Open Mike 12/06/2017

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1. Ed 1

   12 June 2017 at 6:20 am

   ‘Labour AHEAD of Tories by six points in stunning new poll as public say Theresa May should resign.

   Jeremy Corbyn would be Prime Minister if an election was held tomorrow, according to the pollster which most accurately predicted Thursday’s election result.

   A new poll by Survation puts Labour six points ahead of the Tories on 45% of the vote.
   The Tories, meanwhile, polled 39% – almost four points below their result in the general election.
   It is the first time since Theresa May took power that any poll has put Labour ahead of the Conservatives.’

   http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/most-accurate-pollster-suggests-labour-10602762
   • Ed 1.1

     12 June 2017 at 6:35 am

     And the good news keeps coming……

     Richard Burgon
     “In last 3 days, 150,000 people have joined Labour. We now have 800,000 members. Great news! Let’s make it a million! ”

     ‘Just days after the election, Labour has received two bits of very good news. Firstly, its membership has surged to a stunning 800,000. Secondly, a new poll suggests that, were there to be another general election, Labour would now beat the Conservatives by a country mile.
     By the end of the New Labour era, Labour’s membership had dropped to just over 150,000. Now Corbyn has attracted that number of new members in just three days:
     The party, already the largest social democratic one in Europe, now has 800,000 – and has the million mark in its sights.’

     https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/11/labour-good-news-corbyn-surge-ballistic/
2. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 2

   12 June 2017 at 6:31 am

   Bugger! I’ll have to stop watching The Canary! Far too much unrealistic enthusiasm! Far too much fallacious hope!

   Back home: it is a truism that Opposition Parties don’t win elections, Government Parties lose them.

   Well, come September, enough centrist voters might, just might, change their votes to give the Labour/Greens enough seats to continue doing the same as National, only in a nicer, friendlier way. Neoliberalism with a smiling face!

   A million people still will not bother voting, but there will be a small surge of hope when a Labour/Green administration, with necessary support from NZ First, becomes government. Nothing much else will change, of course, but we’ll all feel momentarily better.

   Oh, they’ll do their best to put a dent in some of the big issues the election was fought on. But, apart from those efforts, nothing fundamental will be any different! The poor might be better cared for, but the rich will still get richer!

   And the rampant enthusiasm expressed above will carry us on to victory. Wah!

   Man, there are goals worth making an effort for! I’m all fired up! I feel inspired! Not quite like Corbyn inspired the left in the UK, but hey, this is NZ after all. We don’t do passion – except in sport.
   • Ed 2.1

     12 June 2017 at 6:38 am

     And isn’t Jonathan Pie brilliant?

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hGAP7b4zW8
   • garibaldi 2.2

     12 June 2017 at 8:09 am

     Nice rant TV, but “neoliberalism with a smiling face” just won’t cut it anymore.
     This British election proves that Labour has to turn left.
     • BM 2.2.1

       12 June 2017 at 8:13 am

       The British election doesn’t prove shit.

       Are 90% of the people who post here ex-poms or something? guys NZ is not at all like the UK completely different country and attitudes.
       • ScottGN 2.2.1.1

         12 June 2017 at 8:19 am

         Same issues bubbling to the surface though with respect to young people. The burden of student loan debt, housing affordability and the declining prospects of home-ownership, a sense that they’re getting screwed in some generational war where older voters have circled the wagons around all their entitlements and bugger everyone else.
         • BM 2.2.1.1.1

           12 June 2017 at 8:37 am

           a sense that they’re getting screwed in some generational war where older voters have circled the wagons around all their entitlements and bugger everyone

           That’s just some left wing bullshit meme you guys are trying to cultivate in an attempt to get the youth voting left.

           Probably one of the nastier political strategies the left are involved in, up there with the race baiting.
           • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.1.1.1

             12 June 2017 at 8:47 am

             As usual, the Right projecting its own behaviour.

             NZ baby boomers are building a banana republic, and no one gives a shit

             Rimmer.
             • BM …

               12 June 2017 at 9:01 am

               Rimmer trying to get the ACT party vote above the margin of error.
               • One Anonymous Bloke …

                 12 June 2017 at 9:10 am

                 No, you were right, I was wrong: here’s Labour spokesperson Patrick Gower to explain.
                 • BM …

                   12 June 2017 at 12:33 pm

                   Gower is a troll.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.2

         12 June 2017 at 8:27 am

         If people here are so wildly different, how come the National Party uses the same right wing talking points as the Conservatives?
         • ScottGN 2.2.1.2.1

           12 June 2017 at 9:26 am

           In fact how come they use the same strategists?
           • Wayne 2.2.1.2.1.1

             12 June 2017 at 9:36 am

             From what I can see National doesn’t have the same approach as the Conservatives.

             They are campaigning from fundamentally a better economic base, so no emphasis on fear.

             But there is the real issue of younger people finding it harder to buy a house, especially in Auckland.

             Bill English also looks much more comfortably connected to the electorate than Theresa May.
             • bwaghorn …

               12 June 2017 at 9:40 am

               yeah because he can shear a sheep and make shit pizza and and …..
               • marty mars …

                 12 June 2017 at 9:57 am

                 Exactly, Bill English doesnt have it, never had it, and he wont get it.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   12 June 2017 at 9:59 am

                   Bill’s the darling of his mother’s network.
               • AB …

                 12 June 2017 at 3:39 pm

                 …and tell us we are “pretty useless” and rort his housing allowance for a sum greater than the median wage.
                 He’s a dull and depressing ex-Treasury ideologue – Don Brash without the charisma.
                 Truly – I really mean that last bit – Don was riveting because you never knew if he was about to say something totally insane.
             • ScottGN …

               12 June 2017 at 9:43 am

               You reckon? It depends which electorate you’re talking about I guess.
             • Carolyn_nth …

               12 June 2017 at 9:43 am

               They are campaigning from fundamentally a better economic base, so no emphasis on fear.

