Open Mike 13/02/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 13th, 2018 - 186 comments
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186 comments on “Open Mike 13/02/2018”

  1. Ed 1

    Thoughts with the people of Tonga this morning.

    • dv 1.1

      There was a brief item on the new on mon? where a shop had opened in tonga for a couple of hours on sun afternoon for emergency supplies.

      The police shut them down, cause there is NO trading on sunday.

      Seemed a bit over the top.

      • James 1.1.1

        Never underestimate the stupidity of people.

      • mac1 1.1.2

        Now who said this? “Then he turned to them and said, “Which of you doesn’t work on the Sabbath? If your son or your cow falls into a pit, don’t you rush to get him out?”

        That person understood Christianity in action.

    • James 1.2

      Indeed. Just reading about it this morning. Hard to imagine seeing your beautiful country devistated like that.

      (Ps – let’s just agree on something and not make this a cc debate)

  2. Its not fair that the Lab NZF part of our government is signing away OUR future TO the gangs of Big business the tpp these people are just evil self serving organizations.
    In your reality is it impossible for you to think that 200 years ago that some busness people got together and made a long term plan to dominate the worlds society .
    They would have pooled there money together to use to manipulate nz society to benefit the one%. that is quite plausible to ECO Maori as these people will get more money and more control by these actions I know what data you have access to of mine Breaks fast people every bit ECO knows Ka pai water off a ducks back

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Ed 2.1

      Yes if the government signs the TPP, future governments hand will be tied if they want to tackle housing, inequality, obesity, suicide, in a meaningful way,
      Corporations already run the country.
      The signing of the TPP will set that rule in stone.

      And it will impact on the Treaty.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k4Kh3_KBtNs

      • chris73 2.1.1

        Don’t know what you’re worrying about, don’t you remember this:

        https://thespinoff.scdn5.secure.raxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TPPA-billboard_feat.jpg

        • Ed 2.1.1.1

          I am concerned that NZ citizens will lose even more control of their sovereignty to big business once it is signed.
          I am not party political on this.
          Both 2017 Labour and 2017 National are parties that support the neoliberal globalist agenda of multinational corporations.

          Are you concerned by the fact our sovereignty will be eroded?

          • chris73 2.1.1.1.1

            I wanted the TPP signed in the first place so I’m well pleased with what Labours is doing , they’re putting NZs interests ahead of thier own ideology and should be congratulated for that

            I’ll admit I was a little disappointed with the election result but Labour thus far has shown me to be a center-left government so I can live with that

          • James 2.1.1.1.2

            Nope. I’ve always been for the signing of the TPPA. But like a lot thought labour were going to cause it to fail (which I thought was stupid)

            Turns out they just assumed voters were stupid and did a bait and switch.

      • Stunned Mullet 2.1.2

        Which corporations run NZ ?

        How will future governments hands be tied in relation to housing, inequality, obesity and suicide if the CPTPP is entered into ?

        • Ed 2.1.2.1

          Google is your friend.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.2.2

          That they be tied at all is problematic. Treaties between nations impose responsibilities, our courts constrain Parliament’s excesses. That I can live with. And defend.

          Limited liability private business concerns, not so much. Hire a lawyer and go to court like everyone else.

          • Carolyn_Nth 2.1.2.2.1

            At last night’s anti-TPPA-11 meeting in Auckland, Laila Harre said that there is no protection for NZ sovereignty over it’s labour/employment laws in the TPP agreement our government plans to sign on 8th March.

            Harre has been researching and writing a thesis on it.

            She says such agreements cannot protect our labour laws and this needs to be done through the ILO.

            Under the TPPA that our government plans to sign, they could be sued for the labour regulations the government is planning to implement.

            Harre and Kelsey say that if this agreement is signed, it will be used as a model for other trade agreements.

            Kelsey said some in the labour caucus won’t to maintain such a model. But this model is in crisis, and we need to respectful campaign to shift the balance in the government to something more progressive.

            National Day of anti-TPPA action on Sunday 4th March.

            Demo in Wellington on day of signing, 8 March.

            FUrther meetings around NZ before then.

        • Which corporations run NZ ?

          All of them.

          It’s generally how oligarchies operate.

          How will future governments hands be tied in relation to housing, inequality, obesity and suicide if the CPTPP is entered into ?

          They can’t go against the agreement. So, say the NZ government decides to build 100,000 homes and the decide that the best way to do that would be to reinstitute the Ministry of Works and have it all done in house.

          Well, they can’t do that. The FTAs, including the TPP, demand that the government put it out to tender instead. And even in doing that they can’t choose a NZ company over a foreign company in NZ’s interests.

      • James 2.1.3

        It’s not IF it’s when they sign it.

        • Brigid 2.1.3.1

          But the contents of the treaty remain secret. And you’re happy about that?
          You trust Labour and NZFirst to do what’s best for you?
          But you didn’t vote for either.
          Why not?

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.2

      Housing us the top issue but I’m more concerned about the commercialisation of water.

      Signing the TPPA in any form will ensure that gap between have/have not expands.

  3. Bill 3

    Why’s The Guardian teaming up with the government to “do a number” on Oxfam?

    Some workers in Haiti used prostitutes = loss of government funding with The Guardian leading the charge? Wtf?

    Anyone remember War on Want getting buried because they were “too political”?

    Oxfam have released a number of good reports on poverty/inequity etc. Anyone want to tell me that’s not why they’re in the firing line?

    And if Oxfam UK goes down the gurgler, then what of Oxfam NZ. And where in the name of fuck is the next NGO speaking out against the bullshit effects of global capitalism?

