Open Mike 13/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 13th, 2018 - 185 comments
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185 comments on “Open Mike 13/10/2018 ”

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  1. James 1
    13 October 2018 at 7:22 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/107797459/garner-why-are-we-so-vicious-and-vile-to-young-max-key

    Garner nails it !!!!!

    I’m guessing the answer is because a lot of people are sad and envious, disappointed where you ended up in life.

    Sounds like young Max is well grounded and happy- which is the best possible response to the people who said nasty things (of the caring left).

  2. James 2
    13 October 2018 at 7:26 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/107797459/garner-why-are-we-so-vicious-and-vile-to-young-max-key

    (Possible repost). Garner nails it !

    I believe the answer is people are sad and envious, disappointed with their own lives.

    Young max is aware and happy – fantastic outcome and you know he must be laughing as the miserable trolls now.

    • Hooch 2.1
      13 October 2018 at 7:43 am

      I look forward to Duncan having Joe Bloggs’ son from wainuiomata on the AM show and writing an article talking about what they’re up to and promoting them next week

    • Sacha 2.2
      13 October 2018 at 7:48 am

      You’re confusing envy with disdain. Why expect people to have much time for a rather average self-promoting rich kid?

    • Cinny 2.3
      13 October 2018 at 8:25 am

      Ok, so I watched the AM show yesterday when max was on.

      First thought, why is he even on the show, 15 minutes later was still left wondering.

      max did say he was not politically biased. But he’s obviously still chasing fame, even the herald have been running the odd story about his social life over the last year.

      Immediately following the interview the anti max emails came pouring in, and duncan was pissed off about it. I guess not everyone shares the same opinion as him on max key.

      Today’s opinion piece by garner is nothing but a follow up defending his unpopular idea to have max on the show in the first place.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1
        13 October 2018 at 10:52 am

        “Ok, so I watched the AM show yesterday…..”

        One of the 999, 999 reasons why I don’t watch telly.

        Spared this crap….;-)

        • cleangreen 2.3.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

          100% Rosemary.

          ‘Me too – no crap’ and i am so much more sane now.

          Max is a younger version of his father and will be as dangerous.

          • JohnSelway 2.3.1.1.1
            13 October 2018 at 5:50 pm

            “Max is a younger version of his father and will be as dangerous.”

            Oh you know him do you?

    • solkta 2.4
      13 October 2018 at 8:41 am

      The only conclusion i can come to having read that article is that Garner should masturbate in private like the rest of us.

    • joe90 2.5
      13 October 2018 at 11:20 am

      Why?, because he’s a knob end.

    • McFlock 2.6
      13 October 2018 at 2:17 pm

      That line about Amanda Gillies was plain weird.

      As for MK, he reminds me of the random-names who go on a reality tv show and then every so often there are “news” stories abouthow they bought a new house or went on holiday. Some sort of alien way that publicity generates its own income stream.

      If we’re talking about dunnokeyo’s kids, I suspect his daughter’s ouvre will be more interesting in 20 years than his son’s. Seemed more interesting than a lot of fresh-out-of-art-school stuff I’ve seen.

  3. Sacha 3
    13 October 2018 at 7:37 am

    About our dark side, and the psychology of conspiracy: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12140755

    New research suggests that people with certain personality traits and cognitive styles are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories.

    “These people tend to be more suspicious, untrusting, eccentric, needing to feel special, with a tendency to regard the world as an inherently dangerous place,” said Josh Hart, an associate professor at Union College in the US.

    “They are also more likely to detect meaningful patterns where they might not exist.

    • One Two 3.1
      13 October 2018 at 1:13 pm

      New research…

      Nah that’s just a rehash of the same theme which get published on what seems like an annual basis…

      The history of humanity up until the present moment consists of conspiracy from end to end…

      Traits such as, denial and limited thinking are, to name a few, some of the reasons for not understanding where conspiracy exists within the human story…

      Then it’s simply down to ‘what you believe’…

      • McFlock 3.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 2:35 pm

        So the findings are consistent with previous research? Good to know, lol.

        So if denial is a trait that prevents understanding of conspiracy theories, doesn’t your denial of consistent research findings about conspiracists mean that you might be less able to comprehend the workings of the world…

    • adam 3.2
      13 October 2018 at 3:06 pm

      *sigh* really this takes up your time.

      What I dislike about this debate is it makes if difficult when real conspiracies are afoot. It makes it harder to talk about.

      So in you mind Sacha the poor journalist who went into the Saudi embassy was not the victim of a conspiracy to get rid of him?

      • Dennis Frank 3.2.1
        13 October 2018 at 3:40 pm

        Yeah. Whereas it has long been true that conspiracy theorists make someone with critical faculties sceptical, those inclined to deny the existence of conspiracies are more likely to do so.

        Sceptics tend to have a critical view of evidence. For instance, you can’t concieve the existence of the dark side of the moon because sensory evidence normally can’t provide evidence that it exists. Luna’s phase-locked orbit shows us one side perpetually. Since we got spacecraft taking photos of the other side, we have evidence that it exists.

        The analogy with conspiracies is that they are designed to be invisible because success depends on that. Pattern detection is the normal method of ascertaining their existence but human nature then produces diversity of opinion is to whether circumstantial evidence is real or imaginary.

        • Incognito 3.2.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 5:40 pm

          Sensory evidence is not all that reliable because it needs to be processed in and by the brain and then interpreted in and against ‘reality’ as we perceive it.

          Regarding the dark side of the moon, there’s nothing wrong with deduction and logical reasoning to establish its existence. In any case, Pink Floyd’s good enough for me 😉

          • Dennis Frank 3.2.1.1.1
            13 October 2018 at 6:37 pm

            True, but think about how humans saw the moon for millennia, prior to science establishing the revolutionary view that it’s spherical. My point was that the universality of that experience of the unchanging face of the moon constituted reality for humans. Consensus on the sensory input basis for describing aspects of nature is more primal as well as more traditional and pan-cultural.

            Our western science-based view derived from theory is abstract. Unreal to others. Indigenous cultures go by what they share, and most of that derives from common sensory inputs.

            • Incognito 3.2.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2018 at 8:48 pm

              Our western science-based view derived from theory is abstract.

              I disagree. The roots of Western science are firmly in the experimental-empirical realm and this still is the case at present time. Scientific papers (studies) published in peer-reviewed science journals follow a strict (rigid) format of Title-Abstract-Introduction-Methods-Results-Discussion-References. The core element always is the experimental results. This extends to patents; ideas on their own cannot be patented.

              Logical/formal and rational reasoning is a characteristic (idiosyncrasy) of Western science but should be seen as an extension, if you like, of the sensory realm epitomised by “cogito, ergo sum”. Indeed, there are so-called formal sciences that are not based or reliant on experiments or empirical data, and which happen to be integral to empirical sciences.

              • Dennis Frank …
                15 October 2018 at 7:19 am

                Yes, the empirical practice of science does function as the organised extension of sensory input. Sounds like you’re reporting from your education: what was that? Mine was BSc in physics.

                Problem is, we just end up with an in-crowd view. For scientists, the abstract component of their belief system is grounded in practical experience. That doesn’t apply to anyone else. They just have the option of taking it on faith. Faith-based reasoning imports that alien scientific belief into their heads as an abstract notion.

                Even worse is that the same psychology applies to scientists in respect to any part of science that they haven’t proved to themselves from direct experience! So the general rule for humans is that reality is a social construction, and becomes so via consensus.

      • Sacha 3.2.2
        13 October 2018 at 8:48 pm

        “the poor journalist who went into the Saudi embassy was not the victim of a conspiracy to get rid of him?”

        A conspiracy theory is bigger than a plot like that. Think 9/11 alternative stories, etc. Interested me how the psychology might work.

    • greywarshark 3.3
      13 October 2018 at 7:40 pm

      Probably all those factors could explain the workings of Josh Hart’s mind!

  4. Cinny 4
    13 October 2018 at 8:57 am

    Is anyone else following the Jamal Khashoggi case?

    Crikey it’s getting macabre. Turkey claims it has audio of what happened in the Saudi embassy.

    Many media and business exec’s are now pulling out of the ‘Future Investment Initiative’ conference happening in Riyadh next week.

    Interesting times, ironic that it is happening in Turkey, as they are one of the worst countries for locking up journalists.

    Wondering how trump will handle it, selling weapons to the saudi’s is very lucrative for the US economy.

