until 1819 and Hong Kong not until around the time NZ was founded.

                      The British empire in North America and the Caribbean was controlled by the Crown directly it is true however the 13 Colonies were tiny compared to the Portuguese, Spanish and even French presence in the Americas (at least until the British defeated the French and took Canada).

                      The reason the British established naval bases like Gibraltar was to control trading routes not land and people.

                      Where the British empire increased in size dramatically in the 19th Century was not really in the areas that exploration took place in the 18th Century. It was more in places where the British had a presence already such as Canada and India or in places where the British had not really explored much by the start of the 19th Century such as Africa.

                      The only really large area of land taken by the British as part of the exploration done by people like Cook was Australia. There was also some small islands and naval stations around the World. These were rather inconsequential overall. However NZ was not one of them.

                    • McFlock …
                      12 September 2019 at 4:30 pm

                      So it was global, and the trading routes were as important to England as roads were to Rome. Would that be accurate?

                    • Gosman …
                      12 September 2019 at 4:35 pm

                      Trading routes were important to the British for TRADE especially sea routes. Hence why they established naval trading stations in most places and why they eventually took over the Cape (but not the interior) of Southern Africa during the Napoleonic wars. actual colonisation for colonisation purposes was less of an interest to the government of the UK. This is why colonisation societies were largely private affairs (although receiving some official sanction).

                    • McFlock …
                      12 September 2019 at 5:06 pm

                      "Trade" on British terms was colonisation: British people occupying and securing British settlements in the areas they want to "trade" with, and occupying greater amounts of territory when the locals had a problem with that.

                      Exploration was an integral part of that model.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 September 2019 at 9:21 am

                      Quite wrong. British settlement in the major areas they traded with was much less common. There wasn't huge settlement in either China or India for example. There was more British settlement in places like Argentina than in much of the British empire in Africa or in China.

                    • McFlock …
                      13 September 2019 at 1:23 pm

                      If I was "quite wrong", you wouldn't have had to insert the word "huge" into what you were trying to correct me on, you disingenuous fuck.

                • Incognito …
                  12 September 2019 at 5:17 pm

                  I’ve never before seen you as a populist but there it is, in full view.

        • marty mars 4.4.2.2
          12 September 2019 at 3:38 pm

          I've just reread this whole shit thread – no one said cook colonised NZ so you just set your straw man up from the get go and then vto and pete piled in. This is some dishonest posting from you goosee – you should be ashamed imo.

          The quote from the post I did was

          "Māori were still "labouring under the historical and enduring rights violations" resulting from Cook's landing and the colonisation of Aotearoa, she said."

          notice the AND goose

          • Gosman 4.4.2.2.1
            12 September 2019 at 4:30 pm

            What was the "enduring rights violations" as a result of Cooks landing?

          • Grafton Gully 4.4.2.2.2
            12 September 2019 at 8:22 pm

            Actually it was the maoris who first colonised New Zealand and exterminated most of our wonderful endemic birds with their rats, dogs and fires – so much for your "historical and enduring rights violations" although I acknowledge your culture does not recognise animal rights. The annual slaughter of muttonbirds is proof enough of that.

  5. Kay 5
    12 September 2019 at 7:43 am

    @Rosemary, re your post in Daily review last night:

    "Goodness gracious me! Health Select Committee grows some balls and delivers right (or is that more rightly 'left'?) royal bollocking to Pharmac, Medsafe and the Misery of Health.

    It would seem that a common anti -depressant was replaced with a generic prompting 500 complaints of adverse effects. None of which raised safety or quality problems.

    Members not happy, Chair Louisa Wall…

    … questioned whether patients who were stable for years should have had their medications changed in the first place.

    "It seems that for me some of the patients on these drugs, they've been used as guinea pigs, 'lets just switch them, lets just see what happens to them and if they're adverse maybe we can switch them back,' that's really unacceptable to be honest," she said.

    and Michael Woodhouse was none too pleased…

    "It's fair to say the Select Committee were disappointed with the lack of empathy from Medsafe and the Ministry of Health and the finger pointing that went on between three government agencies effectively that said that there were certain things that could been done, but it's not our responsibly.

    "That's a frustration," he said.

    Mr Woodhouse said the committee will make sure the right thing is done by the petitioner.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/398580/ministry-of-health-medsafe-grilled-over-med-brand-switch "

    A great watch wasn't it? I do enjoy watching bureaucrats being made to squirm publicly and on the record. And it's a revelation to me that MPs can sometimes serve a useful purpose!

    Anyway… replace said anti-depressant with lamotrigine (the epilepsy drug I've spoken of here before) and include all epilepsy drugs alongside psychotropic drugs and what we are dealing with is an exact replay of what these submitters have been through, ie Pharmac have not learned a thing. Right down to all the different agencies pointing the finger and saying it's someone else's problem, and the patients and doctors not being informed this switch is even happening.

    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6025152-MedSafe-OIA.html?fbclid=IwAR16joIWo7cQNWyqK2KkW3-AkMf3vM406mhziCrDQcRT50ZpPMdHmi7pvVg

    You read this document and you can see that Pharmac are well aware of the dangers of what they are doing. The official date for the brand switch hasn't even happened (Oct 1) yet there has already been at least 4 CARM reports lodged for adverse reactions including hospitalisations for severe seizures, bipolar relapses and I'm aware of at least 3 people who have lost their driver's licences because of their first seizure in years following the brand switch. As members of the public you might want to be very relieved they weren't behind the wheel at the time. In other words, everything we told them would happen. Yet, Pharmac are STILL saying there isn't a problem. And don't get me started on the Minister.

    There are some fascinating things behind the scenes I've become privy to which I unfortunately can't post for now but hopefully in due course they will become public. I am, however, incredibly impressed at the masterclass in buck passing I've experienced from numerous Govt agencies, Ministers and MPs.

    • lprent 5.1
      12 September 2019 at 7:59 am

      Anyway… replace said anti-depressant with lamotrigine (the epilepsy drug I’ve spoken of here before) and include all epilepsy drugs alongside psychotropic drugs and what we are dealing with is an exact replay of what these submitters have been through, ie Pharmac have not learned a thing. Right down to all the different agencies pointing the finger and saying it’s someone else’s problem, and the patients and doctors not being informed this switch is even happening.

      Urggh. I have daily selection of heart medication pills that work well.

      But that was after a year that I spent with a dry cough because I reacted badly to side effect of one of the pills. Not a particularly severe problem. But it did leave me pretty exhausted by the end of hard days working on code. Repeated coughing is very hard work. It was also bloody distracting writing that code and affected my breathing when exercising. Even minor changes in medication can be significiant. Eventually got the medication substituted to an alternate and it was way better.

      The idea of having a unannounced change without me even known about it just sounds appalling. And I don’t take drugs designed to directly affect the way I think.

      • Kay 5.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 8:13 am

        @lprent, I strongly advise you keep a regular eye on Pharmac's website. That seems to be the only place brand changes are announced.

      • lprent 5.1.2
        12 September 2019 at 1:20 pm

        I check at the pharmacy. They are very good. Tell me about any changes like the occasional shortages or changes to suppliers or even one time a change to the mould.

        I think that they like that I ask.

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.2
      12 September 2019 at 8:34 am

      @Kay….has there been approaches made to the Select Committee regarding lamotrigine?

      Maybe now is a good time to get some attention for your particular issue…you know, a bit of coat tailing?

