Open mike 15/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 15th, 2022 - 150 comments
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150 comments on “Open mike 15/01/2022 ”

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  1. gsays 1
    15 January 2022 at 8:26 am

    I am curious as to what data, what studies, what information Medsafe's experts used to decide it was safe to vaccinate children with Pfizer’s product?

    • KJT 1.1
      15 January 2022 at 9:09 am

      I suspect over 8 million vaccinations to adults, in NZ alone, with serious side effects in less than double figures, for one.

      Compelling real world evidence, that the vaccination is as harmless as anything gets.

      Compared with the potential, proven, harm to children from covid, and the harm from their Teachers, Carers, elderly relatives, food suppliers etc, getting covid.

      Unless like some on here,, you think every sneeze after covid vaccination, is because of the vaccination.

      • Fran 1.1.1
        15 January 2022 at 10:09 am

        Wow. Just wow, only a few adverse reactions? Look at the medsafe data, which they themselves say is only about 5% of what actually happens. I too would love to see the data that medsafe used as the trial for the children's version was small and only for a short time.

        • KJT 1.1.1.1
          15 January 2022 at 10:30 am

          How many times do we need to say?.

          "Correlation is not causation".

          If vaccination was "causing all this harm" don't you think it would be showing up in hospitalisations and excess deaths?

          Where are we keeping all these "vaccine injured people"?

          Meanwhile. Delta cases in NZ are dropping, despite easing restrictions. Because vaccination is working.

          • Fran 1.1.1.1.1
            15 January 2022 at 10:38 am

            Again wow. You are aware of the heart issues surely. The MOH has put out an advisary letter about them. These people are turning up in our hospitals. In this case correlation does equal causation. Do we want this for our children?

            • KJT 1.1.1.1.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 10:45 am

              Do you really want hundreds of children or their carers, sick or dying of COVID like the UK and USA?

              The anti vaccers cognitive dissonance is mind boggling.

              • Fran …
                15 January 2022 at 10:52 am

                Again wow. Where are you getting this from. Worldwide children are not dieing of covid. The Danish, German and UK data tells us this. Why would we put children at a known risk of heart etc. issues when only those with comorbidities are in any way at risk from the disease. Why would we not just vaccinate those at risk rather than create risk with mass vaccination?

                • woodart …
                  15 January 2022 at 11:26 am

                  and wow to you. why would we educate everybody when only some want to learn? why not just educate those with potential ,rather than create knowledge with mass education.??

                • locus …
                  15 January 2022 at 1:22 pm

                  Worldwide, children are dying from Covid

                  Since 1 April 2020 in the USA alone (CDC official record of US deaths of children from COVID)

                  • 841 children have died from Covid
                  • and more than half a million children have needed medical care from long Covid

                  16,386,758 (more than 16 million) 12 to 18 year old in the US have received a COVID vaccination, and 7,844,160 (more than 7 million) 5 to 11 year olds have received a vaccination. (CDC official record of children who have received Covid vaccination in the USA)

                  24 million children in the US have received a Covid vaccination and only two deaths of children have been reported to VAERS. Both of these children were in fragile health before vaccination and had multiple chronic medical conditions. Independent investigation of these two cases did not suggest a causal link between death and vaccination

                  These are the FACTS from verified sources reported to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)

                  Multiple independently verified studies have shown significant reduction in severity of Covid symptoms, hospitalisation rate and deaths if you have received a Covid vaccination.

                  The unvaccinated who get Covid infect far more people, require more hospital intervention and this is driving some nation's health systems into the ground. We do not want this in New Zealand, which is why we are heading towards 95% vaccination of eligible people.

                  People who can't get their head around how the VAERS system works are certainly not people whose views on vaccination are rational.

                  And I am horrified that there are anti vaxxers who are arguing against vaccination of children. We should not let these misinformed people propose a herd immunity experiment on our children

                  • woodart …
                    15 January 2022 at 2:20 pm

                    anti-vaxxers are fighting a losing battle, ignoring history, science, common sense, empathy for others ,etc, etc, armed only with outrage, selfishness and stupidity. you can educate the stupid, but it doesnt stick. however, we do have a duty to these people, as fellow humans. they dont even understand anologies. the sad but interesting thing about ignoring medical science is you become a statistic and subject for autopsy earlier than usual.

      • gsays 1.1.2
        15 January 2022 at 1:21 pm

        Ok, 2 years use. Apart from that a long-winded ‘I don’t know’.

        I part company with your view of harmless.

        Where did you do your mind reading course? You are overdue for a refresher, or should that be a booster?

        You can pop your Pfizer pom poms away for now,

        • Peter 1.1.2.1
          15 January 2022 at 4:12 pm

          You said you were curious as to what data, what studies, what information Medsafe's experts used to decide it was safe to vaccinate children with Pfizer’s product.

          They have a website which gives contact details. I suggest you contact them and ask them. I'm sure you're serious enough about the questions to follow-up with them.

    • Bill 1.3
      15 January 2022 at 10:30 am

      Jessica Rose provides weekly VAERS updates here https://i-do-not-consent.netlify.app/

      There are a lot of data.

      The following youtube presentation is a bit of an overview from April last year (it's long)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMY2tdFNkRU

    • Bill 1.4
      15 January 2022 at 12:21 pm

      A more up to date (and in some ways more thorough) presentation by Jessica Rose (Aug 27) can be found by typing VAERS UPDATE for CCCA (Canadian COVID Care Alliance) into youtube. Again – it's a long one.

      The report she co-authored (note: Elsevier are being sued because they withdrew it after publication and right before the FDA were deciding on injecting children) is(n’t) here…A Report on Myocarditis Adverse Events in the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) in Association with COVID-19 Injectable Biological Products

  2. Adrian 2
    15 January 2022 at 8:28 am

    There appears to be a lack of understanding of how our labour force worked pre-pandemic which may explain the problems now. The student visa scheme supplied a huge number ( up to 200,000 ) of casual workers doing the “ shit “ jobs, hotspo and horticultural work mainly. My take is that the offshore visitors replaced the young Kiwis who took off after school/ uni to do their OE and took up similar jobs offshore, and because of the 2 year limit meant starting a career over there made little sense. Now back here most are moving directly into careers and foregoing the “ holiday , year off “ jobs on returning and into their chosen career or previously trained-for occupations. Celebrating, a la Stuart Nash, getting rid of the ‘ kids in vans ‘ is very short sighted. We can and should not rely on Pasifika labour in the future ,we have almost cleaned out the islands of their own essential young very much to the detriment of their soon to be, hopefully recovering economies.

    • KJT 2.1
      15 January 2022 at 9:16 am

      The estimate was up to 300 000 in NZ before covid.

      Ignoring the many thousands more backpackers and tourists, working illegally for industries such as hospitality.

      • weka 2.1.1
        15 January 2022 at 2:22 pm

        yep. A system that was suppressing wages and work conditions and making it hard for locals to make a living.

  3. Blade 3
    15 January 2022 at 9:36 am

    The police consolidate their power over people they consider outliers in our woke society. People who are supposedly a threat to the powers that be. Dare I say… people who may be able to defend themselves and fight back?

    But in this and other cases??

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/127444880/family-want-apology-after-police-allegedly-mock-amputee-gun-owner

    I have witnessed this type of behaviour. In fact I have been subjected to it by police in quite a random way.

    The problem with the police starts with Cuddles Coster who won his commissionership over a far more abled candidate who was a real cop. One with a backbone. And that was the problem…the government whom I assume advises the GG in the selection process, wanted a politician, not a copper. Boy, did they get one.

    A forlorn hope of mine would be an incoming National government telling Cuddles he's not wanted. If that cost the taxpayer big money to shift this guy sideways, I say money well spent.

    The other problem I see is the standard of police officers. Some have pot bellies. Many are tattooed to the max and to me that looks unprofessional. Many new recruits are from middleclass families. That means they probably have never had a hiding in their life, or been subjected to constant irrational abuse from people who have more in common with primates than human beings. Many young officers are also deficient physically. That needs to change.

    • Blazer 3.1
      15 January 2022 at 9:52 am

      You should moonlight as a…comedian!laugh

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1
        15 January 2022 at 9:59 am

        Not the sharpest, Blade.

