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Open Mike 12/04/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 12th, 2017 - 94 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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94 comments on “Open Mike 12/04/2017 ”

  1. Pataua4life 1

    Any one going to be joining the “Presidents” club
    What a bunch of pillocks

    • BM 2.1

      Rough caculations

      Average median income

      $882.00 per week less tax @ 20%


      No more than a third on rent or mortgage


      30 year mortgage @ 8%

      $12220 per year less interest $977.00 =$11243.00

      Maximiumn house value
      $337290+ 80 k deposit @around 20%

      $420,000 approx

      • adam 2.1.1

        Not in Auckland ah BM, so your fantasy figures are more BS than BM.

        • BM


          Of course isn’t you clown, I was providing a figure to demonstrate what an average house has to cost to met the criteria in the link provided.

          The amount of knee-jerking around here is starting to do my head in

          • bwaghorn

            the amount of knee jerking one gets is linked to the amount of jerking one does

          • adam

            So you agree this national government has suppressed wages to the determent of all.

            • BM

              Wouldn’t say suppresses wages, but they have been far too hands off with the property market and immigration.

              The only way forward is for the government to build as many rentals as possible to drive down the cost of living, this will flow on by bringing down the cost of houses within that lower tier,

              Forget the KiwiBuild first homes bullshit, no one should be buying a new home as their first home it’s financially irresponsible to get that far in debt.

              Bad for the individual, bad for the economy.

              • adam

                So you agree that inflation in housing is killing the middle class then.

                • BM

                  I believe it’s hurting the whole economy and agree that a third of household income is about as much as you want to be paying on rent or a mortgage.
                  Obviously, a single person or people without dependents could spend more.

                  All that money heading overseas into foreign banks is money that’s not being spent within the NZ economy, less money in the economy equals fewer jobs.

                  Also, means an unhappy disillusioned populace and that’s not really something a political party wants.

                  • adam

                    Both the major political parties have both run with these policies. But the reality is that national have been in power for almost 9 years, and done virtually nothing.

                    As for the Aussie banks bleeding us dry. Kiwis need to stop banking with them, that is simpler said, than done though. But if you are on a low income – moving to a co-operative bank makes more sense. And by law these are all locally owned.

                    • BM

                      It’s not just the Austrailian banks or banks in general, it’s more the way kiwis perceive property.

                      Property is how you make money so you buy property and because property always goes up in value you can’t lose( I personally disagree), so people buy property at inflated prices.

                      Unfortunately, the knock on effect is that people who just want to buy a house to live in and raise a family end up paying through the nose to purchase a place.

                      The solution is to make residential property less attractive, rental WOFs and actually ping people for buying and flicking houses within a short period of time.

                      I’d have a sliding level of capital gains tax depending on how long you’ve been in a place

                      3 months or less 25%
                      3 -6 months 20%
                      6-12 months 15%
                      1-2 years 10%

                      I’d also apply this to the family home as well.

              • michelle

                yes they have BM (Supressed wages through there immigration policies) they have brought in cheap labour to stop the trickle down effect and keep the trickle up effect going. So they have interfered with the market when it suit them just like John did with Keytruda when it suit and when they want something like the dummies who keep voting for them.

              • Herodotus

                Should property prices drop by any meaningful % no one has thought of how many spec builders that would wipe out, and the consequences to the trades as they have to suffer from bad debts then who will build all these houses ?
                Plus banks will cut off funding to land developers so little land is made available to be built in.
                The development sector is far more complexed than many realise.

                • BM

                  I’m surprised there are actually spec builders still around?

                  Trying to compete with the big boys for sections must be nigh on impossible.

                  • Herodotus

                    There are plenty out there, but its has become increasingly challenging; some have immigrated here & setup business, ( And I note build quality houses),immigrants spec builders entered the market in the 1990’s and more have been added with the recent influx. There are also the franchise owners. the ones you see on TV pushing their brand.
                    There are murmerings that some of the so called “Big Boys” are being squeezed and have been forced by the banks to reduce their debt/exposure to their banks.
                    So what may appear a blessing also has a sting !!

      • Graeme 2.1.2

        Yep, back in the day when our current, or really retiring, middle class was being formed in the late 70’s this is what we did.

        Keith Hay, Universal and Neil built thousands of 70 – 90 m2, very basic houses all around the country, but especially in Auckland. A young couple could capitalise their Family Benefit and have a deposit, government loans and other incentives and they were in a house at around 1/3 of income.

    • Molly 2.2

      Chile, not exactly the most wealthy nation, has had a national understanding and acceptance of housing provision for many years, which was not affected even by Pinochet.

      This did not happen without disruption though:
      “…By the late 1960s, many pobladores began to mobilize collectively, seizing land at an unprecedented rate in the country’s main cities. Between 1967 and 1973, some 400,000 people—about 14% of the city’s population—occupied land in the capital, Santiago. Other land seizures took place in the 1980s and 1990s, albeit on a smaller scale.

