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Open mike 13/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 13th, 2019 - 189 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

189 comments on “Open mike 13/03/2019 ”

  1. WeTheBleeple 1

    50%, or 5/10 headlines topping NZH website today have a dollar sign in them.

    40%, or 4/10 mention ‘celebrities’.

    NZH, complete and utter shite.

    • patricia bremner 1.1

      Too true!! WTB

    • bwaghorn 1.2

      Oh God don’t morph into Paul please!!!!

      • WeTheBleeple 1.2.1

        LOL. Who is Paul, is he handsome and witty?

        • Andre

          More recently known as Ed, and probably even more recently (and briefly) known as Jinx. Definitely not witty, in fact completely devoid of any detectable humour whatsoever.

          • WeTheBleeple

            OK. That’s not me. I feel very strongly about comedy. I even got arrested once trying to smuggle comedy into Germany.

            • Puckish Rogue

              That sounds like one of the very best conversation ice breakers ever

              • WeTheBleeple

                Maybe you could try it on Jude?

                How is the Judith campaign? We’re cheering for you.

        • bwaghorn

          He boycotted the herald and many other things but always new what was on the front page and screeched regularly about it. . Must have been telepathic.

          • greywarshark

            Pseudo-pseudo majorly concentrated on funnelling the USA and world disasters to us. I wondered why he seemed stuck in a rut, but after WtB’s count of its headline groupings, if he looked at the Herlad that would have been predictable.

            Just one word of amelioration about the Herald – it does produce some good factual stuff; we aren’t seeing it become the National Enquirer yet.

          • mauī

            I believe he boycotted the paper version. Looking at the front page for free to see what topics they were covering was a very smart move by Ed.

        • greywarshark

          A good rejoinder and sets a high bar for the rest of us.

    • NZH New Zealand’s best fush and chip wrapping paper. it is full of RWNJ B/S IMHO

      • rod 1.3.1

        NZH is committed to the Truth so they say, and Read it and Believe it. Thanks granny, Who would not agree to that. (sarc) .

    • mauī 1.4

      Thank you WtB. You remind me so much of Ed, thank you. We were so fortunate to be graced with his presence here.

  2. left_forward 2

    and RNZ this morning:

    Media sending out unhelpful ‘news’ despite 110,000 children dying annually from now preventable disease!

    • vto 2.1

      Don’t the anti-vaxxers have questions to answer over this outbreak?

      What do they have to say, all those strident opinionsters who for so long harangued others for vaccinating?? Why have they all gone quiet?

      What do they say to the outbreak? Surely there are a few anti-vaxxers around these here parts …. come in anti-vaxxers … what say thee

      • Gosman 2.1.1

        Yes but the rates of Autism are plummeting /sarc

        • Skunk Weed

          ,,,, and Gossie measles are going through the roof another National Party outcome result ?

          • Gosman

            Eh???? Why are you pinning this on National? In case you missed it, they haven’t been in power for well over a year.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2

        Hmmmm…in these times, where even expressing an interest into thoroughly investigating all aspects of what are now considered conventional practices (be it vaccination, fluoridation of public water supplies, widespread 1080 use, widespread agrichemical use etc) is going to attract a shit tonne of ‘strident’ pro-ers tearing one to bits and accusing the ‘antis’ of being the cause of all the worlds problems…is it any reason your so called ‘anti – vaxxers’ are keeping a low profile?

        Judging by the comments sections of msm articles about all of the above issues…it is the ‘pro’ lobby dishing out the bulk of the shit in a ‘strident’ manner

        So. Being a person who was raised to make my own inquiries I’ve gone to the source, so to speak, and downloaded the current Immunisation Handbook from the that august institution the Ministry of Health.

        http://www.moh.govt.nz/notebook/nbbooks.nsf/0/5B75258BCFDED7CACC257CF4007CE5B8/$file/immunisation-handbook-may14-v2.pdf a mere 670 pages of everything you didn’t know you needed to know about this very important issue.

        The Disclaimer, though, kinda made my eyebrows rise….


        This publication, which has been prepared for, and is published by, the Ministry of Health, is for the assistance of those involved in providing immunisation services in New Zealand.

        While the information and advice included in this publication are believed to be correct, no liability is accepted for any incorrect statement or advice.

        No person proposing to administer a vaccine to any other person should rely on the advice given in this publication without first exercising his or her professional judgement as to the appropriateness of administering that vaccine to another person.”

        Confidence, much?

        • alwyn

          Those sort of publications always have that sort of warning.
          There are people who simply cannot be given immunizations. There is apparently at least one child in this category at the Christchurch school. Quite why that is so I don’t know.
          Anybody reading this publication you have is merely being told to consider the individual health situation of the person concerned before going ahead with the injection.

        • Stunned Mullet

          “No person proposing to administer a vaccine to any other person should rely on the advice given in this publication without first exercising his or her professional judgement as to the appropriateness of administering that vaccine to another person.”

          Confidence, much?”

          Yes absolutely, this is standard risk management by the MoH, no different from the provision of any medication or medical procedure to a patient. Benefits must out weigh risks…do no harm etc etc

          • soddenleaf

            yes. The harm from not immunizing only eventuate if they loudly declare how they are justified they are not to, and enough of the herd follow their lead. It’s like they want to kill lots of people and get a egotistical high of the higher ground.

        • greywarshark

          The Min of Health is just protecting itself from possible expensive legal claims that people who have endless negative cautions, and a positive desire for litigation, are adding to the maelstrom of matters to fear and defend oneself from.

        • Molly

          Have only just caught up on this thread Rosemary. Thanks for taking the time to try and take the heat out of the discussion.

          I don’t agree with any premise that mandates compulsory medication.

          I’m surprised that so many progressives become authoritarian so easily.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            “I’m surprised that so many progressives become authoritarian so easily.”

            Exactly the concern expressed five minutes ago by a family member…and its not just over this issue.

            I find it quite scary, and deeply saddening.

            • Molly

              I read some of Linus Pauling’s work on Vitamin C, and remember an article about a vaccination programme in Australia on aboriginal children.

              A doctor working with the children, advocated for the administration of Vitamin C before any of the children were vaccinated. He theorised that their diet did not provide their immune system with the ability to respond to the vaccinations as expected. Ridiculed for this procedure, when he left his post the fatality rate for immunised children rose as high as 50% in the Northern Territories. And this was in the 70’s.

              A quick google comes up with an article relating to this.

              There is a long and terrible history of forced medication or medical intervention. Measles seems to be a very low bar to call for compulsory vaccination.

              Many people who have had iatrogenic experiences, don’t have the blind faith in medical institutions and decision making that is required for such clear non-questioning compliance.

            • WeekendWarrior

              Wouldn’t you say that many on this site are authoritarian in their views with regards to the action required to address climate change? And rightly so. Evidence suggests action is required on climate change.
              When the evidence overwhelmingly supports the case that vaccines work, and they keep the community safe, then we have a right to be “authoritarian” in those views, and we must always call out those who choose to ignore the evidence. Vaccinate your kids, or stay out of our schools. The exception obviously being those who cannot vaccinate based on medical professional opinion – which is exactly why the rest of us need to vaccinate – to keep those who cannot vaccinate, safe!

              • Rosemary McDonald

                “When the evidence overwhelmingly supports the case that vaccines work, and they keep the community safe,..”

                Possibly the most recent evidence that that statement is false…

                ” In spite of protecting against the diseases, DTP-vaccinated children had fivefold higher mortality than children who didn’t receive the vaccine.

                We have repeated this finding many times. Protection against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis seems to come at a very high price: increased risk of dying from other infections, such as respiratory infections, particularly for females. Translated into absolute numbers, the results indicate that the use of DTP vaccine in sub-Saharan Africa may cost tens of thousands of female lives every year. ”

                The researcher is not saying all vaccines are bad and is not saying that all non live vaccines should be banned. She IS saying there is a very, very real problem with the order in which vaccines are given. She IS saying (well, implying) that because the whole discussion around vaccinations has become so polarised, these vital research findings are very likely to be lost in a(nother) shitstorm of extremist rage.

                But. Whatever. I never cease to be awestruck at the absolute, blind commitment of some on these pages to a particular point of view, regardless of any information that might come their way that ordinarily would make a person have a further wee think.

                Another frustration is that many here seem almost incapable of actually reading an article or paper all the way through…yet still feel they have the authority to comment, and worse, dismiss it.

                • left_forward

                  It would have been more convincing if you had provided a link to that source before railing against people not reading it.

                • left_forward

                  Protecting children’s health is extremism? Funny old world.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    “Protecting children’s health is extremism? Funny old world.”

                    Of course not, silly! 🙂

                    Mandatory, forced medical treatment that in far too many cases causes harm or even death to children should be questioned, no?

                    This is not extremism… but it is treated as if it is.