      As for the Minister…I've just about given up. There are supposed to be MOH DSS community engagement meetings over the next few weeks…https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/disability-services/disability-projects/disability-community-conversations…

      NB the page is headed…

      Disability community conversations

      We’re coming to talk to you about Disability Support Services…

      If that 'to' had been a 'with' or, god forbid the 'talk' had been a 'listen' I might have made the effort to attend one, depending on where we are….but I have no real hope these events will be any different from those in the past.

      Thinking back to your drug problem (wink), perhaps the only reason those MPs kicked up bobsey over the anti depressants is the whole 'we really care about mental health and suicide' trend at the moment? Seizures are not a 'thing' right now?

      • Kay 5.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 2:10 pm

        @Rosemary- Select Committee submission & presentation happening in the near future. Petition recently closed and to be presented. Woodhouse actually made reference to anti-epileptic drugs (in general but it was obviously lamotrigine) when he was "telling off" the Medsafe guy yesterday.

    • Stuart Munro. 5.3
      12 September 2019 at 9:47 am

      One has to be a little skeptical when Woodhouse, the defunder of so many hospitals suddenly professes concern for patient health. The bugger certainly didn't care when he was in power.

      • alwyn 5.3.1
        12 September 2019 at 1:34 pm

        Come, come Stuart. When did Woodhouse carry out what you accuse him off?

        "the defunder of so many hospitals" indeed? Just when did he ever have the power to do that? After all, to even be possible to be guilty of such a thing he would surely have to have been PM, Minister of Finance of Minister of Health.

        He wasn't any of those, was he?

        • Poission 5.3.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 1:51 pm

          Dear DHB chair.

          Please find enclosed the cheque for 1B$ for capex (the new build of your hospital.)

          (I will be available for photo ops at the sod turning)

          Love MW.

          PS please remember to adjust your opex accounts accordingly,to reflect the increased capital ROI of 80 million.

          • alwyn 5.3.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 2:29 pm

            Presumably you think this has some meaning. However what could it possibly have to do with Woodhouse? Did you even read the comment to which you are replying?

        • Stuart Munro. 5.3.1.2
          12 September 2019 at 2:40 pm

          He constantly underfunded DHBs and made no provision for required upgrades.

          He certainly wasn't any of those things, and neither were his colleagues who did have those titles. They made little or no provision for growth in health demand in spite of stuffing NZ full of immigrants to increase demand.

          He lived on a unique plane of uselessness inaccessible except to muppets of the calibre of Groser, Smith, Brownlee, and Guy – the only carbon positive feature of National – the thicket of deadwood.

          • alwyn 5.3.1.2.1
            12 September 2019 at 2:51 pm

            Oh dear. Your comment makes no sense Stuart.

            What was there about my comment which you would like me to explain in words of one syllable. Or have you been at the waccy baccy again?

            • Stuart Munro. 5.3.1.2.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 2:58 pm

              Hah! A chance'd be a fine thing.

              It makes perfect sense – Woodhouse is one of the kind of things you have to bury deep because the council rubbish collection wouldn't take him.

  6. marty mars 6
    12 September 2019 at 7:55 am

    still smoothing the pillow – same shit different day…

    A Māori man sits in a GP's office, asking for help. He's having heart trouble, which the doctor recognises as possible cardiovascular disease. The doctor gives him lifestyle advice: get some more exercise, improve your diet and quit smoking. When that's sorted, we can help you with some medication, he's told.

    A Pākehā man turns up the next day with the same symptoms. The doctor gives the same advice: stop eating so much rubbish and kick the nicotine habit. But the patient gets the medication up front.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/114876745/the-ongoing-racial-inequities-uncovered-in-decades-of-health-research

    • Sacha 6.1
      12 September 2019 at 7:57 am

      'But I'm not racist!' say the doctors…

      • weka 6.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 8:45 am

        I'm betting they're giving diet advice that is for Pākehā and not appropriate for many Māori too. Not that the Pākehā dietary advice is that great either, but I think it plays out much worse for Māori whose ancestors were eating quite differently.

        • Dukeofurl 6.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 9:17 am

          Ancestors ?

          Film from street scenes from 60s and 70s shows the whole population a lot less overweight.

          The explosion in takeaway food and high sugar foods is to blame.

          • weka 6.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 9:28 am

            There's theory (reasonable imo) that many Māori aren't particularly well suited to grains because grains haven't been part of their traditional diet historically. Yes refined carbs generally are an issue (for everyone). Looking at ancestral diets, low fat is not what Māori, or Europeans for that matter, have eaten and adapted to.

            There's clear evidence that populations shifting off traditional diets and onto modern western diets go from low numbers of certain health issues to high levels very quickly (within a generation) eg diabetes and heart disease. Diabetes rates can reach 50%. It's insane that public health is not looking at this. I'm guessing that Māori are being told to eat a low fat western diet, not their traditional diet. That will make the witholding meds issues even worse.

    • weka 6.2
      12 September 2019 at 8:43 am

      and it's not like NZ hasn't known about the inequities and reasons for a long time.

      • McFlock 6.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 11:12 pm

        Totally. I've been looking at the same chart for a decade, and it goes much farther back (basically 200 years):

        If something is "bad", such as a disease of almost any kind, it generally has the same pattern when it's broken down by ethnicity: highest rates in either Māori or Pasifika (can bounce about a bit), and much lower rates in European and other populations.

        There were some strong efforts to explore and address this pattern, but work really accelerated over the last couple of years, particularly with the Waitangi Tribunal judgement.

        But also, ISTR it was only 15 or 20 years ago that organisations like DHBs were mandated with actually being required to serve the needs of their communities (as opposed to just focusing on the people who turn up for treatment). There are still big walls between public health and clinical management, but media work like this really helps to break those down IMO.

        I mean, it doesn't make up for giving Hosking a job, but still it's good they're keeping light on the issue.

        • weka 6.2.1.1
          13 September 2019 at 12:32 am

          I was thinking about cultural sensitivity too (a term from the 90s?), where medical/health staff were expected to understand the varying needs of patients because of ethnicity (and this was backed by research afaik). Looks like some GPs are doing the inverse of that.

          Māori health educators were talking about the need for this 25 years ago, what happened to that? Institutional racism is the default unless the pressure is kept on and so systems just slip back into it?

          • McFlock 6.2.1.1.1
            13 September 2019 at 1:33 am

            My impression from an adjacent field is that lots of DHBs (and their predecessors) do good projects when they identify an issue (and that can come down to what the BComs call "intrapreneurs" and "product champions" as much as rational policy development). Some of these plans might even be centrally run by the ministry.

            But if they work so well they solve the problem locally, they can get defunded to fight the next fire. If the people driving the project move on in life, the projects can wither. Or the organisation gets restructured (MoH seems to be in permanent restructure mode), and the project gets lost.

            Or there's a disconnect between local experience and the ability of organisation management to identify and adress the problem.

            But there's also the thing that specialist projects are all well and good, but a lot of it comes down to overworked staff seeing someone turn up at their door. Maybe the email about the local project got swamped by the hundreds of other administrative emails they got that day. Maybe the seminar they could have attended clashed with clinical rounds. Maybe they are just tired. And so they don't notice their subconscious biases coming into play – racial, sexual, cultural, any of them. And they assess the patient, judging whether the pain levels are enough to justify something more than aspirin, or whether the symptoms indicate an emerging cardiac arrest, or whether the main focus should be on patient weight as a treatment plan.

