Open mike 13/08/2019

139 comments on “Open mike 13/08/2019 ”

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1. OnceWasTim 1

   13 August 2019 at 8:20 am

   Another fine mess 'officials' have gotten us into Ollie:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018708427/taxpayers-hit-from-govt-partnership-with-us-videogame-maker
   • roy cartland 1.1

     13 August 2019 at 8:40 am

     Was just going to post this – what an absolute dystopian nightmare.

     "The agency's trials using Machine Zone's data-processing platform, Satori, were labelled a "revolution" by the transport minister at the time, Simon Bridges."

     Instead of Ministers, NZ transport should be run by an app.

     And this guy wants to be PM; God help us.
     • OnceWasTim 1.1.1

       13 August 2019 at 10:11 am

       Pretty much all goes to a wider issue @ Roy – that of what has become within the senior ranks of our public service – and even some of the over-ambitious, career-trumps-all in the middle ranks.

       Strangely enough, and probably no coincidence, that the worst of the agencies are the ones that thought it OK to use the services of T&C. And whilst I much much prefer the coalition government we've got over the previous junta, they probably should have let Chippie get on with widespread reform from day 1 (that is of course if they truly wanted to be transformational and kind).
       • greywarshark 1.1.1.1

         13 August 2019 at 11:01 am

         I think that people should know more about the interview so I have put the short RNZ summary below. This approach to running our country where the agencies that government has devolved power to, go further and devolve more power to techno-government and bloody alghorithms (that's not a technical term!), is extremely worrying. I

         If we don't attempt to hold and control government in our own likeness, (those of us who aren't blinkered by a love of the technical aspect of things and smart machines), we will be ruled not by human dictators but with machines smarter at manipulating us than cats! And they will probably have a humour program so they can make us laugh while we flog ourselves, or somebody else.

         A government partnership with an American videogame maker has burnt the New Zealand taxpayer.

         The Transport Agency has sunk public money into a partnership with a Silicon Valley company called Machine Zone that talked up its vision of software to run everything from buses to the health system and even the police. Phil Pennington reports.

         Just to make you laugh, or cringe: My marvellous toy

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLYefZkOMB0
         • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 3:22 pm

           Many a non-technically-minded 'official' or CEO has been led up the garden path by an IT salesman (often not all that brilliant themselves) plying them with promises and a technological nirvana.

           Doesn't matter whether is a charismatic CEO heading banking IT like a 'Boss Hogg' wined and dined at Plimmer House or those that followed after his demise, OR other Masters of the Universe both in the gummint and private sector.

           I'll make a bet. Whatever it was that lprent has been doing in Singapore will be a success versus the very many cockup projects in the public service we've seen since the demise of GCS where the technicians have become chattels in the pursuit of some Master of the Universe's career advancement.

           Technology just for the sake of technology with the promises of lotsa treats and trinkets never usually works and more often than not, costs a bundle and ends up with a 'solution' that assumes a one size fits all.

           Btw @ lprent …… care to tackle a gun register for NuZull? Apparently it'd be such a hard ask there'll be about $5million in it for ya tested and delivered. (And I mean a gun register, as opposed to a Gun Owner register)
2. Dennis Frank 2

   13 August 2019 at 8:43 am

   I watched Vernon Tava talking to Duncan Garner this morning, and was impressed by his confidence and assuredness. He was extremely forthcoming and natural on all topics. Garner was framing Sustainable NZ as a potential coalition partner for National, of course. Writers here have consistently read Vernon wrong in the past, but I can't really blame them since he did join National and compete for selection as a candidate.

   The news angle is that almost 500 members have joined, and Vernon expressed confidence that his appearance on the AM show would get sufficient extra on board by the end of today to reach the threshold for registration of the party with the Electoral Commission.

   As lawyers go, Vernon has demonstrated that he transcends the limits imposed by his training (orthodoxy, tunnel-vision). Few kiwis have an operational intellect, and Vernon has been demonstrating that he's an exception to that rule on his website for years. Check this out, for instance: https://vernontava.com/2014/10/03/the-difference-between-social-responsibility-and-social-justice/

   You won't get any explanation of the difference from anyone in the GP leadership group. Their failure on this front has been consistent since the start of MMP. Equally, they are also in their third decade of failure in respect of not advocating the steady-state economy – even though it was adopted as part of GP economic policy in the '90s.

   It would be good to see the Green movement using the new option to marginalise the pretenders on the political left & right, but I doubt enough kiwis are capable of being resolute enough to do the right thing. Muddle through the middle will continue until things get so bad that desperation becomes contagious…
   • Dukeofurl 2.1

     13 August 2019 at 8:59 am

     So ends the Vernon Tava party political broadcast. Was it a paid for spot as well with Garner? Its not like hes news anymore or any other reason to have him.
     • ianmac 2.1.1

       13 August 2019 at 9:37 am

       I thought Denis's post was satirical and kept looking for the punchline. Silly me Duke.
       • Dukeofurl 2.1.1.1

         13 August 2019 at 10:00 am

         While he has legal training, this is what he really does

         "He has worked in sales management as the state-wide business development manager (Victoria, Australia) for a major international food manufacturer and general management for a boutique coffee company in Melbourne, Australia, overseeing the operation of its retail, manufacturing and wholesale distribution channels before returning to New Zealand."

