Open mike 15/07/2022

95 comments on “Open mike 15/07/2022 ”

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1. Jenny how to get there 1

   15 July 2022 at 8:07 am

   First images from Nasa’s James Webb space telescope reveal ancient galaxies

   First images from Nasa’s James Webb space telescope reveal ancient galaxies
   The first full-colour image from Nasa’s James Webb space telescope shows the galaxy cluster ….

   Photograph: EyePress News/REX/Shutterstock

   Nasa has released an image of far-flung galaxies as they were 13bn years ago, the first glimpse from the most powerful telescope ever launched into space, which promises to reshape our understanding of the dawn of the universe.

   https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jul/11/nasa-james-webb-telescope-ancient-galaxy-images

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5cjAkWqz4Y
2. Sanctuary 2

   15 July 2022 at 8:20 am

   The most annoying thing about Christchurch spending what will inevitably turn out to be a billion dollars (fixed price contract my arse) stadium is as night follows day they'll come whining to the government for a bailout, and because the settler class of Canterbury are the most exceptionalist and entitled bunch of complainers and snowflakes in the entire nation as taxpayers we'll all end paying for the cost blow out.

   Another astonishing observation is how enthusiastic local business groups always are for billion dollar convention centres and stadiums, yet how the same business groups are always vehemently opposed to spending money on things like critical infrastructure, public transport and community services.

   It is almost like entitled rich people who have a big voice in business demanding the rest of us subsidise their recreational choices.
   • Anne 2.1

     15 July 2022 at 9:50 am

     It is almost like entitled rich people who have a big voice in business demanding the rest of us subsidise their recreational choices.

     

     And they are the same people who sneer at and criticise the government for not spending enough on housing, health and education – not enough nurses, not enough doctors, nor enough teachers… and so on.

     A billion dollars would go a long way to build more houses, more hospitals, more schools and train more staff to operate them.
     • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1

       15 July 2022 at 10:36 am

       The Tron has been bypassed.

       Hurrah!

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/129283124/hamilton-section-of-waikato-expressway-open-to-traffic

       I wonder; What if government instead of subsidising private transport and carbon emissions by building more and more motorways put that money into public transport instead?

       Would central government support for Efeso Collins plan for free public transport become more viable?

       Could the whole of the public transport fleet. (buses and trains), be converted to electric?

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/129234357/southern-hemispheres-first-converted-electric-doubledecker-begins-auckland-trial

       No urgency now. Not!
       • Anne 2.1.1.1

         15 July 2022 at 11:31 am

         The Hamilton expressway was the brainchild of a National government.

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waikato_Expressway

         In 2009 the Waikato Expressway was announced by New Zealand's minister of Transport, Steven Joyce, as being one of seven "roads of national significance".

         Once a project is underway it has to be completed.

         According to a poll published a day or two ago, Efeso Collins is now the front runner for the Auckland mayoralty. That would suggest that his plan to make public transport free for everybody is being well received.

         He would be a 'breath of fresh air' for Auckland, but be rest assured his opponents will be working overtime as we speak… dreaming up scandals and misdeeds he never committed. Will the MSM correct the record? Some might but most won't.
         • Jimmy 2.1.1.1.1

           15 July 2022 at 4:08 pm

           As long as Leo Molloy doesn't get in.
         • DavidJ 2.1.1.1.2

           15 July 2022 at 4:16 pm

           Efeso is 'Goff lite' and would be a disaster for Auckland. The city needs someone independent who can stand up to central government without party allegiances and endorsements coming first.

           [I don’t want you continue to wage an astroturfing campaign against one of the mayoral candidates in Auckland and/or astroturfing in general. Join your other aliases in the sin bin until one month after the Local Elections; only one of your many usernames will be allowed back then here – Incognito]
           • Incognito 2.1.1.1.2.1

             15 July 2022 at 9:45 pm

             Mod note
       • DavidJ 2.1.1.2

         15 July 2022 at 4:30 pm

         "Would central government support for Efeso Collins plan for free public transport become more viable?"

         Unlikely. Free PT in Auckland would cost the city around $210m each year, which would mean significant rates rises. Not only that, the policy won't reduce greenhouse gas emissions because transport is inside the ETS.
         • KJT 2.1.1.2.1

           15 July 2022 at 5:11 pm

           You prefer billions to pay for extra roads, instead?

