"Last night, about a crowd of 160 people attended an AAG meeting in Gore.
The audience listened to topics including why there is no evidence there is a climate emergency and three pieces of legislation of concern to farmers.
Retired science teacher Peter Foster, of Waikouaiti, and AAG co- founders Ms Pennycock and Robert Wilson addressed the crowd.
Mr Wilson said he always encouraged people to do their own research to find out if what the group shared was true.
‘‘Don’t take everything we say as gospel.’’
"Pretty early on there were some wild conspiracy theories being peddled, regarding the United Nations’ Agenda 21, and that organisation’s leading of a shadowy global cabal dictating to our Government.
"Having worked within government, frankly, that’s nonsense, but because there’s an underlying tension founded on legitimate policy concerns currently, it could be persuasive for some, which is unhelpful."
He said a young farmer attempting to voice his concerns about the direction of the meeting was shouted down by other audience members.
"When you get people stirred up enough, it’s easy to incite them to civil disobedience.”"
Canterbury farmers inparticular have already shown they have a Pinochet like relationship with democracy is it threatens their water rights. Basically, they'll threaten resorting to violence if the government actually gets serious about dirty dairying / water pollution and allocation of water.
This action is merely a front for a group of latifundia corporate farmers who are preparing to fight to the death to protect their ability to help themselves to scarce public water and pollute waterways at will.
latifundia – a large landed estate or ranch in ancient Rome or more recently in Spain or Latin America, typically worked by peasants or slaves.
Interesting word Sanctuary. And it is my view that is the direction we are going in here in all of NZ. We aren't a British colony any more but various governments are racing towards making us a Global-Wealth one.
Your summation of the 'rentier' farming situation is probably correct, and the rural rent-a-crowd that turn up to such meetings find fat pockets and promises of more, a valuable prompt to action.
"Pretty early on there were some wild conspiracy theories being peddled, regarding the United Nations' Agenda 21, and that organisation's leading of a shadowy global cabal dictating to our Government".
Oh that one is widespread. They are conflating neo-liberal dogma (which they would have voted for) and global market cooperation. I suspect they imagine there's a huge cave somewhere with lots of sinister little green men plotting to bring down the world and rebuild it again in their own evil image.
I also love the way they project their behaviour of falsehoods, manipulation and deceit onto the shoulders of the internationally renowned experts supported by their respective governments and the United Nations.
NB. I can't cut and paste quotes anymore. Typed it in long hand.
There's also the socially toxic notion of Sovereign Citizenry. But I am finding it hard to quote on Mobile today myself – something to do with recent updates?
This at the end from the AAG cofounder seems worth typing though:
Sadly this talk of conspiracy theories and other ideas does not surprise me.
I spent a month visiting friends and family in the farming community in Southland earlier in the year. After finding we were not able to talk about the March 15th tragedy ( 'PM had no right wearing the hijab scarf' and 'gun legislation over reaction') or the Covid pandemic ('PM called the lock down too late', 'unfair to call the Bluff cluster the Bluff wedding cluster as most did not live in Bluff and anyway the virus was caught at the after match function in Invercargill the next day')
…I then mentioned how I was doing my bit by completing the MOH flutracker each week and the reports that came out were always interesting
Stony silence with the distinct impression that govt depts wanting anonymised information on whether you had a sore throat, or a sniffle, cough or runny nose so they could track this through the community was beyond the pale. Big Govt at its worst…..
This is a community where the Nats held out against the prevailing swing to Labour, where there are still instances of what I call cruelty to animals with cattle forced to calve, yet again, in bogs and knee deep mud
Where I saw instances of tradies advertising on their websites, presumably as a selling point, that they support guns by saying the staff go hunting etc.
Hunters sure, each to our own hobbies, but as a selling point and either oblivious or uncaring as to the effect on possible clients who did not support this type of life?
This is anecdotal sure but it shocked me to the core…….
Society is just moving on. Younger generations are very comfortable with diverse genders, and are being brought up in age of increasing social awareness.
Gen Z is leading the way.
We also recognise that old arguments have caused real hurt to vulnerable minority groups. From a place of privilege, these people can argue that minorities should be afforded fewer rights. They wrongly suggest indigenous or trans identities are not valid.
Of course, as you well know, Nic, rugby is also a kind of football. The very creation of the word "soccer" in nineteenth century England is confirmation of that fact: it was necessary to distinguish Association Football from Rugby Football.
?? When did rugby football (or rugby union football if you want to be super-precise) stop being football? Has it suddenly changed into hockey? Do they play with a puck instead of a football now?
tee hee, but actually gender critical women say yes we have nothing against "rugby" we just don't want them rugby players bringing their balls on to our playing fields or in our change rooms!
….gender critical women say yes we have nothing against "rugby" we just don't want them rugby players bringing their balls on to our playing fields or in our change rooms!
And here was me thinking the whole 'shape of the balls' analogy was out of place in this discussion!
The only controversial thing in that thread is the use of Soccer ahead of Football. You will be language policed in some contexts for that (I have been as a masters player and coach before) but since postdad doesn't fit in Football this comedic opportunity fell wanting on their lack of knowledge.
Most people in this country, and in Australia and the United States use the clear and uncontroversial term "soccer" for the association game. "Football" usually means rugby football in this country, Australian Rules football across the ditch, and in America it is (ridiculously) that game played on a gridiron where hardly anything happens and hardly anyone is allowed to touch the ball, let alone kick it.
What's that saying about sarcasm being the lowest form of wit? Okay, I'll accept low grade satire and I accept it's from someone who's on a high from being dealt a get-out-of-misogyny-jail-free card to add to his already trump-filled hand courtesy of being a white, young, able-bodied, educated, socially & geographically mobile bloke. After all, it's not just okay to attack TERFs – it's positively de rigeur for those on Neo-liberalism's left wing. Get your progressive credentials upgraded by giving an easy target a kicking- what's not to like?
thanks for letting us know you don't understand what the GCF politics are. Not to worry, there are many the same including postdad.
One of the best things I've been reading is Kathleen Stock's Material Girls. She's a philosopher at University of Sussex and is at the forefront of the GCF movement in the UK. The starting premise for the book is that we have to understand each other's position in the best possible interpretation if we want to debate in good faith. The first part of the book is outlining the GA (gender activist) positions as she understands them as made by GAs.
This is in stark contrast to the bullshit on all sides where people run arguments about their opposition when they don't even know what the opposition believes (Standardistas will be familiar with my short patience for people who make up shit about what other people think, it makes it impossible to debate when that happens). If you want to know what SUFW believe, talk to them. You don't have to agree but you will at least understand then what is being talked about.
Which isn't to say don't quote postdad. But when the GA side is consistently misrepresenting the politics of GCFs, that's going to cause problems for discussion.
You don't get to control what dominates on the Standard Sascha [sic].
Seems to me that you may have misread Sacha’s comment, which appeared to be more of a desperate expression of opinion and perhaps even exasperation, not an attempt to take control. This is just my observation, of course.
i thought you might find this an interesting read and perspective. (i am pretty sick with the kiddies flu, and am not going to hang around, thus my 'reply').
I was thinking of posting that article but didn't because I thought it would raise the temperature too much.
Glenn McConnell is very young. More activist reporter than respected journalist at this stage. I find while his premise is usually sound and is firmly grounded in the new generation, his language when getting those ideas across is a bit loose and sometimes needlessly overdramatic. He'll get better.
This one is pretty brutal but it's important because he does speak to the trans community who are without political (?) funding like SUFW are:
But when you speak to transgender Kiwis about Speak Up For Women, you hear stories of fear and hurt.
They point out that Speak Up For Women is unusually invested in how transgender people live their lives. The group has lobbied against gender-affirming medicine for transgender teenagers, calling it “experimentation on children”.
In other submissions and posts, the group has suggested transgender people were pushed into it by families who thought it “easier” to be trans rather than gay. That’s clearly nonsense, and such claims only act to attack the mana of transgender people.
I agree with the basic premise that conservative groups are highjacking race for relevance, see Don Brash, David Seymour, Judith Collins, etc.
It's not so clear cut with SUFW. However the same is true that right wing politics has highjacked gender issues, SUFW now heavily involved at the highest level in NZ with Ani O'Brien now working for Judith Collins.
I am going to stick to the issues here. I think you are saying Muttonbird that SUFW receive govt funding? If so that is untrue. You have made a lot of assertions about SUFW which are untrue. Including that they are religious conservatives. If you go to their website and click on about us, or some such tab you will see that many of its members have very long histories of social activism, particularly for feminist issues.
You are saying that people say that SUFW have lobied against gender affirming medicines for children. That is true. The evidence for puberty blockers is unconvincing, and NICE (National Institue of Clinical Evidence) in their meta analysis of their efficacy say that there is no evidence they help with mental health problems, body image or gender dysphora. I have posted the link on here before. Happy to find it and post it again. They also recommend that if these drugs are prescribed that the be done so as part of a well conducted research trial with the need for high levels of consent by participants. I feel very concerned that kids at 16 years old are been given full masectomies and then hysterectomies at 18 years old. What about you? Are you o.k. with that? And cross sex hormones? The young person of 23 in the Listener article who is a biological women now has a male voice and an adams apple and really regrets her decision to transition. It unclear how effective de-transitioning will be. How do you feel about this. Is this o.k. with you? Breast binding in young women, causing breathing difficulties.
Because one thing I notice in these debates is I rarely get a response to these sorts of questions from people who oppose the SUFW arguements.
The sciene of trans women in sports is well established. I have already posted on here a radio nz article about Ross Tucker, a sports scienctist, who did a report for International Rugby. Happy to post the link again. While hugely apologetic to the trans community, he said the reality was biological women face a 30% increase in injury from tackling if trans women play. He also outlined in what way males have signicant advantages over women in sports. The 10,000 fastest male runners can beat the fastest women. Do you see this as an issue? Do you see why we might want to keep women's sport for women as set out in the Human Rights Act?
The issue of change rooms and public toilets. Let me be very clear here. In the Human Rights Act of 1993 it specifies that women have separate facilities for public safety and decency. I don't want to share these facilities with males who identify as women and haven't transistioned. SUFW are already hearing reports of this happening in NZ and women being put off going to places like gyms etc because of it. Personally as I have already revealed on this website I was the victim of an attack in a public change room, so I have an extra sensitivity here. If I were to see a biological male in a change room, it would potentially trigger quite a reaction for me.
I object to the changes of language being forced upon us. A person on the Daily Blog yesterday posted that someone has made a serious complaint at their workplace because they refused to use pro nouns or state whether they believe trans women are real women. This imposition on an ideology/belief system of people particularly in a workplace really concerns me. Up till recently no one has put me in a position where I have to concur with their belief system or face consequences. The NZ I know allows for people to agree to disagree. I want to keep it this way.
I also reject what I see as the de=humanizing de-construction of women in the change of language such as chest feeders, people who menustrate, birthing units.
And Sacha re your recent comment that you are going to give up giving up on explaining the language 101 (I am sorry that is not a direct quote,). I am pleased about that. Your attempts to correct my language were unsolicted and I am happy to leave it to the moderators on this site to pull me up if they think my words or comments are offensive.
So you are welcome to put up humour. It is a little provocative, but gee I can take it. I rather stick to the issues around here, which I have always attempted to do.
But of course happy to put gender critical humour up if that's going to be how the issues get debated from your side.
I am not interested in turning this nonsense into a conversation. Does not warrant it. The tiny number of activists obsessed with other people's genitals can carry on howling into the wind.
Sacha, I’ll catch up later on the thread but briefly I’ve seen a couple of your comments that are catching my moderator eye. This is not usual with you so rather than us going down that track can I respectfully suggest taking a step back for a while?
I think you are saying Muttonbird that SUFW receive govt funding?
I did not say that. I expect they receive funding from a number of sources. I suspect funding is increasing from wealthy right wing actors who are willing to highjack GC activism and use it as a weapon with which to attack the government.
You have made a lot of assertions about SUFW which are untrue. Including that they are religious conservatives.
Didn't say that either, although there is a similarity between GC theory’s absolutism and Christian fundamentalist absolutism on relationship matters.
Because one thing I notice in these debates is I rarely get a response to these sorts of questions from people who oppose the SUFW arguements.
I haven't gotten into discussion about hormone therapy and surgery because I'm not qualified. I haven't gotten into discussion about transgenders in sport because I acknowledge it's a work in progress. And I haven't gotten into discussion about toilets because it's not my place.
All of these things I don't respond to because to do so would be another case of a man 'inserting themselves' into places they are not welcome.
My comment @ 3.2 was about the strange marriage of convenience between SUFW and the National Party, and a little bit about what some young kids have to go through when adults argue over the top of them.
All good Muttonbird. Thanks clarifying. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said.
yes labour and the Greens will lose support to the right. They have lost my support. Mainly because they have tried in introduce these changes eg gender self I’d by stealth. And when women have written to the minister of women, she has ignored their letters and not listened to their concerns.
Mainly because they have tried in introduce these changes eg gender self I’d by stealth
Discussions about amending the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Act have been underway since early 2015. In late 2018 SUFW arrived at the party.
The changes to gender self ID were added well after 2015. In fact they were added at select committee after the public submissions were closed. Crown Law thus advised Tracey Martin that the process was undemocratic and she moth balled the bill for this and other reasons.
Labour did not campaign on this issue. It was under their Rainbow policies.
As a party member, I was never asked about it, although they frequently sent out surveys of what issues were important to us.
The Minister of Internal Affairs, Hon Tracey Martin deferred the Bill after advice from Crown Law highlighted issues with clauses inserted by the Select Committee after public consultation had closed. These clauses would allow individuals to change the sex on their birth certificate via an administrative process based on self-identification. This is a substantial change from the current Family Court process that requires evidence of medical treatment.
An acquaintance of mine and their teen attended their first Trans support group meeting.
The meeting was disrupted then abandoned because of protest action.
This causes a lot of distress especially for my acquaintance as she has been at the forefront of a lot of feminist political action. Doubly so as there were a lot of familiar faces amongst the protestors.
To confront vulnerable people seeking support doesn't sit right with me and I favour direct action.
From memory, the teen got upset and didn't feel safe. There was hollering and chanting.
I am not certain whether the disruption occurred outside the meeting or if they came inside.
The bigger picture is a bit sad. From a crusty, distant lens looking in, I feel the teen's state of being is more about wanting some attention or love, less about gender dysphoria. I can only hope the underlying issues within the teen can be resolved in a less stressful, non-interventionist way
If you want to understand the overmedicalisation of GNC children more fully, start listening to detrans women, especially the lesbians. Anyone denying there are issues with this is ignorant.