         A corporate sales dude and now hes a broker flogging off companies for commission.

         https://www.divest.co.nz/property/businesses-available-3183

         The Blue Green thing is just another opportunity. And like all egg heads like that financier on a motorbike who started a party, no real grasp of what the americans call 'retail politics' or what engages real world voters.
       • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.2

         13 August 2019 at 10:02 am

         So neither you nor the Duke got the point? I didn't expect him to get traction. It now looks like the design is actually pulling in sufficient members. So the old `neither left nor right, but beyond' framing still appeals to kiwis reluctant to be suckered by the even older left/right bullshit.

         That said, reserve judgment till the thing shows up in the polls. TOP seems to have decided to commit suicide, so there's 2% available for the taking immediately. I haven't joined Vernon due to ongoing loyalty to the GP. Plenty of water to flow under the bridge yet though…
         • Blazer 2.1.1.2.1

           13 August 2019 at 10:07 am

           Tell Tava to get Gilbert Myles on board…great..ticket.
         • Dukeofurl 2.1.1.2.2

           13 August 2019 at 10:21 am

           " It now looks like the design is actually pulling in sufficient members. "

           pleeese. Signing up existing national party members and hangers on.

           Astro turfing.

           "TOP seems to have decided to commit suicide, so there's 2% available for the taking immediately. "

           Taking ? You will be lucky to get 1% as you dont have the $millions TOP had.
           • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.2.2.1

             13 August 2019 at 10:51 am

             You will be lucky to get 1% as you dont have the $millions TOP had.

             What the hell have I got to do with it?? We're talking about Vernon Tava, who I've already told you I haven't joined.

             So you are assuming wealthy bluegreens will refuse to fund him due to pique that he is genuinely centrist? You could be right, we'll see. If so, just another sign of rightist cluelessness…
             • Dukeofurl …

               13 August 2019 at 12:15 pm

               The guy talks like a younger more centrist Chris Trotter …yeah right that bring the voters in.

               The real reason for the 'bee gees' party , is to syphon off numbers from the greens so they fail the 5% barrier.

               Impossible to get over 5% with old people like you and 'old acting' Tava . Good luck with well off Gold card Greens
               • Dennis Frank …

                 13 August 2019 at 12:30 pm

                 Plenty of voters want a centrist option that isn't as antique as Winston. Remember there's a third of the electorate that now reject the option of self-identifying as left or right. He just has to motivate them to vote on the basis of their identity politics.
                 • Dukeofurl …

                   13 August 2019 at 1:10 pm

                   Not what the polls say. Anyway the main parties aim for a broad support which is why they poll around 40% plus.

                   Greens and NZ First mop up another 10-12%.

                   The 'bee gees party' will drowned soon after birth when national finds its bleeding ITS support.

                   Remember the Maori party already existed in parliament when the nats got their votes in the House , and conviniently the Nats withdrew from standing candidates in the Maori seats
     • cleangreen 2.1.2

       13 August 2019 at 4:30 pm

       
   • weka 2.2

     13 August 2019 at 11:26 am

     I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that the Greens should step up on a steady state economy? Of course, but they need more votes to do that. Past decades aren’t so much a failure of the Greens and of NZ.

     Tava won't be doing supporting a steady state economy.

     I'd be interested in a synopsis of the difference between social justice and social responsibility.

     My problem with Tava is that around the time he was trying to get more power in the GP, he was dishonest about just how right wing he is. He can think for sure but I don't trust him as a politician.
     • Dennis Frank 2.2.1

       13 August 2019 at 12:40 pm

       I similarly was unimpressed with the way he courted rightists. He ought to have gone in tough: demanding they conduct a culture change in National. Identified the status quo as a combination of toxic, lame, and braindead. A long overdue critique!

       My personal problem with Vernon is his style of centrism. Too mainstream. He would respond that it makes him more electable, which I agree with.

       If he does not advocate the steady-state economy in politics – to be consistent with his support of the notion in his website essays – I would view him as just as hypocritical as the GP parliamentarians.

       As regards your initial question: of course! It was obvious as a necessity in 1972, as soon as the Club of Rome published Limits to Growth!! Still the only viable solution to the global problem.
       • weka 2.2.1.1

         13 August 2019 at 1:03 pm

         hard to see him having a steady state platform if he wants to form govt with the right. This is why the GP rule out National, the policy gulf is massive. Good on him if he speaks up on this though, that would help (so long as he's does it well, which is not a given).

         Fortunately the GP still have steady state embedded in their charter, so any time lefties choose to start voting en masse for the only party that is treating climate change seriously, I remain confident the GP will step up on that.
   • Gabby 2.3

     13 August 2019 at 12:42 pm

     Very nice of Druncan to get Verny's face into the face of the voters wasn't it franko.
3. Glenn 3

   13 August 2019 at 9:14 am

   Would you buy a car from this man?

   "The UK will be 'first in line' for a trade deal with the US, Donald Trump's security adviser told British Officials today – as he urges them to 'get Brexit done' during a visit to London. …

   speaking following a meeting with Prime Minister Boris Johnson he said the US could pursue a 'sector-by-sector' deal with Britain and focus on areas like manufacturing and car-making where the two countries may agree, and work out more complicated areas later.

   He said US trade negotiators think this is acceptable under World Trade Organisation rules. Mr Bolton also said issues like security in Iran, and fears over Huawei's involvement in the UK's 5G network could wait until after Brexit to be resolved."

   https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7348587/U-S-adviser-Bolton-courts-Brexit-Britain-trade-deal-talk.html
   • Dukeofurl 3.1

     13 August 2019 at 9:47 am

     Thats just a cover story for meeting with Johnson. Now that Trump has removed the dissenting voices in his intell services , the talks in Britain are ALL about the moves in a war with Iran.

