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Open Mike 15/07/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:03 am, July 15th, 2018 - 152 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

152 comments on “Open Mike 15/07/2018 ”

  1. esoteric pineapples 1

    “Many of the immigrant children ruthlessly separated from their family by the Trump administration are being shipped to a Christian adoption agency with ties to Education Secretary Betsy DeVos.

    Rewire News reports on the condition of some of those children separated from their family:

    Migrant children in Michigan who have been separated from their parents by the Trump administration are attending “a special school” run by Bethany Christian Services, an anti-choice organization with a record of coercive adoption practices that has yet to receive instructions about how to reunify these children with their detained parents.

    The Other 98%, a left leaning Facebook page, explains more about the controversial Bethany Christian Services and their relationship with Trump’s Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, noting:

    Bethany Christian Services, an adoption center with financial ties to [Education Secretary] Betsy DeVos, has taken 81 immigrant children who were forcibly separated from their parents at the border. Most have had no contact with their families. They’re charging $700 per child per night. This isn’t foster care, this is state-sponsored kidnapping.”


    • One Two 1.1

      CPS have been in the the same ‘line of business’ within US boarders for decades…

      Locals or immigrants…are all targetted by the same predators…

      Examining isolated instances and seeking to map the actions to an administration is to miss the wider truth…

      That the system is the predator…the entire sytem including all the public ‘departments’ which are actually private businesses…

      Gorging on human energy to exist…

    • David Mac 1.2

      It’s a helluva deterrent. ‘Don’t sneak into the US with your kids because you won’t see them until they’re old enough to find you, if they want to.’

      The stats could move and give Trump something that isn’t a lie to trumpet about.

      • Sabine 1.2.1

        The citizens of the US should know that what happens to others as a ‘deterrent’ can quickly happen to them.

        But then history tends to repeat itself.

  2. marty mars 2

    I don’t really agree with a lot JMG has written here but I know some will love it and it is interesting.


    • David Mac 2.1

      Yeah Marty, agree or disagree, it’s tasty prose.

      The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Centre.


  3. Adrian 3

    Really lucky to be in Trafalger Sq yesterday, we joined our Daughter With A Placard. Don’t worry about the kids they’re goin’be alright. Huge cheers for Jeremy Corbyn so glad he turned up, starting to get a few clues about how to win an election. Tory supporters seem confused, like how can their heroes be so bloody incompetent.

  4. Adrian 4

    On another note, we have been trying to move around England and any turkey that says we need more population I will persoally strangle when Iget back home.

    • patricia bremner 4.1

      Enjoy your trip Adrian.

    • Bewildered 4.2

      How you planted some tree re your carbon foot print 😊

      • Adrian 4.2.1

        Yeah, we stuck the stick it was on in a Parliament Square garden.That should do it.
        Mind you I’ve now got to pay penance for 8 laps around Silverstone Grand Prix circuit in a Ferrari 430 today, but on the upside it produced a lot of organic fertilizer that had to be cleaned out of the car.

  5. Robert Guyton 5

    Brian Eno is spot on with this. I reckon it’s required listening (only 3 minutes 🙂
    Bill, you might enjoy this (if you’re not already familiar with it).

    • AB 5.1

      Robert – thank-you. Made my morning that.

    • David Mac 5.2

      I was in the midst of my formative years when Eno left Roxy Music and explored his Ambient music genre. I dug it. It’s cool to catch up with him.

      I still dig him. He’s right, machines are better at most traditional jobs. Seeya welders, drivers and bricklayers. In an ideal world we would be evolving our way towards the opportunity for the whole village to embrace and chase what is in their hearts. There’s room for more dreams fulfilled. Not jobs but what we do.

  6. The Chairman 6

    One year ago this weekend, Metiria Turei took the stage and built up the hopes of many, what have the Greens done since then to further the economic justice cause?

    According to this opinion piece in the link below, absolutely nothing.


    • KJT 6.1

      Fake news from The Chairman.

      • The Chairman 6.1.1

        I didn’t pen the opinion piece.

        Moreover, you failed to substantiate your assertion.

        • mauī

          The opinion piece was scum and reposting it was scum.

          • The Chairman

            And your reasoning for this conclusion is?

            • David Mac

              Most stories can be spun one way or another. You seem to be drawn towards those stories that have the potential to be spun up like tops.

              I’m sure you’ve heard the story about the attention seeking little boy that ran down from the hills every morning with his hands aflapping and shrieking “The Wolf is coming”. Can you see how some people would draw comparisons between your contributions to this blog and that little boy?

              I have to make a conscious effort to fight that urge Chairman.

              • The Chairman

                I’m drawing attention to the fact the Greens have done little on the economic justice front. Thus, we on the left should be upping the pressure for them to act. Which is far better than showing our discontent in the polling booth come next election.

                So do you care to comment on that?

                If you care to only focus on the opinion piece linked, care to point out what you think is being spun? Moreover, in what way do you believe it is being spun?

                • David Mac

                  “I’m drawing attention to the fact the Greens have done little”

                  The first part of your response encapsulates every one of your posts Chair.

                  We’ll need to see the wolves amongst the lambs Chair, then we’ll go and get the keys to the gun cabinet and set the alarm bells ringing.

                  • The Chairman

                    Are you alright there, Dave? You’re coming across as a bit of a nutter.

                    I seriously hope you don’t have a gun cabinet.

                    I was thinking more along the lines of the Greens advocating for employees on the Government’s tree planting scheme to receive their fair share of the Government’s investment by receiving the living wage.