               Unless you’re a beneficiary or one of the precariously employed, or just low income.

               Edit: of course, what they campaign on, and how they perform in government are not the same things.
             • Bill …

               12 June 2017 at 9:44 am

               Not meaning to distract you here Wayne. But back in April you posted comments relating to a Tory surge in Scotland. (I, me – egg on my face over that one 😉 ). But given that elsewhere you readily admit to being too far way to have any insight into UK politics, and given that the Tories in Scotland could have been counted on a careless sawmill worker’s remaining fingers since the 1980s…just wondering if there’s anything any little birdies told you that you might want to share?
             • Robert Guyton …

               12 June 2017 at 10:04 am

               “From what I can see National doesn’t have the same approach as the Conservatives.”
               Something’s changed then. They used to be Tweedledum and Tweedledee, shaped by Crosby/Textor and sharing ideas like old school chums – at least they were when I saw the video-link between the two parties at a Blue/Green meeting – those Tory chaps and ours were full of bonhomie (and other stuff but that’s another matter).
               • Robert Guyton …

                 12 June 2017 at 10:06 am

                 Oh, and Lord Ashcroft.
             • Stuart Munro …

               12 June 2017 at 10:18 am

               ‘They are campaigning from a fundamentally better economic base.’

               It didn’t have to be that way Wayne, NZ’s economy could have been as strong as Britain’s if that braindead moron Bill English had grown the productive sector instead of relabeling real estate inflation and migrant capital inflows as growth.

               The Gnats have been a shamefully lazy as well as a corrupt and socially backward government.
               • Wayne …

                 12 June 2017 at 10:28 am

                 The NZ economy, on any objective measure, is doing better than the UK and has done so for years. I think you will find even NZ Labour admits that.
                 This shows up in the “right direction/wrong direction” polls. In NZ has been positive for years, in the UK it has been negative.
                 Of course in MMP that is no guarantee for the government. Even with National at 47% the govt only has a one seat majority.
                 So it is all up in the air.
                 • Stuart Munro …

                   12 June 2017 at 10:37 am

                   You persist in trying to reinforce your fiction – objective measures like the inflation adjusted cost of living obviously form no part of your calculations.

                   The Gnat ‘strong economy’ is an artifact constructed from spurious data which has no basis in reality.

                   Slow immigration with its attendant capital inflows and the illusion will fade away overnight.

                   You’ve made a complete fuck of it.

                   Balance of payments gives the lie to all your nonsense.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   12 June 2017 at 11:59 am

                   The NZ economy, on any objective measure, is doing better than the UK and has done so for years.

                   Only in the minds of the delusional who deny the ever increasing poverty that present policies produce because a few people are getting richer.

                   I think you will find even NZ Labour admits that.

                   If so then it would show their own disconnection from reality.
                   • Enough is Enough …

                     12 June 2017 at 1:06 pm

                     Yes – but it still doing better than the UK where the Tories have made deeper cuts than here, and seen unemployment grow a lot higher.

                     Not saying New Zealand is good. Just pointing out that the UK has been hit harder by the rabid Conservative Government.
             • Gabby …

               12 June 2017 at 11:28 am

               His don’t really give a shit attitude certainly resonates.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.3

         12 June 2017 at 8:41 am

         NZ is not at all like the UK completely different country and attitudes.

         He says of a country that once prided itself on being more British than the British.

         We still haven’t got rid of that cultural cringe factor.
         • BM 2.2.1.3.1

           12 June 2017 at 8:44 am

           Nah, long gone.

           We’re about as similar to the UK as the Canadians are to the USA.
           • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.3.1.1

             12 June 2017 at 8:51 am

             “…how come the National Party uses the same right wing talking points as the Conservatives?”

             Why can I find all your opinions in The Daily Mail?
           • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.3.1.2

             12 June 2017 at 11:49 am

             Nope, still pretty much in place. You can tell by the fact that some people complain about the use of Māori names for the islands that we inhabit.

             It’s not as bad as it once was but it is still there.
       • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.4

         12 June 2017 at 8:42 am

         “The British election doesn’t prove shit.”

         You’re going to have to squeal louder, BM. The sound of NZ’s left wing’s joyous celebrating is making such wheedles as yours all but impossible to hear.
         • Alan 2.2.1.4.1

           12 June 2017 at 8:47 am

           Did i miss something? Did Labour UK win the election and Jeremy Corbyn is British PM for the next 5 years and is about to implement all his policies?
           No?
           Thought not
           • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.4.1.1

             12 June 2017 at 8:52 am

             Did you miss something, Alan?
             Oh yes, you did.
             Here’s a helpful clue. Millions of left wingers are revived, empowered, expectant and celebrating. Watch out!
           • greywarshark 2.2.1.4.1.2

             12 June 2017 at 8:56 am

             Alan
             Sorry TS doesn’t supply a nice simple explanation for political behaviour so that it is easy to understand. Did you understand that? No. Thought not. More thought by you is needed as for all of us. It is complex.
           • ScottGN 2.2.1.4.1.3

             12 June 2017 at 9:23 am

             It may well be that Jeremy Corbyn does become PM and perhaps sooner rather than later. In the meantime though he’s best to sit back and let the Tories go to town on each other.
         • BM 2.2.1.4.2

           12 June 2017 at 8:55 am

           Why would the left be celebrating Labour not getting decimated in the UK election?