        In the drawer.

        • Blade 3.1.1.1
          15 January 2022 at 12:07 pm

          Neither is Cuddles Costa. But hey…let’s not let a old, now dead man, and the innocent public get in the way of decent liberal policing, eh Robert?

          Now that attitude is as blunt as your pruning knife.

      • Blade 3.1.2
        15 January 2022 at 12:01 pm

        Please expand on you insightful comment. If you are having a problem expressing yourself ….plagiarise something.wink

        • Blazer 3.1.2.1
          15 January 2022 at 1:20 pm

          Your critique of police recruits….pot bellies,never had a hiding….etc…seriously!

      • Jester 3.1.3
        15 January 2022 at 12:21 pm

        Perhaps you could try addressing the comment and actually contributing to the website. The article if true is pretty concerning.

        • Blazer 3.1.3.1
          15 January 2022 at 1:18 pm

          I am responding to this….

          'the standard of police officers. Some have pot bellies. Many are tattooed to the max and to me that looks unprofessional. Many new recruits are from middleclass families. That means they probably have never had a hiding in their life, or been subjected to constant irrational abuse from people who have more in common with primates than human beings. Many young officers are also deficient physically. That needs to change.'

          Thx all the same.

          • Blade 3.1.3.1.1
            15 January 2022 at 2:19 pm

            Let me break it down for you: Let's use simple steps.

            ''The standard of police officers. Some have pot bellies. Many are tattooed to the max and to me that looks unprofessional.''

            Growing up, I can't recall a police officer with a pot belly. There may have been some, but I never saw them.' So what's changed? KFC or accepted physical standards for a serving officer to maintain?

            That leads to my concern with middleclass new recruits. First our education system takes away their ability to think on their feet( in my opinion). Their general home life is safe and secure. They have never had to tough it out over three days without food in their stomach. They have never been embarrassed in front of others because they have nothing. If they do wrong they are sent to their room or grounded. A feral may have done nothing wrong, but still ends up getting beaten by someone because that someone is having a bad hair day. That lifestyle builds resilience, viciousness and cunning. Into that cauldron must step a new police recruit. That's why I have seen them flounder, be out thought and scared. I don't blame them. Police college can only prepare you so far. In times past being from the middleclass wasn't a problem because life was still reality based and everyone was reasonably fit. The underclass problem was still developing.

            The solution: Mandatory training for recruits in areas like South Auckland for two years probation. Mandatory social work in similar areas as part of police training.

            I accompanied a social worker relative once on a house call. What I saw, heard and smelt is still burnt into my mind.

            Here's a somewhat tame and in a way, funny clip. However, it points to a way of life a new recruit will have to understand and master…it's a doorway into the dark side of life.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqbcxM97X_8

            • Blazer 3.1.3.1.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 2:30 pm

              Presumably you have had a few hidings…in life…and look how you turned…out!

            • Hetzer 3.1.3.1.1.2
              15 January 2022 at 5:38 pm

              My daughter was confronted by a similar piece of excrement in Point Erin Park, Ponsonby. I think she was more worried for her dog than herself.

              The excrement picked on the wrong girl, shes First Dan Karate Shotokan. As far as im aware hes still taking his kai via a straw. lol

              • Blade …
                15 January 2022 at 6:08 pm

                Good for her, Hetzer. Notice how in the clip no one came to the girls aid?

                Thirty years ago, if a man did that, he would have been dealt to by other men? That would still happen today in the right part of town.

                • Hetzer …
                  15 January 2022 at 7:25 pm

                  yeppers

                • Gezza …
                  15 January 2022 at 7:29 pm

                  Obviously he suffers from Short Man Syndrome. I went to YouTube & read some of the comments. Mostly, from the spelling & ghetto-style-affecteda-language used, Māori commenters I’d say.

                  They all thought he was a complete joke. Several commented on the hilariously peculiar strutting & the shorts-pulling. Others noticed they girls weren’t remotely scared & howvlucky he was one of them didn’t smack him.

                  A couple of commenters posted akong the lines “wait till they tell their brothers get there”.

                  Sounds like it was in Hamilton, from the comments.

                  That said, I did find it unsettling no males intervened & told him to piss off.

                • joe90 …
                  15 January 2022 at 7:40 pm

                  No one came to their aid because those young ladies looked like they were capable of kicking his sorry arse all on their own.

                  • Blade …
                    15 January 2022 at 10:24 pm

                    The point is even though those ladies could handle themselves, the fact is a woman was being kicked and nobody did a thing. Even the narrator mentions this dick stepping out a woman, but he does nothing. To be fair, society is so dangerous now that stepping in to help could cost you your life as happened a few years back when a man was knifed to death for trying to stop a feral beating a woman.

    • Puckish Rogue 3.2
      15 January 2022 at 10:41 am

      I'd like to know how many gang pads/homes have been raided versus other less scary homes

      If they're 'worried about gangs and weapons surely they'd take on the groups more likely to fight back

      Or did I just answer my own question…

      Do you feel safer?

      • bwaghorn 3.2.1
        15 January 2022 at 12:05 pm

        How many gang members make up the prison population??

        Hoe did said prisoners make it to jail?

        Did they knock on the door asking to be locked up, ? Or did the cops perchance go catch them bad boys???

        • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1
          15 January 2022 at 12:12 pm

          Deadly reposte!

          • Puckish Rogue 3.2.1.1.1
            16 January 2022 at 7:13 am

            Robert you need to get out of Riverton more.

            If the police did this to a gang then you know there'd be media stories claiming the police are racist by picking on gangs, that lawyers would be crawling out of the woodwork and that the gangs (the leaders are not stupid) would be hitting up whatever politician they own decrying these actions

            Thats why they target the individuals in cases like this

            • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1.1.1
              16 January 2022 at 7:36 am

              You're right, Pucky. I was being needlessly flippant.

              You do seem though, to have something of a fixation on gangs.

              You're opinions about police behaviour with regard gangs are flavoured by your anger?

              • Puckish Rogue …
                16 January 2022 at 7:45 am

                'Police did not have a search warrant, but gave Keenan a letter citing the 1983 Arms Act, suggesting he was either a member of, or had close affiliations with, a gang or organised crime group.'

                If its good enough for the police to use this to target individuals then why isn't it good enough for the police to target gang pads/HQs?

                'They told Keenan they had reason to believe he had gang affiliations and was not fit to hold a firearms licence.'

                Again the same reasoning, if its good enough for the individual then why not the gangs.

                Remember this:

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mongrel-mob-leader-says-members-wont-hand-in-their-guns/DY3UKD2J3XFQJAYXOJXMWAE27M/

                'Will gangs get rid of their weapons? No. Because of who we are, we can't guarantee our own safety," he told Stuff.'

                You're not allowed firearms for protection so why isn't every gang pad getting raided?

                Are you ok with different rules for different people?

                • Robert Guyton …
                  16 January 2022 at 8:27 am

                  I'm okay with taking the actions that are most effective, doable and safe.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    16 January 2022 at 8:51 am

                    Good, we're in agreement then.

                    So why aren't the police going after gangs more, like they did with this guy (who as it turned out did nothing wrong)

        • Puckish Rogue 3.2.1.2
          15 January 2022 at 5:10 pm

          I'll repeat it again:

          'I'd like to know how many gang pads/homes have been raided versus other less scary homes'

          How many or are the police just going after safer, less politically advantaged, weaker individuals

          • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.2.1
            15 January 2022 at 5:15 pm

            We recognise your desire to know, Pucky!

            When you find out, please share.

            • McFlock 3.2.1.2.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 5:30 pm

              I'm sure it's on the search warrant form – a tickbox for "scary place".

            • Puckish Rogue 3.2.1.2.1.2
              15 January 2022 at 5:42 pm

              I'm surprised that on a left wing political blog theres not more people up in arms about the police over stepping their boundaries

              Anything to maintain the illusion of safety I suppose

              • McFlock …
                15 January 2022 at 7:50 pm

                Meh.
                Reading the article, the "mocking" seems to have been a hot mic moment when they didn't know there was a mic – he was outside, no?

