Open mike 13/07/2022

123 comments on “Open mike 13/07/2022 ”

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1. Sacha 1

   13 July 2022 at 7:23 am

   Small number of unprofessionals not wanted back.

   https://twitter.com/psirides/status/1546802170627969024
   • Sacha 1.1

     13 July 2022 at 7:51 am

     Rationale

     https://twitter.com/GaryPayinda/status/1546709254702497792
     • KJT 1.1.1

       13 July 2022 at 8:35 am

       Exactly.
       • Anne 1.1.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 10:18 am

         If you can't understand the immense public health value — the life-saving value of immunisations, masks — you've no legitimate place in healthcare.

         I should like to see that quote in big black letters on the front door of every medical facility in the country.
     • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.2

       13 July 2022 at 9:26 am

       For someone at the coalface of a health system in crisis he sure has a lot of spare time to play on Twitter.
       • weka 1.1.2.1

         13 July 2022 at 10:39 am

         some of the best commentary and education about the pandemic is being done by medical people on twitter.

         His tweeting isn't what I would call prolific.

         Your comment is a cheap shot that is beneath you.
         • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.2.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 11:39 am

           Speaking of Twitter….interesting screenshots here from RNZ's Covid 19 Visualistion page before they were memory holed revised.

           https://twitter.com/Greenli44101756/status/1546977876435959808
           • weka 1.1.2.1.1.1

             13 July 2022 at 11:42 am

             what's your point? Tova said something (what?), and someone else posts some graphics from RNZ that aren't there any more (saying what exactly?).
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               13 July 2022 at 12:26 pm

               The obvious question is "Why have those graphs been removed?"

               Or don't you think we should ask that? Especially when we have been told repeatedly how much more at risk of infection and hospitalisation we fucking filth unvaccinated are.

               When (up until they were removed) the daily updated RNZ Covid-19 data visualisations have told a completely different story for a few months now.

               And what exactly are these…

               …recent changes to the way the Ministry of Health reports data have affected some charts RNZ previously included in this page. These have been temporarily removed.

               https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/450874/covid-19-data-visualisations-nz-in-numbers

               Are we (the fucking filth unvaxxed) 6% of the population and 6-7% of new Covid hospitalisations or not? Has there been barely any difference in the rates of unvaxed/vaxxed/boosted with regards to hospitalisations for the past few months… or not?

               Because Town has been saying something completely different…

               Dr Town says a key part of being able to respond to current and future outbreaks is having a clear picture of the impact of Covid-19, particularly among those who require hospital.

               Preliminary data shows two thirds of people were admitted to hospital having Covid as the main cause rather than happening to test positive.

               Town says for those that have been hospitalised with Covid and are not vaccinated, the data shows the rate is about six times higher.

               https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/469078/covid-19-dr-ashley-bloomfield-gives-an-update-on-nz-s-omicron-response

               No doubt there will be some weird statistical maths type stuff that explains this apparent anomaly.

               I wish someone would explain it to me. Please.
               • weka …

                 13 July 2022 at 12:35 pm

                 still no idea what you are on about. I'm sure it's apparent to you but we can't mind read. All I'm getting is that RNZ have removed from graphics temporarily because MoH have changed something.

                 It's like you posted a link to a long article and expect me to parse your point. I'm not going to study graphs to try and figure out what you mean.

                 I'd suggest less of the rhetoric, and just explain in plain English what you are trying to convey.
               • Nic the NZer …

                 13 July 2022 at 12:38 pm

                 The statistical basis for that conclusion is simple to understand. Basically older people are more succeptible to covid infection, they are also more likely to take a booster. Age unseparated statistics can not separate these two effects.

                 Unfortunately NZ doesn't release the data publicly in a form which allows independent verification of that (it runs into some privacy issues), and for some reason there are a whole cohort of people putting up spurious arguments claiming data manipulation of any (correctly) standardised figures which demonstrate that conclusion. But your more expert in that than me already.
                 • Descendant Of Smith …

                   13 July 2022 at 1:50 pm

                   Also mathematically there will always be a point where enough of the population is vaccinated that any who get sick are likely to be vaccinated.

                   Vaccination does not equal a cure.

                   It isn't difficult to understand.

                   If 0% of the population is vaccinated then 100% of the admissions will be unvaccinated.

                   If 100% of the population is vaccinated then 100% of the admissions will be vaccinated.

                   The wrong question to ask therefore is what percentage of admissions are vaccinated or unvaccinated.

                   It is more that you should ask what is the rate of admission for the remaining unvaccinated population compared to the vaccinated population. From that point it gets more complicated such as age profiles etc but it is a very good starting point.

                   https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19/hospitalization-rates-confirm-covid-vaccines-benefits
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     13 July 2022 at 1:58 pm

                     I understood the MoH chart is already a rate in that sense.
                   • Fran …

                     13 July 2022 at 2:38 pm

                     The graphs were good because they were worked out as per 100,000 rather than straight percentages so we were comparing apples with apples.
             • Fran …

               13 July 2022 at 2:34 pm

               [deleted]

               Even more sad is the sheer number of people who have had serious adverse reactions and are being gaslit or declined exemptions. We have a young friend who ended up in hospital with heart issues, it was acknowledged by her doctors and medsafe that it was vaccine caused but the Ministry of Health still refused an exemption. She had the second one to keep her job (mortgage, young kids) and ended up in hospital again, still no exemption for the booster. This is a really common story. Our young friend declined the booster as she was aware that another shot could kill her. She is a nurse and has lost her job as a result. She is well now and could be working but for the shifting goalposts of what fully vaccinated is.

               [delete]

               [This site exists to explore political issues within the context of robust debate. It’s not here for people’s reckons. I’ve deleted most of your comment because it asserts fact on an important topic without providing any evidence.

               You’ve made four claims that need evidence:

               1. that you are more likely to be hospitalised with covid if you have had two or more shots.
               2. that early covid vaccines didn’t prevent transmission
               3. that early covid vaccines didn’t lessen risk of infection in an individual
               4. that covid vaccines don’t lessen severity of infection.