           Seriously how does that help the NZ Labour party?, apart from a few political junkies who frequent boards such as this one or Kiwiblog, no one even knew there was an election in the UK or even cared.

           These days the UK has about as much relevance to NZ as Madagascar
           • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1.4.2.1

             12 June 2017 at 8:59 am

             Which is why the National Party parrots right wing talking points conceived in Madagascar.
             • AB …

               12 June 2017 at 3:55 pm

               Obviously they already have a brighter future in Madagascar!
               What do they call it?
               Are they “on the cusp of a brighter present”
           • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.4.2.2

             12 June 2017 at 9:02 am

             Why would the left be celebrating, BM?
             Puzzling for you, isn’t it!
             They are though, really cock-a-hoop, the lot of them!
             Maybe they’ve enjoyed a success that you just can’t see.
             I’m sure though, you wish them well in their happiness.
             After all, they’re just ordinary folk, like you.
             • Ethica …

               12 June 2017 at 1:18 pm

               Yay, neoliberalism is dead. Socialism is electorally popular, particularly with young people. Lots to celebrate.
           • marty mars 2.2.1.4.2.3

             12 June 2017 at 9:47 am

             Based on that logic BM why are you going on about it? No one cares, it’s not relevant and so on.

             Sure a lot of UKians are still very attached to their old country and comment accordingly – not really a surprise and sure it can be irritating ☺

             For me this election have given me some hope. And in these days hope is worth a lot mate.
           • mauī 2.2.1.4.2.4

             12 June 2017 at 2:12 pm

             Just to clarify the people who frequent this blog and the other one are people like yourself and chuck and blade steaks.
             • Robert Guyton …

               12 June 2017 at 2:29 pm

               Chuck & Blade – nice spotting, mauī. “Blade” had me guessing and I didn’t.
     • Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 2.2.2

       12 June 2017 at 8:29 am

       Garibaldi:
       My point exactly!
       • garibaldi 2.2.2.1

         12 June 2017 at 12:11 pm

         Right on TV.
         Sorry about that, but it certainly brought out the right wing apologists. They just don’t get it. It is inconceivable to them that Jeremy is on to something decent.
3. Ed 3

   12 June 2017 at 6:43 am

   However,The Guardian cannot be trusted.

   http://theguardian.fivefilters.org/?v1
   • Ed 3.1

     12 June 2017 at 6:44 am

     Although, Owen Jones has been invigorated after his mea culpa

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLTYmWuFco1_00S6qzWXnoALU9kT_q1yuD&v=9UlU2vMSpQE
4. AsleepWhileWalking 4

   12 June 2017 at 8:28 am

   https://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/109221/why-markets-overdue-gigantic-bust

   Global economic growth is weak, has been weak, and will continue to be weak for many reasons. Not least of which is the massive overhanging piles of accumulated debt across the global economy, which are very growth unfriendly.

   As Professor Steve Keen has shown, if your debt grows at 10%, and this enables your economy to grow at 5%, anything less than a more rapid rate of credit growth in the future will cause your economy to contract.

   Said another way, as long as you can grow your debts at a faster pace than your income — forever — you’ll never have to experience another economic downturn.

   That statement right there, lays bare the entire ridiculousness of everything the central banks have, and are currently trying to engineer.

   Eventually, reality always catches up
   • Draco T Bastard 4.1

     12 June 2017 at 8:49 am

     Eventually, reality always catches up

     Eventually, but the capitalists will try kicking the can down the road for awhile more yet.
5. te reo putake 5

   12 June 2017 at 8:38 am

   I wrote a post, Deportee, in December 2015 about a young man who was send here from Oz, despite having no close family, no friends, no links in NZ.

   The inevitable has happened.

   If any readers want to help the family get Matt’s body home to Oz there is now a fundraising page.

   https://www.gofundme.com/bring-matty-home

   Any donation, no matter how small, will help end Matt’s story on a good note.

   The original post can be found here: https://thestandard.org.nz/deportee/

   An updated version is here: https://tereoputake.wordpress.com/2017/06/08/death-of-a-deportee/

   Cheers, TRP.
   • greywarshark 5.1

     12 June 2017 at 8:52 am

     I read your story yesterday TRP. It was very affecting. He was a rough diamond, had work, was an employer, had family and was sent into exile by the Australians on spurious grounds. Totally medieval. I’m putting something in wish I could give more. Everyone deserves fair treatment, and just treatment, this chap had neither.

     And Gerry Brownlee’s bulk is all marshmallow. This morning on Radionz he didn’t have much to say about how OZ needs to behave with respect to we NZrs. Just a bunch of excuses for them doing what they feel like. Unfortunately our countries are infected by neoliberal economic lack of ethical belief in the way that people are viewed. So RW NZ and OZ are in each others’ pockets, and a pocketful of mumbles is all they have to say about decent behaviour.OzKiwi wants stronger advocacy for expats from NZ government

     From Morning Report, 7:28 am today 5.42m
     The Foreign Affairs Minister is advising New Zealanders living in Australia they should seek dual citizenship or realise they’ll have fewer rights. Tim Gassin from Oz Kiwi is in our Wellington studio and says…..

     http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201847152/ozkiwi-wants-stronger-advocacy-for-expats-from-nz-government
   • marty mars 5.2

     12 June 2017 at 9:54 am

     Thanks TRP

     A very sad ending to this story. But of course it is the end for Matt but not his child or his family.

     I hope his body can get back to his home.

     Kia kaha.
6. lprent 6

   12 June 2017 at 8:57 am

   After a series of kernel stoppages in the last week, usually during the morning load winding up, the server is now on a late 4.4.0 kernel. So far that is stable.