                    • WeekendWarrior

                      How many deaths have been avoided over the last few decades due to the vaccines? I would hazard a guess that this far outweighs the risks. It is the risks that you seem so fixated on, even if the evidence suggests the benefit to society outweighs these risks. You are looking for a perfect solution to eradicating these illnesses – I’m sorry, but there will never be one. But to expose the vast majority of the population to these illnesses based on a low level of risk from vaccination would be absurd. I’ll stop arguing at this point – as pro-plague people are extremely painful to argue with.

              • Molly

                I would consider myself very concerned about climate change, and an advocate for effective changes, information sharing and planned transition. My personal individual choices reflect that as well as my attendance at a couple of select committee hearings and protests, and my commitment to submitting to government when possible.

                Yet, I believe an authoritarian approach is one that treats people like children and dismisses any questions or concerns. Ultimately, it creates division and builds resistance to change. It may be the choice of the frustrated – and satisfy in the short term – but in the long term it takes greater energy to sustain and often results in significant pushback.

      • JohnSelway 2.1.3

        I prefer the term “pro-plague” to “anti-vax”

      • Anne 2.1.4

        One of the few occasions I fully agree with Duncan Garner:


        Imo, these anti-vaxxers come from the same school of thought as the anti-fluoride crowd and the Climate Change deniers. They never read any of the reputable information available. Instead they follow fringe nutcases who have no scientific or medical credibility whatsoever. Nutbars paying homage to nutbars.

        There’s an Aussie woman on her way to NZ to spread her brand of anti-vaxxer poison. She should be banned from entering the country on the grounds she represents a danger to the community at large. In this case I strongly suspect she’s a con artist making a lot of money out of the anti-vaccine campaign.

        • alwyn

          Perhaps we could follow the example of the Italian Government.
          From an Economist daily newsletter I get.

          “Italian children can now be turned away from school unless there is proof they have been properly vaccinated. Parents of unvaccinated children aged between six and 16 can also be fined up to €500 ($565). Lorenzin law, introduced following a rise in measles cases, requires immunisation against a number of illnesses including chickenpox, polio, measles, mumps and rubella.”

          Come on “Dr” Clark.
          Bring this in here.

          • Anne

            I would support such a law being introduced here.

            Imo, the health and lives of children in particular trumps any freedom of speech concerns.

            • One Two

              From what level of understanding would you support such a law, Anne?

              That you endorse hate speech views such as garners on this subject signals your understanding of vaccine science is literally zero…

              If you actually cared about children, you might take the time to spend learning and undstanding more about the subject…

              The global researched and archives issues relating to vaccine science (which is the anti-science) people like to project onto other groups…is building daily in support of maimed, damaged and killed children, Anne…

              Or are you comfortable to disregard the body of evidence?

              If you would like a discussion, and some links, I can share you many (to peer reviewed research)…

              Do it for the children, Anne…you say you care about them…

              • Anne

                The global researched and archives issues relating to vaccine science (which is the anti-science) people like to project onto other groups…is building daily in support of maimed, damaged and killed children, Anne…

                If I read you correctly then that is one of the most obnoxious pieces of crap I have ever encountered on the subject. It serves to highlight the necessity for a law to prevent that kind of hair-brained garbage from being advocated in public places.

                And Nigel Latta expressed the same views as mine on Seven Sharp tonight except in a rather more diplomatic fashion. (Not online yet)

                Btw, I was professionally trained in both the physical and psychological health and well being of children.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Anne. Please read/watch the article One Two linked to ….


                  Precis….live vaccines good and can have health benefits beyond the target disease. Dead vaccines….not so good…in fact bad in far too many cases…especially for girls.

                  Very simple precis, and I sincerely hope it gets your attention.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    Live vaccines priming the immune system. Absolutely no surprise there though it is a wow moment for me that the coverage is more comprehensive than the targeted disease. And this was found for multiple live vaccines. Wow.

                    I kinda see why doctors prefer the dead vaccine and why mothers do not. But patient harm in any form needs to be put under serious scrutiny. Is there any test for a pre-condition of immuno-compromised people?

                    I geek out on tweaking plant immunity with various microbes and fungi, viruses are over my pay grade – we did have a relatively
                    comprehensive look at HIV in postgrad. Damn thing evolves…

                    Our tutor was one of the ones that died on flight MH17. Damn shame that was.

                    • greywarshark

                      About a century ago there was a woman helping Australian Aborigines at a time when polio was being vaccinated agai

                      Sister Kenny devised a way of treating polio victims that had better outcomes than previously. One of her ideas was that the vaccine shouldn’t be given to someone at a time when they had a cold, or their health was compromised. I think that would fit in with your idea of having a pre-condition that would affect immune systems.

                      She also did a lot of work keeping their limbs moving so that they didn’t end up as permanently disabled.


                • One Two

                  And yet you’ve offered zero, nothing to counter the comment I made…but go right ahead…you believe it’s “obnoxious crap and hairbrained garbage”… you must be able to back it up…

                  Surely if you’re supporting punitive laws, endorsing violent hate speech , you must have legitimate counters to my comment, Anne….you must have a level of understanding of the core issues…the research…the harm…the damaged and dead…

                  Surely, Anne…you must have…or how can you offer written support of such laws coming to Nz…Endorse censorship…you must have knowlegde and understanding to counter…

                  I’m offering you the opportunity for an open discussion…only you on this subject Anne…because you supported the hate speech I’m calling out…

                  I also believe you are a higher calibre of commentator on balance, here in comparison to others engaged in this discussion…

                  With respect…if your training was from your understood generation (based on your comments)…then it will be terribly outdated and in need of a refresh…

                  So go right ahead, Anne…provide substance of your position to endorse hate speech against children and parents…censorship and punitive legislations…

                  Your link…your words…your support…back it up…

                  • Anne

                    Here we go… Nigel Latta talking about vaccines on Seven Sharp. Scroll past the weather and it’s the first item. Listen to Hillary and Jeremy after the end of the interview following the brief ASB ad. They make a couple of pertinent points couched in humour:


                    I’ll go with Nigel Latta and the medical authorities every time.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Nigel Latta. He’s a bit akin to a much loved teddy bear isn’t he? Hauled out, dusted off and cuddled so we can all feel comforted and secure. I had no idea he was an expert on immunology and vaccination science.

                      On second thoughts Anne…DON’T WATCH/READ WHAT DR BENN HAS TO SAY.

                    • One Two

                      Fair enough Anne. That is the level of propaganda which you’re amenable to…that your level of understanding is derived from…

                      You’re not alone in being fooled…there are too many ‘fools’ …on either side of the discussion…including the paid ones in the link you posted…

                      You see Anne, it is not a binary discussion…despite your preferred propaganda channels imploring you to believe…it is a deeply nuanced, complicated set of (actual science) , not vaccine science and its pseudoscience relative, psychology…components…deeply personal…

                      You, and each and every individual…paid or unpaid who share…or pretend to share the same views…are already relegated to the sidelines of the discussion…while the minority goes about what the minorities through history…always go about doing…

                      That you so callously disregard the global scientific community’s body of archived research, performed and disseminated to those adults and parents who take full responsibility for their offspring, by spending time and energy learning and understanding that research…

                      Says that you Anne, have chosen…at this point in your life…not to grow…not to further your knowledge…not to gain understanding as to why it is you…and the ‘authorities’ you refer…who will continue to lose ground…who will continue to lack understanding about why…the vaccine science industry…has lost its position…

                      And you will continue to blame those who do know…who did the research…the science…who suffered the damage and loss…who shared the actual science with other adults from all professional and non professional backgrounds…to decide for themselves, the best choices to make for their children…

                      While yourself…and all those whose views you relate to…will continue to belittle and berate those…who took the time to grow and expand themselves…for the good of others…

                      And you and your ilk…will believe it is ‘others’…who are stupid…who are gullible…who are uneducated absorbers of fake news on the internet….

                      But that, Anne…is already the projections of those who have been sidelined…because real science…is never settled…

                      It had already moved on from what you ‘believed’ it to be…decades ago…and you’re not interested in updating yourself…

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                      Thanks One Two. It’s reassuring to know that you’ve done all the research because you care so much… and still come up with the wrong outcomes.

                      Vaccines, amongst other public health methods, have lifted health quality outcomes like being free from communicable diseases and living longer to heights almost unimaginable 100 years ago.

                      But of course some stupid fuckwits on the internet know better than 97% of health professionals because they’ve done some reading. This is the magic number of scientists that confirm global warming is correct. So how can the same proportion of doctors be so wildly incorrect in your opinion?

                  • Sam

                    Personally I don’t want my kids going to schools with other parents children who are trying to be 3rd world worriers. Vaccines should be legally mandated or no entry into public schools.

                    • One Two

                      You must have paused for a moment to consider what drove your thoughts on legalizing mandatory vaccination…

                      Can you frame the basis of your thinking in terms of, medical, scientific, legal and ethical constructs…

                      I’m certainly interested to hear the level of though behind the two sentences…

                      You’re recently commenting here…which is why I’m taking the time to ask you…

                    • Sam

                      The anti-vaccination movement is, by and large, a first world thing.
                      Take the polio vaccine, afaik, the oral polio vaccine, which has its risks. And is basically something given in (sometimes literal) shitholes where the disease is rampant anyway.