            John Oliver had a really interesting thing on racist and sexist medical assessments a week or two back. It's really fucked up.

            Basically, my impression is that sometimes people at the top focus on it, people at the bottom manage to persuade people in the middle to focus on it, or people in the middle set benchmarks but can't allocate funding for a couple of community nurses or health professional trainers because they're still paying off last year's shortfall.

            Between the government focus on child poverty, the Waitangi ruling, and the measles outbreak (has required lots of lateral thinking, and has broken down some of the public health/clinical practise walls) it looks to me like the stars might be coming into alignment finally. I know several DHBs have specifically included equity in their plans, and not just in a bland "respect the principles of te Tiriti" paragraph. That graph I talked about gets mentioned a lot, because it's a clear illustration of failure. So I'm hopeful.

            But then I'm always a bit of an optimist.

    • Barfly 6.3
      12 September 2019 at 4:38 pm

      Marty Mars

      THINGS THAT YOU SHOULD PERHAPS CONSIDER

      Were the symptoms described of the same severity?

      Was the medical history of both patients the same?

      Were they the same age?

      Did they have the same body mass index?

      Did they same the same elevated blood pressure?

      Prescribing medication IS NOT SIMPLY BASED ON SYMPTOMS

      Not every medical situation has the exact same answer and not every different answer can be dismissed as racism

      • marty mars 6.3.1
        12 September 2019 at 5:48 pm

        how about you read the article

      • weka 6.3.2
        12 September 2019 at 10:31 pm

        Did you miss this bit?

        "Then what we found, if a Māori patient and non-Māori patient presented with the same symptoms, they both get screened and treated according to the guidelines, they both actually have the same outcomes."

        In other words, when Māori get the same access t healthcare their outcomes are better.

  7. phillip ure 7
    12 September 2019 at 8:11 am

    (this popped up on my twitter-feed..)

    'There’s tape of Paula Bennett telling Jamie Lee Ross that if he goes quietly they’ll tell the media it’s for medical reasons and his harassment of women need never become public. I mean ffs, she’s a hideous hypocrite I can’t stand hearing her preach…'

    (and..)

    Bounder
    @DawgBelly
    ·
    ‘8m
    Replying to
    @vegandogs50
    It’s already out there, google will lead you there’.

    • vto 7.1
      12 September 2019 at 8:15 am

      And don't forget the time she dropped those two women's personal details into the public domain, to get back at them.

      She is dishonest

      • Ffloyd 7.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 8:53 am

        Paula Bennett is a self righteous hypocrite. I wouldn't mind seeing an in depth expose.. ay on her time in politics. Many people have covered up for her over the years. Obviously still propped up by key.

        And the absolutely kack handed way she and Bridge handled the JLR debacle was just that. A debacle. Pretty much everything they said and did was highly debatable and morally reprehensible. The whole thing should be investigated.

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 9:05 am

          She seems to have been using the Womens mags to tell big fibs about her life – leaving out plenty of stuff

          The house she got under a good Winz deal while on the DPB and the same repeated to start her Social Work degree….. The Napier Tattoo Club ..no longer the wild teenager as she was in her 20s then.

          Porkies Paula

          https://www.nowtolove.co.nz/lifestyle/sex-relationships/paula-bennett-opens-up-about-her-loves-and-losses-and-those-wayward-teen-years-33917

          • Grantoc 7.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 9:29 am

            Jacinda's pretty good at using women's magazines too "to tell big fibs about her life" – "and leaving plenty of stuff out". Who doesn't. Well I don't because women's magazines are not that interested in me.

            More to the point, a strong tendency is developing to shoot the messenger (Bennet) in order to protect Ardern and the Labour party and to divert the commentary, That's natural; that happens and Labour plays this game as well as any other party.

            Two points to keep in mind however.

            1. The perception is that Labour has more energy in covering up and limiting the damage to the party, rather than reaching out and supporting the 'victims' and rigorously seeking out the truth of the situation. More generously they only started reaching etc at the last moment as the political pressure was building.

            2. The Labour party staffers/victims approached Bennett, so desperate were they about their situation and the injustices they felt were being visited upon them by the Labour party. This is the act that has made this so political. Through its ineptness Labour lost control of the situation, and hasn't got it back.

          • Cricklewood 7.1.1.1.2
            12 September 2019 at 3:26 pm

            Paula is an odious individual but this is a case of dont shoot the messenger if you ask me. Victims got painted into a corner they went to someone who they knew full well would make them heard.

          • mary_a 7.1.1.1.3
            12 September 2019 at 3:27 pm

            Dukeofurl @ 7.1.1.1 … No mention of Ashley Farrell from Bennett's Napier Tattoo Club days in the article. Yes there's plenty and more left out to make the write up all sweet for PB!

            It was Farrell's actions that caused Bennett to seek a legal injunction against anything from her NTC time being made public! There is some "interesting" history there! One day Paula, one day … Karma …

    • ianmac 7.2
      12 September 2019 at 8:56 am

      Suzie didn't let Bennett off scot free this morning. (About time)Questions the veracity of the naming of the "senior" for examples. And should she be making the issue political. And Lee Ross etc.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport

      • alwyn 7.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 9:40 am

        Out of curiosity can anyone identify an occasion when Morning Report ever accused Andrew Little or Winston Peters of politicizing the Pike River re-entry proposal?

        I find it very difficult to see any difference between Andrew pushing the re-entry agenda, because the families asked him to, and Bennett bringing up the sexual assault affair, because the victims asked her to.

        • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 9:59 am

          …because the victims asked her to.

          Listening to Bennett deftly deflecting Suzie's weak challenge this morning on the radio injected more than a little doubt about this whole sorry saga. This must be the most insincere sounding politician of all time, and the one that's always on the hunt for an opening through which to fire politically driven barbs. Knowing the history behind this particular National politician why on earth would anyone, and especially a woman, trust her to handle a serious complaint like this with complete integrity?

          Either someone kidnapped the Bennett we all know and loathe and replaced her with a real person, the complainants were blinded by desperation, or this is a beef up.

          • marty mars 7.2.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 10:22 am

            + 1 yep bennett exudes malice whilst smirking and wiping the lemon-tears away

          • alwyn 7.2.1.1.2
            12 September 2019 at 10:45 am

            "we all know and loathe".

            Wow! Now there is an unsupported generalisation if ever I saw one. Tell me. What would be the reaction on this site to someone who announced something like "As everyone agrees Ardern is a congenital liar" or something of that ilk?

            • Wensleydale 7.2.1.1.2.1
              12 September 2019 at 3:23 pm

              We'd probably disagree with you. In strenuous terms. But that's the great thing about discussion forums. Lively debate and a free and frank exchange of views. It's why people put up with you and Gosman.

      • Anne 7.2.2
        12 September 2019 at 10:14 am

        Yes, I caught the tail end of that ianmac. About bloody time. I think Paula B is sincere (sort of) about her concerns for the young complainants but it hasn't stopped her using it all for political gain. That is what disgusts me.