               Please now provide that evidence. Evidence here means:
               1. explain each point in your own words, and
               2. provide quotes, time stamps, or if using graphs, the name of the graph or some other way of understanding what you are referring to.
               3. links.

               The onus is on you to make it very clear what you mean and what the evidence is ie don’t expect other people to read a whole article to parse your meaning.

               You are free on this site to argue anti-vax positions, but you have to provide evidence pre-emptively. We’re more than two years into the pandemic and most of us are sick of going over and over this without any substance.

               Putting you in premod. Also making a note in the back end about this for future reference. If you waste my time on this I will ban you – weka]
               • Nic the NZer …

                 13 July 2022 at 2:52 pm

                 "The graphs show clearly that you are more likely to be hospitalised with covid if you have had two or more shots"

                 That conclusion is not correct because the vaccinated and un-vaccinated populations as different in their ages. You are welcome to ask for clarification if this comment was unclear in some way.

                 .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-07-2022/#comment-1899805
               • Sacha …

                 13 July 2022 at 4:13 pm

                 This is a really common story.

                 No it is not. Believe whatever you want but please do not spread lies in public.
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   13 July 2022 at 4:34 pm

                   This is a really common story.

                   No it is not. Believe whatever you want but please do not spread lies in public.

                   Yes Sacha. It is a common story. I have heard this myself from four people who have experienced similar.

                   Tell you what…you find the documentation that shows "chest discomfort" and "shortness of breath" as common reported side effects of any other vaccine.

                   In case you're not keeping up…https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-44.asp#top10_bar

                   This mRNA product is neither safe nor effective and it beggars belief they are still encouraging anyone to take it…nevermind those under 60 who are largely not at risk from Covid 19 disease.

                   This woman is an expert.
                   • weka …

                     13 July 2022 at 4:39 pm

                     what's the damage done from shortness of breath?
                   • Populuxe1 …

                     13 July 2022 at 4:56 pm

                     You mean things you are quite likely to experience with any vaccination? It's a fairly unexceptional and temporary immune response to an inoculation but you seem to be trying to liken it to actual and extremely rare allergic reaction – why is that?
                   • Rosemary McDonald …

                     13 July 2022 at 5:37 pm

                     OK. Reply button gone.

                     @weka what's the damage done from shortness of breath?

                     Shortness of breath is just one of the symptoms of myocarditis…a known, potentially serious, and sometimes fatal side effect of the Pfizer product. As described in the letter sent to medical professionals in late December last year.

                     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/12/coronavirus-vaccine-linked-death-prompts-reminder-letter-from-ministry-of-health-to-doctors-report.html

                     And on the MOH website…https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-myocarditis-reminder.htm

                     • Myocarditis and pericarditis are treatable. Outcomes are better the sooner you start treatment.
                     • In the first few days after your vaccination, seek urgent medical attention if you experience:
                       • new-onset chest pain (or an increase in severity of existing chest pain), discomfort or heaviness
                       • shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
                       • an abnormal heartbeat or a racing fluttering feeling or a feeling of skipped heartbeats
                       • dizziness, feeling lightheaded or fainting may also occur with the symptoms above.

                       These are potential symptoms of myocarditis and pericarditis.

                     Unfortunately, despite many, many injection recipients having suffered these symptoms (over 6000*) prior to this December 2021 alert, medical 'professionals' were routinely dismissing these symptoms as 'anxiety' and sending them home. With no treatment.

                     Myocarditis and pericarditis are treatable. Outcomes are better the sooner you start treatment.

                     * https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-37.asp#dose2_bar

                     And in reply to my question to Sacha… here is the list of most commonly reported side effects for the flu shot.

                     Injection site inflammation	59	10.7	25.8
                     Arm pain	22	4.0	9.6
                     Dizziness	20	3.6	8.7
                     Headache	17	3.1	7.4
                     Pruritus

                     Nope. No chest discomfort, irregular heartbeat, shortness of breath….
                   • Rosemary McDonald …

                     13 July 2022 at 5:48 pm

                     @Populuxe1

                     You mean things you are quite likely to experience with any vaccination?

                     Like the flu shot for instance?

                     https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/PUArticles/March2020/Influenza-vaccine-2019-what-to-expect-this-year.html

                     If you know of other vaccines which can cause the symptoms of myocarditis at the rates reported for the Pfizer product then please share.

                     It's a fairly unexceptional and temporary immune response to an inoculation …

                     Tell that to the over 900 people diagnosed with vaccine induced myocarditis. And the 12958 poor bastards who reported "chest discomfort".

                     …but you seem to be trying to liken it to actual and extremely rare allergic reaction

                     Where did I liken it to an "allergic reaction"?

                     [please provide evidence for those figures. A link is not enough, see my unbolded comment below – weka]
                   • weka …

                     13 July 2022 at 5:53 pm

                     teh problem with your reasoning is that shortness of breath has many causes. Of those related to the vax, some will be symptoms of peri/myocarditis, some won't. No way have we had 6,000 cases of covid vax related carditis, so let's assume that most of those 6,000 cases aren't carditis.

                     Which brings me back to my original question. What damage is done by those that have shortness of breath post-vax (excluding carditis for the moment)?

                     I've said this to the anti-covid vax people here before: if there are significant numbers of people with adverse reactions that are credibly linked, then start making case studies. Set up websites and document what is happening in a way that the mainstream will take seriously.

                     No, random FB second hand reports don't count. First hand accounts needs to be documented in a systematic way.