                      Vaccines are by definition of “reality” not 100% risk free: You can be allergic and only find out when you go into a seizure. It’s just that those situations are rare.
                      As in, between 1:1.000.000-2.000.000.

                      The risks of dying to something like measles, is even less with proper healthcare something like 1:1000, are you young, are you not that strong, you get pneumonia, and sometimes that’s it right there. It happens. In less priviliged societies? It kills.

                      The simplest and most direct means of discrediting the antivax movement is to give them what they want. Give them an exemption form to sign.

                      With the caveat that any offspring of their who falls ill and transmits the illness to another who latter on dies from something that could have been prevented with vaccination will be considered a sign of manslaughter and the full weight of the law will act on them in that regard.

                      As long as the people involved clearly understand the risks of vaccines and why it’s so important to society to be able to control communicable disease down to manageable levels then I don’t see any reason why people can’t live and let live.

                    • One Two []

                      Only a single comment to respond with…covers the largest flaw in your core of your thinking…

                      * vaccinated communities have been proven to spread the same diseases (and mutated versions of) which are supposedly ‘vaccine preventable’ by injecting the vaccines(s) which manufactures, lawmakers and doctors, recommend,advise/force people to inject…to prevent from catching the [virus]…

                      Get better informed…no excuses for that level of missing data…

                      I’ll not be responding to you further on this subject…

                    • Sam

                      Bulshit detector: 1+2=4

                      Translation: Before vaccines the death rate was 100%.

              • greywarshark

                I do not like you using the words ‘hate’ speech One Two. It seems to me that they are being thrown around far too frequently.

                Hate speech encourages KKK to go and hang African Americans, and to burn down their churches.

                It shouldn’t be used about people who have a different point of view and argue strongly for it. Biased they are, foolish and bigoted perhaps, but hate is another bloody four letter word like rape. There seems little respect for language and meaning when such words are used freely.

                • One Two

                  Gw…you respond to enough of my comments to have realized that I do not use certain terminologies or insults…or hyperboles…

                  I call that link out for precisely what it is in this case..

                  Agree in principle with your view on overused terminology…

                  Which is why I reserve use of terminologies for genuine and appropriate use of them…

                  Such as in response to Annes link…and comments of support for the content of garners *.*

                  • In Vino

                    One Two: most of us accept that we live in an imperfect world where there are very few perfect solutions. Most of the time we are forced to choose the lesser of two evils, and I think this is one of them.
                    If all the anti-vax arguments are true, so be it – vaccination is an evil.
                    But I for one would much rather have had the risky vaccinations I have had, than suffer from just one of the nasty diseases I have been protected against.
                    For the vast majority of people the nasty diseases have a far more devastating effect than the vaccinations do , and for those who suffer from vaccinations, maybe we have to wait for medical science to help them as well..
                    Lesser of two evils.
                    If vaccinations had ever looked like being worse than the disease avoided, a huge majority would have become anti-vax.
                    Are you now going to tell me I am an innocent victim of propaganda?

                    • One Two

                      In Vino, your comment indicates you’re ok with people making choices with regards to bodily autonomy, and forced medication…that position alone, is a respectable one to hold…

                      There are many points in your comment which I could address and which I could show are logically incorrect…but they are your perspective and your decisions to take for yourself…

                      What I would suggest is that no-one who involves themselves in having an opinion on vaccines, should allow themselves or others, the disservice of complacancy , laziness or ignorance by believing what they are told…or believing what they ‘know’…

                      Western medicine (the corporate consensus variety) has seemingly no interest in accepting why it might be an evolutionary necessity for humans to get sick and self heal, thus gaining genuine full cell immunity through a powered up immune system…it is what our bodies have been doing since day one…our immune systems are amazing just as they are…

                      Pure hubris to think that short circuiting and tricking the immune system with chemicals is not leading to human beings becoming sicker, with more illness and diseases in younger cohorts than modern medicine provides any answer for other than…more drugs/vaccines and toxic allopathic protocols…

                      Our spieces has evolved symbiotically over [forever number] of years with the very microbes we believe we have somehow mastered, and can control…and should eradicate from the environment…they can’t be…not by human beings…

                      To your final question…innocent victim…no not at all…just someone whose comment also indicates they need to invest more time into learning about the flaws in vaccine science…which actual science has now moved to unreservedly, exposing…

                      So much research and scholarly material available which could assist with helping people to make more well informed decisions for their own well being, and that of their loves ones…

                  • greywarshark

                    One Two
                    I have kept an open mind as to your comments and the veracity of the beliefs, information, references etc. But the longer they are and the more you use emotional language, the more wary I become of your statements.

                    For once Sam comes up with something informative. And it is a serious matter which he takes through giving freedom to anti-vaxers with a waiver of treatment for their children. And a case to answer of involuntary manslaughter when they cause deaths.

                    The simplest and most direct means of discrediting the antivax movement is to give them what they want. Give them an exemption form to sign.

                    With the caveat that any offspring of their who falls ill and transmits the illness to another who latter on dies from something that could have been prevented with vaccination will be considered a sign of manslaughter and the full weight of the law will act on them in that regard.

                    Then he makes the point about plagues that they cause 100% deaths. Which may not apply to measles, instead there will be numerous cases of people being debilitated badly, blind etc.

                    Measles infections can harm the front or back of the eye, possibly causing vision loss or blindness. Though measles is just re-emerging as a threat in developed countries, the disease has long been a leading cause of childhood blindness worldwide.Mar 5, 2015
                    (Some American Academy that blacks out everything over cookies)

                    As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.

                    One in ten will get ear infections and some hearing loss also.

                    In her book about her travels in early New Zealand colonial times, Florence Harsant travelled in remote areas where Maori had been struck down by measles. She was horrified to find whole households laid low, parents unable to care for children, and no-one in the village with medicines and no help from authorities.
                    She had to plan to escape herself from a travel limitation set up by either Maori or surrounding colonists, and advised health authorities herself.

                    As Sam says, this is a first world thing, with emotional people who haven’t been taught decision making, analysing risk, ratios and percentages and means and averages etc. And in life there is risk, and that we are surrounded by unsterile air, and constantly ignoring advice to wash hands after going to the toilet etc. – noticed in public places.

                    There are irresponsible people, there are ones who despise western medicine, there are others who are fatalists. One woman I knew of was a Pacific Islander of determined decisions, and she would not allow her teenager to use asthma aids, such as an inhaler. When her son died from an asthma sttack, the authorities did not know what to do for the best. I don’t know whether she was even charged with neglect. Some parents can not be reasoned with. Public health is set up to assist us, and has, but they must be watchful to keep up quality. Whatever they do, though there will be criticism – too early, too late, wrong type, over-spent on the wrong virus line.

                    • One Two

                      Gw..and with respect…you’re clearly underinformed on this subject…take responsibility for your weariness…do not transfer your shortcomings onto my commentary…

                      Others have tried a similar tactic in the 5G discussion…it is a tactic of the disingenuous …

                      I addressed the logical failings in the core premise of Sams proposal…

                      Why are you ignoring my response to Sam, regarding known and proven vaccine failure rates?

                      That is…the spread of the very disease individuls were vaccinated against catching..

                      Messaging with people who do even tale the time to invest in learning vaccine 101 is not productive…

                      No emotions Gw…you’ve read me incorrectly…and you’ve written a novel…

                      Edit. You should stop using derogatory terms…I believe you are above such use of anti-v***

          • patricia bremner

            Alwyn for once I entirely agree with your suggestion. Producing proof of vaccination is a good idea which would save lives and prevent illness. I had polio, measles 2 kinds, mumps and chickenpox. There is no advantage having these diseases and every advantage not to.

            • alwyn

              Join the club. So did I.
              Amazing that any of us made it to adulthood isn’t it?
              I cannot understand anyone who refuses, or is simply to lazy, to vaccinate their children.
              Some still believe that disgraced English doctor with his b*s about a connection between the MMR vaccination and Autism. Now there is a dreadful example of a human being.

              • Andre

                One of the things the pro-disease crowd sometimes go on about is Big Pharma make money from vaccines so that inherently makes them suspicious.

                Yet that fucking fraud Wakefield was busily patenting his single disease vaccines in order to line his pockets and consulting on lawsuits in order to line his pockets all the while he was fabricating his data that happened to support those activities. But somehow, he’s a hero to the pro-diseasers?

                • alwyn

                  Wakefield. Yes now I remember the name. When I read about his activities at the time he was kicked out of the profession I got so mad at his behaviour I never wanted to read anything more about him, EVER.

                  When I wrote the comment here I couldn’t recall his name but I refused to google the story because it would simply make me so mad about that vile person again. So rather than do so about all I could think of to say was ” that disgraced English doctor”.
                  The number of kids who must have suffered so he could attempt to line his pockets.

            • Heather Grimwood

              Whooping cough was best…after the awful coughing the rest of 6 weeks off school to ride bikes up and down SH1 (wartime and almost no traffic. Seriously, they were all dangerous. Think the first immunisations were for diphtheria early 1940’s, done at school.

