I'd have thought it's just common sense for all teachers and school staff to be vaccinated. It shouldn't be a big deal, given some of the homes some of the kids come from, and the overcrowded classrooms these days.
I believe there are some good arguments against being vaccinated with the mRNA Pfizer jab ,but ONLY if one is young, very healthy, and is un-immunocompromised. And that would apply to very few people out there , some of who may well be young, fit, health "addict" teachers. If they are dead against this vaccination then I don't see why they should have to lose their job. Bear in mind a vaccinated person can pass covid on anyway. Just saying.
Sounds like you've done your own research, Garibaldi, and have identified groups that should avoid vaccination!
Weird how all the credible experts (Bloomfield, Baker etc in NZ) think getting everyone vaccinated down to infants (once approved) is the way to go, to give the best protection to everyone. The vaccines are incredibly safe, especially compared to the disease. Just Saying.
Perhaps the teaching profession could afford to lose a few teachers who don't believe in science or in protecting the wellbeing of kids and their families.
Alot of water is yet to go under the bridge before we find out everything about these covid vaccines. I have some nagging doubts about them but was happy to get the jab to avoid going to an overloaded hospital. Yes, I have done it for social and selfish reasons. I don't think the science and politics behind any of the big Pharma companies are squeaky clean. Time will tell.
I know a number of teachers who will have to make this call. Some (I don't agree with them) will lose their jobs over this. None of them like being lied to.
The first bit would be fair, if we weren't talking about getting a vaccine in the middle of a fucking pandemic. What about the risk your hypothetical employee is putting on everyone else? Their paycheque isn't worth someone else's life.
the second bit – we’re still discussing that elsewhere.
So will vaccinated teachers who are working in cramped and overcrowded classrooms have the right to know the vaccination status of all their students and families – and exclude the unvaccinated?
Desks were arranged like exam time. They had all been cleaned. There was plenty of hand sanitiser in every room. Teachers discussed the usual, coughing onto your elbow, thorough hand washing, social distancing.
At morning tea, the girls all hugged each other, and the boys were on the back field rolling around like labrador puppies.
Isn't anyone here worried about the human rights implications of these mandates? Whatever you believe about the vaccines the walking over of the bill of rights is terrifying. What comes next?
I think the focus is in the wrong place here. When this pandemic ends what rights will we as citizens be left with?
Its not just trampling rights, its pitting family member against family member, fear of losing employment etc, resentment that you dont really have a real choice anymore, resentment when a stranger thinks it ok to quiz you on your medical information, resentment that neighbors are encouraged to dob each other in over percieved violation… some people find these things extremely frightening.
When PM Ardern said the government would not apply penalties, and that those choosing not to be vaccinated were placing themselves at risk, the Delta outbreak was but a gleam under Collins’ eyebrow.
"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine.
"But I would say for anyone who doesn't take up an effective and tested and safe vaccine when it's available, that will come at a risk to them."
“Adapt or die.” If the current outbreak gets out of control then our government may change tack on "tax penalties or other sanctions" – it’s simply commonsense to adapt to changing circumstances. But I'd be surprised and disappointed if they reneged on the committment to no forced vaccinations in NZ.
Has any NZer had a Covid-19 vaccine forced on them? NZ border workers had a choice; I would be surprised and disappointed if it’s any different for teachers / healthcare workers – the choice is theirs. Makes you think, eh?
Teachers and especially healthcare workers are in demand globally, so NZ may face some staff shortages as these mandates loom – choices and consequences, as always.
Devon Greyson, assistant professor of public health at the University of British Columbia, said officials are steering into uncharted waters with mass vaccine mandates, and it's not clear how workers will respond.
"A shortage of workers can mean people's health and well being. It's scary," Greyson said.
However, Greyson added, "we're in an ethical situation where it's also scary not to ensure that all health workers are vaccinated. So it's a bit of a Catch-22."
To tackle staff scarcity, at least one province is offering signing bonuses to nurses. Provinces including Quebec and British Columbia have made it mandatory for healthcare workers and nursing staff to be vaccinated to continue working in their respective fields.
"So if OSH prosecute employers who have unvaxxed staff, that's not a sanction?"
No it's not. Because they would only investigate if there was an 'incident' (such as an infection). And they would only prosecute if the employer had not taken all reasonable steps. Let the employers decide, and advertise their decision so the community can make informed choices.
Because they would only investigate if there was an 'incident' (such as an infection).
Well, OSH regards hazards / near misses as reportable instances as well, and does investigate them.
So, basically, if a work-place were required to have an up to date register of vax status, and someone wasn't up to snuff, then that person working onsite would be a safety violation and the employer could be charged – that's not a sanction on the staff member fired because they can't do their job safely.
But a school having a register of vax status and being required to only employ vaxed staff is somehow a sanction on the teacher who gets dismissed for not being vaxed.
"So, basically, if a work-place were required to have an up to date register of vax status, and someone wasn't up to snuff, then that person working onsite would be a safety violation and the employer could be charged – that's not a sanction on the staff member fired because they can't do their job safely."
They wouldn’t necessarily be a safety violation or risk. It would be up to the employer to take all reasonable steps to ensure any risk was managed, minimised, mitigated, just as they have been doing. So by all means, keep a register, but don't sack workers who aren't vaccinated. Particularly in a profession with critical staff shortages.
consider this. If we were all more honest in this debate, more people might get vaccinated.
Your sophistry here makes sense for people that have your beliefs, but those aren't the people who are hesitant about the vaccine.
Being real about the degree of pressure doesn't hurt us, it makes things better. Yes, we are mandating (forcing people to choose between their job and being vaxxed, for the good of others), because this is one of our few ways to avoid a really big disaster for NZ.
Dancing around that by pretending there's no coercion will just set off hesitant people's bullshit detectors at a time when many are already concerned about being lied to and losing control of something that's very important to them.
Mate, we keep hazard registers to identify hazards and demonstrate that we have isolated, minimised, or eliminated them.
The preferred resolution is eliminate. No more hazard.
In the case of staff who present a chronic safety hazard that cannot be isolated or minimised reasonably, that means firing them (after giving them reasonable instruction and support to stop being a hazard, which they reject).
Just like you would a truck driver who turns out to be an alcoholic. They can't safely perform their role.
why would anyone keep a meaningless register? "Oh, this is the guy who spread all that disease. We have their name in a register, it's ok".
"The preferred resolution is eliminate. No more hazard."
But that isn't always possible, which is why we manage those hazards.
"In the case of staff who present a chronic safety hazard that cannot be isolated or minimised reasonably, that means firing them (after giving them reasonable instruction and support to stop being a hazard, which they reject)."
But this can be minimised reasonably. We could introduce regular testing (saliva/rapid antigen). Unvaccinated teachers could wear masks. There are alternatives to losing scarce teaching reseource.
Dancing around that by pretending there's no coercion will just set off hesitant people's bullshit detectors at a time when many are already concerned about being lied to and losing control of something that's very important to them.
Oh, so that's what sets off their bullshit detectors, huh.
Not the idea that Ardern was responding to the claim of literal forced vaccinations – full Billy TK shit – and now that is being conflated with "you can't sit in a room with thirty kids if you're going to give them an infectious disease, find something else to do with your stupidity".
But this can be minimised reasonably. We could introduce regular testing (saliva/rapid antigen). Unvaccinated teachers could wear masks. There are alternatives to losing scarce teaching reseource.
Testing catches it after the fact, and an employer could require full BL4 outfites and still be a fool to trust an antivaxxer to use them diligently. Only sure way is to get rid of them.
Oh, so that's what sets off their bullshit detectors, huh.
Not the idea that Ardern was responding to the claim of literal forced vaccinations – full Billy TK shit – and now that is being conflated with "you can't sit in a room with thirty kids if you're going to give them an infectious disease, find something else to do with your stupidity".
lol, how many vaccine hesitant people do you actually know? They're not some amorphous BTK loving mass. Some of them are easily as intelligent as you. And they don't like being lied to.
Do you believe that Ardern would never sanction forced vaccinations? Pretty sure I've seen you argue for them pre-covid, as in maybe they're not such a bad idea. Pretty sure that Andre is in favour. You think vax hesitant people trust the left or Ardern on this? You think people who don't trust the government and feel politically homeless and disenfranchised are going to do what you want?
It doesn't matter how righteous you are in your own mind (and you may well be completely right). People are human, and there are things that work and things that don't. I'm suggesting trying honesty.
And yes, I saw the video on twitter, and I don't think Ardern was only talking about strap em down and force 'em, she was also at times talking about mandating vaccines via coercion.
in order to find some common ground here, I'll withdraw the idea that Ardern lied. She was pragmatic at the time, and genuine, but it's also true that she would have know that a time might come when coercion was necessary.
So let's call it a white lie, or just good PR and political nous. The problem is that some people feel lied to, and while you might thing their feelings are irrelevant, we know that many humans will respond better when they get to feel good or met half way or that people are considering their wellbeing. None of that us unreacheable to us now.
In Gypsy's clip, the question was about tax penalties, and Ardern was saying we don't need to do that because historically we get up to around 90%. That was pre-delta.
We might one day get to the level with a disease where literally everyone needs the jab to stop millions dying. In that case, fuck personal choices. We are not going to replay the black death just because some jerk wants to dick about and google their own research. In the 14th century Europe literally didn't know what hit it, today we can diagnose it, sequence it, kill it, and stick its photo on our wall.
The problem is that some people feel lied to, and while you might thing their feelings are irrelevant, we know that many humans will respond better when they get to feel good or met half way or that people are considering their wellbeing. None of that us unreacheable to us now.
The response is binary. They either get vaccinated, or they don't.
haven't seen Gypsy's clip, I'll see if can find the twitter one.
The issue I'm arguing isn't about personal choice, it's about not throwing the human rights baby out with the bathwater, or using authoritarian approaches that make the situation worse.
The response is binary. They either get vaccinated, or they don't.
Ok, I'll take that as you being ok with either authoritarianism, or risking authoritarianism. By which I don't mean personal choice (that's something in your head), I mean that if society wants to keep treating people like shit (the feelings bit, not the vax/unvaxxed bit), then it can take it's chances, but we know how this went in the US and it's unlikely they will get out of that mess in the forseeable future.
''In Gypsy's clip, the question was about tax penalties, and Ardern was saying we don't need to do that because historically we get up to around 90%."
You haven't read the article. The PM's comments were in response to conspiracy theorists claims that people will be forced to get the vaccination. The article goes on to say this:
“But I would say for anyone who doesn’t take up an effective and tested and safe vaccine when it’s available, that will come at a risk to them.” – PM Ardern (22 Sept 2021)
I certainly don't believe they should lose their livelihoods.
Nor I, and happily there's no need. During a global pandemic it may become acceptable to review (on an on-going basis) the personal and societal merits of safe, effective vaccines.
If, after review, 'jab avoidance' still feels like the right choice, then there are many countries crying out for NZ teachers and healthcare workers. Tragically, in some of those countries the current average daily Covid death toll remains north of 100, so please at least consider getting the appropriate jabs before relocating.
We don't know how lucky we are to live in this country.
Ok, I'll take that as you being ok with either authoritarianism, or risking authoritarianism. By which I don't mean personal choice (that's something in your head), I mean that if society wants to keep treating people like shit (the feelings bit, not the vax/unvaxxed bit), then it can take it's chances, but we know how this went in the US and it's unlikely they will get out of that mess in the forseeable future.
It was a simple statement of fact. Individuals either get the damned jab, or don't.
We get up to a level where ICUs aren't overloaded and deaths are rare, or we get fucked and thousands die.
If you want to hold their hand and take them down to big pharma to buy the prophylactic of their choice, and try and explain to them why the horse tablets are an imbecilic option, go ahead.
We don't have time, and we don't have the resources.
Like the PM was, I'm still reasonably confident that we won't need authoritarian measures to get to a level of community protection. But making sure that key network nodes who have many "edges" (close contacts, like teachers with students, colleagues and parents) have protection isn't just about population immunity, it's about stopping that particular person almost single-handedly causing a near-uncontrollable outbreak.
Population immunity is a stochastic concept: we don't know which person will protect which other person. But teachers getting vaccinated? We know exactly who that is to protect.
It's an easy choice, imho. I wish all teachers and healthcare workers who chose to make the tough decision to remain vaccine-free well – we can't, alas, wish those who have tragically died from Covid well.
Maybe the excellent Covid health outcomes achieved so far by our government and the team have caused some to lose sight of the millions of lives already lost to the pandemic. It appears to be the view of our government that it can’t effectively enforce the public health measures needed to eliminate or possibly even control this Delta outbreak, so they are enacting other logical and enforcible measures to keep everyone as safe as possible. They can’t please everyone.
If I needed to see a healthcare professional right now and had a choice (all other things being equal) between an unvaccinated and a vaccinated worker, I know which one I'd choose. Keep choice alive!
I made what I consider an informed choice and am fully vaccinated. I respect those who made an informed choice and chose not to. I certainly don't believe they should lose their livelihoods.
When PM Ardern said the government would not apply penalties, and that those choosing not to be vaccinated were placing themselves at risk, the Delta outbreak was but a gleam under Collins’ eyebrow.
Yeah, but I could see back then that if the virus got worse, or we got a more deadly pandemic, that mandating would happen. Ardern could have been honest. It's not like they didn't know about the possibility. She chose the line she chose, because she's a good public communicator and it made sense at the time, but it wasn't her only option.
