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Open mike 13/10/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 13th, 2012 - 129 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

129 comments on “Open mike 13/10/2012”

    • Colonial Viper 1.1

      Syria rebels sponsor Bahrain abuses and kills unarmed protestors

      Pays CNN to cover up.

  1. Sanctuary 2

    It seems National’s response to falling decisively behind in the polls is to launch an all out attack on David Shearer, presumably in the hope of somehow destabilizing Labour. The attack was signalled by an unusually active Mathew Hooten desperately trying to re-frame debate this way on every blog he thought might be read by a journalist and is being vigorously pushed by the right’s liars, repeaters and shills (Slater, Farrar and O’Sullivan) today. It is truly desperate stuff, but cunning in a shit house rat, Steven Joyce kind of way. Ot won’t work, but i would suggest we all start using the frantic mud slinging at Shearer as a reliable indicator of just how ugly the internal polling results are getting for forgetful John and his shambolic government.

    • karol 2.1

      In the last week, it looks like Shearer has started to lead the news agenda, rather than just respond to it: bringing up the issue of key talking at the GCSB staff cafe; announcing a joint parliamentary inquiry into manufacturing.  National have been put in the position of having to respond to these stories.
       
      On policy, I think Shearer is till too far to the right for me.  But on leadership, I think Shearer is starting to show some.

      • muzza 2.1.1

        In the last week, it looks like Shearer has started to lead the news agenda, rather than just respond to it:

        Hi Karol –

        What the above statement really indicates is that the media are seeking to shift control the debate – Shearer is not leading anything, and is no leader, never was, never will be which is why he was selected in the first place.

        The aim of the media, as you will be aware is to control the context of the narrative, to shift and subvert, missdirect and deceive, thats what it exists for.

        While it is too soon to say the writing is on the wall for NACT next election, the media are hedging their bets by attempting to make Shearer look like potentential (he is also their man), thats all the game is about…We know this because of the way the same media talks unfavourably, for the most part about DC. That said I do not see DC as any saviour of this country, he knows how the system is designed, and what its designed for, its the way a manufactured theatre must function, to mimic democracy

      • David H 2.1.2

        Sorry Karol Shearer is not leading he is being led by the nose. And until the ‘leaders’ are dug out and gone, then Labour will just be a bunch of wanna be’s, and worst of all HAS BEENS!

      • Vicky32 2.1.3

        On policy, I think Shearer is till too far to the right for me

        Could you clarify what you mean, please? Afaik, he’s not right wing at all, except in slurs from others.

    • freedom 2.2

      Fran O’Sullivan, tempted with the baubles of back room banterings, does seem to have drifted to the opposing shore from that which she first patrolled

      please help me to understand why this comment was put into moderation?

      [Sorry – no idea – if it happens frequently then you share an IP range with a known spammer or troll – let us know if that is the case. r0b]

      • freedom 2.2.1

        down in wellington at work ( on wakefield st) and have posted from here numerous times over the last few years. This last week I am having a ridiculously impossible time posting from computers or phone, at work at home or on public machines.

        past 24 hours I have been checking on downforeveryoneorjustme.com and usually get a yes it is down for everyone

        On Phone: Most times site doesn’t load, or tells me the comment was not published, then i go to page and it was published, or does the super frustrating jump away from the text entry box when trying to add text etc which has been going on for ages now. Basically entering from the phone is impossible without a lot of patience.

        I do nothing to my phone. I use ‘approved supplier aps’ i use it more a s acamera and memo book than i do a phone. It gets turned on. It gets turned off. Any issues with anything relating to software are not coming from me. Every other site i visit is fine, same as for the pc access. They load fine, run fine, text entry is fine. Every other site is fine. Something very screwy going on and i strongly suspect thestandard site is getting messed with.

        Anyways, this is not a complaint just trying to understand what is going on

    • North 2.3

      For the apologists and spinners the drive of the last few days has been to slide over the nub of matters, Key’s palpable dishonesty, into a story about the story.

      However, as numerous commenters have said, the smell of shit is all over Key. Peoples’ nostrils are already, irreversibly, on alert.

      Too late Johnny Boy. You’re in this business up to your neck and in a more or less way everyone knows it including your dissembling soldiers. That’s why we have the story about the story, the shrill attacks on Shearer, and pleas/directions towards indulgence.