          • McFlock

            I think in Canterbury, right now, that measure should be introduced using the Health Act powers.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          “Imo, these anti-vaxxers come from the same school of thought as the anti-fluoride crowd and the Climate Change deniers. They never read any of the reputable information available. Instead they follow fringe nutcases who have no scientific or medical credibility whatsoever. Nutbars paying homage to nutbars.”

          Well that’s part of the problem right there, and I referred to this at 2.1.2 .

          I struggle with the need to fluoridate all drinking water. To me it makes no sense when tooth decay is not caused by lack of fluoride.

          Yes I do agree our climate is changing, the sun is more intense than 20 or even 10 years ago, and that we definitely need to urgently seek and implement ways to try and mitigate the effects. (Although I fear rampant capitalism will see our ultimate doom as a species.)

          I exercised discretion when it came to my children’s immuisations, which is not to say I didn’t have them vaccinated. As I mentioned a few days ago….MMR was very new and there were anecdotal cases of serious adverse events (NOT autism…!!!) which made a few folk understandably nervous. Very frustrating that with the release of MMR the old single measles jab became unavailable…even if we were willing to pay. When the Hep B vaccine was being given to newborns there were concerns from some groups. I asked a GP if my 18 month old needed the jab, and was told there was no way he was going to catch Hep B…he wasn’t in the at- risk group. So why the mass vaccination program if the disease is a risk for only specific sections of the population?

          I’ve have tried (and failed) to find the official register of significant averse effects from vaccinations…..where is it?

          Calling people ‘nutbars’ and ‘murderers’ for vaccine hesitancy is merely going to widen the divide.

          Surely respect and open communication would be more productive when engaging with the small percentage of parents who decide to eschew all vaccines for their children?

          And as Nikki Turner from the mysterious (and in part funded by the drug companies http://www.immune.org.nz/sites/default/files/IMACSponsorweblistAugust2018.pdf) said…”I don’t think we should ignore the anti-vaccination lobby but I think we should put it into context.

          “It is a very small percentage of the New Zealand population.

          “We need to understand it and respond to it, and definitely put more resources and thinking into it, but it is a very small part of why we are not getting high immunisation coverage rates.”

          Dr Turner said there were other problems with delivering immunisations, beyond what she called vaccine hesitancy, and New Zealand would be better off dealing with those.”


          Now it would be manifestly unreasonable to expect a shock jock media personality to actually take a calming breath or two and actually do some proper research…or even check with the head honcho from IMAC before launching into their lynch mob rousing speech…but I’d expect most of the commentators here to at least keep a tiny portion of their minds ajar.

          • Anne

            Surely respect and open communication would be more productive when engaging with the small percentage of parents who decide to eschew all vaccines for their children?

            I would have agreed with you say… 20 years ago but not any more.

            I’m talking generally and not just about anti-vaxxers. Respect and open conversations do not work with many of these people. Their anti-ness has become ideological to the point of religious fervour. To begin with, they are the ones who refuse to communicate respectfully with the actual experts and denigrate them to the point of defamation and slander.

            It is time for them to be called out for what they are – fools. Fools who are putting their children’s – and other people’s children’s – health and a viable future in serious jeopardy.

            • Rosemary McDonald

              “To begin with, they are the ones who refuse to communicate respectfully with the actual experts and denigrate them to the point of defamation and slander.”

              Is it possible for you to provide a link or two as examples of this? I am seriously interested.

              And again….according to the IMAC chief, so called ‘anti-vaxxers’ are a very small part of why we are not getting high rates of immunisation coverage.

              So…it may very well be the the anti- vax brigade are as angry/shouty/hate- speechy as the pro- vax lynch mob….but they are not having the effect on immunisation rates you seem to think they are.

              According to the experts. 😉

          • One Two

            The attacks are becoming more desperate and transparent by the day…

            Annes endorsememt of garners hate speech is the lowest of todays misinformed and damagingly ignorant statements…


            The article is one of the most balanced I’ve read in ‘mainstream’, and the author contributes to what is an insightful comments section…


            For the misinformed, underinformed and ignorant, this article could cause some problems…to what you ‘think you know’…

            • Rosemary McDonald

              Well. One Two…thanks for just about ruining our mince and noodle dinner.

              What a powerful piece of work, and for those who can spare the time the Ted Talk is totally engrossing.

              This should be turning the whole vaccine debate inside out…but as the Doctor Benn says…the whole issue has become so polarised that each side will try and use the findings to give credibility to their stubbornly held point of view. And the very, very real potential benefits of accepting the findings and changing the way we vaccinate will be lost.

              Thank you One Two for posting this.

              • One Two

                No worries, Rosemary…It was really for people such as yourself…it’s not my role to change anyone’s views…that’s an individual choice to expand…

                I was highly surprised such an article was published on TC…and the comments section allowed to continue on…

                Some of the comment links are also probable triggers for folks here…

                For the time being I’ll limit any linking, as per my comments a few days ago…I’m a long way over this discussion…except to call out those who publish and/or endorse violent hate speech…

                The progapanda levels are a signal the establishment has completely lost the decades long control, and they know it…

                Real science , research, knowledge and thinking has moved on…people are no longer kept in the dark (unless they willingly choose to be)…and in a few years from now…it will all be over…

                Have a good evening…hope you recoverd the meal alright…

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  ‘I was highly surprised such an article was published on TC…and the comments section allowed to continue on…”

                  I had to check with a scientist the credibility of The Conversation (because I have trust issues ) and was assured that it was ‘… usually OK…much better than the Guardian’.

                  The comments section I’m going to read right now.

                  Passionate commitment to one’s point of view/beliefs/ideology is all very well if tempered with an open mind and respect for the commitment of the opposition…blind adherence and all that.

                  How many more deaths before we can be brave enough to put our dogmatism aside?

                  Thanks again.

                  • One Two

                    On the subject of vaccination , TC is about as low level as it gets. If you have time…brave some of the other articles over the years…it’s likely that you will pick up the themes and discourse TC publishes…

                    Often comment sections would mirror the majority on todays thread, here, and then the comments gets closed off…as soon as a counter or two is visible…it is a consistent form of censorship…perhaps due to lack of mods available…but it is an observable occurrence…

                    I would say that spending prescious time reading anti-scientific and outdated articles about research which only represents established industry position…can be unhealthy…but you’re definitely up to it should you choose to…there is years worth of it on TC…

                    The piece I linked to, I’ve had to read multiple times in appreciation of the author and her professional yet honest demeanour within the article, as well as her responses in the comments section…gold nuggets can be found…

                    I’ve been reading through the linked material in comments as some of the linked material and commentary was new for me…I will also watch the ted talk…perhaps TC should leave comments sections open on this subject…

                    To your question. Many, many magnitudes more than the total global deaths from measles in developed nations…over the past 50 years…

                    Be well…and you’re welcome…

            • Molly

              Thanks for the read. AFAIK the live polio vaccine, which was on the immunisation schedule many years ago was changed to the dead polio vaccine after a couple of incidents where mothers got the disease after immunising their children.

              I had read many years ago about the benefits of live vaccines, but can’t remember where. Also, about the difference in immunity robustness from people who had the vaccine compared to those who had recovered from the disease. The immune system was much stronger, and the article/paper was discussing the possibility of the body responding with changes to the respiratory system, or mucous membranes, that is not achieved with vaccinations. Sorry, I can’t remember more, it was a while ago.

              • One Two

                Hi Molly…

                Salk was to have said the live polio vaccine was responsible for +/- 100% of polio…it was replaced but the damage was done…

                The Cutter Incident

                With regards to live vaccines and the article in particular…there is also large archives of research of contraindictions resulting from live vaccines, the manufaturing, storage and transport problems including the adjuvants required (similar to attenuated vaccines) which are also problematic…

                I linked the article as it is one of the most balanced I’ve encountered in a mainstream web site…and can be understood and progressed from by those who are interested…

                • Molly

                  Was a good read One Two, and worth the couple of minutes it took to do so.

                  My children are grown so the vaccination issue is one I don’t look into much anymore. But I am always surprised by the vitriol expressed on this issue, and the calls for mandatory medication. This could be a result of the medium that allows for collective censure, which brings out the bully in all of us, but I can’t remember it being that divisive twenty years ago.

                  • One Two

                    Thanks, Molly…

                    It certainly is testament to the psychological abuse pushed repeatedly at the public, setting parents against eachother, children against eachother as well as children against their own parents…

                    It has been ramped up to levels which have essentially exposed vaccine science for what it always was…something masquerading as science…there is a word for that…

                    The aggressive campaigns through corporate media leading to poorly advised and punitive legislations, have created the situation you describe…

                    Hostile is an understatement…all aimed in the the wrong directions…

            • Stunned Mullet

              Your link cites a study suggesting that, while the DTAP vaccine protects against infection from those three bacteria, it makes children more susceptible to dying from other causes. If this were true, it would certainly concerning however..