      The occupations were a response to abysmal housing conditions. During the 1950s and 1960s, the proliferation of shantytowns and run-down tenements stood as a powerful symbol of injustice and underdevelopment. For many observers, and especially for those on the left, the seizures showed that pobladores could become more politically assertive and lay the revolutionary foundations for a more just society. During their mobilizations, housing activists adopted such mottos as “from the seizure of land to the seizure of society.”

      An example of how they view current low-cost housing in Chile comes from architect Alejandro Aravena, who has made some of his projects open-source.

      One of his projects is Villa Verde, which provides “incremental” housing. This project rehoused a community displaced by an earthquake, and after providing half a house, allows residents to fill in the remainder as resources and time allows.

      The development cost per unit of one of his projects is $USD 7,500.

      Our affordable homes are apparently $550,000.

    • saveNZ 2.3

      Yep I’m all for as much home ownership as possible.

      Interestingly the home ownership has dropped so much in the last 25 years in NZ. I wonder what caused that? sarc.

      Time to throw out neoliberalism! It’s a huge social failure!

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 3

    Glad this school have their heads screwed on. The truth is that nobody knows the effects of the HPV vaccine.


    University of Otago associate professor Marilyn Hibma says the HPV vaccine is “extremely effective” and “extremely safe”. Oh there is so much to say about that. Of course this type of bias is to be expected with a distinct absence of any research that has not funded by drug companies who ultimate benefit.

    Remember Jasmine Renata.

    • One Two 3.1

      Dr Helen Aspasia Petousis-Harris

      “The HPV vaccine is one of the most effective and safest vaccines ever developed. This is an established fact, backed by a phenomenal amount of international and local scientific research,” she said.

      That statement from a so called expert, whom, by some accounts could end up on trial in Japan

      Along with Denmark and even in the Uk,the damage has been recorded

      5-10 years until the curtain falls

    • McFlock 3.2

      Oh bullshit – as with every developed nation, NZ monitors drug and vaccine reactions as a matter of course. Nobody just says “oh, the drug company says it works? Right then, lets buy a few million doses and distribute it based only on that, and we won’t even bother monitoring efficacy and adverse events that might happen afterwards”.

      Unless you think everyone in the health system is a callous bastard who wants to inject kids with useless crap and then suppresses anything bad that happens afterwards, of course.

      Nobody’s perfect, but, shit…

      • Molly 3.2.1

        Gardasil is a vaccine specifically for four of the hundreds of HPV, and are not the only ones that can lead to cervical cancer.

        Despite the vaccination it is recommended that those vaccinated continue with regular smear tests that can lead to appropriate early and (most likely successful) intervention in the case of irregular cell development.

        My concern with this particular vaccine, is that those who have it are likely to avoid or delay regular smears on the assumption that they are already “protected”.

        Further problems arise, when the HPV strains that fill the niche left by the vaccinated strains are more malignant that those that have been replaced, or when people have already been exposed to those strains – leading to a higher rate of malignancy.

        Some of the comments on the stuff article, take the position that ALL vaccines are good, and ALL vaccines are necessary.

        If you consider the likelihood of contracting cervical cancer or genital warts, and the possibility of successful treatment, this vaccine fails in two ways:
        1. In some people can create an environment that predisposes you to cancer,
        2. Is likely to create a personal reassurance that means that many avoid regular checks, which then delays treatment if infection or cancer occurs. This reduces a near 100% successful treatment outcome to a lower one, depending on the delay.

        • McFlock

          lol mercola.
          That’s why it’s on the schedule for 12 year olds, not 20 year olds.

          As for the idea that the HPV one is a cure-all, that’s a fair point. It’s not fire-and-forget, but it does dramatically reduce the rates.

          Name a vaccine available in NZ that’s not good.

          Not all vaccines are necessary. The ones on the NZ schedule are necessary for people in NZ.

          • Molly

            (Mercola site has a link to article in the Journal of American Medical Association, but for the purposes of the comment the mercola link was more accessible.)

            You don’t comment about the possible repercussions to regular cervical smears. Many women I know, avoid them for as long as possible. It can be an uncomfortable and undignified procedure often done by complete strangers – unless you are lucky enough to have a long-standing relationship with an individual health care provider.

            The successful treatment of cervical cancer is close to 100% if caught early.

            Can’t find the current costs of the the current Gardasil programme, but I am not convinced that it is without critique, and a good spend of our health money. From the stuff article that refers to a rollout of 100,000 people at $450 each, an estimate would be $45,000,000.
            (Perhaps someone else can find the actual figure)

            • McFlock

              Like I said, that’s why it’s for young ‘uns. It’s not an argument against gardasil as such.

              As to the downstream effects, the number of women delaying their smears would need to increase dramatically to reach the efficacy of the vaccine. It might happen, but if it becomes a problem it can be compensated for with more advice/advertising.

              • Molly

                You provide no links to substantiate your assumptions.