      Clay feet…….no clothes………fibbing little boy……..rabbit in the headlights.

      It’s hilarious.

  2. Adrian 3

    The increasingly idiotic Fran O’S is advocating for Key to get the GCSB to investigate David Shearer, she obviously wrote the manual for Putin and before that Ol’Joe Stalin himself. She certainly looks and sounds old enough to have been in the shadows in the 40’s!

    • tc 3.1

      What these ‘journalists’ like franet, JA and their blog buddies don’t seem to realise because their heads are so far up NACTs butt that this shows just how biased and in the pocket of the hollowmen they are.

      Readers of this site and other informed sources already know that but in terms of swaying any swingers it’s probably going to do the opposite and undermine what little credibility, if any, they had.

    • karol 3.2

      This is interesting though.  It seems Mold’s partner wasn’t at the GCSB at the time of Key’s cafe talk to staff:

      The Weekend Herald has been told Dr Rogers was not at the GCSB on the critical dates in the scandal. The Weekend Herald understands he was seconded to another government agency at the time of the Dotcom spying and during Mr Key’s visit….
       
      [Shearer said] “Whether (the video) still exists now as a result of the searches that GCSB has made, I can’t tell you.”
       
      He also gave more detail of Mr Key’s comments. “He mentioned the good work they had done with the Kim Dotcom case. There were a large number of people at that meeting who heard John Key speak.”

       

      • Dr Terry 3.2.1

        Just as I thought, Karol, a large number present – is one of them, at least, prepared to testify to what they heard? (Or have I missed something?)

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1

          That’s the million dollar question – will any more of these people who were there come forward?

    • Red Rosa 3.3

      And this sounds on the mark.

      http://www.kiwipolitico.com/

      Seems increasingly probable there was GCSB surveillance of Dotcom, maybe right from the time he arrived in NZ. The NZ agencies would not have been ‘confused’ or ‘mistaken’ over Dotcom’s residency, they just treated it as irrelevant to their US instructions.

      Key had had numerous GCSB briefings from the time he took office, and would surely have known about this before February 2012. A few words then to praise the troops would have been appropriate, given the Dotcom raid circus just weeks before.

      If this jolly gathering happened as surmised, and was taped, it would be interesting to watch and maybe highly damaging to the PM. But it is only a small part of the big picture, which it seems stretched back a long time before.

      As the minister in charge of GCSB, the real question is whether the admitted crime of illegal surveillance can be laid at the feet of John Key himself. But who watches the watchers?

    • millsy 4.1

      Governments all over the world are making Sam Kuha, and thousands like him, bear the brunt of this crisis. Saddening really.

      I hope this isnt the last we hear from him…sound opportunistic, but he should have a crack at running for office.

      • tc 4.1.1

        Be interesting to see if the MSM do some serious follow ups in what Bennett says and does after the meeting, shades of the key visit to the aspirational family in goffs electorate, opportunistic and hollow like their backers.

        • AsleepWhileWalking 4.1.1.1

          Mmmm…Bennett (who let’s face it really avoided committing to a meeting with Sam as much as she could without conclusively proving she was a heartless bitch) is likely to meet with him just for show. Need to keep up the pressure on her or it will be shuffled to the back of the media pile quickly.

          Sam for office sounds excellent. You can change the world from a wheelchair : )

          Sam could take this in a number of directions. I’d like him to contact the Office of Disabilities (run by MSD) and see if he could work to influence MSD by using his experience to help other people on Sickness and IB’s. If Bennett suggests it to him, even better.