              It was published in a rather obscure journal. This by itself doesn’t give us an indicator of the quality of the paper, but if we really had data that showed us there was a concern with the DTaP vaccine, an important part of the childhood vaccine schedules worldwide, it should have been published in a higher quality journal.

              The study looks at the mortality rate after the vaccine used at that time, which contained the whole-cell version of pertussis. That vaccine was pulled from the market and replaced with an acellular version. Reasons for changing the vaccines are complex, but it was partially because of the higher rate of minor adverse events with the wP version of the pertussis vaccine. There is no evidence I am aware of that the wP version caused more deaths than the current aP version.

              The study only examined 1057 children, which is a tiny number in any epidemiological study that tries to compare one group to another to examine a potential effect. Many case control studies that examine vaccine effects (either effectiveness or adverse events) use 100,000 to several million patients and there’s certainly far more data on this vaccine available now at medicine regulators around the world.

              The number of deaths that was used in the study was tiny, sometimes only 1 death in a population group (like female unvaccinated children). Because they used such small numbers, unintentional bias could occur.
              The deaths were not categorized and may have absolutely nothing to do with vaccination. With such small numbers analyzed, it’s possible that unrelated mortality could have given results that could change dramatically with just a handful of unrelated deaths.

              Ironically, the study showed that there was decreased mortality with the children who received oral polio vaccine (separate from the DTP vaccine). If we accept this statistically suspect small sample as unbiased (which we can’t), the overall results are positive with a full vaccination.

              This leads me a critical point in the vaccine debate that those critical of vaccination cherry-pick studies that support beliefs about vaccine safety, the antithesis of real science. If we look at larger studies more broadly, what can we say about the safety profile of the DTaP vaccine?

              There’s a Danish study that included over 805,000 children looking at various outcomes to getting multiple antigen vaccines, such as DTP or DTaP, came to this conclusion:

              ‘… results do not support the hypotheses that multiple-antigen vaccines or aggregated vaccine exposure increase the risk of non-targeted infectious disease hospitalization.”

              In a meta-review, considered by many as the pinnacle of high quality scientific research hierarchy, which included over 183,000 participants in 58 different trials, the authors concluded that,

              ‘..Acellular vaccines have fewer adverse effects than whole-cell vaccines for the primary series as well as for booster doses.’

              The authors found no vaccine related mortality for either vaccine, which completely contradicts the belief about the lack of safety of the DTaP vaccine.

              Hviid A, Wohlfahrt J, Stellfeld M, Melbye M. Childhood vaccination and nontargeted infectious disease hospitalization. JAMA. 2005 Aug 10;294(6):699-705. PubMed PMID: 16091572.
              Mogensen SW, Andersen A, Rodrigues A, Benn CS, Aaby P. The Introduction of Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis and Oral Polio Vaccine Among Young Infants in an Urban African Community: A Natural Experiment. EBioMedicine. 2017 Mar;17:192-198. doi: 10.1016/j.ebiom.2017.01.041. Epub 2017 Feb 1. PubMed PMID: 28188123; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC5360569.
              Zhang L, Prietsch SO, Axelsson I, Halperin SA. Acellular vaccines for preventing whooping cough in children. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2014 Sep 17;(9):CD001478. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD001478.pub6. Review. PubMed

              • One Two

                Mullet, good on you for having a genuine go at contributing to the discussion in a meaningful way…

                I am responding as a show of appreciation for that comment…

                Comments I’ve posted, yesterday and today provide ample starting points for those who are interested and were able to pick up on them…as such I am not going to address the mesh of points you attempted to raise…

                Except these few:

                * You, nor anyone in the entire human populace is aware of ‘the entire volume of research’ let alone map it all out…so absolutely…you are not aware of ‘evidence’…same applies to any individual or agency who uses that deceptively misleading statement

                * Published in a ‘big journal’ is subjective speculation on your part , and your part only. It transparently leads into the next dot points in effort to create a sense of dismissive minimizing of the research team, the report and the findings

                * Cherry picking is your projection and does not alter the validity of the findings in the 190 page report, that you’ve actually cherry picked data from in an attempt to further dismiss and minimize the research findings

                * The study reported positive and negative outcomes from the research, and you seek to trivialise all findings claiming ‘size bias’ without referencing the duration of the researched study

                Ironically, vaccine science and corporate testing protocols and regulatory licensure have achieved approval to market, including recommended schedule vaccines using highly dubious (documented) tactics and inferior ‘research protocols’ from smaller test cohorts alongside truncated , fast tracked timelines

                * Danish studies including the link you posted to last week, have a track record of corporate sponsored ‘research’ becoming reference studies of the vaccine science industry, used ad nauseum by vaccine advertising dependant journals and media outlets

                It seems you have more to offer the discussion, than the usual remarks and name calling would suggest…

        • greywarshark

          Join the anti-brigade and travel the world! Be like another Jordan Peterson; looking long-suffering and devoting your life to telling other people that what they think is wrong and that you have superior enlightenment; because.

          A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. Charles Spurgeon
          Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/

          The power and wisdom from a group of women in simpatico can trounce the findings of any scientist/s. (The same goes for men.) – Quote, Me.

          Book: The Poisoned Needle

          • WeTheBleeple

            Well, if you come from a broken home with nothing but shitty role models you might understand the attraction of a man who gives you straight up good advice. The demonisation of Peterson, as some of his views are nonsensical, detract from the fact he’s put a lot of people’s lives back on track.

            And the left can’t stand it. He doesn’t preach but it’s based in biblical teaching. He explains why. They don’t care. Utterly shitty people protesting just to protest, you find them at every protest, just wankers looking for excitement in their meaningless lives.

            Society, instead of learning what they can from all this, taking the good, made blanket statements of condemnation and all we learned is there’s a lot of judgmental assholes out there prepared to lie and distort things to get their column inches.

            It’s trendy to hate Peterson, and banal.

            Maybe people think the public will think they’re clever if they one up an intellectual.

            you need to watch his talks, not listen to the attention clamoring press.

      • Andre 2.1.5

        I’m waiting for the first lawsuits by the kids of anti-vaxxers pro-plaguers (good point JS). Suing their parents after they catch a fully preventable disease because their parents refused to get them vaccinated.

        It’ll probably be someone like this dude …


        … or this one.


    • Molly 2.2

      “110,000 children dying annually from now preventable disease!”
      These figures need to be put into context, eg:

      Five million children under the age of five, dying from preventable hunger

      • left_forward 2.2.1

        Yet hunger is not the context here. Because there is other bad shit happening, it does not minimise the stupidity of playing russian roulette with a child’s life.

        • Molly


          But don’t use random facts without context – unlinked to source – and consider it persuasive argument.

          • left_forward

            It was a parody of the RNZ headline (a source didn’t go with the style).

            It is the most appropriate source for anyone interested in the facts. Someone wih your views ought to know these facts which can then be contrasted with any risk of an adverse effect. Caring and committed child health professionals throughout the world, well appraised with the facts, are entirely convinced by the weight of evidence. Why would you not trust them, but instead trust an anonymous web site spinning crap?

            World Health Organisation – not very random.

            • Molly

              Interesting that you know what my views are – since I haven’t articulated them on this thread…

              You have such faith in a medical system and drug clinical trials that allows you to accept all information without question. Some ask questions anyway.

              • left_forward

                Yes you have – and now you have again.

                I have faith in the scientific process that utilises qualified people to continually and robustly investigate and test the basis and foundation of knowledge. I trust the motives of people who care for children and I listen carefully to what they say.

                For illustration check out the comprehensive and continually expanding list of studies published on the Immunisation Advisory Centre’s website:


            • Rosemary McDonald

              “Why would you not trust them, but instead trust an anonymous web site spinning crap?”

              Which anonymous web site?

  3. Ad 3

    I’d like to give another shoutout to Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage for her massive expansion of the National park estate through the Mohikinui River and catchment.

    I would also like to give a great big shoutout to all the activists around and in Forest and Bird who campaigned against that dam, squashed those corporate dogs in Meridian, and ensured this great area remains wild and free forever.

    For those of you who missed it on tv news,


    It includes about 15km of the Mokihinui riverbed, all of the Mokihinui Forks Ecological Area, a large part of the Lyell Range-Radiant Range conservation area and a small part of what remains of North West Nelson Forest Park, most of which became Kahurangi National Park when it was established in 1996.

    The Mokihinui addition to Kahurangi National Park is equivalent in size to Abel Tasman and Paparoa National Parks combined and is twice the size of Egmont National Park.

    Kahurangi is the country’s second largest park and with the addition of the Mokihinui land, it will increase in size by 14 per cent to 517,335ha. Fiordland National Park, at more than 1,230,000ha, is the largest national park.


    Can’t be too long before there’s a proposal to unite Kahurangi with Abel Tasman National Parks.

    Meantime, this is a fine addition, done under Ministerial powers rather than expending legislative time and political capital.

    This is great political work from the Minister.

    • RedLogix 3.1

      That is bloody good news. I did a couple of long tramps in the Mokinui area back in the 80’s, and they shine bright in my memory.