   Which is a great relief as I have been stuck on other critical house move tasks but have been frustrated by the need to remain close to that damn machine.

   But I have noticed few quirks like slow saves of post settings. Hardly surprising as the 4.4 kernel doesn’t know much about the hardware on the server. I am also expecting some operations to be slow.

   Let me know here if you see anything odd that shows up today and later.
7. One Anonymous Bloke 7

   12 June 2017 at 9:18 am

   Remember all those outraged stories about Salman Abedi’s family being let into the UK by MI5, implicating them in his crimes?

   Looks like they may well have been ‘fake news’: all suspects released without charge.
   • Bill 7.1

     12 June 2017 at 10:07 am

     no, I don’t recall any such stories OAB.

     Salman Abedi’s family were political refugees from Gadaffi’s Libya. His father was accused by Gadaffi of giving a heads up to targets of the then Libyan intelligence/security community. His father returned to Libya after the ouster of Gadaffi and has some position relating to UN recognised government factions or some such.
     • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1

       12 June 2017 at 10:28 am

       FT.

       Daily Fail.
       • Bill 7.1.1.1

         12 June 2017 at 10:36 am

         So the first link is to a subscription offer (not happening) and the second hasn’t got anything in it about Salman Abedi’s family being let into the UK by MI5.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1.1.1

           12 June 2017 at 11:01 am

           “A subscription…”

           That’s weird.

           I found the FT piece using Google – could read it without being asked to subscribe.

           The title is: “Terrorism: Libya’s civil war comes home to Manchester.”

           …the attack raises serious questions over their assessment of it. MI5, the UK’s domestic intelligence agency, facilitated the travel of many Islamist Mancunians back to Libya…

           They weren’t the only two links I found.

           Perhaps RT’s report is a better fit for you.

           Allegations have also emerged that in 2011, the UK may have relaxed restrictions on LIFG fighters based in the UK and helped them return to Libya to fight Gaddafi.
           • Bill 7.1.1.1.1.1

             12 June 2017 at 11:04 am

             Those stories are about suspected or known Islamists being allowed to travel. Your comment was about Abedi’s family.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               12 June 2017 at 11:06 am

               His father isn’t part of his family? See 7.1.2.1.
               • Bill …

                 12 June 2017 at 11:21 am

                 His father was a refugee. His father lives in Libya again. His father was questioned as was his sister. That would be normal procedure after a bombing.

                 And again. Nothing anywhere about any conspiracy involving the family being in cahoots with MI5 and directly involved in the Manchester bombing – as per the claims in your original comment.
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   12 June 2017 at 11:29 am

                   Sure, none of the stories would have influenced a jury in any way whatsoever, had any of them been charged /sarc.
     • joe90 7.1.2

       12 June 2017 at 11:00 am

       no, I don’t recall any such stories OAB.

       Really?.

       https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26052017/#comment-1333299
       • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.2.1

         12 June 2017 at 11:04 am

         …in the ’90s, no-one would have given much of a second thought to offering asylum to the likes of Ramadan Abedi (the father), but…

         😆
         • Bill 7.1.2.1.1

           12 June 2017 at 11:14 am

           You’re not going to continue with what that “but” was about?

           Here, let me.

           …all this extremism was ‘contained’ by the security forces in countries like Libya, Iraq and Syria. They were the ones with skin in the game who kept tabs on shit, and western governments used their intel.

           I then went on to question why western governments chose to overthrow the governments that were known to be ‘containing’ the self-same terrorist threat that has now spilled into Europe.

           There is something comical about that observation OAB?
       • Bill 7.1.2.2

         12 June 2017 at 11:08 am

         What the fuck is wrong with people? Yes. I made a comment about the refugee status of Abedi’s family from the 90s. I reiterated that above.

         Now, how the fuck does anyone get from that to OABs comment about some conspiracy whereby the family was in cahoots with MI5 and directly involved in the Manchester bombing?

         And where have there been such stories? None of the links provided, in psite of AOBs comment, make that claim.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.2.2.1

           12 June 2017 at 11:12 am

           Whatever.

           My point is that after all that published front page innuendo, none of them have been charged, and that story has been all but buried.
           • Bill 7.1.2.2.1.1

             12 June 2017 at 11:16 am

             Your point was bullshit. There was no “front page innuendo” about the family in the way you claim.
             • marty mars …

               12 June 2017 at 11:23 am

               Nah you are splitting hairs OAB’s point in his initial comment was valid with links imo.
               • Bill …

                 12 June 2017 at 11:26 am

                 Sure. There were no “outraged stories about Salman Abedi’s family being let into the UK by MI5, implicating them in his crimes”. And no links to any such stories.

                 But I’m splitting hairs.
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   12 June 2017 at 11:31 am

                   Tetrapyloctomy. Let’s just assume in future that you aggressively disagree with whatever you think my point is at any given time, eh?
                   • Bill …

                     12 June 2017 at 11:46 am

                     You smeared unsubstantiated bullshit over a thread in Open Mike. I’d rather you didn’t.
                   • One Anonymous Bloke …

                     12 June 2017 at 11:50 am

                     Yes boss.
                   • marty mars …

                     12 June 2017 at 12:06 pm

                     The point was all held in connection set free. I’ll say thanks for putting it up because I want to know that.

                     As for the other – pretty mild compared to what governments and security services do to achieve their aims. Harder to believe it didn’t happen than did.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               12 June 2017 at 11:27 am

               In fact, you’ve done sweet fuck all to refute my point. The rash of stories examining the Abedi family’s alleged links to Libyan Islamist fighters and MI5 were given far greater prominence than the reality of their being released without charge.