    This piece is from last October.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/31/oxfam-says-it-has-sacked-22-staff-in-a-year-over-sexual-abuse-allegations

    Then there’s nothing until …well, here’s the Guardian articles from the past two days.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/11/oxfam-staff-raise-concerns-over-charity-vetting-processes-haiti-abuse

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/haiti-demands-oxfam-identify-workers-who-used-prostitutes

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/oxfam-hit-cancelled-donations-charity-shop-volunteers-shock

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/11/we-fear-whats-next-oxfam-reels-from-prostitution-scandal

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/11/oxfam-show-moral-leadership-lose-government-funds-prostitutes-haiti

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/oxfam-faces-allegations-staff-paid-prostitutes-in-chad

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/12/the-oxfam-scandal-shows-colonialism-is-alive-and-well

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/12/aid-worker-oxfam-scandal-haiti-abuse-bullying-culture

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/how-has-recent-news-affected-oxfam-donations-where-you-are-tell-us

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/monday-briefing-oxfam-pleads-for-charity-amid-sex-scandal

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/feb/11/penny-mordaunt-oxfam-moral-leadership-video

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2018/feb/10/i-am-deeply-ashamed-says-oxfam-ceo-of-the-haiti-sex-scandal-video

    • James 3.1

      If they don’t want bad press – don’t do bad things.

      They are only getting what they caused.

      That’s not doing a number – that’s reporting.

      • Bill 3.1.1

        So James. You’re saying that any org. receiving government funds should have those funds pulled if a staff member pays someone for sex?

        The matter was reported last October. Once.

        Twelve articles in two days that excuse and condone government moves to pull funding isn’t reporting. It’s campaigning.

      • reason 3.1.2

        Oxfam were doing a good job in highlighting Tax havens as being the biggest drivers of inequality and poverty in the world ….

        Starving children in poor countries … Student loans and ‘Austerity’ for kids in rich ones.

        In a world with decent leaders oxfam would not be needed.

        Abuse of children starts with sick leaders …. like our own John Key.

        He personally would have abused thousands of times more children than oxfam ..

        And he’d be happier than James about the Guardians oxfam campaign …

        I wonder if they have written as much about vulture capitalists ? … another group of prolific family and child abusers.

        • james 3.1.2.1

          “Abuse of children starts with sick leaders …. like our own John Key.

          He personally would have abused thousands of times more children than oxfam”

          Now there is a perfectly sane and reasonable comment / sarc.

          • reason 3.1.2.1.1

            James is the lowest form of argument …

            He don’t agree leaders of the world are responsible for the state its in …

            And he don’t agree that putting children into poverty is abuse …

            In Keys case … when he was creatively helping u.s.a corporations become Irish ones ….. the result was less money for things like schools and infrastructure in the u.s.a. ….. How much money did that deprive from the poor in the u.s.a ?

            When Key got bailed out …. he took even more money from the long suffering u.s.a taxpayers .

            And then the greedy dirt bag plugged New Zealand into the Tax Haven net-work …. The biggest cause of inequality and poverty in the world …. as high lighted by Oxfam.

            Please tell us all how stealing from poor children is not child abuse James …

            Explain yourself without looking like a dirt bag yourself …. if you can.

            You can’t.

        • Bill 3.1.2.2

          Unless I’ve missed something, there was no abuse of children. Some employees paid prostitutes for sex. No allegations of paying for underage sex have been made as far as I’ve read.

          Now sure, it’s not the best look to be all “I’m here to help, and by the way, how much for a blow-job around these parts?”

          But I guess we need to understand that no business in receipt of government assistance or support (like say an arms manufacturer) has employees who go to prostitutes. And if they did have, then government would of course, cut said company loose.

          And next time a government MP goes to a prostitute and is sprung, they won’t just resign, but the government will throw a vote of no confidence against itself and a general election will ensue.

          • McFlock 3.1.2.2.1

            I think one of the things you’ve maybe missed, Bill, is that prostitution is often fine when everyone is on an equal power footing, but not so much when the customer is well resourced and secure but the “prostitute” is struggling to find basic essentials for life. Especially when the customer is also responsible for the distribution of those essentials.

            • adam 3.1.2.2.1.1

              There is always a power differential in prostitution, it’s why our law around prostitution is a crook. It makes little difference if the place is Haiti or if it is South Dunedin.

              I did not see anywhere where they didn’t pay. Or curried favour for the client/john/user of prostitutes. Did you see that?

            • Bill 3.1.2.2.1.2

              No, I get all that McFlock.

              And the employees employments were terminated regardless of any power at play. I don’t know whether these guys “created” prostitutes due to peoples circumstances or paid pre-existing prostitutes.

              But either way, it’s a howling bullshit excuse for government and whatever media lackeys to leverage in a way that could bury the entire organisation.

              Do you believe for even one second that the following statement is meant to apply to any and all organisations government works with? Or just those those that “show it up” from time to time?

              Penny Mordaunt. UK’s International Development Secretary

              I am very clear: we will not work with any organisation that does not live up to the high standards on safeguarding and protection that we require.

              • McFlock

                I suspect the outrage of the government is cynical as you suggest.
                But given that some of your links refer to problem men flowing from one organisation to another, employment termination isn’t the solution it might seem at first glance.

                • Bill

                  Why should an org. be held accountable for the fact an ex-employee secured employment elsewhere? Are they meant to hire Private Dicks, monitor and surveil them?

                  Beyond not giving references (and there are potential issues with that in a NZ context), what the fuck are they legally capable of doing?

                  • McFlock

                    Firstly, try handling the initial complaint about your country director properly, instead of transferring him to the next disaster zone.

                    Secondly, try firing them rather than allowing resignations. That’ll make it more difficult for them to move into other organisations to abuse.

                    And it’s not just May’s govet looking at funding, so is the European Union.

                    BTW, everything I’m saying comes from the list of links you’re outraged over.

                    • Bill

                      Well sure. Some poorly handled shit justifies sinking an entire org that just happens to be vocally critical….how?

                      No winks and nods to the EU from the UK to follow suit and rid themselves of an annoying thorn in the side? Just upstanding governments, aye?

                      Fuck. I’d hate to be running the next arms fair given this upstanding morality government’s discovered for itself!

