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Open mike 13/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 13th, 2020 - 257 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

257 comments on “Open mike 13/08/2020 ”

  1. adam 1

    In the grand obama tradition, socialists, greens and others get a big FU from the democratic party.

    A [deleted] is little better than a punch in the face.

    Scraps from the masters table mentality wins out again.

    What a time to be alive, liberals want their hand on the cooky jar, so screw the poor, disenfranchised, and the weak. A liberal wants to be stronger than king george the third.

    Down with all authoritarian arsholes, and the people who support that sickening ideology be it a right or left version.

    [I have deleted your racist slur that you repeated from last night’s comment on TRP’s Post Biden/Harris. You have been warned and banned for this kind of behaviour before. See you in two weeks – Incognito on behalf of TRP]

    • Andre 1.1

      Now that my abs have stopped aching from the belly laugh that tantrum induced, I could do with another.

      Pray tell, who could Biden have picked that would have persuaded you that Biden has at heart the interests of "socialists, greens and others"?

    • Incognito 1.2

      See my Moderation note @ 7:52 AM.

  2. Rosemary McDonald 2

    Given that at least 40% of Covid infectious are asymptomatic….why is Uncle Ashley saying only those who are symptomatic should be tested?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018759267/covid-19-mt-albert-grammar-student-tested-positive-bloomfield-confirms

    • Sabine 2.1

      elimination process

      start with the ones that have symptoms

      followed by those that live with those that have symptoms

      followed by those that work with those that have symptoms

      followed by those that came in contact with those that have symptoms

      followed by the family and friends and collegues of all those that have come into contact with someone who came into contact with someone who has shown symptoms.

      and then you pretty much tested quite a few 'asymptomatics' in the process

      I don't know why this is so hard to understand? Unless we have 5 million tests r to test everyone right now it makes sense to start with the ones that show symptoms and drill down from there. I don't see how you want to find these 'asymptomatics' considering that they don't show symptoms.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1

        Sabine…people who have had symptoms but have not ticked the 'crossing the border' or 'contact with a confirmed case' boxes have been refused tests by GPs, and have been advised by Healthline they don't need a test.

        This is not the way to be confident there is no community transmission.

        Oh, and asymptomatic people can and do infect others. Potentially more a risk than the symptomatic because they and their associates are not necessarily taking precautions. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

        • weka 2.1.1.1

          how did we manage to eliminate covid before then?

          It's about lowering risk and odds, not creating an absolute firewall. If it as about a firewall, we'd all be in L4.

          I think we are still learning about transmission, infection and testing. As you know, MoH works with mainstream (conservative) health assessments, not the leading edge stuff.

          • weka 2.1.1.1.1

            this is interesting though,

            "Epidemiologist Michael Baker said an outbreak usually went through a few generations of transmission before someone became sick enough to present with symptoms."

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423412/experts-michael-baker-and-shaun-hendy-share-concerns-auckland-outbreak-could-be-generations-deep

            Does this suggest that most cases have symptoms lower than what would send someone to the doctor?

            • Andre 2.1.1.1.1.1

              If roughly half of all cases are asymptomatic, and 80% of symptomatic cases are "mild", then only roughly 10% of cases are stronger than "mild".

              So yeah, depending on where "sick enough to see a doctor" sits in relation to "mild", it may be that very few Covid victims end up feeling crap enough to bother with seeing a medical professional.

              • weka

                which means that if the current original four are several generations down the line, then the community transmission will be wide.

                Do you have a sense of the numbers here compared to our first wave? To me it looks like this is a situation we've dealt with effectively before, this time being smaller numbers, it's just a matter of taking the time to get on top of it.

                • Andre

                  We had a few hundred active cases in the community and events conducive to superspreading still happening and a somewhat blase community attitude right up until the first lockdown at the end of March.

                  This time we jumped on it as soon as the first cases were detected, and a community that's somewhat more ready to go straight to the behavioural changes needed.

                  So we're starting in a much better place to beat it this time around, so it should happen a bit quicker. Not much quicker, though, there's still the time needed to allow for undetected chains of transmission to die out.

                  • Incognito

                    Not much quicker, though, there's still the time needed to allow for undetected chains of transmission to die out.

                    QFT

                  • weka

                    that's how I see it. I suspect that some of the anxiety is that people still don't understand the timelag thing and that not knowing doesn't = out of control.

            • Anker 2.1.1.1.1.2

              My understanding Rosemary is that they are testing all close contacts incl asymptomatic

          • Climaction 2.1.1.1.2

            Well it wasn’t eliminated. It was there, just undiscovered as untested until it made someone sick.

            if we can accept that elimination appears to altogether impossible, why can’t we follow Sabine’s same principles but for treatment and care. Then at least 40% of the population are asymptomatic can carry on with life

            • Hanswurst 2.1.1.1.2.1

              It was there

              Oh, so you did some tests, did you?

            • weka 2.1.1.1.2.2

              Elimination here means known community transmission. We did eliminate that.

              Not sure what your second paragraph is about, but we're not going to let the virus widespread into the community if we can help it because it will kill people and make others disabled.

            • Incognito 2.1.1.1.2.3

              Do you know what “asymptomatic” means in this context?

              https://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/GPPulse/Opinion/Asymptomatic-spread-of-COVID-19

            • McFlock 2.1.1.1.2.4

              so it was infecting people at decent rate, but nobody was symptomatic for 100 days?

              That's almost better than a new outbreak from an unidentified overseas source. Except then we need to figure out why it suddenly decided to cause serious symptoms again.

        • Sabine 2.1.1.2

          A-symptomatic do not show symptoms, hence they don't get tested.