               Whether or not my summary of the narrative is 100% accurate is incidental.
               • Bill …

                 12 June 2017 at 11:36 am

                 You haven’t linked to a single one of this supposed “rash of stories examining the Abedi family’s alleged links to Libyan Islamist fighters and MI5”

                 There were some stories on the fathers extremism and his application for asylum in the 90s.

                 And there have been stories suggesting known or suspected Islamist terrorists (not specifically members of Abedi’s family) have found travel easy enough.

                 There has been nothing about any links between Abedi’s family and MI5.

                 Next time there’s a piece of crap propaganda – I guess you prefer the term “fake news” – are you going to hold to the line that accuracy or lack thereof is incidental?
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   12 June 2017 at 11:45 am

                   Whereas I think a lot of dogwhistling went on, designed to give precisely that impression. An impression that will stick, especially since the lack of charges will not be given anything like as much prominence.
                   • Bill …

                     12 June 2017 at 12:03 pm

                     There was no dogwhistling with regards Adebi’s family and MI5 or whatever and that was what your original comment focused on: his family.

                     Suspected collusion between known Islamist terrorists and MI5? Yup. There’s been reporting to that effect.

                     Is there anything to those stories? I dunno. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there was.

                     Thinking here of Shajul Islam, a UK trained doctor who was charged in connection with the kidnapping of John Cantlie, but who walked free from the High Court when all charges were dropped at the last minute (Cantlie had been kidnapped again). He subsequently turned up in Khan Shaykhun having his tweets uncritically reported by the western msm as though he was a neutral source of info.
                   • One Anonymous Bloke …

                     12 June 2017 at 12:19 pm

                     “No dogwhistling”.

                     Here’s The Times,

                     from the visible part of the article…

                     Salman Abedi was linked to a group of disaffected young men who went to fight in Libya with their fathers before switching allegiance to Islamic State, The Times can reveal.

                     The bomber is understood to have been in Libya at the same time as some of the youths, all about the same age, who later faced terrorism charges.

                     Salman Abedi is believed to have turned to Isis while in Libya, where he had gone with his father.

                     It is thought that one of the counterterrorism raids yesterday was connected to the gang of Libyan extremists after police received a tip-off. Greater Manchester police have been told that Abedi was friends with at least two members of the group, who are all linked to Manchester…

                     And here’s Pilger.

                     …why the security service MI5 maintained terrorist “assets” in Manchester…

                     We’ve already established that you disagree, but perhaps others might be interested and offer their own take on it.
                   • McFlock …

                     12 June 2017 at 1:49 pm

                     here’s a good one from stuff: in the article headlined “Britain says some of Manchester bomber’s network potentially still at large” there’s a nice teaser for a related story “Terror runs in the family”, the actual story headline “Manchester bombing: Police arrest suspected attacker’s family as they investigate terror ‘network'”.

                     Might not be a “rash”, but there was a consistent narrative.
8. greywarshark 8

   12 June 2017 at 9:53 am

   Electricity suppliers 29 of them in NZ, electricity business of 4 million people oversupplied and overtapped as is anything remotely likely to be a business in NZ, are not putting money back into their systems – their infrastructure is ‘past its use by date’. Another example of business in NZ over-competitive, only able to succeed by underinvesting in everything including people being paid low wages. Wages are kept down by creating a pool of unemployed people with many immigrants seeking work so driven by high supply wages stay low.

   But one of the reasons that we had to change from a government managed country was because government wasn’t providing the infrastructure that business wanted. All these self-made men needed government and resented that. They should be able to own stuff and supply stuff to other businessmen. Now we have gone full circle under business control which is probably from offshore.

   Many electric lines companies have outdated equipment -ComCom
   From Morning Report
   Listen duration 3′ :29
   http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201847167/many-electric-lines-companies-have-outdated-equipment-comcom
   A report by the Commerce Commission says many electric lines companies have outdated equipment that should have been replaced years ago. Our reporter Eric Frykberg has been looking into it.

   An item on a refugee from Eritrea, says very hard to get jobs. He knows of some with university degrees unable to find work. On radio this morning but not new news.

   English says that we need immigrants and talks about near full employment, but how reliable are those figures. We know how rain is measured, a straightforward method. But employment figures, are those ones that are catch-all for every bit of ‘paid’ work done starting from one hour per week?

   Politics
   12 June 2017
   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/332798/slashing-immigration-would-be-unwise-pm – vid report
   Prime Minister Bill English says any drastic cuts to immigration would be bad for New Zealand’s economic growth.

   English told Morning Report that, with near-full employment in some areas, slashing immigration when there was a need for workers would not be sensible.
   Labour, which is expected to announce its immigration policy shortly, has accused the National government of failing to adequately plan for what has been record immigration – putting pressure on infrastructure, housing, and public services.

   “We’ve been planning for a growing economy and adapting to that growth, because it’s been more sustained I think than people expected – more successful than people expected,” Mr English said.
   “We need the people to do the jobs. Right now, the demands in the construction sector are as high as they have ever been.”

   He said if Labour announced a plan to cut net migration by 20,000-30,000 people a year, as has been reported, it would stall the economy.
   “We have to build the houses, we have to build the roads and the water pipes to support the houses – that’s for people who are here now.

   “Slashing the immigration – whatever you think of it – slashing it when you need the people to do the jobs that must be done, it doesn’t make any sense.”

   What’s this about planning for growth? National Party? Blunderbuss boys!
   Actually poor helpless, hapless Bull English charges into every problem without any finesse as he is a product of the economic Dr Dolittle business ‘intelligence’ system.