    Al Jazerra are doing a brilliant job covering the story.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-case-latest-updates-181010133542286.html

    • Ed 4.1
      13 October 2018 at 9:25 am

      Yes following the story .
      Thanks for telling us about al Jazeera’s coverage.
      Being from Qatar, they tend to shine a spotlight on Saudi, rather than avoid challenging the ruthless Riyadh regime.

    • SaveNZ 4.2
      13 October 2018 at 10:04 am

      yes following. Was pleased to see reaction against it and hopefully a message it is not OK to disappear people! Horrible.

    • joe90 4.3
      13 October 2018 at 11:17 am

      As tRump said yesterday, a non-citizen’s life wasn’t as important as a $110 billion weapons sale.

      The United States government in fact knows what happened to the missing man—and seems to have known something about his fate even before his disappearance. As reported by the Washington Post last night, “US intelligence intercepted communications of Saudi officials discussing a plan to capture” Khashoggi, adding:

      The Saudis wanted to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia and lay hands on him there, this person said. It was not clear whether the Saudis intended to arrest and interrogate Khashoggi or to kill him, or if the United States warned Khashoggi that he was a target.

      https://observer.com/2018/10/nsa-source-white-house-knew-jamal-khashoggi-danger/

      • Macro 4.3.1
        13 October 2018 at 11:49 am

        https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1050441660117737473

        There you have it, the formula: Kashoggi was not an American citizen, and Saudis pay Trump’s hotels in American dollars. Pay no mind to claims of autocrats murdering Virginia residents who work for the Post, their money is good here — says the most conflicted president in history

        Sums it up really.

        • joe90 4.3.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 5:28 pm

          I gets personal when Mohammed bin Salman has you and your family by the short and curlies.

          Donald Trump Jr. on Friday promoted a smear tying Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi to Osama bin Laden, retweeting a series of tweets meant to imply that the Saudi commentator, who has been missing since last week, supported Islamic terrorism.

          With President Trump apparently reluctant to punish Saudi Arabia over Khashoggi’s alleged murder after he entered the Saudi embassy in Istanbul, conservative pundits have been straining to provide excuses for U.S. inaction.

          Much of that effort has focused on claiming Khashoggi was a terrorist sympathizer, based on his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and career covering terrorist groups and leaders, including Bin Laden.

          The latest attack on Khashoggi’s reputation started Friday with Patrick Poole, a terrorism correspondent for conservative website PJ Media. Poole ran images from a 1988 article Khashoggi wrote showing Khashoggi holding a rocket-propelled grenade with fighters in Afghanistan opposing the Soviet Union.

          Khashoggi was among a number of journalists who interviewed Bin Laden in the 1980s and ’90s. But the picture and article, Poole claimed, was proof that Khashoggi was “tooling around Afghanistan with Osama bin Laden.”

          “He’s just a democrat reformer journalist holding a RPG with jihadists,” Poole tweeted.

          https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-jr-boosts-smear-tying-missing-journalist-jamal-khashoggi-to-islamic-terrorism/?via=twitter_page

    • Ed 4.4
      13 October 2018 at 3:53 pm

      George Galloway’s take

      “The BBC’s Frank Gardner says he thinks Jamal Khashoggi had a heart attack inside the Saudi consulate.
      If he did have a heart attack you have to ask what brought it on and why it required him to be chopped up into pieces and carried out of the consulate in cake boxes..”

      His opening monologue for his show this week was an insightful as ever.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBrurebHioQ

  5. OnceWasTim 5
    13 October 2018 at 9:28 am

    Colour me skeptical, but it seems GWRC are more interested trying to polish the turd than they are actually giving Wellingtonians what they want.
    As Simon Louisson says on https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/10/01/259842/the-american-consultants-behind-wellingtons-bus-nightmar
    “Walker’s confidence that all councils have to do is ride out the storm and everything will be all right has clearly had an impact on Regional Council chair Chris Laidlaw and CEO Greg Campbell, who have both staunchly backed the new system.”

    If they had any intention of making improvements to what is the multiple hub with spokes, we’d be seeing gradual and regular changes leading up to the December deadline.
    We’re not seeing that – merely a concession to make changes to a route 18 while the other problems remain.

    Walker is continuing with the line that the problem is with implementation rather than design. Once again, it’s more than that. It’s not only both route design and implementation, but in assuming the user requirements for it all were those of the Regional Council rather than the bus patrons themselves (that is of course, if indeed Walker actually based his design on a set of user requirements at all).

    When an outing from Mount Victoria to Constable Street which once would have taken 20-30 minutes turns into a 3 hour escapade; when services continue to disappear then reappear of boards; when a couple of school girls wanting to get from Constable Street to Courtenay Place end up on what they described as a “2 hour mish” and miss their appointments – I wish GWRC the best of luck in obtaing Wellingtonians acceptance of this complete bugger’s muddle.

    • Sacha 5.1
      13 October 2018 at 10:25 am

      “Walker is continuing with the line that the problem is with implementation rather than design.”

      In the interests of a discussion informed more broadly than by the one article you linked to ..

      Jarrett Walker writes: https://humantransit.org/2018/10/wellington-notes-on-an-nz-newsroom-article.html

      and RNZ story: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/368167/wellington-bus-network-consultant-defends-original-scheme

      • OnceWasTim 5.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 12:13 pm

        Yep, a lot of what Walker is saying in his defense against Louisson’s article suggests a lack of adequate consultation with the travelling public, so as I said the other day, it also suggests his route design was based on a set of GWRC user requirements rather than the travelling public’s user requirements.

        I guess we’ll have to wait till the December deadline given and see what improvements there are, Are they going to be another big bang implementation of change?

    • mikesh 5.2
      13 October 2018 at 10:38 am

      I have travelled frequently, under the new system, from Constable St to Courtenay Place, and have never experienced a “two hour mish”. Normally it takes about twenty minutes, with perhaps up to ten minutes waiting time. Clearly, what the two school girls experienced was an implementation problem rather than a systemic one. I have never travelled from Mt Victoria to Constable St, but I cannot see it taking three hours, ever under the new system.

      • OnceWasTim 5.2.1
        13 October 2018 at 12:05 pm

        You clearly have not experienced missing buses then. Everything was going via John Street and Taranaki Street. Someone told us we would have to walk down to the next stop in order to intersect with a service from Island Bay. There were 3 of them going to points north, One appeared on the board, then disappeared right up until the time is was a minute away (the one going to Johnsonville as opposed to Churton Park.
        And yes, as I mentioned the other day, what once would have taken me 30 mins maximum ended up taking nearly 3 hours. I’m pleased your experiences have been a bit better.
        The two school girls had come from near Newtown Park expecting to be able to get to COurtenay Place. Like me, evrything was going via John Street and Taranaki Street.

        So what number bus to you take when you catch the bus from Constable Street to Courtenay Place and at what time are you travelling? Obviously something was wrong because of the smiley faced “bus ambassador’ a couple of stops further north doing some PR to disgruntled passengers as the queues were building up.

        Poor implementation yes, but also route design and inadequate consultation beforehand with the travelling public

      • Kay 5.2.2
        13 October 2018 at 1:49 pm

        Of course, mikesh, under the old system there was a reasonably frequent direct route from Constable to Courtney in the form of the Lyall Bay/Karori No.3, and the half/hourly Strathmore/Khandallah 43/44 coming through from Kilbirnie. A well frequented route even off peak, so no transfer should even be necessary.

        But pleased to hear you don’t seem to be having any problems getting around, you’re clearly in the minority. The extreme risk of no-shows and long delays for transfers mean it’s not even safe for some of us to go out after dark anymore.

  8. Ed 8
    13 October 2018 at 10:32 am

    The latest insights on the Skripal affair from Craig Murray.

    “I have just received confirmation from the Metropolitan Police Press Bureau that both the European Arrest Warrant and Interpol Red Notice remain in the names of Boshirov and Petrov, with the caveat that both are probably aliases. Nothing has been issued in the name of Chepiga or Mishkin.

    As for Bellingcat’s “conclusive and definitive evidence”, Scotland Yard repeated to me this afternoon that their earlier statement on Bellingcat’s allegations remains in force: “we are not going to comment on speculation about their identities.”

    It is now a near certainty that Boshirov and Petrov are indeed fake identities. If the two were real people, it is inconceivable that by now their identities would not have been fully established with details of their history, lives, family and milieu. I do not apologise for exercising all due caution, rather than enthusiasm, about a narrative promoted to increase international tension with Russia, but am now convinced Petrov and Boshirov were not who they claimed.