        In the meantime, this email from Jacinda to LP members and suppporters has just arrived in my inbox:

        Dear ……….
        Firstly, my apologies that it’s taken a few days to get this message to you. I know many of you will have seen media coverage around serious allegations involving Labour Party members. You may have also seen that Nigel Haworth has resigned as President of the Party. I wanted to share his statement with you.
        I also wanted to acknowledge that while the Party has sought to act with the best of intentions, we also need to be an organisation that admits when mistakes have been made. It disappoints me, and I know others, that we will not have met the expectations we have set ourselves. We know we must do better.
        I will continue to provide updates on the steps we’re taking, but in the meantime, support is available. If you wish to talk to someone specifically about the allegations that have been raised in the media, please contact our General Secretary Andre Anderson at (deleted).
        Otherwise, if you have questions or want to share any feedback, do drop me a line at (deleted).
        Until then, we’ll keep working on being better.
        Thank-you
        (signed) Jacinda Ardern

        Nice to have a transparent and caring Prime Minister who is strong enough to own up to her Party's mistakes and to do so without rancour or finger pointing.

        The statement from Nigel Haworth is along the lines he quoted to the media yesterday.

        • greywarshark 7.2.2.1
          12 September 2019 at 10:28 am

          Ms Ardern must draw on her popularity and expertise in the job to show her strength and singularity. She needs to administer controls and changes and deal to the men in the background who have been using her popularity to carry on with BAU as it suits them. They should know that the End of the Golden Weather has come for them. Old Labour used the Party to advance their own situation and leave the nest they had created and then fouled, and left when the mess was judged too difficult to restore.

          Now the people want to reclaim the Labour Party and rebuild it, not as was like the Christchurch Cathedral, but in a new modern way that actually both supports, leads, educates and listens to the voters so they can march to a different tune, quick and lively or else we will be ground down between climate change disasters and the intellectual and insightful deficits of those with the materialistic mindset.

        • mary_a 7.2.2.2
          12 September 2019 at 3:44 pm

          Thanks Anne @ (7.2.2)

          It does indeed take a strong sincere leader to admit mistakes have been made.

          In the face of this, it also takes a leader with guts to offer to meet up with the victims who have been allegedly wronged face to face to apologise and offer any help they might need to in getting justice, as Jacinda did yesterday.

          Let's hope Jacinda's offer will be positively acknowledged by the victims.

      • mac1 7.2.3
        12 September 2019 at 10:32 am

        I listened to the replay.

        There is a fault of logic that Paula Bennett displayed.

        The interviewer got out of Bennett that the information about who knew what among the three staffers she named was third hand and undocumented.

        The interviewer then asked whether Bennett was saying the PM had no plausible deniability.

        Bennett replied. that she didn't. She was either being misled or was misleading.

        Now surely if the PM was being misled by one or more of her staffers then that does actually say she had plausible deniability that she knew nothing of the sexual assault aspect of the case before she herself said she did.

        By Bennett's own logic, if the PM was misled, the PM is plausible in her denial of any such knowledge.

        But Bennett's logical error was to say that no matter whether she was misled or was being misleading, PM Ardern had no plausible deniability.

        She can’t have it both ways.

        • mac1 7.2.3.1
          12 September 2019 at 10:47 am

          Out of curiosity", alwyn? Methinks there is another motivation than curiosity in your question.

          I know that truth is truth no matter what one's motivation is to discover it, but at least acknowledge that your motivation is other than curiosity.

          Your actual point concerns hypocrisy that you say is being displayed with your link to Little and Pike River..

          Hypocrisy is inextricably linked into this whole saga.

          The actual complainants deserve better than hypocrisy, by Bennett or anyone else.

          • alwyn 7.2.3.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 1:22 pm

            I am not at all sure what you are talking about.

            I wasn't claiming that Little was being a hypocrite. Neither am I questioning Bennett. I am merely interested to know whether RNZ, or Red Radio as some refer to it. was perhaps being hypocritical. If they were claiming that Bennett was politicizing the matter they would, unless they had asked the same question of Little and also of the missing deputy PM, have certainly been exhibiting that sin.

            Where is the old reprobate by the way?

            • Poission 7.2.3.1.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 1:26 pm

              Where is the old reprobate by the way?

              Going through his winebox index,and examining items under the letter B.

            • mac1 7.2.3.1.1.2
              12 September 2019 at 2:34 pm

              alwyn, in your comment "I find it very difficult to see any difference between Andrew pushing the re-entry agenda, because the families asked him to, and Bennett bringing up the sexual assault affair, because the victims asked her to" you are reflecting that those who do not see that the two cases are similar are being hypocritical.

              If I'm wrong, that you weren't alluding to hypocrisy in either the Labour Party or Radio NZ, then what point were you making, considering what you said you were 'curious' about? I don't think that Peters comes into it because, as you allude in your query as to his whereabouts, he has not been heard recently on this issue.

              • alwyn …
                12 September 2019 at 3:01 pm

                OK. Very briefly. I think the two causes, helping the victims of the PM's Office miscreant and the families of the Pike River dead are very similar.

                The people I suspect of hypocrisy are the RNZ Morning Report presenters. If they try and attack Bennett but left alone Little and Peters, who also demanded a Pike River mine reentry they are hypocrites. If, on the other hand they had suggested that Little and Peters had been politicizing Pike River they are in the clear. They might, like me, have been a bit suspicious of the politicians on both sides of the House but they would have been consistent in those doubts, not hypocrites in defending their side of politics from all questions.

                Of course if you, like the Red Radio staff, consider Ms Ardern is somehow St Teresa's younger, more saintly, sister I fear there is no hope for you.

                Still, I am pretty sure that there is one member of the Government ranks who will be going around with an enormous beam on his face. Twyford is, for a while at least, free of his floggings at the hands of the Opposition during Question Time.

        • SPC 7.2.3.2
          12 September 2019 at 10:55 am

          The PM was kept in the dark, so she would mislead others when questioned by the media.

          They will say this was about protecting her, its the old school way – but it's not good enough for we too. So she has not been protected at all.

          • mac1 7.2.3.2.1
            12 September 2019 at 11:29 am

            A possibility, but not in my view plausible.

            Surely not enough to be certain, but enough for dirty politics to be practised.

            Isn't it a terrible state of affairs when everything that a PM of NZ says is doubted because of dirty politics, because of widespread regard, or lack of, for politicians, because of the behaviour of some politicians, and because of the bias of the listener to believe the worst.

            What does this say of us when we seem to always go to the worst of human behaviour as the likeliest explanation, especially when allt he facts are not in?

            On the 11 o’clock news, the PM was very clear as to the timeline of revelations. (Now refer to paragraph three above).

          • Cricklewood 7.2.3.2.2
            12 September 2019 at 3:32 pm

            If true that puts Jacinda as leader in name only in that the the old white men in the back ground feel they know better and are happy to make descisions about what she should and shouldn't know.

            Eitherway it makes things look rotten.

    • joe90 7.3
      12 September 2019 at 11:08 am

      Short on details Bennett and Bridges do put their party ahead of any victims of Lee's alleged harassment.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/11/new-leaked-recording-suggests-simon-bridges-paula-bennett-planned-jami-lee-ross-cover-up.html

  8. esoteric pineapples 8
    12 September 2019 at 8:27 am

    Excellent comments from George Galloway on Brexit and the Labour Party. Interestingly, he says that the Blairites have taken over the party again, and predicts a landslide victory for the Conservatives if they make a deal with Nigel Farage, because so many Labour voters voted to leave the EU in the referendum

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGYDV5d79k

    • JohnP 8.1
      12 September 2019 at 8:49 am

      Lot of Blairites would be amazed to find they've taken over the party I suspect.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 9:12 am

        would our version of the blairites – be the clarkists..?

        and if so – does the lack of any real action to end the poverty/homelessness that so blights our country –

        and the focus on middle-class welfare (free student fees/w.f.f.-welfare for those earning a hundred grand/kiwibuild..on and on it goes..