          People with symptoms do get tested if they come from overseas, have contact with people coming from overseas etc.

          So frankly what is happening is good allocation of limited resources. There is no such thing as 'confidence' if one is honest with one self, as we are dealing with a virus that changes / mutates rapidly, with testing that is not yet at a hundred percent reliability and above all we deal with people who may or may not actually be co-operating.

          I don't know what is hard to understand that asymptomatic people don't even know that they are infected in the first place.

          And that is the last i have to add to this.

        • Grumpy 2.1.1.3

          Silly, they dont have enough testing kits and staff resources to test everyone that needs to be. That puts us way behind USA and UK.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.3.1

            USA, UK or NZ – know where I'd rather be. "We don't know how lucky we are…"

      • Bearded Git 2.1.2

        You have nailed it Sabine. It really was a stupid question….but I think on purpose with an agenda attached.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2.1

          …but I think on purpose with an agenda attached.

          What agenda? Be specific.

          I don't understand why there is next to no acknowledgement that most people are asymptomatic and therefore are not considered a risk. They won't have been tested and are free ranging.

          • Hanswurst 2.1.2.1.1

            On the contrary. My reading is that it is pretty much universally acknowledged, but what are you going to do, short of testing absolutely everybody, all the time? What do you actually suggest?

            • Grumpy 2.1.2.1.1.1

              That is exactly what the USA is attempting. Of course, the more you test the more you find.

              And that is why, Dorothy, we know that over 80% of infection are symptomatic…….

            • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2.1.1.2

              What do you actually suggest?

              Sorry for the delay…trees to plant, sheep to wrangle, meds and supplies to tee up for disabled partner just in case shit gets real again.

              1. I am concerned that up until now Healthline and GPs have been refusing/advising against testing of even symptomatic people unless they tick one of the other criteria…close contact with confirmed case, border crossing or contact with border control personnel(who I understand have had no mandatory routine testing up until recently.).

              2. These two…https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423412/experts-michael-baker-and-shaun-hendy-share-concerns-auckland-outbreak-could-be-generations-deep … also have concerns that current cases are 'generations deep'.

              Epidemiologist Michael Baker said an outbreak usually went through a few generations of transmission before someone became sick enough to present with symptoms.

              That could take about three weeks, he said.

              Physicist and disease modeller Shaun Hendy agreed, saying there could be several layers to the outbreak.

              "If [the virus] has been passed from someone who arrived, and passed through several people to this family, then they could have passed it onto other people as well," he said.

              And even today Ardern and Bloomfield are still placing weight to a person's symptom status when trying to ascertain if they were infectious…

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423443/covid-19-update-13-new-cases-in-community-one-in-managed-isolation

              The student was not symptomatic while at school and has not been at school since they became unwell and got tested so the chance of exposure … is low at this point.

              Ardern says you can go to your local GP for a free test. If you are symptomatic you should call ahead so they can prepare for you.

              At this stage it should not make any difference. Symptomatic or not. Ardern actually got it right some months ago when she advised us all to behave as if we were infected.

              Its a huge concern that a contact of the current cluster visited an as yet un-named aged care facility in the Waikato…but the reality is that this is the season for respiratory infections to run through such places, and despite the best efforts of staff, a few of the residents are going to see their last winter.

              • Sacha

                this is the season for respiratory infections

                Which answers part of your question about why tests have not been routinely offered to every New Zealander with symptoms over the last few months. Swamped would be the word.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  I'd really, really like to see us all have an antibody test or somesuch. Get more of a true picture of how widespread Te Virus has been. Be more than worth the $$$ spent.

                  • Sacha

                    I see they're investing in DNA testing for this recent outbreak.

                    • Incognito

                      DNA sequencing is done for a completely different reason than an antibody test. Different jobs require different tools.

          • Bearded Git 2.1.2.1.2

            Your agenda, Rosemary, seems to me to be to reduce the public's confidence in the testing programme, rather than accept that the programme is, and has been for months, efficient and effective.

            • Grumpy 2.1.2.1.2.1

              Hang on…..if they are only testing those who are highly likely to have the virus and not testing any of the 80% of infectious people who have the virus but are asymptomatic, how the hell can we have any confidence in the testing?

              • Incognito

                What do you mean by “confidence in the testing”? Where’s that 80% figure coming from? Link?

            • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2.1.2.2

              …to be to reduce the public's confidence in the testing programme,

              Hmm, I guess I should feel flattered that you think little old moi has such influence…wink

              Believe it or not, (and I care not either way where you fall) I am genuinely interested in how (my long time foe) the Ministry of Health (may the fleas from a thousand camels infect their collective armpit) devise their policies.

              From my readings over the years about DSS and various Public Health issues, the Mystery policy writers seem not to be overburdened with intelligence, common sense or transparency.

              From the very beginning of the shit show they have maintained the line that we should only be concerned about symptomatic people passing on infections. Very little if any precautions are needed if confirmed disease is not present.

              The "PPE for front line health workers" debacle will go down in history (for some of us who were affected) as one of the less 'efficient and effective' aspects of the Ministry's work on this. I have been banging on about how they should have taken a precautionary approach from day one with the directives on mask wearing for those caring for vulnerable people either in hospital, residential care or in their own homes.

              To hear Ardern using the expression 'precautionary approach' a number of times on the Natrad this morning had me snorting with irony. It may be a little late for that now.

              Bearded Git. You do know we still have freedom of thought, opinion and speech…right? Is is now a criminal offense, treason perhaps, to express concern that a government agency might have erred in the management of some aspects of a public health crisis?

              Because it wouldn't be the first time.

              Lightish reading for you…https://www.bwb.co.nz/books/health-people

        • weka 2.1.2.2

          I'd also like to know what agenda you think Rosemary has here.