"Dancing around that by pretending there's no coercion will just set off hesitant people's bullshit detectors at a time when many are already concerned about being lied to and losing control of something that's very important to them."
Exactly. The PM has clearly either lied to or mislead teachers and front line customs workers. Anti-vaxxers are lying to people. But this mandating everything in sight is raising hackles and it is just so totally counter-productive.
Just said to McFlock that I'd stop calling it lying, in the interests of common ground. Ardern was being politically pragmatic. The problem is people feel like she lied. This is why I think honesty rather than ostracisation and sophistry would be a better move right now. We really need to be calling people in.
one of the options with mandating is to mandate and help people find other jobs if they don't want to vax. Isn't that what Labour is all about?
"one of the options with mandating is to mandate and help people find other jobs if they don't want to vax."
Honestly, I'm not comfortable with that either. The ECE sector is desperately short of teachers. And if Covid is in the community, children are just as likely to catch it on play dates etc as from a teacher, particularly if sound precautions are taken.
if a child spends one hour with an infected play mate, and one hour with an infected teacher, their risk is increased than if they spent one hour with only one of them. Even if we don’t think the child is at risk, the health system still is and in turn other people.
As for shortages, I believe that covid is the starting point of rolling crises over the next hundred years. Climate and ecology crisis are lapping around our feet. We have to learn to adapt, and the idea that societal institutions and services will remain unchanged is dangerous. Not that I expect Labour to be planning around this (yet), but I do think people need to be thinking about changes, including ones induced by shortages, and figure out how to make things better within the limitations.
"if a child spends one hour with an infected play mate, and one hour with an infected teacher, their risk is increased than if they spent one hour with only one of them. Even if we don’t think the child is at risk, the health system still is and in turn other people."
I get all of that, but those 'if's' don't take into account other measures.
The ECE centre where I spend most of my time had a positive case recently. A child. I was a close contact, as were at least 30 other children and their parents (we had had a farewell event for one of the staff). Even though that was very early in the Delta outbreak, the centre was already exercising good practices, and despite none of the teachers being vaccinated at that stage no-one else caught covid from that child. The greatest risk to children is likely to come from parents and other contacts.
I don't really get this. Surely the point is to eleminate as many risks, not just the greatest. If risks are 50%, 10%, 5%, 15%, 30%, don't we want to do the smaller risks as well as the biggest?
Just BTW – I have just been sent a clip that is circulating on social media. The clip is of both the PM, Chris Hipkins and Ashley Bloomfield stating categorically that vaccinations will not be made compulsory. The PM is specifically asked about the 'no-jab no-job' policy in Australia, and she specifically replies that her government are not looking at that, that she she believes in vaccination, but "not mandatory". There is also a picture of a Covid-19 promotional ad that reads "you cannot be forced to get vaccinated'. It really isn't a good look.
Yep, it is a bad look, this one will come back to bite them. From memory, the wording was different at different times. But I understood at the time the situation could change. Didn't think it would be this soon mind.
"Surely the point is to eleminate as many risks, not just the greatest."
Of course, but there are balances. For example a business doesn't fire people because there is a chance of an accident. They manage, minimise and mitigate. In the tame way The jab doesn't eliminate all risk of catching covid; it is a mitigation, a way of minimising (not eliminating) risk.
When some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well. Should they be in the job?
“Never have I seen
Never have I seen so many teachers leading by example and protecting the children in their classes from long covid and possibly even death whilst a small minority are so selfish about their freedom to infect the kids. They should never have been teachers in the first place.
Never had I seen so many health workers protect patients, themselves and their colleagues from infection while working like heroes on the front lines while illiterate morons protest their freedom and make the life of health workers more dangerous and stressful”.
Research on belief in conspiracy theories might help understand why "some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well."
Recent work from Australia (my bold) –
"Results of the current study indicate that individuals who have odd beliefs/magical thinking, and who are strategic, manipulative, dominant, and callous are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. Given the possibility for these beliefs to shape real world behaviour, and the possibility for this behaviour to have damaging social and civic consequences, it is imperative research continues to establish predictors of these beliefs so reliable methods to challenge and negate these erroneous beliefs can be established."
When some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well. Should they be in the job?
There's a real problem in this line. You believe it is harmless, other people don't. Your argument is predicated on people accepting your beliefs and abandoning their own. How do you think that's going to work out, especially under financial and career duress?
Instead, we could be saying that the risk from the vaccine is low and the risk is worth taking because covid the illness in individuals and society has much worse outcomes and is much more likely to happen.
I don't "believe it is harmless". I know for a fact, vaccines are almost harmless, supported by a huge amount of evidence.
Opinions/beliefs and facts, are two different things.
That vaccination is almost 100% safe, is a fact. Determined by the results of trials and research involving millions of people.
Nothing is 100% safe, of course.
Covid, of course, is several orders of magnitude more harmful.
“instead, we could be saying that the risk from the vaccine is low and the risk is worth taking because covid the illness in individuals and society has much worse outcomes and is much more likely to happen”
That is a fair point. But lets face it Brazil handled it shittely.
I think the govt did it right now at the time. But have to say personally I thought at the time it would have been easier and cheaper to the whole country if we went for shielding the vulnerable rather than restricting them and everyone else (Which is the vast majority(.
All in all reckon at the beginning they did really well. But geezes there is no reason for the Sth Island to be at level 2 now with a properly controlled and the cook strait.
And the vagueness of stuff is silly.
Give me Arden 2020. Because the 2021 one is a bit scattery
Well, down here another person was in the paper today claiming they didn't break the rules by travelling to SI from Auckland. And a chap got tested after his Northland trip.
There are more than a million people in L3, and another couple mill in L2 in the North Island. Even essential travel is likely to spread some cases down here while daily rates are this high.
I'm involved with a local theatre in Dunedin, and operationally we're fucked badly even under L2. Sustained negative cashflow is a worrying thing, for sure.
But waiting until we have detected cases before limiting the ability of those cases to spread is like waiting until you have covid before getting the jab, or waiting until you're about to be in an accident before putting your seatbelt on. There's a good chance you'll be too late to get the effect.
The sooner we stop this crazy "vaccinate to protect others" nonsense, rather than "vaccinate for your own health" the better imo.
Yes, vaccinating mostly healthy adults in order to protect the part of the population with the best immunity and who will be least affected, is as stupid as it sounds.
"When some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well. Should they be in the job?"
Yes, this is where I think the debate should be. I'd like to hear the views of the people who are avoiding vaccinations on this point. We hear their views on anything but this, and I doubt we'll get anywhere until we do know what they think about the rights of the kid with asthma, or the one with the mum who is sick, or the one whose dad is worn out from his work in the hospital looking after covid patients.
Fran, think back over our history and look at the special powers that governments have had in the past, especially in war time, and never got used then or since. There have always been emergency powers. There have always been courts. There have always been elections. WE have had epidemics, wars, depressions, emergencies in the past.
You ask the question- what rights will we as citizens be left with?
One only should suffice- universal suffrage.
We don't like what has happened, we vote them out. The laws get changed, the regulations revoked,
There is one interesting question for me, though. What changes, what attitudinal shift, what social mores will alter after the pandemic?
How will it affect our group thinking, since we have all faced a common enemy and seen our interdependence on each other, rich or poor, whatever suburb we live in (David Seymour take note).
We may see that inequity threarens us all and come to see that a fairer society is a safer society as well.
Surely yr enthusiasm for just needing a vote is a little naive or misguided.
Lobbyists acting for interests with deep pockets shoots that 'one person one vote' to smithereens.
I didn't vote for compulsory medication last election.
As to the future relationships I would love to buy your narrative but I don't see it. My son's 19 yr old girlfriend works in retail. The middle class are not shy of demanding to know her vaccination status half a dozen times a day.
Hopefully she is wearing a mask and that her employer has plans in place to encourage the uptake of the vaccination. I think, as a bare minimum, public facing people in shops etc should be vaccinated but if not at least wear masks.
I believe that there is a selling point of having a completely vaxxed staff, if allowed under HR legislation. Retail needs us and many will go to those places that are mask wearing and/or vaxxed.
I didn't vote for compulsory medication last election.
Neither did I. I also did not know that we were going to have the different /difficult to deal with Delta variant.
I also don't buy the middle class stuff. We should not allow the uptake of the vaccination and the positivity of wearing a mask to be side tracked by this.
I would go a little further than universal suffrage. Universal suffrage with MMP as a voting system as the minimum, although recognising that our first govt could bring in Human Rights legislation after an election.
gsays, one question. If as you say, "Lobbyists acting for interests with deep pockets shoots that 'one person one vote' to smithereens," why did you vote?
Sounds like an exercise in futility to this 'naive and misguided' person……..
I go a little further. I vote, I criticize, I joined a party 50 years ago to create policy, I even stood for parliament twice. Now that might be seen as 'naive and misguided'. As Voltaire once pronounced, on another activity it must be added, "Once is philosophy, but twice is perversion."
For all those people who complain that the government has got no real power, and for all those people who say that the government has got too much power- well, at least one side has got it wrong.
If there is no real power in government, then why does the Right contest so hard. Surely they'd just leave it all to their "deep pockets"?
Clearly there is power in government, witness mandated vaccines.
There also has to be power in lobbyists and vested interests. Fishing boats and their disgraceful practices. There has been opposition to cameras on boats for years and it hasn't come from the electorate.
Sincerely, well done on standing for parliament, more courage of yr convictions than I. I stood unsuccessfully for BOT of our local school. Too much of a fragile ego to do that again.
Nandor Tanzcos (I think) observed he was more influential out of parliament than in it.
Thanks, gsays. My friends said I was better off out of it. But the experience of standing was mostly satisfying- even the nutters were entertaining. But even then, before the decade of dirty politics, there were serious lies of a personal nature. One of the nicer ones was that I had two drug convictions…… (Two sounds far more convincing than one!)
mac 1 there were terrible lies put out by a group. Some ended up in court. Sadly those who do this at arms length but overlooked revealing photos of them with these people became known. Cheers, we definitely need those who stand for public service regardless of the pitfalls.
I think the focus is in the wrong place here. When this pandemic ends what rights will we as citizens be left with?
FFS. What's with all this crazy hysterical nonsense?
When the pandemic ends all our normal rights will be resumed. If you think otherwise, you're living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. As it stands the lives of people are at serious risk – including your life Fran – and that must take precedence over all else.
If you and others can't see that then I suggest you go see a head-shrink.
NZ was this close to removing privacy rights from a whole class of people before the last election. It boggles my mind that lefties haven't seen the erosion of rights in the last 40 years. They're being chipped away at. The issue here isn't whether the laws now are needed (they are), it's the cultural shifts happening that will mean more laws like this will be passed more easily as we go along. We've seen this since 9/11 in particular.
A specific example here: the covid app data won't be used for non-covid things. This is policy, the protection isn't written into law. You might trust Labour on this, I sure as hell don't trust NACT (being part of the class they were trying to remove rights from). Why won't Labour put the protection in law?
It often does, though. EG Britain during WW2 vs 1955, and the restrictions around the aforementioned Spanish Flu.
The funny thing is the debates about masks and lockdowns are almost identical between the latter and now, and they didn't have vaccines or testing or ventilators.
FB took away privacy rights, so the left can give away even more, this time to the state? Are you really arguing that? Do you know what National were doing before the 2017 election?
C'mon ref, where have you been the last year?. There has been lots of name calling and slurs that have gone uncommented upon. Not against your team perhaps?
I am really surprised how much this has shaken me, so may have to be forgiven the occasional outburst.
Imagine though, instead of being the leader in front of a class of kids they can spend their time at home.
They can then be an oracle to the whole world on online forums. Ironically, that would automatically put them in the position of being an expert at education and schooling.
My 2 cents : I'm getting tired of all the anti vax rubbish and being locked down too. I have been and am under treatment of a world leading and renowned Professer of Medicine. Ive trialed experimental drugs for him and now enjoy the cure; along with millions of others, his work bought about. Hes not tied to big Pharma, in the early days he sent me along to a herbalist to help with the effects of my disease. He recommends the vaccine and I'll take his advice before any body elses reckons. Get vaccinated.
As an aside for anyone putting it off because of fear of needles just think of how many more jabs you'll be getting if you get the virus.
This whole situation is about trust. Well done Bruce, many happy returns of the years.
We have a caring Government and this latest meme of 'loss of rights" is silly.
In this situation planning is ongoing and must to try to overcome huge difficulties. In these circumstances vaccine is required. If the member chooses against it ok. No-one will force them.
I have a background in patient rights and alternative health communities. There are many people who have been harmed by mainstream medicine. The issue here isn't that msm is safe (there are always risks with medications and vaccines), it's how to help people make good risk assessments. Telling people to ignore their own experience and knowledge base and follow yours is just not going to work.
Hi Weka, I apologise if my plea to get vaccinated came across as a bit bossy. I must admit I was annoyed when i posted having just read a plea to do the opposite based on mere reckons. I had hoped by sharing my experience from a reputable source may help others make good risk assessments.
Many many many more people have been helped by mainstream medicine. As Elvis Costello says 'Accidents will Happen.' As long as the aim is true
I would be interested in the results of anyone who has tried muscle testing (reflexology) the vaccine. And I feel healing energy, prana, orgone or similar is of little use when the tiger ( virus ) is chewing of your arm.