                    I’d like to see the Greens push forward the start of the cheaper doctors visits. As usual, winter is having its toll on the health system as people put off going to the doctors and turn up at hospitals.

                    I’d also like to see the Greens advocating for an increase and extension to the winter energy payments.

                    These are just a number of small steps the Greens could have taken to advance their economic justice cause. I’ve yet to see them even talk about doing any of these.

                    But I have been assured they are doing what they can.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Those seem sensible suggestions (even if you are sea-lioning) but you are advocating from a leftist greens perspective as if they’re still in opposition. Their mana, in their current political context, will increase in direct proportion to the extent that they are seen to be team players by the coalition partners. They know that.

                    • The Chairman

                      @Dennis Frank

                      You say I’m advocating from a leftist greens perspective as if they’re still in opposition.

                      No. Not at all.

                      See my post to Bewildered

                      Open Mike 15/07/2018

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Yeah, that response was reasonable, but it still seems to me that you’re not really factoring in that the GP is now operating in a totally different political context. Our parliamentarians have adjusted accordingly.

                      I also think you haven’t integrated the extent to which Metiria’s stand was personal. I supported her on a couple of political blogs at the time (“beneficiaries deserve to have reps in parliament”) while criticising her poor political judgment as well. You can’t reasonably expect other MPs to be bound by her personal stand. Why don’t beneficiaries form their own party? Plenty enough of them!

                    • The Chairman

                      @Dennis Frank

                      It’s been factored in. And it’s no different to them securing their other wins. In fact, easier in some respect as the policies were happening regardless. Thus, squeezing a few more pennies out of the Government wouldn’t have been such a big task, but would have been a big boost for their support. And as for the living wage, it wouldn’t of added to the Government’s cost.

                      Metiria’s stand was supported by the party, which promised to continue on the cause.

                      Moreover, economic justice is part of what the Greens stand for. Albeit they are currently doing little on that front.

      • marty mars 6.2.1

        despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage…

        • joe90

          Dude’s sealioning..

          • marty mars

            I know i just wanted to put the song up – reminded me of the chair.

          • Robert Guyton

            Joe, that’s spot on! Mind if I paste the content?
            A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum. The name “sea-lioning” comes from a Wondermark comic strip.”

            • David Mac

              Ha, yeah, it’s a thing. News to me.

              I still wonder if Chair is a Green lover or hater. The Father of a n’er do well child or a John Key guy pretending to care.

              Guess I could find out if I cared more, I sort of like the intrigue.

              • Robert Guyton

                “I still wonder if Chair is a Green lover…”

                He’s not.

                You’re welcome.

      • David Mac 6.2.2

        Sealion…is a good name for a boat, don’t think I’ve seen it used before. The ocean king of the jungle.

        A seal would look good in a mane.

    • Dennis Frank 6.3

      Written by a twenty-something leftist guy, but not too banal until you get to this:

      “The future of the party might be Chloe Swarbrick and the urban millennials who now fill the backroom office, but a lot of the loudest supporters are still protest-hardened veterans who want to upend the economic order completely. Thus far, these Marxist-leaning Green voters have got the least out of the party in Government, which is ironic, given it was arguably Turei’s big economic justice speech that got the party into Government in the first place.”

      Half a century in the Green movement in Aotearoa as of this year, and I’ve yet to encounter a “Marxist-leaning Green voter”. Five years as an office-holder in the GP early nineties, didn’t spot any there either. Nor in the GP since rejoining three years ago. If this young dude ventures into the forest, I bet he’ll see unicorns.

      • The Chairman 6.3.1

        One assumes his reference to Marxist-leaning Greens is a reference to the Sue Bradford types that remain.

      • KJT 6.3.2

        Greens that support democratic socialism, he means.
        Never met a Marxist in the Green party.

        • The Chairman

          Yes, those democratic socialists that support economic justice and that helped get the Greens into power have got the least out of the party thus far.

          Why are we waiting?

          “Doing what we can” doesn’t seem to be eventuating into anything. Do better.

          And again, do you lot require some help with that?

    • Robert Guyton 6.4

      The Chair’s in the house – confidence levels plummet!

    • Draco T Bastard 6.5

      Seems to be a propaganda piece designed to discredit the Greens and all the progress that they’ve been making as part of government.

      • The Chairman 6.5.1

        “Seems to be a propaganda piece designed to discredit the Greens…”

        Yet, it claims the Greens are winning the war.

  7. The Chairman 7

    Jacinda knows too well the importance of bringing the public on board, therefore is the stage being set for her to show leadership and help settle public sector wage disputes upon her return?

    Or is Labour playing hardball with Unions to appease businesses fear decent public sector wage settlements will set a precedent, thus increase private sector wage demands and expectations?

    Businesses have expressed this fear and intentionally or not, Labour’s stance (there is no more money) helps to appease it.

    • infused 7.1

      I don’t think that’s it at all. Business knows Labour have money and they are simply holding back.

      Either way, that’s not going to change business confidence. That’s low because they don’t seem to know what they are going to implement and how they are going to do it.

      • The Chairman 7.1.1

        Who do you think Labour are appeasing by holding back the money?

        Currently, the Government is on the wrong side of public opinion in this dispute. Do you think Jacinda’s return will see Labour correct that positioning or do you think her return will see their current stance harden?

        • Robert Guyton

          Gloom and misery and a plodge of smear as well – the Chairman’s legacy.