    But that is not to say that the information provided by NATO Photoshoppers’R’Us (Ukraine Branch) on alternative identities is genuine, either. I maintain the same rational scepticism exhibited by Scotland Yard on this, and it is a shame that the mainstream media neither does that, nor fairly reflects Scotland Yard’s position in their reporting.”

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/10/metropolitan-police-on-chepiga-and-mishkin/

    • Stuart Munro 8.1
      13 October 2018 at 12:00 pm

      I expect that Scotland Yard’s skepticism has a rather different quality to Murray’s, not being motivated by a desire to exculpate Russia so much as an understanding of the role of identification evidence in court – an unlikely event at this time.

      It’s a reasonably robust identification, including expert photoanalysis by a professor Ugail from the University of Bradford, and material from witnesses establishing where Mishkin was brought up and educated.

      https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/10/09/full-report-skripal-poisoning-suspect-dr-alexander-mishkin-hero-russia/

      • Ed 8.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 12:05 pm

        I see your source is Bellingcat again.
        Do you ever use sources not funded by US regime change agency NED (National Endowment for Democracy ?

        • Stuart Munro 8.1.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 12:11 pm

          Your post referred to Bellingcat.

          It seemed only reasonable that readers should see what it was that Murray was talking about.

          They are quite capable of judging the quality of Bellingcat’s content without your or Murray’s, or for that matter my, assistance.

        • joe90 8.1.1.2
          13 October 2018 at 12:24 pm

          funded by US regime change agency NED (National Endowment for Democracy ?

          Proof?. Nah, of course not.

          Because a coordinated campaign of defamation and harassment doesn’t need proof, just talking points.

          Eh, Ed?

      • joe90 8.1.2
        13 October 2018 at 12:14 pm

        Meticulous, transparent and sourced.

        Little wonder the Russian ambassador to the UK mentioned Bellingcat 15 times.

        Russia's Ambassador to the UK, @Amb_Yakovenko, has some very important things to share about Bellingcat today. pic.twitter.com/qkbi3nTxWc— Bellingcat (@bellingcat) October 12, 2018

        But he’s full of it.

        The Russian Ambassador to the UK accused Bellingcat of being an arm of the “British deep state”. This is the moment I challenged him to prove that: pic.twitter.com/73RHMHDkU7— Alistair Bunkall (@AliBunkallSKY) October 12, 2018

      • mauī 8.1.3
        13 October 2018 at 2:16 pm

        About as robust as me saying I can identify them with the help of some volunteers. Then make a document with some screenshot pictures, throw in some anonymous sources who noone else can verify and bingo I have proof or something….

  9. Dennis Frank 9
    13 October 2018 at 11:37 am

    Prof Jane Kelsey on Trump’s trade policy & implications for the mid-terms: “NAFTA-II will play well in the states that Trump captured in 2016 and is much more important electorally than me-too and Kavanagh. Of course, other factors will affect the pending mid-term election and the 2020 presidential race. But Trump’s new trade strategy will work for him.

    “There is enough in NAFTA-II for the unions, social movements and Democrats in Congress to reject it. But being anti-Trump is not enough. When I was in Washington several months ago talking to Democrats it was clear they have no alternative agenda. Obama’s pro-TPPA stance divided them. Now Trump has stolen some of their platforms and many of their constituents. They desperately need to develop a new progressive alternative agenda and strategy, but seemed paralysed.

    “There are crucial lessons here for us. The official response, most recently from Jacinda Ardern in New York, is to defend the ‘rules-based multilateral trading system’ in the face of Trump’s ‘protectionism’. That is a false dichotomy and misrepresents the challenge Trump poses.

    “The choice is not between the unilateralism of a populist autocrat who is supported by a supine Congress, which is in turn captive of the world’s most powerful corporations, on one hand, and the failed neoliberal model, brewed in the WTO and polished in the TPPA on the other. A few clip-on statements on gender and small and medium enterprises is not a progressive alternative. We need to grasp the nettle and build momentum for something that is genuinely new and works for us all.”
    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/10/09/lessons-for-the-left-from-nafta-mark-ii/

    Kelsey’s intellectual dishonesty is evident here, despite her final sentence being absolutely correct and the crucial necessity for the political left. She does not acknowledge that the situation has been unchanged since the failure of the New Left in the early seventies. There has been absolutely no attempt by leftist intellectuals to learn from that failure – nor to explain why it has persisted since. Delineation of the deep political psychology driving this leftist denial of reality is the essential precursor to making real political progress.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1
      13 October 2018 at 12:37 pm

      Hi Frank – interested in the point of view presented in your last paragraph – could you describe what you mean by “the New Left that failed in the early seventies”?

      I’m curious as to why there might have been “absolutely no attempt by leftist intellectuals to learn from that failure”, and would like to investigate that for myself – I just need a starting point, i.e. a synopsis of that failure (or a link to some background reading.)

      • Incognito 9.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 12:48 pm

        Yes please!

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.2
        13 October 2018 at 3:21 pm

        It’s the lack of that analytic commentary that is primary evidence of the failure. All I can do for you is to provide the historical context from the basis of my personal experience – I accept that my subjective view cannot be representative of any general view. I can cite Tim Shadbolt’s first autobiography (Bullshit & Jellybeans) as an alternative egocentric history of the era.

        I’ll just summarise the key points of the history in terms of a. the morphing of the sixties rebels into young adulthood in the counter-culture, and b. how I saw the evolution of the leftist political strand of that. The relevance of Shadbolt is that he became the universally-acknowledged avatar of the protest movement whilst bridging the divide between counter-culture & leftist politics in Aotearoa.

        First key point is that the rebellion was generational across western civilisation, so we just did the local manifestation of that simutaneous transformation. Western countries began with almost total conformity to traditional social norms, and ended up with acceptance of personal non-conformity in a context of broad social diversity, in which the minority-rights movements emerged at the forefront of social transformation.

        The second key point is that the New Left emerged in the sixties via non-conformity in some respects, yet bound by traditional leftist political thought in other respects. For instance, the avatar globally was Che Guevara: the message was still that political power came out of the barrel of a gun. The contradiction between that role model and the alternative role model (Martin Luther King) could hardly be more stark. Many of us knew (with a gnosis extremely deep) that non-violence was the only credible way forward for progressive politics. Jesus had taught it. Mahatma Gandhi also. Te Whiti – but he was unknown to us then.

        So when the leftists launched their version of the global youth revolution in ’68, you can see why despite the continual headlines in various countries, it failed to get traction even in the rebel generation! Keith Richards & Mick Jagger summed it up that year in Street Fighting Man: https://genius.com/The-rolling-stones-street-fighting-man-lyrics

        At university I was surrounded by the ferment, and got curious enough to go & see Shadbolt speaking in Albert Park the following year. It was a stunning revelation. My first wife & I went about half a dozen times, through into 1970. I had no idea, like most of the cultural rebels, that politics could be anything other than a totally boring turn-off. He was a brilliant orator, speaking stream of consciousness with no notes for over an hour each time, holding the couple of hundred folk seated on the grass around him spellbound.

        Then the movie Easy Rider came out, and we realised our cultural rebel stance could easily get us killed despite being apolitical. So I had to shift into a more serious polarisation against the establishment. I joined the SRC (University of Auckland students representatives), read all the news about the revolution in Craccuum, Canta, Critic & various subversive magazines, hung out with a few lefists & they told me about the Revolution Bookshop downtown so I went & pushed my way thro throngs buzzing with intense conversation.

        Yet by ’71 I’d read enough about socialism to be wondering why it was so devoid of intellectual content. I got that the writers all believed it was a better way, but couldn’t find any reason why. By then the yippies were the latest trend and I agreed that street theatre was a good way to dramatise issues to the masses, bypassing establishment media control. I was impressed with their applied psychology, and the spearhead effect of catalysis they were generating. Yet the back to the land movement that also began in ’68 was clearly getting more traction than the leftists and the Whole Earth Catalogue had way more mana than Jerry Rubin’s Do It or Abbie Hoffman’s Steal This Book.

        Psychedelic drugs were a mid-sixties fashion trend that impacted mostly via pop music, snowballing via the underground. Pop deepened into rock and the sub-culture grew, but the political connection remained ephemeral. Still a minority, even in my generation: the rebels had expanded from about 3% to around 10% at the start of the seventies. Communes and crashpads were the lifestyle choice, but as folks coupled up the need to earn a living to support a family put pressure on to adopt traditional dependency on the capitalist system. Those able to forge alternative lifestyles that were viable remained a fortunate few.