    • mpledger 2.2

      I would guess that they want to catch the asymptomatic people through contact tracing not through testing – it's way more efficient.

      IWG 99% of Aucklanders are asymptomatic purely because they don't have the disease, they don't want to put all their testing resources into people with no evidence of disease instead of people with evidence of disease.

      The sooner they find people with disease, the sooner they can get their contacts and find the asymptomatics.

      [That being said, if you think for any reason that you should have a test then ring up healthline and get their advice.]

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1

        [That being said, if you think for any reason that you should have a test then ring up healthline and get their advice.]

        People with symptoms but who don't meet the other criteria are being refused tests…especially by GPs. Because they don't tick the other boxes set by the Ministry.

        Update…the MOH webpage has been revised…now saying anyone with symptoms should be tested and not adding on the 'confirmed case contact' or 'border contact' criteria.

        • weka 2.2.1.1

          because now we have community transmission, the criteria needs to change. Last week, if someone didn't have a plausible pathway of having been infected, what would be the point of testing?

          • Sacha 2.2.1.1.1

            And the change to testing everyone with symptoms was made at the same time as the alert level change.

            As @mpledger says, they are relying on contact tracing (and dna testing) to fill the gaps in the other direction fast enough.

          • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1.1.2

            …if someone didn't have a plausible pathway of having been infected,

            We've made the assumption there is no community transmission…how would we know if only symptomatic folk have been tested (other than close contacts of confirmed cases)? I have this growing suspicion that because of the previously very narrow criteria for testing, many cases have gone undetected.

            Asking around the whanau and wider contacts, so many of us have had various symptoms and have experienced some of the sequelae being reported (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122255216/heres-what-we-know-so-far-about-the-longterm-symptoms-of-covid19) but ether did not get tested because we didn't meet the criteria du jour, or were refused a test from a GP and an initial public testing station swab came back negative so they didn't go back or a follow up test…which can show positive.

            • weka 2.2.1.1.2.1

              "We've made the assumption there is no community transmission"

              I think the assumption from the government is that there was no known community transmission, which is a different thing.

              I think they've done random community testing in places though.

              If there was widespread latent community transmission, why have we not had a known outbreak before now?

      • weka 2.2.2

        that's a good explanation mpledger.

      • Incognito 2.2.3

        There’s also the issue of false negatives, which often gets ignored (…). This is not anybody’s fault, least of all MoH’s, but a simple fact/consequence of the testing methodology.

    • adam 2.3

      Given that at least 40% of Covid infectious are asymptomatic

      Just more reasons to keep borders shut for a bit.

      • gsays 2.3.1

        Yes to closed borders for a bit longer, but was is the sort of cargo that must keep coming in on air freight?

        I can understand some medicines but what else? Hopefully not trinkets and baubles….

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.1

          Hopefully not trinkets and baubles….

          Don't know about anyone else…but my laptop screen is littered with ads for such.

          I have not as yet figured out how to quell them.

          And I agree….close the borders….returning Kiwis only…no exceptions.

          Or flag the whole extreme caution thing and treat it like any other cold.

        • weka 2.3.1.2

          I've bought a few things online that have come from overseas. After the initial lockdowns, I think NZ went back to BAU on that score (depending on overseas supplies).

          Previously the advice was that package surfaces weren't a high risk. I'd guess it's more likely to be airline staff, and goods that are conducive to viruses surviving.

          • Sacha 2.3.1.2.1

            If ordinary parcels were a transmission vector, they would have shown up before now in tracing and testing.

            • Andre 2.3.1.2.1.1

              Not necessarily. A teeny-tiny risk per parcel multiplied by millions or even billions of parcels can multiply together to make a big enough risk to the nation to take precautions against. That it hasn't been detected yet doesn't mean it hasn't or won't happen.

        • Sabine 2.3.1.3

          Food, and ingredients for food production come via freight.

          A lot of furniture, clothes, cars, spare parts etc come via freight.
          Medical goods come via freight.

          Books, toys, stuff for the building industry all come in via freight and so on and so on. I mean it is a good time to go back to the 18 century, all of us pioneers and such, but really?

          So please define trinkets and baubles. What do you not need and thus can be of no use to someone else. 🙂

          • gsays 2.3.1.3.1

            My waters tell me there is a touch of the 1800s in our future. What an opportunity to pivot towards it.

            Trinkets and baubles would include: nice to haves eg foreign fruit/vege, beef, pork, belgian hash browns, stuff that is bought without knowing it was needed, lots of electronic devices – teles, phones.

            Surely we can build without too much input from overseas, wood, cement, screws, gib, corrugated iron locally sourced.

            • Sabine 2.3.1.3.1.1

              i am just glad you left out seasoning and salt from your list.

              🙂

              no thanks, this women does not want to go back to the good old days of the 1800s.

      • Incognito 2.3.2

        Illogical, everybody (!) has to undergo 14-day isolation upon arriving at the border and are tested twice and have to return a negative test before allowed to leave the facility.

    • Gabby 2.4

      Cos he's not Oprah, he can't say everybody gets a test.

    • newsense 2.5

      Excuse my ignorance, but a lot of stats in this thread without sources, about asymptomatic cases, mild cases etc.

  3. Tiger Mountain 3

    Has anyone figured out yet why the Govt. did not dissolve Parliament on schedule?

    By not doing so they have opened up a nice big space for National to boost their dirty tricks into hyperdrive–and the technical possibility of a deferred election.