                      The Guardian “reporting”. Anything new in those dozen pieces from the past two days that wasn’t previously reported last October? (I don’t think there is.) So, if not a campaign of righteous indignation and condemnation then, why now?

                      edit – and when did paying another person for sex become a definition for abuse?

                      edit no. 2 “Two staff members resigned before investigations were complete” Not much can be done about that.

                    • McFlock

                      I think if the UK outright begged the EU to do something at the moment, the EU would fucking laugh in their face. Seems to be the norm with the brexit negotiations.

                      edit – and when did paying another person for sex become a definition for abuse?

                      sounds like capitalism is always a free exchange between indiciduals, eh. No power imbalance there, even if one party has no shoes.

                      edit no. 2 “Two staff members resigned before investigations were complete” Not much can be done about that.

                      Except continue the investigations and deliver your findings to the police if something illegal turns up.

                    • Bill

                      A mutual interest in silencing Oxfam requires no begging on any party’s part. And there’s been a fair amount of this silencing of dissident opinion lately. (Yes, I know you disagree on that front)

                      Prostitution and power imbalances exist right here in NZ. You against the legalisation of sex work? You think Johns should be jailed or some-such?

                      Oxfam has referred cases to the police.

                      But the headline case involves paying for sex in Haiti. That’s illegal in
                      Haiti. You think Oxfam should refer that to the English police? You think the UK would/should extradite someone to answer allegations of having paid for sex in Haiti?

                    • McFlock

                      You think Oxfam should refer that to the English police? You think the UK would/should extradite someone to answer allegations of having paid for sex in Haiti?

                      That depends entirely on the circumstances in which the transaction was made.

                      Frankly, if the person who was paid for sex felt coerced into it or received unfair advantage in aid, then either the local police or the British ones should be involved.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Prostitution and power imbalances exist right here in NZ. You against the legalisation of sex work? You think Johns should be jailed or some-such?

                    The reason sex work is legal in NZ is because it helps create safe spaces for sex workers. I’m unconvinced that it’s an apt metaphor for a disaster zone, expect inasmuch as NZ is an ongoing “free” “market” disaster itself.

                    • Bill

                      It was a comparison, not a metaphor. But let me put it this way. Paying people for sex has been normalised. There are possible debates and arguments around that fact, but it’s the fact I’m pointing to.

                      So a guy paid someone for sex in a country where that’s not legal. And an entire aid agency that has a habit of producing “embarrassing” reports (from a government perspective) has its future put in jeopardy by government.

                      As I asked in my originla comment – anyone remember War on Want and how they were silenced and shut down? Because I’m seeing parallels, though the pre-text for hitting Oxfam is different.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      As you know, I think charity is obscene in the first place. From a realpolitik perspective, you’re probably right.

                    • weka

                      “So a guy paid someone for sex in a country where that’s not legal.”

                      In addition to the comment I made below about minimising, let me put it another way. Your critique of the Guardian would carry more punch if you stopped minimising the rape culture and gender issues here.

                      If the argument is that the Guardian are blowing something out of proportion in order to manipulate the public against an NGO, you’re going to run up against the problems I outlines below. We don’t know what happened, and there are still issues to look at about what Oxfam did even if what you say about the Guardian is true.

          • weka 3.1.2.2.2

            As a sidebar, this is another example of how one can frame things that undermines other politics. If the problem here is that the Guardian has an agenda of supporting the status quo, that seems reasonable to critique. But one doesn’t actually have to do that by way of minimising the issues around the thing being badly reported.

            Prostitution includes children doing sex work, including in NZ and irrespective of legislation. When we change the subject in that sentence, we can say that by definition someone using sex work services is committing rape if the worker is underage. Because of the nature of the patriarchy, that is very hard to address, so politically I think it’s better to not assume that no underage people were involved as a base line. If you think that’s daft, consider how many men can’t tell the difference between an 18 year old and a 15 year old. Or don’t want to. The way you are putting your arguments here makes that stuff less visible.

            I haven’t followed the story much, but afaik there is at least question of whether underage people were involved.

            Prostitution in Haiti is illegal. Again, given the nature of the powers involved, it makes more political sense to me to include the problems inherent in that. For instance a population that is eating mud pies due to lack of food is much more likely to have high numbers of women, transgender people, children and men doing sex work in conditions that are coercive.

            That’s not necessarily a comment on *your politics, but on the framing that *might be going on here. For instance, this sentence,

            “Now sure, it’s not the best look to be all “I’m here to help, and by the way, how much for a blow-job around these parts?”

            seriously minimises the broader politics in the situation. The critique of the Guardian doesn’t require that.

            Making a sardonic comparison with arms dealers and MPs likewise. I mean, I get it, it’s funny and pointed if one is looking at the hypocrisy of the establishment in the West. It’s less funny if one is looking at rape culture politics.

            • Bill 3.1.2.2.2.1

              There hasn’t been any allegation of underage sex in what I’ve read.

              And the comparisons to arms fairs/arms dealers and MPs and the reaction (obvious lack of) isn’t meant to be funny.

              The critique isn’t about “supporting the status quo” but that a newspaper is quite overtly running a government’s political agenda out to the public. (Nothing new in that, I know)

              • joe90

                There have been allegations.

                As disgusting as it might seem, as authorities crack down on paedophilia in the developed world, predatory paedophiles are now going to the developing world to gain access to children. One of their preferred methods is to join a children’s charity

                Shocking revelations on BBC’s Newsnight on Friday 9 February saw former Oxfam head Dame Barbara Stocking admit that she “knew for years” after an internal Oxfam investigation that sexual exploitative behaviour has been going on at Oxfam. The behaviour included hiring prostitutes in earthquake-torn Haiti – who may have been underage – and downloading illegal material. It was revealed that the aid workers involved in such acts moved from aid job to aid job with spotless references.

                http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/oxfam-aid-work-prostitutes-un-workers-child-sex-abuse-harassment-dfid-a8204526.html

                • weka

                  Yep. I think it’s safe to assume that there is probably abuse going on, rather than not. We can wait for an investigation for details about specific people, but in terms of discussing the general politics, I can’t see that Oxfam should be given the benefit of the doubt as an organisation. No-one should.