     National Security Advisor talking about specific trade moves ?- a bad cover story at that.
4. Anne 4

   13 August 2019 at 9:55 am

   Just as many here including me thought:

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12258006

   The JAG letter is nothing but a political storm in a tea-cup. &nbsp All she appears to have done is use paper with the wrong letterhead. LOCK HER UP I tells yer.
   • Dukeofurl 4.1

     13 August 2019 at 10:08 am

     Wellington has one of the closest airports to the City centre , for a capital city.

     And yet they want to get there even faster, even thats a false belief, capacity constraints either side will see to that.

     Is there even room for car parking at the airport – unlike Auckland where there seems to be acres of it.

     Wellington should look to Rotoruas new airport link back in 2011, Bridges cancelled it after the election as it wouldnt fix any problem.
   • David 4.2

     13 August 2019 at 10:57 am

     Would be a storm in a tie cup if JAG hadn’t first denied the existence of the letter, then tried to fob it off as being on the wrong letter head then tried to explain away why it was signed off as Associate Transport Minister while still claiming it was in her capacity as a Green MP. Yeah right. Open, honest and transparent government. Sure.
     • Dukeofurl 4.2.1

       13 August 2019 at 12:06 pm

       Associate Ministers all have specific delegations of their duties Her's centres on Road safety and the minor agencies in the transport archipelago. Road network stuff isnt in her job description.

       All governments do it this way . She is also an associate health minister, with specific delegations, new hospitals are not amoung them
       • David 4.2.1.1

         13 August 2019 at 12:45 pm

         Then there are the claims JAG leaned in Wellington Council to pull development of a second Victoria tunnel. She needs to come clean on this. What’s there to hide? Until she is honest, open and transparent with the public, who would know.
         • Incognito 4.2.1.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 12:55 pm

           What or where is the evidence to substantiate those claims?
           • David 4.2.1.1.1.1

             13 August 2019 at 2:36 pm

             So far the statements of those who were at the Council meeting.

             And of course maybe the letter that didn’t exist, but now does that is currently with the Ombudsman awaiting a decision on openness and transparency. Oh the irony.
             • Incognito …

               13 August 2019 at 6:12 pm

               Are any of these statements in writing? I’m asking because there is an awful lot of noise but how much is wild speculation about the actual nature and contents of the letter, which apparently does exist? Have the Council members seen the letter? If yes, why don’t they ‘leak’ it to the media or give it to National to do so?
               • New view …

                 13 August 2019 at 8:34 pm

                 You’re right. So is that helpful. No. She should clean up speculation. collectively the coalition is sitting on the letter. You have to ask why. If the letter does contain a stop work for any proposed additional tunnel I would have thought the public should know what side of the discussion JAG is. People like me assume she would prefer the increasing numbers trying to get to the airport take the scenic trip around the bays and enjoy the scenery. I live in CHB but was born in Wellington.
                 • Incognito …

                   13 August 2019 at 9:04 pm

                   Yes, I completely agree with you that the claimants need to provide enough evidence to force JAG to release the letter to the public. So far, it has been unsubstantiated allegations about the contents and speculation. I assume nothing. The Ombudsman will judge whether the level of public interest outweighs any objections by the people directly involved, i.e. the sender and the recipient.
               • Sacha …

                 14 August 2019 at 8:44 am

                 I'd say that's exactly what the Nats are doing – trying to provoke a defensive statement that will look bad when the letter is then miraculously made available to media. The governing parties will be resisting setting any precedent.
         • Dukeofurl 4.2.1.1.2

           13 August 2019 at 1:00 pm

           Wrong .

           The road is part of SH 1 up till the airport gates, so not a council funded highway.
           • DAVID 4.2.1.1.2.1

             13 August 2019 at 2:40 pm

             Wrong that the letter doesn’t exist? But JAG has admitted it does?

             Wrong that the Governments not being open and transparent as promised? Pull the other one.
             • Stuart Munro. …

               13 August 2019 at 2:59 pm

               Rubbish.

               Internal communications between parties do not form part of required openness – in fact a degree of secrecy is desirable so that other parties cannot choose to attack possibilities rather than actual policy, which is what you are trying to do here.

               I don't recall seeing a lot of Gnat/Maori party internal correspondence, nor would I expect to. The optimism of the Gnats in chasing this red herring would be encouraging if it did not demonstrate they have nfi what they’re doing beyond opposing the coalition.
               • David …

                 13 August 2019 at 3:14 pm

                 So the OIA is there to be ignored if it’s inconvenient to the openness and transparency of parliament then?
                 • Dukeofurl …

                   13 August 2019 at 4:26 pm

                   The Ombudsman has previously ruled these sort of intra party letters/discussions are exempt from the act.
                   • David …

                     13 August 2019 at 5:05 pm

                     is this fact or just your opinion? The whole crux of the current involvement of the Ombudsman is whether in this fact the letter is discoverable under the OIA. Until we have a verdict in this point we wait and see.

                     BTW, this is not intra party correspondence. That would be Green Party member to Green Party member.
                 • Stuart Munro. …

                   13 August 2019 at 4:40 pm

                   I don't know what your complaint is, it was your lot that introduced mass redacting in a futile attempt to conceal some of their myriad failings.