                As you say, “Young ‘uns” are unlikely to develop cervical cancer or genital warts so it is almost a self-fulfilling efficacy prophecy using that cohort. There is no mention of the length of time for protection, and whether booster shots should be required. I did read at one stage that six years was the expected protection time. That means that the protection given to 12-14 year olds is no longer there when they are likely to be more sexually active at 18-20 years old.

                I’m guessing you haven’t researched this at all.

                Advice/advertising would add to the cost without necessarily being successful, and you have provided no cost/benefit analysis in all this – and neither does the government literature when promoting the uptake.

                • McFlock

                  I’ve read up a bit on gardasil, but I’m not paid to have intimate knowledge of every vaccine on the schedule. More general, my field is.

                  The thing is, we don’t know how long it will be effective for. That’s another thing ongoing monitoring is for. The original vaccine is only about ten years old so if your article that said “six years” was a few years old… there’s your answer. It works until it stops, so then they’ll have data on when to have boosters, like tetanus.

                • Johan

                  To Molly,
                  “I’m guessing you haven’t researched this at all”. You’re correct Molly, if you like to check his other posts, McFlock has very little knowledge about anything. However this doesn’t prevent him from continually running off his mouth. It seems that he likes the sound of his own opinions.

                  • McFlock

                    Some things I know a lot about.
                    Lots of things I have a nodding acquaintance with.

                    I’ll bow to experts on an issue, but not folks who seem to mouth off with even less knowledge than me, or who combine that with broad categorical statements and no evidence.

                    But in general I usually find that if you don’t throw out an opinion, it won’t be challenged. Even if we end up disagreeing, something interesting falls out of the discussion. At the very least I end up googling the fuck out of a random issue, rather relying on links that scream “nutbar”.

      • One Two 3.2.2

        Nobody just says “oh, the drug company says it works? Right then, lets buy a few million doses and distribute it based only on that..

        Yes, the FDA/ CDC do exactly that on a regular basis

        Conflict of interest and revolving doors ensure the practice will continue

        “..dramatically reduce the rates..”

        No test can substantiate your comment..NO Test

        Your comments are as uninformed as the author of the stuff article

        More reading needed for you, no more comments from me on this topic

        • McFlock

          No they don’t.
          Conflict of interest goes only so far.
          How’s that smallpox you’ve got – acting up again?
          Your comments are emitted from your colon.

          Good. Suck my balls, you pretentious moron.

        • tuppence shrewsbury

          How many kids die of measles, mumps or rubella these days? How many people suffer the ridiculously low quality of life those struck down by polio have to endure?

          More importantly, of the millions who are vaccinated, how many actually wind up with these side effects you claim with no actual scientific basis?

          I hope anti vaxxers get the exact disease they think they’re, and others, kids don’t need. Enforcing your beliefs on others with no thought to the consequences. hang your head in shame

          • One Two

            I’ll address your comment, but only one time, and using language you might have a chance to understand..

            1. Stop using the term anti-vax, it gives away your low level of critical thinking capabilities

            2. Don’t use polio or smallpox as shining examples, it gives away how little you’ve read about the history of vaccines and ‘germs’

            3. Do not ask where all the side effects sufferers are, because it gives you away as not having read at the even the shallowest of levels about documented cases globally. Nor do you know of the ‘vaccine court’ in The USA and other entities which have paid out billions in compensation

            4. Do not wish harm onto others..I’ll assume you’re clever enough to figure out why not to do this

            5. Being ignorant is not a positive

            • tuppence shrewsbury

              So you’ve given one pathetic example to back up all the slurs you’ve made against me. basically ACC through it’s “no-fault” basis. Hardly proof vaccines are detrimental to humans

              Typical of the anti-vax low lifes who believe in a pseudo science while enjoying all the gains of life made by the actual science of inoculating and protecting human populations against communicable diseases.

              Ignorance is when all the facts are right there in front of you, but you choose to believe a completely different set because of an extremely rare occurrence in one instance out of several million instances.

              being anti-vaccine = believing the earth is flat.

      • weka 3.2.3

        Oh bullshit – as with every developed nation, NZ monitors drug and vaccine reactions as a matter of course. Nobody just says “oh, the drug company says it works? Right then, lets buy a few million doses and distribute it based only on that, and we won’t even bother monitoring efficacy and adverse events that might happen afterwards”.

        What’s the process if I go to my GP and say I took x drug and had this reaction? Genuinely curious.

        • Carolyn_nth

          Medsafe and PHARMAC monitor reactions to drugs.

          I looked into this for my series of articles on the acne drug isotretinoin.

          I accessed some statistics for Suspected Medicine Adverse reactions (SMARS) for isotretinoin on the Medsafe website, by clicking on “I want to … search for adverse reactions to medicines”.

          It showed a range of adverse reactions were reported. However, these include a small number for most reactions. One criteria with the highest number of reported reactions was for “depression”. However, these statistics alone are inadequate for drawing any conclusions, the number averaging to about one report per year of a depression reaction. There is no indication of how this relates to the rate of isotretinoin use.

