Open Mike 14/12/2017

120 comments on “Open Mike 14/12/2017 ”

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1. eco maori 1

   14 December 2017 at 7:49 am

   Many thanks to all the Lady’s in the USA for exposing these neo liberal bigots who treat Lady’s like a object baby makers possession ECT they use racial tactics to gain Mana. These fossils need to be purged from power. Before Artifical Intelligents gives these fossils to much power. Now is the time to change OUR worlds views on humanity and mother earth to achieve a prosperous positive future for all OUR Mokos.. New Zealand is turning into the winds of change to a more humane society under the leadership of Jacinda there will be a lot of oberstical for her to tackle I no she will achieve her goals with the support of all the good intelligence humane Kiwi people of NEW ZEALAND.
   Ka pai
   • Ad 1.1

     14 December 2017 at 8:51 am

     +100 E M
   • OnceWasTim 1.2

     14 December 2017 at 11:02 am

     Ditto E M.
     Turning NZ into a more humane society though will take a bit of time.
     30 plus years of bullshit means that there are many that have grown up knowing nothing else , and a number who’ve benefited from the same bullshit (neo-liberalism).
   • weka 1.3

     14 December 2017 at 12:17 pm

     Nice one EM.
2. Morrissey 2

   14 December 2017 at 9:03 am

   GROPERS
   No. 18: Donald John Trump

   JILL HARTH: He groped me. He absolutely groped me. And he just slipped his hand there, touching my private parts.

   TEMPLE TAGGART: He turned to me and embraced me and gave me a kiss on the lips. And I remember being shocked and—because I would have just thought to shake somebody’s hand. But that was his first response with me.

   JESSICA LEEDS: It was a real shock when all of the sudden his hands were all over me. But it’s when he started putting his hand up my skirt, and that was it. That was it.

   KRISTIN ANDERSON: The person on my right, who, unbeknownst to me at that time, was Donald Trump, put their hand up my skirt. He did touch my vagina through my underwear.

   LISA BOYNE: As the women walked across the table, Donald Trump would look up under their skirt and, you know, comment on whether they had underwear or didn’t have underwear. I didn’t want to have to walk across the table. I wanted to get out of there.

   KARENA VIRGINIA: Then his hand touched the right inside of my breast. I felt intimidated, and I felt powerless.

   MINDY McGILLIVRAY: Melania was standing right next to him when he touched my butt.

   JESSICA DRAKE: When we entered the room, he grabbed each of us tightly in a hug and kissed each one of us without asking permission. After that, I received another call from either Donald or a male calling on his behalf, offering me $10,000. His actions are a huge testament to his character, that of uncontrollable misogyny, entitlement and being a sexual assault apologist.
   https://www.democracynow.org/2017/12/12/meet_the_miss_usa_contestant_accusing

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11959328

   “GROPERS” is presented by GroperWatch®, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

   No.1 George Herbert Walker Bush; No. 2 Bill O’Reilly; No. 3 Al Franken; No. 4 Robin Brooke; No. 5 Lester Beck; No. 6 Arnold Schwarzenegger; No. 7 Joe Biden; No. 8 Rolf Harris; No. 9 Harold Bloom; No. 10 Sir Jimmy Savile; No. 11 Dr Morgan Fahey; No.12 Prince Harry; No. 13 Bill Clinton; No.14 Judge Roy Moore; No. 15 Matt Lauer; No. 16 Richard Branson; No. 17 Warren Moon
3. Morrissey 3

   14 December 2017 at 9:29 am

   Doctors and nurses should not have to do this. In fact nobody should be ALLOWED to do this….

   http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/320496
   • JanM 3.1

     14 December 2017 at 9:37 am

     There is something deeply disturbing about this
   • jcuknz 3.2

     14 December 2017 at 9:56 am

     “Doctors and nurses should not have to do this” but neither should people be blocked from the right to have a skilled person do the job for them if they are worried they might botch the process and such a skilled person is willing.

     I note from the voting on the first reading of a current bill that a large proportion of Labour MPs voted against the matter even being discussed …. that is to be regretted IMO.
     • Morrissey 3.2.1

       14 December 2017 at 10:01 am

       Who are these “skilled” persons who will “do the job”? Abbatoir workers? Soldiers? Professional executioners like we had in this country until 1957?
       • jcuknz 3.2.1.1

         14 December 2017 at 10:18 am

         sactimonious crap! Obviously there will be doctors and nurses with compassion for those in pain for which medication is a poor relief.
         are you a vegetarian to denigrate those who work in freezing works? or the soldiers who keep you safe in times of oppression?
         • red-blooded 3.2.1.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 10:53 am

           Would there be something wrong in being a vegetarian, in your opinion?
           • jcuknz 3.2.1.1.1.1

             14 December 2017 at 4:07 pm

             Of course not, and I enjoy nicely cooked vegetables to predominate the dish when I eat out. One place I go to lavishly put three slices of roast meat and I now ask for just two and more veges 🙂
         • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.2

           14 December 2017 at 11:19 am

           jcuknz
           This is such a hard subject to keep people on a sane and thoughtful and compassionate line about. I suggest you don’t try analogies or comparisons or parallels with anything as it just gets people straying off thinking about the subject and coming up with silly comments.

           When anything serious is to be discussed I have found it is imperative to not introduce anything extra that could derail the discourse.
       • tracey 3.2.1.2

         14 December 2017 at 10:54 am

         Did you know that in recent Uni of Auckland survey of drs and nurses almost 80% would choose euthenasia for themselves.