           And. Less car use will reduce Greenhouse gases, in reality. Not the monetary fantasy that is the ETS.
         • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1.2.2

           16 July 2022 at 1:19 pm

           DavidJ

           15 July 2022 at 4:30 pm

           ……Free PT in Auckland would cost the city around $210m each year,

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/127837383/auckland-mayoral-race-efeso-collins-makes-free-public-transport-his-big-policy

           Hi David I went to the embedded link in your comment, I could not find anywhere where it said, that Free PT would cost ratepayers $210 million each year.

           But I did find this;

           "…..fare revenue was worth more than $150 million a year, and an earlier Auckland Transport assessment was that extra demand would cost $60m to meet."

           I am guessing here, that to try and make your case against Free PT, you have deliberately conflated the two figures together. (In some circles this would be called 'creative accounting').

           Fare revenue has no relation at all to the cost of running the system. It may cost more, it may cost less.

           I might also remind you that with Free PT the $160 million in fare revenue would stay in PT commuters' pockets, instead of filling the pockets of Auckland's totally privately owned bus companies, this $160 therefore represents a loss to PT commuters and the city. A loss which would be returned with Free PT.

           Even if we took your conflated combined figure of $210 million, for Free PT at face value.
           If public transport was run as a single payer public service, instead of a profit making private enterprise, that figure could be considerably less. Getting rid of all the fare enforcement and collection infrastructure and bureaucracy, would be another cost saving to the commuting public, not having to fish around for cards or cash, would also make PT more convenient to use.
         • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1.2.3

           16 July 2022 at 2:31 pm

           DavidJ

           15 July 2022 at 4:30 pm

           "Would central government support for Efeso Collins plan for free public transport become more viable?"

           ….the policy won't reduce greenhouse gas emissions because transport is inside the ETS.

           Hi David, I don't get this last one. Could you expound on it a bit?
           • Incognito 2.1.1.2.3.1

             16 July 2022 at 3:11 pm

             No, he can’t and he won’t because he’s been banned for astroturfing on this site. I loathe dishonest commenters.
             • Jenny how to get there …

               17 July 2022 at 12:31 am

               That's a shame, because I was digging around on Te internet I found this.

               What is significant about this report is that not only would free public transport, be good for commuters wallets, and good for the climate, it would save lives. Every human life saved is precious beyond cost. But if we were looking at lives saved on a purely economic basis. Rounding up the figures, every road death costs the economy almost $4 million and every major injury costs us almost three quarter million dollars.

               This report points out, that PT funding, is a major determinant of PT usage, articulated by the government in the GPS. ie greater PT use requires govt. buy in.

               The role public transport can play in Safer Journeys

               ….PT is generally considered a safe form of transport. For example, in New Zealand, passengers in cars and vans are seven times more likely than bus passengers to be killed or injured in a crash (for the same time spent travelling), indicating that bus travel is comparatively a very safe mode of travel for passengers….

               …… Safer Journeys does not actively try to improve safety by increasing PT’s modal share on the basis that it is safer. Instead it leaves PT funding, which is a major determinant of PT usage, to be determined by other urban transport considerations articulated by the government in the GPS.

               10.3.1 Social costs

               The MoT publishes social costs of crashes and crash injuries each year. These are disaggregated for urban and rural areas.

               The relevant urban figures for 2014 are (MoT 2015c):

               • fatal injury: $3,982,000

               • serious injury: $730,000

               • minor injury: $71,000

               https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/research/reports/581/581-the-role-public-transport-can-play-in-safer-journeys.pdf
         • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1.2.4

           17 July 2022 at 9:49 am

           Hi David, if you are still reading this.
           I am sorry you could not expound on your claim that PT, "won't reduce greenhouse gas emissions"

           But you might be interested in this.

           It seems that greater PT usage also saves lives. To your argument that Free PT is too expensive, (I admit that I haven't done the cost/loss balance).
           But it seems to me, that the economic cost of all these tragic deaths and terrible injuries needs to be added to the balance sheet as well.

           From the report:

           PT is generally considered a safe form of transport. For example, in New Zealand, passengers in cars and vans are seven times more likely than bus passengers to be killed or injured in a crash (for the same time spent travelling),

           ….public transport as a safe and affordable alternative to car travel. We recognise, however, that safety is only one factor in optimising the mix of private and PT; cost, convenience and environmental impact must also be considered.

           https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/research/reports/581/581-the-role-public-transport-can-play-in-safer-journeys.pdf
           • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1.2.4.1

             17 July 2022 at 9:57 am

             P.S And dare I mention the cost of traffic congestion?

             In Auckland alone, it estimates the city's congestion costs $1.25 billion a year in lost productivity.

             Traffic congestion costs NZ billions – report | RNZ News

             When you put the social and economic cost of all the preventable grief, injury and death together, with the cost of traffic congestion, caused by private car use, Efeso Collins case for Free Public Transport starts to make a lot of good social and economic sense.