                As for taking guns first and returning them after everything's sorted out and there wasn't really a problem, I'm cool with that. Better than the other way around.

                The issue of antiques does create a problem, though, especially in regards to museums etc. Different threat level, but still enough to rob someone with – just ask Dick Turpin.

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  15 January 2022 at 11:04 pm

                  'They told Keenan they had reason to believe he had gang affiliations and was not fit to hold a firearms licence.'

                  Gee can you think of other places where people might have gang affiliations because I sure can't

                  'Police did not have a search warrant, but gave Keenan a letter citing the 1983 Arms Act, suggesting he was either a member of, or had close affiliations with, a gang or organised crime group.'

                  Good thing they went after this guy rather than, oh I don't know, any of the known gang pads

                  • McFlock …
                    15 January 2022 at 11:37 pm

                    But they knew this guy had guns.

                    Pretty sure that if the local cops had reliable info that guns were actually being stored at a particular gang pad at a particular time, they'd pop over for a visit there, too.

                    What you're asking for is nothing to do with gun control, you just want the cops to routinely turn over the houses of anyone with a possible connection to gangs without needing any evidence to do so.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      16 January 2022 at 7:09 am

                      ‘But they knew this guy had guns.’

                      I have guns, should I be raided?

                      ‘What you're asking for is nothing to do with gun control, you just want the cops to routinely turn over the houses of anyone with a possible connection to gangs without needing any evidence to do so.'

                      The police just did exactly that, I want them to do the exact same thing they did to this guy, under the exact same arms act cited.

                      I'll repeat that bit again for you since you obviously missed it:

                      'Police did not have a search warrant, but gave Keenan a letter citing the 1983 Arms Act, suggesting he was either a member of, or had close affiliations with, a gang or organised crime group.'

                      Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the nearest gang pad might just have members of a gang?

                      I believe that the reason the police target the individual and not the gang is because the individual is a softer target, does not have the same PR representation as the gangs, does not not have the same perceived support of the gangs and certainly doesn't have the same legal resources as the gang

                    • McFlock …
                      16 January 2022 at 2:40 pm

                      ‘But they knew this guy had guns.’

                      I have guns, should I be raided?

                      Have the cops received information that you also have close gang connections while holding a firearms license?

                      Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the nearest gang pad might just have members of a gang?

                      Very likely. But I suspect your local "gang pad" does not have anyone with a current firearms license living there.

                  • bwaghorn …
                    16 January 2022 at 7:19 am

                    Theres a mob property in main street raetihi, last year I drove past , 2 detective type cars parked at the front door , officers inside , 2 uniform cops on the other side of the road covering the building with semi rifles at the ready, I'm picking they'd popped round for more than a cup of tea.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      16 January 2022 at 7:27 am

                      Should be hitting them once a month at least, once a week would be better.

                      Harry and harass the gangs, using legal means only, constantly. It won't stamp them out but it will curtail their activities.

                    • bwaghorn []
                      16 January 2022 at 8:35 am

                      I'd guess legal means ,means needing probably cause,you know verifiable, provable in court reasons for search?

                      Believe me I dont like gangs, but I'd like an unleashed law enforcement less.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      16 January 2022 at 8:49 am

                      100% agreed. Legal means only. No breaking the laws, the police are not above the laws themselves.

                      'Police did not have a search warrant, but gave Keenan a letter citing the 1983 Arms Act, suggesting he was either a member of, or had close affiliations with, a gang or organised crime group.'

                      If its good enough for one its good enough for all, don't you agree?

                    • McFlock …
                      16 January 2022 at 2:43 pm

                      If its good enough for one its good enough for all holders of a firearms license, don't you agree?

                      fixed it for you.

      • Peter 3.2.2
        15 January 2022 at 12:22 pm

        Safer? The safest thing to say is there's a lot of crap spouted about the police and gangs. Apparently the cops leave them alone, don't dare touch them.

        Can't think why then there are regular stories in the media about big drug busts, and photos of drugs, and money and guns and reference to gang people arrested.

        • Puckish Rogue 3.2.2.1
          16 January 2022 at 7:16 am

          Theres a difference between busts and some cops turning up at someones door to confiscate some weapons which may or, especially in this case, may not be illegal

    • Gezza 3.3
      15 January 2022 at 2:55 pm

      The police consolidate their power over people they consider outliers in our woke society. People who are supposedly a threat to the powers that be. Dare I say… people who may be able to defend themselves and fight back?

      Against the police? People with guns who decide to fight back against the police have killed & wounded quite a few of our police officers. Several of these shooters have had criminal histories, or psychiatric/psychological issues. Not surprising the police are wary of such people ,or gun owners that are reported by the public as posting hateful comments and/or seemingly being mentally unstable.

      But in this and other cases??

      It certainly sounds like in this case it was a complete cock up & the police officers involved went about confiscating the guns in a very unprofessional manner, with the family claiming to have multiple evidences on CCTV video & audio of their total lack of professionalism. The fact they later wrote to him (but he’d died by the time the letter was received) to say he could collect his guns suggests they should not have confiscated them in the first place.

      But we don’t know the full facts. E.g. He may have improved his home gun security in the intervening time. We’re only getting his family’s & lawyer’s side of the story. I think a complaint to the IPCA is definitely worthwhile.

      I have witnessed this type of behaviour. In fact I have been subjected to it by police in quite a random way.

      So you say. Did they confiscate your gun(s) or are you drawing an analogy with some other different type of interaction with police that you see as their being unreasonable, bullying, or in some other way unfair or unprofessional?

      The problem with the police starts with Cuddles Coster who won his commissionership over a far more abled candidate who was a real cop. One with a backbone. And that was the problem…the government whom I assume advises the GG in the selection process, wanted a politician, not a copper. Boy, did they get one.

      I won’t argue with that final conclusion of yours that they got a “politician” because the Police Commissioner’s job has nearly always required the appointee to be politically astute while maintaining the fiction that they always act completely independently of the government and are not subject to political direction or intervention.

      But in my view the other primary contending candidate Mike Clement would not have been significantly different. By the time they get to Deputy Commissioner level they know the Commissioner’s job is a politically sensitive role requiring careful & cautious handling. One doesn’t go against the government’s wishes.

      And Mike Clement was being investigated by the IPCA, accused of interfering in the appointment of a superintendent at the time the govt were looking to fill the role. I can’t recall the outcome but he subsequently retired with praises from the Police Minister.

      A forlorn hope of mine would be an incoming National government telling Cuddles he’s not wanted. If that cost the taxpayer big money to shift this guy sideways, I say money well spent.

      The next one might be a woman? A couple of female senior policepersons were in the original running.

      The other problem I see is the standard of police officers. Some have pot bellies.

      I haven’t seen any pot-bellied police officers down here in North Welly, but if a few middle-aged or older ones are desk-bound it wouldn’t be surprising. I don’t know what the physical fitness requirements to be maintained are once they’ve qualified to join the force.

      Many are tattooed to the max and to me that looks unprofessional.

      You’re just going to have to live with that. I’m not a great fan of tats either. But they’re so ubiquitous among younger folk now that it’d be crazy to rule out young men or women who meet the requirements because they have tatoos. And many 20-something young Māori I encounter proudly display moko on arms & legs to signal their iwi affiliations. We need more Māori Pirihama. Be crazy to rule them out.

      Many new recruits are from middleclass families. That means they probably have never had a hiding in their life, or been subjected to constant irrational abuse from people who have more in common with primates than human beings. Many young officers are also deficient physically. That needs to change.

      I think they get pretty thorough training both at the Police College & on the streets. You don’t need a lifetime of abuse & violence to learn what it’s like & how to deal with it. It’s not shied away from as part of their training. And some recruits DO come from that kind of background, as I understand it. No doubt they share their experiences during training.

      As far as I know they still have to meet stringent physical fitness standards to get into the police.

      Our police are not perfect. No country’s are. But I’d rather support them, & criticise them only when they act badly, than denigrate them all as a force. It’s not a job I’d take on.

      • Blade 3.3.1
        15 January 2022 at 4:08 pm

        Good post. I will let most of it stand as a different take ( some would say more reasoned) on what I wrote, believe and quoted.

        Some cherry picking.