                • Bill

                  With reference to Oxfam and Haiti, that reads as speculation on the authors part rather than any reporting of an allegation.

                  Is there anywhere (any article) stating that allegations have been made that Oxfam employees in Haiti had sex with minors?

              • weka

                none of that addresses the issues I am raising, and that you haven’t yet read more widely doesn’t mean the issues aren’t pertinent.

                If you google Oxfam Haiti underage you will find some reading.

                “And the comparisons to arms fairs/arms dealers and MPs and the reaction (obvious lack of) isn’t meant to be funny.”

                Take out the word funny then, and reread it. The point stands.

                “The critique isn’t about “supporting the status quo” but that a newspaper is quite overtly running a government’s political agenda out to the public. (Nothing new in that, I know)”

                Good to have the clarification, but again, it avoids the point I was making.

                • Bill

                  I’m not “avoiding” your point so much as simply not focusing on it. You and who-ever can look at all this through lenses of gender, but you can’t reasonably insist that everyone else does.

                  A publication running government attack lines. Where we seen that before?

                  If the pieces focused on the men, who are known, and investigated their past behaviours, allegations against them, positions held and which other orgs money they had spent for personal gratification (though I think it’s reasonable to assume it was their own money and on their own time), then that would be entirely different to what is actually happening.

                  These men having paid for sex is being used to attack and silence an organisation that is a reasonable and vocal critic of governments and their policies. And media are willfully running governments attack lines against that org. I think that’s hugely important.

                  • weka

                    I think it’s important too.

                    What I’m suggesting is that you have an opportunity here to engage in some solidarity politics. That’s a good thing, because solidarity, but also it means you won’t get as much push back on your actual points because of the framing. At the moment I’m just seeing dismissal and minimising, so I’m not convinced this is simply choosing not to focus on it. Looks more like discounting it.

                    There’s a limit to how much support can be given to strategies that misuse gender and rape culture issues to address this kind of issue. That’s not new either.

          • reason 3.1.2.2.3

            Sorry Bill … the Guardians blitz of stories, combined with James …. our king of grubby toilet sex using the word “bad” … lead me to assume it was something like underage prostitutes …. and memories of UN sex trafficking sucked me in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers

            That it is not …. shows a contrived Guardian hit job ….and pathetic excuse for the Tory Tax haven party to threaten Oxfams funding.

            James hypocrisy and criticism of Oxfam ……….. stands in stark contrast to his excuses and support of Rugby players abusing sex workers … or rooting strangers in public toilets…. while being in a relationship.

            ‘Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it’ is his advice over toilets …. but sex with prostitutes is bad.

            Indicating both his morals and taste …….. are located up his arse.

            Hopefully good Poms …. decent ones like Corbyn …. fight against this Guardian / Tory abuse.

            • reason 3.1.2.2.3.1

              “An Associated Press investigation revealed in 2017 that more than 100 UN peacekeepers ran a child sex ring in Haiti over a 10 year period and none were ever jailed.”

      • adam 3.1.3

        Odd, you seem to have changed your tune since Sunday, you realise it’s only 2 days and your now running with a different tune.

        Get your attack points sorted james, you’re looking unhinged.

  4. I know that a lot of Maori leaders are saying you Ngati Porou sided with the crown during the turmoils of the early days of out country been turned into NZ why should we listen to you Eco Maori .
    In reality when one is swimming and gets caught in a big a Rip tide if one does not swim with the rip tide one will get tired swimming against the tide that one drowns ka pai.
    So If Ngati Porou Great leaders Ropata Wahawaha. Kohere Mokena. Potae Henare sided with other Maori and we killed all the settlors this would have given the neo liberals the power to up set the Killer Whale I.E rally Great Briton against Aoetearoa . She was the Superpower in those days we would have been at war for years a lot of tangata would have been lost and in reality we would not have any Mana now we would all be living on the Ruapehu the desert road and the neo librels would have total control .

    IF we lett the government sign the tpp go have a look at America look at its roads look at its dams are running dry look at its ghettos look at its health systems look at its finance systems .

    Is this what you want to leave behind for all OUR Mokos ECO MAORI says NO .
    We are but caretakers of Papatuanuku for the very short time we are here OUR main job is to pass her on to OUR mokos in a good healthy state .
    That is a good point Jack and Haley the state of our poor housing the Tidal wave of inequality instigated by nationals shonky and bills polices will still be rolling in for years . Ana to kai
    Ka kite ano

    • Rock Rumble I know what to say I dont want this tpp to stuff up Aotearoa and I wont fall for the bait others are putting out there I get to chose what I talk about I will forgive them I see the bigger picture .Give us a sore face P.S the sandflys delete things out of my inbox for me IPCA files
      Ka pai ka kite ano

      • Eco Maori 4.1.1

        All the best on your new journey Bill English.
        Time for he tangata of Aotearoa to take a new path to ensure all OUR mokos are all treated equally time for New Zealanders to respect Papatunuku / Mother Earth and all her creatures .So all our mokos can be guarantee a health prosperous future.

        Hilary & Jeremy some think that I should have deleted my e-mail encourageing Tops party to help me to stop this farcical ttp trade our sovereign away contract .
        New Zealand doesn’t need that the whole world wants our food that is the best food on Papataunuku we are not even known in a lot of countries we just have to tell the World our beautiful story about our clear sky’s green grass ect.
        I told people that I would hold them accountable for there actions .
        I was disappointed with one policy I bit my tongue .Eco Wil not bite his tongue on this farcical trade our sovereignty away contract tpp. Anyway I’m not a person who does things behind-the-scenes or behind one’s back .I want everyone to know my view on the reality of the ttp . I new labour would find out /be informed from the sandflys about my e-mail to Gareth Morgan .This action of mine puts labour on notice don’t underestimate ECO MAORI . I still back Labour lead Government I just want some of Tops researched good policies to be legislated into our laws sooner or later he got us all talking about Maori receiving 1cent in the dollar for compensating for our land being stolen by the NZ Company he is a great good hounerable Kiwi who put his money were his mouth is . Ka kite ano

  5. Muttonbird 5

    National’s legacy. Not content with elevating NZ to the top of domestic abuse statistics, they underfund support services so badly, under the banner of restructuring, no-one answers the phone.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/350270/child-abuse-hotline-overwhelmed-by-calls

  6. Muttonbird 6

    I’m seeing some evidence by way of hit and run comments on other blogs that the dirty politics brigade is going to target Clark Gayford’s past as a way to attack JA and the government.