             It can’t come soon enough.

             All those concerned about social justice and the environment, need to get behind Efeso Callin’s bid for Mayor of Auckland
   • Populuxe1 2.2

     15 July 2022 at 10:30 am

     On the other hand democratic process was followed through polling and submissions, it carried across socioeconomic groups, and people are really sick and tired of being stuck in limbo for a decade with only a cleared plot of land to show for it. Closure was needed.
     • Jenny how to get there 2.2.1

       15 July 2022 at 11:54 am

       Citation?
       • Populuxe1 2.2.1.1

         15 July 2022 at 3:55 pm

         Young, men more likely to want to pour millions into progressing Christchurch stadium | Stuff.co.nz
   • Visubversa 2.3

     15 July 2022 at 2:04 pm

     Yes, we have seen exactly that with Eden Park. Despite being owned by a private Trust Board, it has a gargantuan appetite for public funds – and the political clout to extract them.
     • Belladonna 2.3.1

       15 July 2022 at 4:45 pm

       EP is also very subject to capture by (wealthy) local residents – including Helen Clark – who don't want their lives disrupted by actually using the venue as a venue. Which makes it difficult to make money….

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/123290359/eden-park-concerts-helen-clark-opposes-home-invasion-of-noise

       https://m.facebook.com/CheckpointRNZ/posts/helen-clark-says-shes-opposed-to-a-charity-concert-at-eden-park-just-400m-from-h/2129311180644640/

       We've just seen the pearl clutching over school balls (I don't know why EP would be a good venue – but apparently it is) – resulting in the Trust Board (who seem to know which side their bread is buttered) cancelling the events.

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/aucklands-eden-park-no-longer-hosting-school-balls-following-disruptive-behaviour/FQ7AAPZAX5DV5R2PJV6SNZV3V4/

       Perhaps the council should zone it for intensive housing – it's bang in the middle of the desirable zone – and see how the pearl clutchers like that solution.
       • Visubversa 2.3.1.1

         15 July 2022 at 5:53 pm

         That so called "charity" concert was a less than honest attempt to get around the then rules on concerts and the whole thing collapsed when people found out that there was not even a working prototype for the incubators. Eden Park has always said that if they get "just this last demand for more whatever", or " just this ratepayer or taxpayer handout" they will not come back for more. That has been proven false half a dozen times. I would certainly re-zone everything around it for higher density, give the locals the benefit of the increase in land values and enable new developments with better noise attenuation. I live 800m away from the Park. Never been to a game – tried in 1981 but the cops would not let us in. Viva Mark Jones!
         • Visubversa 2.3.1.1.1

           15 July 2022 at 10:35 pm

           Marx Jones – sorry fumble fingers.
     • Craig H 2.3.2

       15 July 2022 at 5:20 pm

       The trust was set up by an Act of Parliament, up to 9 trustees are appointed by the Crown (5), Auckland Cricket Association (2) and Auckland Rugby Union (2), and it is a charitable trust with the purposes of maintaining a venue/ground for cricket, rugby and any other events for the benefit of the Auckland region, so it's not what I think of as a private trust.
       • Visubversa 2.3.2.1

         15 July 2022 at 5:54 pm

         The Crown reps were put on the Trust after one of the more expansive Government handouts.
         • Craig H 2.3.2.1.1

           15 July 2022 at 7:38 pm

           That was required to host the Rugby World Cup – without it, we didn't get the tournament.
   • gsays 2.4

     15 July 2022 at 2:32 pm

     I agree with yr $1B.

     In the fullness of time and lots of corporate language, advisors and experts will get well paid and bear no responsibility.
   • Michael Blaxall 2.5

     15 July 2022 at 3:00 pm

     Its because rich people pay the bills so expect some action
   • Corey Humm 2.6

     17 July 2022 at 3:35 pm

     Am I a rich person?? I want the stadium built and so does 70% of this city.

     The earthquake hit just as I hit 18 I've never not had to go to another city to watch a concert or major game.

     Young people want a stadium bad and we're going to be the ones paying for it. Read the room

     Delaying would make it cost more.

     Just get on with it.