         Lets stop putting our beliefs onto the medical profession and let them speak freely for themselves.
         • Tracey 3.2.1.2.1

           14 December 2017 at 11:07 am

           Edit to above
           80% was the public.

           The GP survey came out about 50% with numbers already assisting patients to die
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.2.2

           14 December 2017 at 11:07 am

           “Did you know that in recent Uni of Auckland survey of drs and nurses almost 80% would choose euthenasia for themselves.”

           Interesting..but is there a link to this research…in full?
           • tracey 3.2.1.2.2.1

             14 December 2017 at 11:08 am

             Editted above

             I read the nurses and dr survey which stated they would choose it for themselves when I did a Paper on Euthanasia last year. I read lots so mixing up tge studies but will try to find tge one with them choosing it for themselves.

             Nurses are my big concern cos they see tge pain, the families and have to deal with being asked by patients to help tgem die. Im my view a Law is only a small part we need to make sure resources go into assisting nurses deal with all of the above.
             • greywarshark …

               14 December 2017 at 11:31 am

               tracey
               Yes good point.

               I think there should be training and support for the medical and legal people who feel they can do this caring work, and be on a list of those who can be contacted as trained in the specialty. It is special dealing with dying people and even more so when there is some choice involved.
               I wouldn’t want to have to ask around if I decided to go in my own time.

               And always there is a backdrop of the unthinking conservatives and the rigid religious and the monetarised types who worry that someone, somewhere might organise wills and assets to get priority for themselves while others miss out (which already happens so it isn’t an unreal fancy.)
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               14 December 2017 at 12:49 pm

               This deep and extraordinarily sensitive report from Grant Gillett should be mandatory reading.

               https://www.asms.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/NZMA-euthanasia-Gillett-report-Final.pdf

               “The pause occurs when, despite acknowledging that death is perhaps the right option for one’s patient based on very good moral reasons, a doctor hesitates—under the joint prompting of a commitment to a version of the sanctity of life principle, and a sense of care or the individual human being who is the patient.

               That commitment may be particularly strong in the case of a new-born child who will, almost certainly, never recover to the point
               where it can respond to those around it or develop its human potential.

               But, even in such an extreme case, at the moment of recommending that no further intensive efforts be made to
               keep the child alive, one might experience the pause.

               This springs, we could say, from our being drawn into the nexus of human relationships that surround life, death and mortal illness—a context in which doctors are always entwined.

               Such decisions make us delve deeply into our character as moral agents…”
               • tracey …

                 14 December 2017 at 5:20 pm

                 This presupposes that doctors are not already making such decisions… who to resussitate, who to recommend for medication, surgery etc…
   • Whispering Kate 3.3

     14 December 2017 at 10:46 am

     Euthanasia should be kept out of all hospitals and health centres of all descriptions. This is not a job for doctors and nurses. Never should it be a burden for them, they have enough stress on their plates as it is. Hospitals will be tainted by the association of euthanasia and it will be a another worry for people who enter these places if they are ill. So called safe guards will be in place but over time the law will be widened for other areas of health. You’d better believe it – we have so little love for one another these days as it is, it will become oh so easy to widen the law. It is a hideous concept – smacks of Hitler’s cleansing of people he thought warranted it.

     I just cannot believe that it could eventually become the law – what a ghastly old world it is becoming.
     • weka 3.3.1

       14 December 2017 at 12:24 pm

       I’m generally in favour of cautious euthanasia law, but I also have concerns about safeguards and I don’t trust our legislation process to design really good laws here.

       Having euthanasia generally happening outside of hospitals (e.g. at home or in certain hospices) makes sense, but it would also limit health care for some people.
     • tracey 3.3.2

       14 December 2017 at 5:23 pm

       We need to ask doctors and nurses rather than put our views in them.
     • Foreign waka 3.3.3

       14 December 2017 at 6:23 pm

       I agree with you Kate, and lets look at the next generation – yes the one that does not see anything wrong by stomping on someones head or stoning a kitten to death.
       The human race is already on a path of brutalization, why hurry the process? Many “assume” that everybody will treat this issue under a humanitarian point of view.
       I doubt that the motivation of legalizing euthanasia is driven by ulterior motives but pursuing this leaves only one option – utter naivety.
       • Tracey 3.3.3.1

         14 December 2017 at 7:28 pm

         “yes the one that does not see anything wrong by stomping on someones head or stoning a kitten to death. ”

         That describes every generation not just the next one.
         • Foreign waka 3.3.3.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 8:03 pm

           Lets stay current Tracey. I do not remember that even 10-20 years ago such cruelties were common or indeed treated with a somewhat blase attitude.
           • Whispering Kate 3.3.3.1.1.1

             14 December 2017 at 9:05 pm

             I agree, everything today is based on its monetary worth – if it can’t pay its way then its of no use to our so called society. First it will be terminally ill, then it will be elderly who have outlived their usefulness, then it will be the young who are incapacitated by physical or mental illness who are getting in the way of the grind of making money.

             Just who is fooling who in this scheme of allowing terminally ill people to think they can play God, or whoever you believe in – and get their selfish way and end it as they think fit. Doesn’t it occur to them they are passing the buck onto another human being to do the deed for them. If they are so hellbent on finishing it then go and do it in their own good time and take the responsibility of it themselves. Leave our precious doctors and nurses to live the good life without being state sanctioned executioners.
   • adam 3.4

     14 December 2017 at 11:06 am

     Well, well, looking more and more like the T4 Program as time rolls on. Looking forward to the next step, let’s get rid of the unproductive people, the disabled, jews, wogs, blacks, gays, this euthanasia thing is working out so well. It’s a slippery slope, but hey we’re enlightened right, right, RIGHT!!!

     p.s.