        • muzza 4.1.1.2

          Below is the original article before it was edited a couple of days ago. Had to save as text, otherwise the html wanted to link itself to the update version.
          Does that make Danya Levy more senior? as her name does not appear on the article below, but does on the 834am update

          Rescuing vulnerable kids: Bennett’s master plan
          KATE CHAPMAN
          Last updated 05:00 11/10/2012
          Share
          The Government is encouraging people to dob
          in suspected child abusers under a raft of changes aimed at reining in our
          horrific child abuse rate.
          Social Development Minister Paula Bennett will today launch the White Paper for
          Vulnerable Children – the culmination of four years’ work and consultation with
          thousands of community groups and concerned parents.
          The cornerstone of the Government’s plan is raising awareness of the signs of
          child abuse and neglect, and urging people to report it.
          Recent high-profile cases have shown vulnerable children were often known to
          multiple agencies but a failure to put the pieces together saw them horribly
          reabused and even killed.
          Mrs Bennett said the plight of vulnerable children had been her driving force
          and the policy changes unveiled today simply had to work. “I feel like this is
          what I came into Parliament for.”
          The White Paper and accompanying Children’s Action Plan were the best that could
          have been produced in the current environment, she said.
          A Child Protect telephone line is planned for concerned neighbours, family,
          friends and professionals to ring when they suspect a child is being badly
          treated.
          Comments made to the phone line, and information gathered by government and
          community organisations, would be entered into a Vulnerable Kids Information
          System to track those deemed at risk.
          The system would also hold information on high-risk adults who had abused or
          neglected children, regardless of whether they were convicted.
          Such information sharing was crucial, Mrs Bennett said.
          The system would be password-protected, users would be monitored, and
          professionals would have restricted access to different levels of information.
          Only children considered vulnerable – at risk of, or already experiencing,
          maltreatment – would be entered into the system. While accounts could be made
          inactive, it was unlikely they would ever be deleted. An expert panel would be
          established to nut out details of the system. “The security and the checks to be
          put on this information system is vital to its integrity. More than anything
          we’re going to work to get that right.”
          There would be children wrongly identified as being vulnerable, Mrs Bennett
          said.
          “If they’re not becoming a child of concern then, as such, they will effectively
          drop out of the system.”
          The Child Protect line would have a role in ensuring information in the system
          was correct and updated. The contact service did not have to be run by the
          Social Development Ministry; it could be contracted out to a non-government
          organisation.
          Ad Feedback The Government also wants those working with children to take
          greater responsibility in reporting suspected neglect or abuse. Teachers and
          medical professionals would be among those given training to recognise the
          signs, and legislation would be introduced “requiring all agencies working with
          children to have policies and reporting systems in place to recognise and report
          child abuse and neglect”, the White Paper says.
          Mrs Bennett said that was not mandatory reporting. “We’re going to really set
          some clear rules around it . . . making sure that they follow through and they
          do report; we’re also not making it mandatory so they use their professional
          judgment better.”
          There were concerns that mandatory reporting would mean at-risk children dropped
          out of the system and services would be over-run with notifications.
          Under the Children’s Action Plan, there would also be controls on who could have
          contact with children. People who posed a continuing and serious threat to their
          children could have their parental rights removed by a judge.
          Mrs Bennett said it was an extreme step and not one that would be taken lightly.

          New civil child abuse prevention orders would give judges the power to place
          restrictions on people who posed a high risk to a child or future children.
          Critics may claim Mrs Bennett has ignored the real threat for a number of Kiwi
          children – poverty.
          “I was always blatantly targeting these most vulnerable, abused and neglected
          children in this country and that’s what this piece of work was always about,”
          Mrs Bennett said.
          ‘WE CAN DO MUCH BETTER FOR FAILED KIDS’
          Social Development Minister Paula Bennett puts her mouth where her heart is:
          that too many Kiwi kids are failed, but that we can do much better.
          “The day I got offered the job of Minister of Social Development the first thing
          I said to the prime minister on the phone, at 9pm on a Sunday, was ‘does it
          include Child, Youth and Family?’
          The former solo mum has a clear idea of what she wants and how to get it. She’ll
          listen, but once a plan is set in motion there’s no stopping the determined
          Waitakere MP.
          New Zealand’s child abuse record is an embarrassment to everyone; none more so
          than the woman charged with overseeing child welfare.
          Ms Bennett said that was her driving force since entering Parliament.
          “It is my key driver, without a doubt.
          “I feel like [the White Paper] is one of the biggest and certainly most
          significant changes that will be in my time as minister.”
          Early in her first term as minister, Ms Bennett was in the United Kingdom when
          she decided we needed a White Paper on vulnerable children.
          First came the Green Paper – a discussion document launched amongst much
          fanfare.
          Almost 10,000 submissions later, the Government has released its reaction to the
          suggestions: The White Paper and Children’s Action Plan, which Ms Bennett says
          will make a difference in the life of the most vulnerable kids in our society.
          “I’m unapologetic in my saying we can do a better job for them and that’s where
          my focus is.”
          – © Fairfax NZ News

          • ianmac 4.1.1.2.1

            Wonder if those “failed kids” she talks about are the same ones who are in the so-called “long tail of failure at school?”