        (but no money for the poorest/those suffering the most..we 'can't afford' that..we are told..

        39 if the 42 recommendations of the welfare reform group ignored by the govt – and of the three accepted – at least two of them don't kick in for another year..(!))

        in essence – they have done s.f.a…

        does all this confirm that the clarkists are firmly in control of the money/ideology in the nz labour party…?

        • JohnP 8.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 9:19 am

          The parliamentary party isn't big enough to actually contain a genuine strand of socialism, is it? That's often found further out on the left, or further down Labour in the grassroots – which then gets dismissed by the senior party members (which, in retrospect, is a worrying sentence given current events).

          • phillip ure 8.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 10:19 am

            is it 'socialism' to feed the hungry/house the homeless…?

            when did we lose the consensus that this is just what humans do..?

            that this is the basis of any attempt/pretence at civilisation..?

  9. phillip ure 9
    12 September 2019 at 8:41 am

    an interesting aspect of the hong kong riots – is how they are providing a blueprint for effective direct action –

    (esp. in more democratic environs…those more likely to bend to such sustained direct-agitation,,)

    i am sure the extinction-rebellion people are watching/taking notes…

  10. Chuck 10
    12 September 2019 at 9:32 am

    "Deputy opposition leader Paula Bennett says the alleged victims of assault thanked her for naming people who she says knew about the allegations in Parliament."

    https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/labour-assault-complaints-paula-bennett-says-alleged-victims-wanted-the-truth-out-there/ar-AAH9n4L?ocid=spartandhp

    "Ms Bennett used parliamentary privilege to name several of the prime minister's most senior staff and a Cabinet minister who she says have known for some time about the allegations."

    "However, she admitted her information on who knew what was based on hearsay."

    Hearsay directly from the alleged victims, so not easy for Ardern or the Labour leadership to bat away.

    Haworth was always going to go…however the events of the last 24hours are now putting Ardern at risk, more heads will roll to protect the Labour and Governments number one asset.

    • Stuart Munro. 10.1
      12 September 2019 at 10:00 am

      "Deputy opposition leader Paula Bennett says the alleged victims of assault thanked her"

      Paula sez lots of things.

      Whether they are true it is mostly happenstance.

      • Incognito 10.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 10:05 am

        FYI, feel free to respond but Chuck’s been chucked out and won’t be coming back unless the ban is reversed by the moderator who placed it.

    • Wayne 10.2
      12 September 2019 at 10:37 am

      When a person tells you something they have directly done it is not hearsay. So if the victims say they told “x” that is not a hearsay statement.

      • Anne 10.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 10:47 am

        Unless the person making the claim about who told them what they had done… is not telling the whole truth. And in this case the person in question has a reputation for… not telling the whole truth.

        • Cricklewood 10.2.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 3:35 pm

          Are you saying one of the victims is lying? or theyve been less than honest in the past so likely to be lying in this case?

          • Anne 10.2.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 4:35 pm

            It should be obvious who I'm referring to if you have followed the line of comments and it's not one of the victims.

      • Stuart Munro. 10.2.2
        12 September 2019 at 11:10 am

        That would be true if they were speaking directly – but they are not.

        They are allegedly speaking through PB, but she has no direct knowledge of what she alleges they claim.

        • Wayne 10.2.2.1
          12 September 2019 at 12:11 pm

          What the victims say to PB that is in their direct knowledge is not hearsay to PB. She is hearing it directly from the persons it happened to. So when the victims say to PB they told “x” of the incident that is not hearsay to PB. Of course PB has to make an assessment of the truthfulness of what is said.

          Imagine a court hearing. A jury is in the same position as PB is in this situation when they hear from the victim giving testimony from the witness stand.

          • Stuart Munro. 10.2.2.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 12:18 pm

            Yes, it's not hearsay as spoken to Paula – it becomes hearsay when she repeats it or embroiders on the theme.

            Paula is not the court, sweet gods of light forfend, and her utterances have neither the veracity of experience nor the ordinary culpability for slander that attaches to more direct personal assertions. She is being very careful not to repeat some allegations outside parliament, which suggests she may have been speaking rather freely within it.

            • Wayne 10.2.2.1.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 1:17 pm

              My analogy was that PB is in the same position as a jury in hearing what victims say, not that she was like a court.

              Notwithstanding the antipathy about PB on this site, it is hardly likely that PB would actively misrepresent what the victims have told her. Think about it for a moment. If PB did so, she would be at enormous risk that the victims would contradict her by going to the media themselves.

              • Stuart Munro. …
                12 September 2019 at 2:14 pm

                "it is hardly likely that PB would actively misrepresent "

                Unless she perceived a shred of personal or political gain from doing so.

                Had she the kind of neutral personality you're trying to pretend she'd have found them a non-political advocate to keep her hands clean. So as not to participate in the exploitation of the victims herself.

          • KJT 10.2.2.1.2
            12 September 2019 at 12:54 pm

            Given Paula Bennetts well known history of hypocritical bad faith, and lack of moral compass, I find it almost unbelievable that any victims of harassment or assaults', would go to her

      • mauī 10.2.3
        12 September 2019 at 12:03 pm

        Yes Wayne…. anything can be true when you remove Bennett from the chain of events 😆

    • Dukeofurl 10.3
      12 September 2019 at 12:03 pm

      You dont know what hearsay means

      "Hearsay directly from the alleged victims,.."

      Thats direct evidence not hearsay at all.

  11. greywarshark 11
    12 September 2019 at 10:56 am

    Under neo lib the country is supposed to be run with an idea to encourage business and enterprise and be effective as well as efficient. What a grand scheme. Pity we have never succeeded. It appears that it was always meant to assist big business, who with all that is going for them still manage to muck up their particular entities. Then they make it hard for the myriads of small and micro businesses that keep the country running. One feels disillusioned with neo lib, free marketeers and robber barons.

    Can we pull finger and help these small businesses trying to add value from the tourists swamping the country?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/398613/restaurant-owner-frustrated-at-immigration-new-zealand-have-some-emotion

  12. Pete George 12
    12 September 2019 at 11:01 am

    Former senior Labour staffer Neale Jones:

    I haven't said much about the current issues in Labour because frankly it's all just so bloody sad & awful. Can we just agree this is not a time for Labour supporters to engage in conspiracies or partisan hackery? Our sole focus should be to fix this mess & make the party safe.

    https://twitter.com/nealejones/status/1171917068783931392

    • Stuart Munro. 12.1
      12 September 2019 at 11:23 am

      Had the victims chosen another channel such an exhortation might carry some weight. But they chose Paula Bennett, who is using it as a stick to beat the government. Had she not chosen the path of media grandstanding but pursued a resolution as quietly as she claims to have done over JLR, partisan responses would indeed be out of order. As it is her noise presents an obstacle to the swift and just resolution of the victims complaints, she neither needs nor deserves the consideration that would apply to an honest broker.

      • Pete George 12.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 11:33 am

        They did choose another channel first – the Labour Party. And as Jacinda has acknowledged, that failed the complainants.

        “This morning I was provided some of the correspondence from complainants written to the party several months ago. It confirms that the allegations made were extremely serious, that the process caused complainants additional distress, and that ultimately, in my view, the party was never equipped to appropriately deal with the issue.

        “I discussed the correspondence with the Labour Party President this morning. Whilst he stands by the statements he has made on this matter I believe mistakes were made.