     Just in case you need a reference to the T4 – program.

     https://www.britannica.com/event/T4-Program
     • Psycho Milt 3.4.1

       14 December 2017 at 11:45 am

       No, we don’t need a link to the T4 programme because any time there’s a mention of euthanasia some religious loon or generally-confused type will flag it as being in some way relevant to the discussion – which it isn’t.
       • adam 3.4.1.1

         14 December 2017 at 11:55 am

         So mobile vans, going around and door to door to perform euthanasia. Do you really think that the Nazis jumped right into the mass killing thing – no wait they got their incrementally.

         One big step in that was by getting people to accept that euthanasia was normal and OK. Go read some of the propaganda they produced at the beginning of the program. Odd thing is – you sound surprisingly like them in your attack dog mode.
         • Psycho Milt 3.4.1.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 12:32 pm

           The tone of annoyance is because commenters claiming this thing totally unlike the Nazis is just like the Nazis really gets on my wick.
           • adam 3.4.1.1.1.1

             14 December 2017 at 2:35 pm

             So the whole creating a strawman, then the personal attack was something else altogether then?

             And sorry, but the state killing people, falls into the category of totalitarianism – no matter how much you want to spin it.
             • tracey …

               14 December 2017 at 5:16 pm

               Do you have a view on abortion? On how Hospitals allocate resources, how waiting lists are weighted? How decisions on drug funding are made?
               • adam …

                 14 December 2017 at 5:45 pm

                 Abortion, choice – Let’s stop it being criminal or mental health.

                 Hospitals, the boards should be given more training, and allocations of funds. Removal of the massive build up middle management paper pushers which have infested the public service. A implementation of a system of effectiveness to get over the crisis in health from too many efficiency drives.

                 Drug funding, is as complex as is the whole drug approval. I’d like to see more patient advocate/voices in the whole drug funding, approval and application process. Happy with generics. Happy for us to be supplied from India. Would like to see more production in NZ.

                 A simple response tracey – Much more than that involved. If I was being a conservative anarchist. I say the only thing we need a state for is Health – a collective approach to health is necessary, as it is sensible.
                 • Tracey …

                   14 December 2017 at 5:47 pm

                   Thanks adam. Appreciate you answering.
             • Psycho Milt …

               14 December 2017 at 6:24 pm

               And sorry, but the state killing people, falls into the category of totalitarianism – no matter how much you want to spin it.

               That’s arguable, given that countries with rule of law can also have the death penalty.

               Let’s skip past that, though: you’re right, the state killing people is a bad idea. If anyone proposes it, feel free to raise the alarm. So far, no-one’s proposed it.
               • Tracey …

                 14 December 2017 at 7:25 pm

                 Rules out having Armed Forces too.
                 • adam …

                   14 December 2017 at 9:25 pm

                   Indeed it does.
               • adam …

                 14 December 2017 at 9:24 pm

                 As I said your proposition, and the same attack dog politics you use is repeating what happened in the mid 1930’s. Sorry you can’t see the patterns. Oh and by the way, the communist voting areas were the people who the nazi regime watched closely when they passed a surprising similar law. (yeah I read it) When they didn’t revolt the leadership breathed a sigh of relief.

                 Tell you what, the disabled in this country are going to oppose this bill. Because we know our history.
         • tracey 3.4.1.1.2

           14 December 2017 at 5:14 pm

           Are you saying that Seymour has National Socialist and Eugenic designs on NZ? I am no fan of his but have yet to see any such tendancies.

           One of my issues is some medical professionals are already finding ways to assist death. Is it better to leave this in the dark and pretend it isnt happening or find a way to regulate it?
           • adam 3.4.1.1.2.1

             14 December 2017 at 5:56 pm

             Look I’ve had one grandparent and one uncle die within the last two years. On both occasions, anti-anxiety drugs in large doses were administered and family were in the room. I did not see any suffering in my uncle’s case. And my mother and Aunt both said their was no suffering in my grandmother’s case.

             The doctor did not kill/murder the patient. The family member died of natural causes. And they did not suffer.

             We are opening a door to a slippery slope. So NO we should not regulate how we murder people – at any time. We should view life as precious. What the difference once we accept killing old people – to accepting the infirm, then a few years later the deaf and dumb because, you know they don’t have great lives and we are relieving their suffering as well. Maybe the mentally unhinged, it will save on cost and they not really here anyway. It’s happened before, and it’s why I keep bringing up T4.

             So contrary to Psycho Milt and his assumption that people are rational and nice, I think people in power are nasty and vicious so handing them a loaded gun is utter stupidity.
             • Psycho Milt …

               14 December 2017 at 6:25 pm

               Good job that what’s being proposed is voluntary euthanasia and not the involuntary type then, eh?
               • adam …

                 14 December 2017 at 9:17 pm

                 You know no history – it’s frightening.
             • Tracey …

               14 December 2017 at 7:27 pm

               You advocate for the abolishment of our Armed Forces, yes?

               Have you read this Bill? I am beginning to wonder. By all means oppose it but you seem to be opposing a notion of end of life rather than what is actually being proposed.
               • adam …

                 14 December 2017 at 9:16 pm

                 I oppose the door being opened.
     • Bill 3.4.2

       14 December 2017 at 5:59 pm

       So see. Not really caring if someone who does not want a baby opts for abortion, I could maybe have to start having a think about it (from a detached distance) if people who do want a baby start to opt for an abortion ‘just because’ it’s not the right ‘type’ of baby.