Trans communities get funding from a range of sources. Look up the funding for orgs like Stonewall and Mermaids in the UK.
I know the people who started SUFW and most are leftwing feminists – a large number are lesbian. Ani O started out as what I’d call centre-left and it’s true she’s moved rightward. But she wouldn’t be the first person to find her commitment to left-wing politics wasn’t strong enough to withstand the hysterical abuse she received on social media when she first expressed a gender critical viewpoint, or the far worse abuse she received when she stepped up to act as the group’s spokeswoman. I disagree trenchantly with Ani on many levels but she has been abused and demonised in ways and to degrees that are so disproportionate, anyone with an analytical brain linked to their political conscience should ask why that is.
If you persistently misrepresent a person or a group – by use of hyperbolic rhetoric through to brazen lies – as being extremist rightwing; if all that comes out of so-called progressives on social media, and increasingly out of mainstream media, is the hyperbolic claim that SUFW are literal Nazis who want to deny the very existence of trans people – why would you be surprised when vulnerable young trans people say they are terrified of them?
If you demonise, and deny a group of women the right to speak, why would you be surprised if that group falls into the waiting arms of the ever-opportunistic right?
The only surprise here is how stupid the Nats seem to be in not realising the massive potential this has for fomenting divisions in the broad coalition of interests currently supporting the LP. Maybe they're keeping their powder dry.
When the euphoria of having been dealt a get-out-of-misogyny-gaol-free card has subsided a bit, maybe ask, who benefits from all this?
Ok, so that's confirmation that GC theory and Conservative Politics are linked ideologies.
Well, that's an extraordinary logistical leap you've made there. Are you illustrating my point that critics of GCF are more interested in hyperbolic rhetoric than in honest political discussion? Apologies if I have completely missed the point you are making.
I don't think you have missed the point I am making.
It's clear to me GCF ideology is very similar to Conservative Politics. They share absolutism on gender issues. The proof in New Zealand is that Ani O'Brien now works in the office of Judith Collins. That is no accident.
You say it's because Labour drove her away with their liberal politics. I say there is a symbiotic relationship now between the National Party and SUFW. O'Brien realises in joining the National Party she can promote her single issue cause, and the National Party realises they can use GCF issues to attack the government.
And what are they both actually attacking the government over?
Are you saying that the National Party wants to abolish gender so that humans are free to live whatever gender expression they want? That National believe that women are oppressed on the basis of biological sex and that women's reproductive and other labour is appropriated by patriarchal societies to the detriment of women and the solution is to end both gender roles and patriarchal systems? Because I think you might want to run that past Judith to check and then do some reading on what GCF actually is.
In the meantime, try referring to Ani as GC when in reference to National, then you will make more sense.
Muttonbird would you consider reading my post at 3.2.2? That's what I am concerned about and it seems a few of the people on this thread agree. These are the issues or some of them, that has got many of us involved in this debate.
Again, my understanding is there are some people in SUFW who voted National, but more are on the left.
I have never suggested that trans or ethnic identies aren’t valid Sacha. I don't think gender critical feminists are suggesting trans have fewer rights than others. I think they should have the same rights as others, but not more. By that I mean that their gender identity shouldn't trump my rights as a biological women
Why is "sex" a required field on a Birth Certificate?
What does it actually denote?
When/If the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill is passed and a person can have the "sex" field changed, is this a once only opportunity or can a person, at a later date, change their sex again?
More that the sex a baby is assigned at birth (usually without chromosomal testing – on the basis of visible genetalia, which doesn't really work for intersex or gender diverse), provides a framework within which that child will be socialized. Their identity develops over time in response to the interaction of their genes with their social and physical environment.
If anything is personal information, it is your genetic profile, and other medical details. Why anyone else other than your doctor feels entitled to access to that information is beyond me. The move to change sex on birth certificate wouldn't be such a big thing if it wasn't needed to prove your existence so much.
I agree that the issue here is how sex is used by society to classify people. But knowing what the sex is is important and in nearly all humans this is observable before or at birth. This is not about gender identity. That's an issue that arises next.
GCFs argue that kids should be allowed to grow up free from gender norm constraints. As far as I can tell, GAs (gender activists) want to dictate the conditions under which gender is used by society, rather than freeing people from the constraints.
Sex is important, and informs medical choices. But it is also intensely personal. Arguably useful as a variable in medical research, but there would be ethical considerations and anonymisation of results in that.
The Gender Critical (some of whom are not remotely feminist) do not seem so very critical of gender to me, Weka. But then, they are unlikely to be much more of a single unified mindset than the trans community and its halfhearted allies.
However, this is Aotearoa, not (as one might think by a cursory glance at our current head of state); England. That's literally on the other side of the world! Many colonialists attitudes about the proper way of being human are still bubbling through NZ. Takatapui were an accepted part of Maori culture (as fa'afafine and leitis are for Samoan and Tongan), but long decades (/centuries) of whitewashing NZ through religious indoctrination and other forms of cultural cleansing have left them in an endangered position. I am glad Kerekere is there to represent us in parliament.
In any case, ethnic groups' customary practices are already protected in the HRA. Even if GC groups may find it easy to recycle lines from Conservative-ruled Britain, it is unclear why pakeha trans people (importantly, not just trans women) should be left unprotected against such sophistry.
But at least the GC do have a thicker veneer of civility than some trans averse people. Though I still don't like the war metaphors – they seem to foster a bunker mentality.
Not all who are Gender Critical are female, let alone feminists. (some) Evangelical Christian pastors may be fully as absolutist in regarding sex as a necessary precursor to gender (if they adknowledge the distinction at all).
Like say the Superstraights (I won't link as they were too toxic even for reddit!) who had a similar kind of; transphobia with extra steps. The whole; "are traps gay?" sewer. At least GCFs are less rapey.
Don’t know where you get your ideas from about GCFs and GC people, but the left wing GCFs I know support gender non conformity and thus have no problem with historical cultural acceptance of GNC people. The large number of lesbian and gay GC people likewise are unlikely to have a problem with takatapui.
you appear to be arguing with something in your own thinking rather than what I am saying.
So if the medical professionals with hold their expertise, I wonder (not really) if the parents will be able to work the infants sex out and begin what socialisation they think is appropriate and natural anyway.
That detail on a birth certificate is about identity….
So a mewling, puking bairn emerges with it's gender identity fully formed?
With respect, Sacha…rubbish. "Sex" on a baby's birth certificate indicates biological sex…basically… that upon observation by a suitably trained person the infant's genitals indicate male or female. Correct in about 98% of instances.
…not about reproduction.
Of course not, silly! It's a newborn baby! So wrong to even think about the future sex -life of this child.
And only an arrogant fool would speculate as to how this child might express itself genderwise in the future.
although lets not forget that girl babies are born with the ova that will become the later generation if she has a baby 😉 And it's sex as well as gender that will largely determine how she is treated in society as she grows up.
Official identity documents are talking about observable social presentation – ie: gender. They have just been stupid enough to use 'male' and 'female' to describe it. But fill your boots if that's all you have to campaign on.
Oh dear, it seems the entire medical profession is doing it wrong because they keep recording the infants sex on their birth certificate. No doubt you have an improved procedure for them to use instead, which you will now be able to explain to us?
Your the one claiming that birth certificates contain irrelevant information, which everyone should subsequently ignore (along with all the other markers of gender, e.g infants assigned name and biology). That puts the onus on you to explain how thats supposed to work.
Just thinking out loud. What if self-ID on birth certificates and other documentation was an edited feature. That is sex at birth was still recorded, but also the change according to the individual.
In no particular order:
No idea whether this satisfies GCF concerns about self-ID. But I suspect they’re ok with it.
No idea whether the trans community or individuals would be happy either. But I suspect they are not ok with it.
I'm a long time reader, first time commenter. It's absolutely astounding how left-wing men seem to have taken up the mantel in denying the ability of women to self identify as a class with protected characteristics. Nothing like reading Sacha patronisingly explaining to women how their views are invalid.
Prioritising gender over sex enables men to again dictate to women what rights they should have, and if they don't like it, they're the bigot. This is the compounded by the bizarreo claim that is in fact gender critical feminists who are the ones oppressing trans individuals. If anyone hadn't noticed, it's not as if the corporations, government (local and central) are supporting the right to protected sex characteristics, rather than the trans lobby. You only need to look at the co-opting of Stonewall in the UK and the attempts to silence gender-critical feminists to understand that they are the are in fact the ones that are being marginalised.
I largely agree with this, but there is no doubt that many trans people are having a hard time in society due to transphobia (individual and systemic). It's possible to uphold the wellbeing and rights of both groups.
I feel like the person who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes, and all the people who had been admiring his new clothes were embarrassed about being taken in by the hype surrounding the emperor's outfits. A man in a dress is a man and will always be regardless of his (claimed) right to access women spaces, and what it says on his birth certificate. They must create their own spaces then they will be respected.
It’s a GC fail imo to reduce trans women to man in dress. It presumes that trans is one thing instead of a range of experiences. Obviously a TW wearing trousers is still a TW. Feminists can’t have it both ways, either we say presentation via gender norm clothing doesn’t matter or it does.
and if we insist on making charicatures out of TW we can hardly complain about being written off as terfs.
none of what I just said negates women’s rights to women’s space and politics.
I don't know how this works in but I respect James Morris wish to change to woman Jan Morris from fully functioning man. He took the hormones, had the op, went through the whole thing after a lot of genuine thought, and was one of the early changers.
Also Eddie Izzard has had a varied life as a comedian, being himself and dressing up as a 'stage' woman, with high heels, lots of makeup etc. Now in his maturity he wishes to stay in his woman role. I don't know if he has had the op, or taken the hormones. (Incidentally Jan found them rather tiresome.)
But since homosexuality became legal, the troubled minds of sex obsessed young people, stirred and shaken by first television, and films, and then the internet and social media, it has become a bizarre fashion, not a considered adult decision. I have heard some alarming things here, and met feminists who would have been on the lesbian side in the 1970s, often falling out with the heterosexual ones, often married. Then the guiding idea was to get equality of treatment, respect and wages and women then have noticed how successful they have been in much of this, wages still down. But then feminists were for strength, standing tall, going forward. Now the theme seems victimisation, and making a case for unfairness, coming from a sad, negative position rather than positive but with still a way to go, on both sides too.
You know I don't agree with hyperbolic rhetoric or abuse on either side or on any issue – but as someone who's been engaged with socialist feminism for over half a century and the transgender debate since the early 1990s, and having watched the on-line debate go from a gentle simmer to an insane boil since 2015, I can say the abuse and the hyperbole did not start with feminists (although Raymond's polemic served to raise the political temperature several degrees). I have no doubt that hiding among the pseudonymous accounts on social media are parties who, for predatory or vexatious personal reasons, or political ones, are interested in turning the heat up even further. People who contribute to that can hardly claim genuinely to have women's or trans peoples interests at heart. It's just too easy for the blokes who have inserted themselves into this – to point to the extremes of the GC movement and use that to label and demonise the whole of it. If they don't engage with the fact that there are a host of life long socialists and feminists who question facets of the current transgender orthodoxy – but instead choose to tar all with the same brush – that's being ethically and politically lazy. Or worse, it's evidence of an unresolved resentment of women – oh, but perish the thought that such a thing could be the case here.
One of the things occupying my thoughts today is just how many GAs really have no idea of what women are saying, of what is about to play out, or of how much this is tediously familiar for feminists. The more women understand that progressive men are literally positioning themselves against our interests the more solidarity we will experience with each other. Immensely grateful to the UK feminists who built the template for this.
A friend of mine was ruminating the other day upon the fact that one of her girlfriends had a dick, while the other was considering getting one and becoming a boyfriend. I listened to her for quite some time over a cuppa.
Conflating "no idea of what you are saying" with "no idea of what women are saying" is a conceit. Disagreeing with you does not mean disagreeing with all, or even a majority, of women (in the most gender-critical interpretation of the word, of course).
that you decided as a politicised left wing man to #notallwomen me, even though it’s easy enough to parse from my comment that I was talking about gc women, instead of asking me what you might be missing, is exactly what I have been talking about. Men’s support of feminists is conditional, it’s not solidarity.
you’ve known me long enough to know I’m good with disagreement. What I’m not enjoying here is the massive gap in understanding. Seeing a left wing man reduce feminist perspectives here to an obsession with genitals suggests one if two things. That he doesn’t understand the politics he wants to argue against, or that he doesn’t give a shit and is happy to both misrepresent and marginalise. I was doing men here a courtesy that it was ignorance rather than sexism.
most of what I’ve seen from left wing men on Twitter in recent days is ignorance but am willing now to consider it wilful.
have a read of what I wrote about Stock’s book and good faith debate. Being able to disagree is dependent upon understanding the best interpretation of the oppositions politics.
No, when you repeatedly use clear language that apparently then needs to be "parsed" to pretend you're not othering everyone who disagrees with you (other women and the men who can apparently understand their position more than your position), that definitely needs explicit clarification.
Many left wing men are listening to women. Just not so much to the women who will apparently have Sean Plunket as a guest speaker.
Obviously you are listening to some women, you're not in a monastery. But if you want to understand GCF, then imo you need to listen to and talk with GCFs, not liberal feminists. Liberal feminists are not good at explaining GCF. I see the arguments that many lw men are making against GCF and it's not disagreement, it's idiocy. If you make the effort to understand your opponent's position and then disagree, I will respect that.
Or, just keep listening to liberal feminists, and not understanding GCF, and watch the same shit fight war that is happening in the UK happen in NZ.
Yeh that's the thing, the feminists that i actually know are all staunch supporters of trans rights. Then i come on here and weka tells me that i am not listening to feminists and proceeds to tell me what feminists think. Support for anybody in politics is conditional on the quality of their ideas and the potential harm of those ideas.
Seemed pretty damned clear to me. How was I supposed to know what you wrote needed to be parsed through some filter to qualify what groups were actually being discussed.
Anyhoo, I'm still at work (and pissed off about it), and we seem to have reached the point of the script where we both accuse the other of not properly reading what we wrote and that we've been horribly misrepresented and how sad it is that the other won't take the time to listen to a position we've heard dozens of times before, so I'm going to take a break for at least an hour or two, maybe the day.
the irony there is that the Greens very effectively shut down women talking about gender critical politics, so fat chance of getting to say anything to her.
Yeh that's the thing, the feminists that i actually know are all staunch supporters of trans rights. Then i come on here and weka tells me that i am not listening to feminists and proceeds to tell me what feminists think. Support for anybody in politics is conditional on the quality of their ideas and the potential harm of those ideas.
Ok, solkta, summarise for me in five bullet points what the gender critical feminist position is.