So for me the vaccine provides a solution but for it to work everyone must be on board and I feel sharing my experience can help with that.
It does seem that people who have a lot of faith in msm are helped by that belief. I suspect there is some strong placebo in addition to the RCT style processes around drugs and other treatments. This isn't me dissing msm, I think that's all a good thing. I'm glad for you that it's worked really well for you, I know msm kept my father alive for many more years than he would have otherwise.
Thing is though, the people who are harmed, are a crossover with those who are vax hesitant. They know the short comings of msms, and telling them the vaccine is harmless or that we should just trust the scientists and doctors doesn't work for similar reasons as to why muscle testing or chi kung wouldn't work for you. You have to meet people where they are. Many people at the moment seem to believe that forcing their beliefs on others will yield good results, but when has that every worked out well?
I agree that we need as many people on board with the vaccine as possible if we want to prevent disaster in NZ. The argument is about how we do that, get as many people on board as possible. Ostracisation, meanness, ridicule, force, sophistry and fudging the truth are not the best approaches if we want a high vax rate.
btw, afaik muscle testing has no empirical support (but it's maybe still a useful tool in some individual settings). Energy work like chi kung I think would be an excellent adjunct to getting vaccinated, and might help some of the hesitant people get on board. Would love to know if China and other Asian countries are integrating those methods. I know the Chinese have been doing work on TCM and herbal medicine alongside msm in treating covid infections.
Good that they have now located the second woman that travelled up North. And it sounds like she has Covid symptoms. It's interesting that neither have been named like the Wanaka couple, as she may have been located sooner if public knew who it was.
I hope they are charged in some way as they have caused so much damage to Northland.
I’m guessing they will be charged with something, but that name suppression will be granted, possibly permanently, by da judge, in view of the vitriol (and possibly other things) both individuals would likely have hurled at them if their identities were revealed.
And the hype around them was ridiculous and totally out of proportion, given no one seems to give a toss about some of the other antics people are getting up to.
I agree though, that antics like Collins running around Queenstown unmasked, when she was from Auckland, for no good reason, should have caused more attention.
Siouxsie Wiles? How she spells Suzy might be stupid, but her hair isn’t. Done more to boost her public image than anything else, imo. And she didn’t break the rules, her friend did, IIRC?
Raining quite heavily; looks like it’ll be a pluvial day. Stream’s up a foot or two and flooding dirty brown. No eel feeding today. https://vimeo.com/292619749
I very rarely needed to mow my lawns when the pooks visited my back yard several times a day. They liked trimming & eating the grass.
Altho the younger ones, once they learned how to fly up onto the fence & down again onto my lawn, invariably had to be shrieked at quite a few times "No! No pulling out grass! Just trimming". It often took up to a fortnight of daily doing my block at newbies to get them to learn that "shearing" the grass was ok, but pulling out clumps of it was definitely NOT!
Do you have any fruit trees on your lawn? And if you have, do you get any of it? I got very over pukekos when living next to them. We had a flock of around 100 living in the paddocks around our house. We get more fruit from the 5 fruit trees we have now where we live than from the 30 trees we had on the farm.
I’m fortunate that that apart from their visits to my back yard they basically live in the stream & on the stream banks, & spend most of their day foraging up & down the stream. There’s plenty of kai, & lotsa variety, for them there.
All they were getting at my place was “treats” of wheat grains, & Molenberg bread chunks (so I could enjoy watching them eat bread holding it in their “hands” – i.e. with their long, very dextrous talons).
Oh dear. You have been reading one of Geoffrey Palmer's books haven't you? He was, of course, the man who described his homeland as "New Zealand is an irreducably pluvial country.".
Now you are using that word, just to show how literate you are I suspect.
I suspect Gezza has come across that word just as I did. As children we learned the word pluvial very early on as events that my Dad organised, A & P shows and Racing days had to have pluvial insurance. We always lost the low table in our bedroom at the time of the A & P show as judges used it to stand the dogs on for judging.
And of course Geoffrey Palmer's use is a delight.
Those who seem to delight in putting others down or damning with faint praise, as far as language is concerned always remind me of the quote from Issac Asimov
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
I wasn't meaning to disparage Gezza. However, reading the last sentence I wrote I can see how it can come across that way. To Gezza – I apologise.
I have a rather similar memory about A & P shows. I had an Uncle who used to come and judge livestock at the local show. He would come and stay with my family and I would lose my bed for a couple of nights. Not quite the same as having your table take pride of place during the judging of course.
That was a long time ago of course. Now the farmers don't go any more and the Show is really just for the townies.
Yes indeed with the visitors. We always had to give our visitors our bed/s or topped and tailed.
A couple of years ago I dropped my cousin aged 72 at the time, at her daughters place to stay overnight. I was amazed when I picked her up the next day, to find that her daughter had put her mother on a mattress on the floor so she did not have to move any of the three children 9,8 5 from their beds. I was gob-smacked.
A & P shows still do have an attraction for rural folk in the smaller places. I agree that those within striking distance of a city or larger town the 'townies' do go.
Didn't the Propeller-Head say something similar as PM when 'comforting' flood victims c1990 … something like: "But what none of you seem to understand is that New Zealand is, by its very nature, a highly pluvial Country" … in the process highlighting just how conspicuously he lacked the common touch ?
[Note: maybe it was as Deputy PM during Cyclone Bola 1988 ?]
Excitedly playing his trumpet as he pranced around the outer ring of the top floor of the Beehive in a very early Ep of Holmes, euphorically anticipating the arrival of his hero, clarinettist Acker Bilk, didn’t help his populist image any either … I remember just shaking my head as I watched … worth 50k votes to Bolger-Richardson.
One of the advantages of my 34 years in the Public Service was that I was able to move around a lot, filling a number of roles, nearly all of which involved a great deal of writing, but in various different styles, from very formal English, to quasi-legal writing, to semi-technical IT user requirements, to policy manuals, to very plain, easily understandable English in forms & leaflets where the onus was on simplicity & accuracy.
Even today I find it relatively easy to adapt my writing & speaking styles to suit a particular audience or individual, if I can be bothered to put a bit of effort in. But I can also be damned lazy about it when I’m not being paid.
Regarding MIQ and the selfish few who wish to jump the queue, I should think everyone would have a story to say why they should get back.
I don't think the lottery model is good however, perhaps it should be more like going for a blood test, get a number and wait till you become head of the queue
I'll probably be rolling my eyes at the vegan propaganda side of this, but otherwise it looks exciting, feature length doco on the NZ dairy industry, with some heavy hitting names backing it. Not sure when it's being released.
It's been released. Didn't notice vegan propaganda. It's about the dairy industry as it says. I saw it as a 5 or so part series. Cant remember who ran it tho. Maybe Prime
My Latin teacher was nicknamed Cabbage. He was an arrogant, sarcastic bastard & we loathed each other. I dropped Latin for 6th Form History as soon as I could.
He also taught us the English word perambulate … to walk or travel through or round a place or area, especially for pleasure and in a leisurely way.
From the Latin per … all over, & ambulare … to walk.
That puts to my mind a story a cop told me once, about a witness in a trial. The witness had limited English skill, not so much that a translator was needed but still learning the second language. Anyway, the prosecution asks the witness to describe the incident, and the witness talks about how he was "proceeding down this street" and "proceeded to see" yadda yadda yadda.
The use of the word "proceeding" in a repeated manner raised a few eyebrows, so the defense almost immediately begins cross examination with the word, asking him about whether the witness normally uses it. Even the cop was beginning to second guess whether someone had coached the witness.
"My English language class is on Monday nights, and I use the new words as much as possible. We learnt 'proceeding' this week". lol
Ouch. If this follows Northern Hemisphere patterns, we may well be swept with Antarctic cool while the Antarctic warms. And a whole lot of muppets will say, "How can the planet possible be warming??"
Oh look we have a surplus again! Virtual surplus, based on the gains of government properties, but hey, surely the bank will loan on that equity right? Or maybe we already have buyers?
This reminds me of a day in 1997, when then Finance Minister Theo Waigel of Germany re-evaluated the Gold reserves held by hte German Government to qualify Germany for European economic and monetary union. Suddenly all the criteria was met, and well the rest is history. Lol
Treasury prefers it that way. Please keep focusing on the bottom line. Please also ignore the $10 billion (over 6 months) forecasting error. Additionally please don't understand that if the govt had spent an additional 10 billion in the last 6 months treasury already vetted the impacts of that on other economic variables as being fine. And for heavens sake do not realise that an eventual surplus of $N involves those $N being paid out of NZers savings and debt levels.
This may have been covered here before (there's a lot to read on all the Open Mikes!) but anyway, it's worth a repeat.
A quick and easy game (less than 5 mins) where you get to make all the Covid decisions in government (h/t Newshub). And then you have to deal with the consequences … Link here:
It's unduly pessimistic on the numbers IMO, but never mind. It's a useful reminder that every option, from full opening up to tanks on the streets, would have repercussions. A few commentators should try it and test their empty reckons.
Happy to report that as PM I got the R number right down and saved the country. Unfortunately this cost me my job …
Aside from “not being Judith” what has Labour achieved since coming to power?
Journey back with me to 2017- a bright eyed Jacinda made her first promise as leader of the Labour party to bring light rail from the CBD to the Airport by 2021. Now I just checked my calendar and we have 81 days left until 2021 comes to an end. Last time I checked 0.00 metres of track have been laid. The workers are going to have to pull out a few big shifts to accomplish this promise!
Diving deeper into the 2017 manifesto quickly over my morning cup of tea…
Nurses in all high schools … last time I checked (and I do have an OIA request in to get the official number) this wasn’t started?
Kiwibuild – remember the good old days of Kiwibuild? Promise of 1,000 homes built in the first year increasing to 5,000 built in 2019 and then the lofty goal of 10,000 per year from 2020. Grand total we should be at based on just these numbers- 26K by the end of this year. Last number report = 1,169 as at August 2021. The positive here is that they have ticked off the first years goal… over three years in…
Skypath (no not a new Bond movie…)- another great promise from 2017 where we were going to get a bike and pedestrian crossing for (what now seems like a bargain price) $30M. Fast forward to 2021 and we have no progress but have spent over $50M on another version of the crossing that has been put on the scrap heap! Clap. Clap.
Remember the great headline generating quote that tackling climate change was “my generation's nuclear-free moment." Plaudits flowed around the world. Then reality struck- this year we imported more coal for power generation than any year previous. It is purely a coincidence that Megan woods basically closed down the natural oil and gas industry in NZ overnight back in 2018.
Lucky we have a Government with a strong track record on prudent spending to see us through this massive amount of debt we’ve taken on to get the country through COVID though right? Right? They only spend money on quality projects such as funding a series of collaborative quilts for Jess Jonhson and her Mother… sure it is only $17,850 right? Noting that someone on $80K per year would pay $17K in income tax so basically paid tax the entire year for Jess to make some quilts with her Mum… very nice.
So – the end of my rant… National is a shambles, we get that. But is this really what you want to support? Aside from slogans about kindness and team of five million… what has Jacinda and Labour achieved? What will their legacy be? And when Jacinda moves on… who is actually there to take up the leadership?
The two main parties in NZ politics have shown us they can achieve… nothing. What can the alternative be?
Sounds like you've bought into talking points from the taxpayers' onion.
Labour have fallen short in various areas, but if you want a serious debate you'll need better lines than somehow linking NZ's low debt with Jess Johnson.
Cancelled National Parties tax bracket moves and increased Working for Families and Accommodation Supplements substantially
Added a new tax bracket for the very high income earners
Bright line test extended
Property losses ringfenced
Property interest deduction reduced
Overseas investment in property mostly banned
Increased benefit rates by the most seen in a generation (still work to do of course)
Indexed benefits to average wage increases rather than CPI
Introduced Winter Energy Payment
Free lunches in schools
Increased Student Allowances
Fees free scheme (1st year at tertiary institutes, free apprenticeships)
Restored adult night class funding
Kainga Ora building more than 2,000 houses/year
Improved tenancy legislation by eliminating no-fault terminations by landlords
Credit contract reform
Increased minimum wage to $20
Extended paid parental leave to 26 weeks (from 18)
Increased sick leave to 10 days p.a.
Matariki
Improved Employment Relations Act – union delegates now specifically protected, collective agreements must include pay, 90 day trial removed for medium and large employers, breaks reinstated
Pay equity legislation and settlements e.g. social workers, admin workers, teacher aides, nurses and ECE teachers coming, others in the pipelines
Feebates for electric cars
Reduction in prisoner numbers by over 15%
Restored voting rights for prisoners with less than 3 year sentences (I think that's a net positive, but acknowledge that others will disagree)
That's some off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others. Still, other than what must be close to the lowest Covid death rate in the world and a negative excess mortality rate, what they done for us lately?
Yes, but what’s happening with the crime rate? This info seems hard to come by.
My “impression” from reporting – and from personal experience of some youth offenders were intimidating shopkeepers & stealing from local dairies, and another group who smashed 5 local car windows trying to steal cars, including mine – is that it’s increasing.
Fair, although the comment points out that there are new family violence offences introduced in Dec 2018 (so by Labour) which has seen an increase in the recording of serious assaults (the new offences were strangulation and assault on a person in a family relationship).