     Chch is a city of nearly half a million and growing rapidly if ya want young people to stay in the city you're going to have to have things like this

     It's been 11 years of utter horrible bollocks and the city has been through enough let people have some fun

     The left makes out only rich people want to go see an all blacks game or a concert.
3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

   15 July 2022 at 8:45 am

   The danger of stadium costs, a Dunedin study

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/the-danger-of-stadium-costs-a-dunedin-study

   Rugby has reiterated it will not contribute financially to a new stadium in Christchurch.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/rugby-says-no-funding-chch-stadium-cost-blowout

   Sanctuary, Yep…well remember the battle in Dunedin. And very notable the RUGBY not interested in funding !
   Despite their Special Pleading. incl one Richie Richie Richie ..Mcaw . (John Keys special mate )

   ChCh ratepayers…I feel sorry for you.
   • Ad 3.1

     15 July 2022 at 9:05 am

     It's not the CAPEX that gets you, it's the OPEX.

     Everyone touting a fixed price for the build contract manages to neglect talking about the bills that truly gets your ratepayers really bleeding:

     • fully funded depreciation of over 5% a year on $600m
     • direct subsidising the operation including: free parking, catering, security, utility bills, rates, utility upgrades, tech upgrades, salaries for staff to attract and run events
     • indirect subsidising the operation: wear and tear on surrounding civic assets like roads, public transport subsidy for each event, city marketing, accelerated utility upgrades

     Pour the next several years of rate increases into the foundations one wheelbarrow at a time.

     Note the Auditor General just came out saying it will be $5.5b for Auckland's City Rail Link, and we've still got 3 years of world events and inflation before it even opens. It works out about $1.5m for every metre of track And that's before you get to the OPEX.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2

     15 July 2022 at 9:26 am

     While many have hailed the decision to build the multi-use area as a long-awaited economic win for the region, others have warned against gold-plating the central city at the expense of struggling suburban households and other pressing council work.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/470966/christchurch-stadium-pressure-will-fall-on-next-council-to-work-out-finances

     Gee, Bread and Circuses comes to mind ! Just go look at under privileged ChCh . Brighton etc….

     I spose they can always go watch the rugby…..
     • Populuxe1 3.2.1

       15 July 2022 at 10:31 am

       That would be Brighton that got the 4 million dollar public library and pier development would it?
       • weka 3.2.1.1

         15 July 2022 at 10:36 am

         Pier vs warm, dry, affordable housing… 🤔
         • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2.1.1.1

           15 July 2022 at 11:56 am

           And RUGBY/event Stadium even moreso !
           • weka 3.2.1.1.1.1

             15 July 2022 at 12:18 pm

             Building stadiums at this point in history is like the fall of the Roman Empire. So much denial, covid, climate, ecology….
             • Nic the NZer …

               15 July 2022 at 12:20 pm

               The Romans still have their stadium don't they?
               • arkie …

                 15 July 2022 at 12:26 pm

                 They also had bread to accompany the circuses.
                 • weka …

                   15 July 2022 at 1:07 pm

                   heh.
               • Leaps …

                 15 July 2022 at 12:35 pm

                 I'm pretty sure the Christchurch stadium will be under water in a lot less than 2000 years. More like 100 years given the every increasing CO2 levels. It'll make a nice open air swimming pool 😉
                 • weka …

                   15 July 2022 at 1:04 pm

                   niche hobby, looking at infrastructure and seeing its repurpose as tshtf.
               • weka …

                 15 July 2022 at 1:06 pm

                 In a manner of speaking. Tourism rules the world. As civ collapses there will still be people rich enough and stupid enough to want to visit and take photos.
             • Populuxe1 …

               15 July 2022 at 4:07 pm

               Based on what? I mean aside from your general loathing of humanity. Rome didn't "fall", it declined. Political structures rearranged themselves. The Eastern Empire lingered on another thousand years. People continued to do things and enjoy things.
               • weka …

                 16 July 2022 at 10:59 am

                 Please explain how spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a stadium trumps spending that money on climate transition when we know that climate is going to decline civilisation if we don't act now (and bearing in mind, we're not acting enough yet).

                 I don't loathe humanity, I loathe stupidity.
                 • weka …

                   16 July 2022 at 11:00 am

                   and yes, people will keep enjoying things, but we're already finding that people don't like expensive food and petrol so much and we're not even deep into the crisis yet.
         • Populuxe1 3.2.1.1.2

           15 July 2022 at 3:58 pm

           Community focus planned for New Brighton housing development – ChristchurchNZ.com
           • weka 3.2.1.1.2.1