                     Because atm, it looks like the serious cases of adverse reaction are getting lost in the hot air. If you truly believe that 6,000 people have had carditis sympoms and have been damaged by the vaccine, you need to provide evidence. If you think you have provided that evidence already then your own credibility is greatly dimished. I can't see it, and you apparently can't explain it.

                     btw, if you want to assert that 6,000 figure again, you need to provide direct evidence. I'm not reading a whole MoH page to try and parse it, I just don't have the time. Point to what you are referring to and explain it clearly or I will simply delete the whole post. I am completely and utterly sick of wasting my time explaining this, so will moderate to maintain some level of debate competency.

                     eg if you have added up some figures, then explain what you have done.
                   • weka …

                     13 July 2022 at 5:55 pm

                     mod note.
                   • Sacha …

                     14 July 2022 at 7:32 pm

                     It is a common story. I have heard this myself from four people

                     Nuff said.
               • weka …

                 13 July 2022 at 4:25 pm

                 mod note.
               • Shanreagh …

                 13 July 2022 at 5:21 pm

                 ……….. We have a young friend who ended up in hospital with heart issues, it was acknowledged by her doctors and medsafe that it was vaccine caused but the Ministry of Health still refused an exemption. She had the second one to keep her job (mortgage, young kids) and ended up in hospital again, still no exemption for the booster. This is a really common story. Our young friend declined the booster as she was aware that another shot could kill her. She is a nurse and has lost her job as a result. She is well now and could be working but for the shifting goalposts of what fully vaccinated is.

                 First of all this is not a common true story, it is a story of urban myth mainly.

                 I have a far bit of skepticism about this. Mainly based on the experiences of two friends, one of whom has an allergic reaction, a known possibility to many injections, and the other who had diminished immunity because she was having treatment for cancer.

                 The first had special care taken because of her inbuilt susceptibility and she was offered and took the opportunity to have a different set of vaccines from those that were approved for the rest of us. These were acknowledged to be less effective but were on hand for cases such as hers. She has been able to keep up her job and did not need an exemption at any stage. This is similar to the acceptance of workers from overseas whose countries opted for different injection regimes from NZ.

                 The second had to have a different regime and timetabling and the oncologist worked very closely with MoH etc to get the correct regime and tweaks that took account of her diminished health and immune status. They were very keen for her to be well and not be put at risk from getting Covid.

                 I have heard stories as 'your young friend' and some are being classed as an urban myth. Certainly my flatmate who is a nurse and who has been nursing a large tertiary hospital all the way through has heard this before. I even raised with her some of the 'facts' about so-called large numbers of nurses leaving because of not wanting to have vaccinations but this had not been a real problem where she is nursing.

                 She says that when she started training through Poly/Uni it was a requirement that they have vaccinations prior to the course starting and maintain these throughout the duration and her hospital has regular reminders and vaccination days for its staff. They have a younger staff who mainly have been trained through Polytechs and Universities.

                 I suggest that the requirements for an exemption may have needed a greater precision about what may have caused the heart problems than had been given to them and MOH may not have wanted to be giving exemptions to workers who could be able to infect at risk patients.

                 As there are openings for nursing experience that do not involve working in a hospital perhaps these could be explored and getting to talk to those who are able to put her on a track with a different set of anti covid injections could be looked at also. The need for injections and requirements is not likely to go away in the near future.
                 • weka …

                   13 July 2022 at 6:02 pm

                   why do you think it's an urban myth?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     13 July 2022 at 8:53 pm

                     Because I am hearing it from several different anti vax angles, including overseas, different hospitals etc. It does not have the ring of truth or reasonableness about going ahead to have the vaccine even though apparently the Dr & Medsafe have warned against it & are powerless to stop the hardline MOH exemption juggernaut.

                     The other commentary about it also used the words a 'young friend' or 'young person'. I would not class a nurse who had gone through the Poly system 'a young person', possibly aged 20 or over. There are avenues that can be used to query a system and to ensure that one's own health is not damaged in a hospital setting. The NZ nurses that I have come across recently would not be cowed into having any procedure that had such deleterious affects. Parts of the nurses training covers taking issues further etc, advocating for patients etc.

                     So at the very least I would take this story with a grain of salt.
       • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2.2

         13 July 2022 at 5:51 pm

         Hi Rosemary yesterday you inferred that Nicky Hager was not honest.

         You also pretty much accused all our journalists working in the MSM of the same smear.

         I hope you don't mind Rosemary if I ask you.
         As the same allegations have been made against all MSM journalists by the deniers of Russian war crimes. And also because I have noticed that a lot of anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists also believe the conspiracy theory that all journalists in the western media are colluding in inventing Russian war crimes.

         What's your opinion. Do you think Russia's invasion of Ukraine was justified?
     • Belladonna 1.1.3

       13 July 2022 at 10:22 am

       Given that barely half of DHB staff have had 'flu vaccinations – it seems that the 'anti-vax' sentiment is much more widespread in reality.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/469464/only-54-percent-of-district-health-board-staff-have-had-a-flu-jab-ministry-of-health-figures-show
       • weka 1.1.3.1

         13 July 2022 at 10:43 am

         Probably more to do with the relatively low efficacy rate of flu vaccine re transmission and people making their own choices about their own health.
         • Belladonna 1.1.3.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 10:55 am

           More people in hospital (at least in Auckland) with flu than with Covid.

           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/470546/middlemore-hospital-data-flu-cases-outnumber-covid-19-three-to-one

           And, yes, I agree that people (even nurses) should be allowed to make their own choices about their own health.
           • KJT 1.1.3.1.1.1

             13 July 2022 at 11:25 am

             And a far lower proportion vaccinated against flu, than against covid. Funny that!

             And. Yes people should be able to make choices about their OWN health.

             When it involves their patients health, however!
             • weka …

               13 July 2022 at 11:39 am

               what's the efficacy rate of the current flu vaccine in protecting against transmission?
               • KJT …

                 15 July 2022 at 7:36 am

                 Vaccine Effectiveness: How Well Do Flu Vaccines Work? | CDC

                 • "During seasons when flu vaccine viruses are similar to circulating flu viruses, flu vaccine has been shown to reduce the risk of having to go to the doctor with flu by 40 percent to 60 percent."

                 Effective enough to be worthwhile.

                 The problem is predicting which flu variation to vaccinate against. Which makes flu vaccinations less effective overall.
                 • weka …

                   15 July 2022 at 8:47 am

                   That’s not about transmission though.

                   (there are other things we can also do to lessen needing to go to the doctor, like extending sick leave so people can sleep and rest when ill).
                   • KJT …

                     15 July 2022 at 3:53 pm

                     The link talks about reductions in transmission, also.
                   • weka …

                     15 July 2022 at 4:04 pm

                     • During seasons when flu vaccine viruses are similar to circulating flu viruses, flu vaccine has been shown to reduce the risk of having to go to the doctor with flu by 40 percent to 60 percent.