                   The OIA doesn't cover intra party documents – you may recall the unsuccessful attempts to obtain the coalition agreement? It wasn't covered by the act, nor is this.
             • Sacha …

               13 August 2019 at 3:43 pm

               open and transparent as promised

               Where do we read that promise?
               • David …

                 13 August 2019 at 3:47 pm

                 Look back to the open mike sessions last week. Multiple quotes and links on this point were provided then.
                 • Sacha …

                   13 August 2019 at 10:15 pm

                   I asked several times. Never seen anything other than the one quote by the hugely influential Clare Curran.
             • greywarshark …

               13 August 2019 at 8:57 pm

               David Looking for a peg to hang a snide remark on? DukeofUrl explained what he considered wrong which was whether a road was was national or local.
     • Anne 4.2.2

       13 August 2019 at 12:50 pm

       Thanks for highlighting my point:

       a storm in a tea cup over a piffling note to a colleagure which every parliamentary does and is entitled to do – all in the name of petty political point scoring.

       I don't recall her pretending the note didn't exist. Why do right wing nut jobs lie all the time?
       • DAVID 4.2.2.1

         13 August 2019 at 3:19 pm

         If by ‘nut’ you are referring to me, I’m a (now ex) Green Party voter. Maybe you are right, maybe I was as nut to expect openness and transparency.
         • arkie 4.2.2.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 4:49 pm

           LOL

           Shades of the Chair here.
         • In Vino 4.2.2.1.2

           13 August 2019 at 5:32 pm

           Oh Diddums.. Serious Green Voter deeply hurt? Pull the other one.
           • David 4.2.2.1.2.1

             13 August 2019 at 5:40 pm

             Is there a difference between a “Serious” Green Party voter and just a plain old boring one like me? How do I get into the “serious” category… I’d love to know.
             • arkie …

               13 August 2019 at 5:57 pm

               Was this JAG letter issue that caused you to renounce the Greens?
       • Jimmy 4.2.2.2

         13 August 2019 at 3:37 pm

         Therefore, since it is so trivial, why doesn't she just release it? And why deny its existence originally?
         • Stuart Munro. 4.2.2.2.1

           13 August 2019 at 4:47 pm

           Bullying behavior often begins as demands for things to which the asker is not entitled. Because intra party documents are none of the Opposition's business, it would be encouraging bad behavior to concede to the demand.
         • In Vino 4.2.2.2.2

           13 August 2019 at 5:34 pm

           Jimmy – since you admit it is so trivial, why are you bothering?
   • greywarshark 4.3

     13 August 2019 at 11:28 am

     That teacup is a mug. JAGenter should have held out her little finger in the approved manner, and done everything right. Protocol is everything.

     Goss about protocol: Did you know that Harry and Meghan are not being asked to dinner parties because they aren’t following protocol in wanting to sit together at the table, the forte of social hostesses choice. And they keep holding hands which isn’t appropriate according to protocol which can be rather precious.
     (Saw it on the grapevine.)
5. marty mars 5

   13 August 2019 at 10:12 am

   Disgusting racist attitudes

   Mayor of Wellington City Justin Lester has called out a "racist" local after he received an email spouting abuse against immigrants and Muslims.

   Yesterday Lester took to Twitter raising his disappointment over the email which was sent on Sunday.

   In the angry email titled "Racial abuse cuts both ways", the person takes aim at a family speaking Hindi, points the finger at the mayor for not listening to locals over immigration fears and blames them as the reason why 51 Muslims died in the Christchurch terror attack.

   "I received the below from a local resident I know well, which makes it even more disappointing," Lester wrote on Twitter.

   "Strangely the individual themselves is an immigrant. They came from an Anglo-Saxon country to live here in NZ, which is great.

   "Their rant isn't about immigration. This is racism."

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/wellington-mayor-calls-out-local-after-racist-email

   Good work that mayor
   • Gabby 5.1

     13 August 2019 at 12:52 pm

     The person's upset that the (alleged) murderer is an immigrant? No?
     • marty mars 5.1.1

       13 August 2019 at 1:09 pm

       no
6. marty mars 6

   13 August 2019 at 10:49 am

   a couple of guffaws in this one for me

   https://youtu.be/U5mdkdcCM2o

   https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/aug/12/john-oliver-trump-pathological-lack-of-empathy
7. CC 7

   13 August 2019 at 11:11 am

   It looks like Lester is typically attention grabbing again – must be election year. The real heroes were the railway worker who removed a racist ranter from a train and the passengers who reinforced the action with their support, even though their trip was delayed while the miscreant was removed. What will predictably happen as a result of Lester's publicity seeking is that the gates will now open for people to express 'support and understanding' of the correspondents racist views.
8. greywarshark 8

   13 August 2019 at 11:24 am

   Here is Jonathan Pie on Brexit – he is having the rant for you, if you are inclined to blow up about it. Saves your blood pressure. Then Michael Gove comes on apparently distressed that the EU is being definite about things, just like the UK under Boorish is definite; 'Right men (and women) we are going forward with the Charge of the Light-in-the-Head Brigade'.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DMLt2E6o6A
   • Glenn 8.1

     13 August 2019 at 1:04 pm

     My barber who was from Norwich told me the other day that theres no way he's going back for a family christmas. He said the situation is that volatile that there will be a good chance of a family punch up etc. He reckons theres a good chance violence will happen come halloween.
     • Dukeofurl 8.1.1

       13 August 2019 at 4:29 pm

       Oh pleeeese.

       They are Brits , any shortages and they will queue like they always do.

       This is a bigger beatup than Y2K was , where nothing happened.
9. Muttonbird 9

   13 August 2019 at 11:25 am

   Another two things the John Key government fucked up.