    The Nats know this is a very, very dangerous strategy but I think they’re incapable of changing their ways, and it worked with Metiria Turei after all, even though they lost the election in the end.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if Gayford’s past is in the spotlight soon.

    • James 6.1

      Well if he hasn’t don’t anything to be ashamed of then he’s got nothing to worry about.

      He is after all NZ’s first man of fishing.

      • solkta 6.1.1

        So you agree with this kind of dirty politics?

        If he hasn’t run for public office then he shouldn’t have anything to worry about regardless of whether he “hasn’t don’t anything” (sic).

        • BM 6.1.1.1

          Some of the accusations are rather serious and if true I can’t see how Ardern could survive.

          • joe90 6.1.1.1.1

            rather serious and if true

            The innuendo a fortnight ago over at the sewer, right?

            • BM 6.1.1.1.1.1

              And yesterday.

              • James

                Without linking what was the post name from yesterday?

                • BM

                  The one about the Chris Bishop smear.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Wow! Who knew that shadowy figures have been murdering NZ journalists and writers for years, and something about the KGB.

                    Serious stuff. 😆

                    • sam green

                      These “innuendoes” have been going on for about three weeks with several kiwiblog commentators chiming in as if they know something. Farrar, as per his instructions, is letting it go and the shit slinging is continuing. Much like the innuendoes regarding Ardern’s mental health status pre election. There are a few specific commentators who kept that one up with regularity.

        • james 6.1.1.2

          Depends what they are – and who says its dirty politics – what if its a #MeToo type issue?

          (Not saying it is (nor have I read anything suggesting that this is the case – Just using this as an example of something in his past that isnt dirty politics and may indeed be a valid complaint from somebody).

          • solkta 6.1.1.2.1

            If the revealing and dirt digging is being run by a political party and/or their proxies then it is dirty politics regardless of the nature of the accusations.

        • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.3

          While he hasn’t run for office hes certainly been front and centre, he accepted the wiro at Waitangi, has wrote some pieces about why we should vote for Jacinda

          Hes not like Peter Davis or Bronagh Key in that respect so if you want to have influence you need to accept the negative with the positive

          Mind you I also haven’t heard any rumours either

          • mauī 6.1.1.3.1

            He’s had a bigger profile than Ardern over much of his career through his radio and tv work. I actually think he’s done a good job of being in the background considering. It doesn’t look like he’s going to use his new found fame to get tv jobs either.

            • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.3.1.1

              ” It doesn’t look like he’s going to use his new found fame to get tv jobs either.”

              Doesn’t matter, he tried to influence the election, he accepted on behalf of either Jacinda or the Labour party the wiro at Waitangi so hes fair game

              • mpledger

                Then so are (or now were) Bill English’s kids who went around campaigning with him.

                • veutoviper

                  And his wife, Mary English, who was also with him today when he resigned along with three of the sons.

                  Mrs English (or rather Dr) also featured in a number of fluff pieces in the Herald etc as well as Gayford about their relationships with their respective partners.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Mary English didn’t start doing much campaigning until late in the picture, she was fairly anonymous for much of Bills career (which is a shame as shes quite the catch)

                  And kids should be off limits up until they start chiming in so, as an example, criticism of Max Key is fine but criticism of Stephanie Key isn’t

            • veutoviper 6.1.1.3.1.2

              As Maui says, Gayford has had a public profile for almost 20 years through his TV and radio work.

              He left his safe TV and radio jobs about three years ago to take a gamble and follow his dream of creating his own TV series combining travel, fishing and food, and marine sustainability and protection – with Jacinda Ardern’s blessing and encouragement.

              The third series of “Fish of the Day” is due to run here in NZ soon on Prime TV (it was previously on Choice TV) and in about 38 countries through the National Geographic’s network (up from about 20 countries for the previous two series).

              Brilliant (award winning) photography, particularly underwater, by his partner in this venture – Mike Bhana, a NZer also known as ‘Mr Shark’ as one of the creators of the largest shark exhibition in the world – Planet Shark http://www.planetshark.com – a huge educational installation designed to promote awareness, conservation and understanding of sharks and our oceans. Bhana is also known for his photographic/video work in documenting the work of the Red Cross teams worldwide.

              http://fishoftheday.tv/profiles

              A teaser video for the third series – https://www.facebook.com/pg/fishofthedaytv/videos/?ref=page_internal

              Gayford and Bhana also do a lot of other work in relation to marine sustainability and protection both in NZ and in the Pacific, eg the proposed Niue Marine Sanctuary and the annual Humpback Whale migration. The ‘Fish of the Day’ also focuses on these issues.

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11930357

              https://twitter.com/NZClarke/status/916829442630082560

              They have also done a series of short travel promotion videos for Niue – keeping in with the ‘father in law’! – Ross Ardern, NZ High Commissioner to Niue, soon to return to NZ and become the NZ Administrator of Tokelau, based in Auckland.

              Gayford will be putting most of the above on hold to become the prime caregiver of their child, so he deserves credit for this.

              [And no, Ed – I am not getting paid for this promo.]

        • adam 6.1.1.4

          Of course he does solkta, james has no morals.

    • James 6.2

      So Turei comes out and ADMITS benefit fraud in a speech and that’s nationals dirty politics.

      Your tin foil hat is slipping.

