Open mike 15/05/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 15th, 2013 - 165 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

165 comments on “Open mike 15/05/2013 ”

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  1. mickysavage 1
    15 May 2013 at 6:23 am

    I asked the GCSB recently if I was one of the 88 kiwis that it may have illegally spied on.

    My specific request stated:

    “I note the GCSB is alleged to have illegally spied on 88 New Zealanders over the past few years. The allegation is contained in the Kitteridge report which somehow was recently leaked to the media.

    I can’t imagine why but I wondered if I was one of the 88. So pursuant to the Official Information Act 1982 and/or the Privacy Act 1993 can you tell me if I am on that list and if so what information you obtained about me?”

    I suggested on an open mike (http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12042013/#comment-617654) that others may want to do the same.

    I have now received my response and it is quite bizarre. They refused to confirm or deny if they had information about me. The section they are relying on says they don’t have to release information if disclosure would, amongst other things, be likely to prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand.

    It is likely (unless I am indeed an enemy of the State) that this will be their stock response but I am wondering if anyone has had a different response? Is my slightly elevated sense of paranoia justified?

    So Standardnistas, did anyone else ask for information about them and get a different response?

    • Colonial Viper 1.1
      15 May 2013 at 6:37 am

      Well, now your slightly elevated sense of paranoia seems to be catching 😉 in the USA authorities attempt to record every single electronic communication. Who knows what the full capabilities of systems like Echelon really are. Its only a matter of time before they implement the same philosophy here. Meh.

    • Jenny 1.2
      15 May 2013 at 6:51 am

      Is my slightly elevated sense of paranoia justified?

      mickysavage

      For your decidedly left views. Micky you are definitely one of them. If you ever do get your file, it will no doubt reveal that the illegal invasion of your privacy by the DCSB, to be quite extensive. Extending to family members, your friends, your work colleagues.

      After all, people like you, are a threat to the whole pyramid of money and power that sustains our well paid secret police snoops. And you must be watched very carefully.

      But don’t worry, this extensive criminal offending will end soon. It will soon be legal. Just like it was in East Germany.

    • Private Baldrick 1.3
      15 May 2013 at 9:05 am

      I was talking to Captain Blackadder because I was concerned about the same thing Mr Savage, my turnip and I might have raised the ire of the powers that be.

      He told me not to worry as even though the intelligence services are a bit of an oxymoron they probably aren’t so retarded as to be spying on smelly primates.

      I must admit that made me feel quite relieved.

      [lprent: That last statement got me worried – what exactly did you relieve yourself on? 😈 ]

      • Private Baldrick 1.3.1
        15 May 2013 at 1:41 pm

        My fatigues, Captain Adder said at least it saves on the starch rations.

    • karol 1.4
      15 May 2013 at 9:45 am

      Thanks for this info, micky. A worrying response, reinforcing the lack of public accountability by the GCSB.

  2. The Al1en 2
    15 May 2013 at 6:31 am

    Ground control to the Labour top
    Your leader is floating in a most peculiar way

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10883699

    Nice to know someone’s listening 😆

  3. The Al1en 3
    15 May 2013 at 6:38 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10883692

    “The red carpet was out last night at the glittering X Factor VIP party at the SkyCity Grand Hotel. Dress to impress was the theme and salubrious guests didn’t disappoint”

    “Hilary Barry (a not-so-secret fan of the show) rubbed shoulders with Sam Hayes, Ben Boyce, Colin Mathura-Jeffree and the cast from The Almighty Johnsons.
    Stars from the company’s radio division were present too, including resident shock jocks Jono Pryor and Dom Harvey”

    “Dominic Bowden – Matafeo ”

    Yep, NZ’s got talent. The C list to beat them all.
    Good work back slappers.

    • Paul 3.1
      15 May 2013 at 7:05 am

      And Rachel Glucina calls them ‘celebrities’. Obviously to her.\
      Unbelievable

      • Morrissey 3.1.1
        15 May 2013 at 7:44 am

        You’re throwing a massive party. You want it to be cool….

        YOU WANT: Richie McCaw, Anna Paquin, David Farrier, Jacinda Ardern, Russell Crowe, John Key, Jim Mora, Mary Lambie, Jane Clifton, Vicky Hyde, Cameron Slater, Raybon Kan, Brian Edwards, Stan Walker, Sir Robert Jones, Lorraine Downes, the Masterchef judges, Kim Hill, Mark Cubey, Ruby Frost, Natasha Bedingfield, and the Aussie comedian who plays “Chopper”.