True, Craig. Altho interestingly I found my from that link somehow to a more up to date Police "Snapshot" which picked up that I'm in Wellington & which shows crime stats for Welly are mostly showing increases:
For some people an 'all bets are off the table' while we deal with Covid approach to govt is what they are focussing on. Kudos for them will come based on that.
For many the idea of looking at a 2017 manifesto will seem a delightful 'those were the days exercise.' Possibly looking at the 2017 manifesto and what was achieved prior to Feb 2020 would be a fairer way of looking at it.
When reading the list from Craig Hall 14.2 I am heartened that other aspects are/have been dealt with and know that work will be ongoing in many govt depts, not linked to the covid response to investigate, and bring up policy matters to Govt. Ministers will still be focussing on ideas/policies in their portfolios.
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Citizen Science writes – Last week saw two significant developments in the debate over the treatment of trans-identifying children and young people – the release in Britain of the final report of Dr Hilary Cass’s review into gender healthcare, and here in New Zealand, the news that the ...
One night while sleeping in my bed I had a beautiful dreamThat all the people of the world got together on the same wavelengthAnd began helping one anotherNow in this dream, universal love was the theme of the dayPeace and understanding and it happened this wayAfter such an eventful day ...
This is a guest post by Oscar Simms who is a housing activist, volunteer for the Coalition for More Homes, and was the Labour Party candidate for Auckland Central at the last election. ...
Turning what Labour called the “holiday highway” into a four-lane expressway from Auckland to Whangarei could bring at least an economic benefit of nearly two billion a year for Northland each year. And it could help bring an end to poverty in one of New Zealand’s most deprived regions. The ...
Tonight’s six-stack includes: launching his substack with a bunch of his previous documentaries, including this 1992 interview with Dame Whina Cooper. and here crew give climate activists plenty to do, including this call to submit against the Fast Track Approvals bill. writes brilliantly here on his substack ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
You're in the mall when you hear it: some kind of popping sound in the distance, kids with fireworks, maybe. But then a moment of eerie stillness is followed by more of the fireworks sound and there’s also screaming and shrieking and now here come people running for their lives.Does ...
Karl du Fresne writes – There’s a crisis in the news media and the media are blaming it on everyone except themselves. Culpability is being deflected elsewhere – mainly to the hapless Minister of Communications, Melissa Lee, and the big social media platforms that are accused of hoovering ...
I don’t normally send out two newsletters in a day but I figured I’d say something about… the news. If two newsletters is a bit much then maybe just skip one, I don’t want to overload people. Alternatively if you’d be interested in sometimes receiving multiple, smaller updates from me, ...
Buzz from the Beehive David Seymour and Winston Peters today signalled that at least two ministers of the Crown might be in Wellington today. Seymour (as Associate Minister of Education) announced the removal of more red tape, this time to make it easier for new early learning services to be ...
Politicians across the political spectrum are implicated in the New Zealand media’s failing health. Either through neglect or incompetent interventions, successive governments have failed to regulate, foster, and allow a healthy Fourth Estate that can adequately hold politicians and the powerful to account. Our political system is suffering from the ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
The Government must commit to the Maitai School building project for students with high and complex needs, to ensure disabled students from the top of the South Island have somewhere to learn. ...
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey and his Government colleagues have made a meal of their mental health commitments, showing how flimsy their efforts to champion the issue truly are, says Labour Mental Health spokesperson Ingrid Leary. ...
Māori are yet to see anything from this Government except cuts, reversals and taking our people backwards, Māori Development spokesperson Willie Jackson said. ...
The Coalition Government’s refusal to commit to ongoing funding for social housing is seeing the sector pull back on developments and families watch their dreams of securing a home fade away, says Labour Housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today paid tribute to Singapore’s outgoing Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. Meeting in Singapore today immediately before Prime Minister Lee announced he was stepping down, Prime Minister Luxon warmly acknowledged his counterpart’s almost twenty years as leader, and the enduring legacy he has left for Singapore and South East ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. While in Singapore as part of his visit to South East Asia this week, Prime Minister Luxon also met with Singapore President Tharman Shanmugaratnam and will meet with Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has made further appointments to the Board of Antarctica New Zealand as part of a continued effort to ensure the Scott Base Redevelopment project is delivered in a cost-effective and efficient manner. The Minister has appointed Neville Harris as a new member of the Board. Mr ...
Finance Minister Nicola Willis will travel to the United States on Tuesday to attend a meeting of the Five Finance Ministers group, with counterparts from Australia, the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom. “I am looking forward to meeting with our Five Finance partners on how we can work ...
The coalition Government has today announced purrfect and pawsitive changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to give tenants with pets greater choice when looking for a rental property, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Pets are important members of many Kiwi families. It’s estimated that around 64 per cent of New ...
State Highway 1 (SH1) through Wellington City is heavily congested at peak times and while planning continues on the duplicate Mt Victoria Tunnel and Basin Reserve project, the Government has also asked NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) to consider and provide advice on a Long Tunnel option, Transport Minister Simeon Brown ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Foreign Minister Winston Peters have condemned Iran’s shocking and illegal strikes against Israel. “These attacks are a major challenge to peace and stability in a region already under enormous pressure," Mr Luxon says. "We are deeply concerned that miscalculation on any side could ...
Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board. “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti. “I have asked her to ...
The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States. “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
The Fast-track Bill, if passed, would allow three Ministers, unchallenged and unchecked, to approve the immediate extraction and exhaustion of one-off resources. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne iamharin/Shutterstock For many people, the term “bulk billed” refers to a GP visit they don’t have to pay ...
Emmas Hislop, Sidnam and Wehipeihana discuss what’s in a name. Emma Sidnam: Hello Emmas! Thank you so much for agreeing to do this with me. My first question for you is related to what’s been on my mind for a while. It’s very important. You see we’ve recently had some ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Sievers, Research Fellow, Global Wetlands Project, Australia Rivers Institute, Griffith University Chris Brown Humans love the coast. But we love it to death, so much so we’ve destroyed valuable coastal habitat – in the case of some types of habitat, ...
Josh Thomson on the 80s milk ad jingle he can’t stop singing, the beauty of The Simpsons, why Jersey Shore is as good as Shakespeare and more. For someone who spends a lot of time on our screens, popping up in everything from 7 Days to Taskmaster, Educators to Good ...
In apparent defiance of the Biden administration, the Netanyahu government has now initiated missile strikes against Iran. Last Saturday night (Sunday morning in New Zealand) Iran launched more than 300 drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles against Israeli military targets. With the assistance of US, UK and possibly French forces, ...
Māori representation brings a perspective that encompasses not only the interests of Māori communities but also a broader, holistic approach to environmental stewardship and community well-being, principles deeply embedded in Te Ao Māori (the Māori ...
This week in Auckland, a group of young people took over the microphone at a ministerial press conference, to explain why they oppose the Fast-Track Approvals Bill. One young woman said, ‘We’re here because we love Aotearoa New Zealand. We want to raise our children in an environment that’s thriving, ...
The summer was wonderful. Evie was wonderful, too; finally a teenager, finally worthy of long, hot days. She shaved her legs for the first time and bought cut-off shorts from the op-shop that made them look long. She got a Warehouse singlet so tight on her new shape that her ...
When Thomas James was on his solo camp as part of Outward Bound, the keen outdoorsman didn’t find it too challenging, as others often do. In what might just be the perfect illustration of his character, he saw it as a great opportunity to solve a few problems. “I thought, ...
From the unstable and drippy to the hi-tech and pretty, here’s our ranking of all the tunnels you can drive through in this country. The first tunnel seems to have been built in 2200BC in Babylonia, kicking off a global phenomenon for digging holes in order to get places more ...
Lucinda Bennett on the art of being greedy but resourceful. This is an excerpt from our weekly food newsletter, The Boil Up. When I picture the market, it is always this time of year. Crisp air, dripping nose, counting coins with cold fingers. Sunlight pale, filtered through specks of dew still ...
Zoë Colling’s favourite piece in the ‘That’s So Last Century’ collection is a lubrication chart for a sewing machine from the ’60s. It’s about the size of a postcard, and carefully maintained. “I like it that this piece of ephemera highlights that manual and technical side of the skill involved ...
Kia Ora Gaza A passionate haka reverberated through Auckland International Airport as a medical team of three New Zealand doctors received an emotional farewell from a big crowd of supporters before flying to Turkey to join the international Freedom Flotilla to Gaza. The doctors, who left Auckland yesterday, hope to ...
With submissions closing today, Macassey-Pickard says groups around the country have been supporting a huge range of people to make their submissions. ...
Our response to the new legislation is informed by targeted conversations with practitioners working in the system and through an implementation lens. ...
The new ‘Fast-track Approvals Bill’ would give just three Ministers the power to approve or deny development projects. They would avoid the usual checks and balances that are in place to protect rivers, land, the ocean, and communities. ...
COMMENTARY:By Eugene Doyle Helen Clark, how I miss you. The former New Zealand Prime Minister — the safest pair of hands this country has had in living memory — gave a masterclass on the importance of maintaining an independent foreign policy when she spoke at an AUKUS symposium held ...
The government's released the list of organisations provided with information on how to apply - just hours before public submissions on the bill close. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Milton Speer, Visiting Fellow, School of Mathematical and Physical Sciences, University of Technology Sydney Before climate change really got going, eastern Australia’s flash floods tended to concentrate on our coastal regions, east of the Great Dividing Range. But that’s changing. Now ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elizabeth Finkel, Vice-Chancellor’s Fellow, La Trobe University Sia Duff / South Australian Museum In February, the South Australian Museum “re-imagined” itself. In the face of rising costs and inadequate government funds, CEO David Gaimster, who took the reins last June, declared ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alan Pearce, Professor, School of Allied Heath, Human Services & Sport, La Trobe University, La Trobe University This week, Collingwood AFL player Nathan Murphy announced his retirement, brought on by his concussion history and ongoing issues. The 24-year-old’s seemingly sudden retirement, ...
The Mental Health Foundation provides support and resources for those facing the loss of their job, so it’s wrong in the very week the Government adds another 1000 jobs to its tally of cuts, that this is happening. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexander Howard, Senior Lecturer, Discipline of English and Writing, University of Sydney Daniel Boud/Sydney Theatre Company Decay, terror, revulsion. These are three of the central themes of Thomas Bernhard’s rarely performed play The President. The Austrian is one of the greatest ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ye In (Jane) Hwang, Postdoctoral Research Associate at School of Population Health, UNSW Sydney Shutterstock You’d be hard pressed to find any aspect of daily life that doesn’t require some form of digital literacy. We need only to look back ten ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says threats by ministers Shane Jones and David Seymour to reform or close down the Waitangi Tribunal were “ill-considered”, as legal experts say the ministers may have breached Cabinet Manual conventions. “I think those comments are ill-considered and we expect all ministers to actually exercise good ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rob Newton, Professor of Exercise Medicine, Edith Cowan University Pexels/RDNE stock project You’re not in your 20s or 30s anymore and you know regular health checks are important. So you go to your GP. During the appointment they measure your waist. ...
A new poem by Evangeline Riddiford Graham. Mitochondrial Problem I. It was long drive to Kansas for the man and his dog but you have to understand he said She doesn’t fly. Which calls to mind not carsick shitting barking or whining but a dog who chooses not to as ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Hemingway’s Goblet by Dermot Ross (Mary Egan Publishing, $38)Hot off the press, this debut ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Wajnryb McDonald, PhD candidate in Criminology, University of Sydney Less than 24 hours after Ashlee Good was murdered in Bondi Junction, her family released a statement requesting the media take down photographs they had reproduced of Ashlee and her family without ...
Chief executive Shaun Robinson said it has not had any government funding cut, but government-funded contracts have not kept pace with rising costs. ...
The Ministry of Health has delayed the release of its evidence brief on the safety, reversibility and mental health and wellbeing outcomes for puberty blockers. While we wait, Julia de Bres speaks to those with firsthand experience. Best practice gender-affirming healthcare is based on trans people’s self-determination and agency. The ...
Barcelona’s city streets have gone from traffic-clogged to pedestrian-friendly. How? Superblocks. Ellen Rykers explains. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week I read a great interview with renowned urbanist Janette Sadik-Khan by The Spinoff’s Wellington editor Joel MacManus: “You can reimagine streets, ...
Student groups ‘Climate Action VUW’, Schools Strike 4 Climate and VUWSA will be on the street in Wellington today, the last day for submissions on the Fast-track Approvals Bill, with a message that the fight against the Government’s ‘War on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sofia Ammassari, Research Fellow, Griffith University Since 2014, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s popularity has grown exponentially – and so has the formidable organisational machine of his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). These two factors will be key to delivering the BJP a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brendon Hyndman, Associate Professor of Education (Adjunct) & Senior Manager (BCE), Charles Sturt University During COVID almost all Australian students and their families experienced online learning. But while schools have long since gone back to in-person teaching, online learning has not gone ...
Yes, they’re better for the environment. No, that’s not a good enough reason for me to use them. Once every 26 days or so, my period arrives, and if struck by an act of God, I am caught red-crotched without products. How, after 17 years of this, do I still ...
“It will cause significant harm to our environment and communities. It is completely at odds with New Zealanders’ relationship with nature and our need for a low-carbon, sustainable economic future." ...