          • The Chairman

            Jacinda can either offer public sector workers more gloom and misery or help facilitate an amicable settlement to this impasse.

            What do you think her legacy will be?

        • patricia bremner

          Chairman, The Coalition Government may be waiting and holding back money, to see whether mico plasma bovis costs could esculate. ( No reply required.)

      • bwaghorn 7.1.2

        Another day another this is what we are going to do from labour

        Business needs to stop being silly brats and get going

        • BM.

          Of those homes 3000 will be state homes, 3500 will be affordable and KiwiBuilds, and 3500 market price homes.

          3500 market price homes

          Are they going to be different to the Kiwi Build homes?

        • BM

          Of those homes 3000 will be state homes, 3500 will be affordable and KiwiBuilds, and 3500 market price homes.

          3500 market price homes

          Are they going to be different to the Kiwi Build homes?

          • bwaghorn

            Don’t care
            The more houses the better .
            I think you will see the kiwibuild ones being a for of rent to own were kiwibuild Inc will keep ownership till there is enough equity for the new owner to go it alone .

          • David Mac

            The market price ones might provide more upfront funding benefits. Houses sold and a govt guaranteed deposit paid prior to cables and pipes being laid.

          • Graeme

            While KiwiBuild isn’t being promoted as a “subsidy”, it appears the government will be buying the KiwiBuild component of a development “off the plan”. This should be pretty attractive to developers and allow a lot of new projects to get going.

            That’s probably not that different to what happens now where a few good units or sections, along with a couple of cheepies are offered at launch and the developer hopes like hell someone will bite and give the capital to get the show on the road.

            But with the price constraints on KiwiBuild, yes the houses or units will be different to “market” properties.

            In Queenstown we’ve got this, which is doing something sort of similar to KiwiBuild, and maybe better, http://www.newground.co.nz/queenstown-mixed-tenure-housing/ https://www.toruapartments.co.nz The ownership of some units won’t be exactly freehold, more a closed / controlled / mixed model, but the clout of the Housing Trust got it off the ground. Can see some KB uptake coming in too. Prices start at $495,000 when there’s not much around for less than a million.

            • David Mac

              Turning 10 acres into 100 homes has a history of being pretty risky.

              Funders know this and treat ventures accordingly. Applicants need to walk on water.

              A govt that greases those paths, lowers the risks associated with going all in on 20 houses…we’ll get what we deserve.

              • Graeme

                The devil will undoubtedly be in the detail, read contract that the developer will be signing to get the KiwiBuild sale. I can’t see the government loosing.

                But most of that risk is in the very start, getting those first few sales to get the project moving. A huge percentage of developments just don’t get that traction, at least around Queenstown. I don’t have any real figures, but my gut feeling would be well above 50%, and maybe 70%+ of probably quite good ideas don’t run. You could say that’s darwinian market forces, but it’s also developers and financiers not being willing to take a risk at the lower end of the market. The margin is just not there, or more the margin is better further up and the development is safer.

                One solid purchaser, being KiwiBuild, vs 20 or 30 individuals that might disappear on you at settlement (happened here in 2008 to the demise of many developers) should be a pretty good deal.

                • David Mac

                  Housing developments of late get pushed along by handsome thin men in expensive suits. They don’t swing hammers, they get manicures.

                  Don’t we want to be talking to those guys that said ‘Uh Oh’ after the 1st leaky building was completed? The guy in the leather apron of tools rather than the Armani dude.

                  How do we grease the path for the guys that know what they’re doing? Know how to get things done.

                  • Graeme

                    I think KiwiBuild is on the right track. It’s going to get those that are “all but” getting into ownership out of rentals and into a freehold. It’s going to make it easier for the apartment developers, and in Queenstown that’s a desperate need.

                    There’s been a lot of brown field apartment developments that haven’t gone anywhere because they couldn’t get the pre-sales and finance together, maybe they could have with KB. I doubt standalone KiwiBuild properties will happen here, in reality I don’t think there will be any more pavlova paradises in Queenstown, entry will be appartments.

                    I worked for Neil in the late 70’s. A very similar situation where the government stoked the entry level housing market with Family Benefit capitalisation. And it worked. Maybe that could be recycled with WFF once KB hits the affordability wall.

  8. marty mars 9

    Neat – reminded me of the far righties

    “When the sun was young and faint and the Earth was barely formed, a gigantic black hole in a distant, brilliant galaxy spat out a powerful jet of radiation. That jet contained neutrinos – subatomic particles so tiny and difficult to detect they are nicknamed “ghost particles.” ”


  9. CHCOff 10

    Wide participation of the New Zealand way of life via unified healthy and strong population of independent communities in NZ sports club culture, a major basis of our traditonal egalitarian roots before neo-liberalism’s wreaking ball.

    That way as a people we can be best practise in values but able to stand up for ourselves as a society and people should things come to worst case.

    The local myopic neo-liberalism of our hoarding elitism is too amateur and out of it’s depth, as it has in part contributed to the problem, & it’s shabby incompetent preparedness will be too late by half if probabilities are not properly weighed and given due consideration while the train is still on the tracks.



  10. gsays 11

    A bit of feedback post nurses strike.
    In palmy a bit of disappointment in some of the senior nursing colleagues deciding to cross picket line and work.
    These scabs, had prior to the industrial action talked a good talk but when it mattered….
    Is there a term for someone who puts in an appearance on the picket line then crosses it and works?