        YOU’D SETTLE FOR: Peter Dunne, Aaron Gilmore, David Farrar, Tau Henare, Queen of Thorns, Lyn Prentice, The Mad Butcher, “millsy”, weka, Rosemary McLeod, Wendy Petrie, Martin Devlin, Daniel Bedingfield, Michele A’Court, the unsuccessful Masterchef contestants, Claudette Hauiti, Deb Webber, Kelvin Cruikshank, Rebecca Gibney, John Banks, Willie and J.T., Rachel Glucina, Karl du Fresne, Matt Nippert and Don “Brethren Cash” Brash.

        YOU END UP WITH: Hilary Barry, Sam Hayes, David Parker, Ben Boyce, Colin Mathura-Jeffree, the Almighty Johnsons cast, Murray Deaker, David Slack, Christine “Spankin'” Rankin, Gary McCormick, Don Donovan, Barry Corbett, Jono Pryor, Dominic Bowden, Te Reo Putake, Morrissey Breen, Populuxe1, Colonial Viper, Irish Bill, Brett Dale, Felix and Draco T Bastard.

        • lprent 3.1.1.1
          15 May 2013 at 8:07 am

          A. Lyn doesn’t want to get married and I suspect that taking my surname is going to be low on her list of priorities even if we did. She likes being named after a canine. So getting Lyn Prentice to anything will be difficult. There are none in the country that I am aware of.

          B. You could be referring to me – Lynn Prentice. However getting me to any party or event would be a coup in it’s own right. I find invariably find them intensely boring. Lyn usually winds up going to the ones she attends with friends.

          C. But it would be a meaningless result. I turn up at particular events where I want to get a read on something – once… Because there are no photos of me around the net, even those who know of me usually won’t know who I am.. This is intentional.

          D. So trying to get me to go anywhere is fraught…

        • The Al1en 3.1.1.2
          15 May 2013 at 8:10 am

          If you want to save the world, you get me, Sir Richard, Mike and Ricky.

        • Clockie 3.1.1.3
          15 May 2013 at 9:42 am

          Story of my life:

          Sob

        • TheContrarian 3.1.1.4
          15 May 2013 at 11:31 am

          No Contrarian?

          Man, I am a hoot at parties. You don’t what your missing.

    • Morrissey 3.2
      15 May 2013 at 7:13 am

      The C list to beat them all.

      That was an F list.

  4. phillip ure 4
    15 May 2013 at 7:11 am

    http://whoar.co.nz/2013/ed-finallyat-last-the-mainstream-media-economics-experts-start-to-hold-the-intellectualyfactual-total-discrediting-of-jeyenglishs-austerity-mantra-up-to-the-light/

    (reason for posting this link..this is an original comment on the key/english destroying news..

    ..news that seems to have passed most bye..(except @ whoar..)

    ..and i am gobsmacked that this news has been so ignored by most here in new zealand..

    ..given the key-govt-destabalising possibilities it holds..)

    phillip ure..

  5. Morrissey 5
    15 May 2013 at 7:11 am

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    ‹No. 7: Nigel Morrison, Sky City CEO

    MARY WILSON: How tough has the government been in these negotiations?
    NIGEL MORRISON Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.

    Radio New Zealand National Checkpoint, Monday 13 May 2013, 5:40 p.m.

    See also….
    No. 6: NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13052013/#comment-632598
    No. 5: Rawdon Christie: “
a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594
    No. 4: Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06052013/#comment-628803
    No. 3: John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06052013/#comment-628703
    No. 2: Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.” (TV3 News, 24 April 2013) http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25042013/#comment-624381
    No. 1: Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”‹
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19042013/#comment-621738

  6. millsy 6
    15 May 2013 at 7:44 am

    To news that the government is planning changes to state/social housing in the Budget comes the old movie saying – “I have a bad feeling about this”.

    Extending income related rents to those in community housing is, in principle, an OK idea, but this government will chop something to pay for it (ie state housing, welfare, etc).

    And this government has a hostility to public provision of anything, so I doubt that council tenants will be eligible for this.

    Oh well, just over 24 hours to go.