The Chair of the National Maori Authority, Matthew Tukaki, has warned a Parliamentary Select Committee that fast-tracking legislation is a perilous practice that undermines the core tenets of democracy, transparency, and accountability. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Tenbensel, Associate Professor, Health Policy, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Getty Images Since coming into power, the coalition government has adopted a simple but shrewd see-how-fast-we-can-move political strategy. However, in the health sector this need for speed entails ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anastasia Hronis, Clinical Psychologist, University of Technology Sydney Darya Sannikova/Pexels Whether you’re watching TV, attending a footy game, or eating a meal at your local pub, gambling is hard to escape. Although the rise of gambling is not unique to Australia, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Wong, Forrest Fellow, School of Biological Sciences, The University of Western Australia Have you ever wondered if there are more insects out at night than during the day? We set out to answer this question by combing through the scientific ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carol T Kulik, Research Professor, University of South Australia IR Stone/Shutterstock In Australia, it’s not the done thing to know – let alone ask – what our colleagues are paid. Yet, it’s easy to see how pay transparency can make pay ...
The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is sounding a warning to migrants, that running foul of the law may see them leaving the country prematurely. ...
The government’s plan to get 50,000 people off jobseeker support by 2030 has had a rocky start, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Beneficiary numbers are up – and so are ...
Raglan Roast is a staple of Wellington coffee culture. But with five branches across the capital, which one is the best? I am a die-hard Raglan Roast fan. It’s consistently the most affordable cafe in Wellington, and one of the only places you can get a coffee after 3pm. So, ...
Residents of University of Auckland halls are being urged to withhold their accommodation fees from May 1, in a bid to force the university to take student concerns over rent hikes seriously.The University of Auckland is facing a strike from students over the cost of on-campus accommodation. The Students ...
New Zealand and the Philippines have signed a new maritime security agreement and stated their concerns over activity in the South China Sea, as Chinese vessels continue to flout international law. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Philippines President Ferdinand “Bongbong” Marcos committed to signing a Mutual Logistics Supporting Arrangement by ...
The thousands of government “back-office” job cuts are causing widespread pain in the capital city. In today’s episode of The Detail, we speak to three journalists and a think tank researcher, looking at the larger picture around the cuts and what effect it will have on Wellington, a city that’s ...
Opinion: The famed American architect and urban designer Daniel Burnham once said, “Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men’s blood!” Burnham wouldn’t have been referring to the transport plans in Aotearoa New Zealand over the past five years; projects so big they hadn’t the credibility to ...
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Opinion: With maths understanding at 42 percent for Year 8 students, there’s no doubt something has to be done. But how? The post Financial literacy should be on all of us appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Hineaupounamu ‘Missy’ Nuku has been scaling mountains in Canada for her college basketball team, the Lakeland Rustlers. Alberta is currently home for the 20-year-old point guard, who is in her first year of a scholarship at Lakeland College, where she is studying for a business degree. She has certainly made ...
I'd have thought it's just common sense for all teachers and school staff to be vaccinated. It shouldn't be a big deal, given some of the homes some of the kids come from, and the overcrowded classrooms these days.
I believe there are some good arguments against being vaccinated with the mRNA Pfizer jab ,but ONLY if one is young, very healthy, and is un-immunocompromised. And that would apply to very few people out there , some of who may well be young, fit, health "addict" teachers. If they are dead against this vaccination then I don't see why they should have to lose their job. Bear in mind a vaccinated person can pass covid on anyway. Just saying.
Sounds like you've done your own research, Garibaldi, and have identified groups that should avoid vaccination!
Weird how all the credible experts (Bloomfield, Baker etc in NZ) think getting everyone vaccinated down to infants (once approved) is the way to go, to give the best protection to everyone. The vaccines are incredibly safe, especially compared to the disease. Just Saying.
Perhaps the teaching profession could afford to lose a few teachers who don't believe in science or in protecting the wellbeing of kids and their families.
95% of teachers are in their unions Their Unions say vaccinate.
Alot of water is yet to go under the bridge before we find out everything about these covid vaccines. I have some nagging doubts about them but was happy to get the jab to avoid going to an overloaded hospital. Yes, I have done it for social and selfish reasons. I don't think the science and politics behind any of the big Pharma companies are squeaky clean. Time will tell.
Just leaving a false equivalence out there, more like.
Nobody has to lose their job. They just have to test the courage of their convictions.
It seems that in the US the number of people who genuinely would rather not have that job than get vaccinated is astonishingly low compared to the touted outrage.
"Nobody has to lose their job.
If they chose not to be vaccinated, they will lost their job. Which precisely contradicts what the PM said,
"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine."
I know a number of teachers who will have to make this call. Some (I don't agree with them) will lose their jobs over this. None of them like being lied to.
If. they. chose.
Which is a choice under duress. And against a specific assurance given by the PM.
The first bit would be fair, if we weren't talking about getting a vaccine in the middle of a fucking pandemic. What about the risk your hypothetical employee is putting on everyone else? Their paycheque isn't worth someone else's life.
the second bit – we’re still discussing that elsewhere.
The risk of infection can be managed by the employer. ECE's have been doing that on and off for months. Which is what we're discussing elsewhere.
So will vaccinated teachers who are working in cramped and overcrowded classrooms have the right to know the vaccination status of all their students and families – and exclude the unvaccinated?
We went back to school in Level 2 last year.
Desks were arranged like exam time. They had all been cleaned. There was plenty of hand sanitiser in every room. Teachers discussed the usual, coughing onto your elbow, thorough hand washing, social distancing.
At morning tea, the girls all hugged each other, and the boys were on the back field rolling around like labrador puppies.
There is only so much we can do.
Same experience. Well said. Kids are hopeless at Physical Distancing, probably because somebody was stupid enough to name it 'Social Distancing'. ..
Isn't anyone here worried about the human rights implications of these mandates? Whatever you believe about the vaccines the walking over of the bill of rights is terrifying. What comes next?
I think the focus is in the wrong place here. When this pandemic ends what rights will we as citizens be left with?
My partner is beside herself, tbh its getting a bit scary…
Its not just trampling rights, its pitting family member against family member, fear of losing employment etc, resentment that you dont really have a real choice anymore, resentment when a stranger thinks it ok to quiz you on your medical information, resentment that neighbors are encouraged to dob each other in over percieved violation… some people find these things extremely frightening.
"On Tuesday Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all."
I suspect her past assurances won't be any consolation now.
My 'tradie' son was quick to acknowledge the Prime Minister lied to us.
He said it rather too cheerfully for my liking.
Tradies eh? Kings of the "self made man" syndrome. Married to their manly Ford Rangers etc.
You are spot on about the Ranger.
I would like to think it is a phase he is going through. Surrounded by older, News talk Hoskjng disciples.
I would suggest that losing your job is a sanction. Wouldn't you?
“Teachers and healthcare workers who refuse a Covid-19 vaccine will soon be out of a job.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300427745/covid19-nz-sweeping-vaccine-mandate-for-teachers-and-most-healthcare-workers
When PM Ardern said the government would not apply penalties, and that those choosing not to be vaccinated were placing themselves at risk, the Delta outbreak was but a gleam under Collins’ eyebrow.
“Adapt or die.” If the current outbreak gets out of control then our government may change tack on "tax penalties or other sanctions" – it’s simply commonsense to adapt to changing circumstances. But I'd be surprised and disappointed if they reneged on the committment to no forced vaccinations in NZ.
"But I'd be surprised and disappointed if they reneged on the committment to no forced vaccinations in NZ."
They already have. "Teachers and healthcare workers who refuse a Covid-19 vaccine will soon be out of a job."
People having to face consequences for their actions, actions that are wholly their own choice, is not force.
When your livelihood is threatened, it is force.
Has any NZer had a Covid-19 vaccine forced on them? NZ border workers had a choice; I would be surprised and disappointed if it’s any different for teachers / healthcare workers – the choice is theirs. Makes you think, eh?
Teachers and especially healthcare workers are in demand globally, so NZ may face some staff shortages as these mandates loom – choices and consequences, as always.
"Has any NZer had a Covid-19 vaccine forced on them?"
If it's a choice between giving up their livelihood, then yes it's force.
And that's not all.
"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine. "
Surely you're not arguing that losing your job is not a sanction?
” NZ border workers had a choice;”
And if they made the ‘wrong’ choice, they lost their job. Despite the PM’s assurances.
Well, no. It's you making yourself unable to do your job safely. Your employer has responsibilities in that regard.
So let employers manage that risk. Just like we have until now. Just like we do with virtually all other health and safety issues.
So if OSH prosecute employers who have unvaxxed staff, that's not a sanction?
cool
"So if OSH prosecute employers who have unvaxxed staff, that's not a sanction?"
No it's not. Because they would only investigate if there was an 'incident' (such as an infection). And they would only prosecute if the employer had not taken all reasonable steps. Let the employers decide, and advertise their decision so the community can make informed choices.
Well, OSH regards hazards / near misses as reportable instances as well, and does investigate them.
So, basically, if a work-place were required to have an up to date register of vax status, and someone wasn't up to snuff, then that person working onsite would be a safety violation and the employer could be charged – that's not a sanction on the staff member fired because they can't do their job safely.
But a school having a register of vax status and being required to only employ vaxed staff is somehow a sanction on the teacher who gets dismissed for not being vaxed.
"So, basically, if a work-place were required to have an up to date register of vax status, and someone wasn't up to snuff, then that person working onsite would be a safety violation and the employer could be charged – that's not a sanction on the staff member fired because they can't do their job safely."
They wouldn’t necessarily be a safety violation or risk. It would be up to the employer to take all reasonable steps to ensure any risk was managed, minimised, mitigated, just as they have been doing. So by all means, keep a register, but don't sack workers who aren't vaccinated. Particularly in a profession with critical staff shortages.
consider this. If we were all more honest in this debate, more people might get vaccinated.
Your sophistry here makes sense for people that have your beliefs, but those aren't the people who are hesitant about the vaccine.
Being real about the degree of pressure doesn't hurt us, it makes things better. Yes, we are mandating (forcing people to choose between their job and being vaxxed, for the good of others), because this is one of our few ways to avoid a really big disaster for NZ.
Dancing around that by pretending there's no coercion will just set off hesitant people's bullshit detectors at a time when many are already concerned about being lied to and losing control of something that's very important to them.
Mate, we keep hazard registers to identify hazards and demonstrate that we have isolated, minimised, or eliminated them.
The preferred resolution is eliminate. No more hazard.
In the case of staff who present a chronic safety hazard that cannot be isolated or minimised reasonably, that means firing them (after giving them reasonable instruction and support to stop being a hazard, which they reject).
Just like you would a truck driver who turns out to be an alcoholic. They can't safely perform their role.
why would anyone keep a meaningless register? "Oh, this is the guy who spread all that disease. We have their name in a register, it's ok".
"The preferred resolution is eliminate. No more hazard."
But that isn't always possible, which is why we manage those hazards.
"In the case of staff who present a chronic safety hazard that cannot be isolated or minimised reasonably, that means firing them (after giving them reasonable instruction and support to stop being a hazard, which they reject)."
But this can be minimised reasonably. We could introduce regular testing (saliva/rapid antigen). Unvaccinated teachers could wear masks. There are alternatives to losing scarce teaching reseource.
Oh, so that's what sets off their bullshit detectors, huh.
Not the idea that Ardern was responding to the claim of literal forced vaccinations – full Billy TK shit – and now that is being conflated with "you can't sit in a room with thirty kids if you're going to give them an infectious disease, find something else to do with your stupidity".
Are you suggesting that all unvaccinated people should be fired from teaching, health, border control etc jobs?
What about the people with medical exemptions?
Testing catches it after the fact, and an employer could require full BL4 outfites and still be a fool to trust an antivaxxer to use them diligently. Only sure way is to get rid of them.
100 people, isn't it? If everyone else gets vaccinated, we might be able to keep them on.
lol, how many vaccine hesitant people do you actually know? They're not some amorphous BTK loving mass. Some of them are easily as intelligent as you. And they don't like being lied to.
Do you believe that Ardern would never sanction forced vaccinations? Pretty sure I've seen you argue for them pre-covid, as in maybe they're not such a bad idea. Pretty sure that Andre is in favour. You think vax hesitant people trust the left or Ardern on this? You think people who don't trust the government and feel politically homeless and disenfranchised are going to do what you want?
It doesn't matter how righteous you are in your own mind (and you may well be completely right). People are human, and there are things that work and things that don't. I'm suggesting trying honesty.
And yes, I saw the video on twitter, and I don't think Ardern was only talking about strap em down and force 'em, she was also at times talking about mandating vaccines via coercion.
in order to find some common ground here, I'll withdraw the idea that Ardern lied. She was pragmatic at the time, and genuine, but it's also true that she would have know that a time might come when coercion was necessary.
So let's call it a white lie, or just good PR and political nous. The problem is that some people feel lied to, and while you might thing their feelings are irrelevant, we know that many humans will respond better when they get to feel good or met half way or that people are considering their wellbeing. None of that us unreacheable to us now.
In Gypsy's clip, the question was about tax penalties, and Ardern was saying we don't need to do that because historically we get up to around 90%. That was pre-delta.
We might one day get to the level with a disease where literally everyone needs the jab to stop millions dying. In that case, fuck personal choices. We are not going to replay the black death just because some jerk wants to dick about and google their own research. In the 14th century Europe literally didn't know what hit it, today we can diagnose it, sequence it, kill it, and stick its photo on our wall.