      • Muttonbird 6.2.1

        They did go after her family. Even you’d have to admit that’s pretty low.

        • Chuck 6.2.1.1

          “They did go after her family.”

          Metiria Turei pushed “her family” under the bus.

          Turei tried to paint the picture she had no other choice but to commit fraud. Which is only half a step away from telling NZ that her former partner and his family did bugger all to help support their daughter/granddaughter

          When in fact Turei had massive support from them, they were always going to hit back at Turei. Of course, you do know who the grandmother is of Metiria Turei baby?

          [if you’re going to make statements of fact about a public/political figure on this political blog, you need to back them up. I’d now like to see some credible back up for the statement that Turei had ‘massive support’ from her family. Putting you in moderation so I can pick it up when it comes through – weka]

          • weka 6.2.1.1.1

            moderation note for you to respond to.

            For context, many lies have been told about Turei, and much of them were politically motivated. If you want to make claims in the future, don’t make me ask for back up, provide it at the time.

            • Chuck 6.2.1.1.1.1

              Sure weka.

              Read the stuff link that james posted…

              Turei claim of she had to commit fraud was BS. She received massive support (her own words were “really fantastic support”).

              It belittled the sole parents who do not have the support of their family or friends.

              Sorry, but Turei was caught out.

              [You need to provide evidence of your assertion of fact. i.e. actual links that are credible, and quotes from those links that explicitly support what you are saying. Your reckons aren’t enough, nor are vague references to other commenters. The onus is on *you to do the work. Note that for future reference too in what I said in the other note. Please also read the Policy about wasting moderator time. I’ve asked twice now, don’t make me come back at it again because I’m more likely just to ban you – weka]

            • Chuck 6.2.1.1.1.2

              “I’d now like to see some credible back up for the statement that Turei had ‘massive support’ from her family.”

              Quote from Turei: “I have always said I did have really fantastic support from friends and family and that Piupiu’s family really supported me especially when I was in law school with things like you know, child care, stuff like that. Like the sort of stuff that you would expect.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95624422/metiria-turei-says-support-from-her-childs-grandparents-wasnt-financial

              Tureis statement was in response to John Campbell putting written questions to her re-extend family contacting Checkpoint.

              Now John Campbell is respected on the left…so is he making this up?

              I know Ann Hartley and the thought she would let any child let alone her granddaughter go without is just ridiculous.

              For those not familiar with Ann Hartley here is a good overview…

              https://ancad.org.nz/sites/default/files/Ann%20Hartley_LoRes.pdf

              If you want me to link to Turei admitting she did not have to cheat…well I can’t.

              [good. Because now we can see the difference between what Turei actually said, and what you claimed as fact. People can then respond to your comment without having to deal with you asserting opinion as fact. From now on I suggest that at the time you either don’t assert fact but instead state clearly that things are in your opinion, or you put up a link and quote to back up the claim of fact. I don’t want to have to waste my time on this again, nor do I think it’s ok to have this cleared up a day after the conversation is moved on. You are allowed to express opinion on this site (within bounds), but misusing statements of facts to take part in a long attack on a public figure is not ok – weka]

              • weka

                Turei: I have always said I did have really fantastic support from friends and family and that Piupiu’s family really supported me especially when I was in law school with things like you know, child care, stuff like that. Like the sort of stuff that you would expect.

                You: When in fact Turei had massive support from them

                There is nuance in what Turei is saying. Obviously she is sending a message to her family and friends that she really appreciated the support she received from. We don’t know how much of the ‘really fantastic support’ was financial, or of the financial support, what weekly or yearly amount that was.

                We also don’t know what shortfall she had in her budget over time. That she had wealthy in laws who gave some financial support doesn’t mean that they were giving her what she needed.

                The crux of the issue here is whether Turei needed the additional money from the benefit or not. Again, we don’t know the figures involved, so there is no way to assess this from a maths point of view. What we do know is that at that time, the benefit wasn’t enough to live on. It is widely held opinion that benefits were already at that time set below the poverty line in order to force people into work. For a single parent raising a child and going to law school there is very little space to take on extra work to supplement income. This is why most compassionate and knowledgeable people either understand what Turei did or actively support it.

                Further, as Bill pointed out, financial support from family (or anyone) is technically considered income by WINZ and had she declared it she would have had a portion of her benefit taxed. Catch 22.

                I don’t actually care who Turei’s in laws are. There are plenty of middle class beneficiaries whose families help in some ways but where the beneficiary still struggles and the family is either aware or unaware. This is neither news nor surprising. The only people that don’t understand this social reality are people who are ignorant. And far too many people are wilfully ignorant and want their bigotry to trump everything else. That is what I see in your series of posts. You are willing to believe second or third hand information and rumour instead of looking at what was most likely to have been going on.

                John Campbell is a very compassionate man. But in this instance he did one of the worst things I have ever seen him do. He did that interview from a place of utter ignorance of the reality of being a beneficiary and he chose to amplify the voices of reactionaries rather than vulnerable people. He ran a line of sex workers and drug addicts might be justified in needing more income, but that law students with wealthy in laws aren’t. That is as fucked up as it comes, and I don’t care what someone’s politics are at that point, if they are abusing their position of power by promoting bludger memes. Campbell should be ashamed of himself.

        • james 6.2.1.2

          You mean when the family contacted the press to say that her comments were ‘galling’

          “The allegations were put to Turei by RNZ Checkpoint who said a family member told them the extended family found Turei’s comments about the hardships she faced in her 20s and her benefit fraud “galling”.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95624422/metiria-turei-says-support-from-her-childs-grandparents-wasnt-financial

          • Muttonbird 6.2.1.2.1

            Anonymous family member, eh? Interesting…

            • james 6.2.1.2.1.1

              to quote you from a couple of days ago “so obviously there was something inappropriate going on.”

              • Bill

                Fuck off James. Any financial aid from a family member would have been viewed as income, and if not declared to WINZ (so they could dock payments accordingly) then said aid becomes a matter of fraud.