    • Andre 3.1

      Some of the reasons are touched on here:

      https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/election-date-debate-collins-risks-alienating-voters-by-pressing-ardern/ar-BB17RpKS?li=BBqdg4K&ocid=mailsignout

      In short, given the fast-evolving nature of the current crisis, some decisions and actions could work out better by having parliament still in place and able to do its job.

    • lprent 3.2

      Several reasons.

      • They may need to pass legislation. For instance legislation about how to hold an election in level 3/4 area.
      • They get time to go over the preparations and procedures for a covid-19 election with the electoral commission.
      • By delaying the dissolution, they also delay the writ day – which means that they can still move election date without doing the week-by-week procedure.
      • They get time to find out how widespread the community infection is before making these kinds of decisions.
      • They get time to talk to the various political parties to get some kind of agreement on these things. That doesn’t look particularly useful with some of the crazed children in National screaming ‘look at me’. But the other political parties seem likely to be able to make rational decisions.

      If the community transmission had been discovered a few days later then the writ would have been issued, and everything would have been far more complicated.

      • Tiger Mountain 3.2.1

        Good points from Andre’s link and lprent’s learned view.

        My subjective take is that National’s idea of co-operation in a crisis is still a “swift kick to the nuts” rather than anything too genuine. Simon Bridges demonstrated that in Covid round 1, and Mr Muller and Mrs Collins continued that approach.

    • Stephen D 3.3

      True, but the dirty tricks seem to be driving their poll ratings down. High teens anyone??

  4. observer 4

    Yesterday Judith Collins said that her preference is for NZ to hold the election next year.

    She may not realize it (the media haven't picked up on it yet) but she is actually calling for a whole raft of by-elections. Let's work through the consequences:

    1. MPs who quit Parliament must be replaced. That was/is expected to happen at the coming election. No issue there.

    2. But if the election is delayed until next year (which means at least March or April, there's no way you'd have one in January) then those MPs must return to Parliament.

    3. Andrew Falloon cannot return, he is no longer an MP. So: Rangitata by-election.

    4. All other MPs must return – or resign.

    5. So Hamish Walker must return, in disgrace. Other electorate MPs who desperately wanted to get out, must come back instead (Dowie, Kaye, etc).

    6. List MPs quit, no problem there. They are replaced by the next person on the list.

    7. But if electorate MPs don't come back and continue to work, they must get leave to be absent. How long? Six months? Eight? Good luck explaining that one to the taxpayers, and the voters with no local MP.

    8. By-elections are usually avoided when they are too close to an election date. So if we have a date in Oct/Nov 2020, there is still a problem (Walker and co getting extra weeks of paid vacation) but that's for them to explain to their voters.

    9. But to delay until next year with no date means the current Parliament remains, indefinitely. So all electorate MPs must stay – or be replaced through a by-election.

    Finally, look at the long, long list of National MPs who thought they were getting out now. Imagine them sitting in caucus for months and months, not wanting to be there. Imagine how they would feel about their leader. Imagine how long she would last …

    • EE 4.1

      There’s very inconsistent messaging from Judith Collins around all of this.
      On the one hand, she wants more involvement in decision making.
      On the other, she wants to delay the election.
      She is sure that she will win the election,
      and in doing so would have all the decision-making.
      Why delay the election, Judith?

    • ScottGN 4.2

      Imagine the trouble Bennett will cause of mean ole Judith forces her to delay her grand entrance into the private sector? I mean she’s probably got all the New Idea cover photos done!

      • observer 4.2.1

        I'd actually forgotten that both Bennett and Adams were still electorate MPs, because they both announced ages ago that they would move to the list (i.e. before the big meltdown).

        So, National-held electorates whose MP doesn't want to be there, or who the National party doesn't want:

        Auckland Central. Upper Harbour. East Coast. Otaki. Wairarapa. Selwyn. Southland. Invercargill (plus Rangitata, no MP at all). Any others?

        And Judith thinks they are all happy to stay in Parliament, for at least another six months.

        • ScottGN 4.2.1.1

          1 counted 10 Nats – Falloon, Adams, Kaye, Scott, Guy, Barry, Dowie, Bennett, Tolley, Walker.

          Plus 3 Lab – ILG, Dyson and Curran.

          I may have missed a couple?

    • weka 4.3

      Maybe National didn't think about those things.

      I can't see any reason to put the election off at this stage. We may be back in consistent L1 by then. What would be the point of making the decision now?

    • Sabine 4.4

      why should those that are on 'leave' get more then the mandated 4 weeks?

      Honestly how quickly do you think all these National MPs that are trying like hell to get out would raise a stink of epic proportions in order to get out? Would Mrs. Oravida survive this actually?

      I mean, lets not have an election for a year….i don't think that the current coalition would do much different that they did up until now. So i can't see that as a real negative for them. But for National it would mean to have to work and live with people who want out and if they choose not to return would / should be on unpaid leave for the duration. They would not like that one bit.

    • Incognito 4.5

      It would give JC and National a much-needed stay of execution. I don’t think JC and National would be averse to some really dirty guerrilla political warfare on the ground; it would suit them down to the ground, as they cannot beat JA by attacking her head-on.

    • mickysavage 4.6

      Mind if we convert this into a guest post? It captures so many problems for the opposition …

  5. tc 5

    Our media pick up what they're told to. They're busy breathing life into the tinfoil hat agenda whilst akl has this outbreak.

    They continue to serve the owners not the people.

  6. Tricledrown 6

    Collins is being a Dick just like Bridges

  7. ianmac 7

    Crikey! Kim has just given one of her full-on interview with the abject Judith. Except that Judith is in denial and as usual doubled down on everything. A must listen to when it comes on.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018759286

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018759286/covid-19-judith-collins-hits-back-at-grant-robertson-after-he-called-opposition-claims-nonsense

    [second link added – weka]

    • ianmac…yes another Dame Hill classic…..wonderful….she should be cloned.