   Stats: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396557/head-of-stats-nz-liz-macpherson-resigns-over-botched-census

   And WOFs: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/call-for-wof-checks-to-be-every-six-months.html

   Morons.
   • Gosman 9.1

     13 August 2019 at 11:28 am

     James Shaw was in charge of the Census at the time it was actually carried out. He had plenty of time to determine if it was going to be a mess and plenty of time to make a case that it should be delayed until the issues impacting it could be fixed. The fact he didn't do this is an indictment on him not the previous administration (who still shoulder some of the blame).
     • alwyn 9.1.1

       13 August 2019 at 12:01 pm

       And why hasn't taken his share of the blame for his Department's stuff up and resigned also? He apparently showed no interest at all in the Census, probably because he was having far to much fun touring the World at the tax-payer's expense.

       Take the responsibility James. It's time to go. If he doesn't quit the PM should sack him.
     • Dukeofurl 9.1.2

       13 August 2019 at 12:01 pm

       Absurd. The Govt Statistician is like the Police Commissioner , totally excluded from ministerial direction over the operational side of the job. Its written into the Act.

       The funding and plans were made 18 months -2 years before the census was carried out. Who provided the funding in a time of budget freezes for a lot of government departments ?
       • Gosman 9.1.2.1

         13 August 2019 at 12:04 pm

         Umm… sorry but if there was a slow motion train wreck about to occur I would expect the Minister responsible to call it out and take steps to avert it (or at least limit the damage). Shaw did nothing until AFTER the Census as far as I am aware.
         • Dukeofurl 9.1.2.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 12:48 pm

           The detailed report shows census didnt know what the problems were but they were cutting back on one thing….

           The aggressive reduction in the field workforce also meant Statistics NZ had a reduced capacity to respond when the response rate began to fall below acceptable tolerance levels.

           https://www.stats.govt.nz/reports/report-of-the-independent-review-of-new-zealands-2018-census

           You seem to keep ignoring the fact of Shaw couldnt even interfere even if he knew ( he didnt). The way Stats works would be the Minsiter would be told about 'progress' ahead of census but there would be no possibility for 'decisions for minister' on the items mentioned.

           How would he even have known this review recommendation

           Ensure sufficient paper forms (including bilingual forms) are produced and deployed in the field to fully enable list-leave operations, non-response follow-up, and where appropriate full enumeration. Provide sufficient buffer for a planned level of contingency.

           Looking further into the report .
           cost saving was number 2 objective in the early planning...page 30

           “For the first time, Statistics NZ contracted out the recruitment and remuneration of field
           staff. ….. as the tools and systems to support this critical activity were decommissioned after the 2013 Census” pg 42

           contractors …what could go wrong
           • Incognito 9.1.2.1.1.1

             13 August 2019 at 6:42 pm

             Thanks for that report; the budget as such did not appear to be highlighted as a causative or contributing factor.

             I found this (much shorter) piece quite interesting, especially the timings and timelines: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/12/17/69331/concerns-raised-over-census-it-system#
           • alwyn 9.1.2.1.1.2

             14 August 2019 at 7:01 pm

             "How would he even have known this review recommendation".

             At the time just after the Census date I remember seeing a report that Shaw hadn't even had meetings with the people running the Census to keep up with what was going on.

             Given that it is difficult to see how he could have known anything about the whole affair. Is that considered acceptable behavior by a Minister? Can they use the excuse that "I kept my eyes closed and my ears covered so I can't possibly be at fault for anything". It might be true of the Honorable Mr Shaw but it certainly doesn't seem acceptable to me. Ministers aren't like Sergeant Schultz when they claim "I know nothing".

             He has of course then spent the last 18 months telling us that everything is fine and that all the problems will vanish. He still doesn't seem to feel that he is in any way responsible both for the shambles it turned out to be and for the fact that he has never admitted that things weren't going to turn out happily ever after.

             Sorry, but despite all the attempts to pretend that he couldn't do anything and that he wasn't capable of asking questions he has totally failed at the job and he really has to go. John Key or Bill English, or even Helen Clark would certainly have replaced anyone who stuffed up so spectacularly. Of course those PMs generally had New Zealand's interests at heart and thought we should have competence as a requirement of being a Minister of the Crown.

             Such is clearly not the case in the people chosen by Winston and Ms Ardern who are pretending to be a Government worth of the name.
       • alwyn 9.1.2.2

         13 August 2019 at 12:06 pm

         The then (National led) Government provided $121 million for the 2018 Census.

         The 2013 version cost about $72 million. You can hardly argue that the National-led Government skimped on the budget can you? Just what are you complaining about?
         Would it be that you think Muttonbird is a fool for claiming that somehow the problem was caused by the National Government?
         • Gabby 9.1.2.2.1

           13 August 2019 at 12:57 pm

           Typical eh wally, nuttyanal spends more achieves less, apart from awesome management salaries and consultant fees.
         • Ngungukai 9.1.2.2.2

           14 August 2019 at 12:03 am

           … and another $26 Million on the f%&king stupid flag referendum ?
           • alwyn 9.1.2.2.2.1

             14 August 2019 at 12:06 pm

             Tell me again.

             Why was the replacement of the flag Labour Party Policy in the 2014 election?

             I should think any Labour Party acolyte would have been very grateful for National looking to implement the Labour Party's policy. Then I remember that it was Angry Andy who was leading them at the time.
             • Stuart Munro. …

               14 August 2019 at 12:12 pm

               National really didn't get the concepts of public consultation and surfacing, so they ended up with the bacon wrapper. Had they run it, Labour might not have done better, but they'd've tried to.
     • Sanctuary 9.1.3

       13 August 2019 at 12:15 pm

       FFS don't insult my intelligence on this issue you retard.
       • James 9.1.3.1

         13 August 2019 at 12:33 pm

         Calling people “retard” – classy.
         • Robert Guyton 9.1.3.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 12:54 pm

           The ill-conceived census process was 47-26 behaviour from National.
           • Gosman 9.1.3.1.1.1

             13 August 2019 at 12:57 pm

             Eh???