          Medical practitioners don’t always report adverse reactions as far as I could see. The stats show nurses are the most likely practitioners to report adverse reactions.

        • McFlock

          As a last ditch effort you can report it to CARM yourself, but your doctor should report it if there’s temporal plausibility or a reason to associate it (website). That’s one reason why they say to hang around for 20 minutes after a vaccination. But for a serious event that causes a hospitalisation, if the hospital or GP doesn’t report it there are also periodic studies comparing specific precriptions with hospitalisations/deaths.

          But the first step would be that the GP reports it to CARM where it’s reviewed by another clinician. If it’s a “maybe” it goes into the database and they see if similar issues start cropping up. If it’s a pretty well documented case that’s clearly associated, they might not wait for other events but actually start the process of looking for contraindications and reviewing its safety. There might be additional studies, or advisories distributed. Or it could be withdrawn completely until those further studies have been done.

          • Molly

            There can be some delays – which make it harder to determine whether it is the result of medication (vaccine or other) for both the patient and the doctor.

            One of my children, after childhood vaccinations went from a verbal to a non-verbal stage in development for a period of six months. Without any intensive and specific research, it would be hard to determine one way or the other whether this was related. So, incidents like this would never make it to the adverse reactions data.

            I know this is anecdoctal, but it shows the difficulty of relying on patient feedback to record reactions, especially when the results are not immediate (or within 20 minutes).

            My personal experience of relaying this information to my medical practitioner (the health nurse on reception) at a subsequent visit, was that it was not related. No chance of that making it to a national register when it is dismissed at that point.

            • McFlock

              Yeah, it does get iffy with more subtle or hard-to-quantify side effects.

              Funnily enough, I wouldn’t be surprised if all the research done to make absolutely sure that wakefield was a fraudulent piece of @$%^#$ has actually standardised some of the detection and classification tools related to developmental symptoms, not that it makes up for anything.

              That having been said, there are still lots of things we don’t know. We’re quite good if not outstanding at picking up big, sudden adverse events (e.g. needle in, patient drops dead). More subtle stuff needs work – even depression (as Carolyn linked to) can be controversial in both detection and assessing the appropriate level of response.

              It’s not perfect by any means, but nobody’s come up with a better system of identifying actual risks, rather than fears.

              • Molly

                Yeah, I agree – I recognise the flaws but can’t think of any practicable improvements that would be able to be quantified with good data collection practice.

                However, this makes it even more important to ensure that any medication/medical procedure is given with clear knowledge of cost/benefits side effects.

                I don’t believe this is the case at present, so there is work to do there as well.

                • McFlock

                  Well, we’re pretty solid on the pre-cancerous lesions front, and the serious or immediate adverse events is almost zip. It’s a pretty clear window – but then I’m always of the perspective “good enough” is better than “perfect”, because “perfect” always takes too damned long.

                  It’s always a perspective that bemuses the academics I work with on occasion, but I tend to work quicker than they do, so they pay me lol

            • Carolyn_nth

              On researching isotretinoin, I found that the company that started marketing it for acne, hid some of the adverse reactions showing in their research. It was only after time and some public agitation that the adverse reactions got taken seriously.

              I also saw that CARM, PHARMAC and Medsafe tended to follow the findings from overseas research as it developed, rather than doing much proactive research of their own – other than gathering stats.

          • weka

            Thanks McFlock. Re vaccines, I haven’t followed recently, but back in the day, well before the whole MMR thing, one of the concerns of grassroots groups was that there was seriously inadequate reporting of adverse effects. Given the polarisation of the vaccine debate and the reluctance to talk about side effects now, I’m not going to assume it’s better (it might be different).

            Essentially what you are saying is that GPs are the gate keepers on what is considered a reasonable understating of adverse effect, which means that there will be a wide variation in reporting across GPs and clinics.

            I was also curious about other drugs. Are you saying that if someone comes back to their GP after starting to take something like statins, and says they have muscle pain and weakness (a relatively well known side effect) that the GP will go through a process of reporting that officially every time? I’ve not come across anyone saying they’ve had that happen. Does Medsafe or whoever keep a public resource for that?

            • McFlock

              The patient probably knows f-all of all the paperwork that goes on in any given practise, frankly.

              GPs have proforma reporting for a whole bunch of stuff, some of it being required (e.g. notifiable disease) and others as merely “if you see X, please tell us”.

              Some of the groups gathering reports use online tools like CARM (anyone can use that one), others work through clinical networks, while still others send most likely observers (e.g. GPs) regular updates on the latest criteria they’re seeking to have reported. Sometimes it’s down to the specific condition, for others it might be looking for broad symptom clusters that might have multiple possible causes (e.g. flaccid paralysis meeting certain criteria for polio).

              Reporting might be just numbers, or could be full patient history and identifiers.