    • Robert Guyton 7.2

      Yes, that was devastating from Kim. She is not in the slightest awed by Collins and is happy to eviscerate her repeatedly.

    • Treetop 7.3

      If Collins has a better management plan then I want to hear it. I would actually listen to her alternative then I could judge for myself.

      Hill needed to ask Collins to put out an alternative Covid management plan.

      Collins would then say that she is not the government so not responsible and Collins would keep attacking a government and an PM who are giving it their all.

    • JohnSelway 7.4

      Kim Hill on good form

    • Sacha 7.5

      If you have 13 minutes, a damn good use of your attention. Brilliant example of not taking shit from an evasive, dishonest interviewee.

    • Just Is 7.6

      Finally someone holding Collins to account.

      Collins displaying all that self entitlement that the National Party portrays on a daily basis.

      Collins and Brownlee are only seat warmers, they'll have "Leader and Deputy Leader" on their CVs, finally after 2 decades or more of being basically Incompetent.

    • halfcrown 7.7

      Yeah, I heard that. Kim Hill ripped the shit out of Collins. Watch your back Kim Hill because if the Tories get in with Collins in charge, you will be gone burger by lunchtime after that classic.

    • Barfly 7.8

      I listened to that and I feel somewhat ill.

      Judith Collins is a truly vile person and should come with a health warning.

  8. ScottGN 8

    Kim v Collins on Morning Report. Astonishing.

  9. Andre 9

    Stench of serious corruption wafting from NZTA:

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nzta-lashed-for-retrospective-tender

    The transportation infrastructure industry and its procurers certainly appear to have more than their fair share of outright corruption here in New Zealand. There was also that Auckland Council thing not too long ago …

    • Ad 9.1

      Newsroom are not wrong to accuse NZTA of hiding the report.

      All they would need to do is wait for this Friday – or any other Covid status change day.

      Stench well buried.

  10. Just Is 10

    Here's at least one reporter challenging Collins and Brownlees behavior regarding their outlandish statements designed scare the public.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/the-paranoid-style-in-new-zealand-politics

    • mac1 10.1

      I hope Brownlee's smirk at the end of his part of yesterday’s press conference goes viral as a classic piece of body language being more truthful than the words uttered.

      Another great piece of smirkery was in the final week of Parliament when Winston Peters asked a supplementary question of the PM and then, before he sat down, looked across at the National front bench and gave the smallest of smirks.

      It said, "Gotcha," "Take that" and "If you think I want to join political forces with you, get another opinion".

      • Incognito 10.1.1

        Brownlee didn’t raise an eyebrow, did he?

        • mac1 10.1.1.1

          He did……. with me!

          He almost got to nano-robots in vaccines taking instructions from the UN via 5G and bending us to the will of the Wicked One as foretold in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

          • Shanreagh 10.1.1.1.1

            So Brownlee may have missed out the impact of the Lizard people then? What is the use of having a conspiracy theory if you leave off a vital part of it?

            • mac1 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Sorry, Shanreagh, but I don't believe in the Lizard people. The little people, yes, but lizards can stay under rocks.

  11. I hope support and wrap around services are in place for the affected family and friends. This "It is costing Auckland $400 000 a week" is like that is the only cost.

    This family could be impacted for months, their mental health and well being must be impacted by all the 'should have-could have' comments.

    We had all stopped distancing, felt safe and happy. How shattered their world is.

    I live in Rotorua, so feel anxious again. This is a sneaky virus, which doesn't discriminate. The people concerned are needing kindness and cooperation in the face of a community threat.

    They are sure to be checking and rechecking lists of where they went, when and who they spent time with. A bloody nightmare.

    • Treetop 11.1

      The country was on vacation and the vacation is over.

      Probably level 3 in Rotorua in the next day or two. I would not outrule else where going to level 3. Doing the stuff that works (wearing masks, testing, contacting tracing, isolating, being kind to yourself and others). This will make a difference.

      • Sabine 11.1.1

        My guess is level four if the staff that worked at the eatery that the person from auckland went to comes through infected. And in saying that it might be the easiest to just shut it all down again.

    • Sabine 11.2

      The best way is to stay in level 3 permanently. Guidough in Rotorua did just that. He never came out of Level 3, no on gets in the business, curbside trading only. I do the same.

      Pretend you are in Level three, and if worried, or if someone at high risk, call and order in and have delivered. Specially in Rotorua the businesses have been great about this. The community has been great about this.

      I am feeling much saver here then in AKL.

      As for the family, it sucks to be them, but in the end it was just an accident waiting to happen. I hope they get enough money to pay the bills, and keep their homes, and then can go back to work. If at this stage in the year 2020 people want to stigmatise others for catching a disease at work, they should be called out for it and loudly so.

    • Herodotus 11.3

      This is NOT a sneaky virus, to say so is to say that the virus makes conscious decisions on its behaviour !!!

      Giving human characteristics to animals, inanimate objects or natural phenomena is a human trait called “to anthropomorphize.” Sadly, as in the tragic Sea World attack the proclivity is forgotten as we wonder why the animal behaved as an animal.

      I am yet to read any commentary that the virus was already here present within NZ, and if so then that raises the question that part of our response to this resurgence could be inappropriate or mis guided i.e we are seeking a solution to the wrong question.

      • Incognito 11.3.1

        I am yet to read any commentary that the virus was already here present within NZ, and if so then that raises the question that part of our response to this resurgence could be inappropriate or mis guided i.e we are seeking a solution to the wrong question.