    See you all after the budget…

  7. freedom 7
    15 May 2013 at 8:19 am

    “Objectivity is paramount, says John Armstrong”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10883716

    funniest thing I have read in ages,
    will keep a smile on the dial as i head off to play with chainsaws for the day

    • Blue 7.1
      15 May 2013 at 9:47 am

      It’s funny how he thinks he keeps his personal opinions out of his columns, and that because some rabid hard right-wingers call him a Labour lackey this makes him balanced and middle-of-the-road.

      Ah well, he’s good for laugh, at least.

  9. Ugly Truth 9
    15 May 2013 at 8:52 am

    Also this from ITCCS:

    1. On February 25, 2013, a lawfully constituted Common Law Court of Justice found Elizabeth Windsor, Queen of England and Head of State of Canada and its churches, guilty as charged of Crimes against Humanity in Canada and of engaging in a Criminal Conspiracy to conceal Genocide. The same verdict found Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper guilty of the same offenses.

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 9.1
      15 May 2013 at 10:12 am

      ‘No, no!’ said the Queen. ‘Sentence first—verdict afterwards.’

      • Clockie 9.1.1
        15 May 2013 at 10:26 am

        But their wild exultation was suddenly checked
        When the jailer informed them, with tears,
        Such a sentence would have not the slightest effect,
        As the pig had been dead for some years.

  10. Lanthanide 10
    15 May 2013 at 9:11 am

    Good on Angela for getting the double mastectomy: http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/8673976/Pitt-praises-heroic-Jolie

    It’s a pity such preventative surgery and follow up reconstructive surgery isn’t available to 95% of Americans.

    • Matt 10.1
      15 May 2013 at 10:02 am

      Is preventative surgery of that sort available in the public system in NZ, or anywhere? Unless you’re paying for it yourself it seems like radical surgery when you do not in fact have cancer, would be a big ask.

      • Lanthanide 10.1.1
        15 May 2013 at 10:55 am

        http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/i-d-rather-alive-double-mastectomy-patient-5437153

        No indication that it was not done on the public’s dime.

        I don’t know one way or the other, but I suspect it would be covered in NZ for very high-risk patients, because it’s cheaper in the long-run than waiting for the breast cancer to develop. Not just in terms of the treatment itself, but for the individual: they can schedule time off work and get the operation done when it is convenient for them, rather than getting a cancer diagnosis and having to drop everything with short notice.

  11. Penny Bright 11
    15 May 2013 at 10:45 am

    Hi folks!

    Heard this?

    Was interviewed for Radio NZ Morning Report (played on air at 8am Wednesday 15 May 2013) on the failure of the GCSB to ‘confirm or deny’ whether I was one of the 88 New Zealanders unlawfully spied upon by the GCSB.

    (As was Val Morse – who got the same GCSB reply).

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2555103/gcsb-refuses-to-tell-people-if-they've-been-illegally-spied-on.asx

    Her Warship 😉

    Penny Bright

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    • ghostrider888 11.1
      15 May 2013 at 11:06 am

      Sailing the Se7en CSBees

    • Morrissey 11.2
      15 May 2013 at 4:17 pm

      I heard that, Penny. You were clear and very persuasive, as was Valerie Morse. I was concerned by the wording used by the 8 o’clock news on Radio NZ National this morning to describe the GCSB’s criminal activities. Noting that this organization has been spying on New Zealand citizens, the newsreader intoned: “It is currently illegal.”

      Next time someone shoots a policeman, I look forward to hearing the news-readers inform us that “murder is currently illegal.”

      • North 11.2.1
        15 May 2013 at 9:12 pm

        Yeah, you were solid Penny – “Show me the bloody filing cabinet and give me five minutes……” – (more or less what you said, agreed ?) – Great soundbite !

        Haven’t heard from BM or that fulla whose name starts with G. Must have been like a good blast from a can of Raid to the likes of them. On their backs…….Bzzzzzz.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1
      15 May 2013 at 11:37 am

      g888. The Oz Fed Govt has written a fiscally tight budget in order to gain confidence.

      Gain the confidence of whom is always the unasked question. Certainly not of the unemployed or the median worker.

      It is always pandering to the banksters, the investing class, the ratings agencies. It appears that they are the only true constituency Oz Labour responds to. They have no alternative thinking framework or vision.