       Can of worms and all that.
       • adam 3.4.2.1

         14 December 2017 at 9:15 pm

         Do you mean Female infanticide and Disabled infanticide?
         • Bill 3.4.2.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 10:01 pm

           Well no. Because that entails killing infants, not aborting pregnancies.

           But yes, I’m thinking in cases of aborting just because the foetus is female – or has, by genetic testing or whatever, a predicted higher chance of developing or being x, y or z.

           But when I say “I could maybe have to start having a think about it (…) if”, I really do mean from a detached and purely intellectual level.

           When it comes right down to it, I don’t believe the state should play a role. But I say that in relation to also not believing that nuclear family units are sane or sustainable. So whatever decisions may be made, I’d say they should be made at an individual/communal level on whatever basis, or by whatever measure all of the people within that community have agreed upon.

           In short, the way this world is arranged is fucked up, and so the situation we have to try to make decisions from within are (how to say) ‘less than optimal’.
   • Psycho Milt 3.5

     14 December 2017 at 11:48 am

     Doctors and nurses should not have to do this.

     The very first line in your linked article says this service is for people “…whose doctors have refused to participate in assisted suicide.” So, no, doctors and nurses should not have to do this and aren’t being made to, which prompts me to ask “What’s your point?”
     • weka 3.5.1

       14 December 2017 at 12:22 pm

       I was wondering that too. I assume that for the NZ legislation no-one will be forced to provide euthanasia either (someone can correct me if I am wrong). Just like surgeons who have ethical objections aren’t forced to perform abortions.
       • tracey 3.5.1.1

         14 December 2017 at 5:22 pm

         Nurses can also refuse to assist in abortions on moral grounds.

         This is problematic in areas with low medical support.
     • tracey 3.5.2

       14 December 2017 at 5:21 pm

       Which article?
       • Psycho Milt 3.5.2.1

         14 December 2017 at 6:21 pm

         The one he links to in comment 3 that I was replying to: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/320496
     • Foreign waka 3.5.3

       14 December 2017 at 6:34 pm

       Psycho Milt – here is a point to ponder. If someone wants to die, they can.
       Just don’t get someone else to have to carry the burden for the rest of their lives to be a murderer.
       Perhaps best to ask soldiers – they have a lot of experience.
       http://www.bbc.com/news/world-13687796
       • Tracey 3.5.3.1

         14 December 2017 at 7:24 pm

         “If someone wants to die they can”

         The point is many cannot.

         Some Doctors and some Nurses already do assist patient deaths so the notion that this is a fresh burden is erroneous.

         See my post above about not just passing a law but ensuring resources are put into supporting those enacting that Law.

         Soldiers sign up to be “murderers” although they do not meet that definition and are specifically ruled out of the Crimes Act so yoyr use of that word is a straw man.
         • Foreign waka 3.5.3.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 8:46 pm

           The psychological results of killing someone are real unless that someone is a psychopath. Many soldiers actually “follow orders” due to being otherwise prosecuted themselves. We are talking about people whose emotional well being is influenced by an act of the ultimate violation of natural law. If a person is “hardened”, murder of the vulnerable will have no ethical or moral consequence to their mind. And no rule of the crimes act will negate this.

           Tracey, I do not deny that some people feel that they need to end their lives and I understand that in some instances doctors and/or nurses help with “chasing” the process when pain is becoming uncontrollable.
           However, if a person is able to express his/her wishes to die due to incurable illness and pain, and equipment is provided for that person to end their lives themselves – who am I to judge. What I do vehemently oppose is, that another party is being asked to take on the task and have to live with the consequential burden.
           I am certainly not in favor to have euthanasia practiced on a patient that is non responsive, in a coma, brain damaged – that individual would at this point not be able to decide. Their family might want to share time with them, look after them etc. If there is no one or any or their relatives won’t look after them it should not be just a case of getting the bed freed up.
           And of cause there is always the possibility that any possessions are deemed a free for all if only…
           There are far more cons than pro’s on this issue.
4. The Chairman 4

   14 December 2017 at 9:38 am

   Instead of supporting an existing Green Party Bill, reports indicate Labour will introduce its own legislation. Raising questions on whether or not they will allow herbal or botanical cannabis to be used for medicinal use.

   Surprisingly, the Greens have been silent on the matter.

   The Greens are failing to utilise their position to speak out, thus take lead, build and apply public pressure.

   Not one press release on the matter on their website.
   • marty mars 4.1

     14 December 2017 at 9:45 am

     What are the differences in the Bills?
     • The Chairman 4.1.1

       14 December 2017 at 9:57 am

       The Greens Bill can be found here: https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/BILL_74308/misuse-of-drugs-medicinal-cannabis-and-other-matters

       As far as I’m aware, Labour’s Bill is still being formulated.

       However, here’s a news report on the matter: http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/12/medical-cannabis-legislation-to-get-rolling-next-week.html
   • Draco T Bastard 4.2

     14 December 2017 at 9:51 am

     Why are you constantly attacking the Greens?
     • The Chairman 4.2.1

       14 December 2017 at 10:05 am

       Because they are constantly failing to speak up on a number of issues.

       Just because they only secured 6% doesn’t mean they can now throw in the towel and give up the fight.
       • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1

         14 December 2017 at 10:14 am

         Although the Greens have their own policy in regards to cannabis use all that was agreed upon in the C&S was a referendum on personal use.

         Labour promised medical use to be legalised and it looks like they’re doing that.

         The Greens are in favour of that as a step in the right direction.

         Oh, and that bill you refer to wasn’t a Green Party bill at all but a members bill.