             15 July 2022 at 4:02 pm

             what does affordable housing mean for them?
       • pat 3.2.1.2

         15 July 2022 at 10:43 am

         “For 30 years, the New Brighton community rallied for another pier to be built. The Pier and Foreshore Society had campaigned to save the original pier, and the group continued lobbying for a new pier. When NZ$2m had been raised, this was matched by funding from Christchurch City Council and a new pier was designed using reinforced concrete. The new pier was built in exactly the same location, and was officially opened on 1 November 1997. It spans 300 metres (980 ft), which makes it the longest ocean pier in Australasia.[1] The New Brighton Pier is held as the icon of New Brighton and later the icon of Christchurch after the 22 February 2011 earthquake that significantly damaged Christchurch's Cathedral. The pier is one of Christchurch's tourist attractions. Currently the New Brighton Pier is the venue of a number of events, such as regular skate on the Pier events and the annual Guy Fawkes fireworks display held on 5 November every year. The pier sustained some damage in the various earthquakes, which was exacerbated in the 2016 Christchurch earthquake. Repairs started in February 2017, took 16 months, and cost NZ$8.5m. New Brighton pier reopened again in May 2018.[4]

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Brighton_Pier,_Christchurch

         [Any comment with 10 or more links will automatically be held up in the Pre-Mod queue, so please limit the number of links in your comments.

         I’d suggest that you paste Wiki quotes as plain text to avoid triggering the trap – Incognito]
         • Incognito 3.2.1.2.1

           15 July 2022 at 11:08 am

           Mod note
           • pat 3.2.1.2.1.1

             15 July 2022 at 11:23 am

             K..would post wiki quotes as plain text if i knew how.
             • Incognito …

               15 July 2022 at 12:00 pm

               That’s easy enough! In the Text Editor that you use there are 2 icons at the top of the menu, a little T and a little W. They refer to Paste as plain text (Ctrl+Shift+V) and Paste from Word (Ctrl+V), respectively.
               • pat …

                 15 July 2022 at 12:10 pm

                 Thank you
             • Incognito …

               15 July 2022 at 12:09 pm

               I told you it was easy enough 🙂
         • pat 3.2.1.2.2

           15 July 2022 at 11:24 am

           Brighton Pier was a community led project, extensively fundraised for by the local community.
           • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2.1.2.2.1

             15 July 2022 at 11:55 am

             Oh right, Pat. There is that then.. Strike some of the Feelgood for ChCh council !
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2.1.3

         15 July 2022 at 11:52 am

         Hmm Ive been to Libraries in NZ and as a Library user, I always think they are a great Community Hub……however in winter quite sad the poor buggers that go there…just to be warm. Or sleep even. (poor Librarians have to be diplomatic)

         And I spose a Pier Development is where you could go for a long walk.?

         Anyway that is some ChCh money to Brighton. Sure would be great with some additional Councillor Input/Drive from there.
     • Stuart Munro 3.2.2

       15 July 2022 at 9:01 pm

       It will hit Dunedin ratepayers hard.

       The reason the Dunedin stadium was a mere debacle instead of a catastrophe is that it was able to secure a number of events post-quake Christchurch could not host.

       There will be no more of those.
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2.2.1

         16 July 2022 at 8:03 am

         Yep. Also gotta wonder…if a serious (more serious?) pandemic hits. An empty stadium?
4. Jenny how to get there 4

   15 July 2022 at 8:59 am

   Hubris

   noun

   hu·​bris | \ ˈhyü-brəs \

   Definition of hubris

   : exaggerated pride or self-confidence

   https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hubris

   Examples of hubris in a Sentence

   Russia has released passports made for the Citizens of Ukraine.

   Obviously printed before Russia’s invasion and takeover of Ukraine ran into the sand.

   People born in Ukraine have been entered as born in Russia.

   https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1542849072394108934?t=kMPfT8-1t7aOekU3L6BICw&s=19&fbclid=IwAR0yu2Iczra9XuEZbZbC36PI4KXshQ8tHxs_IJPym70XilsKrgS1rW0R01E
   • Jenny how to get there 4.1

     15 July 2022 at 10:10 am

     It occurs to me that if Kyiv wanted to poke the borax at the Kremlin, they could issue Ukrainian passports to Russian citizens who want them, stamped with 'born in Ukraine'.

     Who knows? Applying for one of these passports might be a light hearted way for Russian citizens to express their opposition to Putin's war.
     • mikesh 4.1.1

       15 July 2022 at 10:47 am

       From about 1860 to 1865 cities like Atlanta, Georgia, were not part of the USA. Instead they were part of the Confederacy. Kyiv's independence from Russia seems to have lasted a big longer, but may soon be coming to an end.