      On a bigger scale, a massive reorganisation of our political economy is needed – paid employment and economic growth are things transitioning into the past. Energy depletion and the limits of our debt based money system which we have now reached has made sure of that.

  13. Poission 13
    15 May 2013 at 11:32 am

    3 x class flares on the sun and a cme in one day.

    http://www.spaceweather.com/images2013/13may13/cme_anim2.GIF?PHPSESSID=tov4qiab2jpfhf7qm4lohulqj0

    Not a good time to have investments in energy or telecommunications.

    • ghostrider888 13.1
      15 May 2013 at 11:42 am

      Interesting; I was just saying to my friend over Chardie yesterday why I collect hard-copy lit. and sounds; always.

      • Poission 13.1.1
        15 May 2013 at 11:53 am

        I would not have much confidence in reliance on either wireless or mobile communications,this risks are very high for 4g.

        As an aside I wonder if there is much importance in the spectrum sales in the budget.

        at present the Interplanetary Magnetic field is in its southern aspect ie shields down.

        http://spaceweather.com/glossary/imf.html

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.2
        15 May 2013 at 11:53 am

        I think its a mistake we no longer have wind up gramaphones…independent of power cuts, internet hiccups and hard drive corruption.

        Fragile complex systems

    • fender 13.2
      15 May 2013 at 11:53 am

      I’d be very surprised if private investors will lose out should the power grid get damaged. They will of course expect the taxpayer to pay for repairs, expect the company to borrow for repairs or just sell their 49% quick as possible. Money for nothing ‘investors’ only like to ‘gamble’ on a sure thing with a rigged deck.

      • Winston Smith 13.2.1
        15 May 2013 at 12:40 pm

        We’re not all like that, some of us are in for the long run as well as proactively ensuring the assets stay in NZ hands.

        • fender 13.2.1.1
          15 May 2013 at 1:01 pm

          Glad to hear there’s one who won’t mind foregoing their dividends if the grid gets whacked, how many others would I wonder.

        • The Al1en 13.2.1.2
          15 May 2013 at 2:29 pm

          “ensuring the assets stay in NZ hands.”

          Just as long as they’re not in the hands of those who already owned them before they were stolen by the greedy.

  15. veutoviper 15
    15 May 2013 at 12:10 pm

    Well – what recent events does this case remind you of?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10883787

    A senior Airways Corporation manager who won her job back after she was sacked for a boozy night when she got “lippy” with staff and gave one of them “the finger” has been awarded $7000 as a contribution to her legal costs.
    …

    She was found to have been unjustifiably dismissed and the company was ordered to reinstate her, although she was not awarded any payment due to her contribution to the situation.

    Today, Mr Dumbleton ordered the company to pay Ms Dumble $7000 as a contribution to her legal costs and a further $385 for administration costs.

    I wonder whether Gilmore has read this? And Riches, as employment law is one of his specialities.

    • prism 15.1
      15 May 2013 at 12:19 pm

      The names changed to protect the record I imagine?

      • veutoviper 15.1.1
        15 May 2013 at 12:38 pm

        LOL – I did not even notice the similarity etc. But no, no name changes.

        Here is the actual determination from the link in the Herald article

        http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/201320/2013_NZERA_Auckland_169.pdf

        • Jenny Kirk 15.1.1.1
          15 May 2013 at 3:55 pm

          And here’s another gem – more relevant to Aaron Gilmore perhaps.

          For all Employees Who Work with Rude Customers – An award should go to the West Jet gate attendant in Kelowna, British Columbia for being smart and funny, while making her point, when confronted with a passenger who probably deserved to fly as cargo.

          A crowded flight was cancelled after West Jet’s 737 had been withdrawn from service. A single attendant was re-booking a long line of inconvenienced travelers.

          Suddenly an angry passenger pushed his way to the desk. He slapped his ticket down on the counter and said, “I HAVE to be on this flight and it HAS to be FIRST CLASS”.

          The attendant replied, “I’m sorry, sir. I’ll be happy to try to help you, but I’ve got to help these people first, and I’m sure we’ll be able to work something out.”

          The passenger was unimpressed. He asked loudly, so that the passengers behind him could hear, “DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO I AM?”
          Without hesitating, the attendant smiled and grabbed her public address microphone: “May I have your attention please; may I have your attention please,“ she began – her voice heard clearly throughout the terminal. “We have a passenger here at Gate 14 WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHO HE IS. If anyone can help him find his identity, please come to Gate 14.”