          • prism 4.1.1.2.2

            muzza
            Thanks for giving us the info.

          • muzza 4.1.1.2.3

            Look at the opening paragraph of the updated article

            DANYA LEVY AND KATE CHAPMAN
            Last updated 08:34 11/10/2012

            New measures to reduce New Zealand’s appalling rate of child abuse are being welcomed by child advocates but Opposition parties say the Government has failed to address poverty which can exacerbate the risk.

            Look at the deliberate framing to pit so called child adovate groups (no mention of who), against the “opposition parties”, this is faux support for the NACT government, being created out of total thin air by the MSM!

            The opening of the new article below – So between 5am and the 834am update, the “child advocate groups” gave their support did they – This sort of garbage neds to be called out, and in the original article, only a couple of hours earlier, no mention of suport at all, only mention of critics lower down the article…So the article was updated, sanitized and deliberate lies inserted by the looks of it.

            KATE CHAPMAN
            Last updated 05:00 11/10/2012

            The Government is encouraging people to dob
            in suspected child abusers under a raft of changes aimed at reining in our
            horrific child abuse rate.
            Social Development Minister Paula Bennett will today launch the White Paper for
            Vulnerable Children – the culmination of four years’ work and consultation with
            thousands of community groups and concerned parents.

            • PlanetOrphan 4.1.1.2.3.1

              Well spotted muzza, Bennet is obviously looking for cheap/no cost things to promote.

              Hang on …. weren’t the police just recently saying those numbers are because of increased reporting because of advertising, community participation?

              4 years investigation, culminating in “Tell people to report it” ??

              The womans a leech M8!

            • Jokerman 4.1.1.2.3.2

              Thanks for the awhi muzza

              There is no depression in new zealand
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=10839802
              blam blam blam

              • muzza

                psychiatry professor says the drugs are being over-prescribed.

                Yup what there is , is deliberate misuse of “drugs” used to placate the sheep from wondering why they are feeling so fcked up in the first place…

                There you go, have some fluoride, eat some nice lithium, prozac, fluoxetene, have a shed load of mental stress created by all these nice fake systems we are trapping you into, then when you feel bad, go see the nice Dr who will ensure that you stay docile, and if you really feel something is wrong we will send you to the quack who will certify you.

          • Chris 4.1.1.2.4

            wishy washy!!!!

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 5

    Welfare Justice Dunedin says humiliation of beneficiaries widespread and challenges Work and Income to drop their appeal and use those resources to follow Human Rights Tribunal’s ruling: http://community.scoop.co.nz/2012/10/beneficiary-battles-on/

    Quote: ‘We challenge the Ministry to stop using bully tactics and taxpayer money to drag Mr Holmes through the High Court, and to take on board the tribunal’s recommendations. This isn’t an isolated incident. WJD has been inundated with appalling stories of breaches of privacy, humiliation, loss of dignity and a widespread disconnect from professional conduct among WINZ staff.’

  4. ScottGN 6

    I can’t believe I just heard that fool of a Housing Minister, Heatley whining on Radio NZ that Hone should quit bitching about the GI evictions and just be grateful his people up north are going to get hand-me-down houses.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 6.1

      National needs donations to pay for media training for their Ministers. It’s a Ministerial car crash.

  5. Poor sam wasn’t given a lousy $40 for food,which he travelled miles for in a wheelchair,
    but $600.000 of tax payers money can be given for the ‘elite’ to have a weekend of golf
    in Queenstown,the Micheal Hill tournament.
    My love and support go out to sam and hope that he is ok now and qudos to Hone
    for supporting him.

    • vto 7.1

      Couldn’t agree more.

      Lordy knows how they can play golf with those heavy blinkers on.

      We are a society of haves and have nots and it is taking too long for most to realise we are no longer an equal and egalitarian society.

