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Open mike 13/12/2009

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 13th, 2009 - 17 comments
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Topics of interest, announcements, general discussion. The usual rules apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

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17 comments on “Open mike 13/12/2009”

  1. Bill 1

    Some worthwhile Sunday reading?

    The Climate Chronicle newspaper is being produced every two days during the Copenhagen climate talks. Thoughtful and in depth articles, analysis and comment. Downloadable as pdf

    http://www.tni.org/briefing/newspaper-climate-chronicle

  2. prism 2

    A comment on one of the talks either Copenhagen or the Dohar rounds that countries might just give up set me thinking. In the future if nothing worthwhile has been done by top people with the money and information at hand to bring about change, ordinary people who are younger and not resigned or apathetic will become sufficiently enraged to have mass meetings and there will be slaughter of many by troops trying to control the population. Been done before. That will fuel and widen the anger. But if people feel there is nothing to lose there will be a worldwide focus on blame, revenge and hatred that will result in worse uprisings and attacks than the present Islamic attacks. It won’t just be a settling down to a simpler, more basic society – the element of class and desire for money has to be overcome for that to happen, I think.

    Some of the sci-fi books have attempted to devise a story using this scenario. I like John Wyndhams The Triffids, the book. Don’t know about the film. But in his story there is hope for the future, love, commitment, cunning, mature understanding of human behaviour and a viable place to live and group that still believe in friendship and human co-operation. Anyone remember the play The Admirable Crichton?

    • bill 2.1

      Or then again, you might be asked to board a train and you know if you do that you will wind up dead. And the person next to you knows the same thing. And thousands of us are herded and we are all thinking and knowing the same thing.

      Yet we all keep our heads down. We all keep our mouths shut and do as we are told because if we are good people…. compliant, polite and accommodating, then we might be okay.

      Of course we know we won’t be.

      Nevertheless…

      • prism 2.1.1

        Just got back Bill. Your comment about getting on a train and compliance – well there would have been hope that something could happen. might happen, that survival was possible, with also a wish to protect others especially the children from vicious treatment and the pain of the stark truth , and also an inability to comprehend how good people could be so harshly treated.
        The Kampucheans, the Rwandans, etc must have felt the same. If people lack hope for their world and their future and the humanity of others who could help, then the nothing to lose feeling would result in angry reaction.

        • Bill 2.1.1.1

          Saw a ‘home vid’ a wee while back. Taken in what was then still (sort of) Yugoslavia. Anyway. Three bubbies (teenagers) led handcuffed from truck by three other (essentially) bubbies with guns. Three bubbies have piss stains on their pants (obviously been hand cuffed for a while).

          They are led into the woods. No objection. You’d cringe or even weep at their level of observable apparent compliance. They even appeared to converse affably with their (soon to be) executioners.

          These videos were the last images these kid’s mothers saw of them.

        • Bill 2.1.1.2

          “If people lack hope for their world and their future and the humanity of others who could help, then the nothing to lose feeling would result in angry reaction.”

          No.

          It results in a certain fatalism ’cause everything is already lost. Humanity didn’t and doesn’t care otherwise the present situation wouldn’t have come to be. There is no anger. There is an ‘already dead’ mentality that takes precedence.

          • prism 2.1.1.2.1

            I can see how that could be Bill. Confusion and the loss of normalcy in everything coupled with hunger, lack of direction or leadership and an unrealised scapegoat might lead to hopeless torpor. It seems that humans are prone to want a scapegoat to blame and if one was found and action planned for them, then it could unleash all the potent rage lying untapped. KKK like.

            Cults produce in their devotees quiet docility and the leaders can channel it. People could react suicidally once committed to retaliating, and feeling part of another reactionist group. The personality type measures that place people as followers, leaders, rule bound, and creatives indicate the need for leaders as followers tend to be 80% or similar amongst surveyed.

  3. side show bob 3

    Yes prism, this has nothing to do climate change but everything to do ideology, particularly socialist ideology. “People have nothing to lose”, what rubbish they have everything to lose, try freedom for a start.