          With the folks behind him in line laughing hysterically, the man glared at the attendant, clenched his teeth and said, “F….You!”

          Without flinching, she smiled and said, (I love this bit) “I’m sorry, sir, but you’ll have to get in line for that, too.”

    • yeshe 15.2
      15 May 2013 at 5:22 pm

      Mr Dumbleton ? Ms Dumble ? about a case that showed her the Dumbledore then :-))

  16. prism 16
    15 May 2013 at 12:17 pm

    I found in Jingo that Terry Pratchett has envisaged a strapped-for-cash economy in Ankh-Morpork. To a question of how that could be, ‘Don’t we pay our taxes?’ Lord Vetinari notes –

    Guild of Assassins – Gross earnings in the last year: AM$13,207,048. Taxes paid in the last year: AM$47.22 pence, and
    The Guild of Accountants – gross earnings AM$7,999,011. Taxes paid: nil. But, ah yes, I see they applied for a rebate of AM$200,000.’
    (I have left out the matter of the Hershebian half-dong as irrelevant.)

    And was Terry thinking of NZ perhaps? He writes that Lord Vetinari made the analogy – ‘Taxation gentlemen is very much like dairy farming. The task is to extract the maximum amount of milk with the minimum of moo. And I am afraid to say that these days all I get is moo.’
    ‘Are you telling us that Ankh-Morpork is bankrupt?’ says one of the nobles.
    ‘Of course. While, at the the same time, full of rich people.’

    Yes Terry Pratchett’s scenario has a lot of vision for us, if we care to study and absorb it. Makes
    more sense than much of the words around today.

  17. weka 17
    15 May 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Yesterday vto raised the perceived issue of some people talking about the treaty being accused of racism. S/he referred to a Natrad panel discussion on Constitutional review. Turns out the person that asked the question that vto was interested in was John Ansell, and Ansell asked the question in a hijacking for his own agenda kind of way. Which is probably why the panelists refused to answer.

    Here’s the conversation http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14052013/#comment-632878

    The bit about Ansell is here http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14052013/#comment-633276

    Sorry vto, but I feel that not only did you misrepresent what happened in the panel discussion, but you misled us in the conversation yesterday. Was that intentional? We talked about being explicit about our politics, but I don’t feel like you were. Now the question for me becomes, do you align yourself with Ansell, and is that the background context I need to understand your comments about Te Tiriti and racism in this country?

    • marty mars 17.1
      15 May 2013 at 5:42 pm

      Thanks for following this up weka. It sounded pretty strange yesterday – I thought maybe someone had cracked a weak joke and thus it is so – ansell is a weak joke and I’d be pretty disappointed if vto was a follower of his. I think a list of what vto wants to discuss regarding Te Tiriti may be a good option and I hope vto provides one. We need to keep conversing about the subject but somehow with some people it ends up being a too-ing and fro-ing around issues that aren’t issues at all, except for them.

      vto I hope you reply. My view of your view vto is that you think,

      1 the Treaty is historical and a new one needs to be drafted to take into consideration the multicultural aspect of NZ society.
      2 too much emphasis (money) is on tangata whenua and that they have received enough emphasis (money)
      3 Māori were the first here and that could be called indigenous but it is irrelevant in today’s world
      4 Māori are inherently violent and warlike
      5 No one represents the ‘white man’ who gets abuse and derision when they say something that others perceive as racist
      6 Non-Māori who talk about race get accused of being racist
      7 Māori are racist to ‘white people’
      8 Celts were here before Māori and taught them everything of what they know until Māori killed them all
      9 The chinese bought slave-wives here to breed with Māori
      10 Barry Brailsford doesn’t talk shit

      I know, there is one joke one, but which one…

      Anyway that list isn’t a dig at you vto – it’s to show that I listen to what you say/write.

    • Murray Olsen 17.2
      15 May 2013 at 9:03 pm

      The plot thickens.

  18. pollywog 18
    15 May 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Why is Fa’afoi not asking questions of Tolley?

    Isn’t that his gig as police spokesperson and isn’t he an ex hard nosed journo/press sec extraordinaire?

    Sitting there grinning like a churlish baboon isn’t a good look eh!…it’s bloody tolley for fucks sake.