    Positively speaking, a few senior doctors expressed surprise and admiration for the seen and unseen job nurses do.

    Not sure where from here, but the feeling is positive and united amongst the workers.

    Jolly empowering, downing tools.

    • The Chairman 11.1

      Unless the Government comes to the party with more funding, further industrial action seems imminent.

      • Robert Guyton 11.1.1

        Eeyore! Eeyore!

        • patricia bremner

          So right Robert!! I loved Pooh sticks, and Eeyore always thinking his “would never win”.
          I have a visual of Eeyore floating down the river with his legs in the air!! LOL

      • OnceWasTim 11.1.2

        By Joves yes @ The Chairman. You might be correct going forward. And what’s Godawful worse, I see that business confidence is down, and there are a number of others lining up and threatening industrial action and better working conditions going forward, on the back of a decade of under-funding and under-resourcing of critical services.
        Why, even on Q+A this morning, the sage Corin Dann alluded to the possibility of the NZ Police being next. Can you imagine! Quelle horreur! Just for one moment – imagine the quinisquences. It could become like some Hayseed Dixie Bohemian Rhapsody.
        It really is a sorry, sorry state of affairs.
        Thank gawd you’re comfy though eh? It must be a real relief knowing you’ve planned your life so exceptionally well, and that you’re so much better than all those other poor unfortunates. I’m truly awestruck. They can’t even get off their chuffs long enough to work hard and become the self made man, able to afford the luxury of pontification. We really should all aspire to be like you.
        Eeyore! Eeyore!

        • The Chairman

          Yes, despite Labour’s moves to appease businesses, confidence is down. Leaving some asking, why bother?

          Especially seeing as at the same time, Labour’s moves to help appease businesses is putting at risk the party’s support. Potentially turning workers in the public sector (and the public that largely supports them) against them.

          While my life may be more comfortable than some, I to am feeling the pinch.

        • patricia bremner

          Brilliant OncewasTim. 1000%

    • SaveNZ 11.2

      The nurses need to be paid a lot more especially from when they first start nursing to keep them in that field. According to this pay scale a REGISTERED nurse only gets $26.68 per hour. And the pay does not increase much as they get experience.


      To survive on that in Auckland is a joke.

      Then add in 3 years degree, post graduate study and the costs of all that with student loans and then go on to earn half of a registered plumber (approx$50 – $90 p/h)

      The average police officer earns more than a nurse in NZ but does not need to have a degree to enter the police force. So it seems that nurses are very undervalued in the sector.

      It also looks like aged care nurses are paid LESS from the link, so again the bad employers in that very profitable sector are moaning to government they can’t find people, while paying them less, surprise surprise. Most migrants enter via aged care as it’s easier entry into the country, then as soon as they can they swap to the higher wages and better conditions away from the aged care. So again they need to address WHY people do not stay in that sector (aged care) (paying 3% less of an underpaid profession, while doing a difficult job is probably why!)

      Could a registered nurse afford that Kiwibuild home, does not look like it. So something is wrong with declining wages and the cost of building in NZ.

      We will be a country of lawyers and accountants who produce nothing, but sadly when we get sick, there is not gonna be enough experienced nurses and doctors, especially in Auckland.

      Kiwibuild should have been designed to help workers in important sectors like nurses and police and teachers, fire fighters, medical professionals etc to live here cheaply, so those essential workers can afford to live in Auckland and save while doing so.

      They are forced to compete against those who just studies here and have money from their parents can get a cheap Kiwibuild house, knocking out others who the city actually needs to be here. It has not been very well thought out what will happen in Auckland in 5 years time nor any statistics on what happens to those who gain residency and what they do with their ‘skill’ post permanent residency aka change to a better paid sector so the shortages are constant because underlying issues of poor conditions and wages in that sector related to living costs, are not being met.

      • KJT 11.2.1

        You lost credibility when you conflated a tradespersons charge out rate with wages.

        A plumber has to meet insurance, tools, travel, a van, holidays, sick leave, ACC, training, registration and guarentees out of his/her charge out rate. And still charges a quarter of a lawyers rate, despite having twice the expenses.

        A journeyman plumber, without has own business would be lucky to get $20/hour.

        It is not directly comparable with nurses hourly wage rates.

        • SaveNZ

          That is probably true aka cheap plumbing rates for workers, but I suggest you call out a registered plumber in Auckland and see what they are charged out at. First there is the travel, then call out charge and then $50 – $90 p/h, then there will be a massive mark up on materials. That is where the excessive pricing in Auckland it coming from, construction firms giving massive mark ups on everything while keeping the actual wages of many plumbers/workers low.

          Neoliberalism is only able to work because the free market is not a contained system and they are using globalism to bring in cheap workers.. while expecting the countries welfare system aka taxpayer money to provide the employer income support between the low wages and high living costs.

          The comparison is to show what is going to happen in expensive cities, aka the essential workers like nurses are going to be hit hard and marginalised on their salary, and then industries like construction can only keep workers by using migrants labour to make the profit margins higher.

          But actually keeps experienced people out of that industry because they look at other sectors that pay higher. Likewise the corporations can profit further because our government is subsidising their wages via accomodation and WFF and other methods. Instead of actually trying to get a consistent wage across sectors such as paying more to nurses.

          Then in construction there is the materials themselves such as ironsand being practically given away by NZ government and councils…. the environmental costs being given to the locals both flora and funa as well as people living there while the corporation profits.