              Not many people realise that the Health Act gives some health monitoring bodies more search and information demanding powers than the police (with serious penalties for breaching privacy/ethics/security). I once shared a cubicle farm with researchers for one unit and had to do background checks and sign criminal liability for disclosure forms, and get an accreditation, simply on the offchance that I’d overhear something. Closest I got was signing for an envelope to pass on to them.

    • The Chairman 3.3

      “Remember Jasmine Renata.”


      This statement below doesn’t align with the findings further below.

      University of Otago School of Medicine associate professor department of pathology Marilyn Hibma said the vaccine was made up of benign proteins that formed the outside of the virus, which naturally assembled as a virus like particle in the human body.

      “It looks to our body like the virus itself, but it’s not the virus because it doesn’t contain the viral DNA, it doesn’t even contain all the components of the natural virus particle.

      “All you are being injected with is a protein and an adjuvant, a substance to help the body respond to the protein, otherwise its so inert the body wouldn’t bother responding to it.”


      Yet , Neuroscientist Professor Christopher Shaw of the University of Columbia in Vancouver told the inquest there was aluminium in all the samples he tested and there were some abnormalities in the samples.

      Prof Shaw said the human papillomavirus (HPV16) was found in her brain, which could have only got there through the vaccine.


  3. Andre 4

    The quick checklist of the Chump’s progress. For the marks he successfully conned…


  4. dv 5


    A quick calc 350*100@365 = 12,775,000

    Yep 12 mill per year

  5. saveNZ 6

    Staff cuts at Waikato University ‘part of a downward spiral’


    Bizarrely with the changes in technology it’s the creative subjects and people who are creative, that are going to be needed as they can’t be replicated by technology.

  6. rhinocrates 7

    A class analysis of the United Airlines’ Cartman-esque approach to overbooking:


    If you’re a member of the creative class who rarely does business in the nation’s industrial heartland or visits relatives there, you might not notice the magnitude of economic disruption being caused by lost airline service and skyrocketing fares. But if you are in the business of making and trading stuff beyond derivatives and concepts, you probably have to go to places like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Memphis, St. Louis, or Minneapolis, and you know firsthand how hard it has become to do business these days in such major heartland cities, which are increasingly cut off from each other and from the global economy.

    The video that made its way across the internet today is what “getting worse” looks like. Here’s the thing: when you support trickle-down economic policies that put profits before people, this is what you get. Low-wage jobs, deregulation, and tax cuts for huge corporations result in a culture in which businesses enjoy a tremendous amount of power over ordinary citizens.

  7. John up North 8

    NZ corrupt free since…………..

    Well we’ve all seen the sterling work being carried out in Christchurch by the wonderful, helpful folks at CERA. I myself am hearing nothing but good news from the many bastions of good news and choose not to believe any of that grandstanding from the likes of Erin Broka-whatsit (I’m sure that’s not her real hair colour!)

    This unfortunately looks like an aberration and I’m feeling for these guys as they have been unfairly put in the spotlight (defamation maybe???) and that “allegations of any criminality were completely unfounded”.


    It’s all a big mistake and mostly due some stupid officials that didn’t do their job proper like.

    “Coming from a business background, we have pursued various business interests since before joining CERA, and these interests were fully disclosed to CERA.

    “In fact, CERA hired us because they needed our extensive private business networks, knowledge and commercial expertise – expertise and connections that CERA did not have.

    “They chose not to advise us there was a potential conflict. We acknowledge we should have declared what we were doing in writing.”

    See what I mean? These poor blokes just trying to make a living were using all the resources they had available, nothing more, no corruption here. Just those other stopid officials at CERA “chose not to advise us there was a potential conflict”

    I rest my case…………. NZ corrupt free since foreva!

    • Draco T Bastard 8.1


    • John up North 8.2

      oh err….. maybe I spoke too soon?

      Maybe, just maybe there are one or two or possibly more CERA staff that have been caught up in this malicious, gossip and rumor stirring regarding blokes just trying to be entrepreneurial and all.


      I mean they weren’t just sitting around at home bludging the dole while smoking bongs and being lazy an idle and all.

      Like they were working hard out at 40+ hour full time jobs with perks like holiday pay and redundancy clauses and paid sick days and probably a supplied vehicle and clothing allowances for all that PPE for visiting those homes people couldn’t live in cause the were fucked, opps being assessed.

      We’re all told you got to get ahead and that making money is more important than maybe helping other people get “their” shit sorted by doing your job proper like in a reasonable time frame and all.

      But you know, you see an opportunity maybe a slight gap in the market……. a bloke would be stoopid not to seize it and maybe squeeze as much money as possible out of it, I mean that’s just being aspirational, isn’t it? And we’ve been told for years that we need to work harder, be entrepreneurial and aspirational and all that.

      I mean one bloke working for a company and texting his mate to buy those shares on the market is just wrong, I mean that’s insider trading. But a bloke working for a company or government department or such, just using his own skills, and expertise and contacts and market nous and maybe a little knowledge from his day job, you know like, having the brilliance to combine all that and create a gem of an idea that can grow into a grand money making business, well that’s umm, I mean that’s errr, it’s…..it’s …… it’s aspirational that’s what it is!! == Aspirational ==

      And really if we’re working from this rational

      “He says some of the individuals who were found to have erred have given, as part their defence, that this was going on elsewhere in the department.