   Has he not heard of targeted immigration which we have in NZ had before and which needs to be used as a tool right now. All people who have applications in at present should be fairly treated and go through the system as is if they have paid a large sum of money. But then there should be a break where only applications from potential employers for waiting jobs in certain skills should be considered for say two years. ‘Something could be done, but nothing must be done for the first time!’
9. Bill 9

   12 June 2017 at 10:00 am

   This is one for geeks.

   Just been reading an article in The Independent and came across this comment in the section below the article that appears to contain some very on point and informative links concerning the whole BREXIT malarkey. I’ve quickly checked out a couple of the links so far and yup, they’re nuts and bolts type stuff . I know we’re a long way away, but I’m aware that some (the geeks) are interested, so I’m posting the comment in its entirety for those interested in exploring the linked documents etc.
   ______________________-

   @SoManyStupidPeopleSoLittleTime”There is a HUGE difference between Hard Brexit and soft Brexit. You don’t get it?”-

   The EU27 leaders have explained many times that ‘soft Brexit’ does not exist. It is a delusional British fabrication that the Brits have been fighting about for months. You are fighting about unicorns in your distant galaxy.

   Read Article 50: There is only ONE kind of Brexit = the UK 100% out of the EU = all EU treaties cease to apply to the UK on 30 March 2019. The UK supreme court said so too.

   Barnier said there is only one kind of Brexit. Tusk said hard Brexit or no Brexit (which also means only ONE kind of Brexit). Schaeuble and Juncker said OUT IS OUT. Etc. etc.

   The UK cannot ‘keep’ anything it had as an EU member.

   After exit, the UK can start begging the EU27 for some limited access to the EU single market in exchange for UK’s large trade-offs.

   How many times do the Brits need to be told this?

   Unless of course by ‘hard Brexit’ you mean the UK crashing out of the EU without an exit agreement, whereas ‘soft Brexit’ means the UK exiting the EU with an exit agreement (about citizens’ rights, Irish border, financial obligations and many aspects of disentangling the UK from the EU as specified in the EU27 Brexit Directives). These two possibilities do exist.

   Instead of fighting about unicorns, I strongly recommend you read the EU27 Brexit documents – please explain where you see any kind of a ‘soft Brexit’:

   KEY DOCUMENTS ABOUT THE BREXIT NEGOTIATIONS ISSUED BY THE EU27

   Here is the trio of absolutely BINDING instructions for the EU27 Brexit negotiators = for the European Commission and Barnier’s team:

   (1) EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT RESOLUTION ON NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM
   adopted on 5 April 2017 = seven days after the UK’s exit notification!!!
   (516 MEPs in favour, 133 against, 50 abstain)

   http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&reference=P8-TA-2017-0102&language=EN&ring=P8-RC-2017-0237

   (2) EU27 COUNCIL’S GUIDELINES FOR BREXIT NEGOTIATIONS
   from 29 April 2017
   (unanimously adopted by 27 PMs/presidents)

   http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/04/29-euco-brexit-guidelines/

   (3) THE EU27 DIRECTIVES FOR THE BREXIT NEGOTIATIONS
   unanimously adopted by EU27 General Affairs Council on 22 May 2017

   http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2017/05/Directives-for-the-negotiation-xt21016-ad01re02_en17_pdf/

   The above trio is what the EU27 are putting on the table. When the UK gets its act together and finally crawls to the negotiating table, the EU27 negotiators will explain more details to the UK negotiators (whoever they are – the UK has not yet appointed any!!!).

   Oh, and shock and horror for Theresa No-Running-Commentary May, the EU27 GAC has also adopted

   (4) GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOR TRANSPARENCY IN NEGOTIATIONS UNDER ARTICLE 50 TEU

   http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/2017/05/transparency-xt21023_en17_pdf(1)/

   As a further clarification in more details of the Directives, the European Commission published two working papers specifying in more detail the EU27’s negotiating position on two topics of the exit agreement:

   (5) WORKING PAPER “ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES ON CITIZENS’ RIGHTS” (4 pages)
   published on 29 May 2017, discussed by the EU27 representatives on 30 May

   https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/citizens-rights-essential-principles-draft-position-paper_en.pdf

   (6) WORKING PAPER “ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES ON FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT” (10 pages)
   published on 29 May 2017, discussed by the EU27 representatives on 1 June

   https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/financial-settlement-essential-principles-draft-position-paper_en.pdf

   If the UK had a responsible government, it would now be working on examining in very great detail the EU27’s negotiating position as specified in the above documents and preparing its reply, e.g. which items the UK agrees about and for which it has counter-proposals or counter-arguments.

   Indeed, the ONLY way to start constructively sorting out the huge self-imposed Brexit mess is formation of a government of national unity with all parliamentary parties working together (without new elections). But sadly the Brits are not capable of working together even when faced with a major (self-imposed) notional crisis.
10. weka 10

    12 June 2017 at 10:15 am

    Oh joy, Mike Williams and Matthew Hooton are the political commentators on RNZ this morning, talking about the about to be released Labour immigration policy and the UK situation. Is this really the best you can do RNZ?
    • Bearded Git 10.1

      12 June 2017 at 10:21 am

      ‘I think Mathew is right….”
      • Anne 10.1.1

        12 June 2017 at 10:36 am

        It looks like the cowardly Trump is piking out of the state visit to the UK even though their respective officials are denying it.

        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/11/donald-trump-state-visit-to-britain-put-on-hold

        He’s sulking over new found friend Theresa May’s imminent demise or he’s scared of the protesters? I’d say both.
        • ScottGN 10.1.1.1

          12 June 2017 at 10:58 am

          NYTimes has picked up on this too. They even go so far as to suggest Trump is avoiding New York because of the potential for protests!
          https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/11/us/politics/trump-uk-visit.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
      • weka 10.1.2

        12 June 2017 at 11:36 am

        lol.