          In case anyone hasn’t noticed, NZ is one of the highest countries in the world per square meter to build, even though we give away the resources for practically nothing and pay the workers practically nothing and now giving away public land for purchase for practically nothing both high country and now prime land.

          Somethings wrong with how the NZ government are thinking about the issues.

          We need the nurses and need the plumbers but we don’t need all the overhead of ‘profiteering’ via middlemen that has become the NZ way. Where hospitals have considerable highly paid staff outside of direct medicine who call the shots and construction pay low wages but our house prices are high and slow to build.

  11. patricia bremner 12

    Henry Cooke, writing and Green bashing and selective memory. Not good Henry….. I think my first impressions were right… a bit of a Nat really.

    • The Chairman 12.1

      Care to enlighten us a bit more by providing some examples that would back your assertions (Green bashing, selective memory, etc)?

      • KJT 12.1.1

        As you have already proved in the past to be simply, a Green basher, similar to the article writer, you have blown any credibility you may have had.

        • SaveNZ

          Maybe with the decline of the votes for Greens it’s time they listen to some of the issues being talked about rather than attacking the messengers and that is true of their other supporters.

          I don’t necessarily agree with The Chairman about what has gone wrong with the Greens, because I think a reasonable amount of Green voters are actually wealthy or doing ok and want to keep NZ as a beautiful country that is clean and green as well as socially equal, but on the other hand I find it disconcerting that he gets attacked overtime he makes a point and it is a personal attack rather than debate on what he/she has said.

          Greens could do with the debate, because their vote shrink shows they are not connecting with people as they used to, and Labour need them to get over 5% too, so it’s not just for the Greens.

          • KJT

            That is because over a long period of time, he has proved he is more interested in bashing the Greens, rather than being accurate.

            • SaveNZ

              I think Green supporters should dispute his/her point or link, not him/her personally. Doesn’t make the Green Party look good, if their supporters are all at war with each other not in a constructive way but a personal way.

              Green Party needs to go back to being more of a Broadchurch aka Labour strategy. This means including Green voters from poor to rich, young to old. Not thinking there is some niche to appeal to that they seem to be getting wrong mostly a sort of war against middle class home owners vs beneficiaries like last election, and ignoring what the fuck has happened over the last decade.

              Went to some Greenpeace talk led by Russell Norman a while ago and was astonished to see so many older affluent types there. I don’t think that group is targeted by the current Greens but those from the 1970’s flower power are still around and were voting Green but maybe stopped now.

              The Green’s saving grace is their Policy which is hard to change. But the present lot seem in my view taking a very odd approach to Green policy in many areas such as giving their questions to the Natz and giving the go ahead for foreign water sales while being against it.

              Greens fail to realise that most people don’t want to be on a benefit so having an increase in money for benefits isn’t what so many people want, they want social mobility aka going from Paula Bennet/beneficiary to real wealth and being in parliament. No point getting xtra $200 a week when transport/housing/power/education is out of control and benefits can be reversed by the next government policy.

              People want genuine change that is not just taking from the middle class to the poor but to actually go back to an age of social mobility and local democracy including housing and water and genuine clean green NZ.

              To do that Greens have to understand that people can be income poor but rich due to the many ways people are legally allowed to move/reduce income or in the case of those coming from overseas, unable to work out taxable income. So everything to do with ‘taxable income’ is not an equaliser anymore for taxation. Areas such as Robin Hood tax should be looked to respond to the changing demographics, Natx stupidity or planning and inequality in NZ.

              • AsleepWhileWalking

                @SaveNZ you hit the nail on the head with people wanting upward mobility in preference to benefits.

                Phrase most often heard: I just want to get away from them.

                • The Chairman

                  A couple of points.

                  First off, I agree people do want upward mobility. Nevertheless, we do require a benefit system that is fit for purpose, which should encompass livable payment rates.

                  Secondly, some are destine to be on benefits for years to come due to poor health or other disabilities, therefore shouldn’t be destine to live a life of poverty.

              • KJT

                “People want genuine change that is not just taking from the middle class to the poor but to actually go back to an age of social mobility and local democracy including housing and water and genuine clean green NZ”.

                That is what we had when the upper middle classes used to pay their taxes. I paid about 50% of my income in tax. (It was worth it, to live in a functional society) It doesn’t happen for free!

                It will never happen if Government artificially keep their part of the economy to 30%. Successful countries have a Government share over 50%.

                Trickle down does not work. The wealthy are expert at wasting money.

                Upward mobility depends, firstly, on having enough to eat and somewhere to live.

                • SaveNZ

                  Half rich listers pay tax not at the highest rate…. How do you tax people who benefit but don’t live in the country or are not even a person but a company or trust? The left led with that message (higher PAYE taxes and other taxes on residents) for a decade which kept the Natz in power, middle classes don’t want to be the only ones paying taxes for all in this country.

                  We now are subsidising the supermarkets and McDonalds minimum wage employers with multimillion turnovers of the world $5000 a year in WFF while the left idea of equality is to tell those who are Doctors (after 7 years of student loans and massive sacrifice) to pay more taxes, while championing the 3 x bankrupt developers, inept business like Fletchers, and others making $100 million but somehow go bankrupt before paying their bills?

        • The Chairman

          You may call it Green bashing. But what I do is hold them to accountant.

          Moreover, I tend to also offer them an alternative to consider.