      “They have given us specific instances of that and we are looking at that.”

      I mean these blokes are working with a “team” of aspirational people!! Why, that’s a good thing surely??

      I mean black-listing these blokes from ever working again for a Govt department, or Local Govt department or a subsidiary of these ever again would not be a good idea, I mean we NEED all the ASPIRATIONAL people we can get! Shirley!!

      NZ corrupt free since…………. oh and if no-one decides to press charges or such…. gee wizz we remain corrupt free!! hooray!

  8. Bill 9

    Oh dear. Know those moments when you speak the truth and you know you really, really shouldn’t be saying what you’re saying but can’t see a way to cover it, back away from it, or deflect away from it?

    Here’s Sean Spicer.


    He’s talking about a sovereign nation with a democratically elected parliament and contested presidential elections folks.

    • adam 9.1

      For flip flopping on Syria by the USA establishment – Watching the hawks from RT America. Mentioning it from RT so the wet’s don’t lose it.

  9. heman 10

    Stop the Pt Eng Dev Bill!

    • fisiani 10.1

      Pt England development will provide hundreds of houses. Why do the Left bleat for more houses yet oppose every housing development?

      • heman 10.1.1

        It’s a public reserve. Protected by the Reserves Act 1977. This Bill overrides this for one. ~300 or so houses yes, but a negligible effect in the grand scheme of things, at the cost of a public reserve.
        Why do you use labels (Left)? I don’t think it’s that simple.
        Address the issue. Agree with more houses. Build up, build out, but don’t infill.

      • mauī 10.1.2

        So you want to break foundational urban planning rules like not building in parks to solve a housing problem of your own making? Seriously how far off the reservation is that thinking. Next you’ll be having a hissyfit over under used auckland hospital wards not being turned into flats or Room 3 from the high school not housing extended families.

        • Ad

          Twyford needs to show he has the Ministerial steel to face locals down if he’s going to implement 10,000 new houses a year.

          Fine to pander in opposition, but he needs to show he has what it takes. It’s always ugly governing out of crisis, and he needs to show he k owe that.

          • fisiani

            You either want houses or you don’t The NIMBY’s need to be ignored.

            • heman

              maybe it was NIMBY’s that protected some of the well known public reserves around today? e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_Domain

              Has anyone who commented read the website? I don’t want to come across as condescending but I’d appreciate if you would then I would know I am talking to someone who is informed.

              this is part of the govt crown land programme
              9 sites delivering ~1500 houses. This is the 9th site and the first that is a public reserve site. Other sites have been unwanted medical/transport crown land as far as I know, but I think there was less obstacles in the way there compared with here. But the numbers just don’t make sense in this case for what is at stake, not to mention the process they are using to fast track it.

              And the govt is also using the treaty claim to futher support their case to rezone the land. So while some will look on with interest, I will be looking on longterm with fear of the precedent that this bill sets. It will be interesting to see.

            • Molly

              “You either want houses or you don’t”
              Are you suggesting that we appropriate all unoccupied houses currently being hoarded unused by property speculars, and undeveloped residentially zoned land for the purposes of providing both immediate and planned housing for all members of our country?

              Well done, Fisiani – didn’t know you had it in your programming.

              (and before anyone else spits the dummy about private property, reserves are also property – but owned by the collective rather than the individual. It should be much harder than it is to take)

              • heman

                you know it’s not that black and white
                I want houses but not at the expense of public reserves. They were put aside for a reason. Particularly in this case. For instance why is this development plonked right in the middle of the reserve? That seems to benefit the developer more so. Why not build houses around the edge, keeping a great big space in the middle? But now I am into the detail. Detail that would/should probably be covered if due process was followed, but in this case it is not.

                re the “property speculars”, you might get more than 300 houses my at the very least looking at that policy if this article is anything to go by http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11676319
                Would hat not be a better win-win?

                • heman

                  Let me ask,
                  what will this bill achieve? ~300 houses yes,of which ~20% social, 20% affordable which I think is a good thing. A loss of a public reserve from its current state. You will argue that enough public reserve space is left.

                  After all that is done, will the housing crisis be over? will Auckland be more affordable? Will there still be people sleeping in cars?

                  To me, the loss of public reserve far outweighs any of these negligible benefits. Especially when I feel the govt has not looked at alternatives.

                • Molly

                  Sorry, tongue in cheek response to Fisiani.

                  (Read your link, and signed the petition.)

                  • heman

                    Thanks for reading and thanks for signing.
                    but what good the petition will do, it really needs to be in the ~100’s of thousands I think for the govt to actually sit up and listen, but it must be at least tried.