The response is binary. They either get vaccinated, or they don't.
haven't seen Gypsy's clip, I'll see if can find the twitter one.
The issue I'm arguing isn't about personal choice, it's about not throwing the human rights baby out with the bathwater, or using authoritarian approaches that make the situation worse.
Ok, I'll take that as you being ok with either authoritarianism, or risking authoritarianism. By which I don't mean personal choice (that's something in your head), I mean that if society wants to keep treating people like shit (the feelings bit, not the vax/unvaxxed bit), then it can take it's chances, but we know how this went in the US and it's unlikely they will get out of that mess in the forseeable future.
''In Gypsy's clip, the question was about tax penalties, and Ardern was saying we don't need to do that because historically we get up to around 90%."
You haven't read the article. The PM's comments were in response to conspiracy theorists claims that people will be forced to get the vaccination. The article goes on to say this:
On Tuesday Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all.
"No, and we haven't for any vaccination in New Zealand applied penalties in that way," Ardern told The AM Show, after being asked if there might be tax penalties or other sanctions for refusing a COVID-19 vaccine.
She specifically ruled out mandated vaccination, and also ruled out any penalty for those who refused.
No, PM Ardern ruled out forced vaccinations.
Nor I, and happily there's no need. During a global pandemic it may become acceptable to review (on an on-going basis) the personal and societal merits of safe, effective vaccines.
If, after review, 'jab avoidance' still feels like the right choice, then there are many countries crying out for NZ teachers and healthcare workers. Tragically, in some of those countries the current average daily Covid death toll remains north of 100, so please at least consider getting the appropriate jabs before relocating.
We don't know how lucky we are to live in this country.
Unite against COVID-19
https://covid19.govt.nz
You didn't watch the interview embedded in that article.
Also:
Fairly accurate headline for a change. Not a bad prediction given the ground a year ago.
It was a simple statement of fact. Individuals either get the damned jab, or don't.
We get up to a level where ICUs aren't overloaded and deaths are rare, or we get fucked and thousands die.
If you want to hold their hand and take them down to big pharma to buy the prophylactic of their choice, and try and explain to them why the horse tablets are an imbecilic option, go ahead.
We don't have time, and we don't have the resources.
Like the PM was, I'm still reasonably confident that we won't need authoritarian measures to get to a level of community protection. But making sure that key network nodes who have many "edges" (close contacts, like teachers with students, colleagues and parents) have protection isn't just about population immunity, it's about stopping that particular person almost single-handedly causing a near-uncontrollable outbreak.
Population immunity is a stochastic concept: we don't know which person will protect which other person. But teachers getting vaccinated? We know exactly who that is to protect.
It's an easy choice, imho. I wish all teachers and healthcare workers who chose to make the tough decision to remain vaccine-free well – we can't, alas, wish those who have tragically died from Covid well.
Maybe the excellent Covid health outcomes achieved so far by our government and the team have caused some to lose sight of the millions of lives already lost to the pandemic. It appears to be the view of our government that it can’t effectively enforce the public health measures needed to eliminate or possibly even control this Delta outbreak, so they are enacting other logical and enforcible measures to keep everyone as safe as possible. They can’t please everyone.
If I needed to see a healthcare professional right now and had a choice (all other things being equal) between an unvaccinated and a vaccinated worker, I know which one I'd choose. Keep choice alive!
Unite against COVID-19
https://covid19.govt.nz
I made what I consider an informed choice and am fully vaccinated. I respect those who made an informed choice and chose not to. I certainly don't believe they should lose their livelihoods.
Yeah, but I could see back then that if the virus got worse, or we got a more deadly pandemic, that mandating would happen. Ardern could have been honest. It's not like they didn't know about the possibility. She chose the line she chose, because she's a good public communicator and it made sense at the time, but it wasn't her only option.
"Dancing around that by pretending there's no coercion will just set off hesitant people's bullshit detectors at a time when many are already concerned about being lied to and losing control of something that's very important to them."
Exactly. The PM has clearly either lied to or mislead teachers and front line customs workers. Anti-vaxxers are lying to people. But this mandating everything in sight is raising hackles and it is just so totally counter-productive.
Just said to McFlock that I'd stop calling it lying, in the interests of common ground. Ardern was being politically pragmatic. The problem is people feel like she lied. This is why I think honesty rather than ostracisation and sophistry would be a better move right now. We really need to be calling people in.
one of the options with mandating is to mandate and help people find other jobs if they don't want to vax. Isn't that what Labour is all about?
"one of the options with mandating is to mandate and help people find other jobs if they don't want to vax."
Honestly, I'm not comfortable with that either. The ECE sector is desperately short of teachers. And if Covid is in the community, children are just as likely to catch it on play dates etc as from a teacher, particularly if sound precautions are taken.
if a child spends one hour with an infected play mate, and one hour with an infected teacher, their risk is increased than if they spent one hour with only one of them. Even if we don’t think the child is at risk, the health system still is and in turn other people.
As for shortages, I believe that covid is the starting point of rolling crises over the next hundred years. Climate and ecology crisis are lapping around our feet. We have to learn to adapt, and the idea that societal institutions and services will remain unchanged is dangerous. Not that I expect Labour to be planning around this (yet), but I do think people need to be thinking about changes, including ones induced by shortages, and figure out how to make things better within the limitations.
Apparently there's a lot of hospo work going at the moment.
My son's a chef. He's back at work and has been told he can work all the hours he wants, there is such a shortage of chefs.
"if a child spends one hour with an infected play mate, and one hour with an infected teacher, their risk is increased than if they spent one hour with only one of them. Even if we don’t think the child is at risk, the health system still is and in turn other people."
I get all of that, but those 'if's' don't take into account other measures.
The ECE centre where I spend most of my time had a positive case recently. A child. I was a close contact, as were at least 30 other children and their parents (we had had a farewell event for one of the staff). Even though that was very early in the Delta outbreak, the centre was already exercising good practices, and despite none of the teachers being vaccinated at that stage no-one else caught covid from that child. The greatest risk to children is likely to come from parents and other contacts.
I don't really get this. Surely the point is to eleminate as many risks, not just the greatest. If risks are 50%, 10%, 5%, 15%, 30%, don't we want to do the smaller risks as well as the biggest?
Just BTW – I have just been sent a clip that is circulating on social media. The clip is of both the PM, Chris Hipkins and Ashley Bloomfield stating categorically that vaccinations will not be made compulsory. The PM is specifically asked about the 'no-jab no-job' policy in Australia, and she specifically replies that her government are not looking at that, that she she believes in vaccination, but "not mandatory". There is also a picture of a Covid-19 promotional ad that reads "you cannot be forced to get vaccinated'. It really isn't a good look.
This one?
https://twitter.com/_MaccaNZ/status/1447397828909617162
Yep, it is a bad look, this one will come back to bite them. From memory, the wording was different at different times. But I understood at the time the situation could change. Didn't think it would be this soon mind.
"Yep, it is a bad look, this one will come back to bite them. "
That's the one.
And while they’re implementing a mandate they said they wouldn’t, there’s this:
Epidemiologist Michael Baker says there’s so many holes in the system “you could drive a truck through it”.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/10/covid-19-government-rules-don-t-require-negative-test-result-to-cross-borders.html
"Surely the point is to eleminate as many risks, not just the greatest."
Of course, but there are balances. For example a business doesn't fire people because there is a chance of an accident. They manage, minimise and mitigate. In the tame way The jab doesn't eliminate all risk of catching covid; it is a mitigation, a way of minimising (not eliminating) risk.
Sounds just like the 2nd world war. I wonder if they moaned as much then.
Apparently, quite a few did, lol.
Like an ironmonger at the start of the war who responded to a cop instructing him to put out his lights:
Interesting thesis, that – but a big read, because thesis lol
Gerald Otto puts it better then I can.
When some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well. Should they be in the job?
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto
“Never have I seen
Never have I seen so many teachers leading by example and protecting the children in their classes from long covid and possibly even death whilst a small minority are so selfish about their freedom to infect the kids. They should never have been teachers in the first place.
Never had I seen so many health workers protect patients, themselves and their colleagues from infection while working like heroes on the front lines while illiterate morons protest their freedom and make the life of health workers more dangerous and stressful”.
If an RSV shot is approved should that be mandatory as well? (killed a bunch of kids this year overan starship)Flu? Measles, Chickpox? MMR?
We are going to have to decide these things, and be ready to roll on mandated booster shots as well.
Research on belief in conspiracy theories might help understand why "some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well."
Recent work from Australia (my bold) –
"Results of the current study indicate that individuals who have odd beliefs/magical thinking, and who are strategic, manipulative, dominant, and callous are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. Given the possibility for these beliefs to shape real world behaviour, and the possibility for this behaviour to have damaging social and civic consequences, it is imperative research continues to establish predictors of these beliefs so reliable methods to challenge and negate these erroneous beliefs can be established."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6890261/
There's a real problem in this line. You believe it is harmless, other people don't. Your argument is predicated on people accepting your beliefs and abandoning their own. How do you think that's going to work out, especially under financial and career duress?
Instead, we could be saying that the risk from the vaccine is low and the risk is worth taking because covid the illness in individuals and society has much worse outcomes and is much more likely to happen.
As a past teacher, after getting the facts, most want their pupils safe from the virus.
The union membership it is voluntary and last I looked 95%.
The members want vaccination.
Those who don't it is their personal choice and parents may not want that risk.
not sure what that has to do with what I said, tbh.
I don't "believe it is harmless". I know for a fact, vaccines are almost harmless, supported by a huge amount of evidence.
Opinions/beliefs and facts, are two different things.
That vaccination is almost 100% safe, is a fact. Determined by the results of trials and research involving millions of people.
Nothing is 100% safe, of course.
Covid, of course, is several orders of magnitude more harmful.
“instead, we could be saying that the risk from the vaccine is low and the risk is worth taking because covid the illness in individuals and society has much worse outcomes and is much more likely to happen”
What do you think I’ve been saying?
"Nothing is 100% safe, of course."
That's right. But you have been saying "harmless".
"What do you think I’ve been saying?"
I think you've been saying that the vaccine is harmless, and no-one ever experiences adverse effects.
In New Zealand after 5 million jabs
Adverse reactions more severe than sniffles for a few days. Less than ten.
That is about as "harmless" as anything gets.
So. Saying the Phizer vaccine is "harmless" is entirely justified.
"Covid, of course, is several orders of magnitude more harmful."
To the vulnerable
Apparently Brazil has passed the 600k "vulnerable" mark, and that's just their dead.
Per capita, that would be about 14,000 NZ dead.
But they're vulnerable, so that would be fine. 🙄
That is a fair point. But lets face it Brazil handled it shittely.
I think the govt did it right now at the time. But have to say personally I thought at the time it would have been easier and cheaper to the whole country if we went for shielding the vulnerable rather than restricting them and everyone else (Which is the vast majority(.
All in all reckon at the beginning they did really well. But geezes there is no reason for the Sth Island to be at level 2 now with a properly controlled and the cook strait.
And the vagueness of stuff is silly.
Give me Arden 2020. Because the 2021 one is a bit scattery
Well, down here another person was in the paper today claiming they didn't break the rules by travelling to SI from Auckland. And a chap got tested after his Northland trip.
There are more than a million people in L3, and another couple mill in L2 in the North Island. Even essential travel is likely to spread some cases down here while daily rates are this high.
I'm involved with a local theatre in Dunedin, and operationally we're fucked badly even under L2. Sustained negative cashflow is a worrying thing, for sure.
But waiting until we have detected cases before limiting the ability of those cases to spread is like waiting until you have covid before getting the jab, or waiting until you're about to be in an accident before putting your seatbelt on. There's a good chance you'll be too late to get the effect.
The sooner we stop this crazy "vaccinate to protect others" nonsense, rather than "vaccinate for your own health" the better imo.
Yes, vaccinating mostly healthy adults in order to protect the part of the population with the best immunity and who will be least affected, is as stupid as it sounds.
"When some Teachers and health workers think their “right” to avoid a harmless jab, overrides the rights of their students, patients or fellow staff to remain well. Should they be in the job?"
Yes, this is where I think the debate should be. I'd like to hear the views of the people who are avoiding vaccinations on this point. We hear their views on anything but this, and I doubt we'll get anywhere until we do know what they think about the rights of the kid with asthma, or the one with the mum who is sick, or the one whose dad is worn out from his work in the hospital looking after covid patients.
Fran, think back over our history and look at the special powers that governments have had in the past, especially in war time, and never got used then or since. There have always been emergency powers. There have always been courts. There have always been elections. WE have had epidemics, wars, depressions, emergencies in the past.
You ask the question- what rights will we as citizens be left with?
One only should suffice- universal suffrage.
We don't like what has happened, we vote them out. The laws get changed, the regulations revoked,
There is one interesting question for me, though. What changes, what attitudinal shift, what social mores will alter after the pandemic?
How will it affect our group thinking, since we have all faced a common enemy and seen our interdependence on each other, rich or poor, whatever suburb we live in (David Seymour take note).
We may see that inequity threarens us all and come to see that a fairer society is a safer society as well.
Surely yr enthusiasm for just needing a vote is a little naive or misguided.
Lobbyists acting for interests with deep pockets shoots that 'one person one vote' to smithereens.
I didn't vote for compulsory medication last election.
As to the future relationships I would love to buy your narrative but I don't see it. My son's 19 yr old girlfriend works in retail. The middle class are not shy of demanding to know her vaccination status half a dozen times a day.