        Regarding Costa. He wasn't the frontline favourite among officers at the time of his selection. He blows Mike Clement out of the water academic wise. But Clement has far more front line skills eg working in the undercover programme. Yes, a commissioner to a degree has to be a politician, but he also sets the tone for officers and staff who work under him. Having the support of your front line is a great way to start and build a culture. At the moment if you believe The Police Association and talkback( police officers calling in), morale is low. Serving officers don't believe police HQ has their backs. An example of that is Costa not arming police as a matter of routine. I wonder if Clement would have?

        ''I think they get pretty thorough training both at the Police College & on the streets. You don’t need a lifetime of abuse & violence to learn what it’s like & how to deal with it. It’s not shied away from as part of their training.''

        I disagree with that for the reasons given. Others can make their own mind up regarding my views.

        ''So you say. Did they confiscate your gun(s) or are you drawing an analogy with some other different type of interaction with police that you see as their being unreasonable, bullying, or in some other way unfair or unprofessional.''

        Nothing to do with guns, but everything to do with attitude. Three cops pulled up in a police car outside a dairy I had exited. As I walked away, one cop called out" Where are you going, boy.'' ''Home, officer'', I said, and continued walking.

        He jumped out of the car and said '' I'll tell you when you can go, boy -understand?'' ''Listen'', he continued, ''if you fuck me around I will give you the 'jerkies.'' He pointed to his taser. My peripheral vision picked up the other officers grinning. The officer questioning me gave them a wry smile, looked back at me and said '' well, bugger off.'' That was it. To this day, I don't have a clue what went down. He didn't even ask for my particulars. I think they just wanted a little fun on a boring Sunday morning at my expense.

        Another time in a Bunnings carpark, I was stopped by two cops who demanded to see what was in my bag. I was just opening my bag when a staff worker called out to the officers and pointed to another person. I received no apology. Something like: ''sorry mate, wrong person.'' would have been nice.

        I could recount other incidents. I'm not anti cop. They have a shit job…but, as the years roll on, I'm losing more respect for them. In fact, I wonder if the cops have lost a passion for their job, and just consider us all crooks? That said most cops I have dealt with have been decent good people, its just that growing feral element that I have encountered that worries me.

        • Robert Guyton 3.3.1.1
          15 January 2022 at 5:17 pm

          Great work stories, Blade!

        • Gezza 3.3.1.2
          15 January 2022 at 5:29 pm

          All fair points, & well made, Blade.

          Clement may have had the background & skills to handle front line police with more support from them because they believed he “had their back”.

          I don’t know whether he’d have had them all now routinely armed or whether he’d have arrived at the same situation they’re at now at with Tactical Response Teams with AOS level training (who have immediate access to firearms if needed) being trialled.

          These seem like a mere step away from the Tactical Response Teams, which I recall weren’t being used as originally intended (they were reportedly even seen doing routine traffic stops) but were dumped because of more heavily policed communities’ & political opposition. They were possibly dumped too early, they could perhaps have been simply better managed & more appropriately tasked.

          If crims keep shooting at unarmed coppers, they’ll be routinely armed eventually. There’ll be enough public support for it once we start having too many police fatalities & a big enuf % of the cops demand the right to be armed or they’ll leave the force. I hope it doesn’t come to that soon, but one day it might. Then some wrongful & accidental police shootings will probably happen.

          After doing a bit more googling to find out what happened to Clement’s IPCA complaint, it turns out he was the front runner for the Commissioner’s job & someone leaked that he had an IPCA investigation underway & torpedoed his chances. The actions he took that was being investigated for some might consider were creditable & a sign of his moral values.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deputy-commissioner-mike-clement-interfered-when-plum-job-given-to-senior-officer-censured-over-crude-sexual-jokes/GEPE7S5VOBBYA7DX3OYVR3KUYE/

          The personal experiences you recount would have irritated me too. These days I do find some younger cops are too abrupt to the point of rudeness if you ask them what’s going on. You might just get an annoyed scowl & “Move on please”. The days of the friendly (always tall) cop on the beat in the main street are long gone. Even as teenage “larrikins” we could always have a brief chat & a joke with the cops. They always seemed calm & skilled at defusing tense situations of young fullas full of booze eyeing each other up for a scrap.

          But then, people had more respect for the police. I’d like to see a return to Community-based police stations & cops on the beat in the streets, where they & the Community get to know & trust each other, but I doubt it will happen. It would cost more than governments will want to spend. I also think we need more police.

          • Puckish Rogue 3.3.1.2.1
            15 January 2022 at 5:44 pm

            ' It would cost more than governments will want to spend. I also think we need more police.'

            Agree with both

            • Gezza 3.3.1.2.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 5:59 pm

              Just a correction: The Tactical Response Teams are being trialled in place of the Armed Response Teams. (I used TRT above twice.)

          • Blade 3.3.1.2.2
            15 January 2022 at 6:17 pm

            ''But then, people had more respect for the police. I’d like to see a return to Community-based police stations & cops on the beat in the streets, where they & the Community get to know & trust each other.''

            That would be a great help. Unfortunately, it will never happen, as you have pointed out. It's all about the one size fits all corporate model. Nuances in delivery of service doesn't fit into that model.

        • Dennis Frank 3.3.1.3
          15 January 2022 at 5:58 pm

          Three cops pulled up in a police car outside a dairy I had exited. As I walked away, one cop called out" Where are you going, boy.'' ''Home, officer'', I said, and continued walking. He jumped out of the car and said '' I'll tell you when you can go, boy -understand?'' ''Listen'', he continued, ''if you fuck me around I will give you the 'jerkies.'' He pointed to his taser.

          Reminds me of a similar incident I experienced in '72 when I was doing the hippie thing. I was talking to my girlfriend who was in her car, through her driver window, standing alongside, when a car pulled up on the other side of me with two guys in the front seats.

          The one in the passenger seat asked me what I was doing. Surprised, I said "None of your business." Turned back to my girlfriend, continuing the conversation. Didn't even hear him leap out of the car. Next thing I knew he'd slammed me up against her car.

          Being non-violent, I didn't resist & it was a bit of a blur immediately except he (I think) asked me further questions, which I answered. I vaguely recall pointing out that I was talking to my girlfriend. Maybe he asked her to confirm but I have no memory of that. Anyway, he cooled down & jumped back in the car & they drove off. Both car & guys were mufti.

          We called them dees in those days. Detectives, that meant. In Auckland, common. Dunno whether all were drug squad or not. Of course the yanks called all cops pigs & that caught on here too. However they didn't all act like pigs. The ones that invaded Ak university & beat up some professors during the Agnew visit did stick up their hand for that honorific.

          • Blade 3.3.1.3.1
            15 January 2022 at 6:27 pm

            Crikey, compared to you I got off lightly, Dennis. Lucky they didn't have tasers in those days or you may have received ''the jerkies” to go with your body slam.

        • Blazer 3.3.1.4
          15 January 2022 at 9:20 pm

          '

          Three cops pulled up in a police car outside a dairy I had exited. As I walked away, one cop called out" Where are you going, boy.'' ''Home, officer'', I said, and continued walking.

          He jumped out of the car and said '' I'll tell you when you can go, boy -understand?'' ''Listen'', he continued, ''if you fuck me around I will give you the 'jerkies.'' He pointed to his taser. My peripheral vision picked up the other officers grinning. '

          How old were you when this happened..Blade.?

          • Blade 3.3.1.4.1
            15 January 2022 at 10:33 pm

            In my 40s would be my guess. The young officer was a Maori, so BOY wasn't a racial slur but more a normal way for Maori to talk … It was one smooth sentence '' where are you going boy?'' Maybe I shouldn't have used a comma in the above comment.

  4. Adrian 4
    15 January 2022 at 9:50 am

    KJT. I don’t think there was as much illegality as rumoured, it’s a lot harder to get away with it now and the kids were a lot more aware of their worth in a restrained labour market, so the difference between legal and cashies was marginal for the risk. One salient point was that most of the money paid was really spent locally on essentials and fun stuff like festivals and touristy stuff, and total hours worked were generally not close to full time as they were moving around to see the country and spend time with fellow travellers.