                    That’s the thing with this bill is the actual opportunity for participating in the whole process is limited to select committee stage and then whatever lobbying you do ringing and emailing MPs. This is jsut another reason, of the many, it stinks. Because it central govt imposing itself on us, that is all new zealand not just the locals that are more directly affected. This govt needs to know that we have a voice and not just every 3 years around election time.

                    • Molly

                      You are talking to someone who is cynical about the consultation process making a difference, after going through the long drawn-out debacle of the Unitary Plan.

                      I agree with your premise that there is little to be achieved by individuals using current consultation processes. But kudos to those that have the energy to do so, and by the signing the petition, maybe that helps them to continue.

            • AB

              Protecting green spaces isn’t NIMBYism. The test is whether you support protecting green spaces you don’t and will probably never use because they are not in your local area. i.e. you want to protect then because they are an intrinsically good thing.
              What we really don’t want is crappy planning, rampant speculation and excessive immigration that reaches a point of such crisis that our green spaces have to be chewed up.

    • Whispering Kate 10.2

      Have just spent time with a friend from Melbourne, she has been living there for 10 years. One thing she observed while here was the absence of green spaces in the city. She said in Melbourne there are public spaces all over the city with room for families to have barbecues, barbecues were set up ready for use, there were pergolas for shade and room for family cricket etc. She said they were used all the time. I have observed this as well here, we have large playing fields for clubs but not smaller areas set aside for people to be able to picnic and enjoy the outdoors.

      Where I live in Auckland every bit of spare green space that can be found is built on, even ridiculous spaces where architects have to put their thinking caps on to find a plan which suits the space. Parks and reserves are there as lungs for the city as well – everything about city planning is crap here, we have no vision at all.

      • Molly 10.2.1

        We have a history of parks and reserves being mainly active sports fields. It seems to be very easy to get rugby fields or netball courts, as opposed to social community spaces.

        This may be partly a historical leftover from quarter-acre sections, where we mostly had green spaces around our houses for back-yard cricket, and tennis on the driveway. But it is continued with our houses built for entertaining and we don’t immediately perceive the loss to the individual, and the community by not having local, community social spaces.

        “… everything about city planning is crap here, we have no vision at all.”
        Agree wholeheartedly on this point.

  10. adam 11

    So it’s now coming public. The Libor rate was fixed, not to make banks to look strong, but to rip you off.

    Caught on tape



    Here is a basic, analysis of libor from wikipedia


    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      The Libor rate was fixed, not to make banks to look strong, but to rip you off.

      That was obvious from the beginning. The private banks had the power to rip off nations to increase profits and they did. Such actions by the banks always happened throughout history and is why, until recently, we kept putting stronger and stronger regulations on them.

      The other point we should be learning is that individuals cannot hold corporations or even small businesses to account. Only government can do that and they’ve abrogated that responsibility over the last few decades seemingly because business wanted them to.

      • adam 11.1.1

        No, what we are learning is that capitalism is a failed economic model, with to many opportunities to let debase aspects of human nature take the forefront. States and governments can’t regulate it, it just mutates until it wiggles out from any control back towards monopoly, greed and destruction.

  11. Karen 12

    For anyone interested in finding out about one of the new Labour Party candidates the wonderful Kiri Allan has a piece up on the Spinoff. I’m hoping she gets a high list position as she is exactly the sort of person we need in parliament.

    http://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/11-04-2017/kiri-allan-on-standing-in-the-east-coast-where-times-are-hard-and-the-people-shine/ the Edgecombe situation

    It is also good for info about the Edgecombe situation and how it is affecting people in the area.

  12. greywarshark 13

    Some highlights from australias 2016 census:

    A profile of the average Australian women was that she was 38 and lived in a three bedroomed home with a mortage and a family. Nice, they don’t have a housing problem there? Or is this average business similar to holding up the rug and sweeping the unwanted dross under before dropping it onto a clean and tidy level playing field?

    The bureau also released profiles for each state and territory, and defined the ‘typical’ indigenous Australian and person born overseas.

    While the ‘typical’ age in most states was 37 or 38, the ordinary Tasmanian was 42, while Northern Territorians and Canberrans were much younger, at 34 and 35 respectively.

    The ‘typical’ Aboriginal or Torres Islander, is a woman, but significantly younger at 23 years old.
    The Northern Territory was the only place were the ‘typical’ person was unmarried.

    Although the most common home has three bedrooms, Western Australians are more likely to enjoy one extra bedroom.

    The census also confirmed Australia’s growing cultural diversity, finding that in Western Australia, Victoria and New South Wales, the ‘typical’ Australian had one parent that was born overseas.

    The ‘typical migrant’ was a 44-year-old born in England, but in Queensland they were more likely to be from New Zealand, in Victoria from India, and New South Wales migrants were most commonly from China.
    Changing demographics

    McCrindle Research demographer Eliane Miles said that Australia’s cultural diversity was one of the key takeaways from the data.

    That migrants in New South Wales and Victoria were most likely to be from China and India, rather than England, showed “the changing demographic in our cities and our closeness to Asia”, she said.