    • marty mars 3.2

      “Abel Tasman and Kahurangi national parks are now connected by a 169-hectare block of land purchased by the Department of Conservation.”


      Not sure why they need to be joined.

      Good to increase the national parks.

      • solkta 3.2.1

        Having them joined allows for easy species migration.

      • RedLogix 3.2.2

        A quick look at the maps shows that AT and Kahurangi NP’s are already very close together; any corridor between the two lies mainly along a relatively short area on the top of the Takaka Hill limestone area, north of the state highway.

        From memory most of this area is pretty undeveloped, marginal farmland or regenerating. There are some private dwellings scattered about in the area, but nothing at any scale.

        Surely a formal corridor would be feasible, even if it didn’t have the full formal status of a National Park, along with all the restrictions that would imply. Something more like say a Forest Park that permitted existing activities and dwellings, but protected it from further development?

        You’re more familiar with the area than I am, would something like that work?

    • Matiri 3.3

      Great news!! Now, we just need to add the Matiri River Valley to the park on its eastern boundary. Oops too late, construction of the hydro scheme is under way. This was one that got the nod from the John Key government – payback to the Talley family for years of National party support.

      Lake Matiri is a wildlife refuge and part of Kahurangi NP, the Matiri River Valley was deliberately excluded due to its power generation potential. Despite significant local opposition, the power scheme was consented quite some years ago. The Talley family chose not to make a start (power prices too low?) and recently sold the consent to Pioneer Generation, Talleys still own the land. DOC could have refused the concession due to lack of required reports etc but didn’t. Pressure from above??

  4. patricia bremner 4

    .Well done indeed Eugene Thanks Ad. A good post. I see they are leaving the remains of the monster wasp nest in the tree at Hamurana, for fear of poisoning the stream.
    Pest control always has fish hooks, but is worth it.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.1

      I know there is an issue of scale…but I have dealt to wasp nests by enclosing said structure in a heavy duty plastic bag, tying off the top and cutting the whole caboodle free from it’s anchor. Bag containing wasp nest can then be further contained until inhabitants discorporate. This can be sped up by freezing. Or chemicals.

      Of course…the use of a plastic bag might not be acceptable either….oh, life is getting sooo complicated!

      • Ad 4.1.1

        Best wasp nest fun I had was three years ago, 3 metres long underground.

        Sourced the two entrances at dusk; a deep crack in the clay.

        Mixture of diesel and dishwashing liquid.


        Volcano out both ends.

        Shoveled clay over top.

        Just awesome fun, and neighbourhood improved.

        • Andre

          Woulda been even more exciting if there was another undetected entrance that led under the house. Seen that almost happen, not quite under the house but uncomfortably close…

          • Ad

            It was at the edge of the forest so we had hose and filled buckets ready for sparks.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          Hah! When a neighbour deployed one of those sonic rodent deterrers, our usual non chemical methods of keeping the rat population down in our chook house failed. (The rats moved to our place.) The rats congregating in broad daylight to give us the single digit salute coincided with the failure of a large batch of very hot chili paste to seal properly. We emptied the contents of the bubbling jars down the most used rat runs…..

          Back in the day when one could purchase strings of double happy firecrackers….

          • Blazer

            Surprised to hear those sonic devices even work!

            Most animals ,including dogs react the first time they hear them…then ignore them.

            • WeTheBleeple

              Tell me about it. I was developing the ultimate cat collar that warned birds and lizards but not mammals. Didn’t work…

              • Sam

                Cats are apex predators. You may as well just euthanise them if you don’t want them to be apex any more.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Humans are apex predators. But I don’t need to kill for food, and nor do domesticated animals. The problem with cats is not killing for food supply so much, as simply killing for fun.

                  I often wonder if, at some stage, we’d deliberately culled out the ‘cruel’ cats, we’d have a better breed that only killed when hungry.

                  • Sam

                    I’d agree that humans are at the top of the food chain but as far as an apex predator I’d put bears above us. and cats don’t kill for fun, that’s just the human talking. Cats kill vermin that stray in there territory when they not feeding. Cats are cats. I’d suggest people who don’t really understand cats enough to leave them alone instead of dating bits off them and making them carry around fashion accessories, I’d suggest they get a goldfish.

                  • Sacha

                    They ‘play’ to keep their skills up. You’d need to somehow make them vegan, which would no longer be a cat as such.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Muscled, black with steel green eye
                      Swishing through the rye grass
                      With thoughts of mouse and apple pie
                      Tail balancing at half-mast
                      And the mouse police never sleeps
                      Lying in the cherry tree
                      Savage bed foot warmer
                      Of purest feline ancestry
                      Look out, little furry folk
                      He’s the all night working cat
                      Eats but one in every ten
                      Leaves the others on the mat
                      And the mouse police never sleeps
                      Waiting by the cellar door
                      Window-box town crier
                      Birth and death registrar
                      With claws that rake a furrow red
                      Licensed to mutilate
                      From warm milk on a lazy day
                      To dawn patrol on hungry hate
                      No, the mouse police never sleeps
                      Climbing on the ivy
                      Windy roof top weathercock
                      Warm blooded night on a cold tile
                      The mouse police never sleeps
                      The mouse police never sleeps
                      The mouse police never sleeps

                      Songwriters: Ian Anderson

                    • greywarshark

                      Could we develop a family of cats which are really good mice catchers. That would save me putting down poisoned grain and have mousetraps littering the place. I think the parents have to teach the catching skills, so by careful breeding and initiation procedures, they would be very useful cats and not a disdained predator – they could be as valuable as trained sheep dogs.

                    • Sam

                      Dogs have a lineage of pack hunting and scavenging which made them really suseptable to domestication where as cats are extremely territorial and would savage humans in an instance if it was large enough and it’s a simple as that.

      • WeTheBleeple 4.1.2

        Kind of reminds me of catching bee swarms, except we’d use a milk can. Sit open can below swarm, snip attachment – shoomph – hive in a can.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          My encounters with the buzzy things have been during house painting or gardening. I never could see the logic in using chemicals which inevitably infuriate the beasts if one is having to continue working in that area. Hence the containment. Mind you…I don’t have one of those nifty zoot suits.

      • greywarshark 4.1.3

        This wasp nest is right round the trunk of a palm tree and the tree could be damaged. It’s growing on a steep slope, slippery for the blokes, and perhaps slippy if tree died or was removed leaving soil uncovered and exposed to the heavy rain we are getting.

  5. Andre 5

    WTF??!!? Somehow I just took it as given that a major government building initiative would include at least include the simplest and basic energy and cost efficient choices. But it seems not …


    Meanwhile, if there’s any readers with any concern whatsoever for their budget that are still using old-skool incandescent bulbs, get yourself to Bunnings or Mitre 10 today and buy replacement LED bulbs for them. Seriously. Do it now. You can get them for $3 each or less.

    You’ll want warm white colour (unless you like your house to look like the alien autopsy room in a bad sci-fi movie), for most fixtures look at the existing incandescent bulb and divide the watts by 10. I’ve pretty much replaced all bulbs that were 100W incandescents when I moved in with 9W LEDs and I’m happy with the how much light there is. If you want more tech details, ask and I’ll write up a bit more.

    By the $, a 100W incandescent costs $0.02 to $0.03 per hour, so if it’s on an average of 1 hour per day, that’s $7 to $11 per year. Plus incandescents only have a design life of 1000 hours, by industry agreement. Compare to an LED that costs $3 initially to buy, but pays for itself in electricity savings in 3 to 6 months and should last 10,000 hours or longer.

    If you’ve now got compact fluorescents, it’s probably still worth changing to LEDs but the payback time is two or four years. And you get full light instantly instead of the fluorescents taking a minute or so to warm up and get to full brightness.

    • WeTheBleeple 5.1

      Flourescent bulbs were a massive gyp. i think I posted on them here some time back. The past is past. LED’s must have improved cos last I looked at them (probably a decade) they were good for a few months then diminished capacity was the norm.

      I’m certainly open to new improved LED’s.

      • Andre 5.1.1

        Yeah there’s been huge improvements in LEDs over the last decade. But if you’re still suspicious, keep the receipt for a warranty or CGA claim if they do start to fade.

        Ten years ago I paid $6 each for the nearly best new tech available to make myself mountain bike lights – 1Watt chips mounted on a 23mm aluminium star module heatsink that put out a then amazing 100 lumens/watt. Nowadays if I were inclined to do the same thing I’d be paying about $1.50 each for 10W chips mounted on a 12mm heatsink that would be up around 140 lumens/watt.

        The key to long life in LEDs is keeping the chip from getting hot. They’ve learned a lot about getting better thermal paths from the chip to the heatsink, and in turning more of the electrical energy into light so there’s less heat to dissipate.

        • RedLogix

          Interesting info Andre. I knew LED’s had improved, but for a relatively mature tech that’s pretty impressive.

          By complete contrast I recall buying my first red LED almost 50 years ago, it took me ages to save for it, and it barely glowed by today’s standards. But it was worth it just to have this amazing new light source in my own hands.