I'm not going to play your games weka, we have been round this too many times. The point is that you often say what women think and what feminists think when you are presenting just the views of some.
No Logie is not a liberal. That is another of your games, radicals think like you, liberals think like them. There was a really bigoted rant in the Green's mag that got canned. It was a shame that the editors did not pick it up and require it be re-written. Have you tried to talk with Jan?
Like Sacha and McFlock i've had enough of the BS and will be taking a break.
Sean Plunket, Not a guest speaker. Just attending the meeting McFlock.
My mistake. Mind you, if I were in wellington tonight I still would have preferred being in the crowd outside, rather than inside with the likes of him and apparently Jordan Williams.
@solkta, I was referring to GP members trying to talk about gender critical issues internally, although the removal of the article in the newletter was also problematic.
Yes Logie is a liberal, as am I. It's not all we are, but it's part of the picture.
If a woman who isn't a radfem or GCF has some beliefs aligned with GCF thinking eg around self ID, what am I supposed to call her other than 'woman'? Woman is a useful collective noun for referring to shared experience, it doesn't mean every woman is included. It's a given that there are lots of women who disagree with the GCF positions.
Likewise with the word feminist.
The thing about this debate is that the women who disagree with the GCF position aren't talking about feminism or women, they're generally talking about trans people and denying that there are any issues for women. I refer to them as GAs (formerly TAs). It's not that they're not feminist, it's that they're not actually advocating for women in that instance.
I haven't told you you're not listening to feminists, I've said there are left wing men arguing against the GCF position and don't appear to understand what it is. I suggested to McFlock that listening to liberal feminists wouldn't help with that. If you have a link to Logie explaining clearly what the GCF position is, I would actually like to see that (I like and respect her despite our differences on this issue), but it's still not my point. GAs misrepresent GCF positions, sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes as part of the war.
A friend of mine was ruminating the other day upon the fact that one of her girlfriends had a dick, while the other was considering getting one and becoming a boyfriend. I listened to her for quite some time over a cuppa
That could be a recruitment campaign for choice feminism.
I have no doubt that hiding among the pseudonymous accounts on social media are parties who, for predatory or vexatious personal reasons, or political ones, are interested in turning the heat up even further.
How ironic then that the one commenter who pulled out of the discussion is the only one AFAIK who has not been hiding behind a pseudonym. We even have a name for this kind of hypocrisy on this site (see https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/#banning). Make of that what you will.
Weka 5.2 – this is in the first instance based on biology and the survival factor that accompanies the separation of genders. We are talking about the human brain development over thousand of years, facilitating the development of social groupings which in turn allowed the human race to develop to where we are today. Instinct should tell us what the successful continuation should look like.
Nothing like reading Sacha patronisingly explaining to women how their views are invalid.
Oh I've tried providing links to women writing about the philosophical basis of this without interpreting it myself, but the people speaking here have been too lazy or ignorant to read it and decide for themselves. Hoping more of you who do not normally comment have been.
I agree Rachel Stewart is amping this up in a way that is unhelpful – ably assisted by those who oppose her – and I'm not going to give her a pass just because she's been in receipt of a mass of hateful abuse in the past. These are issues, the political dissection of which require a scalpel wielded by a steady hand and guided by a cool head – not people wielding barbed wire or glass encrusted baseball bats, or waving metaphorical shotguns. People on the left loved Stewart when she was using that trade mark heavy-handed wit to beat farmers about the head, now they loathe her. Politics is a fickle beast but it's an odd thing when two of the NZ white left's most reviled people are lesbians. We do live in strange times.
…but it's an odd thing when two of the NZ white left's most reviled people are lesbians.
This hasn't gone unnoticed. When recognized within the context of the history of women dragging themselves out from under the oppression by men, not at all odd.
I’m watching the social dilemma currently and more and more thinking this will only resolve if we also take the debate off sm and into the physical world.
Yes, very easy to hammer something out on the internet that you wouldn't dare say to someones face, twitter facebook etc have allowed various groups of like minded people to form who are forever egging each other on and further entrenching there positions. Social media is dehumanizing people in many respects.
Your comment is spot on about coming off SM and the engagement needed in the real world.
A couple of the links featuring Posie Parker that Joe 90 posted made for unpleasant reading/watching. The motivation seemed to be more about extreme passion, dare I say, hate.
I mean, slater and the crop of fascist-wannabees are pretty reviled, Talley, Juco and most of the rest of the nat caucus… still seems like largely a sausage-fest to me.
I agree. The more people read on the issues, the more they are persuaded by the gender critical argument. That's why gender identity activists try to shut down all conversation- their ideology just doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
FWIW, in contrast to a few other commenters here, I firmly believe that for some time now Sacha has been trying hard to engage in good faith and have a genuine but robust debate on this topic and Sacha’s comment history supports this notion, IMO. You seem to confuse criticism and disagreement with antagonism and I’d have thought you would know better.
I note that you refused to engage with Sacha’s point on the comparison with “the official transition from Race to Ethnicity”, i.e. you’re avoiding genuine debate, which is your prerogative but also ironic because usually you’re a strong advocate of intellectual rational debate.
Anyhow, Sacha will no longer discuss the topic, which may be good for some but does not bode well for the debating culture here on The Standard, as I consider Sacha one of the better commenters here and of high integrity.
I'm not debating about the matter of being able to assign one's chosen gender at will on a birth certificate and legally assume that gender, because it isn't open for debate in my view.
and SUFW (Stand Up for Women) is not a TERF organisation I am told. And TERF means – trans-exclusionary radical feminist – for those who have been thinking about the ongoing political problems that are so boringly ongoing, poverty, child illness, lack of health care, lack of this and that which are needed and could be expected in this modern age.
It's almost like these people volunteered to contract covid.
/
The county's medical services director, Dr. Christina Ghaly, told the Board of Supervisors Tuesday that none of the county-operated hospitals have admitted a single COVID-19 patient who was fully vaccinated.
"Every single patient that we've admitted for COVID has been not yet fully vaccinated, and that's hard for the health-care workers to see,'' Ghaly said. "They've spent hours, effort, energy trying to care for patients, and at this point this really is a preventable illness, a preventable infection.''
only women (with demonstrable capability to have children) can be handmaid’s for infertile couples – vote GOP.
the children of pregnant single women belong to an infertile married couple (one born male and one born female) – vote GOP
only those who need to pay for their contraception to avoid pregnancy are allowed in female places (we are not keen on females who do not want sex with men in our female places) – vote GOP
This sex stuff is actually an attack on humanity and goes beyond correcting imbalances that have long existed between men and women. It combines so many doubts and uncertainties and losses through tech and piratical adventuring including wars, it has gone OTT.
Calm down, don't be captured by the hysterical and historical, and rely less on laws which are gradually becoming swingeing, and instead, getting to know about each other's cultures as a regular classroom period at school, for the first step. Teach about philosophy rather than religion, teach about self-image and personal capability and self-respect. Don't leave it to parents to pass on their half-masticated tasteless titbits that lodge and grow in children's brains until virtually embedded.
Address the needs of people being impacted by others in society, which would include both the angry, abusive and instigators and those affected by those behaviours.
But lazy governments who talk democracy, fairness and equality, and don't even try for equity, are satisfied with a public stirred up that can be manipulated by a word or sentence, while other important matters are ignored. And then criminalise the perp or drop heavy financial costs on them, usually poor people. And that shows that government is concerned about it! They don't want to stop thinking with their bottoms and as they remain firmly fixed in their comfy chairs, no light or air ever falls on what passes for their thoughts.
To take a step away from our ravaged human culture, here is a comedy that might let people switch off the Outrage Button for a while. A six-part series with laughs about five women, including four Muslim, all non-white, trying to form a successful musical band in We Are Lady Parts.. It's streaming on Neon and Sky Go.
Na, sex stuff is only an attack on humanity if it is without consent ..
Once upon a time, safe women's spaces meant places where no one could be openly lesbian because other females might be sexually insecure. So the special one was the only openly lesbian female at Yale University Graduate School.
Then came the TERF'S, women insecure about those not born biologically female in women's spaces (which began with hetero sexual right wingers who support marriage between a man and a woman). And some lesbian women (who had been active in feminist causes, including women's refuges) supported the cause. But the special one (who claimed the best idea man had was God) was now openly transgender.
But others also openly lesbian did not come out as transgender, they remained lesbian cisgender, and yet were more openly in support for the breadth of the rainbow cause than the chosen one.
So they tried to de-platform the chosen one for being anti transgender (those identifying as women but were born male) – to be fair the chosen one annoyed as many feminists as she could before she became transgender and did the same to them.
To quote a cisgender male who was also to annoy people of the cultural group he was born into "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a transgender lesbian to please everybody" (something about having too rich or fine a taste in flesh).
Then came the queer friendly feminist cisgender female solo parent who created a character who rebelled against her creator, with these magical words "Trans rights are human rights”.
So many are betrayed by what they create. But it always begins with a woman giving birth or one born to a woman writing something on some platform.
We create our own cultures SPC, or have them forced on us despite our wishes or expectations.
So our experience of 'humanity' is always affected by the current beliefs and practices. But as you say it always starts with a woman giving birth, and preparing for that happening is something the body does involuntarily. This should be acknowledged and indeed should be revered, both by others and the female herself.
Sexuality is usually expected to be enjoyable, but if women and men take sexuality too lightly, the life force inside each of us is not acknowledged, and I think we become neutered mentally; which is different from undergoing vasectomy or permanent contraception.
SPC Once upon a time, safe women's spaces meant places where no one could be openly lesbian because other females might be sexually insecure.
What would be involved by being open lesbian? Holding hands, kissing each other, for instance? That surely would not upset other women who might be 'sexually insecure'. There is an expectation that explicit sexual behaviour be done in private. That isn't unreasonable is it?
Hipkins needs to put his ass kicking boots on, and tell the MOH to sort out their shit before giving him a graph to release. Does no one there actually sense check or proof read? How embarrassing.
At one point he brought up Afghanistan, saying Merkel "saw the progress that could be made" for women and girls in the country through the West's involvement.
"It's unbelievable how that society changed from the brutality of the Taliban," he said.
"And now all of a sudden, sadly, I'm afraid Afghan women and girls are going to suffer unspeakable harm."
"Is it a mistake to withdraw?" asked interviewer Ines Pohl.
"You know, I think it is, yeah. Because I think the consequences are going to be unbelievably bad," said Bush.
George W Bush in response to Joseph Biden saying the USA was not in Afghanistan to nation build, that it was not a forever war.
Meanwhile in southern Iraq Shia militias (Teheran approved hit lists) are killing secular women – as was reported by the BBC in late in 2020 before Biden became POTUS.
This story is now not compatible with Biden's policy to return to the nuclear deal with Iran while continuing the Trump Pompeo line of using human rights as a stick to beat China with (ya can see how BBC plays the game and became complicit in the WMD story in 2002).
Peak milk. That's an interesting idea. What else are we at the peak of, and might hope to see return to a more balanced level? And not balancing on a tightrope either.
Sugar tax is a silly idea. Simply regulate the maximum allowed in any food or food type – that was originally in the draft WHO guidelines that manufacturers use – but didn't appear in the final report. Turned out later the conference to establish the guidelines was significantly funded by the sugar industry -hence the missing maximum.
Ban it completely in things like bottled water though – shouldn't be allowed to be called water if it has added sugar – or salt.
"The industry is furious at the guidelines, which say that sugar should account for no more than 10% of a healthy diet. It claims that the review by international experts which decided on the 10% limit is scientifically flawed, insisting that other evidence indicates that a quarter of our food and drink intake can safely consist of sugar."
I remember a NZ scientist was involved in writing the original report in 2000.
"Sugar has never enriched anyone but slave traders, local landlords, industrial farmers, sugar barons, speculators, food corporations, PR consultants and professional politicians. No-one has ever traded their way out of poverty with sugar, and there’s no reason to suppose that they ever will. "
The Sandflys are still telling shit to people about me and my Whano and fucking with me and my Sons employment. What they are doing is and has stuffed up my Whano future prosperity. Who cares we are just dum black Maoris in their books.
Buzz from the Beehive Transport Minister Simeon Brown dutifully issued advice to all road users to keep safe on our roads during the Easter weekend. He encouraged them to stay safe, plan their journeys ahead of time, and be patient with other drivers while travelling around this Easter long weekend. ...
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Buzz from the Beehive Waves of rain are set to lash much of the North Island during Easter Weekend as a low-pressure system forms east of New Zealand, according to a weather forecast published in the past day or so. Niwa was warning of a “moisture-laden” long weekend, with rain expected ...
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Buzz from the Beehive The media – sure enough – have been binging on Finance Minister Nicola Willis’ release of the Budget Policy Statement and a statement headed Government announces Budget priorities This assures us – or rather, this parrots the Luxon team mantra – that the Budget “will deliver ...
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The Inspector General of Intelligence and Security (IGIS) recently released a report in which he exposes the existence of a foreign intelligence partner-controlled technological “capability” inside the headquarters of the GCSB, NZ’s 5 Eyes-affiliated signals intelligence collection and analysis agency. … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – Nearly three decades after the introduction of MMP and multiparty governments there should be a greater level of understanding about their finer points than often appears to be the case. The reaction to the despicable outburst from the Deputy Prime Minister at the weekend highlights ...
The sweet kisses from fruit of summerHave slowly been turning dullerYou say, "those times"And "remember the daysWhen we went outside and there still was the shade?"Taking no reason into play…Autumn. Clear, blue days shortening to longer nights, growing colder. Aotearoa.That’s us. The temperature dropping, the looming car crash - so ...
Bryce Edwards writes – “It is often said that behind every great man is a great woman”. This is the pitch by the National Party Botany electorate branch to attend their “Ladies Afternoon Tea with Amanda Luxon”. For $110 including GST, you can turn up on Saturday 20 April ...
David Farrar writes – The Electoral Commission has published the expense returns for political parties for the 2023 election. I’ve put them in a table with how many votes a party got so we can see the spend per vote. National only spent $3.34 for every vote they got, almost ...
Winston Peters’ headline-making actions over the past week may have been a show of political power intended to strengthen his hand in Budget negotiations. It was no accident that his State of the Nation speech was as it was. He made it as New Zealand First Leader, not as Deputy ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:Former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson bowed out of politics this week, giving a series of exit ...
Graham Adams writes — If you love the law or sausages, as the saying goes, best not to look too closely at how they are made. And after watching the orgy of self-pity when Newshub’s closure was announced on February 28, television journalism should definitely be added to the list of those ...