        “Raising an allegation of sexual assault is an incredibly difficult thing to do; for additional distress to be caused through the way those allegations are handled is incredibly upsetting. On behalf of the Labour Party I apologise to the complainants for the way this matter has been dealt with."

        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1909/S00078/jacinda-ardern-accepts-labour-party-president-resignation.htm

        Paula Bennett explained in Parliament yesterday:

        The complainants were members of the Labour Party. They genuinely believed that the party would listen to their complaints and deal with the alleged offender appropriately, but nothing happened. It clearly has taken an incredible sense of frustration, disappointment, and disillusion for these people to come to me, a National Party MP, to try and see their complaints addressed.

        https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20190911_053250000/bennett-paula-mallard-trevor

        Deputy opposition leader Paula Bennett says the alleged victims of assault thanked her for naming people who she says knew about the allegations in Parliament.

        Ms Bennett said she named the staffers because the victims felt the ongoing silence was revictimising.

        "They wanted the truth out there," she said.

        "I would say, right throughout this, the victims have proved to be honest and telling the truth."

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/398602/labour-assault-complaints-paula-bennett-says-alleged-victims-wanted-the-truth-out-there

        • Stuart Munro. 12.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 11:42 am

          Sure they did Pete.

          "I would say, right throughout this, the victims have proved to be honest and telling the truth."

          Says Bennett, a highly politicized and less than reliable source. What the victims actually said or think remains to be determined. Bennett's keenness to pat herself on the back in this way rather undermines her already slender credibility – and yours, since you seem to think this unsubstantiated assertion is worth repeating.

        • greywarshark 12.1.1.2
          12 September 2019 at 11:45 am

          You really are enjoying this aren't you Pete George. A white knight charging forward with a banner for truth and justice. I hope something good will arise from these revelations. I am sure that is what we all want from this.

          • Cricklewood 12.1.1.2.1
            12 September 2019 at 3:37 pm

            No doubt he is enjoying sticking it to the commentators at The Standard doesnt make him wrong unfortuantly

    • Anne 12.2
      12 September 2019 at 11:39 am

      Can I say to Mr Neale Jones he has his wires crossed. It is National who have politicised this matter and are engaging in "conspiracies and partisan hackery". Labour supporters are merely responding in an effort to put a few records straight.

      It might be wise if you, Pete George, stopped stoking the fires.

      • Pete George 12.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 11:53 am

        "Labour supporters are merely responding in an effort to put a few records straight. "

        I think you may actually believe that.

        I think that Neale is a Labour supporter.

        • Rapunzel 12.2.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 1:45 pm

          Some of the media are coining it on the back of "victims" they would rub their hands with glee if only they could find more. Morgan Godfery is on both the Spinoff & North & South payroll on this and spent the morning congratulating himself on a radio interview. What is his expertise in cases like this? Does he have the details the QC is trawling through to deliver the fact to NZ? Peter Williams gleefully refers to it as the "Labour Party Sex Scandal" what use to "victims" is that? Last year people superior to the National Party and usury media showed restraint when two MPs were exposed this should have been taken to police and should never have been handed to Bennett to politicise. The QC is the one who can finally and properly set the record straight, it is not impatience driving this it is self-interest all normal people want is the facts.

          • Incognito 12.2.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 2:07 pm

            The QC is the one who can finally and properly set the record straight, it is not impatience driving this it is self-interest all normal people want is the facts.

            Some people feel entitled to ‘facts’ of their own, especially in this post-truth era. Among these people are the ones with an agenda, self-interest, or both.

            Read and weep; this is having a bob each way from an amoral Political Editor and Life Member of the Press Gallery:

            Don't expect the guilt to fall on Ardern when the Queen's Counsel they've hired to review the process Labour adopted in dealing with the complaint comes down with her finding. For her part the PM's left us in no doubt that she's had what she says is contradictory information from what Haworth's been telling her and what's she's now finally seen in the media.

            She says she needs clarity and will act decisively when the QC delivers her findings in about a month's time. If Haworth's found wanting, Ardern says she expects him to do the decent thing and resign. But what if she's found wanting? I can't see her doing the same thing.

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12266572

            • Rapunzel 12.2.1.1.1.1
              12 September 2019 at 2:41 pm

              Why the issue with waiting for the QC report ordered five weeks back?

              The way it is being reported is about as much about "victims" of this or any abuse, bullying or intimidation in this country, as Bridges' wish to be PM is about the best for NZ.

              On what planet does someone who refers to an MP as "f'n" useless to a colleague, is unclear with donations and overlooks their own MPs behaviour get to pontificate without facts or evidence anyone else's conduct?

              What sort of political party offers that up and says this will have to do for now, that is what we are offering as "our leader"!

      • Pete George 12.2.2
        12 September 2019 at 1:02 pm

        "It might be wise if you, Pete George, stopped stoking the fires."

        I'm not sure what you intended with that comment.

        The fires of bullying, abuse, sexual and general violence, and related abuses of power (particularly by men) have been raging in our society for a long time. Do you think that I should shut up and accept things as they have been?

        Or do you think that protecting the Labour Party from embarrassment is more important than exposing these highly damaging practices that have been supported by silence?

        • Anne 12.2.2.1
          12 September 2019 at 2:08 pm

          I'll tell you what I intended PG. You're stoking unnecessary fires on this site. It's no use professing your innocence because it is clear you're being mischievous.

          And stop inferring your sole concern is the sexual harassment and bullying of women (young and old), and that my intentions – and others here – is something less than that.

          I've been there. I know what the victims have been going through. I know the hurt, anger and dismay they have been feeling. You don’t. So I say again: stop stoking the fires.

        • Stuart Munro. 12.2.2.2
          12 September 2019 at 2:19 pm

          In your case exposing the fires of bullying, abuse, etc. seems to be a pursuit you'll only indulge to the extent it impugns Labour. Unless you can produce credible evidence to the contrary?

        • Tiger Mountain 12.2.2.3
          12 September 2019 at 2:35 pm

          Where were you Mr George when the Nats under Mr Key, with Mrs Bennett on board, cut funding to Rape Crisis & Womens Refuge, ended Relationship Services at short notice, when Mr English threatened a rare veto to stop an increase in Paid Parental Leave, not to mention union busting, stonewalling on Pay Equity, and generally making women’s lives more miserable than they needed to be?

          A bunch of Nats new found concern for women’s issues and accusers is very touching, but also rather transparent.

  13. greywarshark 13
    12 September 2019 at 11:37 am

    We must not get too deep into our own personal and society's problems and remember to have concern for others, even worse off. RIP you young ones who are giving up before you have even had a chance of growing up and having a life with some joy.

    A young Indian girl from poverty stricken family could not afford the pencil required after she was promoted to a higher class and gave up trying. She set herself on fire, it was reported.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLL0Qj1gLy0

    Another was shamed by her teacher in front of the class because her period started and the blood had stained her clothes. She was told she was dirty and to leave the room. There was reference in the Radionz report to poverty so she had no supplies of pads available to cope. She jumped from a building.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8H5aHd87pk

    And the way that hearing these mounting sad stories can brutalise us is shown by a report on the above item being illustrated with what must have been a handy image available of a girl who had hanged herself shown dangling. Not the actual image of the tragedy being reported but another dead girl from the image stocks so near enough thought the media outlet. I won’t put up the link as that would be compounding the disrespect and insensitivity.

    • Sacha 13.1
      12 September 2019 at 11:48 am

      We must not get too deep into our own personal and society's problems.