        The way I handled that compromise may have been typical. Inspiration from the avante garde. Drug usage, controlled to shift consciousness without losing competence. De-conditioning first, then proactive self-transformation. A circle of friends equally anti-establishment, fostering the counter-culture while doing pragmatism to enable survival. Demonstrating in solidarity with the leftists. Investigating the ancient wisdom, to see what could be recycled in the context of contemporary society. Learning various techniques for improving the prospects for self & others.

        I’d sum it up as discovery of how to live a fulfilling life while being part of the solution to endemic social problems. One must be the change one wants to see in the world. It’s the role-model effect. Others evaluate what you say in comparison to what you do, so even if you start out as a trend-follower (as I did) there’s a development trajectory along which your expertise gathers & you may end up a trend-setter. Particularly when few others do so, this can be for the good of all. Individualism and collectivism are poles between which societies can oscilate, and we now need leaders who can do collectivism on the basis of the commons. Not on the basis of state compulsion, which was the prior form it took – that produced genocide.

        • Incognito 9.1.2.1
          13 October 2018 at 9:58 pm

          That is quite a story, Dennis. Why not write it up as or for a Post?

          Your last paragraph resonated particularly strong with me.

          • Dennis Frank 9.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2018 at 5:44 am

            Because it’s just a personal view. I’ve done similarly here http://www.alternativeaotearoa.org/ in an attempt to create a basis for collective endeavour, but that remains a work in progress – limited by other demands on my time.

            In respect of the zeitgeist, I feel like a surfer awaiting the next wave. Like-minded others are more conspicuous by their absence than presence. In this site, for instance, passive commentators vastly outnumber proactive generators of a positive alternative. Shifting from impotent commentary to becoming a player in the game is only possible for folks when they are ready, willing and able. Circumstances usually prevent those who are willing from getting ready and actually using their ability to make change happen.

            There’s a similar problem with the left in general and the Greens in particular: the constraint of democracy usually limits the former to protest mode, and the latter painted themselves into a leftist corner instead of operating from a position of strength in the political center. To finesse the impasse, enough people must decide to collaborate on a positive alternative. Not just complain.

            • Incognito 9.1.2.1.1.1
              14 October 2018 at 11:26 am

              Thanks Dennis, for sharing your personal views here; I’ll have a look for your posts in that link.

              In this site, for instance, passive commentators vastly outnumber proactive generators of a positive alternative.

              In any social forum the majority is silent or passive and only a fraction of the users are active participants. Which is just as well 😉

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture)

              This rule has been applied to internet forums but I think it is generally true for any forum, community, or social context.

              Your comment is tempting me to write a post …

        • Carolyn_Nth 9.1.2.2
          14 October 2018 at 11:44 am

          gee, Dennis, that really is a highly personal and subjective reading of the history.

          You’ve left out so much.

          Some like Shadbolt were sell outs. But then we still have Sue Bradford, John Minto, Hone Harawira… and more

          And as someone who was politically active in the periods you covered. i never realised that Che was THE poster boy of the left. there were many others.

          And the left failure has been more in the 5 Eyes countries, and not so much in France, northern Europe, South America, etc.

          I don’t like the word, “Leftists” Why not just “the left” or “left wingers”. It makes it sound like you really dislike the left generally.

          PS: and you use this skewed version of history to criticise Kelsey for “intellectual dishonesty”.

          I’d say Kelsey is spot on.

          Kelsey is spot on with her analysis of the current NZ government on trade. She is not responsible for the soft neoliberals in our current, nominally left, government.

          There has been plenty of in depth analysis of the left internationally in recent decades.

          • Dennis Frank 9.1.2.2.1
            14 October 2018 at 12:07 pm

            I did actually retract my criticism yesterday evening after checking her age (9.2.1). Re leftists, I wouldn’t have marched with them or made friends with some if it was dislike of them collectively as people. My critique targets the belief system, and how that influences them into self-defeating political behaviour. That’s why I have declared here in several comments that we need a suitably positive political and economic alternative from the left.

            Re “we still have Sue Bradford, John Minto, Hone Harawira… and more”, so what? People dedicated to protest as lifestyle tend to generate a reputation for negativity. A large swathe of voters seeking a positive alternative want to be represented by folks ready, willing & able to provide that.

            Re Che, it was the fact that his image became an icon. The political symbolism generated as a result boosted his historical impact relative to those others. Problem was the martyrdom: people prefer to follow winners, not losers.

    • Morrissey 9.2
      13 October 2018 at 1:31 pm

      Kelsey’s intellectual dishonesty is evident here

      ????

      No it’s not. You’re taking your talking points from Chris Trotter.

      • Dennis Frank 9.2.1
        13 October 2018 at 6:52 pm

        I just checked her age and I’m being unfair to her; she was too young to be aware of the New Left back then, wasn’t even born!! Can we reasonably expect a law professor to learn from history? Of course not, so I retract my criticism!

        Trotter’s essay is so good I must give him nine out of ten (years since that last happened). Perhaps a kindly friend dropped a tab into his cuppa tea – there’s at least a couple of profound insights there that I wouldn’t have thought him capable of generating. http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/10/donald-trump-and-art-of-populist.html

  10. cleangreen 10
    13 October 2018 at 12:50 pm

    Apart from Simon Bridges being out there selling rights to have guns, I hope he is also driving on our third rate potholed roads now too!!!!!!

    Simon Bridges is the one who is pushing rail out of service everywhere, and expanding 63 tonne road freight heavy truck use now.

    So every day we here of another car driver killed under a truck Simon Bridges is killing us all as you me or a family member will be next.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107786920/Crashes-claim-three-lives-in-deadly-five-hours-on-North-Island-roads

    “Police are at the scene on on State Highway 1 near Mahurangi West Rd, near Puhoi, north of Auckland where a truck and two other vehicles crashed about 10am on Friday.

    Police said one person died at the scene, while three others were injured, two seriously. SH1 is closed at the scene and diversions are being put in place at Warkworth and Silverdale.”

    That is why we need to take half the trucks off the roads and use rail again as we did for generations before us.

  12. SaveNZ 12
    13 October 2018 at 2:59 pm

    Grenfell refurb details ‘kept secret to protect commercial interests’

    “In September 2014, almost three years before the disaster that claimed 72 lives, Ed Daffarn made a request under the Freedom of Information Act to see the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation monthly minutes about the refurbishment project, including input from Rydon and the architecture firm Studio E. The request was refused because release might “prejudice the commercial interests of the contractor”.

    On Wednesday Daffarn told the inquiry into the disaster that the minutes could have revealed that two months earlier zinc cladding had been swapped for combustible plastic-filled cladding, which leaked emails have shown saved the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea almost £300,000.

    “If we had seen that they had replaced non-combustible materials with combustible materials we could have publicised it and campaigned against it,” he said. “I didn’t have the information I needed to know just how unsafe our homes really were. The thought that if I had been given this information I could have done something about it continues to cause me anguish.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/10/grenfell-survivor-says-firefighters-had-to-abandon-rescue-of-disabled-father

    • SaveNZ 12.1
      13 October 2018 at 3:04 pm

      Secrets and Lies the above is a tragic reason why the public should have full information about all planning, building and renovations in NZ.

      (Remind us why Phil Goff’s personal 1 million dollar feasibility study into the white elephant stadium was so secret is had to be redacted even from his own councillors?)

      Considering Pike River and the CTV building, as well as the Kaipara council, it is imperative that all documents in particular ones that are paid for by the public should be completely transparent including all the costs, people involved and what they are planning or advocating. That way everything is above board.

      There is growing interest amongst councils and corporates to cut out the public. Funny enough costs escalate and things get worse for the public when that happens.

      Just look at Auckland Transport.

      • SaveNZ 12.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 3:17 pm

        Also Auckland Transport woes, spreding to Wellington by the amount of complaints on this site.

  13. greywarshark 13
    13 October 2018 at 5:49 pm

    Earlier I was listening to someone representing glyophosate. We are being sole these commercial things to control everything – it is best, there is no other way, the world needs food. Business will make money from us from cradle to grave is the new slogan, not your own government helping you from start to finish.

    I just looked up weed canadian fleabane on Google

    First up three images with videos from Farms.com and BASFagSolutions.