                     Nice numbers. 40 – 60% failure too.

                     Is the current flu vaccine in NZ a good match to the current flu virus?
             • Belladonna …

               13 July 2022 at 12:49 pm

               So, given that hospitalizations are 3:1 flu:Covid – surely you should support mandatory vaccination for 'flu for all DHB staff.
               • KJT …

                 15 July 2022 at 7:38 am

                 There would be less deaths from flu caught while in hospital, from infected staff.

                 Unlimited sick leave for medical staff would also help.
           • Anker 1.1.3.1.1.2

             13 July 2022 at 11:28 am

             Thanks Belladonna.. Your comments are well made.

             I am pro vax, pro mask wearing and pro socially isolating (which I am attempting to do now as cases soar).

             What I don't understand is why they don't let unvaxed nurses work, if they have recently had covid? Like with the GP in Murupara.

             The medic above obviously has his point of view but does he really represent everyone in the health service?

             Met up with a young nurse who works in ICU recently and had just recovered from Covid. It is likely many nurses have had it and already have natural immunity.

             I made the point at the time of the anti mandate protest that they shouldn't have got rid of Drs and Nurses who didn't want to be vaxed. They could have redeployed them to non contact roles, such as telehealth triaging as promised.
             • weka …

               13 July 2022 at 11:35 am

               I thought they did redeploy staff where possible.

               What I don't understand is why they don't let unvaxed nurses work, if they have recently had covid?

               Afaik there is no way to know when any individual's immunity to covid wanes (post-infection or vaccination) and makes them more likely to transmit covid again.
             • Nic the NZer …

               13 July 2022 at 11:43 am

               Probably any nurses in this category can work, but have not applied.

               I expect this GP has a slightly better grasp of the particular exception, but this only applies for 3 months.

               To me this seems like one of those issues when, if you check back later on the outcome its extremely marginal if it effected anyone. Bit like trans-rugby players, there are none in NZ male or female AFAIK.
           • weka 1.1.3.1.1.3

             13 July 2022 at 11:38 am

             More people in hospital (at least in Auckland) with flu than with Covid.

             how does that relate to my point that low nurse flu vax rates are "probably more to do with the relatively low efficacy rate of flu vaccine re transmission and people making their own choices about their own health"?

             If the primary purpose of the flu vax in nurses (and other hospital staff) is to lessen the chance of infecting patients, then a low efficacy rate for that is going to affect a decision to vaccinate weighed up against perceived health risks from the vax.

             The flu vax lowering hospital rates is more an issue for population wide vax rates.
             • Belladonna …

               13 July 2022 at 12:48 pm

               My understanding is that 'flu vaccination is roughly comparable to Covid vaccination both in preventing an individual catching the disease, and in preventing an individual passing it on to others. NB: neither are anything close to the 100% mark.

               We actually have no way of knowing who passed on a ‘flu virus – since there is no testing carried out.
               https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

               The profile of individuals most at risk from 'flu is slightly different, but overlaps with the profile of individuals most at risk of Covid.

               If it's not critical for nurses (and other allied medical professionals) to be immunized for 'flu (when hospitalizations for 'flu are 3:1 those from Covid), why is is critical for nurses to be immunized for Covid?
               • weka …

                 13 July 2022 at 1:26 pm

                 This seems off track. If the issue being discussed is why nurses don’t get the flu vax, I’m suggesting it’s because some at least don’t see the benefit. Covid is different because people want to keep their jobs.

                 It’s probably difficult for people who believe vaccination is entirely benign apart from a *very small number of adverse reactions to understand or accept that others believe differently despite not being anti vax.
                 • Ross …

                   13 July 2022 at 9:58 pm

                   There are various reasons why health professionals refuse to get the flue jab:

                   Side effects from the vaccine (main reason)

                   Not liking needles

                   It doesn't work

                   Excellent natural immunity

                   Don't believe in it

                   Of course, my body my choice would likely be a justification, just as it's a fairly important justification for women choosing an abortion.

                   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7238696/

                   https://bmcnurs.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12912-017-0215-5

                   [“It doesn’t work” banned for telling lies and because the mods are sick of how much time you take up. Will update when we’ve decided how long, but expect a long one – weka]
                   • Ross …

                     13 July 2022 at 10:10 pm

                     Or even the flu jab lol
                   • Ross …

                     14 July 2022 at 1:05 pm

                     Too funny. Banned for telling the truth. Try reading the links. And feel free to apologise.

                     “the mods are sick of how much time you take up”.

                     I’m sorry if the mods don’t like facts. Hopefully one day they will enjoy them.

                     [permanent ban for lying about vaccination, lying about moderation, and being a general arse – weka]
               • Craig H …

                 13 July 2022 at 2:50 pm

                 Back when vaccine mandates were first being considered and introduced, the Covid vaccine was far more effective at reducing hospitalisation than the flu vaccine, and also pretty effective at reducing transmission rates. Even now, a 3 dose course (aka 2 + booster) provides 80% protection against hospitalisation from Omicron compared to around 67% ("two thirds") against the specific 4 flu variants covered by the NZ vaccine.
         • Patricia Bremner 1.1.3.1.2

           13 July 2022 at 12:54 pm

           The early 'flu vaccination did not have the prevalent strain. There is a later vax with more of the A strain. They do not always get the mix right. $38 for the later one.
       • Incognito 1.1.3.2

         13 July 2022 at 1:22 pm

         Fourth time I post this link that shows that in 2020 the coverage was 77% across all DHBs.

         https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/2020-dhb-health-care-worker-influenza-immunisation-coverage-feb21.pdf

         Of course, you do realise that the flu season started earlier than expected, that the DHB staff are under enormous pressure (i.e., staff are rushed off their feet), and that the vaccination programme is in full swing still and has not yet been completed, don’t you?