      Gosh, it's almost as if there is no point coming here and saying things.

  14. greywarshark 14
    12 September 2019 at 11:56 am

    How can our health system afford to treat people who are sick or with health problems so they can get better and carry on with their life, when increasingly the public system is facing demands to aid people who have terminal illnesses to prolong life; cancer, other diseases or genetic malfunctions, or even old age bringing death – A cure for all diseases as in the name of a Reginald Hill book.

    Perhaps this is the cause of the UK wanting to get out of the NHS. It can become a business for the USA and the government slides away from a wasting disease of their exchequer?

    health 8:35 am today https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018712925/nz-falling-behind-in-cancer-survival-rates

    NZ falling behind in cancer survival rates

    From Morning Report, 8:35 am today Listen duration 3′ :56″

    New Zealand is falling behind other countries — especially Australia — when it comes to surviving cancer. That's the key conclusion of an international study of cancer survival, published in Lancet Oncology. Health correspondent Karen Brown has the details.

  15. The Al1en 15
    12 September 2019 at 12:07 pm

    Kate Hawkesby: The fall of Jacinda Ardern and the rise of Simon Bridges

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12266946

    Well, she would say that wouldn’t she, Mike.

  16. Sacha 16
    12 September 2019 at 12:24 pm

    I missed this gem yesterday – it's all Ardern's fault that she's surrounded by liars: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/398569/power-play-how-has-jacinda-ardern-ended-up-in-middle-of-scandal

    • Anne 16.1
      12 September 2019 at 8:27 pm

      Pitiful isn't it. They're like a pack of 'News of the World' type hounds barking and baying mindlessly at the full moon.

      By joves, I think it is a full moon at the mo too. Close to it anyway.

  17. indiana 17
    12 September 2019 at 12:28 pm

    Ouch!

    "Ardern is charismatic, she smiles a lot, she nods a lot, she says inspirational things and you want to believe her.

    But slowly it's being undone. The Empress has no clothes. She lacks commercial and interpersonal acumen. She is not a natural leader, she's indecisive and farms things out too much _ reports, reviews, committees, working groups."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12266946

    • AB 17.1
      12 September 2019 at 2:38 pm

      Lols. Anyone who uses the phrase "commercial acumen" has either been reading a bunch of extremely badly-written CVs, or has the IQ of a bag of compost. Though personally, if I was ever accused of lacking a cliche for a non-existent entity, I'd be quite chuffed.

    • Psycho Milt 17.2
      12 September 2019 at 3:54 pm

      "Ouch?" More like "Meh." I'd be more worried if shit examples of humanity like Hawkesby and Hosking held her in high regard.

    • Wensleydale 17.3
      12 September 2019 at 3:56 pm

      Farms things out. I thought that was called 'delegating'. And I thought that was supposed to be a smart and efficient thing to do. I mean, unless you're an octopus you can't be expected to keep your finger (tentacle?) on the pulse of absolutely everything going on, right? John Key used a selection of hats. (Prime Ministerial hat, mealy-mouthed evasiveness hat, talking to Cameron Slater and not really wanting anyone to know about it hat, etc.) Jacinda Ardern delegates. I wasn't aware it was such a controversial notion.

    • Incognito 17.4
      12 September 2019 at 4:58 pm

      She is not a natural leader, she's indecisive and farms things out too much _ reports, reviews, committees, working groups.

      How dare she seek advice? How dare she seek input from stakeholders? What gall to base policy decisions on available best evidence. Act like a true democratically elected leader, make all decisions unilaterally, and veto all others. A true leader is omniscient, prescient, and totalitarian. The world according to Kate.

  18. soddenleaf 18
    12 September 2019 at 1:03 pm

    No. I can't see how Labour party activists, however mistreated, would want their party to suffer. The Labour party did not molest anyone. In handling the matter badly, alledgely, coz how do you handle it, go-to the police already. So to see a women, the PM! being attacked by the opposition for an alledged crime by a man… ..just a distraction.

    How about explaining to me how early Maori sold their slaves time for nails to whalers? As part of the new history curriculum. How westerners bought their new farming techniques was harmful to Maori, how having a historical past Europeans had been enslaved by Roman invaders… …were appalled that that practice still existed… ..etc. Oh, the joys of Maori values being impacted by irreversible change, technology, culture, invasion by peoples who didn't enslave. Sure poverty accentuates divisions on race, culture, origin, how much is that racism or just bad luck. Room to live equal, no problem, room to invent a western impacted indigenous seperatistic superstition… …for the tourists hey? Nice timing, govt backfoots while dumping that snafu into the the arena.

    • greywarshark 18.1
      12 September 2019 at 4:32 pm

      Not good sodden leaf. Two separate dissensions there if you have to bring them up.

      Women and abuse and the Labour Party is one.

      And the second. Maori and criticisms of what they used to do and mixed historical mish mash that doesn't lead anywhere good… Romans… slaves … Europeans bring change etc. Where does that take anyone?

      Keep them separate or better still keep them to yourself.

    • AB 20.1
      12 September 2019 at 5:44 pm

      Bit of a shame – was hoping for some fully automated luxury socialism. The point being, that whether technology is a force for good or evil will come down to who owns it and how they intend to use it. If it is used solely to maximise shareholder value, large scale misery will ensue. Bur there ARE choices to be made.

  22. Dennis Frank 22
    12 September 2019 at 2:42 pm

    Hearing a male member refer to the Labour Party's rape culture during an RNZ interview got me interested. Reading the Spinoff's timeline of the arduous process that the idealistic young Labour volunteer (Sarah) was put through by the party hierarchy got me empathic. Bad enough to be subjected to vaginal finger penetration by the Young Labour leader while his arm pressed on her windpipe to stop her calling for help.

    Then to have the investigating panel decide not to record the details of her complaint about it. Followed by not disclosing their falsification of her evidence to her. Followed by them reporting to the Labour Council that there was no basis to take action against the offender.

    Ardern's gang seem to be intent on performing an exhibition of surrealism as political art. Putting a lawyer on the investigating panel was a master-stroke: nobody expects lawyers to act in accord with the principles of natural justice. Common experience of the consequence of legal practice rated lawyers below used-car salesmen traditionally, so we naturally are unsurprised to discover one involved in misrepresenting her complaint. Defending the corporate body is the priority, so they have to protect the offender.

    So Ardern's choice to use a female QC to up the ante is interesting. Will the law be used to produce a resolution? I mean, will she provide victim support for a prosecution? Does doing party work in a private residence as a volunteer make the home a work-place?? The offence occurred when the were organising for a regional party conference.

    "He also sent Sarah screenshots of explicit private messages exchanged with another party member, seen by The Spinoff, in which the pair fantasised about having sex with her. “I would feel manly if she was on her knees,” he wrote." https://thespinoff.co.nz/unsponsored/09-09-2019/a-labour-volunteer-alleged-violent-sexual-assault-by-a-senior-staffer-this-is-her-story/

    Dominance/submission relations have been part of politics forever, but rarely so openly. Could be that the attempt by young generations to recycle this in the new millennium is worth a discussion or two. Evolutionary theory explains this stuff as hard-wired, hormone-induced, but the old notion that we are civilised when we control animal urges seems as valid as ever.

    Trotter's thesis is a binary divide between elite & plebs within Labour. Unwritten rules guide behaviour: "But, among themselves – among the ones who get it – the objectives, and the rules of the game, are very different."