       Incidentally, hubris is activity which angers the gods, and attracts nemesis, However, on this occasion, if nemesis was aiming at Russia it seems to have missed the target and landed on Ukraine instead, given the destruction it's caused.
     • alwyn 4.1.2

       15 July 2022 at 11:02 am

       "a light hearted way for Russian citizens to express their opposition to Putin's war"

       Unfortunately there isn't any light-hearted way to express your opposition in Russia. Any protest at all seems to get very harsh treatment. Even referring to it as a "war" is punished. It is not a "war" or an "invasion". It is a "special military operation". Journalists who call it a war could be jailed for 15 years, as that is publishing false news about the military in Putin's Russia.

       https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729579/russian-law-bans-journalists-from-calling-ukraine-conflict-a-war-or-an-invasion
   • Blazer 4.2

     15 July 2022 at 10:16 am

     This is 'huger'!

     US President Donald Trump has said he recognises Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó as interim president.

     The announcement came minutes after the 35-year-old declared himself acting leader in Caracas on Wednesday.

     Juan Guaidó: US backs opposition leader as Venezuela president – BBC News

     Hey Jenny which is the only nation to use nuclear bombs on civilians-is it Russia,China or U.S.A?
     • Barfly 4.2.1

       15 July 2022 at 11:08 am

       77 years ago Blazer for the USA on that

       China Mao's great leap 45million dead

       Stalin 20 million plus dead

       /shrug
     • Jenny how to get there 4.2.2

       15 July 2022 at 11:13 am

       Blazer

       15 July 2022 at 10:16 am

       …..Hey Jenny which is the only nation to use nuclear bombs on civilians-is it Russia,China or U.S.A?

       A rhetorical question that needs no answer from me. We all know what the answer is.

       You might as well ask me which nation gassed 6 million Jews.

       For the one-eyed, the USA is the only evil imperialist power in the world' crowd, a more topical question.

       Which nation has threatened to use nuclear bombs in the current war?

       P.S. I don't expect an answer.
     • lprent 4.2.3

       15 July 2022 at 12:47 pm

       Kind of a pointless question.

       Just like this pointless question. I’m 63, sometime between the date that I was born and the year when my father and mother were born, some nation used atomic weapons on two cities, shortly after my parents started attending primary school. How old would my parents be today?

       Now what does that have to do with the great depression.

       /sarc

       Or could you tell me when atomic weapons were used on military? If you can’t then you’re a moron.

       /sarc

       If you want to ask sheep shagging questions – then at least don’t simply flop your dick out. Actually make some kind of point that adds to the debate rather than making you look like a simple minded fuckwit.
       • Blazer 4.2.3.1

         15 July 2022 at 1:11 pm

         Quite relevant to Jenny's relentless demonisation of Russia imo.

         She appears to have a very black and white view of…the world.
         • Brigid 4.2.3.1.1

           15 July 2022 at 3:45 pm

           But all the cool kids are demonising Russia.

           And lots want to be cool donjaknow
           • Macro 4.2.3.1.1.1

             15 July 2022 at 5:27 pm

             But all the cool kids are demonising Russia.

             Just like this one.

             

             https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/social-media-posts-chart-life-and-death-of-girl-in-russian-strike

             Cannot understand how you can make a comment like that above, and possibly think that Russia is not committing war crimes on a daily basis.
             • joe90 …

               15 July 2022 at 6:32 pm

               They lobbed precision munitions into a city 400km from the front lines to kill civilians as they were going about their mid-morning business.

               It's what the Russian military does when things don't go it's way on the battlefield.

               Circassians, Chechens, Afghans, Syrians, and now, Ukrainians.
5. Gosman 5

   15 July 2022 at 12:15 pm

   https://www.currentaffairs.org/2021/11/what-would-it-look-like-if-we-treated-climate-change-as-an-actual-emergency?fbclid=IwAR3Gcci4OYuAvs_695IembRvXxIqPrA6Q4jizQ54H1QT1ME0doGjCfzkEHA

   I really like that. What I like is the author or authors are honest about what they want to do. None of this waffle about just transition and so on. They are very specific about the steps they would take and the sort of World they want to see.

   Of course it is a complete totalitarian Hellscape which would lead to a civil war but it is at least detailed.
   • arkie 5.1

     15 July 2022 at 12:23 pm

     All of this makes it worth asking: What would it look like if we treated the climate crisis like an actual emergency? What would it take to keep global heating to no more than 1.5 degrees? The single most important intervention is the one that so far no government has been willing to touch: cap fossil fuel use and scale it down, on a binding annual schedule, until the industry is mostly dismantled by the middle of the century. That’s it. This is the only fail-safe way to stop climate breakdown.

     Jason Hickel, Current Affairs, 2021. My bold.