      • reason 6.2.2

        Bill English a millionaire lives in a house owned by his trust … but claims $900 per week in rent expenses … the motive was pure greed …but he ADMITS nothing

        James and our dirty politics goons go on and on about a solo mum getting a fraction of that to try and live on a benefit that the national party set at punitive poverty levels …..

        James ADMITS his clearly dirty stinking morals …. underpinned by hypocrisy.

        …. his fingers do the talking .

        • james 6.2.2.1

          No – James goes on about a self admitted benefit fraud.

          • reason 6.2.2.1.1

            you capitalized whats important to you ….

            and your past form sticks and stinks ………..

            Anyway good to see Bill English flushed from power …. another head for winston …. the key slayer.

            Who next ?

    • Ad 6.3

      There’s a really simple sequence to kill all that:

      1. 2018. Prime Minister gives birth. That’s worth a year of publicity including international. WHo will supply the outfits?

      2. 2019. Prime Minister take the baby to Waitangi. Solid month of coverage.

      He proposes. That’s worth about 6 months of solid magazine covers and tv interviews locally.

      3. 2020. They get married at start of campaign.

      That’s worth 4% in the polls by itself, because it kills all other political coverage.

      They get a second term.

      4. 2022. Second baby. Gets a third term. Retires from politics end of Year 8.

      Job done.

      • james 6.3.1

        Pity you think she needs to be a baby factory / get married etc to get re-elected.

        So much for substance.

        • BM 6.3.1.1

          Yeah, that’s a pretty insulting post.

          Ad seems to think Arderns main worth is to be a breed mare and grace the covers of the woman’s mags.

          You’d think impressing voters with her PM skills would be what gets her reelected, but, nope it’s babies and weddings.

          • tc 6.3.1.1.1

            No Ad’s just pointing out the shallow nature of what it takes to get elected in this country.

            y’know smile n wave etc using the womens mags, have the msm repeat your spin, photo mop’s with the AB’s, get on the cover of Rugby times etc etc

            Weak attempt at diversion BM, you can do better than that.

        • Robert Guyton 6.3.1.2

          A woman who gives birth to two babies is a “baby factory”, James?
          Pretty scabby stuff from you today. BM’s comments (below) are equally pustular.

          • james 6.3.1.2.1

            using the term for knocking out another baby for the purpose of getting re-elected – yes.

            But as usual – you miss the big point.

            • adam 6.3.1.2.1.1

              And you show us once again you have no moral compass.

              Each and every day your lack of morals just becomes more and more apparent james.

    • Stunned Mullet 6.4

      The smears are deranged drivel.

      One of the other headlines at the blogsite which has the smears –

      ‘Exclusive – Is Jacinda Ardern another KGB Tavistock Agent Working for Putin & Netanyahu?’

      Batshite lala land stuff.

      • Chuck 6.4.1

        I had to google for the blog site you hinted at above…”shape-shifting alien lizard conspiracy” kind of says it all 🙂

      • james 6.4.2

        “deranged drivel”.

        Thats the best it could be described as.

      • BM 6.4.3

        Has it all come from that one website?

        • adam 6.4.3.1

          Oh look if three of them say it , it must be true.

          You lot are tired as you are predictable.

          Proof, just show some real proof your not scumbags, with no morals, who hate on working people. That’s all we are asking for.

  7. Enough is Enough 7

    It has only taken our new Government four months to turn this country around.

    $600M more tax collected than what National had forecasted.

    Let the good times begin

  8. eco maori 8

    If anything happens to me like the games the sandflys are playing with me on the roads every time I get in a vehicle.
    That will turn ECO MAORI into a Martyr then YOU will have really big problems you create OK sandflys. Ana to kai

  9. Muttonbird 9

    Bill English gone.

  10. veutoviper 10

    BREAKING – Bill English holding press conference at 11.30am. Expected to step down.

    EDIt – He was late for Nat Party Caucus and Mary and two sons at Parliament with him.

    • greywarshark 10.1

      Bill English stepping down? Our caption contest had a sharp edge? Listen in to Radionz.

      And if you have been doing so and heard Rod Oram, there seemed some very interesting points raised. Ad would have some comments about this I imagine. Trade with Russia and Fonterra. Possible unhappiness with Fonterras initiatives of recent years by shareholders.

      NZ government revenue is highly leveraged Rod says. When times are good this works well, but when there is a drop gummint needs to be prepared to borrow and initiate activity? (and there is room to do so within conservative management policies.)

      English goes on Tuesday 27 February. (I misheard and thought it was 22 Feb.) He referred to the weight of service hanging over the whole family for many years, and it was an emotional moment for him. (This is not verbatim and my take on it.)

    • RedLogix 10.2

      Interesting. Let me put it this way, while I can imagine a world in which I could actually vote for Bill English, there just isn’t one in which I ticked a party led by any of his probable successors.

      Well that was a long career and in years to come he’ll be remembered a bit like Jim Bolger, ‘for a Tory he could’ve been a lot worse’.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.2.1

        Funny that, you could say roughly the same thing about Helen Clark ‘for a leftie he could’ve been a lot worse’.

        Wonder what will be said about Jacinda in years to come

        • greywarshark 10.2.1.1

          I wonder what will be said about you PR in the years you have left? And then – dearly loved …..

        • Barfly 10.2.1.2

          >about Helen Clark ‘for a leftie he could’ve been a lot worse’.<

          Attention to detail! – or are you saying Helen Clark is a man?

          • Puckish Rogue 10.2.1.2.1

            No thats my bad, I should have been more careful on the cut and paste, heres what I should have said:

            “for a leftie she could’ve been a lot worse”

      • tracey 10.2.2

        I can’t. He is a pseudo nice guy. He engaged lawyers and accountants to steal from us with a veil of legitimacy, he denied a housing cris, he denied poverty, he proppped up Ruth Richardson and her lot. he lied about a hole when he knew the real hole was 21b which he and Joyce hid from PREFU. ALL of his actions enabled the appalling attack and denigration on our vulnerable that is prevalent today. He oversaw a campaign designed to set kiwi against kiwi.