    • prism 3.1

      Thinking of SSBob on the Simpsons. Think the bone through your hair very cute. So is the comment that freedom is everything. It is all a matter of perspective. My birth father died in WW2 fighting for the right for us to think about what sort of freedom we want. After the end of WW2 the free and victorious USA started an anti-commie hunt that took away people’s right to freely consider the attributes of differing ideologies. Freedom is like religion, a great idea until some guys get hold of it and find a way to market it for their own advantage.

  4. Quoth the Raven 4

    A article from a progressive and former Obama supporter: Dear Barack, Spare Me Your E-Mails

    Barack Obama’s faux populism is beginning to grate, and when yet another one of those “we the people’ e-mails from the president landed on my screen as I was fishing around for a column subject, I came unglued. It is one thing to rob us blind by rewarding the power elite that created our problems but quite another to sugarcoat it in the rhetoric of a David taking on those Goliaths.

    In each of the three most important areas of policy with which he has dealt, Obama speaks in the voice of the little people’s champion, but his actions cater fully to the demands of the most powerful economic interests.

    With his escalation of the war in Afghanistan, he has given the military-industrial complex an excuse for the United States to carry on in spending more on defense than the rest of the world combined, without a credible military adversary in sight. His response to the banking meltdown was to continue George W. Bush’s massive giveaway of taxpayer dollars to Wall Street, and his health care reform has all the earmarks of a boondoggle for the medical industry profiteers.

    I feel if these people had engaged their minds a little more before the election instead of the usual leader worship and fealty to authority of the mainstream left they wouldn’t have wasted their time supporting that fool.

    • Zorr 4.1

      And instead supported John McCain and Sarah Palin?

      Not much to choose from there QtR and Obama is by far the lesser of two evils. The issue lies in the giant pedestal that they built to place the 50ft towering golden statue of him on.

      • Quoth the Raven 4.1.1

        The wrong lizard argument.

        ‘Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard’, said Ford, ‘the wrong lizard might get in.

        Zorr there are means other than political to bring about positive change in society. The very fact that you see it as an issue of the lesser of two evils shows how bankrupt the system is and that is the way that many Americans see it themselves. Is that any kind of democracy where your vote is only to play one evil off of another? I don’t think so, but you insist on framing it in democratic terms i.e., if Obama didn’t get in than McCain would’ve. The American people need to work outside the system to change it for the better.

  5. nder the US Constitutional system what option had they? Vote for Obama, vote for McCain, not vote. What would you have done?

    What might at last be seeping into the American psyche is that their much-vaunted Constitution, the theoretical product of very different world, no longer suffices. It’s an uncomfortable merging of a quadannular Kingship trying to co-exist with the Roman Republic. It might have been a vast improvement over the systems that existed two centuries ago but many of those, such as the Westminster system, have moved on considerably and while far from perfect have proved far more responsive to the needs and demands of the modern world that the US and can adapt far faster.

    • Lanthanide 5.1

      Note that there’s nothing in the constitution that says there can only be 2 political parties. In fact up until about the 1930’s or so there were multiple parties in American politics that had significant showings in the presidential elections. Since then it has suited the “PTB” to have only 2 main parties that the plebs must choose between and many systems have been put in place to support the overall 2-party system.

      So to answer your original question: “Under the US Constitutional system what option had they? Vote for Obama, vote for McCain, not vote.” they could have voted for any of the numerous independents that stood for the presidency. Of course none of these have made realistic showings since Ralph Nador cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000, but they were still an option, just like RAM and the other maginal parties in NZ are an option.

  6. gingercrush 6

    So we have a new TV 3 poll that is favourable for Labour but not favourable for National. National is down 5 points, Labour is up 3.6%, Greens 1%. Preferred PM. Key down six points and below 50% and Goff up 3% to 8%. TV 3 is attributing that to the Nationhood speech with polling out tomorrow likely to show support for that speech.Best poll for Labour for the whole year and a bad poll for National.