        I forgot to turn the radio on 😈
        • Anne 10.1.2.1

          12 June 2017 at 11:40 am

          It wasn’t too bad this week. I suspect that every now and again RNZ gives Hooton a talking to… about his arrogant and shouty behaviour on air and he pulls his horns in for a while.
          • weka 10.1.2.1.1

            12 June 2017 at 12:00 pm

            and/or Hooton knows that he keeps some credibility and acceptability by periodically not being too ott 😉
11. joe90 11

    12 June 2017 at 11:47 am

    The EDL marched in Manchester.

    EDL guy extends hand and Cop says "I'm not shaking your hand – and I am NOT your mate" Brilliant 🙂 #manchester pic.twitter.com/UGVvbvTSuV— Cliff O'Sullivan (@cliffsull) June 11, 2017
12. greywarshark 12

    12 June 2017 at 1:35 pm

    The project proceeds. The Hundertwasser museum and virant showcase for Maori has 3 weeks to raise it’s last money – $1.25 million. It will be something that will remain beautiful even when our reputation as clean, green and honest is tarnished.
    So we must intend that they make it.

    We need something that we have provided for ourselves, showcasing that Europe that has given us so much in the way of culture, from the beginning of NZ and then after WW2 where we were visited by people with deeper thoughts and ideas than we had ever envisaged. Mixed with Maori culture, the cultural centre will be a jewel on our emerald bosom. Poetic eh!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11869900
13. greywarshark 13

    12 June 2017 at 1:42 pm

    To the NZ Herald it is just a sensational story about a teacher posing like a showgirl wearing startling blue contact lenses. To me it’s worrying as I note that she is called a math teacher and is from a charter school in the USA. And is an example of the sort of teacher with extracurricular activities that should not be their business to teach children.

    A 25-year-old maths teacher at a North Carolina public charter school has been arrested on suspicion of carrying on sexual relationships with three male students.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11874179

    (Seeing that there are extremely low barriers to qualifications and teaching at our charters it isn’t impossible that people with skewed attitudes would get involved.)
14. Poission 14

    12 June 2017 at 2:37 pm

    nought to the rort

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/93587892/labour-unveils-plans-to-stop-foreign-students-backdoor-immigration-rort
15. Karen 15

    12 June 2017 at 3:32 pm

    I admit that I was nervous about Labour’s new immigration policy announcement, but It looks to me that they have managed to produce a really good policy that just makes cuts in the dodgy, exploitative areas.

    http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1706/Immigration_factsheet_12Jun17_FIN.pdf
16. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 16

    12 June 2017 at 4:05 pm

    Somehow we need to get this message across to the NZ Labour Party!
    From Jacobin online magazine.

    Why Corbyn Won
    • BHASKAR SUNKARA

    “The Labour left remembered that you don’t win by tacking to an imaginary centre — you win by letting people know you feel their anger and giving them a constructive end to channel it towards. “We demand the full fruits of our labour,” the party’s election video said it all.”

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-election-results-labour-theresa-may-left
17. saveNZ 17

    12 June 2017 at 4:44 pm

    Officials fear $140m charity tax rort

    “One senior lawyer involved in the foreign trusts industry, speaking on condition of anonymity, said expenses incurred by the charities looked at in Operation Timepiece seemed high.

    In the past three years for which accounts for the charities are available, a total of $4.1m was paid in legal, structure and trustee fees, while $5.7m was distributed – the majority to Fondation Eagle, controlled by many of the same lawyers.

    “This seems to be more of a charity for lawyers,” the senior lawyer said.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=11872252&ref=twitter
18. Ad 18

    12 June 2017 at 5:02 pm

    NZ Treasury’s last fiscal update before the election is a gift to the government:

    “The OBEGAL was a surplus of $2.5 billion for the ten months to 30 April 2017, compared to a forecast surplus of $1.0 billion. This favourable variance of $1.5 billion was largely due to the higher than forecast core Crown tax revenue and lower than forecast core Crown expenses discussed above.”

    Plenty of room for National campaign lollies.

    I suspect Joyce will manifesto another positive shift to the tax brackets for lower income people.
    • swordfish 18.1

      12 June 2017 at 7:39 pm

      Election year … All unfolding like clock-work for our close chums and confidantes – the Nats
    • Muttonbird 18.2

      12 June 2017 at 7:44 pm

      Policy on the hoof, you think? How unlike them.
19. Ed 19

    12 June 2017 at 5:25 pm

    Oh my !!!!!!
    There’s a celebrity in New Zealand and the NZ Herald is so excited.
    The New Herald is a cringeworthy tabloid rag

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11874800

    Meanwhile the British ignore their establishment neo-liberal media and vote for socialism.

    Can we learn from them?
20. Blade 20

    12 June 2017 at 7:28 pm

    Still smarting from that kicking I gave you yesterday? Another worthless troll post from someone who had no answers when called out.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • Stuart Munro 20.1

      12 June 2017 at 7:45 pm

      Oh you poor baby – Poor ignorant backward baby blade!

      Who of course cannot answer any real question in someone else’s professional discipline.

      Go home – you demean yourself (and that’s not easy! 😀 )
      • Blade 20.1.1

        12 June 2017 at 8:16 pm

        Thanks for reminding me…I am still waiting on Robert Guyton to tell me the years he was at teachers college and the actual years he spent teaching.