        That Q has been addressed and put to rest by Dr Bloomfield and also by Professor Shaun Hendy IIRC. There are loads of smart cookies in the room and the chances that they have overlooked something so basic are very small IMHO. But we still have the doubters, cynics, and ‘sceptics’ …

        • Sabine 11.3.1.1

          yes, and us sceptics, cycincs, and doubters were all proven correct this week with our keeping up social distancing, keeping our bubbles real small, keeping up with the sanitizing, scanning of the app etc etc etc.

          One can do an excellent job and still listen to the doubters the cycnics and the sceptics and if only to not get complacent and smug.

          As Treetop said, the country went on vacation, got a little smug and boom…..here we go again.

          • Incognito 11.3.1.1.1

            I wasn’t talking about the country, I was talking about the smart people in the room. Even the most radical conspiracy theorist can ‘strike gold’ once but this doesn’t mean we should give them any oxygen. This isn’t about Cynics-Doubters vs. MoH-Experts 1 – 0.

            • PaddyOT 11.3.1.1.1.1

              The conspiracy according to Judith on rnz this morning with Kim Hill is ousted in this telling part.

              JUDITH "..and it absolutely does not have any credibilty to suggest that after being told that we have102 days of no Covid19 in community transmission, suddenly it appears, and no responsibilty taken and no looking at how it.. ( Hill interupts)."

              How did Judith or anyone think that Covid19 would re-appear if not SUDDENLY , slowly and overtly ???

              Yes Judith, Covid19 a microscopic entity, comes up the front path, knocks at your door with a name badge on and politely asks, ' Can, I come in please? '.

              Or Covid arrived by another plausible manner-: A Natz supporter illegally brings into the country a 'parcel' ; same mode as rabbit calicivirus transmission in 1997.

              More plausible because Judith stated, we will do 'whatever we have to' to get power back.

              Otherwise this explanation for Judith might have gone over her head about remaining vigilant.
              I recall most of those 102 days on updates a message of sorts was always given to act safely not be complacent, get tested, get the tracing app. So where does the Natz "suddenly" theory come from?

              In NZ, following WHO directives also and alerted by worldwide resurgence, ( nutters holding the likes of 'Covid parties'), the NZ Government in line with MOH undertakes proactive preparations and ad campaigns. Is remaining prepared Judith's conspiracy?

              • Incognito

                Some seem keen to turn the conspiracy theories back onto Judith, Gerry, and the National Party. We only need to look overseas to see where that gets us, i.e. further away from discerning truth.

                • Muttonbird

                  You can't rule anything out at this stage. We will never discern the truth if all scenarios are not explored, however unlikely.

                  Sabotage can’t be discounted, surely.

                  • Incognito

                    Not all scenarios are equal and wasting time & effort on chasing after “all scenarios” is a well-known and effective diversion tactic. Politics is about the effective and efficient distribution and use of resources. If the political process is flawed or hijacked then the outcome(s) of that process are likely to be sub-optimal at best.

                    • Muttonbird

                      It might not even have been orchestrated by the National Party.

                      We have seen how extreme right wing terrorists, with psychopathic vigilante action, take matters into their own hands.

                    • Sacha

                      The process during a crisis is somewhat different than otherwise. Good urgent decision-making relies on ruthless focus and discarding chaff. Anybody muddying the waters tends to get excluded. Collins can whinge all she likes from outside the bunker door.

                    • Incognito []

                      Plan B

                    • Sacha

                      Them as well. #spurned

                • PaddyOT

                  Fact, two persons on individual occasions have now attempted to break into Q facilities? What were their objectives other than being with malintent towards the safety of others?

        • Stunned Mullet 11.3.1.2

          Shaun Hendy … he of the school of stating the bleeding obvious, overestimation and lockdown extensions.

          Meanwhile the outpatient waiting times increase, elective surgeries are cancelled and we're back in catch up mode. ……FFS not happy.

          • Treetop 11.3.1.2.1

            Yes a problem and how to fix it safely and not unique to NZ.

            Designated hospitals for surgery and cancer treatment/diagnosis which cannot be postponed.

            The health system has been tested and any weakness of it is shown during a pandemic.

          • Incognito 11.3.1.2.2

            Shaun Hendy … he of the school of stating the bleeding obvious, overestimation and lockdown extensions.

            Pathetic response that suggests you have a chip on your shoulder and not heard of Science Communication. I can send you some of Hendy’s peer-reviewed scientific articles and see how far you get with understanding those.

            I don’t think anybody is happy about the most recent turn of events. Talking of stating the bleeding obvious.

          • Sacha 11.3.1.2.3

            Hendy and his colleagues have already saved more lives this year than you or I will ever do. Some of us respect that for what it is.

            • Stunned Mullet 11.3.1.2.3.1

              Bollocks ………Sean and his colleagues have saved exactly no lives this year nor would he claim they had.

              The models his group have provided to the Ministry of Health have been useful in the Minstry's decision making processes around reaction to Covid 19.

      • Muttonbird 11.3.2

        Its characteristics are sneaky in that some or even most carriers are asymptomatic. That makes it elusive and difficult to stop.

  12. Stunned Mullet 12

    Random impertinent questions

    Have those working in isolation facilities and at the border been subject to testing for Covid 19 over the last 3 months , if not why not?

    Has there been regular testing of waste water and effluent over the last 3 months for Covid 19 ?

  13. Andre 13

    I had kinda gone off of Bill Maher, but if he consistently lifts his game back up to the level of this mock eulogy for the fake-tan fuhrer, I might warm to him again.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-maher-response-trump-insult-tweet_n_5f34478dc5b6fc009a60eb67

  14. vto 14

    So some people have been posting that flights from Auckland have been landing at Queenstown this morning with holiday-makers offloading ….