      • patricia bremner 12.1.2

        Green bashing… Communist LOL wouldn’t know one if he fell over one.
        Andrew stood down because Meteria hogged the limelight…. HO. Andrew stood down because he faced he didn’t have Jacinda’s cut through. (I know that)
        Make Jacinda do something she doesn’t want to!! HO HO Good luck!!
        Others have commented well, so don’t bother Chairman.
        I have given that journalist the benefit of the doubt before.
        First it was..Greens would get more from National.. Yeah Right!! (Nat looking for friends)
        Then, it was Greens going down the gurgler caused by Labour!! LOL (We Nats want their % party share to drop and ours might increase) Give me strength.
        You had already put the article up.

    • Robert Guyton 12.2

      You’re spot on, Patricia

      • The Chairman 12.2.1

        Attacking the author rather than directly addressing what was stated tends to be “spot on” with your approach, Robert.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          Give it up TC.

          Supporters of the Current Incumbents are as one-eyed and belligerent as supporters of the Previous Incumbents.

          Sad, and dangerous.

          Despite some fairly obvious wheel spinning from this Coalition, criticism (however well meaning and constructive) will not be tolerated.

          • Bewildered

            Agree; exactly what Hooton was getting at last week in his rant against Stephen Mills on RNZ Hoots can be over the top but at least he has a view and critiques both sides , mills and mickey and thier ilk appear to simply tow a party line or default to 9 years of neglect, very intellectualy dishonest in my book

            • patricia bremner

              And if we ignored said 9 years of neglect, would that help you forget that truth?

              • Bewildered

                Happy with 9 years of neglect if in context of gfc, 2 major earthquakes, that National entered power with nz entering recession and government budget deficits even before GFC hit , likewise house price rises is not a national phenomenon, they where rising under labour who had a great strategy of shrinking country wirh negative migration as people voted with thier feet Such a great strategy Labour and coalition on course to repeat again

          • KJT

            I am on record as being critical of the current Government, especially around the self defeating and irresponsible “budget responsibility rules” and the TPPA. however, whenever a critic descends into invoking the “communist” bogey (Marxist FFS), they have lost the plot.

            And no matter how much a well intentioned Government fluffs around, they are never going to do as much harm as National’s deliberate, self interested, vandalism.

            • The Chairman

              Economic injustice is a problem this country requires to fix. So instead of claiming fake news, join with me to remind the Greens we’re still waiting.

              • KJT

                The Greens are doing what we can.

                A massive handbrake in the form of Winston Peters, and Labours neo-liberals, still exists.

                Not to mention the degree of benny bashing:, prejudice and tolerance of poverty, amongst those who don’t give a shit, so long as they are OK.

                • The Chairman

                  “The Greens are doing what we can.”


                  There is far more you should and could be doing.

                  Are you lot so useless do you require me to list a few things?

                • Bewildered

                  It’s not a massive hand brake it is the will of the populace, the greens polled just above 5pc and are probably lower now, it’s far left policies have little support and no mandate at all The greens are better of in opposition at least there they can let off steam and make their followers feel better

                  • The Chairman

                    While the Greens have little power they do have some influence. Thus have secured a number of wins.

                    Moreover, they’ve built up an expectation they would continue to fight for Metiria’s cause. Therefore, one would have expected to at least see them advocate and use this influence a bit more. Albeit, even if they failed to secure more wins.

                    For example, the following below are a number of areas where policy was happening regardless, thus the Greens should have used the opportunity to advocate for a little more economic justice.

                    The Greens could have advocated for employees on the Government’s tree planting scheme to receive their fair share of the Government’s investment by receiving the living wage.

                    The Greens could have advocated to push forward the start of cheaper doctors visits.

                    The Greens could of advocated for an increase and extension to the winter energy payments.

                    • KJT

                      What makes you think we didn’t.

                      Except for winter energy payments. Should be bringing power back into public ownership and removing the private taxation of power users.

                  • KJT

                    Funny how if you ask people which policies they support, without a party label, the overwhelming majority prefer Green policies.

                    A majority for CGT, dealing with AGW, and against asset sales and the TPPA for example.

                    Which is why both Labour and National, suddenly pretend to be more caring and left wing, before every election.

                    • The Chairman

                      “What makes you think we didn’t.”

                      Because it wasn’t communicated.

                      And if the party recognised the importance of this work being seen, it would have been widely communicated.

                      Communications being another area that is lacking when it comes to the Greens.

                      The winter energy payment is the only increase people (on benefits) without young dependents are going to get from this Government. Therefore, it was one of the only opportunities the Greens realistically had to secure them a little more.

                      As a sweetener to help attain this objective, the Greens could have gone through their policy wins to see if savings, small cutbacks or partial deferrals could be made/found, thus offered up to help accommodate a deal.

                      As for the living wage suggestion, it won’t add to the Government’s cost as that will be paid by the return from the investment.

                      This is the kind of thinking and actions one would assume would be coming from the Greens, yet despite your assurance they are doing what they can, we’ve seen nothing of the sort.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury

              You’re own record as moaning they aren’t far left enough for your liking. It’s hardly comparable with what @bewildered was pointing out about Hooton.

              Nice try though

          • The Chairman

            I’ve got broad shoulders, Rosemary. Moreover, the problems we face are far too important to let the current incumbent’s cheerleaders deter me.

            But thanks just the same.

            • Robert Guyton

              Take Rosemary’s advice, Chairman – give it up. Your spiel is transparent and we identified your intent long ago. You continue to plead innocent, but no one (bar others of your ilk) is fooled. Like rust, you don’t sleep, but we detect the tang of iron oxide every time you comment and you are not to our taste.