  6. Lanthanide 8

    The economist, on why printing money is the new normal:
    http://www.economist.com/node/21564210

  7. I dont condone violence but bennett was just on the nation,i actually felt she needed a
    slap.
    The ignoramace can’t even admit that ‘poverty’ is the problem.

  8. chris73 10

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/GCSB-SPY.jpg

    This illustrates the difference between the left and right when it comes to using humour in a political setting. Basically the right try to be amusing while making a point whereas the left are about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

  9. John Campbell on media3,he is a great nz’er for what is right and what is wrong in nz,
    he is a champion.

  10. BM 12

    Why is this site soooo slow, it’s like stepping back to the days of dial up?
    Great looking site but the usability is crap.
    The Standard would have to be one of the slowest sites on the web, I don’t get it,the site is 99% text it should load in an instant.

    • prism 12.1

      BM
      I have been finding that the site is extremely slow often. I haven’t noticed this before. It seems to take ages to get comments up often. Also I click on a recent comment from the right hand box and get sent to some other page or it takes ages to find though I have noticed that there is a difficulty with that when there are over say 100 comments.

      I thought it was from my setup. It has been suggested that I use Firefox instead of Opera so I could possibly help from my side, but I haven’t had such problems in the past. I don’t know whether the constant upgrades I get with Opera may introduce some new routine.

      • PlanetOrphan 12.1.1

        It’s the page breaking mechanism they use, all the old links break.
        (LPRent is aware of it, but the fix is bigger than a one liner unfortunately)

    • millsy 12.2

      Sites going OK for me, but if LPrent or someone can tell me how to stop the new post notifications from being emailed to me it would be really awesome. My smartphone dings non-stop..

    • mike e 12.3

      BM for once I agree with you this site is always having problems maybe its popularity!

  11. prism 13

    The comment on Radionz this morning about the huge annual payments to heads of government agencies in money terms (rather than in percentage terms) sparked a memory of the right wing business interests talking about achieving lower wages for all by using tendering or an auction system to set the rates.

    Review of pay for public sector heads wanted
    The Green Party wants an urgent review of salaries of public sector chief executives after a report by the State Services Commission showed some are paid more than $600,000.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political

    Now when top salaries are getting into the money gouging level for these executives working supposedly to deliver government efficiency and service to the people (often not achieved) in a non-profit situation, I think that tendering would be an excellent idea as part of the survey of candidates available to human resources. At present setting salaries seems very inflationary and similar to the model that used to be followed prior to 1984 by workers and their unions which the government has stamped out. I think we should be aiming for ability and track record rather than rabbiting on about getting ‘the best’. Let’s get away from high-flown language that builds images and go practical through tendering with the usual careful proviso which I think is – (lowest or any tender not necessarily accepted).

    And economically it is counter-productive to combine departments and then multiply the salary of the top executive on that basis, instead of looking at economies of scale with a chance to get more productivity from the top banana. This is a slippery slope that the salary-setting body has started on and it’s time that our responsible? economic entities levelled this yellow brick road presently paved with gold bars.

    • vto 13.1

      You can always tell where the power lies in a society by the pay rates, but more easily by the buildings…

      When the church has power they build great cathedrals.

      When the military has power they build great garrisons and fortresses.

      When business has power they build great glass towers.

      When governments have power they build great offices etc. Currently the power in society rests with government. That is why pre-earthquake Christchurch’s most expensive building was the IRD building.

      Similarly, the new Chch City Council building.
      Similarly, the Court of Appeal building in Wellington.

      • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1

        I have no problems with governments having power – just so long as they’re democratic.

        • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1

          Yep – and not just operating units of corporate business interests, like those you see in the US.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      I think a simple cap of $250k for a public servant, including the PM, would be fine. If the CEOs didn’t want to work for that they can wander off to the private sector. There is, after all, plenty of more people below them with the capability of doing the job just as well, if not better, than them.

    • prism 13.3

      What about tendering for the top pay? Has this been done anywhere in the world? Are we doing our usual and playing just part of a game that others have already left behind in our devotion to our free market version?

  12. captain hook 14

    why is the standard so slow?
    ask the GCSB
    larfffs.
    as for public service salaries.
    this national party government does not believe in government but it believes in patronage, pelf, peculation and paying off its supporters.
    figure it out for yourself.