Hopefully she is wearing a mask and that her employer has plans in place to encourage the uptake of the vaccination. I think, as a bare minimum, public facing people in shops etc should be vaccinated but if not at least wear masks.
I believe that there is a selling point of having a completely vaxxed staff, if allowed under HR legislation. Retail needs us and many will go to those places that are mask wearing and/or vaxxed.
Neither did I. I also did not know that we were going to have the different /difficult to deal with Delta variant.
I also don't buy the middle class stuff. We should not allow the uptake of the vaccination and the positivity of wearing a mask to be side tracked by this.
I would go a little further than universal suffrage. Universal suffrage with MMP as a voting system as the minimum, although recognising that our first govt could bring in Human Rights legislation after an election.
Who voted for Covid?
Covid was unavoidable and maybe inevitable.
Mandatory medication has been chosen as if there is no other option.
gsays, one question. If as you say, "Lobbyists acting for interests with deep pockets shoots that 'one person one vote' to smithereens," why did you vote?
Sounds like an exercise in futility to this 'naive and misguided' person……..
Surely, at the least, voting gives licence to criticize.
That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the rorts and short-comings eg 3 main parties allegedly in breach of election funding.
I go a little further. I vote, I criticize, I joined a party 50 years ago to create policy, I even stood for parliament twice. Now that might be seen as 'naive and misguided'. As Voltaire once pronounced, on another activity it must be added, "Once is philosophy, but twice is perversion."
For all those people who complain that the government has got no real power, and for all those people who say that the government has got too much power- well, at least one side has got it wrong.
If there is no real power in government, then why does the Right contest so hard. Surely they'd just leave it all to their "deep pockets"?
Clearly there is power in government, witness mandated vaccines.
There also has to be power in lobbyists and vested interests. Fishing boats and their disgraceful practices. There has been opposition to cameras on boats for years and it hasn't come from the electorate.
Sincerely, well done on standing for parliament, more courage of yr convictions than I. I stood unsuccessfully for BOT of our local school. Too much of a fragile ego to do that again.
Nandor Tanzcos (I think) observed he was more influential out of parliament than in it.
Thanks, gsays. My friends said I was better off out of it. But the experience of standing was mostly satisfying- even the nutters were entertaining. But even then, before the decade of dirty politics, there were serious lies of a personal nature. One of the nicer ones was that I had two drug convictions…… (Two sounds far more convincing than one!)
mac 1 there were terrible lies put out by a group. Some ended up in court. Sadly those who do this at arms length but overlooked revealing photos of them with these people became known. Cheers, we definitely need those who stand for public service regardless of the pitfalls.
mac 1, 1.3.4
Orwell, enough said.
37 years ago, FW, and waiting……..
For prophecies of doom I much prefer Yeats and The Second Coming. Shorter, more poetic and written during the time of the Spanish Flu Epidemic.
FFS. What's with all this crazy hysterical nonsense?
When the pandemic ends all our normal rights will be resumed. If you think otherwise, you're living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. As it stands the lives of people are at serious risk – including your life Fran – and that must take precedence over all else.
If you and others can't see that then I suggest you go see a head-shrink.
LOL, yes Europe has seen how easy that is.
No they haven't because the pandemic is far from over. 🙄
what makes you think the pandemic will end?
NZ was this close to removing privacy rights from a whole class of people before the last election. It boggles my mind that lefties haven't seen the erosion of rights in the last 40 years. They're being chipped away at. The issue here isn't whether the laws now are needed (they are), it's the cultural shifts happening that will mean more laws like this will be passed more easily as we go along. We've seen this since 9/11 in particular.
A specific example here: the covid app data won't be used for non-covid things. This is policy, the protection isn't written into law. You might trust Labour on this, I sure as hell don't trust NACT (being part of the class they were trying to remove rights from). Why won't Labour put the protection in law?
The pandemic will be over – one day. It might not be in my life-time but it will happen. See Spanish Flu 1918.
oh that's alright then 😉
You said,
Are you ok removing rights for now and reinstating for people who are around after you die? It doesn't really work like that.
It often does, though. EG Britain during WW2 vs 1955, and the restrictions around the aforementioned Spanish Flu.
The funny thing is the debates about masks and lockdowns are almost identical between the latter and now, and they didn't have vaccines or testing or ventilators.
Look Facebook took more rights away than most. Phones… all the gadgets.
Face it, if we put our tea our holiday and more online…..????
FB took away privacy rights, so the left can give away even more, this time to the state? Are you really arguing that? Do you know what National were doing before the 2017 election?
Chilling was my response.
I have a little more empathy for the fringe element who predicted this compulsion ages ago.
One upside is it reveals the closeted authoritarians and confirms the ones who were 'out'.
Name calling is not a desirable trait.
C'mon ref, where have you been the last year?. There has been lots of name calling and slurs that have gone uncommented upon. Not against your team perhaps?
I am really surprised how much this has shaken me, so may have to be forgiven the occasional outburst.
I'd say if a teacher is anti vax they arnt intelligent enough to teach
In a nutshell as usual bw.
Imagine though, instead of being the leader in front of a class of kids they can spend their time at home.
They can then be an oracle to the whole world on online forums. Ironically, that would automatically put them in the position of being an expert at education and schooling.
My 2 cents : I'm getting tired of all the anti vax rubbish and being locked down too. I have been and am under treatment of a world leading and renowned Professer of Medicine. Ive trialed experimental drugs for him and now enjoy the cure; along with millions of others, his work bought about. Hes not tied to big Pharma, in the early days he sent me along to a herbalist to help with the effects of my disease. He recommends the vaccine and I'll take his advice before any body elses reckons. Get vaccinated.
As an aside for anyone putting it off because of fear of needles just think of how many more jabs you'll be getting if you get the virus.
Is that Ed Gane?
you betcha. Be over 20 years of life hes given me next month.
This whole situation is about trust. Well done Bruce, many happy returns of the years.
We have a caring Government and this latest meme of 'loss of rights" is silly.
In this situation planning is ongoing and must to try to overcome huge difficulties. In these circumstances vaccine is required. If the member chooses against it ok. No-one will force them.
I have a background in patient rights and alternative health communities. There are many people who have been harmed by mainstream medicine. The issue here isn't that msm is safe (there are always risks with medications and vaccines), it's how to help people make good risk assessments. Telling people to ignore their own experience and knowledge base and follow yours is just not going to work.
Hi Weka, I apologise if my plea to get vaccinated came across as a bit bossy. I must admit I was annoyed when i posted having just read a plea to do the opposite based on mere reckons. I had hoped by sharing my experience from a reputable source may help others make good risk assessments.
Many many many more people have been helped by mainstream medicine. As Elvis Costello says 'Accidents will Happen.' As long as the aim is true
I would be interested in the results of anyone who has tried muscle testing (reflexology) the vaccine. And I feel healing energy, prana, orgone or similar is of little use when the tiger ( virus ) is chewing of your arm.
So for me the vaccine provides a solution but for it to work everyone must be on board and I feel sharing my experience can help with that.
It does seem that people who have a lot of faith in msm are helped by that belief. I suspect there is some strong placebo in addition to the RCT style processes around drugs and other treatments. This isn't me dissing msm, I think that's all a good thing. I'm glad for you that it's worked really well for you, I know msm kept my father alive for many more years than he would have otherwise.
Thing is though, the people who are harmed, are a crossover with those who are vax hesitant. They know the short comings of msms, and telling them the vaccine is harmless or that we should just trust the scientists and doctors doesn't work for similar reasons as to why muscle testing or chi kung wouldn't work for you. You have to meet people where they are. Many people at the moment seem to believe that forcing their beliefs on others will yield good results, but when has that every worked out well?
I agree that we need as many people on board with the vaccine as possible if we want to prevent disaster in NZ. The argument is about how we do that, get as many people on board as possible. Ostracisation, meanness, ridicule, force, sophistry and fudging the truth are not the best approaches if we want a high vax rate.
btw, afaik muscle testing has no empirical support (but it's maybe still a useful tool in some individual settings). Energy work like chi kung I think would be an excellent adjunct to getting vaccinated, and might help some of the hesitant people get on board. Would love to know if China and other Asian countries are integrating those methods. I know the Chinese have been doing work on TCM and herbal medicine alongside msm in treating covid infections.
I read about this a while ago but have not seen follow up.
https://www.herbalgram.org/resources/herbalgram/issues/129/table-of-contents/hg129-wnews-thai-andro-cov19/
Good that they have now located the second woman that travelled up North. And it sounds like she has Covid symptoms. It's interesting that neither have been named like the Wanaka couple, as she may have been located sooner if public knew who it was.
I hope they are charged in some way as they have caused so much damage to Northland.
Covid 19 Delta outbreak: Race between 'vaccine and virus' as Auckland stays in level 3 – NZ Herald
I’m guessing they will be charged with something, but that name suppression will be granted, possibly permanently, by da judge, in view of the vitriol (and possibly other things) both individuals would likely have hurled at them if their identities were revealed.
What is now important is the locations of interest, testing, contact tracing and following the level 3 restrictions.
I suppose the usual political stirring will take place.
I would like to know how the opposition would handle such a situation when a person chooses to remain silent?
Thumbscrews?
I was going to say waterboarding.
The opposition would have no problem with the woman not talking.
It's one they support, National as shown through the Todd Barclay saga, Act through their belief in invividual choice.
@ Treetop (2.2) … Stretching on a rack! Crucifixion perhaps!
" It's interesting that neither have been named like the Wanaka couple"
TBF the Wanaka couple weren't named (well apart from on Facebook gossip). They came out and named themselves
They didn't name themselves.
They were caught.
Originally got name suppression, which they had to withdraw under pressure from others that were being mis identified as them.
They didn't have to withdraw.
And the hype around them was ridiculous and totally out of proportion, given no one seems to give a toss about some of the other antics people are getting up to.
Priviledged people who should have known better.
Deserved all they got.
I agree though, that antics like Collins running around Queenstown unmasked, when she was from Auckland, for no good reason, should have caused more attention.
Exactly. Totally agree
Who’s “Jacinda’s mate with the stupid hair”?
Siouxsie Wiles? How she spells Suzy might be stupid, but her hair isn’t. Done more to boost her public image than anything else, imo. And she didn’t break the rules, her friend did, IIRC?
As Siouxsie Wiles grew up in the UK, I bet her parents were fans of the UK rockband Siouxsie and the Banshees – Siouxsie Sioux was the lead singer.
Yes. Highly likely, I agree.
Are you saying one law for all?
Chris T – There's no 's' in Te Reo.
Apologies.
I am actually a bit embarrassed I didn't realise that.
Raining quite heavily; looks like it’ll be a pluvial day. Stream’s up a foot or two and flooding dirty brown. No eel feeding today.
https://vimeo.com/292619749
I very rarely needed to mow my lawns when the pooks visited my back yard several times a day. They liked trimming & eating the grass.
Altho the younger ones, once they learned how to fly up onto the fence & down again onto my lawn, invariably had to be shrieked at quite a few times "No! No pulling out grass! Just trimming". It often took up to a fortnight of daily doing my block at newbies to get them to learn that "shearing" the grass was ok, but pulling out clumps of it was definitely NOT!
Do you have any fruit trees on your lawn? And if you have, do you get any of it? I got very over pukekos when living next to them. We had a flock of around 100 living in the paddocks around our house. We get more fruit from the 5 fruit trees we have now where we live than from the 30 trees we had on the farm.
Only a lemon tree, Macro. They don’t like lemons.
I’m fortunate that that apart from their visits to my back yard they basically live in the stream & on the stream banks, & spend most of their day foraging up & down the stream. There’s plenty of kai, & lotsa variety, for them there.
All they were getting at my place was “treats” of wheat grains, & Molenberg bread chunks (so I could enjoy watching them eat bread holding it in their “hands” – i.e. with their long, very dextrous talons).
"looks like it’ll be a pluvial day."
Oh dear. You have been reading one of Geoffrey Palmer's books haven't you? He was, of course, the man who described his homeland as "New Zealand is an irreducably pluvial country.".
Now you are using that word, just to show how literate you are I suspect.
I suspect Gezza has come across that word just as I did. As children we learned the word pluvial very early on as events that my Dad organised, A & P shows and Racing days had to have pluvial insurance. We always lost the low table in our bedroom at the time of the A & P show as judges used it to stand the dogs on for judging.
And of course Geoffrey Palmer's use is a delight.
Those who seem to delight in putting others down or damning with faint praise, as far as language is concerned always remind me of the quote from Issac Asimov
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
I wasn't meaning to disparage Gezza. However, reading the last sentence I wrote I can see how it can come across that way. To Gezza – I apologise.
I have a rather similar memory about A & P shows. I had an Uncle who used to come and judge livestock at the local show. He would come and stay with my family and I would lose my bed for a couple of nights. Not quite the same as having your table take pride of place during the judging of course.
That was a long time ago of course. Now the farmers don't go any more and the Show is really just for the townies.
No worries. Can't remember now if it was my Latin or French teacher who taught us the word.
How soporific alwyn. Hint.. it's from Peter Rabbit.
Are you really up to reading Peter Rabbit?
You seemed more like someone who had reached your intellectual limit with the Teletubbies.
Alwyn, I gather you never read to your children/grandchildren ?