Venerable New Zealand political commentator, Chris Trotter (https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/), is a sad creature these days. Once one of the most reliable Leftist writers out there – Economic Left at that – Trotter seems to have absorbed the worldview of Auckland culture-war obsessives. It is not for me to categorise what he ...
The cruelty of short-term memory loss is that each time you ask where she is, you get the fresh shock and grief of the news. That was Dad's day yesterday.Comfortingly, it seems to be less so today. Last night he looked crumpled, today he seems more settled. There's a card ...
The Coalition Government’s plan to ‘get Auckland moving’ is a cuts cover-up that will ultimately cost Aucklanders more to move around the city, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Slashing the Ministry of Pacific Peoples by 40% will have a devastating impact on pacific communities and further highlights how little this government cares about anything other than cutting taxes for the wealthiest few. ...
Labour has proposed an urgent inquiry to investigate the ever-increasing profits of supermarkets, aiming to lower costs for shoppers and food producers alike, says Labour Spokesperson for Commerce and Consumer Affairs Arena Williams and Primary Production Spokesperson Cushla Tangaere-Manuel. ...
With 14% of jobs on the line at the Ministry for Ethnic Communities, the responsible Minister Melissa Lee is failing to stand up for the very communities she’s meant to be representing. ...
COURT OF APPEAL: TRIFECTA OF VICTORY FOR NZ FIRST, TRIFECTA OF FAILURE FOR OPPONENTS For the third time since April 2020, New Zealand First has defeated the Serious Fraud Office and all those complicit in a malicious attack against a political party going about its lawful business in a lawful ...
The Green Party stands with people who live in public housing, people in dire housing need, experts and advocates in demanding better than the Government’s archaic approach to housing those who need our support the most. ...
New Zealand has recently lost the hosting rights of some major international sporting events including the America’s Cup, the Rugby Championship, Netball World Cup, and the Wellington Sevens. We are now at a huge risk of losing SailGP as well. And it won’t stop there. The recent issues with SailGP ...
A Member’s Bill drawn this week would modernise insurance law and make things fairer and more transparent for consumers, Christchurch Central MP Duncan Webb said. ...
The Minister for Disability Issues has confirmed she was aware of funding issues in mid-December and did nothing to stop it. On 14 March, she signed off on changes that were announced and implemented on 18 March without any consultation with disability communities. ...
Green Party MP Julie Anne Genter says her members' bill is an opportunity for the coalition government to plug the gap in electric vehicle incentives. ...
The National Government continues to talk about irresponsible tax cuts that will only drive up inflation, despite the country entering a technical recession. ...
The Minister for Disability Issues must act urgently to reinstate flexibility around the funding for disability support and apologise to disabled carers. ...
This story has been initiated by a leftie shill reporter who proactively sought to call a member of a former band, which disbanded twelve years ago, give their biased appraisal of what was said in my speech, and concocted a ham-fisted attempt at a story that does nothing but show ...
The Government has accepted Labour’s change to the Road User Charge (RUC) discount for hybrid vehicles, meaning there will still be some incentive for people to buy greener vehicles. ...
Many in the mainstream media have taken what was said in New Zealand First’s State of the Nation Speech in Palmerston North on Sunday and deliberately, deceitfully, and ignorantly misrepresented what I said and why I said it. The headlines and commentary on the news stated that I compared ‘co-governance ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
Good afternoon. Thank you for, in your very busy lives, turning up to this meeting today. On October 14th last year New Zealanders overwhelmingly voted for change. That is exactly what this new government is bringing. New Zealand First campaigned to ‘take back our country’ and stop the disastrous economic ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed the passing of legislation to move light electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) into the road user charges system from 1 April. “It was always intended that EVs and PHEVs would be exempt from road user charges until they reached two ...
New Zealand is strengthening its ability to combat illegal fishing outside its domestic waters and beef up regulation for its own commercial fishers in international waters through a Bill which had its first reading in Parliament today. The Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill 2023 sets out stronger ...
Economists Carl Hansen and Professor Prasanna Gai have been appointed to the Reserve Bank Monetary Policy Committee, Finance Minister Nicola Willis announced today. The Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) is the independent decision-making body that sets the Official Cash Rate which determines interest rates. Carl Hansen, the executive director of Capital ...
Apartment owners and buyers will soon have greater protections as further changes to the law on unit titles come into effect, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “The Unit Titles (Strengthening Body Corporate Governance and Other Matters) Amendment Act had already introduced some changes in December 2022 and May 2023, and ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Egypt and Europe from this weekend. “This travel will focus on a range of New Zealand’s traditional diplomatic and security partnerships while enabling broad engagement on the urgent situation in Gaza,” Mr Peters says. Mr Peters will attend the NATO Foreign ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown is encouraging all road users to stay safe, plan their journeys ahead of time, and be patient with other drivers while travelling around this Easter long weekend. “Road safety is a responsibility we all share, and with increased traffic on our roads expected this Easter we ...
About 1.4 million New Zealanders will receive cost of living relief through increased government assistance from April 1 909,000 pensioners get a boost to Superannuation, including 5000 veterans 371,000 working-age beneficiaries will get higher payments 45,000 students will see an increase in their allowance Over a quarter of New Zealanders ...
Ensuring social housing is being provided to those with the greatest needs is front of mind as the Government restarts social housing tenancy reviews, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. “Our relentless focus on building a strong economy is to ensure we can deliver better public services such as social ...
The Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary will not go ahead, with Cabinet deciding to stop work on the proposed reserve and remove the Bill that would have established it from Parliament’s order paper. “The Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary Bill would have created a 620,000 sq km economic no-go zone,” Oceans and Fisheries Minister ...
Dam safety regulations are being amended so that smaller dams won’t be subject to excessive compliance costs, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on reducing costs and removing unnecessary red tape so we can get the economy back on track. “Dam safety regulations ...
The coalition Government is expanding the medium-scale adverse event classification to parts of the North Island as dry weather conditions persist, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced today. “I have made the decision to expand the medium-scale adverse event classification already in place for parts of the South Island to also cover the ...
The passing of legislation giving effect to coalition Government tax commitments has been welcomed by Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill will help place New Zealand on a more secure economic footing, improve outcomes for New Zealanders, and make our tax system ...
Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins and Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds today announced plans to transform our science and university sectors to boost the economy. Two advisory groups, chaired by Professor Sir Peter Gluckman, will advise the Government on how these sectors can play a greater ...
The Budget will deliver urgently-needed tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders while putting the government’s finances back on a sustainable track, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The Finance Minister made the comments at the release of the Budget Policy Statement setting out the Government’s Budget objectives. “The coalition Government intends ...
The coalition Government will look at options to address a zoning issue that limits how much financial support Queenstown residents can get for accommodation. Cabinet has agreed on a response to the Petitions Committee, which had recommended the geographic information MSD uses to determine how much accommodation supplement can be ...
Cabinet has agreed to a short extension to the final reporting timeframe for the Royal Commission into Abuse in Care from 28 March 2024 to 26 June 2024, Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says. “The Royal Commission wrote to me on 16 February 2024, requesting that I consider an ...
The coalition Government is delivering an $18 million boost to New Zealanders needing to travel for specialist health treatment, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says. “These changes are long overdue – the National Travel Assistance (NTA) scheme saw its last increase to mileage and accommodation rates way back in 2009. ...
The Government is recognising the innovative and rising talent in New Zealand’s growing space sector, with the Prime Minister and Space Minister Judith Collins announcing the new Prime Minister’s Prizes for Space today. “New Zealand has a growing reputation as a high-value partner for space missions and research. I am ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has confirmed New Zealand’s concerns about cyber activity have been conveyed directly to the Chinese Government. “The Prime Minister and Minister Collins have expressed concerns today about malicious cyber activity, attributed to groups sponsored by the Chinese Government, targeting democratic institutions in both New ...
Independent Reviewers appointed for School Property Inquiry Education Minister Erica Stanford today announced the appointment of three independent reviewers to lead the Ministerial Inquiry into the Ministry of Education’s School Property Function. The Inquiry will be led by former Minister of Foreign Affairs Murray McCully. “There is a clear need ...
State Highway 1 across the Brynderwyns will be open for Easter weekend, with work currently underway to ensure the resilience of this critical route being paused for Easter Weekend to allow holiday makers to travel north, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Today I visited the Brynderwyn Hills construction site, where ...
Introduction Good morning to you all, and thanks for having me bright and early today. I am absolutely delighted to be the Minister for Infrastructure alongside the Minister of Housing and Resource Management Reform. I know the Prime Minister sees the three roles as closely connected and he wants me ...
New Zealand stands with the United Kingdom in its condemnation of People’s Republic of China (PRC) state-backed malicious cyber activity impacting its Electoral Commission and targeting Members of the UK Parliament. “The use of cyber-enabled espionage operations to interfere with democratic institutions and processes anywhere is unacceptable,” Minister Responsible for ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced New Zealand will provide logistics support for the upcoming Solomon Islands election. “We’re sending a team of New Zealand Defence Force personnel and two NH90 helicopters to provide logistics support for the election on 17 April, at the request ...
The European Union Free Trade Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill received Royal Assent today, completing the process for New Zealand’s ratification of its free trade agreement with the European Union. “I am pleased to announce that today, in a small ceremony at the Beehive, New Zealand notified the European Union ...
Public consultation on the terms of reference for the Royal Commission into COVID-19 Lessons has concluded, Internal Affairs Minister Hon Brooke van Velden says. “I have been advised that there were over 11,000 submissions made through the Royal Commission’s online consultation portal.” Expanding the scope of the Royal Commission of ...
Hardworking families are set to benefit from a new credit to help them meet their early childcare education (ECE) costs, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. From 1 July, parents and caregivers of young children will be supported to manage the rising cost of living with a partial reimbursement of their ...
A specialised Independent Technical Advisory Group (ITAG) tasked with preparing and publishing independent non-binding advice on the design of a "green" (sustainable finance) taxonomy rulebook is being established, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “Comprising experts and market participants, the ITAG's primary goal is to deliver comprehensive recommendations to the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins has thanked the Chief of Army, Major General John Boswell, DSD, for his service as he leaves the Army after 40 years. “I would like to thank Major General Boswell for his contribution to the Army and the wider New Zealand Defence Force, undertaking many different ...
25 March 2024 Minister to meet Australian counterparts and Manufacturing Industry Leaders Small Business, Manufacturing, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly will travel to Australia for a series of bi-lateral meetings and manufacturing visits. During the visit, Minister Bayly will meet with his Australian counterparts, Senator Tim Ayres, Ed ...
Government commits almost $3 million for period products in schools The Coalition Government has committed $2.9 million to ensure intermediate and secondary schools continue providing period products to those who need them, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “This is an issue of dignity and ensuring young women don’t ...
Good morning, it’s great to be here. First, I would like to acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of Building Surveyors and thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning. I would like to use this opportunity to outline the Government’s ambitious plan and what we hope to ...
Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti has announced the Government’s commitment to the Auckland Secondary Schools Māori and Pacific Islands Cultural Festival, more commonly known as Polyfest. “The Ministry for Pacific Peoples is a longtime supporter of Polyfest and, as it celebrates 49 years in 2024, I’m proud to ...
Before moving onto the substance of today’s address, I want to recognise the very significant and ongoing contribution the Breast Cancer Foundation makes to support the lives of New Zealand women and their families living with breast cancer. I very much enjoy working with you. I also want to recognise ...
New Zealand has notched up a first with the launch of University of Canterbury research to the International Space Station, Science, Innovation and Technology and Space Minister Judith Collins says. The hardware, developed by Dr Sarah Kessans, is designed to operate autonomously in orbit, allowing scientists on Earth to study ...
Introduction Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today and I’m sorry I can’t be there in person. Yesterday I started in Wellington for Breakfast TV, spoke to a property conference in Auckland, and finished the day speaking to local government in Christchurch, so it would have been ...
The Coalition Government is contributing more than $1 million to support the establishment of an emergency multi-agency coordination centre in Northland. Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell announced the contribution today during a visit of the Whangārei site where the facility will be constructed. “Northland has faced a number ...
New Zealanders have enjoyed a broader range of voices telling the story of Aotearoa thanks to the creation of Whakaata Māori 20 years ago, says Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka. The minister spoke at a celebration marking the national indigenous media organisation’s 20th anniversary at their studio in Auckland on ...
Commercial catch limits for some fisheries have been increased following a review showing stocks are healthy and abundant, Ocean and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The changes, along with some other catch limit changes and management settings, begin coming into effect from 1 April 2024. "Regular biannual reviews of fish ...
Opposition MPs and unions are criticising a proposal by New Zealand’s Ministry of Pacific Peoples to cut staff by 40 percent. The country’s largest trade union — The Public Service Association — says the ministry has informed staff that it is looking to shed 63 of 156 positions. Opposition MPs ...
A poem by Poetry Aotearoa Yearbook 2024 featured poet Carin Smeaton. Daughtr of the 90s when she gets promoted to usherette a baby blu eel carries her all the way up to mothership she’s hovering high she lets the underaged in to see keanu reeves she lets the only lonely ...
Analysis by Keith Rankin. Keith Rankin, trained as an economic historian, is a retired lecturer in Economics and Statistics. He lives in Auckland, New Zealand. My earlier article – Can ‘Good’ be the Greater Evil? – looked at the issue of how wars should end, and how Good versus Evil ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 AMMA by Saraid de Silva (Moa Press, $38)A stunning debut novel reviewed by Brannavan ...
From Steve Martin to Ricky Stanicky, a pick’n’mix of things worth watching and listening to this long weekend. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. If you’re at a loss for something to occupy yourself with this Easter, don’t panic: The Spinoff’s got ...
Jesus had dinner with his 12 disciples right before he died. Noted historian Madeleine Chapman finds out who really deserved to be there.First published in 2018 but let’s be honest, the subject is timeless. As you sit on your couch this Easter Sunday, eating a chocolate egg you know ...
The newly-promoted Northern League club is on a mission to return to the National League for the first time in two decades. Plenty about domestic football in New Zealand has changed in that time – but the sense that this amateur competition is not an entirely level playing field remains. ...
NONFICTION 1 BBQ Economics by Liam Dann (Penguin Random House, $40) “It’s official,” wrote Dann nine days ago in the Herald, where he works as business editor at large, “we’re in recession.” Yeah, great. He delivered the bad stats: “GDP fell 0.1 percent in the December 2023 quarter, compared with ...
Comment: Every year on February 2, a dozen men in tuxedos and top hats approach the burrow of a groundhog in Gobbler’s Knob, Pennsylvania and entice the beaver-like rodent to emerge and predict the weather. If the groundhog, named Punxsutawney Phil, sees its own shadow when it is summoned, legend ...