    Ms Miles said the younger ‘typical’ age in the ACT reflected its wealth of young professionals, while the older median age in Tasmania was fuelled by low population growth.

    “That means low migration. Migrants tend to have a younger age than the average Australian,” she said.

    Last year’s census was dogged by technical issues, including a lengthy online outage, which authorities said cost the government an extra $30 million.
    Ms Miles said the full census data, which will be released on June 27, will be vital for policy makers examining areas such as the distribution of the GST receipts.

    “It will also be used for planning so that government departments can make decisions about infrastructure, like where hospitals, or roads or schools should be built,” she said.

    Small Business Business Michael McCormack said the 2016 census had a preliminary response rate of around 96 per cent, which he said was on par with the 2006 census and the 2011 census.

    He said more than 58 per cent of Australians completed their census online, an increase of 2.2 million households compared to 2011.

    (Note this wonderful efficient and advanced technology to gain this useful snapshot of Australia with bits to crow about, and some to carpet, cost an extra [ie over-budget] $30 million. What was it going to cost before the blow-out then?

    And wouldn’t it be better to do it the old fashioned way and pay reliable people, who I am sure are still around, to go out and distribute and pick up the forms. Or do we want to reduce all activity to machines?
    Remember the song written in the 1960s – Zager and Evans. In the year 2525.

  13. adam 14

    Remember internationalism? Use to be a thing on the left.

  14. ianmac 15

    Since this was mentioned earlier today:
    “The judge presiding over the Colin Craig defamation case says a ” miscarriage of justice has occurred”.

    Justice Sarah Katz said in a decision released today that damages awarded against former Conservative Party leader Craig were “well outside the range that could reasonably have been justified in all the circumstances of the case”.

  15. The Chairman 16

    “Climate change again?”

    The climate has been changing since day dot.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  16. Muttonbird 17

    Well, it looks like the 9th floor of the beehive is going to keep pushing this case in the hope of distracting Andrew Little.


    Dirty Politics.

    • adam 17.1

      Dirty crappy politics.

      These are the people that begged money off the government. They really should let it rest, and stop being such poor losers.

  17. greywarshark 18

    This from No Right Turn
    Past the tipping point
    How bad are our rivers and lakes? Past the tipping point, according to the Prime Minister’s chief scientist: (Sir Peter Gluckman)

    The state of some of the country’s waterways have gone beyond a tipping point, according to a report from the Prime Minister’s chief scientist.

    Some will take more than 50 years to recover, and even then they will never get back to their original state.

    The report said the science was clear: New Zealand’s fresh waters were under stress because of what we did in and around them.

    There’s more in the Herald, and the big culprits are urban expansion (from stormwater and industrial waste), and intensive agriculture (from cowshit and fertiliser runoff). Given that agriculture employs only 6% of the workforce, I think its clear who is having a disproportionate effect here.

    We need to clean up our rivers. Towns and cities have a role to play, but the primary cause of contamination is farmers, and that’s where the burden should lie. And if it drives dirty farmers out of business, so much the better for our environment.

    Posted by Idiot/Savant at 4/12/2017 01:41:00 PM Links to this post

    I listened to Sir Dr Peter Gluckman on Radionz this a.m. and had the feeling that he had made an accurate report but resiled from describing the awfulness of it on radio.
    In a measured voice, he stated that things were being remedied etc. and the tone of his voice was ‘steady as she goes’. But the quotes from the report were alarming.

    Why is he the government’s chief scientist? His background seems to be strongly connected with children, human medicine – is that wide enough?:
    Born in Auckland, he attended Auckland Grammar School before studying paediatrics and endocrinology at the University of Otago gaining a MBChB in 1971. This was followed by MMedSc in 1976 and a DSc in 1987 from the University of Auckland.

    He is the Professor of Paediatric and Perinatal Biology and was the Director of the National Research Centre for Growth and Development (now called ‘Gravida: National Centre for Growth and Development’), hosted by the University of Auckland, until mid 2009.[3]
    He was formerly Head of the Department of Paediatrics and Dean of the university’s Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences as well as the founding Director of the Liggins Institute.
    In 2007 he was appointed Programme Director for Growth, Development and Metabolism at the Singapore Institute for Clinical Sciences. He also holds honorary chairs at National University of Singapore and the University of Southampton.

    In 2009 he was appointed the first Chief Science Advisor to the Prime Minister of New Zealand, and in 2014, co-chair of the World Health Organization Commission on Ending Childhood Obesity (ECHO).[4]

    In August 2014, in Auckland, New Zealand, he hosted and chaired the Science Advice to Governments Conference, convened by the International Council for Science (ICSU). It was the first global meeting of high-level science advisors.[5]
    He is the only New Zealander elected to the Institute of Medicine of the United States National Academies of Science and a Fellow of Academy of Medical Sciences of Great Britain.

  18. Morrissey 19

    The compassion of that great humanitarian Maj. Gen. Yoav Mordechai


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