         On this, you have nothing to complain about.
         • solkta 4.2.1.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 10:24 am

           Members Bills put in by Green MPs are Green Party Bills. They don’t allow MPs to put forward stuff that is not policy.
         • The Chairman 4.2.1.1.2

           14 December 2017 at 10:50 am

           Yes, a member’s Bill put up by a Green Party member.

           While it may be a step in the right direction, if it fails to allow for people to grow their own it’s going to fall far short of expectations and what many medicinal users require.

           And as indications suggest it will fall short, this is the time to speak up and apply public pressure to help ensure it doesn’t. Yet, the Greens seem to be MIA (by their silence) on an issue one would expect they would be leading the charge, hence the complaint.
           • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1.2.1

             14 December 2017 at 12:22 pm

             While it may be a step in the right direction, if it fails to allow for people to grow their own it’s going to fall far short of expectations and what many medicinal users require.

             Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Have to see the bill first. I suspect that all three parties are discussing it and are probably keeping quiet until they’ve come to some decisions.

             And as indications suggest it will fall short, this is the time to speak up and apply public pressure to help ensure it doesn’t.

             Then organise a petition.

             Also note that the Greens do have an agreement for a referendum on recreational use of marijuana. If that goes through, as I suspect it will, then there’s going to have to be laws regarding growing your own.

             An interesting point on that is that NZ is the only place in the world where it’s legal for anyone to own a still.

             My hope is that, when they legalise it for medical use, they also put in several million per year to develop and produce the drugs. Northland would have a major economic boost.
       • solkta 4.2.1.2

         14 December 2017 at 10:27 am

         There is really nothing to say until Labour release their bill. The Greens bill is still there so the issue is not going anywhere and Parliament will be forced to address it.
         • The Chairman 4.2.1.2.1

           14 December 2017 at 10:53 am

           I disagree. The time to start applying pressure is now, before they fully formulate and release their Bill.
       • garibaldi 4.2.1.3

         14 December 2017 at 10:39 am

         It’s like this TC. If the Greens pushed this issue the Natz would persecute them for being a bunch of ne’er do well dopeheads ,just like they always have.
         In the eyes of NZ’s immature media the Greens would thus become a one issue party to be scorned relentlessly (nothing new in that though, it would just be rigorously renewed infantilism, which is personified in Hosking et al).
         Methinks it would be wise for the Greens to stick to the two objectives…sustainable future and social justice.
         • The Chairman 4.2.1.3.1

           14 December 2017 at 11:01 am

           “It’s like this TC. If the Greens pushed this issue the Natz would persecute them for being a bunch of ne’er do well dopeheads ,just like they always have.”

           They may try, yet public opinion is vastly against them (the Nats) on this one. Therefore, it is unlikely to be successful.

           “In the eyes of NZ’s immature media the Greens would thus become a one issue party to be scorned relentlessly…”

           Which is why they also need to be more vocal in their other core policy areas, ie sustainable future and social justice.
           • Rosemary McDonald 4.2.1.3.1.1

             14 December 2017 at 11:25 am

             “Which is why they also need to be more vocal in their other core policy areas, ie sustainable future and social justice.”

             And merely legalising medical cannabis, without allowing consented persons to grow and process their own plant material, is not going to be sustainable or just.

             http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11924430

             Its just going to allow the unscrupulous to exploit the suffering of others when there is a much cheaper and accessible alternative.

             We are a nation of home gardeners. Why not allow us to grow our own plants… the variety specific to our needs… and process it ourselves?

             Folk are doing it anyway.
     • McFlock 4.2.2

       14 December 2017 at 4:00 pm

       because the concern-o-bot got shit for concentrating too much on Labour.
5. jcuknz 5

   14 December 2017 at 9:40 am

   I read recently that people re-cycling our rubbish wanted clean rubbish and soiled rubbish merely went to the tip. I wonder if anybody had researched the cost to the planet of folk washing-cleaning rubbish before it is put out for re-cycling compared to just being sent to the tip?
   My current bete noir is the take-away which gives me food in a nice [I assume recycled] brown cardboard box which gets soiled by the food and dressing so conflicts with the need for clean rubbish.
   I had hoped that the recycling process would burn or otherwise get rid of the ‘soil’ similar to re-cycled aluminium where one skims off the slag before pouring into a mould … something I did in past years.
6. Morrissey 6

   14 December 2017 at 9:48 am

   Who is more contemptible here: Narcissus or his groveling interviewer?

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgAiQISIqoU
   • OnceWasTim 6.1

     14 December 2017 at 11:11 am

     Unfortunately many US Americans really don’t get it do they? Exceptionalism at its worst.
     You should try renouncing USA citizenship and see the shit and threats people have to go through.
7. mauī 7

   14 December 2017 at 9:59 am

   TOP gone to pot. With their leadership gone I think its all over for the Opportunities Party.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99839970/gareth-morgan-wont-lead-top-into-2020-election
   • tracey 7.1

     14 December 2017 at 11:15 am

     Maybe he will do what Alan Gibbs did and appoint a puppet or two?
     • tc 7.1.1

       14 December 2017 at 12:54 pm

       Plenty about….if only judith was more compliant eh.
   • cleangreen 7.2

     14 December 2017 at 11:43 am

     Maui, 100% there.

     Gareth Morgan is – (off his “top”)
     • rod 7.2.1

       14 December 2017 at 4:56 pm

       Maybe Gareth is going to concentrate on his cat crusade ?
   • AB 7.3

     14 December 2017 at 12:22 pm

     Of the rich man’s vanity parties we have seen to date, only Bob Jones’ “New Zullon” party has been a success. And its objectives were just to kill Muldoon so a far-right infiltrated Labour Party could take power in 1984. It was never intended as a long-term prospect in those far-off FPP days.
     Overall, this is a pretty good result for our democracy.
     • Ed 7.3.1

       14 December 2017 at 9:21 pm

       Part of the coup d’état that took over in 1984.
       And we still live in that totalitarian neoliberal state 33 years later.
   • weka 7.4

     14 December 2017 at 12:30 pm

     Morgan is staying on as leader in the meantime, but won’t front the Party at the next election.