    The public has to realise that we need to make a deliberate decision to find the best information and choose to avoid the use of agrichemicals until unavoidable.

  14. greywarshark 14
    13 October 2018 at 5:53 pm

    What has happened to this site? I see so much stupid argumentation by RW and those who don’t want to see it remain as a high level political discussion blog. Where is everyone with something worth saying, why is it dominated by pinheadsm and who attempts to control the crap or are we all blinded by the idea of ‘free’ speech?

  15. Ed 15
    13 October 2018 at 6:35 pm

    “This Is Neoliberalism (2018)
    If you’ve ever wanted to understand what neoliberalism is, this is the video series for you.

    Part 1: Introducing the Invisible Ideology
    Neoliberalism is an economic ideology that exists within the framework of capitalism. Over four decades ago, neoliberalism became the dominant economic paradigm of global society. In part 1, we’ll trace the history of neoliberalism, starting with a survey of neoliberal philosophy and research, a historical reconstruction of the movement pushing for neoliberal policy solutions, witnessing the damage that neoliberalism did to its first victims in the developing world, and then charting neoliberalism’s infiltration of the political systems of the United States and the United Kingdom. Learn how neoliberalism is generating crises for humanity at an unprecedented rate.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myH3gg5o0t0

    • David Mac 15.1
      13 October 2018 at 6:47 pm

      Isn’t it simple Ed? So many words.

      Neoliberalism = Business operating without enough regard for the stakeholders.

      I think you enjoy getting swept up in information maelstroms.

      It needn’t be that way. How we should go about adjusting stakeholders’ stakes and at the same time win elections is a much more interesting conversation.

      • Dennis Frank 15.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 7:17 pm

        True. I presume the neo bit was just tacked on to signify 19th century economic liberalism (British) was being recycled in contemporary context. Not to imply any relation to the American political usage of liberalism as establishment leftist political thought.

        Conversation about stakeholder design didn’t happen under Blair because Labour was intent on faking triangulation. It would have to reposition the left as co-determinant of outcomes (rather than passive recipients of paternalist crumb-dropping by the patriarchy). The first step for the left would be acceptance of enterprise culture.

        After waiting 47 years I no longer expect the left to prove capable of reinventing itself. Progress seems now only feasible on the basis of common cause between centrists & leftists. It would have to start by restoring the commons as the primary conceptual framework, identifying nature as the basis of that, and equity in our economic relation to nature deriving from that.

        From that basis, deployment of Mondragon and other successful cooperatives as examples of stakeholder-driven enterprise would have to induce a consensus around the general design principles to use. I tried pushing for this type of stakeholder design in the early years of the Green Party (economic policy working group led by Jeanette Fitzsimons) with limited success. A radical advocacy has become less favoured in the Greens since, due to the pressure to compromise that democracy imposes. Business as usual noticeably failing is the only way to reopen minds, so we wait for that…

        • David Mac 15.1.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 7:33 pm

          Hi Dennis, I think there is a trend towards a more encompassing incorporation of stakeholders. We can’t let up but when I listen to the generations behind me, I hear the noise of a more inclusive future.

          We’re at the stage of: “Hey I was born here, this is my family’s home and I’m not sure if I’m ok with you putting a swimming pool’s worth of our fresh water into plastic bottles each day and shipping it offshore,”

          Not so long ago we were dancing a happy jig “Yahooo an offshore company wants to sink 5 million into a business punt in provincial NZ.”

    • mauī 15.2
      13 October 2018 at 6:51 pm

      Ed, thank you.

      • Ed 15.2.1
        13 October 2018 at 6:57 pm

        Thank you.
        Nice to have a friendly response after the levels of abuse I’ve copped from Stuart Munro.

        • David Mac 15.2.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 7:05 pm

          He only talks to people he likes in that tone.

          That sort of language that we only get away with when it’s directed at a pal. A stranger would bop us on the nose.

          All of the regulars here add colour to the place, no matter how much they get under our skin. Viva la Ed.

        • Stuart Munro 15.2.1.2
          13 October 2018 at 7:23 pm

          Just remember – keep endorsing Putin and Assad and you’ll get plenty more of it.

          I notice you have doubled down on your stupid over Bellingcat, as we might expect from the tireless apologist of a murderous dictator. I suppose Ahmadinejad would represent a step up from Ed.

          You have learned nothing from your scolding and obviously need a lot more.

          • Ed 15.2.1.2.1
            13 October 2018 at 7:28 pm

            You are a bully boy.

            [Warnings all round. I am normally very relaxed about what happens on Open Mike and on this site but these flame wars are doing my and others heads in. Tone it down – MS]

            • Stuart Munro 15.2.1.2.1.1
              13 October 2018 at 7:34 pm

              Yup – I’ve no tolerance for fascists Ed, none at all.

              So wise up, or fuck off.

  16. greywarshark 16
    13 October 2018 at 7:31 pm

    I’m putting this on at the end just to allow it to go up to No. 16 as my comments seem to float off up there. So we will see where I fly to now.

    • OnceWasTim 16.1
      13 October 2018 at 7:42 pm

      A few days break and a good book, perhaps some gardening or a long walk. When you come back there’ll be the usual RWNJs (some worth a laugh), as well as others trying to prove how considerably considerably more left wing they are than thou.
      Then there’s still a few worth following through the dross.
      Commenting isn’t mandatory – often best not to.

  17. greywarshark 17
    13 October 2018 at 7:32 pm

    Okay done. Does this stay at 18 or 19 or… fly off somewhere else?

    Curious.

    • Bill 17.1
      13 October 2018 at 9:57 pm

      I shunted Morrisseys bullshit off to the bottom of Open Mike some time around 11 O’Clock this morning. The effect of that is that any header comment will come in above Morrissey’s on the thread (look at the time stamps).

      Any response beneath Morrissey’s header comment will fall into place.

  18. joe90 18
    13 October 2018 at 9:40 pm

    How’s them Kiwis!

    • Morrissey 18.1
      14 October 2018 at 5:50 pm

      Dimwits played in virtually the same uniform as the opposition team.

      I note that the women have a few more brain cells, and wore striking gold tops, like the Wallabies.

  19. Morrissey 19
    13 October 2018 at 11:04 pm

    Blither Watch
    No. 1: Stuart Munro

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-10-2018/#comment-1534617

    Blither Watch is an occasional series dedicated to compiling some of the more ridiculous ranting by people struggling on the blogosphere. It is compiled by Hector Stoop and Serena Sopwith-Fotherington, for Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    Special thanks for the sterling work in this case by Drowsy M. Kram.

    [Sorry Morrissey this is just going to flame things. Argue the policies. Do not attack commenters. Final warning – MS]

    • Ed 19.1
      13 October 2018 at 11:07 am

      One of the most abusive and deranged rants ever seen on this site.

      Remember Stuart knows more than

      Robert Fisk,
      Glenn Greenwald,
      Jeremy Scahill,
      Nicky Hager,
      John Stephenson,
      John Pilger,
      George Galloway,
      Patrick Cockburn,
      Seamus Milne,
      Naom Chomsky and Craig Murray

      He knows because Bellingcat told him so.

      • Morrissey 19.1.1
        13 October 2018 at 11:13 am

        Someone on this site—I think it was our friend Stuart—slammed me for citing a “weird” site. The site was Noam Chomsky’s.

        • Stuart Munro 19.1.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 11:17 am

          You never did cite it, Morrissey the Liar.

          I’m still waiting for your link in which you “prove” that Britain funded ISIS.

          Try hard not to lie Morrissey – it’s shameful in grownups.

          • Morrissey 19.1.1.1.1
            13 October 2018 at 11:23 am

            ISIS and Al Qaeda and Al Nusra have been funded and diplomatically supported by the U.S., the U.K., Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E. and France, as well as minor vassal states like Australia. Unless you are utterly determined to ignore that fact, you know that as well as everybody else on this mostly excellent forum. Your demand that I “prove” the universally known is simply nonsense. I’m also not going to cite for you evidence that today is Saturday, or that the sun came up this morning.

            Your tactic of endless time-wasting mixed with personal abuse is understandable, of course, but don’t expect me or anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature to get sucked in to your games.

            • Stuart Munro 19.1.1.1.1.1
              13 October 2018 at 11:34 am

              Links please Morrissey the Liar.

              Real links – and they had better be adamantine given the ambitious nature of your assertion.