        Anti gay marriage (an dcivil union) anti aborton

        Fed farmers given adavnc enotice of the decision furthe rproving their place as a Nat lobby group (and NO they do not represent farmers in NZ, only about 15-20% of the despite what they Nats and media portray)

        Nope, cannot envisage a world where he would ever have got my vote.

        • halfcrown 10.2.2.1

          Well said Tracey Agree 200%

        • greywarshark 10.2.2.2

          I have often wondered about the stats of how many ordinary farmers – on the land – actually feel that Fed Farmers is good for them and their needs.

      • weka 10.3.1

        Wow, only just caught on he’s not just stepped down as leader but is leaving parliament altogether and immediately.

        • alwyn 10.3.1.1

          Former Prime Ministers MPs should always be allowed to do this when they step down. If they want to hang on until the next election that is fine but they shouldn’t continue past that.
          Lange and Muldoon are two who hung on and on.
          They both ended up as sad figures from the past hanging around the House. Lange admitted when he finally quit, in failing health, in 1996 that he should have gone earlier but he wanted the money.
          Muldoon also stayed on, a thorn in his parties side, until he also stood down in ill health at the end of 1991 not long before his death.
          Both should have gone long before their actual retirement date.
          English has the time to try a new career. He is, after all, only just 56.

  11. greywarshark 11

    Here is link for Rod Oram, economic watchers might think it striking stuff.

    Radionz
    business economy
    Business commentator Rod Oram
    From Nine To Noon, 36 minutes ago
    Listen duration 16′ :54″

    More bad news from Fletcher Building and Fonterra invests in a controversial joint venture in Russia.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018631839/business-commentator-rod-oram

    • Leonhart Hunt 11.1

      that sounds about right.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2

      Those wealth creators at it again.

      • greywarshark 11.2.1

        They haven’t cottoned on to the George Constanza method of success –
        When you are a loser – just do everything the opposite and by a sort of logic you should then be sure of success, with your fingers crossed.

  12. eco maori 12

    The sandflys master are really upset about me cutting there farcical Tpp to pieces they are playing all the low down moves today people here is a music video to show them ECO MAORI Mana

    https://youtu.be/CevxZvSJLk8
    Ana to kai

  13. greywarshark 13

    Technology annoying. Woogle have to have a noise start when going to the search line. It is something to do with some game they have devised. It’s not a toy so stop trying to amuse the punters will you developers; just stay out of my head.

    • Rosemary McDonald 13.1

      Its supposed to be something to do with the winter olympics, a blizzard type noise or the sound the luge makes…who knows? Damned annoying, and until I muted things I thought my laptop had finally caught fire.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        I know, I know – just had that same feeling myself. Have I got tinnitus, are there cicadas in the room, is there something collapsing behind the computer? Everyone is trying to be so clever these days. Its exhausting, I wish they would stop and spend 30 minutes having a drink and pondering about life. I think that’s what’s needed these days – more pondering time.

        • Rosemary McDonald 13.1.1.1

          “…are there cicadas in the room”

          We have been pondering how to utilise the sadly deceased crickets invading our home at the moment. Deceased, because they are so numerous stepping upon them is unavoidable. Someone in the house just told the dogs they have to develop a taste for them…

    • bwaghorn 14.1

      good on peters , english has been part of a government that has dragged politics in nz to new lows.

    • I did like Ardern’s mention of how English’s children were born and raised while he was an MP – gets a jab in, but with full deniability.

    • alwyn 14.3

      What did you expect from Winston Peters?
      Once an a*hole, always an a*hole.
      And he is, supposedly the “Right Honourable” Winnie the Pooh.
      That is one title that should definitely be dumped.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3.1

        Stop being so politically correct. On this subject, Peters says what we’re all thinking. Diddums.

        • alwyn 14.3.1.1

          You might think exactly the same thing.
          It certainly doesn’t say much for your character then.
          I guess, if that is the way you really think, the second line of my comment must apply to you as well.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3.1.1.1

            Hi there! I’m your very own asshole.

          • McFlock 14.3.1.1.2

            What sort of character makes banal platitudes when a mediocre leader with a history of failure is finally put out to pasture by his supposed colleagues?

            The public “servant” was on double or treble what most NZers get for the better part of three decades, still felt the need to double-dip on his accommodation allowance, and during his career participated in some of the worst economic abuses of society’s most vulnerable we’d seen in a century.

            Well done, good and faithful servant, indeed…

            • Grey Area 14.3.1.1.2.1

              Well put. I’ve found the praise of the Double Dipper today nauseating.

              I’m not a big fan of Peters but sometimes he nails it.

              He brought some healthy perspective to the assessments of English.

  14. eco maori 15

    Ka pai Duncan & Zane from Rock radio your segment with Johnny K the lawyer is a good service for he Tangata the kumara
    never tells how sweet it is but I got the welcome home sirens again they are up set ECO gets blamed for lots of phenomenon Ka kite ano

  15. Morrissey 16

    It’s hard to credit, but the lamentable Richard
    Dimblebore is becoming even more obnoxious.

    His interruptions and condescending remarks begin at about the 4:00 mark…

  16. Matthew Whitehead 17

    Wellington people who want something to do tomorrow evening, there is a public meeting featuring Jane Kelsey and Laila Harre about the TPP-11 at Wesley Church. See:
    https://itsourfuture.org.nz/nationwide-public-meetings-tppa-11/
    for more details.

    Nelson, Chch, and Dunedin meetings still have a bit more time before they occur if you want to plan around them.

    (If I had spotted this earlier, I would have posted it, but with all the news today and as a last minute notification… lol no. I hope plenty of you showed in Auckland!)

  17. TB 18

    Yes we should donate as much as we can; we wouldn’t want the Tongan Royal family to dip into their personal massive coffers, would we.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

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