             Also why didn't James Shaw stop the census if it was going to be such a mess? Are you implying he didn't have a handle on the portfolio when the decision was taken to proceed?
             • Poission …

               13 August 2019 at 1:02 pm

               He was busy directing policy for other metrics.

               https://wellbeingindicators.stats.govt.nz/en/spiritual-health/
             • Robert Guyton …

               13 August 2019 at 3:57 pm

               "Are you implying"

               There's that ol' give-away!

               Someone's trying to speak through your mouth!
         • Incognito 9.1.3.1.2

           13 August 2019 at 1:19 pm

           Come on, James, show us you are consistent; Alwyn called somebody “a fool” (of course, he’s going to protest and deny it because I know Alwyn all too well).
           • alwyn 9.1.3.1.2.1

             13 August 2019 at 1:52 pm

             I am curious.

             I probably have called someone a fool on this blog. Why would I deny it? I am not an MP in the ranks of our current Government you know. Clearly you don't know me nearly as well as you claim.

             However do you really think that calling someone a "fool" is in the same category as calling someone a "retard"? I would certainly consider them to be on completely different levels and I would never use the term "retard" about anyone. You seem to have a different opinion on the matter and to regard them as equivalent descriptions.
             • Incognito …

               13 August 2019 at 6:23 pm

               You are most obliging, as always, Alwyn.

               BTW, your assumption is wrong too.
               • alwyn …

                 13 August 2019 at 6:46 pm

                 I suppose I should ignore this but I remain curious. Just what is the assumption you are talking about?
                 • Incognito …

                   13 August 2019 at 6:52 pm

                   You made an assumption, which I corrected because I am the only one who could.
                   • alwyn …

                     14 August 2019 at 12:08 pm

                     And precisely what was this "assumption" you are complaining about. Come on old chap. If you really think there was one what was it?
                   • Incognito []

                     14 August 2019 at 4:16 pm

                     Another assumptive comment! Can you ask a simple question without assuming anything? I assume not. As others have pointed out today, you have a fixed mind on certain topics and you won’t budge no matter what facts are presented to you. Either you can’t handle the truth or you act in bad faith (or both).
                   • Psycho Milt …

                     14 August 2019 at 12:39 pm

                     “Come on old chap.”

                     Oops, there's another one…
           • James 9.1.3.1.2.2

             13 August 2019 at 2:18 pm

             personally I find calling someone a retard significantly worse than calling them a fool.

             But if it’s accepted as an insult on here and and ok term to use so be it. I doubt I will use it regardless.
             • marty mars …

               13 August 2019 at 2:34 pm

               it is a term that should not be used imo – sad and painful to see such poor choices being made and defended

               As for your tears james – unconvincing imo – you are just looking for something to attack the coalition with – you'd use anything too which is a real sign of a rwnj.
               • Ngungukai …

                 14 August 2019 at 12:06 am

                 James is definitely a RWNJ always has been always will be, I remember him from way back, he is a waste of space IMHO.
             • weka …

               13 August 2019 at 2:37 pm

               Fool is a silly person. Retard is a historic term for people with intellectual disabilities, and has been used against them and now in general as a slur. It's not fair on them to use the word to people we disagree with.
               • In Vino …

                 13 August 2019 at 5:36 pm

                 Oh, stop all the put-downs, you eggs
                 • marty mars …

                   13 August 2019 at 7:01 pm

                   yes would be good if people could use their brains and pick words that aren't loaded, (not like there aren't a few to choose from) for the vulnerable in our society
                   • weka …

                     13 August 2019 at 7:09 pm

                     Eggs is good.
                   • In Vino …

                     13 August 2019 at 7:14 pm

                     Hat-tip to Taika – movie ‘Boy’
                   • marty mars …

                     13 August 2019 at 7:16 pm

                     you egg lol
             • Incognito …

               13 August 2019 at 6:18 pm

               I see, you use your judgement for when to complain. You do have a penchant for repeating anything that offends you, which shows quite poor judgment IMHO.

               BTW, your assumption is wrong.
     • Gabby 9.1.4

       13 August 2019 at 12:54 pm

       But gozzer, his officials assured him ennatheday it would be fine, no drama, guessing gus.
       • Gosman 9.1.4.1

         13 August 2019 at 12:55 pm

         Then he should be calling for mass resignations from his management team. Has he called for these?
         • marty mars 9.1.4.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 1:12 pm

           yes he asked them to bend the knee and they said they had dragons – you sullied idiot
   • Gosman 9.2

     13 August 2019 at 11:30 am

     On the second point – a mechanic calling for his profession to be given lots more work to do is hardly surprising. Whens the evidence that more accidents are occurring or the ones that do occur are more damaging as a result of the change made?
     • Dukeofurl 9.2.1

       13 August 2019 at 12:10 pm

       The evidence is the numbers of fails when the warrants are done, up considerably.

       When did evidence matter to you anyway. One of the things they want is the cutoff year when 1 yr warrants change to 6 months to be a rolling one instead of a fixed year.
       • Gosman 9.2.1.1

         13 August 2019 at 12:23 pm

         I want to see the actual negative impact. Is the number of accidents as a result of mechanical failures up?
         • Dukeofurl 9.2.1.1.1

           13 August 2019 at 12:40 pm

           Most accidents arent studied like that. The police might look into 1% , thats only where death or very serious injury occur.