     In his resignation letter, former deputy leader Geoff Simmons said now was a crucial time for the party.

     “Over the next 6-9 months it will develop a group of potential leaders to lead them into the next election.

     “Much like the All Blacks, any political team benefits from strong competition for any role. Stepping back from my co-Deputy Leader role will encourage new leaders to emerge, which will be good for the party.”

     Simmons said he did not currently have the necessary energy to continue in the role as deputy leader, but said if he felt he had regained energy when the time came to pick a new leader, he would throw his hat in the ring.

     Ok, my estimation for Simmons just dropped a notch. They really have a culture of a political party being something you create like a business rather than being something that needs to be built from the ground up. I hope they fall over, I want less of this kind of authoritarian, top down stuff in parliament, not more.
     • weka 7.4.1

       14 December 2017 at 12:32 pm

       Meanwhile, Waitaki candidate Kevin Neill said under current leadership, it was “untenable to have an open, transparent discussion on not only how to create policies, but whether to change them”.

       It is understood Morgan called a party meeting during the weekend, in order to take stock of the situation, but a number of people were excluded, including Neill and Hammond-Doube.

       Neill said he could not cope with the “dictator-style leadership”, and said he believed nothing would change after Morgan stepped down as leader – he would still take a lead in making decisions.

       There was a place for a party like TOP in New Zealand politics, but a different leadership system was essential, he said.

       etc.
       • tracey 7.4.1.1

         14 December 2017 at 5:07 pm

         I wonder that some of them do not move to another party that seems to share many of their goals on

         Fairer tax system
         Welfare
         Environment

         😉
     • tracey 7.4.2

       14 December 2017 at 5:06 pm

       No energy after such a short time?
     • AB 7.4.3

       14 December 2017 at 5:28 pm

       “I want less of this kind of authoritarian, top down stuff ”
       Yep that certainly, plus any mention of the All Blacks has to set off the “whoop whoop, shallow, self-interested bollocks about to follow” sirens.
       If Gareth was genuinely interested in public policy he would have joined the political party he finds most congenial and tried to influence policy formation. That fact that he’s too immodest to do such a thing shows we’re all better off if he stays out of politics for good.
       • tracey 7.4.3.1

         14 December 2017 at 5:37 pm

         Yeah. Pretty sure no All Black gives up after 6 months
8. savenz 8

   14 December 2017 at 9:59 am

   On the Kids Can charity – have to say I’m against private charities being used to do government work. Modern charities are too glossy and glamorise poverty and take donations from ordinary people and taxpayers but spend it on marketing and staff to promote themselves and increase the donations.

   There is a place for private charities but increasingly they are being used by corporates and so forth for their own lobbying and agendas. Disney has a charity that they expected their employees to donate to lobby for TPPA for example. The Clinton Foundation where other countries are expected to give taxpayer money and used the donations to politically to influence.

   The rise of corporates like countdown and ASB collecting money for charity and then it looks like they are the ones being generous – NOT the ordinary people paying in the money. They they give a big cheque and everyone things they are responsible community businesses. In the old days ASB for example made donations with their own money. Not just being collection agencies.

   Corporates controlling charities lose the whole point of the charity. The Red Cross Raised Half a Billion Dollars for Haiti ­and Built Six Homes.
   https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes
   • jcuknz 8.1

     14 December 2017 at 10:10 am

     I see two main problems here … firstly folk object to taxes and secondly the waste by governments/charities as they feed themselves rather than helping those in need.
     The simple answer is not to donate but to give to those who you know personally will benefit.
     • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1

       14 December 2017 at 10:24 am

       Which will, of course, maintain high poverty levels.

       Far better for the government to eliminate poverty altogether but I’m sure that the capitalists will complain about that – as they did back in the 1980s and 90s and their delusional idea that high benefits stopped people from going to work.
       • jcuknz 8.1.1.1

         14 December 2017 at 3:58 pm

         Since there are no jobs, or very few, for the unskilled it means poverty is likely to remain with us for the forseable future I am afraid.
         Welfare probably does cause those who have not learnt the work ethic to avoid work but this is a problem with the system that encourages folk to want the moon with TV shows and such like but doesn’t provide the jobs to make it possible.
         Plus of course there is the tendency of couples to have more children than they can provide for.
         For years I have thought that world wide socialism with security for all in their old age would reduce the need for couples to have children, lots of them, to look after them in their old age. Education brings reduced childbearing as the educated realise the huge cost of having a child impacts seriously on their standard of living, particularly when there are few jobs paying well, or anything more than subsistence these days.
         • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.1.1

           14 December 2017 at 4:12 pm

           Since there are no jobs, or very few, for the unskilled it means poverty is likely to remain with us for the forseable future I am afraid.

           And so the government should make upskilling freely available to them.

           And, to be honest, I don’t think it’s lack of skills that’s keeping many in poverty. Poverty is a direct result of capitalism. As Adam Smith said, you need 500 poor people to have one rich person.

           Without poor people who can be forced to work for the rich then there wouldn’t be any rich because they’d only have the fruits of their own labours rather than the fruits of everyone else’s labour.

           Which is, of course, why National always attack beneficiaries and makes them worse off.