    I deliberately went foe 200k rather than 300k as a lot of them didn’t need to work such as those from the wealthier countries whose parents gave them a poultice of money to get out of the house and when those ones did turn up they were pretty lazy.

    In the SI if you are a local and aren’t working you must be incapacitated or similar and there are a still huge number of my over 70 cohort who are still working and not generally because of nessesity either.
    ,

    • KJT 4.1
      15 January 2022 at 10:55 am

      Certainly was a large proportion in Northland.
      Whether the tourists needed to work, or not, the local youngsters we can see now, who can finally put their hospitality, or agriculture training to use, shows how many of those jobs, were filled by temporary visa’s or under the table backpackers.

      As for the idea that anyone who wants to work can now get a job.

      There are many barriers to employment. Wages below the cost of living and lack of accommodation where the work is, are just two.

  5. Stephen D 5
    15 January 2022 at 10:20 am

    Interesting perspectives on China for 2022. A holding year, bau for China.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/127505177/what-will-happen-in-china-in-2022-here-are-12-predictions

    • Dennis Frank 5.1
      15 January 2022 at 10:54 am

      Fab to see mainstreamers displaying their ability to predict the future but they forgot to mention whether they used scrying, the pendulum, or reading tea leaves.

      Being mainstreamers there's no way they would have been able to use astrology or the I Ching, of course! I guess it's a genuine sign that the long hegemony of science is finally abating. About time! enlightened

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.1
        15 January 2022 at 11:15 am

        Entrails.

        • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1
          15 January 2022 at 11:41 am

          Which the Romans learnt from the Etruscans, and was eagerly embraced by scientists. Even today today they dissect plenty of creatures – although the extent to which they learn about the future seems surprising moot…

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.1.1
            15 January 2022 at 12:14 pm

            They're looking at said viscera with the wrong eyes – it's the shine on the surface of liver etc. that told and foretold 🙂 (a la crystal ball/magic mirror)

            • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 12:22 pm

              I favour the mystique button in the psyche (that gets pushed) theory which I agree is likely to be triggered by a shiny effect…

              However I gather that one finding of (the pseudoscience of) psychology is that people tend to see what they're looking for.

              The mainstreamers doing the predicting were probably seeking to reassure both themselves & readers that the future will be same old same old. Which it probably won't be.

              • Robert Guyton …
                15 January 2022 at 12:26 pm

                We certainly interpret what we "see", using our cultural lens, but the inner-eye is clearer and surely looking straight into the heart of the matter. How to unfilter, and damp-down all that interpreting…

                • Dennis Frank …
                  15 January 2022 at 12:44 pm

                  And we now have scientific incorporation of chaos, which means the future is as likely to be produced by discontinuity as continuity.

                  Xi dismounts the dais after watching the goose-stepping, trips, and his skull doesn't bounce well. Chief Assistant Honcho assumes command as Xi lies in coma, decides to invade Taiwan while Sleepy Joe is having a nap, initiates WWIII.

                  Except not! When the order goes out to fire the missiles from the American, Russian & Chinese leaders, nothing happens after their red buttons get pushed. The old 1950s wiring has become so corroded that the electrons encounter gaps they can't jump across.

                  Future annihilation turns into present insulation. Everybody lives happily ever after…

    • RedLogix 6.1
      15 January 2022 at 10:49 am

      The Omicron variant is perhaps the most contagious respiratory virus ever; nothing any govt could have done would have prevented or changed it in the slightest once it arrives. Public 'health policy' as we know it has become irrelevant.

      There is significant short term disruption here in Australia, but for the most part life is going on. People are scaling back their activities for the duration, and learning to 'live with it'.

      The surge will peak here in Australia within the month and the reasonable expectation is that it will settle back into being another endemic virus similar to seasonal influenza or the common cold. It should remain the dominant variant indefinitely, unless we're stupid enough to put it under evolutionary pressure with a 'vaccine' for it.

      • Robert Guyton 6.1.1
        15 January 2022 at 11:18 am

        "nothing any govt could have done would have prevented or changed it in the slightest once it arrives."

        Unless it was preceded by another version, say, an delta version, that, un-checked by Government programmes, had devastated the community, choked the hospital system and wrecked the economy, in which case, the Omicron version would race through an already incapacitated society to much greater ill effect.

        Yes?

        • Bill 6.1.1.1
          15 January 2022 at 1:34 pm

          You mean that as being analogous to a government response wrecking an economy and devastating communities?

          Since there appears to be zero immunity conferred by Delta, the effect of Omicron on health care systems will be what it's going to be. (Though, not firing a good number of nurses, doctors and other health care workers might have crossed someones mind in light of the fact “pandemic”)

          Of course, a government response that had followed their own pandemic pre-planning documents and allowed for the use of efficacious anti-virals in the early stage of infection: that had promoted simple health messages like Vit D and eating better food and possibly exercising more…

          Although, I forget – that messaging would not have had any effect.

          Far better to message around accepting the injection of an experimental medicine (that doesn't do as advertised) and back it up with coercive pressures while offering precisely zero actual pre-hospital treatments.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1.2
        15 January 2022 at 1:06 pm

        "It should remain the dominant variant indefinitely, unless we're stupid enough to put it under evolutionary pressure with a 'vaccine' for it."

        Except of course that naturally acquired immunity will similarly apply selective pressure to the virus…but with greater risk of a bad outcome compared to vaccine-acquired immunity.

      • miravox 6.1.3
        15 January 2022 at 1:07 pm

        unless we're stupid enough to put it under evolutionary pressure with a 'vaccine' for it.

        Covid-19 did not mutate via any vaccine. It mutated thanks to its spread though numerous populations. The more it replicates, the greater the chance of something dangerous to humans arising, as per the virus that causes influenza.

        Do you know how many, if any, mutations of concern have arisen in highly vaccinated countries? Do you really believe all vaccines mutate viruses, or only this virus or a particular vaccine?

        How would you explain the elimination/reduction rather than mutations of diseases like smallpox, polio, measles leading to greater outbreaks once vaccines were introduced?

        I'm not seeing any pathway for a vaccine putting covid under any "evolutionary pressure". The covid virus does that quite naturally, and all by itself.

        • Bill 6.1.3.1
          15 January 2022 at 1:23 pm

          It mutated thanks to its spread though numerous populations

          Yup. That was mouse populations apparently. (And then it jumped back to human populations) 🙂

          I'm not seeing any pathway for a vaccine putting covid under any "evolutionary pressure".

          The risk of pushing the evolution of a virus by deploying a leaky 'vaccine' on a universal basis is very real and has been documented and studied in Marek's virus.

          • Dennis Frank 6.1.3.1.1
            15 January 2022 at 1:34 pm

            The science of complexity validates your view. Indeterminate trajectories are inherent. Both systems and subsystems get triggered into shifts of state by tiny environmental triggers.

            Nature is the environment (Gaia is the whole system), humanity & covid are subsystems interacting. In this relational view, simplicity lies in the binary ebb & flow of interaction between both subsystems and complexity lies in the multitude of systemic alterations within both.

          • miravox 6.1.3.1.2
            15 January 2022 at 1:40 pm

            In 2015, my collaborators and I published a scientific paper about a chicken virus you have likely never heard of. At the time, it got some media attention and has been cited by other scientists in the years since…

            … Sacrificing chickens was not the solution the poultry industry adopted for Marek’s disease virus. Instead, more potent vaccines were developed. Those newer vaccines provided excellent disease control, and no lethal breakthrough variants of Marek’s have emerged in over 20 years…

            … In the history of human and animal vaccines, there have not been many cases of vaccine-driven evolution. But in every one of them, individuals and populations have always been better off when vaccinated…

            … At every point in the 50-year history of vaccination against Marek’s disease, an individual chicken exposed to the virus was healthier if it was vaccinated. Variants may have reduced the benefit of vaccination, but they never eliminated the benefit. Evolution is no reason to avoid vaccination.

            This. From an author of the Marek's study you're concerned about.

            https://theconversation.com/vaccines-could-affect-how-the-coronavirus-evolves-but-thats-no-reason-to-skip-your-shot-165960

            • RedLogix 6.1.3.1.2.1
              15 January 2022 at 3:09 pm

              Marek is a totally different virus in a completely different species.