         At 1 July 1,103,776 flu shots had been given, which is already 95% of the total number of shots given in 2020.

         https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/news-items/21660-flu-vaccines-administered-last-week

         It begs the question why you clutch at an alleged ‘anti-vax sentiment’ among DHB staff!?
         • Belladonna 1.1.3.2.1

           13 July 2022 at 1:33 pm

           Not clutching at anything, here. Simply pointing out that (even on your figures) a very hefty percentage of DHB staff do not take up the offer of free on-site 'flu vaccinations.

           20% is not an insignificant number. And, yes the 'flu season was early and projected to be heavy – which is why DHB staff are included in the early availability of vaccinations (along with the high-risk elderly).

           And querying how this is different to mandatory Covid vaccination – given that the figures are showing that hospitilization rates for 'flu outnumber Covid 3:1

           And, that there are numbers (not saying that they're huge numbers) of medical staff who are unable to work in our 'overstretched' (if you don't like the word 'crisis') hospitals – because of their personal stance over Covid vaccination.

           There appears to be a logical fallacy. Either both 'flu and Covid vaccination should be mandatory; or neither should be.
           • Incognito 1.1.3.2.1.1

             13 July 2022 at 1:39 pm

             Not clutching at anything, here.

             Of course, you were clutching; there’s no widespread anti-vax sentiment among DHB staff when it comes to the flu shot.

             Simply pointing out that (even on your figures) a very hefty percentage of DHB staff do not take up the offer of free on-site ‘flu vaccinations.

             Nope, they have not yet taken the free shot, which doesn’t mean they won’t do it all. Logical fallacy there!
             • Belladonna …

               13 July 2022 at 1:49 pm

               Over 20% of them didn't in the figures you quote.
               • weka …

                 13 July 2022 at 3:19 pm

                 Choosing not to have one vaccination doesn’t make a person anti vax. The term anti vax has a specific meaning, let’s not muddy it or water it down.
     • Ross 1.1.4

       13 July 2022 at 12:45 pm

       Dr Gary isn’t the smartest guy in the room. He has failed to mention how more than one million fully vaccinated NZers have caught COVID. That is a lot of unlucky people lol. He also forgets to mention that nurses and doctors can and do refuse the flu vaccine. I’m not aware that health professionals are suspended for refusing the flu vaccine.

       Dr Gary could at least discuss the serious side effects from the Pfizer vaccine. He might be able to regain some of his lost credibility.

       “Pfizer and Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccines were associated with an increased risk of serious adverse events of special interest, with an absolute risk increase of 10.1 and 15.1 per 10,000 vaccinated over placebo baselines of 17.6 and 42.2, respectively. Combined, the mRNA vaccines were associated with an absolute risk increase of serious adverse events of special interest of 12.5 per 10,000. The excess risk of serious adverse events of special interest surpassed the risk reduction for COVID-19 hospitalization relative to the placebo group in both Pfizer and Moderna trials (2.3 and 6.4 per 10,000 participants, respectively).”

       https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4125239
       • weka 1.1.4.1

         13 July 2022 at 3:25 pm

         He has failed to mention how more than one million fully vaccinated NZers have caught COVID. That is a lot of unlucky people lol.

         What does that mean?
         • Incognito 1.1.4.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 6:58 pm

           It means something to Ross, obviously, but to me it means nothing except to show that Ross is wee bit biased and has not special knowledge or insight in this, but I already knew this. Unvaccinated people are more likely to be hospitalised, to end up in ICU, and to die from Covid-19.
       • Populuxe1 1.1.4.2

         13 July 2022 at 5:05 pm

         How many times does it need to be explained to the hard of thinking that being vaccinated doesn't guarantee you won't catch something but it does drastically reduce the severity unless you have severe complications from pre-existing co-morbidities?
         And SSRN is an upload site, it doesn't review content.
         • Anne 1.1.4.2.1

           13 July 2022 at 5:52 pm

           Give up Populuxe1. They don't want to know. Their brains have migrated to an alternate universe where fiction is fact and vice-versa. The chances of any of them returning to mother Earth any time in the near future – or any time at all – is fast fading.
           • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.4.2.1.1

             14 July 2022 at 7:33 am

             Anne and Populuxe 1. I can only ….agree. Actually hard work trying to reason with them. As Reason…is N/A.

             Good on you for trying.
         • Ross 1.1.4.2.2

           14 July 2022 at 7:13 am

           How many times does it need to be explained to the hard of thinking that being vaccinated doesn't guarantee you won't catch something

           How many times does it need to be explained that informed consent is a legal right and a must-have?

           Meanwhile, the PM recently said that up to half of NZers have had COVID. That's a lot of fully vaccinated people who have been terribly unlucky. They could reasonably have expected to be "fully protected" because they were told, ad nauseum, that the vaccine was effective (that is, effective at preventing infection).

           As with any vaccine, being up-to-date with your COVID-19 vaccinations may not mean you’ll be fully protected. However, it is highly effective if people have both doses (and a booster if you’re eligible).

           Or not so highly effective. According to the latest figures from the Health Ministry, the group with the highest number of COVID cases is "Received booster at least 7 days before being reported as a case". That number is 717,476, including 3583 hospitalisations and 113 in ICU. A further 473,815 cases were "Fully vaccinated at least 7 days before reported as a case".

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300634325/covid19-surge-mask-use-boosters-more-effective-than-red-setting–pm

           https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/how-covid-19-vaccines-work#:~:text=Pfizer%20is%20the%20preferred%20COVID,its%20safety%20and%20effectiveness%20profile.

           https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics

           [Stop trolling! You know full well that even a highly effective vaccine doesn’t give absolute 100% protection in perpetuity. You also know full well that protection against infection, against severe illness & hospitalisation, and against death are protections with different levels of effectivity with different time frames (duration). Effectivity also depends on which variant one’s dealing with and these change (mutate) all the time. This is your only warning because Mods have no time to waste on trolls such as you – Incognito]
           • Incognito 1.1.4.2.2.1

             14 July 2022 at 8:40 am

             Mod note
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   13 July 2022 at 7:35 am

   Destiny Church leader Brian Tamaki has seemingly admitted he was responsible for organising more than 100 anti-mandate and government protests.