           Welfare probably does cause those who have not learnt the work ethic to avoid work but this is a problem with the system that encourages folk to want the moon with TV shows and such like but doesn’t provide the jobs to make it possible.

           All indications are that that is a result of our education system instilling the wrong motivations in people.

           Plus of course there is the tendency of couples to have more children than they can provide for.

           No there isn’t.

           Basically, you’re pulling out all the old BS that National uses to denigrate and attack good people.
         • tracey 8.1.1.1.2

           14 December 2017 at 5:10 pm

           Funny how Super, which is higher than other benefits, hasnt led to all retired ceasing work.

           You having children and no work ethic generalisation is largely mythical. Do you also tar all company directors with the brush of those who commit fraud?

           Do you have disdain for those businesses claiming holidays as deductions when tgere is no business component, or meals out? Or do cash jobs?
   • savenz 8.2

     14 December 2017 at 11:26 am

     Not sure how true but some commentator on daily blog says Kids Can has 4 million in cash reserves but going wah wah about losing 350k.

     Spend the 4 million on the kids don’t keep it in the bank, Kids Can! No wonder there are so many kids in poverty if their money is kept in the bank.

     I Guess corporate dimwits in the media like Garner can’t be bothered doing basic research before opening his mouth.

     https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/13/are-we-really-sad-kidscan-is-getting-dumped-really/

     I have to say I’m impressed the government is cracking down on all this stuff. Natz gave Kids Can over a million but their private charity approach threw more and more kids into poverty.
     • jcuknz 8.2.1

       14 December 2017 at 3:44 pm

       I read that it was 5 million and think they are just bellyacking.
   • greywarshark 8.3

     14 December 2017 at 11:41 am

     Thanks savenz that was interesting. and timely as these charities are often just another way of government monetising and privatising their work and services in their expected role in our so-called modern state.

     You are coming up with great info and ideas. Merry Christmas and take a break over Christmas just being positive and self-oriented for a while so as to recharge for 2018?
     • savenz 8.3.1

       14 December 2017 at 3:47 pm

       Merry Christmas to you too, greywarshark and to all off us sharing ideas to try to make things better and fairer.

       The most positive news is that all who voted and achieved the change of government. At last a new start and new hope for 2018!
   • DH 8.4

     14 December 2017 at 11:48 am

     I cut way back on my charity donations for much the same reason; too little of the money was reaching those who needed it.

     It’s all a bit too reminiscent of the much maligned trickle down theory isn’t it; the flood of donations reduced to a trickle by the time it reaches its intended destination.
     • greywarshark 8.4.1

       14 December 2017 at 1:00 pm

       DH
       I think it is worse than the trickle down aspect. It is the polity withering through deliberate inaction from the government, from the respect for all society to a deliberately underfunded class with deliberately withheld jobls (by allocating them to poor immigrants) that then is largely left to the whims of those wanting to start a business in the not-for-profit charity sector with little tax to pay.

       The strugglers then become a human herd for these sharp-eyed petty bourgeoisie to profit from.
9. JanM 9

   14 December 2017 at 10:00 am

   https://www.rt.com/uk/412667-corbyn-chomsky-peace-prize-geneva/

   And as Wake Up NZ says, no mention in our news either – disgraceful!!
   • adam 9.1

     14 December 2017 at 10:59 am

     Another example of the corporate press, and controlling the message. Anyone who thinks we have a free press at this point in history, is deeply deluded.
   • Andre 9.2

     14 December 2017 at 11:37 am

     Uhhh, maybe because that particular peace prize is utterly inconsequential? It seems Corbyn himself didn’t even think it significant enough to ever mention it.

     https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/7xwxg9/what-the-silence-over-jeremy-corbyns-peace-prize-tells-us-about-new-left-wing-media
     • adam 9.2.1

       14 December 2017 at 11:41 am

       And yet…

       http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4331920/PM-Theresa-unveils-new-shorter-hair-style.html

       https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3135251/theresa-may-sits-for-vogue-cover-shoot-taken-by-photography-legend-annie-leibovitz/
     • SpaceMonkey 9.2.2

       14 December 2017 at 1:12 pm

       Umm… Jeremy Corbyn does not strike me as the sort of character to go running around saying “look at me”. The absence of the news in the MSM is without a shadow of doubt the corporate-owned media doing its thing for themselves.
10. adam 10

    14 December 2017 at 10:53 am

    The west and it’s lies. Your comfortable life is predicated on the torture, death and exploitation of the third world. Funny how no one talks about that much…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoB10ddVC0Y&ab_channel=TeleSUREnglish
    • OnceWasTim 10.1

      14 December 2017 at 11:29 am

      We’ve been doing it here @adam over the past decade. Shoddy PTE’s and temporary work visas, offshore fishing boats, cash-for-work schemes, et al.
      It’s been an industry that, thank your God, is now coming under scrutiny (sort of).
      Of course the enablers will go unpunished, whilst the exploited will usually have lost almost everything – except perhaps their dignity.
      • adam 10.1.1

        14 December 2017 at 11:38 am

        We the west needs its people to exploit. At least here we did not gun down people from the PTE’s and temporary work visas, offshore fishing boats, cash-for-work schemes, et al.
        • OnceWasTim 10.1.1.1

          14 December 2017 at 11:43 am

          I agree, and no we didn’t, but in at least a few cases, we completely fleeced them of their ability to support themselves. (so much more seemly than just putting a gun to their head). We should feel oh so proud of ourselves we exploited them in such a civilised manner
          • adam 10.1.1.1.1

            14 December 2017 at 11:51 am

            You watched the video right? Whole villages just lost their livelihoods, hundreds if not thousands of people.