          • Andre

            Dunno that I’d call LEDs relatively mature. There’s still a hell of a lot of space for improvement that nobody has found a way into yet.

            For general lighting with acceptable colour rendering, a device that turns 100% of input electrical energy into useful light would put out about 370 lumens/watt. At the moment, the best LEDs top out around 200 lumens/watt.

            At the moment, most white LEDs are actually a blue LED shining through a yellow phosphor. So there’s significant light energy lost and heat generated for every blue photon that gets turned into a yellow photon.

            The next level of energy efficiency is combining blue LEDs shining through a green phosphor with red LEDs (these are commercially available as Phillips Hue LEDs at horrendous price). There’s less energy lost turning a blue photon into a green one and the necessary red photons are separately emitted at high efficiency by the red LED. Our eyes also respond to red, green and blue light, so a light source that directly emits red, green and blue has an inherent efficiency headstart over a light source that’s blue and yellow. It’s also possible to vary how much energy goes into the red vs the blue-and-green, so the light can change from a cozy yellowish warm light to a brighter daylightish white when wanted.

            So that naturally raises the question of producing white light with separate red, green, and blue LEDs. Well, nobody has yet found a way to make high-efficiency green LEDs, so that’s an area with potential.

    • Dennis Frank 5.2

      I agree. Seems like Twyford wants to make the coalition look like luddites, but more likely he has been knee-capped by whoever made the design decision. Twyford ought to apologise to the public, acknowledge that the govt wants to implement Green house designs, and direct his department to operate accordingly. Bad looks like this will hurt the coalition unless swift remedial action is taken.

      • Andre 5.2.1

        That a level of detail that should have been dealt to several pay grades below Twyford. As I see it, there’s even a potential messaging opportunity here for Twyford to push change to a new way of doing thing. Where instead of the initial cost ruling all decisions there’s more attention on whole-of-life costs.

        • Herodotus

          Twyford has screwed completely a policy that was 7 years in the making, thru what … lack of any detail to implement, and has not delivered more than a few spec builders would have supplied to the market in the same period.
          To limit to 1st home buyers was a mistake imo, and should the time come that we have any volume, many of today’s 1st buyers will already have moved into a place.
          Honestly can anyone expect 1st buyers wait until an appropriate house comes available in their town/city?

          • greywarshark

            Why would people say that not having LED bulbs installed in the homes was a case of lacking in energy efficiency? The sockets for the lights are the same as incandescent if looking at the cheapest and safest. My incandescents cost a little over $1 each and last six months. It would seem that buying LEDs is better, so if I can get warm white, (I dislike the stark white-blue alernative), and am not price-limited I will buy them. But I like having incandescents as spares that I keep in reserve for failures.

            Not everyone can get cheap LEDs where they shop. Incandescents should be kept as cheap alternartives while education about the LEDs should continue. That easy calculation of dividing by 10 to find the right level of light when choosing LEDs is handy thanks. Looking at the lumens and other terminology is confusing and people have limited time to moon over products gathering information in the shop.

            • Andre

              At my place with 2 adults and 3 kids at home on after dark it was quite feasible for 20 or even 30 bulbs to be lit up. At an average of say 75W each (if they were incandescents) that would be a load of 1.5kW to 2.5 kw, at peak time. and maybe 3 to 5 kWhr per day just for lighting.

              Swap those to LED and it’s around 0.2 to 0.3 kw lighting load at peak time, and less than 1 kWhr per day usage for lighting.

              How is that difference not an energy efficiency issue?

              Furthermore in a new build you can design the lighting around the characteristics of LED lighting and the way LEDs are more directional. LEDs also don’t generate enough heat to risk starting fires if something like insulation or wood is too close. The insulation issue can be a big one, it’s surprising how much warmth can get lost through old-skool ceiling downlight fixtures that have to have the insulation set back quite a distance.

  6. Blazer 6

    Eric the ‘ripper’…Owen Glenn,NZ taxpayer,anyone who had the misfortune to deal with him,it would seem.


    • greywarshark 6.1

      Cullen Group? Is that a deliberate thumb-to-the nose cheeky go at Sir Mike the Upright and exemplar of Austerity and Probity?

      • Blazer 6.1.1

        No.He has used that name for his investment companies for yonks.

        • greywarshark

          Michael Cullen has been involved with finance for yonks. Just to refresh us on old but important history:
          When the Prime Minister, David Lange, attempted to limit the influence Douglas had on the government’s direction, Cullen became involved on Lange’s side. After Labour’s re-election in 1987, Cullen was made Associate Minister of Finance (an attempt by Lange to provide an anti-reform counterbalance to the radical Douglas) and Minister of Social Welfare (an attempt to limit the impact of the reforms in that area).

          Eventually, Douglas was forced to resign, but a month later the political controversies around the dispute prompted the resignation of Lange himself. Douglas was succeeded as Finance Minister by David Caygill, one of his allies (albeit a considerably less radical one). Cullen was made Associate Minister of Health, again to reduce the effect of reforms on that sector.

          When Labour lost the 1990 election (something attributed by many people to public anger at Douglas’ reforms, and disarray within the Labour Party), Cullen returned to being Labour’s spokesperson on social welfare. The following year, he replaced David Caygill as the party’s chief finance spokesperson…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cullen_(politician)

          Watson founded Cullen Investments in 1995.

          • Blazer

            Watson owned Westbury Stud Karaka…’Cullen to stand at Westbury Stud in the spring’2001.

            Cullen was foaled at Segenhoe Stud in Australia in 1996.

    • Eric the Ripper has a good ring to it, he and Hotchin towelled up a few investors here in NZ and even managed to get Sir Owen Glenn over a barrell. Karma is a bitch isn’t it.

    • alwyn 6.3

      Their was one thing that was missing from this report.
      The IRD, in 2002, approved the scheme. They gave an opinion that it was an Approved Issuer and that the 2% was the correct rate.
      The in 2010 the reversed their opinion. That, unfortunately is something the IRD do quite commonly. The effect is that people who relied on the opinion given by the IRD find, much later on, that they have changed their mind and claim taxes and penalties for something they said was fine.
      I have no objection to them changing their view. However I don’t believe they should be able to backdate the change.
      It is rather like them dropping the blood alcohol limit from 80 to 50 and then fining everyone who was measured at a level between 50 and 80 at a time when that was quite legal.
      It is, in practice, passing a retrospective law.

  7. Blazer 7

    ex National P.M not short of a $!

    ‘Shipley also invests US$50,000 in Richina. According to numbers quoted by Richard Yan during the court case, Shipley’s investment in the Chinese company could now potentially be worth US$14 million ($22 million), on paper at least.’

    Reading this,it seems very clear what was going on here.There is a name for it that begins with F.


  8. Exkiwiforces 8

    Here’s a couple of interesting articles on insurance, or not being able to get insurance in specific areas due to risk from natural disasters or the result of CC.



    Now remind me of what the role of the former State Insurance was prior to it being sold and what the then muppets said about the market is always right as there is no need to have a Government own/ backed insurance company.

    I’m a little bit surprised that the IAG can 50% of the market share in Wellington and if IAG is prepared to do this to Wellington, then what does this say IRT other parts of the country that are at risk from earthquakes and volcanic eruptions?

  9. Poission 9

    opening books

    At a briefing on the new indictments Tuesday, Andrew Lelling, a U.S. attorney for Massachusetts, said that some parents paid up to $6.5 million “to guarantee admission” for their children to elite colleges. He said that a total of 33 parents have been charged.

    “There will not be a separate admissions system for the wealthy. And there will not be a separate criminal justice system, either,” Lelling said.


  10. WeTheBleeple 10

    The only thing I want to go to California for:


    There’s something magic about a desert suddenly blooming. Enjoy.

    • AB 10.1

      Nice WTB – I might refresh a couple of pots with those orange Californian poppies before winter hits.

    • ianmac 10.2

      How about we ditch the lawnmower and plant a range of pasture grasses and flowers instead which wouldgrow unhindered and as the season changes so do the different species?
      Seems strange that we spend so much time mowing stuff and annoying the suburbians.

  11. Sabine 11

    Pro-life my arse.
    I can’t quite put in word how much i despise these fucking forced birthers and how much i despite doctors that would let a women develop a sepsis before ‘aborting’ the rotting fetus she carries cause ‘heartbeat’.


    “In one case, a patient who had suffered cardiac arrest shortly before getting pregnant did not meet the hospital’s threshold for life endangerment and was unable to afford to travel and pay for an abortion at the nearest hospital that would see her, about four hours away. She ended up miscarrying in her second trimester. In another case, a patient who was dying from metastatic cancer needed abortion care. The hospital took so long to deliberate, she miscarried too.

    “Our conversation should have been like, ‘How can we help you heal and meet whatever your goals are in this terrible situation’, and not about this stupid law,” the doctor said.