   "One-hundred-and-sixteen protests later, yes I admit, I was behind them all," Tamaki said in a lengthy address to a crowd, which was recorded and posted on social media yesterday.

   "I organised them, I dated them. Take that," he added to cheers from those as the event.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/covid-19-protests-i-was-behind-them-all-brian-tamaki

   Hmmm…I note Bill Hodge’s …and Wally Haumaha’s comments. Those who wish …could look at Mr Haumaha’s earlier interaction with The Bish.
   • Rosemary McDonald 2.1

     13 July 2022 at 9:29 am

     Poor man. Clearly addicted to the limelight and a narcissist of monumental proportions. He'd do and say anything (obviously) to stay in the spotlight. I'm surprised anyone takes any notice of him.
     • Nic the NZer 2.1.1

       13 July 2022 at 10:28 am

       I think you were going to describe why the protests excluded Destiny. Was this the official psychological character assessment which fed into this decision?
     • gsays 2.1.2

       13 July 2022 at 6:00 pm

       Rest assured, there are plenty of folk that will take Tamaki's utterances as gospel. Just coz it suits their narrative

       Akin to the constant references to anti-vax/far right/nazi's in Wellington.
       • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2.1

         13 July 2022 at 6:14 pm

         In the early days of the Freedom Village there was a rather robust on line discussion about the high public profile sought by His Worshipfulness and his Apostles. Their influence was definitely not desired by the majority and they were considered a liability. As appropriate. Funnily enough, mask wearing was largely eschewed by the Freedom Villagers…apart from some obvious Apostles. Almost as if they didn't trust their god given immune systems to protect them from the lurgee. Or to hide their identity.
         • Nic the NZer 2.1.2.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 6:51 pm

           As I have been requesting for weeks now, please share these critical details. Its very important to understand who and why the organisers of multiple relatively peaceful and presentable prior protests were removed from influence on this protest.

           Also, if shutting out these protesters, pushed them to arson. Maybe the arsonists did infiltate as alleged by Chantelle Baker, just not from police but TFRC (which is the group the video documented arsonist came from). Most people still think of TFRC as part of the protest.
3. Molly 3

   13 July 2022 at 8:26 am

   The dilemma of advocating for women's rights, when representatives from both sides of the political spectrum offer nothing of value.

   Women are a political category defined by biological sex. This obfuscation is harmful.

   https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1546908189324607495?s=20&t=Qiw9ELB-8dnt3TclW8lUwA
   • weka 3.1

     13 July 2022 at 10:53 am

     One thing that stands out is that he didn't challenge the 1 in 5 trans people try to kill themselves argument, although his pointing out that asking questions doesn't cause suicide was important.
     • Nic the NZer 3.1.1

       13 July 2022 at 12:10 pm

       What is this hearing actually about? I'm just wondering why these people were gathered here to question and testify because usually this explains a lot about the perspectives of the people testifying and questioning (much more than any relevant facts or incidents they may put across or ask about).

       Seems like directly challenging the professor may have alerted her that she was stitching herself up for a fool (at least for his audience).
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 12:25 pm

         agree, context always helps.

         Looks like it's the Senate Judiciary Committee looking at abortion law/rights.

         Here is yesterday’s video

         https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/a-post-roe-america-the-legal-consequences-of-the-dobbs-decision
         • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 6:29 pm

           Watched quite a lot of the hearing now. She was actually a fairly decent witness, apart from a couple of exchanges where she needlessly clashed with questioners. This clip could have been avoided by simply agreeing that her term was synonymous with women, instead it made twitter.

           I don't think I understand the context enough to reason about which side is promoted by this notoriety. When the other side is asking a question then the witness doesn't usually get a chance to make a favourable response.
           • weka 3.1.1.1.1.1

             13 July 2022 at 6:51 pm

             this whole thread from Jesse Singal is worth reading. He writes what she could have said instead, but then points out that even that reasonable approach would probably get her accused of transphobia (someone in replies says she was using the term woman as late as 2020, so it's possible she's been punished already).

             https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1546916942866485248/photo/1
             • weka …

               13 July 2022 at 6:53 pm

               He also makes the point about both sides being in bubbles and feeling affirmed by the exchange. This is as good an example of the implosion of civilisation as I've seen from the socio political side. Each side watches the same video and comes away with completely different affirmations of their own subjective reality.

               https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1546941345067110402
             • Nic the NZer …

               13 July 2022 at 7:19 pm

               True. I totally missed that she may need to hide her twitter identity after testifying any different.
           • weka 3.1.1.1.1.2

             13 July 2022 at 6:55 pm

             do you remember roughly what time in the vid she talks about trans issues? I tried finding it but didn't have much luck hitting the right spot.
             • Nic the NZer …

               13 July 2022 at 7:01 pm

               Its about 75% of the time line, near the 2 hour mark.
   • DavidJ 3.2

     13 July 2022 at 2:01 pm

     So this 'law Professor' has no concept of basic biology, and seems unable to answer questions without resorting to labels. This is not a denial of trans people's existence, this is madness, plain and simple.
     • weka 3.2.1

       13 July 2022 at 6:55 pm

       Can't tell if she is in sex denial. Both of them have weaponised semantics. He knows she is referring to trans men, and she knows he is referring to biological sex. Neither is willing to concede the other's point. It's a war.
       • DavidJ 3.2.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 7:53 pm

         "He knows she is referring to trans men"

         Yes of course, but if we've got to the point where "people with the capacity for pregnancy" has replaced "women" in common vocabulary, and to question that is 'transphobic', then we have truly reached peak insanity.
         • weka 3.2.1.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 8:15 pm

           yes. But it's important to understand what is going on specifically. There's a difference between a law professor not understanding basic biology, as opposed to her understanding but believing that gender trumps sex. The latter is what is most likely happening in NZ and it has already driven a lot of legal and governmental policy change. We need to know how to fight that, and calling smart people stupid won't work.
           • DavidJ 3.2.1.1.1.1

             13 July 2022 at 8:32 pm

             Fair comment.
4. Anker 4

   13 July 2022 at 11:37 am

   • So gender ideology has permeated our instiutions and with it comes the denial of biological sex (reality).