    Only I think TV 3 have it wrong and the “Nationhood” speech played little role in the support for Labour and the Greens going up and National’s polling falling. 2-3% falls in support for or against a party is well normal with polling. Its almost expected. Thus in my view Labour polling higher with the Greens is just that. A symptom of what occurs naturally in polling. But additionally better media coverage of Goff and Labour. They’ve been performing better as the opposition and have gotten some good hits against National and lifted their profile.

    National’s polling and John Key’s have fallen more substantially than 2-3%. Hence my feeling that artificial high polling and some questionable policies and bad governing as of late is directly responsible for National’s poor polling. They’ve taken hits, ministers have been all over the news. Key and National continue to be vague on a vision for their government. They just haven’t delivered that well as of late.

    Overall, therefore a good poll for Labour and bad for National. But this poll is more about how horrible National has been lately than any speech Goff gave two weeks ago. No doubt the media everywhere will like TV 3 point to the “Nationhood” speech as what made the polls turn. Its easy to do. But I think they’re wrong.

    • Armchair Critic 6.1

      It’s just a poll, ginge, I wouldn’t read too much into it
      There was a post a month or three back asking people who voted National in 2008 why they voted National. I recall there was quite a response to it.
      Earlier on this week the results of a Roy Morgan poll were the subject of a post. The poll results show the gap widened after the election. Which indicates that there are people who didn’t vote National at the election who would now vote National. And since I didn’t vote National at the election and wouldn’t now, I would be fascinated to know why anyone else would.

      • Craig Glen Eden 6.1.1

        I don’t think the polls mean much at all at this time.
        I deal with a large number of National voting people. Some are quite shocked at how badly they (National ) are doing and that they are blatantly lying about stuff like ACC. The thing is its to early for them to admit they should have stuck with Labour and Helen.Its not easy to admit they got it wrong.

        The other group of National supporters are the type of people that make no link between who they voted for and policy. The fail to see that the nice smiley Mr Key actually is killing their businesses. Its that whole but he is smiling he seems nice to me how could he possibly be bad disconnect.

        Its going to take a whole group of people about 3 years to realise they are living a 90s rerun.
        Its like watching a movie and taking 30 minutes to realise oh shit I have seen this before and it was crap you keep looking at the cover of the DVD packett going” oh shit surely not, how did I get this out again?”
        Finally you realise you picked it because of the same reason you picked it the last time, it looked good in its cover and the spiel sounded interesting.

        By this time the family is shitty at you and you are saying ” I wont get that out again” and they are reminding you that you said that the last time you got the same shitty DVD out.

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    1 week ago
  • Contemptuous
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    1 week ago
  • Zero Carbon: It’s not just a good idea, it’s the law
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  • Climate change will fuel bush fires
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    1 week ago
  • Participation rates
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    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Thank Winston
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    2 weeks ago
  • Illicit markets and Bali Booze
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    2 weeks ago
  • This is not what armed police are for
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Spain’s failed electoral gamble
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The astroturf party
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • How to cheat at university
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    2 weeks ago
  • How NZ was put on world maps using a transit of Mercury
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  • Georgina Beyer: We need to be able to talk without being offended
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    2 weeks ago
  • The anti-fluoride brigade won’t be erecting billboards about this study
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    2 weeks ago
  • Chosen To Rule? What Sort Of Christian Is Chris Luxon?
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    2 weeks ago
  • War of the worms
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    2 weeks ago
  • Marvelly shows us how to be a feminist without feminism
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    2 weeks ago
  • Out of the past – Tories to revive racist laws from the 16th century
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    2 weeks ago
  • 1000 of these now
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    2 weeks ago