      • Stuart Munro 19.1.2
        13 October 2018 at 11:15 am

        Ed, the fellow who knows even less than George Galloway and Craig Murray 🙂

        Ed, the constant dupe of and apologist for Assad’s and Putin’s warcrimes. If he had a brain, or a conscience, his shame would drown him.

        • Morrissey 19.1.2.1
          13 October 2018 at 11:17 am

          Have you read Drowsy M. Kram’s compilation of your Leighton Smith-calibre ranting, Stuart?

          Have you NO shame?

          • Stuart Munro 19.1.2.1.1
            13 October 2018 at 11:28 am

            I am not ashamed for calling ED out for his lies and support of murderous dictatorships. I shall do so until he desists.

            When will you resile from or support your lie about the UK funding ISIS Morrissey? We are waiting with bated breath.

            When will you resile from or support your lie that those who question Ed’s rants are motivated by a desire to send others to die Morrissey? I know you have no more credibility than a rag in the wind but you really can’t talk about truth or shame until you’ve fessed up, my little cabbage.

    • Stuart Munro 19.2
      13 October 2018 at 11:20 am

      You won’t let it rest will you Morrissey the Liar?

      Now about that lie that those who rebut Ed’s fantasies have an overwhelming urge to send other people to die. Are you ready to retract it yet?

      Or is all your tottering edifice of bullshit so fragile that a single truth will bring it all down?

      • Morrissey 19.2.1
        13 October 2018 at 11:24 am

        You’ve been caught out. Time to rest in the pavilion, and lick your wounds.

        • Stuart Munro 19.2.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 11:31 am

          Actually, no, Morrissey the Liar.

          You and your stormtrooper couldn’t catch a cold, much less apprehend the truth of a complex geopolitical situation.

          Now about your lies Morrissey. Do the UK fund ISIS. Let’s see your “proof” Morrissey.

          You’re big on noise but light on proof, Morrissey the Liar.

          • David Mac 19.2.1.1.1
            13 October 2018 at 3:18 pm

            Morrisey and Ed aren’t lying, it suits their mindset to believe what they do. The Jehovah Witness folk that call on me aren’t lying, they believe with all their hearts. But gee, I struggle to climb onboard….Where were all these people when I was selling dodgy secondhand cars?

            • Ed 19.2.1.1.1.1
              13 October 2018 at 3:19 pm

              Is Sy Hersch lying?

              • David Mac …
                13 October 2018 at 3:31 pm

                I can see you in this one Ed, only 300,000 kilometres and your new Toyota Cavalier comes with that renowned Toyota reliability.

                I don’t need to click on your copious loaded links Ed. I already know 2 big hetrosexual Russian guys don’t say “Hey I know, lets go and trudge through the snow in Salisbury this weekend.”

              • Stuart Munro …
                13 October 2018 at 3:43 pm

                I don’t follow him Ed – the only thing of his I’ve seen was his piece on Bellingcat that you posted, which did not cover him in glory.

                You could analyse some of his content, check whether he supports his claims or is proven true or false over time. There is a news reliability map https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-biased-is-your-news-source-you-probably-wont-agree-with-this-chart-2018-02-28

                And there is probably some kind of rating maintained somewhere for individual journalists.

                • Ed …
                  13 October 2018 at 3:48 pm

                  I see the BBC is ion the green rectangle as ‘news.’
                  So ‘MarketWatch’s graph itself is not reliable!

                  The BBC has shown itself to be simply an arm of the British state propaganda machine.
                  This documentary ‘London Calling’ shows the BBC’s bias during the Scottish referendum.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQYuLUAbyw

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    13 October 2018 at 3:54 pm

                    It’s not free from bias Ed, it’s merely better than the rest.

                    Reuters is better.

                    Now check where your goto pundits sit.

                    • Ed …
                      13 October 2018 at 3:56 pm

                      How is Bellingcat and Snopes placed?

                      I don’t see Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn on the list, my two favourite journalists on Syria.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    13 October 2018 at 4:12 pm

                    Some things Ed, you may have to do yourself.

                    This chart is from a US perspective, and mainly concerned with larger news sources. I imagine that the BBC, being free of some of the influences that compromise local US sources, is pretty good there – the anti-Corbyn stuff wasn’t produced for US audiences for example.

                    No doubt someone is studying or has studied individual reporter reliability, see if you can find it.

                    And if you can’t maybe you should build one – I can think of a few NZ media ‘personalities’ whose objectivity could be measured fruitfully.

                    I’m not sure about Bellingcat, but Snopes rates pretty highly, however much the fringe may detest it.

              • McFlock …
                13 October 2018 at 3:43 pm

                Does “Sy” actually say what you think “Sy” says?

            • Stuart Munro 19.2.1.1.1.2
              13 October 2018 at 3:34 pm

              I think they may be in two minds.

              You can see that Morrissey knows he can’t substantiate his ISIS claim, and that his position is untenable, but he doesn’t seem to have a template for a graceful climb down.

              This makes him pretty angry, but I’m not inclined to let him off the hook and spell it out for him, because he started the day by trying to chase me.

              Looking into the issue, these simplistic positions are pretty absurd, there are over 40 distinct groups identifying as the Free Syrian Army, and they split or merge with some frequency. And these are by no means the only rebel forces in play.

              When we see the noisy crowd discussing the character of distinct groups and unique populations like the Yazidis we may conclude that there is more to their assertions than sound and fury.

              • David Mac …
                13 October 2018 at 3:46 pm

                Pulling them up requires more than an accusation that sticks, it will take shifting a mindset.

                The prize ain’t worth the fight mate.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  13 October 2018 at 4:03 pm

                  It’s not only a fight.

                  Imagine if a few of these opinionistas actually took their advocacy into a useful direction. That’s what the Bellingcat model is about – harnessing concerned citizens so that truth is not a casualty of the war.

                  Research is powerful – imagine what the impact of comprehensive housing, poverty, freshwater habitat destruction or foreign purchase data would have been on the last government.

                  • Ed …
                    13 October 2018 at 4:13 pm

                    “Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. He was the subject of a BBC piece on 27 September 2018.[1] Robert Parry termed Bellingcat’s analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an amateurish [and] anti-Russian… fraud”.“[2] Another commentator claimed that Higgins has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine: “It’s not so much ‘Bellingcat’ as ‘smell a rat’.”[3]”

                    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat

                    • Ed …
                      13 October 2018 at 4:21 pm

                      More from that article destroying the claims of Bellingcat to be independent.

                      “What Bellingcat does have is a track record of ‘shilling for the security services’. Bellingcat claims its purpose is to clear up fake news, yet has been entirely opaque about the real source of its so-called documents.

                      “MI6 have almost 40 officers in Russia, running hundreds of agents. The CIA has a multiple of that. They pool their information. Both the UK and US have large visa sections whose major function is the analysis of Russian passports, their types and numbers and what they tell about the individual.

                      “We are to believe that Boshirov and Petrov were GRU agents whose identity was plainly obvious from their passports, who had no believable cover identities, but that neither the visa department nor MI6 (which two cooperate closely and all the time) knew they were giving visas to GRU agents. Yet this information was readily available to Bellingcat?”[13]

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      13 October 2018 at 4:28 pm

                      OK – Now how about you go through this piece and check the validity of the assertions.

                      And, you might want to check the confidence rating of wikispooks.

                      Bellingcat material is published by major news organizations because it has proven itself reliable.

                      As for your second piece

                      “Yet this information was readily available to Bellingcat?”

                      If Murray were only a little more thorough he would have noticed that Bellingcat have a rather vigorous Russian partner organization called Insider.

                      If I were to hazard a guess about Insider’s staffing, I imagine disaffected former journalists would be abundant – journalism having taken something of a downturn in Russia since Putin ascended to the presidency.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      13 October 2018 at 6:55 pm

                      The thing you need to bear in mind, Ed, is that you really don’t know anything about Bellingcat, and that people like Craig Murray are very properly reviled for propagandizing for the despotic Putin regime.

                      Before you go running to sites like wikispooks, you should do your own homework, so that you don’t end up copying and pasting untenable nonsense.

                      You should have started here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingcat

                      or maybe here (it’s a TEDx)
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mozxTk3Brqw

                    • Ed …
                      13 October 2018 at 7:08 pm

                      Robert Parry was an American investigative journalist. He was best known for his role in covering the Iran-Contra affair for the Associated Press (AP) and Newsweek, including breaking the Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare (CIA manual provided to the Nicaraguan contras) and the CIA involvement in Contra cocaine trafficking in the U.S. scandal in 1985.