    Does anyone know if this is right? And if it is right, it should be wrong?

    Thanks in anticipation…
    edit: govt website is silent on domestic flights and this issue…

  15. Predictions for covid levels announcement tomorrow.

    Auckland – Level 4 lockdown for 3 weeks minimum.

    Rest of North Island – Level 3

    South Island – Level 2

    • Sabine 15.1

      i'll see yours and rasie

      Auckland Level 4 – 3 weeks – starting tomorrow

      Rotorua Level 4 – 3 weeks – starting Sat – wednesday (exposure to the infected person by Staff at Fat Dog, Burger Fuel, Gondola, Red Woods etc etc etc)

      if another case is found in Taupo / Tauranga etc, North Island level 4 – 3 weeks – Wednesday

      South Island – see rest of North Island. – Wednesday.

      Oh well it was good while it last.

    • bwaghorn 15.2

      If they had any sense they would stop all travel between islands right now .

      Very easy to keep a good chunk open

    • Stunned Mullet 15.3

      I would be very surprised if Level 4 lockdown is implemented in Auckland it achieves little more than Level 3 in terms of Covid control and has very negative economic consequences and politically I'm not sure it would be wise.

      Now that the Wellington case looks like a false positive I'd wait for overnight testing results if there is little to no upwards/downwards transmission outside of the current cluster there may even be a relaxation in restrictions.

      • The Al1en 15.3.1

        I suppose it depends on whether they find new cases not attached to the known cluster. I hope you're right, though, I'm supposed to settle my house sale and purchase on 2/9, and leave Hamilton for the South Island.

        • Stunned Mullet 15.3.1.1

          Good luck with the sale and move south … where are you moving to in the SI ?

          • The Al1en 15.3.1.1.1

            Thanks, too expensive to move my junk, so I'm in the process of giving all my furniture and stuff to the Vinnies. Moving really light – just a car full of clothes, kettle and essentials, so shouldn't be much of a hassle, though it’s only a MX-5.

            I'm moving to that house for sale just down the road from greywarshark to get the supermarket tongues a wagging lol

            But seriously, Westport on the West coast. Damian O' electorate vote, party vote green.

            • bwaghorn 15.3.1.1.1.1

              Da ding ding ding ding ding ding .

              Cool I'd love to do the same one day.

              • The Al1en

                Couriering my TV, PC and music stuff, so foresight I always keep the boxes and packaging, but everything else is going. I did the same when I last moved, bar the fridge and two beds, but this time it's all going.

                A lady just came to pick up my old washing machine and it felt stink to find out they'd charged her $80 for it. If I'd have been really on to it, I would have advertised it on notice boards for free.

            • Stunned Mullet 15.3.1.1.1.2

              Westcoast .. beautiful part of the country, I'm sure you can't wait..

              • The Al1en

                I might have to 'cause covid, but yeah, waiting since months ago.

                • weka

                  I thought you'd already move. Good to hear it's happening soon, and not a bad time of year to set up there.

                  • The Al1en

                    Seems to have dragged on, but then it only really got serious once I found out I was being laid off after the wage subsidy runs out, so it focused my mind somewhat. Been a couple on months (or more) from offer to settlement.

                    Bought sight unseen (other than agents ad photos), though I did get an excellent builders report, so even though a bit fingers crossed, I'm not worried about it.

            • halfcrown 15.3.1.1.1.3

              I am jealous Al1en. I had a chance to move from this overrated and overcrowded shithole called Hamilton 15 years ago to Oamaru. One of the worse decisions I made by staying here and more concerned about making money instead of retiring gracefully and moving. Good luck pal I am sure you will not regret moving to the SI.

              • The Al1en

                I hear you, and while I don't actively dislike Hamilton (that much), it hasn't really given me a reason to stay put.

                First choice was Golden bay, but Westport was much more affordable, so won out. Finally I'll have a 1/4 acre section, which may not be the kiwi dream anymore, but it's long been mine. Hoping to do it justice.

      • Incognito 15.3.2

        yes

  16. Muttonbird 16

    Reporter Hannah Martin is at a testing facility in St Luke's, Auckland, which has a queue about 1km long. Everyone she's spoken to this morning "has felt symptomatic and has felt like this is the best call for them", she says.

    Let's say they are all symptomatic. Average distance between parked cars – 5m. Average number of people in each – 1.25. Average length of queue at each of Auckland's 15 testing stations – 500m.

    1875 symptomatic people doing voluntary testing in Auckland just this morning.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300078922/live-three-new-positive-covid19-tests-at-americold-warehouse-in-auckland-director-says

    • greywarshark 16.1

      The reports of the long time they have to spend waiting is bad. Six hours? There at 6 when it doesn't open till 8 am to make sure. Another yesterday at 6ish and long long wait. Must do better with this.

  17. joe90 17

    No half measures. Good.

    Australia's Northern Territory will be closed to visitors from virus hotspots for a further 18 months to protect its large and vulnerable Aboriginal population, authorities said Tuesday.

    The sparsely populated northern region is home to roughly 250,000 people — 30 percent of whom are Aboriginal — according to government figures.

    "We'll have our hard border controls in place for at least the next 18 months. And we're resourcing so we can do that," Chief Minister Michael Gunner told public broadcaster ABC.

    https://news.yahoo.com/australias-northern-region-face-virus-040901347.html

    • weka 17.1

      that is excellent. Let's hope the various authorities resource supporting the communities as well as policing them.