    • prism 14.1

      captain hook
      Got another p word – persiflage – light frivolous approach. Suits Jokey Hen I think.

  13. prism 15

    captain hook
    Like your alliteration. And pelf – didn’t know that – good word I see it comes right down from 14th century Old French pelfre meaning booty. The desire for which connects us down the centuries ay!

  14. Jackal 16

    Roughan’s willful ignorance

    There are none so blind as those who choose not to see…

  15. Draco T Bastard 17

    Understanding and Forecasting the Credit Cycle—Why the Mainstream Paradigm in Economics and Finance Collapsed

    The crisis has with one stroke not only discredited the particular decisions by those responsible for the crisis—central bankers, financial regulators, and bankers—but it has disproved the entire mainstream “neo-classical” paradigm of thinking about economics and economic policy. The Washington Consensus, the basis for recent government and central bank policies all over the world, has been proven wrong.

    But the current crisis is not the only piece of evidence that there has been something seriously amiss with the mainstream economic theories and the policies based on them. Other evidence includes the increasingly visible environmental destruction, or the many previous financial and economic crises the world has seen. Indeed, banking and financial crises have recurred with such frequency over the past centuries that their occurrence must be considered one of the few constants in economic life. Each time, much surprise is exhibited by the experts. Over the past three decades, the number of banking and financial crises has increased (to over 100 countries) and the swings of the business cycle have become more pronounced. (It is noteworthy that this happened, as central bank independence and power over economic policy has increased significantly during this time period).

  16. Gawd I wish that Shane Jones would learn to STFU.  Abusing the Greens over their perfectly appropriate suggestion that we should allow satirists to make fun of commercial ads is ridiculous.  

    If this sort of satire is not allowed the next thing the commercial interests will do is try and ban any sort of adverse comments about them, even when they do things like use slave labour or plunder depleted fish stocks or kill Maui’s dolphin.

    Perhaps Shearer should be thinking about Jones when he does his next reshuffle.

    • Pete 18.1

      How can Jones demoted when he has no portfolio areas in the first place? I don’t like rewarding poor performance, but perhaps he should be given something to keep him occupied. Sport or racing, for example.

    • tc 18.2

      A mistake by Helen long overdue for correction, he did well in the 2011 polls but up against Sharples a more credible candidate would have taken that Maori seat. They just needed a plausible alternative to PIta and didn’t get one from Labour, less of the duck more of the deserving is required.

      • North 18.2.1

        Jones = verbose potato.

        Less puke inducing than that parliamentary bennie bludger Tau Henare (aka Ray Henry of “the union”) but a verbose potato nevertheless.

    • vto 18.3

      ha ha that spoof is absolutely brilliant and absolutely spot on.

      Shane Jones – fuck off and grow up you useless chook. If you can’t handle the heat then get out of the kitchen. Fancy trying to stop people doing this sort of thing …. You belong in the USA Shane Jones – see ya later.

      Sealord, Meridian, all the oil companies, they all spout bullshit. Is Shane Jones seriously defending the image and perception they try to convey? What a fucking muppet.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.4

      FFS, quoting Jones:

      “This is a bill which will definitely lead to the destruction of jobs, which makes it a crackpot idea. Jobs are not going to be maintained if brands are destroyed.”

      If the brand can’t stand up to a little satire highlighting the truth behind the brand then it doesn’t deserve to continue. In fact, it probably should have been shut down by government.

    • prism 18.5

      ms
      The beef barons in USA actually got nasty when Ophra made some remark about why she wouldn’t eat hamburgers because of the beef not being healthy. Forgotten what happened.

  17. lprent 20

    By the look of it, that stats tab was what was causing the recent periodic slowdowns on the site.

    It looks like it was locking up on the comment count query when a comment was being stored and queries were stacking up waiting for it. It effectively stalled the page display for many. I set up a graph to look for the numbers of threads active on the database at any one time – was getting these strange spikes.

    I’ll have to recode that to do it on a periodic basis or to keep a running total. In the meantime it can go off. Enough playing about. Time to head back to work.

  18. Jokerman 21

    RT: “the return of the Caliphate around the Pyramids
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Islam)
    it’s an ill wind that blows no good…

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