I think alwyn is so suitably rebuked that any reply would be lachrymose.
Yes indeed with the visitors. We always had to give our visitors our bed/s or topped and tailed.
A couple of years ago I dropped my cousin aged 72 at the time, at her daughters place to stay overnight. I was amazed when I picked her up the next day, to find that her daughter had put her mother on a mattress on the floor so she did not have to move any of the three children 9,8 5 from their beds. I was gob-smacked.
A & P shows still do have an attraction for rural folk in the smaller places. I agree that those within striking distance of a city or larger town the 'townies' do go.
.
Didn't the Propeller-Head say something similar as PM when 'comforting' flood victims c1990 … something like: "But what none of you seem to understand is that New Zealand is, by its very nature, a highly pluvial Country" … in the process highlighting just how conspicuously he lacked the common touch ?
[Note: maybe it was as Deputy PM during Cyclone Bola 1988 ?]
Excitedly playing his trumpet as he pranced around the outer ring of the top floor of the Beehive in a very early Ep of Holmes, euphorically anticipating the arrival of his hero, clarinettist Acker Bilk, didn’t help his populist image any either … I remember just shaking my head as I watched … worth 50k votes to Bolger-Richardson.
Who’s the “propeller head”? Sir Geoffrey Palmer?
One of the advantages of my 34 years in the Public Service was that I was able to move around a lot, filling a number of roles, nearly all of which involved a great deal of writing, but in various different styles, from very formal English, to quasi-legal writing, to semi-technical IT user requirements, to policy manuals, to very plain, easily understandable English in forms & leaflets where the onus was on simplicity & accuracy.
Even today I find it relatively easy to adapt my writing & speaking styles to suit a particular audience or individual, if I can be bothered to put a bit of effort in. But I can also be damned lazy about it when I’m not being paid.
Regarding MIQ and the selfish few who wish to jump the queue, I should think everyone would have a story to say why they should get back.
I don't think the lottery model is good however, perhaps it should be more like going for a blood test, get a number and wait till you become head of the queue
Pretty good interview by Kim Hill with the Big yin from this morning.
Parkinson's sucks man
RNZ Audio Player
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018815700/sir-billy-connolly-a-windswept-and-interesting-life
[full link added - weka]
Thanks Chris T, I'm a big fan. He is one of my hero's.
We loved that and thanks Chris T/ Weka.
Enjoyed listening to that. Billy doesn't let his Parkinsons get him down. A man who's loved his life & wouldn't really change any of it.
I'll probably be rolling my eyes at the vegan propaganda side of this, but otherwise it looks exciting, feature length doco on the NZ dairy industry, with some heavy hitting names backing it. Not sure when it's being released.
https://twitter.com/MilkedFilm/status/1445887197060616193
It's been released. Didn't notice vegan propaganda. It's about the dairy industry as it says. I saw it as a 5 or so part series. Cant remember who ran it tho. Maybe Prime
Prime have it for rent/buy although I couldn't see immediately if that was allowed from NZ. It's not on Prime streaming (from NZ).
Premiering in NZ in November,
https://twitter.com/MilkedFilm/status/1447350084828491782
Thank you for sharing. Looks like an important film.
Will check on Prime or wait till November.
cough cough, Putlockernewsite, cough cough.
nope
No worries. Can't remember now if it was my Latin or French teacher who taught us the word.
Latin I expect.
History and Etymology for pluvial
Adjective
Latin pluvialis, from pluvia rain, from feminine of pluvius rainy, from pluere to rain
Interesting stuff etymology.
il fait pleut – it's raining (French)
plein na – it's raining (Khmer – from memory).
I think you’re right.
My Latin teacher was nicknamed Cabbage. He was an arrogant, sarcastic bastard & we loathed each other. I dropped Latin for 6th Form History as soon as I could.
He also taught us the English word perambulate … to walk or travel through or round a place or area, especially for pleasure and in a leisurely way.
From the Latin per … all over, & ambulare … to walk.
That puts to my mind a story a cop told me once, about a witness in a trial. The witness had limited English skill, not so much that a translator was needed but still learning the second language. Anyway, the prosecution asks the witness to describe the incident, and the witness talks about how he was "proceeding down this street" and "proceeded to see" yadda yadda yadda.
The use of the word "proceeding" in a repeated manner raised a few eyebrows, so the defense almost immediately begins cross examination with the word, asking him about whether the witness normally uses it. Even the cop was beginning to second guess whether someone had coached the witness.
"My English language class is on Monday nights, and I use the new words as much as possible. We learnt 'proceeding' this week". lol
From which we get 'pram' I guess. Wot one pushes a baby in.
Heh.
One doesn't push the baby. The pram gets pushed. The baby's in the pram.
I'll shuddup now
Yup. 👍🏼 Correct.
Pram is just a colloquial contraction of perambulator.
Peregrination is pretty appealing, eh, Peregrin Took!
“A journey, especially a long or meandering one.”
IIRC, fourth form geography.
I would love to hear Bill's take on the mandated vaccines.
He often articulated unease I had about issues, only more articulate and with good imagination.
I know he popped up recently and I trust he is keeping good health.
I wait with baited breath a comment from whoever the opposition finance spokespeople are.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/453386/govt-books-2020-2021-financial-statements-show-deficit-of-4-point-6-billion
Both Goldsmith (8 billion) and Joyce (14 billion) didn't think treasuries (10 billion over 6 months) forecasting error was that worthy of comment.
Sudden stratospheric warming underway in Antarctica,Southern annular mode switched negative,and vortex breaks down.
Bring your Kale into the barns.
http://ds.data.jma.go.jp/tcc/tcc/products/clisys/STRAT/gif/pole10_sh.gif
https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/daily_ao_index/aao/aao_index.html
Ouch. If this follows Northern Hemisphere patterns, we may well be swept with Antarctic cool while the Antarctic warms. And a whole lot of muppets will say, "How can the planet possible be warming??"
Earthquake Top of the South 2:55. About 10 seconds.
"Weak" 5.1 mag, 80 km north of French Pass, according to Geonet.
Felt a sizeable single jolt, rattled the house, here in North Welly.
Oh look we have a surplus again! Virtual surplus, based on the gains of government properties, but hey, surely the bank will loan on that equity right? Or maybe we already have buyers?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/surplus-inches-closer-as-government-books-billions-of-dollars-on-rising-property-values/YD4F7N3P3D7P6TKQGAZGFVEKEI/
This reminds me of a day in 1997, when then Finance Minister Theo Waigel of Germany re-evaluated the Gold reserves held by hte German Government to qualify Germany for European economic and monetary union. Suddenly all the criteria was met, and well the rest is history. Lol
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB864581478643282000
Surplus! Surplus!
yei yei hey hey
Surplus!
Treasury prefers it that way. Please keep focusing on the bottom line. Please also ignore the $10 billion (over 6 months) forecasting error. Additionally please don't understand that if the govt had spent an additional 10 billion in the last 6 months treasury already vetted the impacts of that on other economic variables as being fine. And for heavens sake do not realise that an eventual surplus of $N involves those $N being paid out of NZers savings and debt levels.
Never mind. The Rich will always engineer it so that we others experience an income deficit surge…
This may have been covered here before (there's a lot to read on all the Open Mikes!) but anyway, it's worth a repeat.
A quick and easy game (less than 5 mins) where you get to make all the Covid decisions in government (h/t Newshub). And then you have to deal with the consequences … Link here:
https://www.kiaoramrwills.com/COVID-19.html
It's unduly pessimistic on the numbers IMO, but never mind. It's a useful reminder that every option, from full opening up to tanks on the streets, would have repercussions. A few commentators should try it and test their empty reckons.
Happy to report that as PM I got the R number right down and saved the country. Unfortunately this cost me my job …
See if you can do better.
Good fun – this PM went down fighting. Maybe managing NZ's response to the pandemic isn't as easy as the armchair critics reckon.
Aside from “not being Judith” what has Labour achieved since coming to power?
Journey back with me to 2017- a bright eyed Jacinda made her first promise as leader of the Labour party to bring light rail from the CBD to the Airport by 2021. Now I just checked my calendar and we have 81 days left until 2021 comes to an end. Last time I checked 0.00 metres of track have been laid. The workers are going to have to pull out a few big shifts to accomplish this promise!
Diving deeper into the 2017 manifesto quickly over my morning cup of tea…
Nurses in all high schools … last time I checked (and I do have an OIA request in to get the official number) this wasn’t started?
Kiwibuild – remember the good old days of Kiwibuild? Promise of 1,000 homes built in the first year increasing to 5,000 built in 2019 and then the lofty goal of 10,000 per year from 2020. Grand total we should be at based on just these numbers- 26K by the end of this year. Last number report = 1,169 as at August 2021. The positive here is that they have ticked off the first years goal… over three years in…
Skypath (no not a new Bond movie…)- another great promise from 2017 where we were going to get a bike and pedestrian crossing for (what now seems like a bargain price) $30M. Fast forward to 2021 and we have no progress but have spent over $50M on another version of the crossing that has been put on the scrap heap! Clap. Clap.
Remember the great headline generating quote that tackling climate change was “my generation's nuclear-free moment." Plaudits flowed around the world. Then reality struck- this year we imported more coal for power generation than any year previous. It is purely a coincidence that Megan woods basically closed down the natural oil and gas industry in NZ overnight back in 2018.
Lucky we have a Government with a strong track record on prudent spending to see us through this massive amount of debt we’ve taken on to get the country through COVID though right? Right? They only spend money on quality projects such as funding a series of collaborative quilts for Jess Jonhson and her Mother… sure it is only $17,850 right? Noting that someone on $80K per year would pay $17K in income tax so basically paid tax the entire year for Jess to make some quilts with her Mum… very nice.
So – the end of my rant… National is a shambles, we get that. But is this really what you want to support? Aside from slogans about kindness and team of five million… what has Jacinda and Labour achieved? What will their legacy be? And when Jacinda moves on… who is actually there to take up the leadership?
The two main parties in NZ politics have shown us they can achieve… nothing. What can the alternative be?
Sounds like you've bought into talking points from the taxpayers' onion.
Labour have fallen short in various areas, but if you want a serious debate you'll need better lines than somehow linking NZ's low debt with Jess Johnson.
Cancelled National Parties tax bracket moves and increased Working for Families and Accommodation Supplements substantially
Added a new tax bracket for the very high income earners
Bright line test extended
Property losses ringfenced
Property interest deduction reduced
Overseas investment in property mostly banned
Increased benefit rates by the most seen in a generation (still work to do of course)
Indexed benefits to average wage increases rather than CPI
Introduced Winter Energy Payment
Free lunches in schools
Increased Student Allowances
Fees free scheme (1st year at tertiary institutes, free apprenticeships)
Restored adult night class funding
Kainga Ora building more than 2,000 houses/year
Improved tenancy legislation by eliminating no-fault terminations by landlords
Credit contract reform
Increased minimum wage to $20
Extended paid parental leave to 26 weeks (from 18)
Increased sick leave to 10 days p.a.
Matariki
Improved Employment Relations Act – union delegates now specifically protected, collective agreements must include pay, 90 day trial removed for medium and large employers, breaks reinstated
Pay equity legislation and settlements e.g. social workers, admin workers, teacher aides, nurses and ECE teachers coming, others in the pipelines
Feebates for electric cars
Reduction in prisoner numbers by over 15%
Restored voting rights for prisoners with less than 3 year sentences (I think that's a net positive, but acknowledge that others will disagree)
That's some off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others. Still, other than what must be close to the lowest Covid death rate in the world and a negative excess mortality rate, what they done for us lately?
🙂
That’s quite an impressive list. Gonna copy & keep that.
………………………………………….
“Reduction in prisoner numbers by over 15%”
………………………………………….
Yes, but what’s happening with the crime rate? This info seems hard to come by.
My “impression” from reporting – and from personal experience of some youth offenders were intimidating shopkeepers & stealing from local dairies, and another group who smashed 5 local car windows trying to steal cars, including mine – is that it’s increasing.
Correction: I found this, although it's for December 2020:
https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/crime-at-a-glance-dec2020.pdf.
Some crime's gone down; violent crime's increasing.
Fair, although the comment points out that there are new family violence offences introduced in Dec 2018 (so by Labour) which has seen an increase in the recording of serious assaults (the new offences were strangulation and assault on a person in a family relationship).
True, Craig. Altho interestingly I found my from that link somehow to a more up to date Police "Snapshot" which picked up that I'm in Wellington & which shows crime stats for Welly are mostly showing increases:
Sorry, pic’s too big to all fit, though half the page is only a hi-level map of Wellington.
The date range for that Wellington Crime “Snapshot” is Sep 2020 to Aug 2021.
For some people an 'all bets are off the table' while we deal with Covid approach to govt is what they are focussing on. Kudos for them will come based on that.
For many the idea of looking at a 2017 manifesto will seem a delightful 'those were the days exercise.' Possibly looking at the 2017 manifesto and what was achieved prior to Feb 2020 would be a fairer way of looking at it.
When reading the list from Craig Hall 14.2 I am heartened that other aspects are/have been dealt with and know that work will be ongoing in many govt depts, not linked to the covid response to investigate, and bring up policy matters to Govt. Ministers will still be focussing on ideas/policies in their portfolios.
Lukas, go to this web site for a list of Labour's achievements up to May this year. Far too long to list.
https://www.labour.org.nz/our-record