            You’re right though, economic thuggery can have a veneer of civility, but we should call it what it is – fleecing.
            • OnceWasTim 10.1.1.1.1.1

              14 December 2017 at 4:56 pm

              I will when I can adam – not on current access though during business hours. However I’ve been following her since her RT days.
        • cleangreen 10.1.1.2

          14 December 2017 at 11:49 am

          Labour is coming for exploiters and need to be aggressive also.

          Why should we accept to live well off others pain and suffering?

          If so, we are nothing more than wild animals.

          “Do to others, as you would have them do unto you”,

          As we were taught from the scriptures.
          • OnceWasTim 10.1.1.2.1

            14 December 2017 at 5:04 pm

            Agreed CG and not fast enough.
            The bad news is that neo-liberalism is so insidious it’s cultural, political, economic and to many – religious. It trumps most religions from Catholicism (as we see with Bullshit Bill) to Sikhism (as we see by some fellow Sikhs prepared to rip off others. (Not looking at you Kanwaljit – not much anyway)
    • tc 10.2

      14 December 2017 at 1:03 pm

      Lets not forget the humanitarian crises in yemen and oman as a result of sponsored conflicts.
      • adam 10.2.1

        14 December 2017 at 2:38 pm

        Please put up some links tc, I will watch or read any that you do post.

        But you are right, we should not forget.
      • OnceWasTim 10.2.2

        14 December 2017 at 5:15 pm

        +100
        Pretty much the result of past and present empires and their proxies.
        I think there’s something playing on Aljzaeera atm giving an historical perspective
        ( Maybe AJ )
11. cleangreen 11

    14 December 2017 at 11:52 am

    NZ Government must now use Rail freight as it will greatly reduce our use and dependence on fossil fuels that cause climate change, and will save our cost of paying for “carbon credits” also.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/arctic-climate-change-report-sea-temperature-rise-melting-ice-caps-polar-environment-global-warming-a8106161.html

    1. Environment
    Arctic climate ‘report card’ reveals ‘rapid and dramatic changes’ to the polar environment
    • tc 11.1

      14 December 2017 at 12:59 pm

      Yes theres some hard to watch clips of polar bears starving to death as they cant find food anymore
12. joe90 12

    14 December 2017 at 12:09 pm

    Hard to believe super serum and floorman would get this one wrong.

    /

    A forged document accusing the top Democrat in the Senate of sexual harassment copied language verbatim from a real sexual-harassment complaint filed against Rep. John Conyers.

    On Tuesday afternoon, right-wing social media personalities Charles Johnson and Mike Cernovich boasted of obtaining a document that would put a senator out of a job.

    “Michael Cernovich & I are going to end the career of a U.S. Senator,” Johnson posted on Facebook on Monday.

    The senator was Minority Leader Charles Schumer of New York, Axios first reported.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/mike-cernovich-chuck-johnson-alt-right-hyped-anti-schumer-forgery-that-plagiarized-conyers-complaint
13. eco maori 13

    14 December 2017 at 4:49 pm

    The seven clowns
    1 Gissmuppet he started all this and is a bigot and thinks he can hide from eco
    2 Dopey he think he is the best hunter and likes to leave dead opposum on the road and burning out tyres.
    3 Nobby he’s one of my neo liberal neighbour he thinks he can impose his ideals on the rest of the neighbourhood eco made him feel inadequate about one of his hobbies.
    4 sneezy he talks with a lisp and thinks he’s a leader loves the camera I taught him sign language at the caltex
    5 Shonky he worships money an one will find him sniffing around an deal to steal money
    6 bullysheit well you can’t believe a word he says and he’s a alcoholic
    7 dilldo he is a bigot and love to see our valuerable people on the streets and loves to see the poor people starving.
    All these clowns have one thing in common they will do anything to see ECO lose his Mana and they are all bigots.
    I no you are bribing the man with two names???? Who stole my Mana when Mama died PS I have a witness who won’t lie under oath to confirm this fact so he is racist bigot he name me the white honky bastard. I will be able to cut to threads all the contracted liars you have one way or another credit. bility or conflict of interest that WHALE was playing up today but ECO will get it to heal soon. Ana to kai
14. Penny Bright 14

    14 December 2017 at 6:47 pm

    Any mainstream media asking these questions?

    “Subject: Auckland Transport CAS-642483-D1P0N4 – Transdev and CE Information

    Dear Ms Bright

    We acknowledge receipt of your open letter to Mr Shane Ellison dated 11 December 2017, requesting the following information:

    1) How much have PRIVATE transport provider Transdev received in PUBLIC subsidies from Auckland Transport, on an annual basis since Transdev were awarded the AT rail contract to run Auckland urban passenger trains.

    2) How much have PRIVATE transport provider Transdev received in PUBLIC subsidies from New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) on an annual basis since Transdev were awarded the AT rail contract to run Auckland urban passenger trains.

    3) How much money have you, Shane Ellison, as new CEO of AT, the delegated authority to spend on awarding contracts.

    4) A copy of Auckland Transport’s ‘corruption risk assessment’ – (or the like) regarding your appointment as CEO of Auckland Transport (AT), given that you have just left the employment of Transdev (Australia), and Transdev have the AT contract to run Auckland urban passenger trains.

    We are processing your request according to the provisions of the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act 1987 (LGOIMA). Under the Act, a response must be provided within 20 working days of receipt of a request, however, due to the Christmas holiday period set by the Office of the Ombudsman, a response will be provided to you by 30 January 2018. This is the maximum response time and we will endeavour to respond to you sooner.
    ….”

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-Corruption whistle-blower’.

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