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Auckland Council has put a deadline on new weather-impacted property owners applying for categorisation as government funding looks set to run out. Councillors have voted to support a deadline of September 30 for property owners who haven’t accessed support to come forward and engage with the council’s recovery office. It ...
By Anneke Smith, RNZ News political reporter A petition urging the New Zealand government to provide urgent humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people has been tabled in the House. More than 200 people gathered on Parliament’s forecourt today and they were met by MPs from Labour, the Greens and Te ...
Pacific Media Watch The Paris-based global media freedom watchdog RSF (Reporters Without Borders) has appealed for information about the “disappearance” of Palestinian journalist Bayan Abusultan. She was reportedly last seen on March 19 among people “sequestered” in this week’s raid and siege of Al Shifa hospital by Israeli troops in ...
EDITORIAL:The Jakarta Post It happens again and again; indigenous Papuans fall victim to Indonesian soldiers. This time, we have photographic evidence for the brutality, with videos on social media showing a Papuan man being tortured by a group of plainclothes men alleged to be the Indonesian Military (TNI) members. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Robyn J. Whitaker, Director of the Wesley Centre for Theology, Ethics, and Public Policy & Associate Professor, New Testament, Pilgrim Theological College, University of Divinity A strange and eclectic range of activities takes place across these few weeks of the year. Some ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Panizza Allmark, Professor Visual & Cultural Studies, Edith Cowan University It’s Easter weekend, which means many of us will be kicking back with the greatest hits on repeat. But whether you’re a boomer, or an ‘80s or ’90s kid, you might be ...
RNZ Pacific Fiji’s Acting Public Prosecutor has filed an appeal against the sentences of former prime minister Voreqe Bainimarama and suspended police chief Sitiveni Qiliho in their corruption case. Bainimarama was granted an absolute discharge for attempting to pervert the course of justice while Qiliho received a conditional discharge with ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Arosha Weerakoon, Senior Lecturer and General Dentist, School of Dentistry, The University of Queensland Casezy idea/Shutterstock How does toothpaste work? What did people use before toothpaste was invented? – Amelia, age 7, Meanjin (Brisbane) Thanks for your ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brett Hallam, Associate professor, UNSW Sydney IM Imagery/Shutterstock Solar SunShot is well named. The Australian government announced today it would plough A$1 billion into bringing back solar manufacturing to Australia, boosting energy security, swapping coal and gas jobs for those ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Dix, Research Fellow in Nutrition & Dietetics, The University of Queensland Easter is the time for chocolate. The shops are full of fantastically packaged and shiny chocolates in all shapes and sizes, making trips to the supermarket with children more challenging ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emma Felton, Adjunct Senior Researcher, University of South Australia Even in a stubborn cost-of-living crisis, it seems there’s one luxury most Australians won’t sacrifice – their daily cup of coffee. Coffee sales have largely remained stable, even as financial pressures have ...
Mining company Trans-Tasman Resources has unexpectedly withdrawn its application for a consent to suck the valuable metals vanadium and titanium from the Taranaki seafloor, as it apparently wagers on the Government’s new fast-track process. It had spent two-and-a-half days putting its case to the Environmental Protection Agency’s decision-making committee, at ...
Contrary to the Associate Minister of Education’s claims, analysis of Healthy School Lunches Programme - Ka Ora, Ka Ako assessments has revealed it provides excellent value for the taxpayer dollar, as a groundswell of public opposition to Government ...
Greenpeace says wannabe Taranaki seabed miner Trans-Tasman Resources is likely banking on Christopher Luxon’s fast-track process to side-step proper scrutiny of its Taranaki seabed mining proposal by bailing out of the Environmental Protection Agency hearing ...
Kiwis Against Seabed mining today slammed Australian owned would-be seabed miner Trans Tasman Resources (TTR) for abandoning its application to the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) to mine the seabed of the South Taranaki Bight. The company ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katie Attwell, Associate Professor, School of Social Sciences, The University of Western Australia Ground Picture/Shutterstock Months after COVID vaccines were introduced in 2021, governments and private organisations mandated them for various groups. Health and aged care workers were among the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Dzurak, Scientia Professor Andrew Dzurak, CEO and Founder of Diraq, UNSW Sydney Diraq For decades, the pursuit of quantum computing has struggled with the need for extremely low temperatures, mere fractions of a degree above absolute zero (0 Kelvin or ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne A national Essential poll, conducted March 20–24 from a sample of 1,150, gave the Coalition a 50–44 lead including undecided, a reversal ...
The Taxpayers’ Union has today made a formal request under the Regulations of the People’s Republic of China on Open Government Information () for information held about how New Zealand Members of Parliament are spending taxpayer ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Robert Nelson, Honorary Principal Fellow, The University of Melbourne A Byzantine depiction of the Eucharist in Saint Sophia Cathedral, Kyiv.Jacek555/Wikimedia Commons, CC BY-SA A nasty quarrel arose in the 11th century over what kind of bread should be used in holy ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Patrick Hesp, Professor, Flinders University Patrick Hesp In some parts of Australia, coastal dunes are retreating from the ocean at an alarming rate, as waves carve up the beach and wind blows the sand inland. But coastal communities are largely ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Luke Heemsbergen, Senior Lecturer, Digital, Political, Media, Deakin University With an impressive 60% of the US smartphone market, Apple is undeniably big, but not a clear monopoly. Yet, years of innovation by Apple have effectively given the company its own exclusive ...
Whether you’re facing layoffs or are just an emotional junior staffer, it’s always a good idea to scout out a good crying place before you need it. It’s an incredibly hard time for Wellington. Across the city, thousands of public servants are hearing tough news about redundancies and layoffs. Government ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Miller-Jones, Professor, Curtin University Nuclear explosions on a neutron star feed its jets. Danielle Futselaar and Nathalie Degenaar, Anton Pannekoek Institute, University of Amsterdam, CC BY-SA How fast can a neutron star drive powerful jets into space? The answer, it ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Daryl Adair, Associate Professor of Sport Management, University of Technology Sydney Earlier this week, independent MP Andrew Wilkie accused the AFL of conducting “off the books” illicit drug testing to identify players using substances of abuse, then inappropriately withdrawing them from matches ...
The Government’s announcement that it will scrap plans for a vast marine sanctuary around the Kermadec Islands is ‘shameful’ and will make it impossible for Aotearoa New Zealand to meet its international commitments, says the World Wide Fund for Nature ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Quiggin, Professor, School of Economics, The University of Queensland Shutterstock The federal government has bowed to pressure from the car industry, announcing it will relax proposed emissions rules for utes and vans and delay enforcement of the new standards ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Suzanne Rutland, Professor Emerita, University of Sydney In his latest book, Jewish Life in Medieval Spain, Jonathan Ray focuses on the tumult of the 14th century in Spain – a time of the plague, civil strife and war between the two largest ...
While creating a slate of world-class shows, Whakaata Māori also developed a generation of world-class creatives. Television is an odd word. It mixes the Ancient Greek and Latin languages, and its most literal meaning is “far-off sight”. In the contemporary and living language of te reo Māori, “whakaata” as a ...
Yesterday the UN Security Council passed a resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Israel’s war on Gaza. This significant step and the deteriorating humanitarian situation in Gaza prompted an urgent debate in the New Zealand Parliament. Leader ...
The Government’s decision to reduce access to continuous glucose monitors (CGM) not only threatens the lives of children with type 1 diabetes and increases the potential for ‘Dead in Bed’ syndrome, but also threatens the health of their parents an ...
Apples are available year-round, but the wide variety on offer involves intensive scientific research – and large-scale commercialisation. What’s beautiful, red, sweet and crunchy? Tony Martin’s favourite kind of apple: Sassy. The CEO of apple and pear breeding organisation Prevar, Martin’s fondness for Sassy represents professional success as well as ...
Family violence specialist service Shine is calling on employers to stop asking for proof of domestic violence in order for employees to access domestic violence leave. The call comes five years after the introduction of the Domestic Violence ...
The Deputy Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee is calling for public submissions on the Budget Policy Statement 2024. The Budget Policy Statement 2024 (BPS) sets out the Government's priorities for the 2024 Budget. It explains the approach ...
Brutal government spending cuts that will see the size of the Ministry for Pacific Peoples slashed by 40% will hit Pasifika communities hard, the PSA says. The Ministry has told staff that it is seeking voluntary redundancies, and to redeploy and reassign ...
I live with five people I mostly love, but our different ideas about generosity are starting to really irk me.Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzDear Hera,This is a bit of a random one but here goes. I’m 22 and work an OK job (OK meaning I get paid ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Maria Nicholas, Senior Lecturer in Language and Literacy Education, Deakin University Earlier this month, the New South Wales government announced it would roll out programs for gifted students in every public school in the state. This comes amid concerns gifted school ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Christopher Rudge, Law lecturer, University of Sydney Massachusetts General Hospital In a world first, we heard last week that US surgeons had transplanted a kidney from a gene-edited pig into a living human. News reports said the procedure was a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Tombs, Howard Paterson Chair of Theology and Public Issues, University of Otago The 5th-century Maskell panel showing Jesus in a loincloth.British Museum, CC BY-NC-SA When Jesus is shown on the cross, he is almost always depicted wearing a loincloth around ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Panizza Allmark, Professor Visual & Cultural Studies, Edith Cowan University Shutterstock When you think about a red object, you might picture a red carpet, or the massive ruby in the Queen’s crown. Indeed, Western monarchies and marketing from brands such ...
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"Last night, about a crowd of 160 people attended an AAG meeting in Gore.
The audience listened to topics including why there is no evidence there is a climate emergency and three pieces of legislation of concern to farmers.
Retired science teacher Peter Foster, of Waikouaiti, and AAG co- founders Ms Pennycock and Robert Wilson addressed the crowd.
Mr Wilson said he always encouraged people to do their own research to find out if what the group shared was true.
‘‘Don’t take everything we say as gospel.’’
"Pretty early on there were some wild conspiracy theories being peddled, regarding the United Nations’ Agenda 21, and that organisation’s leading of a shadowy global cabal dictating to our Government.
"Having worked within government, frankly, that’s nonsense, but because there’s an underlying tension founded on legitimate policy concerns currently, it could be persuasive for some, which is unhelpful."
He said a young farmer attempting to voice his concerns about the direction of the meeting was shouted down by other audience members.
"When you get people stirred up enough, it’s easy to incite them to civil disobedience.”"
Mayor Bryan Cadogan
https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rural-people/rural-group’s-‘wild-conspiracy-theories’-criticised
A lot will hinge on the scale of the protests this week. If there's a decent showing, Act will capitalise.
There will be a huge turnout. Even the more level-headed of our rural brothers are darkly intimating ongoing and escalating actions.
Canterbury farmers inparticular have already shown they have a Pinochet like relationship with democracy is it threatens their water rights. Basically, they'll threaten resorting to violence if the government actually gets serious about dirty dairying / water pollution and allocation of water.
This action is merely a front for a group of latifundia corporate farmers who are preparing to fight to the death to protect their ability to help themselves to scarce public water and pollute waterways at will.
latifundia – a large landed estate or ranch in ancient Rome or more recently in Spain or Latin America, typically worked by peasants or slaves.
Interesting word Sanctuary. And it is my view that is the direction we are going in here in all of NZ. We aren't a British colony any more but various governments are racing towards making us a Global-Wealth one.
Your summation of the 'rentier' farming situation is probably correct, and the rural rent-a-crowd that turn up to such meetings find fat pockets and promises of more, a valuable prompt to action.
Oh that one is widespread. They are conflating neo-liberal dogma (which they would have voted for) and global market cooperation. I suspect they imagine there's a huge cave somewhere with lots of sinister little green men plotting to bring down the world and rebuild it again in their own evil image.
I also love the way they project their behaviour of falsehoods, manipulation and deceit onto the shoulders of the internationally renowned experts supported by their respective governments and the United Nations.
NB. I can't cut and paste quotes anymore. Typed it in long hand.
There's also the socially toxic notion of Sovereign Citizenry. But I am finding it hard to quote on Mobile today myself – something to do with recent updates?
This at the end from the AAG cofounder seems worth typing though:
Sadly this talk of conspiracy theories and other ideas does not surprise me.
I spent a month visiting friends and family in the farming community in Southland earlier in the year. After finding we were not able to talk about the March 15th tragedy ( 'PM had no right wearing the hijab scarf' and 'gun legislation over reaction') or the Covid pandemic ('PM called the lock down too late', 'unfair to call the Bluff cluster the Bluff wedding cluster as most did not live in Bluff and anyway the virus was caught at the after match function in Invercargill the next day')
…I then mentioned how I was doing my bit by completing the MOH flutracker each week and the reports that came out were always interesting
https://info.flutracking.net/reports-2/new-zealand-reports/
Stony silence with the distinct impression that govt depts wanting anonymised information on whether you had a sore throat, or a sniffle, cough or runny nose so they could track this through the community was beyond the pale. Big Govt at its worst…..
This is a community where the Nats held out against the prevailing swing to Labour, where there are still instances of what I call cruelty to animals with cattle forced to calve, yet again, in bogs and knee deep mud
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rural/2021/07/animal-welfare-campaigners-condemn-otago-southland-farmers-caught-grazing-stock-on-substandard-paddocks.html
Where I saw instances of tradies advertising on their websites, presumably as a selling point, that they support guns by saying the staff go hunting etc.
Hunters sure, each to our own hobbies, but as a selling point and either oblivious or uncaring as to the effect on possible clients who did not support this type of life?
This is anecdotal sure but it shocked me to the core…….
Mods — I withdraw all allegations that I made about Glenn Greenwald at the end of last month.
Move on. https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/gender-and-society/300356898/settling-the-debate-oldtime-politicians-grasping-at-gender-and-race-for-relevance
Brilliant analogy for how nonsensical some of the discussion around here has become lately.
https://twitter.com/postingdad/status/1415046197237084166
https://twitter.com/postingdad/status/1415047798240645122
and…
https://twitter.com/postingdad/status/1415054041336344577
https://twitter.com/postingdad/status/1415056083740028929
and…
https://twitter.com/Paula_Griffin65/status/1415058240333926401
https://twitter.com/bootstheory/status/1415058549533675523
As a junior coach, its clear Football doesn't need a campaign to convince parents their kids will be safer in Football rather than Rugby.
Totally ! Also a game which offers a lot more opportunity globally than rugby ever will.
Of course, as you well know, Nic, rugby is also a kind of football. The very creation of the word "soccer" in nineteenth century England is confirmation of that fact: it was necessary to distinguish Association Football from Rugby Football.
Finally somebody who groks it. Morrissey, if only you had written that thread it would have contained humour.