    “My hands are tied,” she continued. “I can’t do what’s right for the patient.””

    yes one can keep roe vs wade ‘legal’ yet put up so many ‘trap’ laws that effectively even a women dying of a septic pregnancy will not get the care she needs. Fucking ghouls hiding behind religion, superstition and simply hate of women. I can’t find other reasons then hate disguised as ‘won’t no one think of the babies’ cause no, you are not fucking thinking of the baby – born or unborn – and you certainly don’t care about the ‘host’ aka the mothers. (hosts – https://www.google.com/search?q=pregnant+women+are+hosts&oq=pregnant+women+are+hosts&aqs=chrome..69i57.4072j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 )

    • Sam 11.1

      Well I’m pro choice because arguably the fetus is apart of the woman.

      That’s why in my opinion consent is more important than pro choice. The age of legal consent should be again, and this is my opinion, but it should be 21 – 25 years old to account for brain development and basically there’s no marked improvement in income until you’re a graduate.

    • greywarshark 11.2

      Having to continue carrying a baby that is dead inside you, is one of the joys that the ethical society force on some unfortunate women. It’s not a healthy situation for her, and negates any suggestion that women and their fertility role is respected by society and those in power. A hero – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

      What names do others know of who have championed women in their fertility burden?

    • Shadrach 11.3

      “Fucking ghouls hiding behind religion, superstition and simply hate of women.”
      Yes there are circumstances in which abortion is the only humane option. But I encourage you to watch this. To the end.

      • Sabine 11.3.1

        Honey, i have had abortions, i also head an emergency hysterectomy and there is nothing this guy will ever tell me.

        So no,

        if you read the article above you would understand that i am talking about doctors refusing to render aid to women who come to hospital in pain, unable to walk, with fever and because they are not yet ‘actively’ dying do not get the health care they need and should be entitled too.

        But maybe you missed the part that i put in quotes ‘ had miscarriages in the second trimester’ cause obviously it is more important for the women to suffer some more month then give them the care they need.

        So take your preacher / ob gyn and shove him where its dark. Cause this guy will never be denied healthcare, he will never be left to fester with a dead fetus until he ‘actively is dying’ and he will never have to make the choice of having an abortion at an early stage or when you are told that your child that you wanted is growing with a brain outside the skull or has not lungs and that you can’t have an abortion cause hey, women, you are a host, and as such you would have no issues birthing this child and then watch it die.

        Pro life my ass. Forced birth. Once born, pull yerself up by your bootstrap child.

        • Shadrach

          ‘…you would understand that i am talking about doctors refusing to render aid to women who come to hospital in pain…”
          So why the rant about abortion? The issue you are raising is a valid health issue, not necessarily connected to access to abortions.

          “Honey, i have had abortions, i also head an emergency hysterectomy and there is nothing this guy will ever tell me.”
          That’s rather closed minded. He has performed thousands of abortions, and is describing the utter inhumanity if the process. It is chilling.

  12. Cinny 12

    So happy, bye bye secondary tax 🙂 I work two jobs so am thrilled about this.

    Thanks government, this was one of the reasons I gave my party vote to Labour last election 🙂


    • lprent 12.1

      I like this one…

      add new KiwiSaver contribution rates of 6% and 10% and make the savings scheme accessible to those aged over 65;

      I’m running on 8% kiwisaver at present, and getting some quite reasonable returns. I wouldn’t mind kicking that up as everything is automatic and way less hassle than dealing with other investments on an ongoing basis. Essentially automatic payments really waste my personal time when they come out of my working account. It doesn’t take much to suddenly be providing the bank with extra revenue with fees. And even worse, I get people trying to ring me when I’m coding which is REALLY expensive.

      Which is why I’ve pretty well eliminated most of automatic payments including those to other investment funds. Paying as part of my PAYE is way easier which is now the only way I do it. Other bills just get paid when I have a few spare minutes on my phone.

      But I would like to push a bit more into investments. It’d be nice to have a 12% or 15%. But 10% is better than 8%

      Also I’m not planning on stopping work (or riding my e-bike to work) unless I really really have to. I’m nearly 60 now and still coding well. Life after 65 will probably still involve me working and demonstrating both current coding and antique techniques to those callow youngsters under the age of 40.


      • OnceWasTim 12.1.1

        “Life after 65 will probably still involve me working and demonstrating both current coding and antique techniques to those callow youngsters under the age of 40.”

        Careful tho’ @ lprent – things like experience and proven record can often account for sweat FA these days

        • McFlock

          until you turn out to be tho only one who can talk to the machine. #consultancyrates

        • lprent

          I have tended to rely less on experience and track records than on companies being desperate to get their projects out of the door.

          Most jobs that I have had in programming for the last couple of decades has been after whoever I went to work for had an unfortunate problem of some kind caused by mismanagement of their projects in their staffing, documentation, design, or implementation and needing someone to recover it.

    • Sabine 12.2

      i am so pleased about it. My shop girl studies, works for me and has a few other side digs in summer when the tourist come. I am so pleased for her that she does not have to pay more taxes on her income now then Gareth Morgan.

    • Sacha 12.3

      This is a good inclusion as well:
      “- exempt directly funded disability support payments from income tax”

  13. joe90 13

    The utterances of Molyneux, Southern and Peterson seem benign compared to the pro-plague propaganda this fucking terrorist is spreading.


    • greywarshark 13.1

      Seems an attention getter, without having to strip, but it really is part of a porn movement to look at me, I’m good looking and achieving celebrity and you can be like me. Tell people things that make them think, or feel they have gone through the motions.

      It’s mental gym here folks, worry about my subject, and don’t waste your energies on the rest of life, which is confusing and debilitating to the mind. Stay with us and reeelaaax your mind, and together we will solve your problems. Half the things you worry about don’t happen. You can have twice as much fun in your life if you just stop worrying about finding the truth and just listen to us; listen to our Foundation; The Foundation of Life.

      Watch out for that in your letterbox and on line soon. Someone will pick up on that to sell something to the peeps.

    • Anne 13.2

      She’s a con artist making big biccies out of gullible parents.

  14. mikesh 14


    Gareth Morgan outlines the arguments against CGT far more cogently than I have done.

    • Sabine 14.1

      poor thing, still trying to get away from tax faster then anyone can say boo.

      Can’t have Gareth Morgan pay taxes. Now that would upset the tax evader.

      Poor thing, did no one tell him that he would have to pay nothing if he is not selling his assets:? Oh that is how he made his money in the first place? Sucks to be him.

      • mikesh 14.1.1

        I think you should address the arguments that Morgan puts up if you wish to have any credibility. Poking fun at Morgan himself seems pretty futile.

      • bwaghorn 14.1.2

        Morgan is actually proposing a far more radical change to taxing wealth that is unavoidable.

    • ianmac 14.2

      http://morganfoundation.org.nz/capital-gains-tax-political-stunt-no-economics-rationale/ Thanks mikesh
      Gareth writes:
      “The Economist advocates, as do I, that such transaction taxes be removed and instead annual levies be applied.

      This inclusion of taxation upon all income to capital (not just homes but all non-financial capital) properly integrated into the current income tax regime…”

      I don’t know what that means. Annual levies? Does that mean like higher Rates?
      I have sought an answer for this but does anyone know how this would be better than CGT?

      • mikesh 14.2.1

        Morgan is not entirely clear on what he means by “annual levies”, but I think he means the tax on imputed rentals. Perhaps The Economixt sees the lack of these as a possible justification for capital gains taxes, but thinks it would be better to apply them on a regular basis rather than as lump sum tax when the property is sold.

      • mikesh 14.2.2

        Morgan provides a link to the Economist article but it’s behind a paywall. However the headline indicates that what the Economist wanted to replace was stamp duty on the sale of a property.

        • greywarshark

          That would be good – a CGT of reasonable percentage on commercial and rented properties. Then stamp duty of a small percentage on all properties.
          Two bites at a luscious cherry. Put that in your pipe and smoke it you lachrymose speculators. (I thought I would throw in a new word to the stewpot with the so many others used in the debate about taxes on housing.)

          • mikesh

            I think you are misunderstanding the comments. The Economist was writing about the British situation, and recommending that their stamp duty be abandoned, and replaced by an annual payment of some sort. Without having access to the Economist article I cannot say what the nature of that annual payment would be.

  15. greywarshark 15

    This happened middle of Feb. It illustrates attitudes that many on this blog have never come across but shows up many in our culture as having a lack of maturity and respect in attitudes to women. And that might apply to women as well, though it is apparently mainly men who replied.

    A woman complained that there were’nt jobs available to locals. If it was her personally, she should have put up her own advert. If it was general she should have not butted in, it isn’t the Finnish woman’s fault and it was just bad-mouthing her instead of the politician who should be controlling foreign workers. But she iwould be unlikely to have put her thoughts to the polly, most NZs just vent, full of sour air.

    And the men who used the opportunity to make remarks that were sleazy or suggestive, that is so childish. They have no awareness of how to communicate in a public place, as on-line sites are, and that shows lack of maturity too. I wonder where these men learned their attitudes towards women? In the home? Is it being passed on down the generations in some farm families? And the old refrain – just having a joke, some people have no sense of humour.

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