   And as you say Weka no challenging of the one in five figure of trans people trying to kill themselves.

   My understanding is when people are suicidal the approach is risk management (because suicidality almost always passes as all feelings do) and good mental health treatment, including treating their depression (last I knew 66% of people who complete suicide were known to. have depression), bi polar, addiction, schizophrenia and rarer conditions such as body dysmorphic disorder, which has very high rates of suicide as do eating disorders. Treatment doesn't involve getting others to change thier world view and language. But treatment may involve teaching vulnerable people to learn good self regulation (e.g when they get triggered.).

   Very interesting about body dysmorphic disorder commonly known as imagined ugliness disorder. The person presents with a fixed over valuted idea that a part of their body (or sometimes their whole body is ugly). They may have a small physical defect which is vastly magnified and thought of as grotesque. These people often seek out plastic surgery (think Micheal Jackson) and are rarely satisfied with the outcomes. No one goes along with the over valued idea of the person with BDD. Or encouragese or suggests plastic surgery (certainly a psychotherapist wouldn’t do this, but perhapse some desperate family members). Nor are any health professionals likely to facilitate plastic surgery.
   • weka 4.1

     13 July 2022 at 12:21 pm

     good points. I was also thinking about the problems of promoting the idea that society hates trans people, alongside how trans people suicidality is discussed. We have suicide reporting guidelines for MSM, but these are largely ignored on SM. I'd be very surprised if the culture on places like trans reddit and Tumblr aren't a factor.

     Building strong capacity for disagreement seems a necessary social skill as well as mental health one.
5. Anker 5

   13 July 2022 at 1:28 pm

   I don't think most people in society hate trans people at all. Many would say they have guts. I think back over the years re trans people when it was about one in thirty thousand people who were trans. so very rare. I think of the likes of Carmen, Georgina Beyer, and the Police Commissioner Bob Moodie, who started wearing Kaftans to work (so a cross dresser). I am sure these three NZders would have been on the receiving end of some harrassment, but basically they were allowed to get on and live the life they wanted to live. I think its fair to say Georgina Beyer is a highly respected NZder, because, basically I think most NZders believe in giving people a fair go.

   Also if you look at the murder rate of trans people in NZ its very, very low. A blunt instrument I know but with murder its pretty black and white sadly.

   I think the idea that everyone hates trans people is used to claim marginalized status and to justify giving the trans rights activists everything they demand, especially of course access to women's spaces. Also though "gender affirming" health care. I predict that there will be a tidal wide of ACC claims for the irreversible damage that puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery are causing and will continue to cause until this madness is stopped. I note that a woman in the US is sueing the drug company because she was prescribed Lupron for endo metriosis and has been left with early menopause and infertility. Lupron is the drug currently being given to children with gender dysphoria.
6. Belladonna 6

   13 July 2022 at 1:51 pm

   How cool is this – Powelliphanta – being found at a new site in the Manawatu.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/local-focus-mysterious-giant-snails-found-in-totara-reserve-regional-park/2A6MORL37BYTZHWUVGA3JIDNJ4/?c_id=1&objectid=12537435&ref=rss
7. Belladonna 7

   13 July 2022 at 2:00 pm

   So, putting a cautious toe in the water…. what do people think of the new anti-gang laws.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bid-to-crackdown-on-gangs-chris-hipkins-and-kiri-allan-announce-new-laws/RQOAFPZNCIJXBIFZBG5SWX5UKQ/?c_id=1&objectid=12537767&ref=rss

   A series of moves have been unveiled to try to combat gangs – including a new crime of firing a gun with intent to intimidate that comes with jail time.

   Other changes announced by Police Minister Chris Hipkins and Justice Minister Kiri Allan this morning include:

   • Expanding the range of offences where police can seize and impound cars, motorbikes and other vehicles

   • Police and other enforcement agencies able to seize cash over $10,000 when found in suspicious circumstances

   • Watches, jewellery, precious metals and stones, motor vehicles and boats added to list of high value goods prohibited for sale for cash over a specified value

   • Work underway to strengthen sector-wide approach to address youth crime and reduce offending

   • New targeted warrant and additional search powers to find and seize weapons from gang members during a gang conflict
   • Maurice 7.1

     13 July 2022 at 2:33 pm

     Perfect – Police can never have enough power.

     Will Social Democrats be designated as a "gang" if the far right ever take power?
     • Mac1 7.1.1

       13 July 2022 at 2:51 pm

       If the SDs involved drove by a person's house and fired shots from a fire arm, then let them face the law.

       If SDs come into large wealth that cannot be explained by legitimate earning means, and are involved in criminal enterprises, and are not declaring their 'earnings' for taxation purposes, then let them face the law.

       But remember, Maurice, they have to face the law- trial by judge and jury, open court, the press, the public, with recourse to higher court appeals etc.

       I am not impressed by your arguments that the far right will use such laws to repress the left.

       History tells us that such laws are not needed. The repression, lawful or unlawfully based, will take place. The laws will be created, if needed, or existing ones, even now, will be dusted off and applied by a compliant judiciary and a complaisant, ignorant or frightened public.

       Better to work hard to prevent authoritarian extremists from taking power………..
       • Maurice 7.1.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 5:44 pm

         Exactly – just as we are already seeing?
         • Mac1 7.1.1.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 6:03 pm

           You might have to justify your consideration that we are entering an authoritarian extremist state….. and saying that the law change to make a similar crime of those discharging a weapon for intimidatory purposes outside a home to be equivalent to discharging one within a home is the first or further step towards an extremist right wing state, well you'll need to work hard to convince me.
           • Maurice 7.1.1.1.1.1

             14 July 2022 at 11:28 am

             The financial bits are the problem …. the firearm stuff is ALREADY well covered by the brand spanking new Arms law and indeed has always be covered by the Arms Act for yonks.
             • Mac1 …

               14 July 2022 at 12:49 pm

               OK. So it's the financial bits. Now, how does that mean Social Democrats being called a gang under a far right government taking power, as you said in 7.1? And further, how do you justify saying this is already happening, as you allege in 7.1.1.1? Who, where, when, what laws?
               • Maurice …

                 14 July 2022 at 1:14 pm

                 Have you not been following the present Party Contributions saga?
               • Maurice …

                 14 July 2022 at 1:30 pm

                 Some of the concerns rather nicely covered by G. G. here:

                 https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/07/government-s-gang-package-national-act-want-more-action-greens-concerned-new-police-powers-attack-on-rights.html

                 "Protections in our Bill of Rights Act require the police to have real cause to suspect someone of offending before they can enter their home or take their property," Ghahraman said.