              • The Chairman

                You have identified nothing, Robert. All you largely do is attack the messenger as you’re a self confessed troll.

                Moreover, despite how much you despise me and what I stand for, I represent a part of the left the Greens and Labour require to keep on board.

                • Robert Guyton

                  I don’t despise you, Chairy, I see you for what you are, that’s all. Can’t help it, you’re so obvious . You “represent the part of the Left….”
                  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, ah me, oh my!
                  Good one!

                  • The Chairman

                    Clearly, you don’t see what I represent.

                    I’m part of the left that would like to see more from the Greens on economic justice. Where do you stand on that?

                    • In Vino

                      Chairman, you have blown your own cover so many times that I have given up replying to you. Your credibility rating is zilch for many, who, incidentally, find your persistence almost amusing, but who get tired of responding. I for one agree fully with Robert and Patricia.

                    • OnceWasTim

                      Can you enlighten us all as to what you would see as being economic justice? Most of the contributors here (I suspect) think of you as having a ‘special’ relationship with TS because of your valued contributions and dedication to making a comment from the armchair on everything, and I’m sure we’d all be better off if you could give us – even just a smidgen – of a definition of economic justice.
                      In fact I think you’re probably the highest level of special.
                      I’m certainly in awe of you.

                      Moreover, you’ll be dismayed to hear that I have problems growing rhubarb. The spinach does extremely well in my inner city soil type but the rhubarb rhubarb just does not want to take. I’d ask Robert G but I know you’re better equipped in the art of growing rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb

                    • In Vino

                      Thank you OnceWasTim.
                      You said it far better than I did!

                    • The Chairman

                      @ OnceWasTim

                      This little list below will give you the gist of where I’m coming from.

                      Livable benefit rates.
                      A living wage.
                      A progressive tax system.
                      Wage and conditions protection when contracts go up for tender and new operators take over.
                      Discounts or exemptions for the poor from aggressive taxes.

                    • In Vino

                      Yes, you often pretend convincingly to be truly Left. But then you consistently spread disillusionment, and encourage the Greens towards policies that will make them less popular..
                      So transparent and obvious over time. Too many have seen through you now.

                • KJT

                  I have come to conclusion, from you record, that rather than being left wing, you are a paid agent for ACT!

  12. Graeme 13

    One way to expand the reach of your town’s public transport system. Don’t wait for the local council, they don’t seem to know what’s going on, just do it….


  13. JO 14

    A taut think piece for a wet Sunday…


    ‘Most people who study economics only study a little before becoming politicians, journalists, civil servants, executives, lawyers and community leaders. That makes the most basic course—Economics 101—the most influential one. It frames the economic narrative in boardrooms, in editorial meetings, in parliamentary debates, and in public discourse.
    ‘Students wanting to discuss climate change, air pollution, or ocean acidification are offered just two words: “environmental externalities.” The logic is impeccable: with the market put centre stage on day one, anything outside market contracts is defined as external.
    But as the cognitive linguist George Lakoff teaches, words matter. If you care about refugees, you don’t call them “illegals”; if you care about Earth’s life-supporting systems, you don’t call them “externalities.”
    ‘…textbook theory tacitly assumes that economies can buck nature and succeed by growing forever. Students are rarely invited to consider whether endless GDP growth is desirable, necessary, or possible.’

    Yes, words matter. ‘Growth’ works for tumours and toxic algae too. To ‘Progress’ only means to go forwards; you can do this just as well in the dark, progressing boldly to the rim of a cliff, at the bottom of which you might still hope a handy ambulance will be waiting to rescue you when you land. Or not.

    • SaveNZ 14.1

      Good link and points. People are being taught an ideology of economics that is decades old, simplistic, one dimensional and irrelevant or actually adding to the planet problems and long term survival of ecosystems that sustain life!

    • KJT 14.2


      The extremists are the fruitcakes who think, “infinite growth in a finite planet” is even possible”.

      Combined with many of the wealthy, who want load the costs of decreasing growth in the rate of profit (I know, a Marxist concept) ,and climate change, onto the less well off, forever.

  14. marty mars 15

    Bad mistake – these emergency people need more support – they must be funded imo.


  15. cleangreen 16

    Here’s a futuristic idea, involving solar-powered trains.


    California renewable energy policy expert Tam Hunt has founded a new start-up to solar power trains.
    Solar Trains proposes constructing a solar canopy over miles of train track, enough to solar-power the nation’s electric train systems.
    About ten cities in the US have electric train systems. These include BART in California, and the NY Subway system (most of the NYC Subway is actually above ground once it leaves Manhattan).
    Electric rail is super sustainable already, but hardly a fast-evolving technology. Beginning as a visionary concept based on Jules Verne’s science fiction idea of a future in 1911, BART ultimately only began to be developed in 1946.

    Worth consideration for the future transport needs to plan now for?

    Best we keep all our rail system in place and use it all then.

  16. Siobhan 17

    Re:Free Tommy

    Crickey, looking at that photo, for a minute there i thought i’d clicked onto the Daily Mail. Much as i do love a good English sing-a-long “Free Tommy Tommy”

    Sundays would be much nicer if we just ignored these people.

    I prefer this speech by Corbyn as a more positive representation of the English peoples and their(and our) struggles and aspirations as they unfolded this week..