Ha! Thanks Nic, you're a ray of sunshine for the rest of us.
Morrissey. It is rugby (union) not football.
?? When did rugby football (or rugby union football if you want to be super-precise) stop being football? Has it suddenly changed into hockey? Do they play with a puck instead of a football now?
tee hee, but actually gender critical women say yes we have nothing against "rugby" we just don't want them rugby players bringing their balls on to our playing fields or in our change rooms!
….gender critical women say yes we have nothing against "rugby" we just don't want them rugby players bringing their balls on to our playing fields or in our change rooms!
And here was me thinking the whole 'shape of the balls' analogy was out of place in this discussion!
The only controversial thing in that thread is the use of Soccer ahead of Football. You will be language policed in some contexts for that (I have been as a masters player and coach before) but since postdad doesn't fit in Football this comedic opportunity fell wanting on their lack of knowledge.
Most people in this country, and in Australia and the United States use the clear and uncontroversial term "soccer" for the association game. "Football" usually means rugby football in this country, Australian Rules football across the ditch, and in America it is (ridiculously) that game played on a gridiron where hardly anything happens and hardly anyone is allowed to touch the ball, let alone kick it.
The Phoenix clearly needed to replace the SUFW billboard with their own, Football: a game played with a spherical ball.
Perhaps so.
What do the heads of the NZ Police and NZ Rugby have in common?
A misguided belief their subordinates are positive role models.
What's that saying about sarcasm being the lowest form of wit? Okay, I'll accept low grade satire and I accept it's from someone who's on a high from being dealt a get-out-of-misogyny-jail-free card to add to his already trump-filled hand courtesy of being a white, young, able-bodied, educated, socially & geographically mobile bloke. After all, it's not just okay to attack TERFs – it's positively de rigeur for those on Neo-liberalism's left wing. Get your progressive credentials upgraded by giving an easy target a kicking- what's not to like?
thanks for letting us know you don't understand what the GCF politics are. Not to worry, there are many the same including postdad.
One of the best things I've been reading is Kathleen Stock's Material Girls. She's a philosopher at University of Sussex and is at the forefront of the GCF movement in the UK. The starting premise for the book is that we have to understand each other's position in the best possible interpretation if we want to debate in good faith. The first part of the book is outlining the GA (gender activist) positions as she understands them as made by GAs.
This is in stark contrast to the bullshit on all sides where people run arguments about their opposition when they don't even know what the opposition believes (Standardistas will be familiar with my short patience for people who make up shit about what other people think, it makes it impossible to debate when that happens). If you want to know what SUFW believe, talk to them. You don't have to agree but you will at least understand then what is being talked about.
and that is also a pretty good guide for what we could be doing on TS generally. It raises the quality of the debate hugely.
Which isn't to say don't quote postdad. But when the GA side is consistently misrepresenting the politics of GCFs, that's going to cause problems for discussion.
Haven't we had more than enough of this harmful nonsense dominating here day after day?
"haven't we had more than enough of this harmfl nonsense dominating here day after day?"
Sacha I think you were the first to post on this issue today…….
One of the things I find about this debate is that people who are trans activists almost never respond to the actual arguement put forward.
You don't get to control what dominates on the Standard Sascha. That's up to the moderators.
Please stop replying and only use the word Soccer from now on. – Sacha.
Nic a little naughty of you, but lol+
Seems to me that you may have misread Sacha’s comment, which appeared to be more of a desperate expression of opinion and perhaps even exasperation, not an attempt to take control. This is just my observation, of course.
Thank you. I am sorry for being extra intolerant today. Will no longer discuss the topic.
No worries. We all need a little ‘moral support’ now and then.
Indeed, was going to use another saying but instead this comes to mind: go with the flow or get out of the f-ing river.
Oh I don't know about that Incognito. Maybe I did mis-read it, maybe I didn't.
Seems like Nic the NZder with his comment. "Please stop replying and only use the word Soccor from now on – Sacha". interpreted as I did.
But believe it believe it not, I am glad you offered support to Sacha.
Weka,
i thought you might find this an interesting read and perspective. (i am pretty sick with the kiddies flu, and am not going to hang around, thus my 'reply').
https://lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/06/gary-powell-people-paid-indulgences-under-pope-leo-x-perhaps-not-such-a-far-cry-from-stonewalls-2500-to-get-on-the-supremely-righteous-wokeplace-inequality-index/
Read the whole thing, the headline is a bit long but short.
Great stuff Sabine.
get well soon
I was thinking of posting that article but didn't because I thought it would raise the temperature too much.
Glenn McConnell is very young. More activist reporter than respected journalist at this stage. I find while his premise is usually sound and is firmly grounded in the new generation, his language when getting those ideas across is a bit loose and sometimes needlessly overdramatic. He'll get better.
This one is pretty brutal but it's important because he does speak to the trans community who are without political (?) funding like SUFW are:
I agree with the basic premise that conservative groups are highjacking race for relevance, see Don Brash, David Seymour, Judith Collins, etc.
It's not so clear cut with SUFW. However the same is true that right wing politics has highjacked gender issues, SUFW now heavily involved at the highest level in NZ with Ani O'Brien now working for Judith Collins.
I have been studying Ani's Twitter feed for a while now, and it was only a matter of time before she joined National's team.
The concern trolling gradually intensified.
Ok Sacha and Muttonbird.
I am going to stick to the issues here. I think you are saying Muttonbird that SUFW receive govt funding? If so that is untrue. You have made a lot of assertions about SUFW which are untrue. Including that they are religious conservatives. If you go to their website and click on about us, or some such tab you will see that many of its members have very long histories of social activism, particularly for feminist issues.
You are saying that people say that SUFW have lobied against gender affirming medicines for children. That is true. The evidence for puberty blockers is unconvincing, and NICE (National Institue of Clinical Evidence) in their meta analysis of their efficacy say that there is no evidence they help with mental health problems, body image or gender dysphora. I have posted the link on here before. Happy to find it and post it again. They also recommend that if these drugs are prescribed that the be done so as part of a well conducted research trial with the need for high levels of consent by participants. I feel very concerned that kids at 16 years old are been given full masectomies and then hysterectomies at 18 years old. What about you? Are you o.k. with that? And cross sex hormones? The young person of 23 in the Listener article who is a biological women now has a male voice and an adams apple and really regrets her decision to transition. It unclear how effective de-transitioning will be. How do you feel about this. Is this o.k. with you? Breast binding in young women, causing breathing difficulties.
Because one thing I notice in these debates is I rarely get a response to these sorts of questions from people who oppose the SUFW arguements.
The sciene of trans women in sports is well established. I have already posted on here a radio nz article about Ross Tucker, a sports scienctist, who did a report for International Rugby. Happy to post the link again. While hugely apologetic to the trans community, he said the reality was biological women face a 30% increase in injury from tackling if trans women play. He also outlined in what way males have signicant advantages over women in sports. The 10,000 fastest male runners can beat the fastest women. Do you see this as an issue? Do you see why we might want to keep women's sport for women as set out in the Human Rights Act?
The issue of change rooms and public toilets. Let me be very clear here. In the Human Rights Act of 1993 it specifies that women have separate facilities for public safety and decency. I don't want to share these facilities with males who identify as women and haven't transistioned. SUFW are already hearing reports of this happening in NZ and women being put off going to places like gyms etc because of it. Personally as I have already revealed on this website I was the victim of an attack in a public change room, so I have an extra sensitivity here. If I were to see a biological male in a change room, it would potentially trigger quite a reaction for me.
I object to the changes of language being forced upon us. A person on the Daily Blog yesterday posted that someone has made a serious complaint at their workplace because they refused to use pro nouns or state whether they believe trans women are real women. This imposition on an ideology/belief system of people particularly in a workplace really concerns me. Up till recently no one has put me in a position where I have to concur with their belief system or face consequences. The NZ I know allows for people to agree to disagree. I want to keep it this way.
I also reject what I see as the de=humanizing de-construction of women in the change of language such as chest feeders, people who menustrate, birthing units.
And Sacha re your recent comment that you are going to give up giving up on explaining the language 101 (I am sorry that is not a direct quote,). I am pleased about that. Your attempts to correct my language were unsolicted and I am happy to leave it to the moderators on this site to pull me up if they think my words or comments are offensive.
So you are welcome to put up humour. It is a little provocative, but gee I can take it. I rather stick to the issues around here, which I have always attempted to do.
But of course happy to put gender critical humour up if that's going to be how the issues get debated from your side.
Good to hear your thinking and research here anker.
Here's the SUFW About https://speakupforwomen.nz/about-us/
I am not interested in turning this nonsense into a conversation. Does not warrant it. The tiny number of activists obsessed with other people's genitals can carry on howling into the wind.
Sacha, I’ll catch up later on the thread but briefly I’ve seen a couple of your comments that are catching my moderator eye. This is not usual with you so rather than us going down that track can I respectfully suggest taking a step back for a while?
Oh I have had more than enough. This is going nowhere.
I did not say that. I expect they receive funding from a number of sources. I suspect funding is increasing from wealthy right wing actors who are willing to highjack GC activism and use it as a weapon with which to attack the government.
Didn't say that either, although there is a similarity between GC theory’s absolutism and Christian fundamentalist absolutism on relationship matters.
I haven't gotten into discussion about hormone therapy and surgery because I'm not qualified. I haven't gotten into discussion about transgenders in sport because I acknowledge it's a work in progress. And I haven't gotten into discussion about toilets because it's not my place.
All of these things I don't respond to because to do so would be another case of a man 'inserting themselves' into places they are not welcome.
My comment @ 3.2 was about the strange marriage of convenience between SUFW and the National Party, and a little bit about what some young kids have to go through when adults argue over the top of them.
Discussions about amending the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Act have been underway since early 2015. In late 2018 SUFW arrived at the party.
https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview
The changes to gender self ID were added well after 2015. In fact they were added at select committee after the public submissions were closed. Crown Law thus advised Tracey Martin that the process was undemocratic and she moth balled the bill for this and other reasons.
Labour did not campaign on this issue. It was under their Rainbow policies.
As a party member, I was never asked about it, although they frequently sent out surveys of what issues were important to us.
Indeed. From Joe's link,
my emphasis.
Totally in support with Anker,Weka etc.
Edited,tried to cancel this but couldn't
Not my support,just in adding my two cents
Anker 3.2.2 Thank you and I applaud you.
An acquaintance of mine and their teen attended their first Trans support group meeting.
The meeting was disrupted then abandoned because of protest action.
This causes a lot of distress especially for my acquaintance as she has been at the forefront of a lot of feminist political action. Doubly so as there were a lot of familiar faces amongst the protestors.
To confront vulnerable people seeking support doesn't sit right with me and I favour direct action.
Iam not aware that SUFW is organising any such protests. I have not heard of this as a strategy. I don't endorse this.
Can you give more details of where it was. "A lot of familiar faces in the crowd" suggests it was a big crowd.
The only protests I am aware of was outside of pride where some lesbians were excluded.
But no I don't endorse protesting outside a support group.
By familiar faces I mean she felt betrayed by some who disrupted the meeting as they had been on the 'front lines' together on other activist events.
Was the support group held at a private home? Or in a public facility like a library? Or a health centre?
People do have a right to protest, but I don't support this type of protest as such.
Does anyone with good connections to SUFW know if this is something they have organised?
How did they disrupt the meeting gsays?
From memory, the teen got upset and didn't feel safe. There was hollering and chanting.
I am not certain whether the disruption occurred outside the meeting or if they came inside.
The bigger picture is a bit sad. From a crusty, distant lens looking in, I feel the teen's state of being is more about wanting some attention or love, less about gender dysphoria. I can only hope the underlying issues within the teen can be resolved in a less stressful, non-interventionist way
Absolutely gsays, the London protests etc affect vulnerable teens thinking they're hated & weird & unwanted.
I'm a father of 2 teen girls & all they're hearing is anger & hate & intolerance from the SUFW crowd, they don't want any part of it.
….is anger & hate & intolerance from the SUFW crowd,
Can you provide examples of what SUFW has said that indicates "hate" and "intolerance"?
And you really, really need to provide evidence because of potential future criminal charges should Certain Legislation is passed.
It is going to become very, very important that we clearly define what is mean't by "hate" n this brave new world.
Where do your daughters hear the anger and hate from I feel love? Is it on-line?
If you want to understand the overmedicalisation of GNC children more fully, start listening to detrans women, especially the lesbians. Anyone denying there are issues with this is ignorant.
Trans communities get funding from a range of sources. Look up the funding for orgs like Stonewall and Mermaids in the UK.
I know the people who started SUFW and most are leftwing feminists – a large number are lesbian. Ani O started out as what I’d call centre-left and it’s true she’s moved rightward. But she wouldn’t be the first person to find her commitment to left-wing politics wasn’t strong enough to withstand the hysterical abuse she received on social media when she first expressed a gender critical viewpoint, or the far worse abuse she received when she stepped up to act as the group’s spokeswoman. I disagree trenchantly with Ani on many levels but she has been abused and demonised in ways and to degrees that are so disproportionate, anyone with an analytical brain linked to their political conscience should ask why that is.
If you persistently misrepresent a person or a group – by use of hyperbolic rhetoric through to brazen lies – as being extremist rightwing; if all that comes out of so-called progressives on social media, and increasingly out of mainstream media, is the hyperbolic claim that SUFW are literal Nazis who want to deny the very existence of trans people – why would you be surprised when vulnerable young trans people say they are terrified of them?
If you demonise, and deny a group of women the right to speak, why would you be surprised if that group falls into the waiting arms of the ever-opportunistic right?
The only surprise here is how stupid the Nats seem to be in not realising the massive potential this has for fomenting divisions in the broad coalition of interests currently supporting the LP. Maybe they're keeping their powder dry.
When the euphoria of having been dealt a get-out-of-misogyny-gaol-free card has subsided a bit, maybe ask, who benefits from all this?
Here here TeWhareWhero!
Neoliberalism and the death cult intent on destroying all of life is laughing all the way to the bank.
thanks for doing the mahi today of unpacking all of this, very much appreciated
Ok, so that's confirmation that GC theory and Conservative Politics are linked ideologies.
Not a comfortable position for a lot of feminists to be in, I suspect.
Of course it's all Labour's fault…
What do you mean by ‘linked ideologies’?
Well, that's an extraordinary logistical leap you've made there. Are you illustrating my point that critics of GCF are more interested in hyperbolic rhetoric than in honest political discussion? Apologies if I have completely missed the point you are making.
I don't think you have missed the point I am making.
It's clear to me GCF ideology is very similar to Conservative Politics. They share absolutism on gender issues. The proof in New Zealand is that Ani O'Brien now works in the office of Judith Collins. That is no accident.