        As for the rest of your post..your were quite correct to use a smiley face imoge. It’s good to see you don’t take yourself seriously. Neither do I.
        • Robert Guyton 20.1.1.1

          12 June 2017 at 8:59 pm

          Jeepers, Blade, I had no idea you were suspended with anticipation of my personal details. Let’s see, I was at Dunedin Teachers College for 2 years, some 33 years ago, or there abouts. I taught for 15 years at a primary school, then several more at high school, including filling the role of Head of Department, Maori studies, where I taught te reo and other associated things Maori. Thank goodness for my knowledge of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, eh taku hoa! I’ve also taught in a museum classroom, where I introduced children to the marvels of the tuatara, carefully handling those ancient sphenodons so as not to hurt them, the children or myself. I’ve done tutoring for university level learners and worked alongside of Steiner trained early childhood teachers, as well as several other teaching positions that I’ll not mention for the sake of brevity. Hope that satisfies your seemingly insatiable curiosity – that’s something I like in a learner, curiosity, I have to say.
      • In Vino 20.1.2

        12 June 2017 at 8:21 pm

        Baby-blade.. Not bad, but I think I prefer Bladey-boy. I think that sums up his(?) faux bluster.
        • marty mars 20.1.2.1

          12 June 2017 at 8:34 pm

          He tough rough and ready to rumble but dull. I doubt he’ll be round long (snif snif)
    • One Anonymous Bloke 20.2

      12 June 2017 at 7:46 pm

      You didn’t “call him out”, you witless parrot: you parroted a load of rote-learned gobshite and offered nothing of substance whatsoever.

      Funny that you describe it as “a kicking” too, considering the contempt in which pwned drivel is held around here. I’m picking you for a real tough guy so long as you’ve got a keyboard to cower behind.
      • Blade 20.2.1

        12 June 2017 at 8:23 pm

        I think the term you are trying desperately to birth is- KeyBoard Warrior.
        • In Vino 20.2.1.1

          12 June 2017 at 8:45 pm

          You misspelled ‘Worrier’.
21. Muttonbird 21

    12 June 2017 at 7:29 pm

    You’re a right wing nut job is what you are.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • BM 21.1

      12 June 2017 at 7:32 pm

      You’re an angry man Muttonbird, ever thought of going and seeing a psychiatrist and getting it sorted?

      Must be tough on the wife and kids all that rage and aggression, poor things are probably terrified.
      • Muttonbird 21.1.1

        12 June 2017 at 7:39 pm

        Ha! You’re an embarrassment mate. That sort of personal abuse is way over the top and shows you can’t behave yourself on this forum.

        Your post is internet bullying and worthy of a report. Hoping one of the moderators sees this because you are clearly in breach of the HDCA.
        • Muttonbird 21.1.1.1

          12 June 2017 at 8:01 pm

          The reverse would be someone calling me a swivel-eyed leftie loon or similar. If I attacked them and their family because of that, in the way BM has done, I would expect to get at least a week off.

          I’m pretty pissed off right now that this scumbag mentioned my family.

          Halfcrown, where did your comment go?
          • mauī 21.1.1.1.1

            12 June 2017 at 9:17 pm

            Yep, one of the worst comments I’ve seen.
            • James 21.1.1.1.1.1

              12 June 2017 at 11:03 pm

              Really ? There are a lot worse post on here against “righties” sometimes with a lot of mob mentality following on.

              Or there have been some down right disgusting ones like the one a day after the WINZ workers were murdered and a poster said the killer should be hailed as a hero.

              there have been threats of real world violence (in respect to this every time I have seen this the mods banned and edited).

              So what muttonbird is crying about isn’t that bad in the scheme of things.
              • joe90 …

                12 June 2017 at 11:37 pm

                down right disgusting

                millsy, always the prick and fuck him
                • marty mars …

                  13 June 2017 at 7:27 am

                  Yep him and his fucken piano wire – often quoted by righties saying the left is just as bad as they are.
                  • james …

                    13 June 2017 at 7:56 am

                    Marty – even us righties know not all lefties are as bad as him. Was mainly pointing out to Maui – that its really isnt one of the worse comments on here by a long way.
                    • marty mars …

                      13 June 2017 at 8:24 am

                      Yep fair point james
                    • Muttonbird …

                      13 June 2017 at 8:31 am

                      You seem to be saying because it’s not the worst it’s totally fine?

                      That a commenter can bully someone on mental health and accuse them of domestic abuse clearly breaches any measure of decency.

                      You’re fine with it though…
              • millsy …

                17 June 2017 at 3:58 pm

                I have since changed my stance on Tully. Given that news emerged that police have drawn connections between him and the Kirsty Bentley case (the extent of which is not known), and that his actions have led to the intimidating security policies in place at WINZ offices, I do not belive that he is a ‘hero’ anymore.

                Though I do think he should be in a mental health unit, not a prison.
22. Halfcrown 22

    12 June 2017 at 8:40 pm

    “Halfcrown, where did your comment go”

    I dunno I think I must have an error deleted it trying to edit.
    But I thought that was a pretty low comment

    I think I wrote something like this.

    Come on BM that is far below your normal standard. As much as I don’t agree with your comments at times you do put up an intelligent valid point of view. You are far above that type of comment so don’t lower yourself. That definitely was not called for.
    • Muttonbird 22.1

      12 June 2017 at 8:42 pm

      Thanks for replying.

      That no action has been taken against BM must mean his comments are fine.
      • In Vino 22.1.1

        12 June 2017 at 8:47 pm

        Or just not quite despicable enough..
      • marty mars 22.1.2

        13 June 2017 at 7:25 am

        Mods will make their own decision on the day. So if you cut and pasta BMs offensive comment back to him in the future at an opportune time YOU may get bolded. It is good to hold it for when he goes complete bullshitty and moaning about quality of comments or nastiness of the left.

        Truth is you made him skip his nice guy persona and show his nasty gnat side – still it is understandable that his comment has upset you.

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