                      He was awarded the George Polk Award for National Reporting in 1984 and the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard’s Nieman Foundation in 2015.

                      He wrote this in 2015

                      “The Dutch investigation into the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine last July has failed to uncover conclusive proof of precisely who was responsible for the deaths of the 298 passengers and crew but is expected to point suspicions toward the ethnic Russian rebels, fitting with the West’s long-running anti-Russian propaganda campaign.

                      A source who has been briefed on the outlines of the investigation said some U.S. intelligence analysts have reached a contrary conclusion and place the blame on “rogue” elements of the Ukrainian government operating out of a circle of hard-liners around one of Ukraine’s oligarchs. Yet, according to this source, the U.S. analysts will demur on the Dutch findings, letting them stand without public challenge.

                      Throughout the Ukraine crisis, propaganda and “information warfare” have overridden any honest presentation of reality – and the mystery around the MH-17 disaster has now slipped into that haze of charge and counter-charge. Many investigative journalists, including myself, have been rebuffed in repeated efforts to get verifiable proof about the case or even informational briefings.

                      In that sense, the MH-17 case stands as an outlier to the usual openness that surrounds inquiries into airline disasters. The Obama administration’s behavior has been particularly curious, with its rush to judgment five days after the July 17, 2014 shoot-down, citing sketchy social media posts to implicate the ethnic Russian rebels and indirectly the Russian government but then refusing requests for updates.”

                      https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:MH-17_Slips_into_propaganda_fog

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

    • Sacha 19.3
      13 October 2018 at 1:09 pm

      Put it away, you pathetic creature.

      • Morrissey 19.3.1
        13 October 2018 at 1:30 pm

        ?????

        Do you endorse Mr. Munro’s obscenity-larded tirades?

        • Sacha 19.3.1.1
          13 October 2018 at 1:41 pm

          If you are this fond of digging, take up gardening. You and a few others are wrecking this discussion space.

          • Morrissey 19.3.1.1.1
            13 October 2018 at 1:56 pm

            Do you endorse those tirades?

            How am I “wrecking” this space? Do I swear at people? Do I use foul language? Do I accuse anyone of being an apologist for Russia or indulge in other such offensive ad hominem nonsense?

            Is it offensive to you to see someone challenged over such things?

            But, of course, you were one of those hapless naïfs who warmly welcomed Matthew Hooton on to Russell Brown’s site to “pay tribute” to Nelson Mandela by comparing him to Thatcher and Reagan.

            That should always be remembered by anyone who takes the time to consider anything you say—and especially any advice you hand out.

            [Feck it. Morrissey you are in moderation. Argue points. Do not attack commenters – MS]

            • Bewildered 19.3.1.1.1.1
              13 October 2018 at 2:22 pm

              Stuart Munro arguements are credible, yours and your slave boy Ed dog collar and all with his daily appeal to dubious authorities ( including a cat lover) that he puts on dieity status daily are,been nice, entertaining at best

              • Morrissey …
                13 October 2018 at 2:23 pm

                You’re just not someone I respect. I’ve ripped your wings off in the past; don’t feel like wasting my time repeating that exercise.

                • Bewilderd …
                  13 October 2018 at 2:40 pm

                  Your a Legend in your own lunch Morrissey, plus a bare faced liar, just put up evidence not opinion that the uk where financing ISIS not some fanciful arguenebt with a million degrees of separation Also let Ed of his leash, it’s getting warm in the basement

                • Bewilderd …
                  13 October 2018 at 2:40 pm

                  Your a Legend in your own lunch time Morrissey, plus a bare faced liar, just put up evidence not opinion that the uk where financing ISIS not some fanciful arguement with a million degrees of separation Also release Ed’s from his collar and leathers it’s getting warm in the basement

                • Ed …
                  13 October 2018 at 2:51 pm

                  It is disturbing how many people fall for the propaganda over Skripal, Syria and the Ukraine. Hook, line and sinker.

                  Were they not around in 2002/3 when we were lied to over Iraq?
                  It does make you wonder…….

            • Sacha 19.3.1.1.1.2
              13 October 2018 at 2:36 pm

              Clutching at straws. Step outside into the fresh air.

              • Morrissey …
                13 October 2018 at 2:40 pm

                What the hell are you talking about?

              • SaveNZ …
                13 October 2018 at 3:15 pm

                I think the biggest posters of misinformation plus them meanest and most abusive are the posters who are paid for or used to work for the Auckland council and government. Must explain why the above organisations now spend million of dollars on PR and have so many different contractors spinning for them.

                I guess we now have a Trend where the truth is disposable and money is well spent on controlling all avenues of free speech and influencing for money.

                As well as the sinister new way of spying on people and influencing groups via third parties like Thompson & Clark.

                • David Mac …
                  13 October 2018 at 3:25 pm

                  Yep the information highway is in gridlock. It’s become impossible to sort the bona fide from the BS and the default position has become: Choose a side.

                  • McFlock …
                    13 October 2018 at 3:59 pm

                    We’re flooded with information, so trying to figure out what’s going on is like fishing.

                    Information sources are like fishing spots. Any individual story is like a particular catch.

                    Some spots are usually plentiful with healthy fish, others are often sparse, and there’s a sewer outflow or two around, as well.

                    Perfection is unachievable, but we can still make a good catch every day if we put a bit of thought into it.

                    • gsays …
                      13 October 2018 at 4:39 pm

                      One person’s sewer outlet is another’s fishing spot.

                      Recently in regards to the double spy poisoning bru haha the tone round here has really lowered.

                      It is unpleasant and unattractive and off putting the aggro and bullying that has to go on when exchanging political points of view.
                      Willy waving.
                      With the league test in mind: play the ball, not the man.

                    • David Mac …
                      13 October 2018 at 4:42 pm

                      I think the value views come from those that anchor and have a go all over the bay.

                      To my mind, I’d rather engage with someone that has the outlook: ‘What are they harping on about at Whaleoil today?’ than someone who feels ‘I’d never visit that disgusting tripe.’

                      I think knowing why some feel Kavanaugh is fabulous matters.

                    • McFlock …
                      13 October 2018 at 4:55 pm

                      re: whaleoil, tried there ages ago. Caught so many used johnnies and floating turds that it put me off whatever good fish might have been there, if any. If someone can cook up a tasty turd fritter, more power to them but I ain’t eating it.

                      Sources do count. Bad sources waste your time and attention. I have better things to do. If they produce meaty stories that pass credibility tests, maintain a focus, justify strong claims with strong evidence, don’t disguise opinion as fact, don’t build towers on a few small assumptions, then they’re probably fair enough for most topics. If they’re biased, is the bias consistent? And if they just throw out contradictory stories, many of which look obviously fabricated, then why waste you’re time? One shotgun pellet might hit the bullseye, but you never know which one will do it when they’re still in the cartridge. That’s the point to shotguns.

                • Sacha …
                  13 October 2018 at 8:52 pm

                  “the posters who are paid for or used to work for the Auckland council and government.
                  …
                  spying on people and influencing groups via third parties like Thompson & Clark.”

                  Yes, knowing about a system because you have worked in it is exactly the same as infiltratating activist organisations.

                  Get a grip.

          • gsays 19.3.1.1.2
            13 October 2018 at 4:01 pm

            From where I sit Sacha, this discussion space is ruined by comments like:
            “You and your stormtrooper couldn’t catch a cold, much less apprehend the truth of a complex geopolitical situation”

            “Or is all your tottering edifice of bullshit so fragile that a single truth will bring it all down?”

            “Ed, the constant dupe of and apologist for Assad’s and Putin’s warcrimes. If he had a brain, or a conscience, his shame would drown him”

            Now that the tone is set you join in with:
            “Put it away, you pathetic creature.”

            I get robust debate, and healthy back and forth but these snipes just make the cite closer to whale oil, stop others who are reading joining in and when there are more than a couple with this tone, reeks of bullying.

            • JanM 19.3.1.1.2.1
              13 October 2018 at 6:44 pm

              Oh please, I so agree – it’s horrible!!!

            • SaveNZ 19.3.1.1.2.2
              13 October 2018 at 6:52 pm

              +1 gsays, Yep, too personal and just plain abusive. There is a difference with being upset about political events or people in the media and just plain abuse at other posters which seems to have become a trend for some people to start the day abusing ED, for example and others.

              At least ED has a point of view, unlike some of the bullies that only post negative comments about other posters and contribute little to zero view points themselves.