     "A totalitarian Hellscape".
     • Gosman 5.1.1

       15 July 2022 at 12:26 pm

       Did you read their policy proposals?
       • arkie 5.1.1.1

         15 July 2022 at 12:34 pm

         Jason Hickel is well known for his research in environmental economics and global inequality. That you find his expert opinions on more and equitable climate action unpalatable is unsurprising.

         I do agree that the Current Affairs piece is well worth a read.
         • DavidJ 5.1.1.1.1

           15 July 2022 at 12:55 pm

           Hickel is talking about a world in which the fossil fuels industry is "dismantled by the middle of the century". That's 28 years away. I guess it's technically possible, but I doubt the policy prescription required will be either politically or socially acceptable.
   • pat 5.2

     15 July 2022 at 12:40 pm

     The problem being that while the specific steps are imo about right the results are a dysfunctional world….consider the impact of the removal of Ukraine grain and (food) oils from the world markets and you have a taste of the problems….it isnt the wealthy countries most impacted but the developing food reliant economies…we have a world population and productive output barely supported by current energy production, the bulk of which is fossil in origin…reduce that energy and the system collapses (if it isnt already)….its too glib to say remove unnecessary fossil energy use (i.e. private motor vehicles etc) when the maintenance of the system largely relies upon that to function.

     We wasted the time to transition that we may have had.
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 5.3

     15 July 2022 at 8:02 pm

     At the same time, we need to scale down less-necessary parts of the economy in order to reduce excess energy demand: SUVs, private jets, commercial air travel, industrial beef, fast fashion, advertising, planned obsolescence, the military industrial complex and so on. We need to focus the economy on what is required for human well-being and ecological stability, rather than on corporate profits and elite consumption.

     We either do this in time, or we lose the chance and face extinction.

     There's no "complete totalitarian Hellscape" in any of this, compared to what WILL happen if we don't take active steps now!
6. Ad 6

   15 July 2022 at 4:14 pm

   Anyone else's workplace getting smashed with COVID and 'Flu over the last month?

   Truly mashing us.
   • Barfly 6.1

     15 July 2022 at 4:43 pm

     Avoiding it so far in the club I live at.
     • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1

       15 July 2022 at 6:19 pm

       Same Barfly and Ad, but family have not been so lucky. Two have been told their excess white cell count is part of long covid which has gone on for months now.

       Grant's work in Australia is struggling to get and keep staff. That may change now the covid assistance has gone.
   • RedLogix 6.2

     15 July 2022 at 7:35 pm

     Almost no-one comes into our office, so I find it a good place to isolate . I get lonely and bored, but so far the Sword of Damocles continues to hang on in there for us.
   • joe90 6.3

     15 July 2022 at 7:50 pm

     Had a mate stay Wednesday night. He was on an apology tour for the fabrication/coating outfit he works for, placating primary/food industry clients affected by covid related productivity problems.
   • Graeme 6.4

     15 July 2022 at 9:01 pm

     Waiting for the excreta to hit the air circulating device in Queenstown over the School Holidays.

     Most / all tourist business are having severe staffing issues, firstly getting staff who are willing to work in customer racing roles, and then keeping them healthy and able to work.

     Things were pretty tough in town last week, and the ZQN mountains closed their rental departments saying they were out of gear, but heard it was more staffing related. Best snow they’ve had for a very long time too.

     Next two weeks could get interesting. Really glad we're watching from the sidelines (home) until it settles down.
   • Belladonna 6.5

     16 July 2022 at 12:07 pm

     Yep. Had a constant trickle of cases since Omicron arrived – 1-2 off work at a time (workforce of around 100). Since end of June we're around 10-15 at a time (including me) – both Covid/Flu (workplace provides free flu jabs on demand) and household contacts. Some can work from home (assuming they're well enough) – but others have to take the leave – and it's almost impossible to replace them – not only can't hire people, but specialized work – you can't just walk in off the street – there's a significant learning/training curve, and trying to do that puts added pressure on the people who are there.

     We're communicating the reasons for delay with our customers – who are understanding – but it doesn't do much for the bottom line (if you're not invoicing the work, you're not getting paid)

     Case infections are almost certainly originating outside the workplace (so far) – i.e. the people coming down with Covid/Flu aren't directly connected inside the workplace, and most have a prior household contact with the virus/es.

     Hoping that this will quickly work it's way through the staff and give a decent level of immunity. But not optimistic, with the protection against Covid re-infection window now down to a month.

     So far, just one serious case (and we have some high risk people – over 70 and with associated health conditions) – not serious enough for hospital, but not bouncing back quickly – she has a history of bronchial conditions, and seems to get hammered by secondary infections.
7. Foreign waka 7

   15 July 2022 at 4:49 pm

   Doe anyone in this forum know whether the use of images for any purpose has been officially presented to the public? The article says that

   "A business case has been developed and approved,"

   Is biometric information not protected in NZ?