              • miravox …
                15 January 2022 at 3:28 pm

                Marek is a totally different virus in a completely different species

                Yes, I'm aware of that. but that's the example Bill gave me.

                • RedLogix …
                  15 January 2022 at 3:34 pm

                  And the vaccines involved were a completely different type. The key issue with COVID is the vaccines we have do not prevent infection to any useful degree, yet they impose a selection pressure.

                  • miravox …
                    15 January 2022 at 3:46 pm

                    Do you have any other examples of the pathway for a vaccine putting covid under any evolutionary pressure? It seems some modelling suggests it might happen, but I can't find anything other that these suppositions.

                    Otoh – a vaccine more targeted to the omicron would reduce that likelihood by being less 'leaky'? That's what the WHO is looking for.

                    https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/who-says-more-research-needed-vaccine-efficacy-against-omicron-2022-01-11/

                    It is possible that we'll end up with an influenza-type situation with vaccines modified for variants each year, isn't it?

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      15 January 2022 at 3:54 pm

                      It is possible that we'll end up with an influenza-type situation with vaccines modified for variants each year, isn't it?

                      That's how I see the situation & I'd even replace possible with likely.

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 January 2022 at 4:06 pm

                      Do you have any other examples of the pathway for a vaccine putting covid under any evolutionary pressure?

                      Obviously not. We've never done a mass roll out of a leaky vaccine in the middle of a pandemic of a highly infectious respiratory virus.

                      Your linked article is a de-facto admission that the vaccines have been a total failure in preventing Omicron. Also note how hilarious is this?

                      And why would we be vaccinating against Omicron? All the evidence to date tells us it's acute illness is considerably less severe. It's too soon to know about it's long term chronic impact, but all other things being equal, it's probably going to be of less concern than seasonal influenza.

                      At which point the mandates have no justification whatsoever.

                    • miravox …
                      15 January 2022 at 4:29 pm

                      Obviously not. We've never done a mass roll out of a leaky vaccine in the middle of a pandemic of a highly infectious respiratory virus.

                      I meant some other human disease, – like flu.I should have been clearer.

                      Your linked article is a de-facto admission that the vaccines have been a total failure in preventing Omicron. Also note how hilarious is this?

                      I think by now everyone knows the purpose of the current vaccines in Omicron is to cut (not wipe-out) transmission. And to reduce hospitalisations and serious illness, so they definitely hvae value, but it would be of huge benefit to have improved prevention – especially if another mutation pops up. Also, people will get tired of going for boosters every few months. Will be good to get something with more efficacy.

                      And why would we be vaccinating against Omicron?

                      As above – reduce transmission, reduce hospitalisation, reduce serious illness

                      At which point the mandates have no justification whatsoever

                      As above – plus add in save the health system and healthcare workers – no-one should have to work in the environment they're expected to. All the politicians seem to treat them as robots that can keep going and going with little respite.

                      Agree that with a vaccine better at preventing disease we'll have little need for mandates beyond what we have for seasonal flu.

                      Re: Reuters – I'll keep that in mind. I linked in this case, because I'd seen the head of WHO making the statement about new vaccines on Al Jazeera, and this article pretty much covers that ground.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    15 January 2022 at 6:14 pm

                    Get your booster to stay safe this summer https://covid19.govt.nz
                    People aged 18 and over can now get a vaccine booster 4 months after their second dose. Visit a walk-in vaccination centre or book by calling 0800 28 29 26. You can book online from 17 January.

                    The mental gymnastics required to undermine NZ's vaccination programme during the COVID-19 pandemic are extraordinary.

                    And why would we be vaccinating against Omicron?

                    How Mild Is Omicron Really? [14 January 2022]
                    “I think it’s pretty clear Omicron causes less severe disease than the Delta variant, but that’s not saying much,” University of Western Australia epidemiologist and biostatistician Zoë Hyde writes in an email to The Scientist. “We know that Delta was more than twice as severe as the original strain, and if Imperial College is right to say that Omicron is about 40-45% less likely to put people in hospital [than Delta was], we’re back to 2020 but with a more contagious strain.”

                    Omicron: Is 'natural immunity' better than a vaccine? [14 January 2022]
                    And how does Omicron factor into immunity?
                    The Omicron wave is so new there is no conclusive data available yet on the quality of immunity provided via infection, but it's likely to be similar to other variants, said Schulze zur Wiesch. That means that if you've been infected with Omicron over the past few weeks, you're probably safe from reinfection for the next few months.

                    But because Omicron has a higher transmissibility rate than previous strains, higher levels of antibodies are needed to prevent infection. Immunity gained via only two vaccines or infection to earlier COVID variants (like Delta or Alpha) won't necessarily prevent Omicron infection, he said, adding that regardless of whether you've been previously infected or double-vaccinated, a booster is your best defense against (re)infection.

                    The effectiveness of protection against Omicron provided by "natural immunity" from other COVID variants may be as low as 19%, according to a study conducted by the Imperial College London COVID-19 response team in late December 2021.

                    With that said, early findings generally indicate that as long as you have some form of immunity — either through two doses of a vaccine or past infection plus a singe dose — your course of an Omicron infection is likely to be mild.
                    …
                    Despite the unknowns, one thing is clear to Schulze zur Wiesch: Unless you were infected by Omicron in the last week or two, a vaccine or booster is your best chance at avoiding a COVID infection and giving it to others.

                    Whether anyone will be held to account for the moral and health security failures unfolding in various countries, only time will tell – thank goodness Australia’s (and NZ’s) level of vaccination against COVID-19 is relatively high.

                    Daily COVID-19 death toll in Australia, 1 – 15 January 2022:
                    14, 6, 7, 5, 18, 12, 18, 25, 23, 22, 27, 49, 57, 56, 49.

            • Bill 6.1.3.1.2.2
              15 January 2022 at 6:07 pm

              The point that you seem to have missed is that newer strains (specifically 'hot' strains) could survive in the leaky vaccine environment and those 'hot' variants killed any unvaccinated 'sentinel' chickens that were housed next to vaccinated ones.

              In normal situations, the 'hot' variants would not have come to dominate, as they would have been too 'hot' for the environment they were trying to replicate in and died out.

              If you want to (very darkly) project that scenario into a possible pathway for the leaky vaccines we’re using for Covid, then ‘hot’ strains develop, and without an endless round of boosters to keep effectiveness topped up, people die – all people either not vaccinated or whose vaccination lapses for some reason or another.

              edit – the way to avoid any such possibility is to target the use of leaky vaccines, as is done with flu. Better still. Use whatever effective ant–virals we have to hand (cocktails of known drugs if necessary), as per the governments Pandemic Preparedness documents.

      • Blazer 6.1.4
        15 January 2022 at 1:23 pm

        Is it true Queensland have decided on the 'let it rip' policy?

      • Gabby 6.1.5
        15 January 2022 at 1:31 pm

        Sounds like the remedy is worse than the cure eh, in praxis.

      • locus 6.1.6
        15 January 2022 at 2:11 pm

        The emotive outburst from Professor Qimron in his letter to the Israeli government reflects his invested opinions in having signed the Great Barrington Declaration. Read here for how this has been challenged Facts about the Barrington Declaration, and here: 5 Failings of the Barrington Declaration

        The Barrington group of scientists are herd immunity advocates and the Declaration was funded by a Libertarian thinktank that is also associated with climate change denial

        The John Snow Memorandum highlights the errors of the "mass infection" argument.

        "It should remain the dominant variant indefinitely, unless we're stupid enough to put it under evolutionary pressure with a 'vaccine' for it."

        The evolving argument of some that somehow the Covid vaccine is putting evolutionary pressure on the disease is another Barrington style argument. An interesting study relating to this looks specifically at 'leaky vaccinations'

        This is what the authors of the study have to say:

        "Here, we use transmission experiments involving Marek disease virus (MDV) in chickens to show that vaccination with a leaky vaccine substantially reduces viral load in both vaccinated individuals and unvaccinated contact individuals they infect. Consequently, contact birds are less likely to develop disease symptoms or die, show less severe symptoms, and shed less infectious virus themselves, when infected by vaccinated birds. These results highlight that even partial vaccination with a leaky vaccine can have unforeseen positive consequences in controlling the spread and symptoms of disease."