              If there is no content and just abuse from people getting kicks from it, or their morning ritual to abuse certain people, it just devalues the site.

              I can understand it from the right wingers but TS has collected a few woke lefties that just bully and stalk others each day.

              • greywarshark …
                13 October 2018 at 7:35 pm

                I have counted the inconsequential garbage that has come up since I put a query about the blog on 14.

                You can see who are the incontinent bedwetters that need to grow up before they are let near a keyboard:
                Ed 10
                David Mac 6
                Morrissey 9
                Stuart Munro 14

                gsays couldn’t resist 5
                Bewildered 3
                Sacha 3
                Savenz 2
                McFlock 2
                maui 1

                e&oe

                • Ed …
                  13 October 2018 at 7:38 pm

                  My comment at 15 about neoliberalism is not inconsequential.

                  • joe90 …
                    13 October 2018 at 7:56 pm

                    I bother with the claptrap you post day in day to check on who the host is and who they feature in their popular channels.

                    BarakalypseNow has pewdipie featured, because you know, laughing about the Holocaust is edgy.

                    So yeah, vile and inconsequential.

                    • Ed …
                      13 October 2018 at 9:22 pm

                      Joe, I post regularly on a variety of interesting topics.
                      Neoliberalism, Corbyn, Palestine, Child poverty, Syria, Alcohol, Ukraine, Sugar, Climate Change, the Salisbury affair and plant based diets to name a few,

                      Just because you disagree with my opinion on some of these should not mean you revert to abuse.

                      Be kind to people.

                • Morrissey …
                  14 October 2018 at 5:52 pm

                  Well done, Ed and Stuart.

                  You guys are the champs!

              • Ed …
                13 October 2018 at 7:47 pm

                Thank you.
                Each time I post my point of view on a subject a bunch of stalkers attack me.

            • Sacha 19.3.1.1.2.3
              13 October 2018 at 9:14 pm

              gsays, I was objecting to a specific post that carefully and deliberately dragged up a comment thread from 2 days earlier to keep a willy-waving argument going. Hence ‘put it away’.

              There are a handful of commenters who have been behaving very anti-socially during the past week at least – and others have noted that. I am not a moderator here and nor do I have the patience to reason with adults who are acting like unruly children.

              I did try to engage Mr Breen’s behaviour briefly and politely yesterday: https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-12-10-2018/#comment-1534921

              Morrissey has been behaving like this over many years and has been banned from other discussion spaces over it. If you and others reckon that’s what you want this site to be about rather than discussing labour movement politics, it’s good for all of us to understand your expectations.

              • gsays …
                14 October 2018 at 1:19 am

                Hey cheers for that Sacha, I wasn’t aware of the context and past with you two.
                I would say however, I haven’t seen Ed abuse anyone, in fact ask repeatedly for a few folk to tone it down.
                We can all disagree fine, but the abuse over the last week or so from a few commenters is unnecessary.

                I agree, it is childish at times.

                • Sacha …
                  14 October 2018 at 9:35 am

                  Thank you. It’s nothing personal for me beyond a dislike for repeat behaviour that puts off plenty of people from coming together in places like this. I do not envy the moderators.

  20. Exkiwiforces 20
    14 October 2018 at 12:54 am

    Sorry for being a bit in day for this been digging tenches as I’m trying found a leak and now the drive way looks like the tench lines from Tobruk, but had to post this or else I’ll forget in morning.

    It appears on current polling that Australia may looking at hung parliament after the Wentworth by-election, if the Lib’s get below 40% and if Phelps does well on 1st preference votes head of Sharma then she within shot of winning. The problem with Phelps is that she is Liberal in a ture sense, not a progressive Liberal you would see from Labour. But in saying that a couple of her senior campaign staff are from the Labour Party which has pissed off a number of people from the Lib’s and Labour, so pull up a pew, grab the popcorn and grab your favourite poison to the watch the mud, the dirt and the blood fly about as the turn into the final corner as they head down the final straight folks. As is this going to one mud run you don’t want to miss and the best part about this mud run is you won’t get dirty unless you choke on your popcorn or your on favourite poison.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-13/liberals-fall-behind-in-wentworth-by-election-poll/10373508

    • Dennis Frank 20.1
      14 October 2018 at 5:52 am

      Cool, except that we face the distasteful prospect of male aussies using their hung parliament to claim that they’re well-hung…

      • Exkiwiforces 20.1.1
        14 October 2018 at 12:59 pm

        To be honest, I don’t think it would be a hung parliament if Phelps gets of the line as she has said that “ She would Lib’s on supply and on votes of no- confidence matters” unless Labour gets over the line.

        One adding thing I would like to add is that Phelps stood for the Liberal pre- selection for the Wentworth by- election but was knocked back in favour of old mate Sharma. Now if Phelps does get over the line, then the Liberal old boy network, NSW Liberal Party HQ and other parts of the Liberal Party who hate the Rainbow branch of the Liberal Party are going to look like a bunch of drongos.

        • greywarshark 20.1.1.1
          14 October 2018 at 1:32 pm

          Thanks ex kiwi forces for bringing us up to date on Oz politics. I dislike the way they go on but as near neighbours it is necessary for us to follow the
          doings and your explanations are gold.

  21. eco maori 21
    14 October 2018 at 9:22 am

    Kia ora R&R Would you have even dreamed of the changes that are happening in our society alot of positive for the common tangata whenua.
    I agree with the Wahine that tanngata whenua have to realize that if they do shady stuff this day & age 2018 you will be called out nothing can be hidden well it can but one needs $100. million to have that in there tool box.
    Marae based work is the a charitable based one ka kite ano

  22. eco maori 22
    14 October 2018 at 9:51 am

    Kia ora Hui Its is sad that QJ had a bad out come from that accident I wish him and his family all the best he has a long road to recovery they have a give a little page thats the way get the tangata to help in your times of need.
    I won’t talk about one subject as it is not appropriate at the minute .
    I think te Tane is saying to bend the system into one that treats maori Equally and don’t try and chuck the system out .
    Te wahine is correct we need more maori in management doctors lawyers all the top professions and then maori will be treated fairly .When they can free education that move stop maori getting into these high profession’s .
    Kia kaha te tangata whenua ka kite ano

    • greywarshark 23.1
      14 October 2018 at 1:41 pm

      Thanks for that eco maori. And their last words ‘Nothing really matters to me’ I think are not what you feel. Kia kaha with the things that matter to you.

  24. eco maori 24
    14 October 2018 at 4:13 pm

    Kia kaha to the German pro Equality and human rights people these people are environmentalist and are anti neo fascist who are cheating their way into power in Europe with the help from neoliberal capitalist around the world whom have a love for money over common sense.
    I see the dirty tricks these people use all over the world trying to hack our democracy I’m quite glad that at least 250k of people turned up to this rallie in Berlin . One thing I don’t agree with is who gave the neoliberal capitalist the right to use right in there name’s or branding a lot of people would see this and think well not think ? and believe the neo’s are automatically right in there false lying opinions on Equality animal rights climate change .
    Because of this fact this gives Eco Maori the clearances to call out anyone that is a neoliberal capitalist oil loving fool . Kia kaha to the intelligent humane environment pro
    Wahine right’s people .Ka kite ano

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45851665

  25. eco maori 25
    14 October 2018 at 5:50 pm

    And here is a fine example of the neo liberals capitals go oil party of America cheating te tangata whenua ? Natives of North Dakota rights to a voice and vote they are distorting our democracy .
    How can these people stand up straight when they treat people’s right like dirt ana to kai / take that all the Natives of America need to vote for a better future for there grandchildren. link below ka kite ano

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/107833584/native-americans-fight-back-against-voting-limits-with-audacious-plan-in-north-dakota

  26. eco maori 26
    14 October 2018 at 6:33 pm

    Kia ora Newshub It’s cool that our government has put more money into our school’s and is on a recruitment drive for more teachers.
    Some people don’t know how to drive on a beach they think it is safer than a road it is but only because of low trafic if you flip you are in trouble.
    Its is awesome that some world leaders are boycotting Saudi Arabia because of thee reporter going missing we know were we can not standby and let our reporters be killed at the will of the powerful.
    That was a good send off for Penny Bright I say she was well known and loved ka pai .
    Craig Smith book the Wonky Donkey sales are taking off to the Stars it shows the Kiwi wit off to the World.
    Yes Niki & Andrew it has been a Super Sports Sunday and weekend for Aotearoa kia kaha .Ka kite ano

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