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    New Zealand First are celebrating the announcement of an investment of $3.5 million into five new trapping devices. These are a range of bait and trap devices, all designed to be left unattended for long periods of time. NZ First conservation spokesperson Jenny Marcroft says that this latest development will ...
    20 hours ago
  • Cowboy clampers will be stymied
    Clayton Mitchell, Spokesperson for Consumer Affairs The ‘wheel clamping’ Bill that will cap clamper fees to $100 passed its third reading in Parliament today. New Zealand First welcomes The Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill to combat predatory wheel clamping behaviour in what is currently a largely unregulated business. Cowboy clampers are: gouging ...
    2 days ago
  • Mental Health Commission back on track
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    2 days ago
  • New Zealand’s key assets are not for sale: national interest test delivered
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    3 days ago
  • National interest test added to protect New Zealanders’ interests
    The Coalition Government is delivering on its promise to protect New Zealanders’ interests by applying a new national interest test to the sales of our most sensitive and high-risk assets to overseas buyers. Under current Overseas Investment Act (OIA) rules, assets such as ports and airports, telecommunications infrastructure, electricity and ...
    3 days ago
  • Electoral law breach allegations
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  • Wayne Brown hits back at critics: Ports of Auckland has to move
    The chairman of the Upper North Island Supply Chain Strategy (UNISCS) working group, Wayne Brown, has hit back at critics of his group’s recommendations to relocate the Ports of Auckland cargo operations to Whangarei’s deepwater port of Northport. The working group's recommendation to close Auckland waterfront to all but cruise ...
    4 days ago
  • Week That Was: Supporting our schools
    We're setting our young people up for success, investing in education around the country.  ...
    4 days ago
  • Kiwis to have their say on End of Life Choice
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  • Addressing miscarriages of justice
    Darroch Ball, Spokesperson for Justice New Zealand First is proud that a key Coalition Agreement commitment which will provide for a more transparent and effective criminal justice system has been realised. Legislation to establish the Criminal Cases Review Commission, an independent body focused on identifying and responding to possible miscarriages of ...
    1 week ago
  • Week That Was: Historic action on climate change
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    2 weeks ago
  • Tax-free deployments for Kiwi troops
    Darroch Ball, New Zealand First List MP A Member’s bill has been proposed that would provide income tax exemptions for all New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel while on operational deployment overseas. The Income Tax (Exemption for Salary or Wages of NZDF Members on Active Deployment) Amendment Bill proposed by New Zealand First ...
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  • A balanced Zero Carbon Bill passed
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    2 weeks ago
  • Paramedics’ status to be recognised
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    2 weeks ago