    "And yet, these are the rules the young complainants in this latest scandal have had to negotiate their way through: a task made all the more difficult and distressing by the fact that nobody told them what they were. They did not understand that the invitation to come forward with their personal experiences of sexual misconduct was never meant to be taken seriously. They did not grasp that the prime objective of the Labour Party is not to build a better, fairer world, but to win the next election. Or, that the people to be protected within the party are not its youngest and most idealistic members, but its most skilled electoral technicians; the paid staffers who know their way around the ever-more-complex circuitry of political power. These complainants, however, have proved to be fast learners of the elite’s unwritten rules. (Telling their stories to Paula Bennett and The Spinoff proved a masterstroke!)" [http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/]

    Labour's exploitation of naive volunteers must have been institutionalised long ago, else the offender wouldn't be so confident he could get away with it. I heard that 12 complainants have now emerged, so `he said, she said' can't be used to invalidate Sarah's testimony. Labour ought to abandon it's attempt to copy the catholic church method of institutionalised cover-up. Will they try to explain why their kangaroo court falsified the evidence? Hard to see how they can fake any innocent explanation.

    • Rapunzel 22.1
      12 September 2019 at 3:26 pm

      The facts from the QC are to come but meantime some things are being stated as facts.

      I have not read the Spinoff but you say this is what they report "his arm pressed on her windpipe to stop her calling for help" besides an attack of a sexual nature that is a serious physical and grievous attack of the level that must be reported to police. Did investigating panel give the advise to report and why did Paula Bennett say it wasn't at a certain level that would require that or words to that effect?

    • Climaction 22.2
      12 September 2019 at 3:47 pm

      That’s harrowing.

      My heart goes out to the victim. No one should have had to fight to hear that horrible story heard

      • Cinny 22.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 4:39 pm

        Totally agree with you.

        That's why I'm struggling a bit with it all especially paula absolutely relishing in the media attention and the political baiting for personal gain.

        Patiently looking forward to the QC's report.

  23. mac1 23
    12 September 2019 at 4:04 pm

    Today in Parlianent a very emotional introduction of the Rua Kēnana Pardon Bill offering a statutory pardon to the prophet, Rua Kēnana, who was incarcerated unlawfully in a militia raid on Maungapohatu in 1916.

    Rua Kēnana opposed conscription of Maori during WW1 and was arrested for sedition, whilst his son and one other were killed.

    A month ago I stood at the entrance of the track to Maugapohatu off the Lake Waikaremoana road as I did over forty years ago and remembered Rua Kēnana as a pacifist forebear in the history of Aotearoa. I did not know then of the Bill being introduced today.

    I am very pleased that Parliament is taking this action, and that both sides of the House are in agreement on this.

    Maybe the same might happen in time for such as the Parihaka ploughmen and the Taranaki men imprisoned in 1869-72 and 1879-81.

    I am also happy with the announcement that our history will be taught to all in New Zealand schools. There are so many stories unknown, misunderstood and belittled by ignorance.

    By knowing and acknowledging our history we will grow as a people together with understanding and aroha, and perhaps maybe just not repeat the mistakes of our past.

    • Tiger Mountain 23.1
      12 September 2019 at 4:22 pm

      Well put mac1. That Police Commissioner John Cullen that pursued Rua was a right piece of work.

      If there is one thing about some New Zealanders that ticks me off, it is those sitting on stolen or dubiously acquired land that have the temerity to criticise Māori people for anything!

      Education works, or it did in my case, when I had the good fortune to be invited as a young worker, in the late 70s, to WEA (Workers Education Association) sessions on the Treaty of Waitangi. It gave me a whole different take on this country, which knowledge I have added to over the years. Every little corner of this country has its own story to tell if you dig a little.

      Until Māori are doing well, it holds everyone back as much as many are in deep denial about the implications of post colonial fall out.

  24. marty mars 24
    12 September 2019 at 4:14 pm

    You disgraced yourself you fundy nutbar and showed the hatred in your heart

    Wainwright said the carving "disgusted" him and promoted sex for pleasure, which he believes has led to the degeneration of society.

    "When indecent statues are put in public in the name of culture, we have lost our chart and compass," he said outside the courtroom.

    …

    In court, Judge Lance Rowe said it was a deliberate and premeditated attack, which Wainwright knew would offend a large group of people.

    He had shown cultural and religious "ignorance" and imposed his moral view on Māori.

    "Your explanation was that you were making an indecent thing decent. You understood the harm this would cause."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/115721198/man-who-cut-phallus-from-maori-carving-says-he-was-doing-gods-work

    [Quotation marks added for clarity]

    • marty mars 24.1
      12 September 2019 at 4:16 pm

      can't edit – the first sentence is from me the rest is quoted text. Sorry.

      • Peter 24.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 4:33 pm

        Wainwright it is said. runs the Woodville Organ Museum. Most appropriate since he seems to be anther religious dick.

    • Cinny 25.1
      12 September 2019 at 5:15 pm

      Good.

      Edit…. often that’s all a person wants or needs….for the one that has caused them hurt or harm to just go away.

  26. Sacha 26
    12 September 2019 at 5:13 pm

    Alleged abuser 'enjoyed his time at parliament', resigns without the slightest apology https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115758406/staffer-at-centre-of-labour-abuse-claims-have-resigned

    • Herodotus 26.1
      12 September 2019 at 5:25 pm

      I read that the terms of the inquiry were yet to be fashioned, if that is the case then has the QC commenced this yet or just been engaged ? If the review process hasn't yet commenced how can the ex staffer have already been co -operating ?

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/11-09-2019/timeline-labour-staffer-misconduct-inquiry/

      From the time line this was placed 10 Sept "that the man has “agreed to cooperate fully” with the QC-led inquiry, and legal action may follow."

      From Sacha's link "…I am co-operating fully with the Dew inquiry that is now underway, and will continue to do so, having been assured that this process will be fair to all parties."

      • Pat 26.1.1
        12 September 2019 at 6:11 pm

        two points…

        an apology demanded at this stage assumes guilt…is he to be convicted before trial?

        secondly..it is highly likely in light of the latest news that the terms of the enquiry will be changed

        as always it would be best not to jump to conclusions…and a very good argument for why the Labour Party should never have attempted to investigate themselves (as the PM has said)

        • Herodotus 26.1.1.1
          12 September 2019 at 7:01 pm

          Pat not sure if your response was to me or to another comment, I reread my post and cannot see were there is any inferring of demanding an apology or jumping to any conclusion 🤷🏽‍♂️

          I was asking if the inquiry had commenced and the terms been set, as there is differing commentary- as the links have both past tense "I am co-operating" and future "agreed to cooperate fully "

          • Pat 26.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2019 at 9:42 pm

            sorry…was a combined response to both yourself (26.1) and Sacha (comment @ 26)

            The enquiry may have started but with the PMs new appraisal the terms may well be extended/changed was my point…she did say they were being set in consultation with the complainant(s)

    • Pete George 26.2
      12 September 2019 at 7:09 pm

      There's some careful wording coming out.

      "I adamantly refute the serious allegations made against me."

      Only referring to the 'serious' allegations. there is reported to be a range of allegations.

      And it's common for people accused of serious sexual crimes to claim that what they didn't wasn't as serious as alleged.

      • Incognito 26.2.1
        12 September 2019 at 7:25 pm

        Pete, you make a good amateur neuro-linguist one day, but don’t give up your daytime job just yet.

        Of course, some sex crimes are more serious than others but they all are very serious IMHO.

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