           Galloping Gosman again…. for f$#% sake , under national checking of bad WOF garages had dissapeared , just as it did for heavy vehicle trailer certifiers.

           The real cause of those issues is Bill Englishs demand for an every year 2% efficiency savings from department budgets. Compliance is an easy cut to meet those numbers
           • Gosman 9.2.1.1.1.1

             13 August 2019 at 12:42 pm

             Most accidents ARE studied like that. That is why we know if speed or alcohol or driver error was the main factor in an accident. If mechanical failure is the main cause we should be seeing an increase.
             • Dukeofurl …

               13 August 2019 at 4:21 pm

               Bald tyres or very low tread, bad brakes is a big factor in failed WOF.

               The 'study' for most accidents is limited to asking the driver or witnesses to see if any charges can be laid. Rest is generic data, location, time of day , wet or dry, speed limits any excessive speed etc.

               Only other mechanical factors are mentioned if obvious , like 'wheel fell off'

               Only for serious accidents do they take the car back to be inspected in deatail.

               https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/traffic-crash-reports/docs/traffic-crash-reports.pdf

               Show us where in the sample report where the vehicle mechanical or related factors are 'analysed ?

               The sample only allows mention of obvious things like – Trailer overloaded or WOF overdue.
               • Gosman …

                 13 August 2019 at 4:30 pm

                 Ummm… did you bother reading that before you posted it here?

                 (My emphasis below)

                 "They record the details of EXACTLY where, when, how and why the crash happened."

                 "Human error, deliberate or accidental, is almost always just one factor in a serious crash. While it may be the cause, the severity of the crash is always related to the speed, and is often a result of other issues on the road or roadside, OR WITH THE VEHICLES involved."

                 There is even a section in the crash report on vehicle factors.

                 If there was more crashes being caused by vehicle issues they will show up on the statistics. Do you have evidence they are?
                 • Muttonbird …

                   13 August 2019 at 4:39 pm

                   You are arguing that vehicle safety standards have no bearing on accidents.

                   Then why have vehicle safety standards at all?
                   • Ngungukai …

                     14 August 2019 at 12:08 am

                     G needs his head examined a lot of fuzzy logic happening up there IMHO ?
10. joe90 10

    13 August 2019 at 12:06 pm

    The cruelty never stops.

    The Trump administration has reauthorized government officials to use controversial poison devices – dubbed “cyanide bombs” by critics – to kill coyotes, foxes and other animals across the US.

    The spring-loaded traps, called M-44s, are filled with sodium cyanide and are most frequently deployed by Wildlife Services, a federal agency in the US Department of Agriculture that kills vast numbers of wild animals each year, primarily for the benefit of private farmers and ranchers.

    In 2018, Wildlife Services reported that its agents had dispatched more than 1.5 million native animals, from beavers to black bears, wolves, ducks and owls. Roughly 6,500 of them were killed by M-44s.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/08/trump-authorizes-cyanide-bombs-wildlife-services

    The Trump administration announced on Monday a major overhaul to the Endangered Species Act that it said would reduce regulations. Environmentalists said the changes would push more animals and plants to extinction because of threats from climate change and human activities.

    The changes end blanket protections for animals newly deemed threatened and allow federal authorities for the first time to take into account the economic cost of protecting a particular species.

    […]

    “These changes crash a bulldozer through the Endangered Species Act’s lifesaving protections for America’s most vulnerable wildlife,” said Noah Greenwald, endangered species director at the Center for Biological Diversity. “For animals like wolverines and monarch butterflies, this could be the beginning of the end

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/12/donald-trump-administration-weaken-endangered-species-act/1985543001/
    • Sabine 10.1

      13 August 2019 at 1:01 pm

      the cruelty is the point.
11. John Clover 11

    13 August 2019 at 1:31 pm

    Came across this link by Kabul to arguments against Global Warming really heavy reading and I only got a small way though it BUT if you are interested 🙂

    • Anyone genuinely interested in the origin and development of the climate warming/cooling/emergency debate should read this. It gives a very succinct summary of how we have got to the present situation and who the main influencers are.
      https://stovouno.org/2019/02/23/globalism-of-climate-how-faux-environmental-concern-hides-desire-to-rule-the-world/
    • McFlock 11.1

      13 August 2019 at 1:39 pm

      headline lost me before bothering to start.

      Did you get to the bit where they managed to get 97% of climate scientists in on the fraud?
      • weka 11.1.1

        13 August 2019 at 2:12 pm

        Everybody wants to rule the world.
        • Sacha 11.1.1.1

          13 August 2019 at 3:41 pm

          Nothing ever lasts forever
          • Poission 11.1.1.1.1

            13 August 2019 at 3:46 pm

            Tourist gifts seem to.There is nothing new under the sun.

            I went to Rome and all I got you was this cheap pen’

            https://twitter.com/MOLArchaeology/status/1155381225919565824
    • Fireblade 11.2

      13 August 2019 at 2:56 pm

      I blame the Rothschilds, the Freemasons, the Skull and Bones Society, the Bush family, the Clintons, Trump, Obama, the CIA, the Russians, the Nazis, the Jews, the Bilderberg Group, the Lizard Aliens, the Hippies, Queen (Elizabeth not Freddie) and the Pope.
      • Andre 11.2.1

        13 August 2019 at 3:08 pm

        Aha! You must be one of the Illuminati, trying to deflect scrutiny elsewhere!
        • Fireblade 11.2.1.1

          13 August 2019 at 4:04 pm

          You've blown my cover! I'll never be promoted to Grand Poobah now.
          • In Vino 11.2.1.1.1

            13 August 2019 at 4:44 pm

            Wot abaht us Atheists? Why do we never get a mention?
            • greywarshark 11.2.1.1.1.1

              13 August 2019 at 7:37 pm

              A chap I knew who didn't have a sense of humour disliked this grafitti.