    • PaddyOT 17.2

      Suddenly, Natz dangerous, ignorant dissent is catchy –

      the immediate response ' lets get it spreading groups' protesting in NZ's vulnerable communities.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356284

      • greywarshark 17.2.1

        Arrest them and send them to an island where they can be together. Trouble is that if we have any empty islands we are trying to make them bird sanctuaries. This lot would kill 'em and eat 'em raw. So no good that idea.

        • PaddyOT 17.2.2.1

          Crack up! Go on joe90 you know you want to do it, just do it…write that eulogy now.smiley

          Positive deviance is effective.

        • weka 17.2.2.2

          thug attacking another thug.

          • joe90 17.2.2.2.1

            Has O'Sullivan been charged with assault?

            • weka 17.2.2.2.1.1

              he was the one being attacked. This time. Another time he's throwing a brick through a car window. Tory authoritarian as far as I can see.

              • weka

                One difference between Boynton and O'Sullivan might be class.

                • greywarshark

                  The difference might be that O'Sullivan gets riled up but is also busy trying to do good things for needy people, the other is a person who belongs to a group that have legitimate grievances from the past, and are better at growing them than anything else. Bet they haven't been the ones growing the illicit marijuana up there for decades. That requires real work.

                • joe90

                  One difference between Boynton and O'Sullivan might be class.

                  Indeed. A yawning gap between a previous offender with a fondness for using his fists and someone who, despite a rush of blood for which he was discharged with no convictions, has gotten off his arse and delivered free medical clinics, school-based health services and an initiative to improve housing.

      • solkta 17.2.3

        They have a bloody cheek flying the United Tribes flag. Hapu up here have been staunch in enforcing lockdown measures.

        • PaddyOT 17.2.3.1

          Agreed there. It angers me that so called leadership at the top levels ( Natz) role modelled 'dissent' and division in the first instance as a very public response.

          This Natz immediate public response was not about care for anyone or Judith's ass covering, slithering excuses given today on Kim Hill's rnz segment.

          The intent was dangerous Trumpism play for her air space. She flouted Auckland travel restrictions and found herself suddenly superfluous flapping around like granny knickers on the line.

          Thus, if it's okay for Judith to protest with her whackjob minions….

          • PaddyOT 17.2.3.1.1

            If Natz want their airwaves to campaign (then as the article says may happen ) join the protest in Auckland Saturday. Get out there you cowardly Natz and greet, kiss, hug and rub shoulders with the crowds.

            More potential infections in the hundreds in one go but hey Judith could grab the podium she craves.

  18. joe90 18

    Europe's last dictator.

  19. Herodotus @ 11.3 ( I can't get the reply button to work)

    “The virus is not sneaky”
    So on your grounds 'The virus is not tricky" either?

  20. joe90 20

    Oh.

    China’s Shenzhen Discovers Coronavirus in Brazil Poultry Product (8:45 a.m. HK)

    A sample of a frozen chicken wing imported from Brazil tested positive for coronavirus in China’s Shenzhen city, according to a statement from the local government.

    Virus tests of people who have possibly come into contact with the product — and tests of related products — all came back negative, the government said.

    Earlier, the outside of an Ecuador frozen shrimp package tested positive for coronavirus in a restaurant in Wuhu, a city in China’s Anhui province, state television CCTV reported.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-12/u-s-cases-climb-1-1-trump-pressures-schools-virus-update

  21. infused 21

    looks like level 3 for north island friday 11:59 and possible level 4 for auckland unless they find the rest of the close contacts tomorrow.

    watch the economy tank.

    [You might well be right but unless you can provide a reliable link, I assume you’re fearmongering. I’ve put you in Pre-Moderation until you put up something decent to support your ‘prediction’ or admit that it is a fidget of your imagination – Incognito]

    • Ed 21.1

      I hope you are not politicising a serious health crisis.

    • Tricledrown 21.2

      Confused cynically spreading Hysteria.

      Listening to Bloomfield today it is most likely things will continue as is

    • McFlock 21.3

      This "news" update was brought to you by JudCo Media (A subsidiary of Oravida Entertainment)

    • Draco T Bastard 21.4

      What's more important?

      People's health or rich people getting richer off of other people's work?

    • Incognito 21.5

      See my Moderation note @ 4:58 PM.

      • infused 21.5.1

        i cant say how I know that, obviously. so i guess im sitting here.

        [All your comments need to be manually approved before they appear in the front-end. Alternatively, they are moved to the Trash folder in the back-end.

        Are you telling me you made it all up and that you have no way of knowing? Not even an argument as to why you think that way? Just BS? – Incognito]

        • Incognito 21.5.1.1

          See my third and last Moderation note to you tonight @ 11:05 PM.

          • infused 21.5.1.1.1

            Nope – I heard from someone with direct knowledge. But I'm not department dropping here.

            [So, we have no way of verifying your rumour and you have not provided any decent argument either as to why you think your rumour may come true; you need to argue your point(s), not just spray & walkaway , as usual. Moved to the Blacklist until Monday – Incognito]

  22. RedBaronCV 22

    Don't know about elsewhere but here in Wellington it feels close to level 4 already. Very very quiet.

  23. greywarshark 23

    Some late night music.

    Bill Wurtz – St Helens

  24. sumsuch 24

    Are the number of commenters here getting up on the reactionaries over at Kiwiblog?

    • Incognito 24.1

      Nope, not by a long shot.

    • sumsuch 24.2

      Big stomachs bring on heart attacks and reactions to threats to your comfort, no matter how small ( the comfort).

      Our modern Left is scared primarily, but if we can deliver fear will dissolve. It's the only way for what's right.

  25. sumsuch 25

    May I just say I don't care about this 'deadly flu', as I described it to my dear but non-talking v.old mother. Compared to climate change … Christ help us.

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