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/470882/internal-affairs-lawfully-allowed-to-use-facial-recognition-system-waka-kotahi
8. Anker 8

   15 July 2022 at 5:31 pm

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/470985/week-in-politics-andrew-little-s-bad-week

   this is a very scary read about what Drs are saying re the state of the health system
   • Poission 8.1

     15 July 2022 at 9:02 pm

     The Health systems globally are under pressure,with continued problems with Covid,(removing spare capacity) and a large backlog of selective surgery etc, becoming problematic for acute emergency.

     https://twitter.com/picardonhealth/status/1547565514578280450

     With increased expenditure the outcomes are not necessary improvements of increased life expectancy or increased quality of life as people age.

     https://twitter.com/andy23tran/status/1547244767733506050

     The increasing challenge with technology (and its complexity) is paradoxical in the Health sector as is increased investment.

     https://www.technologyreview.com/2013/09/05/252307/the-costly-paradox-of-health-care-technology/
     • Anne 8.1.1

       15 July 2022 at 9:48 pm

       It's an uphill battle trying to explain to some people that the situation re-our health services is not confined to NZ. It's everywhere, and many countries are in a far worse state than NZ. I read somewhere in recent days that Australia's hospitals are also stretched to the limit. I would link to it, but can't recall where I saw it.

       There is a moral dilemma here. If we were to lure health workers from other countries then we would be denying those countries the workers they desperately need themselves.

       And unvaccinated staff are not the answer. If they can show such poor judgement over vaccines and masks, then who can trust them to make sound judgements over other health issues.
       • Joe90 8.1.1.1

         15 July 2022 at 10:33 pm

         Of course it's Labour's fault.

         https://twitter.com/Kit_Yates_Maths/status/1547863954193494017
       • Poission 8.1.1.2

         15 July 2022 at 10:48 pm

         I read somewhere in recent days that Australia's hospitals are also stretched to the limit.

         Its been on ABC,Hospitals in Queensland (similar pop to NZ ) have slightly more patients for covid,influenza etc.Similar conditions with colder weather (record cold spells in QA) similar economic conditions,staffing shortages,cold housing,all playing out on the same songsheet.

         https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-15/covid-patients-fill-regional-queensland-hospital-beds/101242460
         • Anne 8.1.1.2.1

           15 July 2022 at 11:30 pm

           You could replace "Queensland" with "New Zealand" and it would be just as accurate an assessment.
       • arkie 8.1.1.3

         15 July 2022 at 11:06 pm

         Try luring anyone when this is how you're ranked:

         New Zealand has been ranked second-worst place in the world to move by immigrants, according to a survey.

         …

         In a resulting ranking of 52 countries – those for whom there was a large enough sample size – Aotearoa New Zealand ranked in the doldrums, at 51. It was beaten to the bottom by Kuwait.

         …

         The country’s poor showing was attributed to lower wages and high cost of living. New Zealand was the worst-performing country in the survey’s personal finance measure: 49% of respondents said their disposable household income was not enough to lead a comfortable life, compared with 28% globally. For general cost of living, 75% rated the country negatively, compared with 35% globally.

         https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/100-pure-rip-off-new-zealand-voted-second-worst-place-to-move-to
         • observer 8.1.1.3.1

           15 July 2022 at 11:43 pm

           Expats. Not citizens. The opposite, in fact. Many of the most comfortable countries for expats are anything but comfortable … for their own people.

           The United Arab Emirates made the top 10. Blasphemy and homosexuality are illegal, and the maximum penalty is death.

           If human rights don't matter, the survey is fine. Otherwise, it's a sick joke. Cheap maids are more important than democracy?
           • arkie 8.1.1.3.1.1

             16 July 2022 at 12:16 am

             You’re pretty damning of human rights and the state of democracy in Australia which is at number 9.

             And it was a reply to Anne’s comment about the difficulty of attracting immigrants (Not citizens, at least not yet) to fill our health worker shortage.

             “The cost of living is too high here in comparison to the salaries,” one survey respondent from Botswana said. An expat from India was concerned about the “growing divide between the rich and poor”.

             This cannot be reasonably refuted, we do have objectively low wages and a higher cost of living compared to our international analogues. Are these conditions just ‘the price of democracy’? Not sure it really works out well for expats, immigrants or citizens in general, personally.
         • weka 8.1.1.3.2

           15 July 2022 at 11:58 pm

           wtf is that photo, lol.

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