              What about:

              Down with grils.

              You mean girls!

              Hey, what about us grils?
              • In Vino …

                13 August 2019 at 7:52 pm

                Bloody typical ..
              • joe90 …

                13 August 2019 at 7:59 pm

                Graffiti?

                https://twitter.com/skeuomorphology/status/1159520562072489985
12. marty mars 12

    13 August 2019 at 2:13 pm

    Another deeper angle of concern

    For mental health professionals who specialise in the polar region, the latest survey findings from Greenland will present another red flag for the Arctic’s vulnerable Inuit communities. According to Courtney Howard, the board president of the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment, who lives and works in the Arctic, the intersection between the climate emergency and mental and physical health will become one of the world’s major issues.

    Howard said: “Temperature change is magnified in circumpolar regions. There is no question Arctic people are now showing symptoms of anxiety, ‘ecological grief’ and even post-traumatic stress related to the effects of climate change.

    “We are challenging the medical profession to acknowledge the world we are inheriting. Schools and universities aren’t considering how climate change will affect people, from a medical or a psychological perspective, so we are not training a new generation of medical professionals to help people in a fast-changing planet and this is intolerable. We are moving too slowly on this.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/12/greenland-residents-traumatised-by-climate-emergency
    • weka 12.1

      13 August 2019 at 2:34 pm

      Moving too slowly on everything.

      I had to stop and consider my own mental wellbeing this week after watching a Extinction Rebellion video. It's full on and it's still a relatively taboo subject. I agree this is going to be a massive issue.
      • Robert Guyton 12.1.1

        13 August 2019 at 3:54 pm

        "Ecological grief"

        Had that since I was a boy, realising I couldn't find geckoes clambering through the manuka, they way they pre-historically had. I still look, every time I see manuka; it's an odd habit, but I'm not giving up. I'm determined to do/keep doing something about it.
        • francesca 12.1.1.1

          13 August 2019 at 4:20 pm

          This Autumn we had beautiful little geckoes, sometimes three , come out at dark , and climb up an Iochroma against the veranda.It was a nightly treat, just to watch them .

          The Iochroma was flowering, not sure whether they were after insects or nectar or both .These were silvery type ones, beautifully patterned, but we have the grey/green ones and occasionally see the very special emerald greens.

          When my boys re insulated the roof , they found geckoes

          Keep up with the rat control

          Now the glow worms are all lit up, like a little civilisation in our clay bank out the back.
          • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1.1

            13 August 2019 at 4:37 pm

            Magical! You are very fortunate. Geckos pollinate flowers when the sup from their nectar. I once kept a lime-green "Wellington" gecko; watched it's every move for hours on end.

            I too regret the loss of frogs. I only knew the Australians, but have seen live, two of our natives. Frog croaking, cricket-chirping and katydid tzicking; I miss those languages.
            • weka 12.1.1.1.1.1

              13 August 2019 at 7:01 pm

              I think I can probably count the number of times I have seen a gecko on the fingers of one hand.
              • lprent …

                13 August 2019 at 9:33 pm

                Probably due to one of my cats. Before she got too old or uninterested to hunt, she used to return with your handful at least once a month as unwanted offerings for me.

                Or perhaps St Lukes Shopping Centre. It was a gecko heaven in the basalt rock field before they dropped the shopping centre into its space.
                • Sacha …

                  13 August 2019 at 10:18 pm

                  What was at St Lukes before the mall?
        • francesca 12.1.1.2

          13 August 2019 at 4:24 pm

          I miss frogs, of all things .They used to be boringly common.We have heaps of whistling tree frogs that chirrup at night like birds , but not the ordinary croaker

          Wekas have come back, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a go at the geckoes, they certainly predate the powelliphanta snails
13. Adrian Thornton 13

    13 August 2019 at 2:24 pm

    The United States of America the psychopathic bullies of the world, totally out of control…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37-PILH78Ys
14. cleangreen 14

    13 August 2019 at 4:39 pm

    Why dont we use this against the opposition forces against climate change?

    https://survivallife.com/sound-frequency-weapon/
15. Andre 15

    13 August 2019 at 6:19 pm

    Grab 'em by the pussy? – boys will be boys

    He's got the hots for his daughter? – good wholesome family games

    Paying no taxes and stiffing contractors? – hey, that's good bizness

    Rooting porn stars while your your third wife is out of action delivering your kid? – who wouldn't?

    Taking the Lord's name in vain – Whoooaa there buddy, you just crossed a big red line.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/12/trump-evangelicals-blasphemy-profanity-1456178
    • greywarshark 15.1

      13 August 2019 at 8:30 pm

      They have loose standards these USA evangelicals. For a leader to be using that sort of language, and demeaning God's children who haven't yet found the Light and joined their church, is a big strike against them. By their words ye shall know them! And his heart is in his speech, and you can see it for the poisoned thing it is.

      I did a comment with link about his boyhood the other day. He was known for saying anything without filtering it, and sticking to whatever he said. He is suggestible; after watching the modern opera West Side Story he and his mates caught the train to town and bought some knives ready to emulate the action of the gangs in the film. He was about 12 then. One of his teachers, a woman, said he would sometimes cross his arms and scowl at her refusing to do class work. He pleases himself as a regular behaviour, and was and is a bully.

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