You say it's because Labour drove her away with their liberal politics. I say there is a symbiotic relationship now between the National Party and SUFW. O'Brien realises in joining the National Party she can promote her single issue cause, and the National Party realises they can use GCF issues to attack the government.
And what are they both actually attacking the government over?
Inclusion.
Are you saying that the National Party wants to abolish gender so that humans are free to live whatever gender expression they want? That National believe that women are oppressed on the basis of biological sex and that women's reproductive and other labour is appropriated by patriarchal societies to the detriment of women and the solution is to end both gender roles and patriarchal systems? Because I think you might want to run that past Judith to check and then do some reading on what GCF actually is.
In the meantime, try referring to Ani as GC when in reference to National, then you will make more sense.
(GC and GCF feminism are not the same thing).
Muttonbird would you consider reading my post at 3.2.2? That's what I am concerned about and it seems a few of the people on this thread agree. These are the issues or some of them, that has got many of us involved in this debate.
Again, my understanding is there are some people in SUFW who voted National, but more are on the left.
I have never suggested that trans or ethnic identies aren’t valid Sacha. I don't think gender critical feminists are suggesting trans have fewer rights than others. I think they should have the same rights as others, but not more. By that I mean that their gender identity shouldn't trump my rights as a biological women
Why is "sex" a required field on a Birth Certificate?
What does it actually denote?
When/If the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill is passed and a person can have the "sex" field changed, is this a once only opportunity or can a person, at a later date, change their sex again?
e
Just because govt agencies have conflated sex and gender does not mean we need to keep doing it.
That detail on a birth certificate is about identity, not about reproduction.
Your saying the infants sex is a component of their identity?
More that the sex a baby is assigned at birth (usually without chromosomal testing – on the basis of visible genetalia, which doesn't really work for intersex or gender diverse), provides a framework within which that child will be socialized. Their identity develops over time in response to the interaction of their genes with their social and physical environment.
If anything is personal information, it is your genetic profile, and other medical details. Why anyone else other than your doctor feels entitled to access to that information is beyond me. The move to change sex on birth certificate wouldn't be such a big thing if it wasn't needed to prove your existence so much.
This is not a comment.
The treachery of languages?
The sex of most babies is observed in utero.
I agree that the issue here is how sex is used by society to classify people. But knowing what the sex is is important and in nearly all humans this is observable before or at birth. This is not about gender identity. That's an issue that arises next.
GCFs argue that kids should be allowed to grow up free from gender norm constraints. As far as I can tell, GAs (gender activists) want to dictate the conditions under which gender is used by society, rather than freeing people from the constraints.
Sex is important, and informs medical choices. But it is also intensely personal. Arguably useful as a variable in medical research, but there would be ethical considerations and anonymisation of results in that.
The Gender Critical (some of whom are not remotely feminist) do not seem so very critical of gender to me, Weka. But then, they are unlikely to be much more of a single unified mindset than the trans community and its halfhearted allies.
However, this is Aotearoa, not (as one might think by a cursory glance at our current head of state); England. That's literally on the other side of the world! Many colonialists attitudes about the proper way of being human are still bubbling through NZ. Takatapui were an accepted part of Maori culture (as fa'afafine and leitis are for Samoan and Tongan), but long decades (/centuries) of whitewashing NZ through religious indoctrination and other forms of cultural cleansing have left them in an endangered position. I am glad Kerekere is there to represent us in parliament.
In any case, ethnic groups' customary practices are already protected in the HRA. Even if GC groups may find it easy to recycle lines from Conservative-ruled Britain, it is unclear why pakeha trans people (importantly, not just trans women) should be left unprotected against such sophistry.
But at least the GC do have a thicker veneer of civility than some trans averse people. Though I still don't like the war metaphors – they seem to foster a bunker mentality.
But, oh font of all wisdom, is it acceptable for a maori post-calonialist infant in NZ to be dressed in pink or blue?
…(some of whom are not remotely feminist)
What makes them 'not remotely feminist'?
Perhaps we should define 'feminist'?
Not all who are Gender Critical are female, let alone feminists. (some) Evangelical Christian pastors may be fully as absolutist in regarding sex as a necessary precursor to gender (if they adknowledge the distinction at all).
Like say the Superstraights (I won't link as they were too toxic even for reddit!) who had a similar kind of; transphobia with extra steps. The whole; "are traps gay?" sewer. At least GCFs are less rapey.
Don’t know where you get your ideas from about GCFs and GC people, but the left wing GCFs I know support gender non conformity and thus have no problem with historical cultural acceptance of GNC people. The large number of lesbian and gay GC people likewise are unlikely to have a problem with takatapui.
you appear to be arguing with something in your own thinking rather than what I am saying.
So if the medical professionals with hold their expertise, I wonder (not really) if the parents will be able to work the infants sex out and begin what socialisation they think is appropriate and natural anyway.
That detail on a birth certificate is about identity….
So a mewling, puking bairn emerges with it's gender identity fully formed?
With respect, Sacha…rubbish. "Sex" on a baby's birth certificate indicates biological sex…basically… that upon observation by a suitably trained person the infant's genitals indicate male or female. Correct in about 98% of instances.
…not about reproduction.
Of course not, silly! It's a newborn baby! So wrong to even think about the future sex -life of this child.
And only an arrogant fool would speculate as to how this child might express itself genderwise in the future.
although lets not forget that girl babies are born with the ova that will become the later generation if she has a baby 😉 And it's sex as well as gender that will largely determine how she is treated in society as she grows up.
Official identity documents are talking about observable social presentation – ie: gender. They have just been stupid enough to use 'male' and 'female' to describe it. But fill your boots if that's all you have to campaign on.
Oh dear, it seems the entire medical profession is doing it wrong because they keep recording the infants sex on their birth certificate. No doubt you have an improved procedure for them to use instead, which you will now be able to explain to us?
Like I say, fill your boots if you want to misunderstand what the information is used for. What they have been calling it is the problem.
It is exactly the same as the official transition from Race to Ethnicity.
Your the one claiming that birth certificates contain irrelevant information, which everyone should subsequently ignore (along with all the other markers of gender, e.g infants assigned name and biology). That puts the onus on you to explain how thats supposed to work.
Sheesh. Collect genders. Call them by the names for genders.
Collect sex as well. Call them by the names for sexes.
Use the latter for health and the other very few relevant situations.
Use the former for everything else official data is used for.
Good so an inch of progress then.
So if im a medical professional faced with a small infant just what do I put in the 'gender assigned at birth' box and how do I determine that then?
They have just been stupid enough to use 'male' and 'female' to describe it.
So, what is the correct way of describing it?
And are you trying to say that a person's birth certificate, the first ever identity document, should not record the sex of the person?
And are you also saying that the words "male" and "female" should no longer be used to describe actual, physical, biological sex?
We have had this discussion many times.
Indeed, you have, but it seems nobody is listening or they have very short memories (less than a day).
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-07-2021/#comment-1802606
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-07-2021/#comment-1802599
I have to accept your conclusion.
And it's Groundhog Day today here at The Standard.
Déjà vu all over again.
Just thinking out loud. What if self-ID on birth certificates and other documentation was an edited feature. That is sex at birth was still recorded, but also the change according to the individual.
In no particular order:
I'm a long time reader, first time commenter. It's absolutely astounding how left-wing men seem to have taken up the mantel in denying the ability of women to self identify as a class with protected characteristics. Nothing like reading Sacha patronisingly explaining to women how their views are invalid.
Prioritising gender over sex enables men to again dictate to women what rights they should have, and if they don't like it, they're the bigot. This is the compounded by the bizarreo claim that is in fact gender critical feminists who are the ones oppressing trans individuals. If anyone hadn't noticed, it's not as if the corporations, government (local and central) are supporting the right to protected sex characteristics, rather than the trans lobby. You only need to look at the co-opting of Stonewall in the UK and the attempts to silence gender-critical feminists to understand that they are the are in fact the ones that are being marginalised.
Minerals 100% agree. Welcome to the Standard!
I largely agree with this, but there is no doubt that many trans people are having a hard time in society due to transphobia (individual and systemic). It's possible to uphold the wellbeing and rights of both groups.
It's possible to uphold the wellbeing and rights of both groups.
Agree. But this is going to require mutual respect. And an acceptance of biological reality.
This is next to impossible when the Trans Lobby shouts "Transwomen are women!", the GCF say .."Hang on a minute…" and the Trans Lobby shout "TERF!".
True. It's also next to impossible with GCs running round shouting about men in dresses and grooming.
I feel like the person who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes, and all the people who had been admiring his new clothes were embarrassed about being taken in by the hype surrounding the emperor's outfits. A man in a dress is a man and will always be regardless of his (claimed) right to access women spaces, and what it says on his birth certificate. They must create their own spaces then they will be respected.
It’s a GC fail imo to reduce trans women to man in dress. It presumes that trans is one thing instead of a range of experiences. Obviously a TW wearing trousers is still a TW. Feminists can’t have it both ways, either we say presentation via gender norm clothing doesn’t matter or it does.
and if we insist on making charicatures out of TW we can hardly complain about being written off as terfs.
none of what I just said negates women’s rights to women’s space and politics.
I don't know how this works in but I respect James Morris wish to change to woman Jan Morris from fully functioning man. He took the hormones, had the op, went through the whole thing after a lot of genuine thought, and was one of the early changers.
Also Eddie Izzard has had a varied life as a comedian, being himself and dressing up as a 'stage' woman, with high heels, lots of makeup etc. Now in his maturity he wishes to stay in his woman role. I don't know if he has had the op, or taken the hormones. (Incidentally Jan found them rather tiresome.)
But since homosexuality became legal, the troubled minds of sex obsessed young people, stirred and shaken by first television, and films, and then the internet and social media, it has become a bizarre fashion, not a considered adult decision. I have heard some alarming things here, and met feminists who would have been on the lesbian side in the 1970s, often falling out with the heterosexual ones, often married. Then the guiding idea was to get equality of treatment, respect and wages and women then have noticed how successful they have been in much of this, wages still down. But then feminists were for strength, standing tall, going forward. Now the theme seems victimisation, and making a case for unfairness, coming from a sad, negative position rather than positive but with still a way to go, on both sides too.
You know I don't agree with hyperbolic rhetoric or abuse on either side or on any issue – but as someone who's been engaged with socialist feminism for over half a century and the transgender debate since the early 1990s, and having watched the on-line debate go from a gentle simmer to an insane boil since 2015, I can say the abuse and the hyperbole did not start with feminists (although Raymond's polemic served to raise the political temperature several degrees). I have no doubt that hiding among the pseudonymous accounts on social media are parties who, for predatory or vexatious personal reasons, or political ones, are interested in turning the heat up even further. People who contribute to that can hardly claim genuinely to have women's or trans peoples interests at heart. It's just too easy for the blokes who have inserted themselves into this – to point to the extremes of the GC movement and use that to label and demonise the whole of it. If they don't engage with the fact that there are a host of life long socialists and feminists who question facets of the current transgender orthodoxy – but instead choose to tar all with the same brush – that's being ethically and politically lazy. Or worse, it's evidence of an unresolved resentment of women – oh, but perish the thought that such a thing could be the case here.
One of the things occupying my thoughts today is just how many GAs really have no idea of what women are saying, of what is about to play out, or of how much this is tediously familiar for feminists. The more women understand that progressive men are literally positioning themselves against our interests the more solidarity we will experience with each other. Immensely grateful to the UK feminists who built the template for this.
A friend of mine was ruminating the other day upon the fact that one of her girlfriends had a dick, while the other was considering getting one and becoming a boyfriend. I listened to her for quite some time over a cuppa.
Conflating "no idea of what you are saying" with "no idea of what women are saying" is a conceit. Disagreeing with you does not mean disagreeing with all, or even a majority, of women (in the most gender-critical interpretation of the word, of course).
QED 🤷
that you decided as a politicised left wing man to #notallwomen me, even though it’s easy enough to parse from my comment that I was talking about gc women, instead of asking me what you might be missing, is exactly what I have been talking about. Men’s support of feminists is conditional, it’s not solidarity.
you’ve known me long enough to know I’m good with disagreement. What I’m not enjoying here is the massive gap in understanding. Seeing a left wing man reduce feminist perspectives here to an obsession with genitals suggests one if two things. That he doesn’t understand the politics he wants to argue against, or that he doesn’t give a shit and is happy to both misrepresent and marginalise. I was doing men here a courtesy that it was ignorance rather than sexism.
most of what I’ve seen from left wing men on Twitter in recent days is ignorance but am willing now to consider it wilful.
have a read of what I wrote about Stock’s book and good faith debate. Being able to disagree is dependent upon understanding the best interpretation of the oppositions politics.
We should be so lucky
No, when you repeatedly use clear language that apparently then needs to be "parsed" to pretend you're not othering everyone who disagrees with you (other women and the men who can apparently understand their position more than your position), that definitely needs explicit clarification.
Many left wing men are listening to women. Just not so much to the women who will apparently have Sean Plunket as a guest speaker.
"that definitely needs explicit clarification."
Then ask.
Obviously you are listening to some women, you're not in a monastery. But if you want to understand GCF, then imo you need to listen to and talk with GCFs, not liberal feminists. Liberal feminists are not good at explaining GCF. I see the arguments that many lw men are making against GCF and it's not disagreement, it's idiocy. If you make the effort to understand your opponent's position and then disagree, I will respect that.
Or, just keep listening to liberal feminists, and not understanding GCF, and watch the same shit fight war that is happening in the UK happen in NZ.
Yeh that's the thing, the feminists that i actually know are all staunch supporters of trans rights. Then i come on here and weka tells me that i am not listening to feminists and proceeds to tell me what feminists think. Support for anybody in politics is conditional on the quality of their ideas and the potential harm of those ideas.
Seemed pretty damned clear to me. How was I supposed to know what you wrote needed to be parsed through some filter to qualify what groups were actually being discussed.
Anyhoo, I'm still at work (and pissed off about it), and we seem to have reached the point of the script where we both accuse the other of not properly reading what we wrote and that we've been horribly misrepresented and how sad it is that the other won't take the time to listen to a position we've heard dozens of times before, so I'm going to take a break for at least an hour or two, maybe the day.
Respect!
@weka
I would like to see you try and tell Jan Logie that she is a liberal.
Sean Plunket, Not a guest speaker. Just attending the meeting McFlock.
have a good break McFlock.
Are you saying that Logie isn't liberal?
the irony there is that the Greens very effectively shut down women talking about gender critical politics, so fat chance of getting to say anything to her.
Ok, solkta, summarise for me in five bullet points what the gender critical feminist position is.