  • NZ economy in good shape amid global headwinds
    A major new report on the global economy shows New Zealand is in good shape amid increased global headwinds. The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) has just released its latest Economic Outlook. It shows the OECD group of economies is forecast to grow between 1.6% and 1.7% across ...
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  • Milestone of 1800 new Police officers
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    15 hours ago
  • PM appoints business leaders to APEC Business Advisory Council
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  • PM speech notes for Trans-Tasman Business Circle
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  • Otago Regional Council given deadline for freshwater management plan
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    20 hours ago
  • LGNZ Rural and Provincial Sector Speech
      Introduction Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This is the first opportunity I’ve had to speak to an LGNZ meeting since the local elections, and I’m delighted to see the fresh faces of newly elected mayors. To returning mayors here today, as well as chief ...
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  • New Zealand to attend G20 Foreign Ministers’ Meeting in Japan
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    21 hours ago
  • Ambassador to the European Union announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today announced the appointment of diplomat Carl Reaich as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the European Union. “The Ambassador to the EU is one of the most important and senior roles in New Zealand’s foreign service, advocating for New Zealand’s interests with the EU institutions,” Mr ...
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    22 hours ago
  • New inventions boost Predator Free 2050 effort
        Innovation and technology are behind five new tools to give nature a helping hand by helping eliminate predators, funded through the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF), Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage and Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher Tabuteau announced today. “The new tools will be trialled in ...
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    23 hours ago
  • APEC 2021 Bill passes first reading
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has welcomed the first reading of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation 2021 (APEC 2021) Bill in Parliament today. The temporary bill supports New Zealand’s security preparations for hosting the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Forum in 2021. “APEC is the leading economic and trade forum ...
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  • Making progress for our kids
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  • Māori women in business contribute to our economy, whānau and communities
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    2 days ago
  • Two schools on the way for Omokoroa
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    2 days ago
  • Families Package helps over 1 million New Zealanders in first year
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  • Clamp down on wheel clamping passes third reading
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    3 days ago
  • Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill passes first hurdle
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    3 days ago
  • Boosting border security with electronic travel authority – now over 500,000 issued
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    3 days ago
  • Plan of action to protect seabirds
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    3 days ago
  • National interest test added to overseas investment rules
    The Government is delivering on its promise to protect New Zealanders’ interests by applying a new national interest test to the sales of our most sensitive and high risk assets to overseas buyers. Associate Finance Minister David Parker said under current Overseas Investment Act rules, assets such as ports and ...
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    3 days ago
  • New housing part of support for Kaumātua
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  • Forestry helps prisoners into jobs
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  • Reform of public service a step closer
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    4 days ago
  • Donations scheme to relieve pressure on families
    The families of more than 416,000 students will be better off next year as their schools have signed up to the Government’s donations scheme, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. The scheme will see almost $62.5 million in additional Government funding go to schools nationwide next year. “I’m really pleased ...
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  • Further support for Samoan measles outbreak
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  • Speech to the Child Poverty Action Group 2019 Summit
      Fa’atalofa atu, malo e lelei, Kia ora koutou katoa Thank you to the Child Poverty Action Group for asking me to be here today to provide an update on some of the things that have been happening across my the social development portfolio.  Can I firstly acknowledge the vast ...
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  • Speech to the New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing Annual Conference
    ***Please check against delivery*** Good morning everyone. It is a pleasure to be with you this morning to open this year’s New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing Conference and AGM. Firstly, thank you Dr Alan Jackson, NZTR Chair for your introduction. And let us acknowledge also: The NZTR Board; Dean McKenzie, Chair ...
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  • Fairer rules for tenants and landlords
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    5 days ago
  • Two decades of marine protection celebrated at Te Tapuwae o Rongokako in Tairawhiti
    A marine conservation milestone - the 20th anniversary of the establishment of Te Tapuwae o Rongokako Marine Reserve - is being celebrated today at a community event in Tairāwhiti/East Coast attended by the Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “The creation of this marine reserve in November 1999 was a game ...
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    6 days ago
  • Food industry asked to step up fight against obesity
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  • Modern emergency care for Queenstown area
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    7 days ago
  • Contraception important for New Zealanders
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter says today’s release of sexual and reproductive health data reinforces the significance of the Government’s commitment to providing free or very low-cost contraception. The Ministry of Health today published statistics from the Ministry of Health’s 2014/15 Health Survey. “It is important people can make ...
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  • NZ medical staff and measles vaccines going to Samoa
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    1 week ago
  • Disability Action Plan 2019 – 2023
    “The new Disability Action Plan 2019–2023 moves us towards the inclusive and accessible New Zealand that this government has committed to,” Minister for Disability Issues Carmel Sepuloni announced today.  “The Action Plan was designed by disabled people, their family and supporters, the disability sector and government agencies. It will ensure ...
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  • Joint Statement – Third Singapore-New Zealand Defence Ministers’ Meeting
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  • Sexual Violence Legislation Bill has its first reading
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    1 week ago
  • Streamlined business invoicing a step closer
    Streamlined payment practices are a step closer for Kiwi businesses with the formal launch of New Zealand’s e-Invoicing framework. Small Business Minister Stuart Nash says the government has now established the structure to enable automated and direct data exchange between the accounting systems of buyers and sellers. “The move to ...
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    1 week ago
  • More frontline biosecurity officers protecting NZ
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    1 week ago
  • NZ space economy worth $1.69 billion
    A new report has found New Zealand’s space sector contributed $1.69 billion to the economy in the last financial year and employs 12,000 people, Minister for Economic Development Phil Twyford announced today. The report by Deloitte was commissioned by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and shows New Zealand ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Chair for Royal Commission into Abuse
    Judge Coral Shaw has been appointed as the new Chair of the Royal Commission into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions, Internal Affairs Minister Tracey Martin announced today. "Judge Shaw, who is currently one of the inquiry commissioners, is extremely well qualified for the ...
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  • Better mental health facilities for Palmerston North
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