        • weka 6.1.6.1
          15 January 2022 at 2:19 pm

          nice work, thanks.

        • RedLogix 6.1.6.2
          15 January 2022 at 3:05 pm

          I what way do you imagine you have any reason to think you are more qualified to pass judgement than an actual Professor of Immunology?

          That study you quoted is utter bunk.

          • locus 6.1.6.2.1
            15 January 2022 at 3:39 pm

            That study you quoted is utter bunk.

            And you have some evidence to challenge the study's authors and reviewers?
            Who work in:

            • Division of Genetics and Genomics, The Roslin Institute, Easter Bush, Midlothian, United Kingdom
            • USDA, Agricultural Research Service, US National Poultry Research Center, Avian Disease and Oncology Laboratory, East Lansing, Michigan, United States of America
            • Usher Institute of Population Health Sciences & Informatics, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh, United Kingdom
            • Stanford University, USA
            • Institute of Mathematical and Computer Sciences, University of São Paulo, São Carlos, Brazil
            • RedLogix 6.1.6.2.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 3:46 pm

              There you go. You're happy to use reference to authority when it agrees with your opinion, but reject it when it does not.

              Reality however doesn't care too much for our opinions.

          • locus 6.1.6.2.2
            15 January 2022 at 4:06 pm

            I what way do you imagine you have any reason to think you are more qualified to pass judgement than an actual Professor of Immunology?

            No, I am merely qualified to trust the authors of a report that was published in The Lancet in October two years ago, which is now quite clearly supported by a deluge of data, and which pointed out that

            "Controlling community spread of COVID-19 is the best way to protect our societies and economies until safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics arrive."

            It may be of interest to others reading this thread that the John Snow Memorandum is a grass roots initiative, that unlike the Barrington declaration, has not received any outside or politically motivated funding. It is a collaborative, inclusive initiative supported by 6,900 scientists, researchers & healthcare professionals who believe that robust public health measures, like those implemented by Japan, New Zealand and Vietnam can control transmission of Covid and allow life to return to near normal.

            I certainly do not support the rantings of a defensive Professor who has consistently supported the idea of herd immunity, the opening up schools, workplaces and borders and who argues the nonsense that:

            There is currently no medical emergency, but you have been cultivating such a condition for two years now because of lust for power, budgets and control

            • RedLogix 6.1.6.2.2.1
              15 January 2022 at 4:22 pm

              Controlling community spread of COVID-19 is the best way to protect our societies and economies until safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics arrive."

              That made sense two years ago and back then I would have agreed totally. Time has passed and it's clear now that all low cost and effective therapeutics were to be rigorously sidelined, and the vaccines turned out neither particularly safe nor especially effective.

              Face it – Omicron has rendered the entire global vaccination program to date pretty much a waste of money, and their mandates have caused an immense amount of social polarisation and discord. And that may not even be the worst of it.

              The vaccines have not saved us – and yet the moral and political power allocated to them ensures their enthusiasts will double down forever.

              • locus …
                15 January 2022 at 5:28 pm

                A study completed in S.Africa (which supercedes the very early study that suggested the Covid vaccine may not be effective against Omicron), was published on 29 Dec 2021. This study compared 133,437 Omicron Covid positive PCR test results of fully vaccinated and non vaccinated patients admitted to hospital with respiratory problems.

                The study results indicated that two shots of the Pfizer vaccination is 70% effective against Omicron, i.e. still effective but not as effective as the 90% protection provided against the Delta variant.

                There are no population based studies as yet confirming Pfizer's lab results showing a booster shot of the vaccine increases antibody protection 25-fold compared with the initial two-dose series

                However, HERE is an excellent Twitter thread just published by a British epidemiologist summarising the UK Health Security Agency's latest review of the infection severity risk of Omicron

                • Bill …
                  15 January 2022 at 7:37 pm

                  That letter is around general hospitalisation for Omicron and includes 'incidentally +ve' hospital patients. That's fair enough, but not the same as looking at fully vaccinated and non vaccinated patients admitted to hospital with respiratory problems.

        • Bill 6.1.6.3
          15 January 2022 at 6:30 pm

          That paper you linked states – Unless otherwise stated, ‘transmission’, ‘virus’, and ‘viral load’ refer to the pathogenic MDV strain and not the vaccine virus strain.

          And since it's 'vaccine virus strains' that are the issue at hand….

          In the original study from 2015, – Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts.

          &

          To confirm that virus shed into the environment was a robust proxy for overall bird-to-bird transmission potential, we co-housed birds infected with our three most virulent strains with immunologically-naïve sentinel birds (Experiment 2). When unvaccinated birds were infected with the two most lethal strains (Md5 and 675A), they were all dead within 10 days (Fig 2A), before substantial viral shedding had begun (S2 Fig). Consequently, no sentinel birds in those isolators became infected (Fig 2B) and none died (Fig 2C). In contrast, when HVT-vaccinated birds were infected with either of those hyperpathogenic strains, they survived for 30 days or more (Fig 2A), allowing substantial viral shedding (S2 Fig). All co-housed sentinels consequently became infected (Fig 2B) and went on to die as a result of MDV infection

          https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

          And a mainstream article on the same study for easy reading –

          https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

        • Bill 6.1.6.4
          15 January 2022 at 6:39 pm

          Locus. Do you even scan (never mind read) the links you post? I'm going to skip the fact you used a wikileaks source as being somehow worthwhile and just mention that "the conversation" link claims –

          The declaration begins with the false premise that governments intend to lock down society

          I guess folks were dreaming.

          It also was not funded by the Koch Brothers (a Libertarian thinktank that is also associated with climate change denial) – that being an endlessly repeated smear intended to have people dismiss what signatories to the Great Barrington Declaration were attempting to bring up for public debate and discussion.

          Fck. Saint Fauci is on record as demanding the public debate be quashed before it could get started (via hit jobs and smear pieces).

          • locus 6.1.6.4.1
            15 January 2022 at 7:26 pm

            Locus. Do you even scan (never mind read) the links you post? I'm going to skip the fact you used a wikileaks source as being somehow worthwhile and just mention that "the conversation" link claims –

            Why have you decided to make this a personal attack?

            One of my links was to Wikipedia, (why would you say "wikileaks"?), which I use as an open source of basic information. In this case I used it for the definition of the Barrington Declaration, and a summary of who has challenged it. What was noted in Wikipedia was that the

            Bylines Times journalist Nafeez Ahmed described the AIER as a "institution embedded in a Koch-funded network that denies climate science while investing in polluting fossil fuel industries".

            There are several credible media sources that have identified libertarian organisations partnered with or funding the AIER. This is an interesting review reported in The Guardian

            On the other hand, when I'm providing information about important recent studies I reference the scientific or medical journals that the studies were published in. I do this because they are peer reviewed.

            I'm heartily sick of people using antivax lie promoting websites as a 'source of truth'.

            • Bill 6.1.6.4.1.1
              15 January 2022 at 8:37 pm

              lol – yup. Wikipedia – which is garbage for pretty much anything beyond dates and names in the socio/political sphere.

              The paper you referenced on the virus front was not a study on vaccine strains of Mareks.

              Can't see how you see my responses as "personal attacks".

    • Ad 6.2
      15 January 2022 at 10:53 am

      +100

      Essential reading.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 6.3
      15 January 2022 at 11:33 am

      The economy doesn’t work if people can’t work. So the first economic priority during a pandemic must be to keep people healthy enough to keep working, producing, delivering and buying.

      Well I never, who'd have thunk it?

      Perhaps, just perhaps, our government's approach was right all along! I'm gobsmacked!

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.4
      15 January 2022 at 2:59 pm

      Yep, and yet "Stupid is as stupid does" – individual vaccine hesitancy is fair enough, but promoting vaccine hesitancy is giving aid and comfort to the virus, imho.

      To anyone eligible for a vaccine booster – please, please, get it as soon as possible.

      Get your booster to stay safe this summer
      People aged 18 and over can now get a vaccine booster 4 months after their second dose. Visit a walk-in vaccination centre or book by calling 0800 28 29 26. You can book online from 17 January.