I'm not going to play your games weka, we have been round this too many times. The point is that you often say what women think and what feminists think when you are presenting just the views of some.
No Logie is not a liberal. That is another of your games, radicals think like you, liberals think like them. There was a really bigoted rant in the Green's mag that got canned. It was a shame that the editors did not pick it up and require it be re-written. Have you tried to talk with Jan?
Like Sacha and McFlock i've had enough of the BS and will be taking a break.
@anker:
My mistake. Mind you, if I were in wellington tonight I still would have preferred being in the crowd outside, rather than inside with the likes of him and apparently Jordan Williams.
@solkta, I was referring to GP members trying to talk about gender critical issues internally, although the removal of the article in the newletter was also problematic.
Yes Logie is a liberal, as am I. It's not all we are, but it's part of the picture.
If a woman who isn't a radfem or GCF has some beliefs aligned with GCF thinking eg around self ID, what am I supposed to call her other than 'woman'? Woman is a useful collective noun for referring to shared experience, it doesn't mean every woman is included. It's a given that there are lots of women who disagree with the GCF positions.
Likewise with the word feminist.
The thing about this debate is that the women who disagree with the GCF position aren't talking about feminism or women, they're generally talking about trans people and denying that there are any issues for women. I refer to them as GAs (formerly TAs). It's not that they're not feminist, it's that they're not actually advocating for women in that instance.
I haven't told you you're not listening to feminists, I've said there are left wing men arguing against the GCF position and don't appear to understand what it is. I suggested to McFlock that listening to liberal feminists wouldn't help with that. If you have a link to Logie explaining clearly what the GCF position is, I would actually like to see that (I like and respect her despite our differences on this issue), but it's still not my point. GAs misrepresent GCF positions, sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes as part of the war.
That could be a recruitment campaign for choice feminism.
How ironic then that the one commenter who pulled out of the discussion is the only one AFAIK who has not been hiding behind a pseudonym. We even have a name for this kind of hypocrisy on this site (see https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/#banning). Make of that what you will.
Weka 5.2 – this is in the first instance based on biology and the survival factor that accompanies the separation of genders. We are talking about the human brain development over thousand of years, facilitating the development of social groupings which in turn allowed the human race to develop to where we are today. Instinct should tell us what the successful continuation should look like.
Oh I've tried providing links to women writing about the philosophical basis of this without interpreting it myself, but the people speaking here have been too lazy or ignorant to read it and decide for themselves. Hoping more of you who do not normally comment have been.
And I have had a gutsful of this place being used to normalise speech like this.
https://twitter.com/StrayDogNZ/status/1415466174721052675
Funny how an organisation that opposes pile-ons is playing footsie with Kellie-Jay.
https://twitter.com/mimmymum/status/1355525072400875527
https://twitter.com/mimmymum/status/1225054354044006400
I agree Rachel Stewart is amping this up in a way that is unhelpful – ably assisted by those who oppose her – and I'm not going to give her a pass just because she's been in receipt of a mass of hateful abuse in the past. These are issues, the political dissection of which require a scalpel wielded by a steady hand and guided by a cool head – not people wielding barbed wire or glass encrusted baseball bats, or waving metaphorical shotguns. People on the left loved Stewart when she was using that trade mark heavy-handed wit to beat farmers about the head, now they loathe her. Politics is a fickle beast but it's an odd thing when two of the NZ white left's most reviled people are lesbians. We do live in strange times.
…but it's an odd thing when two of the NZ white left's most reviled people are lesbians.
This hasn't gone unnoticed. When recognized within the context of the history of women dragging themselves out from under the oppression by men, not at all odd.
Tragically.
SSDD
I’m watching the social dilemma currently and more and more thinking this will only resolve if we also take the debate off sm and into the physical world.
Yes, very easy to hammer something out on the internet that you wouldn't dare say to someones face, twitter facebook etc have allowed various groups of like minded people to form who are forever egging each other on and further entrenching there positions. Social media is dehumanizing people in many respects.
Your comment is spot on about coming off SM and the engagement needed in the real world.
A couple of the links featuring Posie Parker that Joe 90 posted made for unpleasant reading/watching. The motivation seemed to be more about extreme passion, dare I say, hate.
Two out of how many?
I mean, slater and the crop of fascist-wannabees are pretty reviled, Talley, Juco and most of the rest of the nat caucus… still seems like largely a sausage-fest to me.
Some of us have already done our own reading on both sides of the debate Sacha.
Yet have nothing to say about the existing body of feminist theory about gender..
Yes that's correct Sacha. I have nothing to say abot the existing body of feminist theory about gender.
Good. Let's keep pretending that the current kerfuffle is in a vacuum.
I agree. The more people read on the issues, the more they are persuaded by the gender critical argument. That's why gender identity activists try to shut down all conversation- their ideology just doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
….but the people speaking here have been too lazy or ignorant to read it and decide for themselves.
Don't agree with Sacha and/or the material he presents here = ignorant and lazy.
OK. Understand completely.
Said nothing at the time or since to indicate that you even read the link.
Sacha 12.48 It is exactly the same as the official transition from Race to Ethnicity.
It definitely is not. And I see it is impossible for you to stop your antagonism about it.
FWIW, in contrast to a few other commenters here, I firmly believe that for some time now Sacha has been trying hard to engage in good faith and have a genuine but robust debate on this topic and Sacha’s comment history supports this notion, IMO. You seem to confuse criticism and disagreement with antagonism and I’d have thought you would know better.
I note that you refused to engage with Sacha’s point on the comparison with “the official transition from Race to Ethnicity”, i.e. you’re avoiding genuine debate, which is your prerogative but also ironic because usually you’re a strong advocate of intellectual rational debate.
Anyhow, Sacha will no longer discuss the topic, which may be good for some but does not bode well for the debating culture here on The Standard, as I consider Sacha one of the better commenters here and of high integrity.
I'm not debating about the matter of being able to assign one's chosen gender at will on a birth certificate and legally assume that gender, because it isn't open for debate in my view.
and SUFW (Stand Up for Women) is not a TERF organisation I am told. And TERF means – trans-exclusionary radical feminist – for those who have been thinking about the ongoing political problems that are so boringly ongoing, poverty, child illness, lack of health care, lack of this and that which are needed and could be expected in this modern age.
‘kay!?
It's almost like these people volunteered to contract covid.
/
The county's medical services director, Dr. Christina Ghaly, told the Board of Supervisors Tuesday that none of the county-operated hospitals have admitted a single COVID-19 patient who was fully vaccinated.
"Every single patient that we've admitted for COVID has been not yet fully vaccinated, and that's hard for the health-care workers to see,'' Ghaly said. "They've spent hours, effort, energy trying to care for patients, and at this point this really is a preventable illness, a preventable infection.''
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/coronavirus/southern-california-coronavirus/covid-coronavirus-infections-los-angeles-county-vaccine/2637613/?
Happy Bastille day!
As they say in Gilead
This sex stuff is actually an attack on humanity and goes beyond correcting imbalances that have long existed between men and women. It combines so many doubts and uncertainties and losses through tech and piratical adventuring including wars, it has gone OTT.
Calm down, don't be captured by the hysterical and historical, and rely less on laws which are gradually becoming swingeing, and instead, getting to know about each other's cultures as a regular classroom period at school, for the first step. Teach about philosophy rather than religion, teach about self-image and personal capability and self-respect. Don't leave it to parents to pass on their half-masticated tasteless titbits that lodge and grow in children's brains until virtually embedded.
Address the needs of people being impacted by others in society, which would include both the angry, abusive and instigators and those affected by those behaviours.
But lazy governments who talk democracy, fairness and equality, and don't even try for equity, are satisfied with a public stirred up that can be manipulated by a word or sentence, while other important matters are ignored. And then criminalise the perp or drop heavy financial costs on them, usually poor people. And that shows that government is concerned about it! They don't want to stop thinking with their bottoms and as they remain firmly fixed in their comfy chairs, no light or air ever falls on what passes for their thoughts.
To take a step away from our ravaged human culture, here is a comedy that might let people switch off the Outrage Button for a while. A six-part series with laughs about five women, including four Muslim, all non-white, trying to form a successful musical band in We Are Lady Parts.. It's streaming on Neon and Sky Go.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/stuff-to-watch/300351564/we-are-lady-parts-neons-entertaining-and-endlessly-hilarious-new-uk-sitcom
Na, sex stuff is only an attack on humanity if it is without consent ..
Once upon a time, safe women's spaces meant places where no one could be openly lesbian because other females might be sexually insecure. So the special one was the only openly lesbian female at Yale University Graduate School.
Then came the TERF'S, women insecure about those not born biologically female in women's spaces (which began with hetero sexual right wingers who support marriage between a man and a woman). And some lesbian women (who had been active in feminist causes, including women's refuges) supported the cause. But the special one (who claimed the best idea man had was God) was now openly transgender.
But others also openly lesbian did not come out as transgender, they remained lesbian cisgender, and yet were more openly in support for the breadth of the rainbow cause than the chosen one.
So they tried to de-platform the chosen one for being anti transgender (those identifying as women but were born male) – to be fair the chosen one annoyed as many feminists as she could before she became transgender and did the same to them.
To quote a cisgender male who was also to annoy people of the cultural group he was born into "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a transgender lesbian to please everybody" (something about having too rich or fine a taste in flesh).
Then came the queer friendly feminist cisgender female solo parent who created a character who rebelled against her creator, with these magical words "Trans rights are human rights”.
So many are betrayed by what they create. But it always begins with a woman giving birth or one born to a woman writing something on some platform.
We create our own cultures SPC, or have them forced on us despite our wishes or expectations.
So our experience of 'humanity' is always affected by the current beliefs and practices. But as you say it always starts with a woman giving birth, and preparing for that happening is something the body does involuntarily. This should be acknowledged and indeed should be revered, both by others and the female herself.
Sexuality is usually expected to be enjoyable, but if women and men take sexuality too lightly, the life force inside each of us is not acknowledged, and I think we become neutered mentally; which is different from undergoing vasectomy or permanent contraception.
SPC Once upon a time, safe women's spaces meant places where no one could be openly lesbian because other females might be sexually insecure.
What would be involved by being open lesbian? Holding hands, kissing each other, for instance? That surely would not upset other women who might be 'sexually insecure'. There is an expectation that explicit sexual behaviour be done in private. That isn't unreasonable is it?
You must have missed the time when women were supposed to conform in how they appeared (high schools still do this to a degree).
The March for the Right to Pollute New Zealand's Waterways
https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/125732953/enough-is-enough-canterburys-rural-mayors-lend-support-to-rural-protest
Presumably this fellow will be bawling loudly at the front of the march….
https://www.rnz.co.nz/assets/news_crops/41536/eight_col_20170904_083133.jpg?1504474292
Yes, it is for the right to pollute our waterways.
I actually emailed those mayors to explain themselves, but they came back with obtuse answers.
I cannot find any example where rolling back water quality regulations leads to clean water.
[please stick to one e-mail address here, i.e. the one that has been pre-approved]
Hipkins needs to put his ass kicking boots on, and tell the MOH to sort out their shit before giving him a graph to release. Does no one there actually sense check or proof read? How embarrassing.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300357755/covid19-baffling-graph-showed-twice-as-many-second-vaccine-doses-as-first
More embarrassing imo are the machinations behind the scenes to avoid responding to oia requests… Sir Humphrey would be proud.
Absolute muppets
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-baffling-graph-shows-twice-as-many-second-vaccine-doses-as-first/73DGRUQ2BY5R5YXOKTFIK5BD5Y/
Since I have mentioned it a couple of times, I figured I should put the link up now that it's in the 'paper'.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/125747793/emergency-department-nurses-issue-notice-to-fix-workplace-safety-risks
Enough imported bullshit.
https://twitter.com/BTohiariki/status/1415419780291432452
Keep it up national as the electorate isn't driven as much by the MSM memes and tricks of the past anymore.
They also know how to use the web to see where your ideas come from as a guide to where you're going.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/george-w-bush-warns-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-will-have-unbelievably-bad-consequences/QMSN3FNZR3RCF6MJYLEAJXWGIU/
George W Bush in response to Joseph Biden saying the USA was not in Afghanistan to nation build, that it was not a forever war.
Meanwhile in southern Iraq Shia militias (Teheran approved hit lists) are killing secular women – as was reported by the BBC in late in 2020 before Biden became POTUS.
This story is now not compatible with Biden's policy to return to the nuclear deal with Iran while continuing the Trump Pompeo line of using human rights as a stick to beat China with (ya can see how BBC plays the game and became complicit in the WMD story in 2002).
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/whoseatingnewzealand/446839/nz-has-reached-peak-milk-fonterra-cfo-warns
Peak milk. That's an interesting idea. What else are we at the peak of, and might hope to see return to a more balanced level? And not balancing on a tightrope either.
WTF have the cops got to do with this?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125760782/mobled-rehab-will-only-line-the-pockets-of-gang-leaders–police-association
Cahill has always seemed like an idiot and this confirms it. He needs to know to stay out of things that don't concern him.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/15/food-strategy-calls-for-3bn-sugar-and-salt-tax-to-improve-uks-diet?utm_term=e35dd465a759411eb9ab1291dca12bc2&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email
If they can do this in Boris’s Britain, why can’t we here?
Sugar tax is a silly idea. Simply regulate the maximum allowed in any food or food type – that was originally in the draft WHO guidelines that manufacturers use – but didn't appear in the final report. Turned out later the conference to establish the guidelines was significantly funded by the sugar industry -hence the missing maximum.
Ban it completely in things like bottled water though – shouldn't be allowed to be called water if it has added sugar – or salt.
.
"The industry is furious at the guidelines, which say that sugar should account for no more than 10% of a healthy diet. It claims that the review by international experts which decided on the 10% limit is scientifically flawed, insisting that other evidence indicates that a quarter of our food and drink intake can safely consist of sugar."
I remember a NZ scientist was involved in writing the original report in 2000.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/apr/21/usnews.food
And not forgetting their long history of misleading the public that fat was the problem.
https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2016/09/13/How-the-sugar-lobby-paid-scientists-to-point-the-finger-at-fat-JAMA
"Sugar has never enriched anyone but slave traders, local landlords, industrial farmers, sugar barons, speculators, food corporations, PR consultants and professional politicians. No-one has ever traded their way out of poverty with sugar, and there’s no reason to suppose that they ever will. "
https://newint.org/features/2003/12/01/keynote-the-sugar-trap
The Sandflys are still telling shit to people about me and my Whano and fucking with me and my Sons employment. What they are doing is and has stuffed up my Whano future prosperity. Who cares we are just dum black Maoris in their books.
Ka kite Ano