                 "Expanding police powers of search and seizure is an attack on these minimum standards. We know that Māori and Pasifika are many times more likely to be the subject of these searches – and that is just going to get worse because of today’s announcement."

                 and

                 The Government should also be addressing the underlying causes of crime, she said, "not more of the same simplistic solutions that we know do not work and risk harming communities".
   • Puckish Rogue 7.2

     13 July 2022 at 4:00 pm

     It's a start.

     Targeting the money is good but also look at what government benefits the crims are on as well

     The other big one is advertising ie patches, needs to be a push to ban gang patches
     • Chris 7.2.1

       13 July 2022 at 4:21 pm

       What are you saying? That government benefits shouldn't be given to criminals?
       • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

         Gangs should be made illegal

         Members of the gangs should not be entitled to any government assistance.
         • Populuxe1 7.2.1.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 5:07 pm

           Define "gang". This should be interesting.
           • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.1.1

             13 July 2022 at 5:31 pm

             No.

             I already know who I'd declare illegal.

             You want to be side tracked by irrelevance be my guest.

             Start with the biggest and oldest and then work you way down the ladder.
             • Populuxe1 …

               14 July 2022 at 1:15 pm

               It's not irrelevant. You have to be able to legally define a gang before you can ban them. I just want to see you try because you think it's so easy.
           • AB 7.2.1.1.1.2

             13 July 2022 at 5:34 pm

             Anyone who wears a tie to work, drives an Audi rather fast and drinks craft beer while talking loudly? Seems like a workable definition. Or maybe not.
             • Mac1 …

               13 July 2022 at 6:05 pm

               Oy, lay off the craft beer. Next you'll be coming for the home brewers!
         • Nic the NZer 7.2.1.1.2

           13 July 2022 at 6:34 pm

           You don't think the obligatory WINZ standdown period, after somebody leaves a gang, might make it very hard for people to leave gangs?
           • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.2.1

             13 July 2022 at 6:48 pm

             Better than a jail sentence
             • Nic the NZer …

               13 July 2022 at 7:12 pm

               Your quite the reformist aren't you.
           • Chris 7.2.1.1.2.2

             14 July 2022 at 10:23 am

             The maximum stand down is 2 weeks, unless it's a punitive one, for quitting your job without a good reason or being sacked for misconduct, then it's 13 weeks, otherwise it's just the 2 weeks or 1 week if you're extra hard up.
             • Nic the NZer …

               15 July 2022 at 11:58 am

               Good to know. So its just 2 weeks after you explain to WINZ that your no longer a gang member and your on their books. Presumably this removes the previous mark on your file when you honestly explained to WINZ that you are a gang member today and they retracted services.

               Or in the event that you quit your gang without a good reason or were sacked from the gang due to miss-conduct in which case its 13 weeks.
               • Chris …

                 15 July 2022 at 2:43 pm

                 Are you being flippant, or do you believe what you're saying?
                 • Nic the NZer …

                   15 July 2022 at 3:22 pm

                   I'm being exactly as serious as Rogue One is.
                   • Chris …

                     15 July 2022 at 4:25 pm

                     PR believes what they're saying 100 percent…
         • KJT 7.2.1.1.3

           14 July 2022 at 8:16 am

           Agree. Lets start with the criminal gangs that have destroyed, or are trying to harm the lives of the most people in NZ.

           1. National party.
           2. Federated Farmers.
           3. David Seymours State supported gang.
           4. House horders, sorry, Landlords association.

           When have police not! abused extra powers they have been given?
8. Patricia Bremner 8

   13 July 2022 at 4:40 pm

   I see Luxon has not learned from Key.

   Key is known for saying "Explaining is losing"

   Luxon has had to explain "Soft Businesses " and "Over Covid, the world has moved on"

   Suzy tested him… and later after consultations?

   He explained again in a Stand up.
   • Chris 8.1

     13 July 2022 at 5:12 pm

     Luxon needs to be clear when he's doing stand-up and when he's not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the guy isn't funny, because he is. It's just that it's way too difficult to know if what he's talking about is national party policy or just simply part of his comedy routine.
9. Joe90 9

   13 July 2022 at 4:55 pm

   Is it good when a complaint against you cites numerous examples of your own injudicious internet blathering?

   https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22084453-twittermuskcomplaint
   • Ad 9.1

     13 July 2022 at 7:27 pm

     Surely unlikely the deal will be enforced.

     Great test for US Supreme Court.
     • joe90 9.1.1

       13 July 2022 at 8:09 pm

       68. Yet Musk made his offer without seeking any representation from Twitter regarding its estimates of spam or false accounts. He even sweetened his offer to the Twitter board by expressly withdrawing his prior diligence condition.

       Despite the big-noting, he signed a contract and then waived diligence. He’s on the hook.
       • Ad 9.1.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 9:55 pm

         Billionaire popcorn time.

         Looks like he was actively sabotaging Twitter to take them down.

         If Twitter lose will they sue for damages?

         Sure looks like they were taking notes throughout.

         I have no sympathy for Musk.
         • joe90 9.1.1.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 10:50 pm

           If Twitter lose will they sue for damages?

           Or worse. And whether or not his online fuckery was only ever about influencing stock prices in his favour.

           In contract law, that is the normal remedy for breach of contract. It is called “expectation damages.” If Musk signed a deal to buy a thing for $54.20, and then he refused to pay and had no good reason for backing out of the deal, and the seller had to turn around and sell the thing to someone else for $25 instead, then the seller could go to court and demand that Musk pay the $29.20 difference.

           https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-07-11/the-price-of-not-buying-twitter

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