      Opinion: Does the vaccine actually work? Details in the data
      [14 January 2022]
      We now have 'irrefutable' proof vaccinations reduce chances of catching COVID
      We now have proof that vaccinations reduce our chances of catching COVID. Take the data from Science Table (the COVID-19 advisory for Ontario) at https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/ that shows that people are 1.6 times more likely to catch COVID if they are unvaccinated. To be clear, I’m not worried about catching it myself, but I surely don’t want to pass it on to aging parents or immuno-compromised friends who could die from it.

      Since Omicron is so catchy, and many more people will likely catch it, let’s look at the data showing that vaccination reduces symptoms of the illness, and reduces the need for hospitalization and ICU beds. From the same website, unvaccinated people are 4.75 times more likely to be admitted to hospital, and 10.8 times more likely to end up in the ICU.

      We should be screaming these numbers from the rooftops, not shaming people for not understanding the rationale for vaccination. I don’t believe that anyone WANTS our health-care professionals off sick, unable to care for all other health emergencies. I don’t believe that anyone WANTS to be the reason that someone else can’t get life-saving treatment because they are taking up a bed in hospital or the ICU with COVID that they could be managing at home if they had gotten the vaccination. I don’t believe that anyone WANTS to bring the virus to their grandparents and see them end up in hospital fighting for their lives.

      Anti-vax and vaccine hesitant: what is the impact of those refusing to get jabbed? [14 January 2022]
      What impact is all this having?
      There’s no doubt that the unvaccinated are making the pandemic considerably worse. The ONS found that the Covid death rate in England among people who had a second jab was 96% lower than in those who were unvaccinated between January and October last year.

      At present, the risk of hospitalisation from the Omicron variant is 90% lower for those who have received a booster shot. Conversely, the UK Health Security Agency estimates that unvaccinated adults are around eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been jabbed.

      The latest figures show that unvaccinated patients accounted for 61% of the patients admitted to critical care with Covid-19 in the UK in December, though they make up only 10% of the population. Obviously these cases add greatly to the pressure on the NHS. It’s also clear now that though vaccinated people do contract and spread Covid, unvaccinated people do so at higher rates.

      DR MICHAEL MOSLEY: Why vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity (and why unjabbed Novak Djokovic is so wrong to claim he's protected by antibodies after a recent bout of Covid)
      [15 January 2022]
      Being a bit delusional can actually be good for you!
      As a natural pessimist, I’ve worked hard to look on the bright side of life and believe things will work out, as I know it’s good for me: optimists tend to live longer, be healthier and sleep better.

      My wife, Clare, is an optimist and I find it galling that she refuses to share some of my more negative predictions about the future. I sometimes wonder if her optimism is a form of self-delusion.

      If so, she’s not alone. According to researchers from the University of Antwerp in Belgium, self-delusion is very common. In a recent paper in the journal Philosophical Psychology, they describe different techniques we use to protect our fragile egos from the harsh realities of life. Many of these techniques, I must admit, I recognise.

      First, there is the ‘reorganisation of beliefs’. An example of this is parents who are convinced their child is brilliant and blame bad grades on the teacher. Another technique, if you are determined to hold on to your beliefs, is to avoid going anywhere where those beliefs might be challenged. And if they are challenged, why not just reject what you are being told by casting doubt on the credibility of the source?

      Finally, you can just tune out the stuff you don’t want to hear. Perhaps your doctor tells you that you are in good shape but could do with losing some weight. All you hear is: ‘You’re in good shape.’

      Does it matter? In many circumstances a bit of self-delusion can be a good thing.

      Amen to that – otoh some self-awareness of self-delusion tendencies can be a good thing too, particularly during a pandemic.

  7. Adrian 7
    15 January 2022 at 11:05 am

    This is behaving like the 1918 Call It What You Like Flu epidemic which apparently ripped through the country in 3 months, only sparing those who may have had some residual immunity from the 1890 Russian version. Imagine the carnage this time if we didn’t have the medical knowledge and technology and a VACCINE that is giving an elevated level of protection. Omicron would be killing all of those compromised by co-morbidities that are now covered if the slower Alpha and Delta had not bought us time and cover.
    Not to mention excellent political courage and intelligence and empathy.

    • LILMAN 8.1
      15 January 2022 at 2:48 pm

      The fact that the PMs boyfriend cant even front to say I was wrong shows me the PM is not my leader,Ive got to find another party,it wont be someone who treats me and my country with contempt.

      • woodart 8.1.1
        15 January 2022 at 2:57 pm

        good on you. glad that you have thought long and deeply about all of the this. cant be going off half-cocked. when you find that party, dont moan when they treat you and the country as an experiment, asset to be flogged, etc, etc.

      • mpledger 8.1.2
        15 January 2022 at 4:24 pm

        Freedom means people can make decisions that other people disagree with. If you don't want people to have that freedom then feel free to find a more authoritarian party.

        • Bill 8.1.2.1
          15 January 2022 at 8:46 pm

          Freedom means people can make decisions that other people disagree with

          Yup. Like declining the opportunity to have an injection that does not perform as advertised, and not facing life altering consequences imposed by third parties (ie – government)

      • observer 8.1.3
        15 January 2022 at 4:47 pm

        If the partner of the PM commenting incorrectly on the type of Covid test available (a news story with zero relevance to all the policies and decisions of government) is your definition of

        someone who treats me and my country with contempt.

        then I hate to break it to you but you will not find a single country – never mind party, never mind politician – who meets your standards.

        Tip: if you're going to act outraged, don't chew the scenery. No Oscar for you.

      • observer 8.1.4
        15 January 2022 at 5:02 pm

        PS Another tip for "Lilman". When you say

        Ive got to find another party

        please remember that people can read your previous posts, to find out how attached you are to said party. So ease up on the porkies. "I'm loyal Labour but now I'm quitting" was already old about a week after the internet began.

        How is your new life in Australia?

    • weka 8.2
      15 January 2022 at 3:37 pm

      you're skating on thin ice there. If there is a connection between CG and Sroubek, put up the evidence. Otherwise stop with the slurs. This is a political blog, make a political argument or go to FB.

    • Jester 8.3
      15 January 2022 at 4:36 pm

      Don't think Clarke had anything to do with that. That was Richie Hardcore texting Jacinda directly regarding Karel Sroubek.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/110018901/karel-sroubek-a-good-guy-richie-hardcore-says-in-text-to-pm-jacinda-ardern

    • Patricia Bremner 8.4
      15 January 2022 at 4:42 pm

      Pataua and Lilman you call him… you seem to want more information. The Election is next year so save your DP ’till then.

  9. joe90 9
    15 January 2022 at 6:24 pm

    The Danes have accused Russia of cooking up a bogus letter to a US Senator, purportedly from Greenland's foreign minister, saying there would be an independence referendum. US Senator Tom Cotton reckons he gave Trump the idea to buy Greenland.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/denmark-accuses-china-russia-iran-espionage-threat-2022-01-13/

  10. Gezza 10
    15 January 2022 at 6:47 pm

    Footage of pretty sizeable unstoppable sequence of tsunami waves maybe a metre or more high currently hitting Nukualofa just shown on 1ewes at 6.

    Coming from that erupting Tongan volcano, which is said to be exploding so loudly it’s rattling windows in Nukualofa, 65 kilometres away. The skies are so full of ash it’s quite dark there, according to a local female reporter.

    Fingers crossed there are no fatalities, there have been tsunami warnings over the past few days telling people to stay away from waterfronts & beaches, but the reporter is clearly very concerned about some people living on low lying islands & peninsulas with no high ground to go to.

    Sounds like the tsunamis are hitting all the Tongan islands.

  12. Koff 12
    15 January 2022 at 8:54 pm

    Sailed past Hunga-Tonga-Hunga-Ha-apai 4 years ago on passage from NZ. It had only erupted and appeared above sea the year before and wasn't on the charts. Tongatapu and the Ha-apais are low lying islands with no hills to speak of so must be pretty scary for anyone on the coast. We last had a tsunami warning in Great Barrier Island when the earthquake happened in Kaikoura. Slept through the warnings and nothing happened, but friends on a boat in Whangamata were to to go up a hill.

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