    “The Labour leader called for young people to be “fully equipped” to exercise their rights in the workplace.
    Speaking at the annual Durham Miners’ Gala, Mr Corbyn said the move was necessary as trade unions have been “marginalised, vilified and undermined” for years. Develop rights Labour proposes that the lessons form part of broader citizenship classes, though it did not give examples of exactly what would be taught. “Children should not only learn about trade unions and their rights at work, but should be fully equipped to exercise and develop those rights,” he told the celebration of working class culture.”

    Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-has-called-for-children-to-learn-about-trade-unions/

  17. Monty 18

    This is a interesting article and the comments section.

    This was a bottom line for NZF and Acting PM Peters said he would enter if I recall that correctly. I really want the families to get closure and answers and I hope they do with what is happening.

    I don’t know the answer but when do you say enough is enough 35m, 50m, 100m can you put a dollar amount in this, who knows?

    Could the money be better used for new homes, investment in the west coast to great jobs and better infrastructure, nurses (govt saying there is no more money) or more police and teachers.


    I am sure some on here will point to the flag referendum and the money spent on that as it’s a similar amount. I believe it was was a waste of money. However I personally would have liked to see the union jack removed from the flag and have something that was more identifiable as a symbol of NZ.

  18. joe90 19

    Oh dear…

    This is insane.Dana Rohrabacher, Joe Walsh, Trent Lott and Larry Pratt advocating for a “first responders” assault weapons class for….toddlers.Seriously. Watch this.Sacha Baron Cohen exposes the INSANITY of the gun lobby. pic.twitter.com/Ny5pxOlP1S— Mikel Jollett (@Mikel_Jollett) July 15, 2018


  19. lprent 20

    Pretty sure that I fixed the ‘remember the comment details’ issue for comments today before I went off for a sunday afternoon snooze. However I only bothered to test it on Linux Chrome and Firefox.

    If it isn’t working for someone on their second comment AND you are sure that you have left cookies enabled, then let me know the operating system and the browser versions.

    BTW I commented on it on yesterday’s open mike. In google pig latin just keep in the mood of the discussion.


    • joe90 20.1

      It’s working.

    • Andre 20.2


      edit: yep all good. I’m using Chrome.

    • The Chairman 20.3

      Cheers lprent. It’s all working good for me, thanks.

    • Graeme 20.4

      Pre-populated fields are working on Safari, and the Replies tab is back but not quite behaving as it should.

      The replies show, but with a seperate scroll box of 9 current comments above them, and wiht the Comments tab live rather than the Replies tab.

      As an aside, has the absence of the replies tab changed behaviour on the site? While it’s been a pain following conversations, there seems to have been a reduction in the disruptive trolling.

      • Graeme 20.4.1

        The Replies tab looks to be back to it’s normal behaviour now.

        You do a marvellous job here Lprent, our world is a better place for your effort

        • lprent

          Only when I have time. I am still puzzled how the cookie system got munted at all. Or more correctly I am trying to puzzle out where I enabled it in the first place.

          I looked at backups from well prior to my return from Singapore (ie before shifting the site to a new server), and couldn’t see the code to set the cookies for the fields on the return to the client.

      • lprent 20.4.2

        I will have a look at the replies box. That is usually the result of either CSS caching (try a hard refresh – usually Shift+F5 or Alt+F5 from memory) or something on the comments blocking the javascript fully rendering the tabs.

        Trolls: Personally they tend to hibernate in the middle of winter. It seems initially seem unusual, because the Pratchett theory would indicate that their intelligence should rise as it gets cooler. However I suspect that the shock of having those strange things called thoughts means that they are in shock over winter. But after the weather warms, then they tend to revert to the stupid arseholes that we all love to detest.

        On a more serious not, the variation between winter and summer is usually about 25% of page views and comments overall.

  20. Timeforacupoftea 21

    Safari – w perfect

  21. patricia bremner 22

    Yes perfect. Well done.

  22. dV 24


    Fields stay populated

  23. gsays 25

    Thanks Lprent, muchos gracias.
    Not that I’m wiser n Spanish than Latin.
    Kitchen French is my forte.

  24. Pat 26

    “The issue is how quickly we do it and at what scale. At a global level, we need to invest on the order of 1.5 to 2 percent of GDP per year in raising energy efficiency standards and expanding the supply of renewables in order to have a good chance at driving global emissions down by 80 percent within 20 years and eliminating emissions altogether within 30 years.”


    In NZs case that equates to around NZ$5 billion pa

    • corodale 26.1

      If the Green’s new bank has enough money to build electic cars, then contact his guy Hannemann from Colibri Energy, and do a deal on the batteries.

      They had shown in 2010 already the ability for e-cars to do 600kms on a single charge. But German car makers are all taking the piss, only offering contracts which would take all rights to the battery tech.

      Interesting to note that google-et-al will label this link as right-wing-extremist, as they are peace activists regarding a free Palestine, and less military spending, etc.

      Sorry, interview with this battery-tech-dude is in German

  25. Macro 27


    Radge – “anyone that has gone beyond the bounds of regular behaviour, generally because they are crazy.”
    Bampot – “stupid or crazy person”

  26. eco maori 28

    Good morning The Am Show looks like uses are enjoining the best part of a journey is getting back home.
    Congradulations to France winning the Russian held FootBall World Cup.
    The Papatuanuku statue Bastian point I say is a good thing there could be a plark of the story and we need to teach everyone to respect Papatuanuku especial the mokopunas .
    The sandflys have been swarming since I made my comments about the assistant commissioner I wonder why.
    Ka kite ano

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