    Hardly the sharpest hammer in the shed…

    http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/18501

  19. karol 19
    15 May 2013 at 3:11 pm

    Major oil companies raided as part of an investigation into price fixing.

    After the Libor bank manipulations, it’ll be interesting to see where this investigation goes.

    From the Globe & Mail:

    Three oil giants – Royal Dutch Shell PLC, BP PLC and Norway’s state-controlled Statoil ASA – on Tuesday confirmed that their offices had been raided in connection with the probe.

    Oil-pricing agency Platts is also under investigation. Platts, a unit of McGraw Hill Financial Inc., is the custodian of the Brent crude contract, the de facto world benchmark for oil prices and base for the hundreds of billions of dollars of futures contracts that trade off it. Crude oil prices in turn influence the price of gasoline and other fuels.

    The European Commission, the executive arm of the 27-country European Union, confirmed the probe but did not identify the companies by name. Nor did it specify how many companies were under investigation, leading to speculation that the probe may widen.

    Al Jazeera:

    The inspections took place in two European Union member states and one non-EU country, the EC said.

    “The Commission has concerns that the companies may have colluded in reporting distorted prices to a price reporting agency to manipulate the published prices for a number of oil and biofuel products,” it said.

    The EC also said companies may have prevented others from participating in the price assessment process, with a view to distorting published prices.

    Statoil said the suspected violations were related to the Platts price assessment process and may have been ongoing since 2002.

    The probe will shine a light on the methodology designed by Platts for daily assessments on the physical oil markets, used to close deals worth billions of dollars.

    Innocent til proven guilty….will be watching.

  20. mickysavage 20
    15 May 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Latest Roy Morgan bounces again. Labour up 0.5% to 32% and Greens up 1% to 12, National down to 44%. According to this it is all locked up …

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/national-party-now-dead-level-with-labour-greens-201305150221

    [lprent: added charts. Don’t like that GCR. ]


    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 20.1
      15 May 2013 at 3:34 pm

      A consistent downward trend for the National Party. Get the tiny violins out 🙂

    • McFlock 20.2
      15 May 2013 at 4:17 pm

      Well, locked up not putting NZ1 in either camp.

      [Oh noes – only half a percent recovery! Labour isn’t going anywhere! I just shit my pants! Another 50 years of neoliberalism unless Shearer resigns NOW! /sarc]

      • The Al1en 20.2.1
        15 May 2013 at 4:38 pm

        “[Oh noes – only half a percent recovery! Labour isn’t going anywhere! I just shit my pants! Another 50 years of neoliberalism unless Shearer resigns NOW! /sarc]”

        Mate, you got the suck up blues bad, or you’re on commission, or both 😆

        Great recovery Labour, eighteen more months and you might be on what Clark got in 08.
        You rock, monsters of politics.

        • McFlock 20.2.1.1
          15 May 2013 at 5:00 pm

          Great recovery Labour, eighteen more months and you might be on what Clark got in 08.

          33.99%?
          Beaten that three times this year. Up from zero times last year. But labour’s obviously going nowhere in the polls…

          • The Al1en 20.2.1.1.1
            15 May 2013 at 5:16 pm

            And not reaching them now is a good thing, how?
            Just take the medicine and no more blues (see what I did there?)

            “But labour’s obviously going nowhere in the polls
”

            Yeah, and going nowhere near victory either.

            • McFlock 20.2.1.1.1.1
              15 May 2013 at 5:25 pm

              I see what you did, and it’s stupid.

              I’ll take your:

              Yeah, and going nowhere near victory either.

              and add a dose of reality from roymorgan:

              If a National Election were held now this New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows that it would be too close to call, although an Opposition Labour/ Greens/ NZ First alliance would be slightly favoured.

              “Too close to call” is viewed through your shit-coloured spectacles to read “nowhere near victory”.

              • The Al1en …
                15 May 2013 at 5:40 pm

                You feel that groundswell of Labour support gripping the nation?
                Every change of government has one. Where’s Yours and David’s?

                You hope more than you say anything with genuine confidence.

                • McFlock …
                  15 May 2013 at 5:45 pm

                  Nope.
                  I think the polls show that voters are slowly regaining trust in labour and keeping trust in the greens.

                  I expect the momentum to build with the campaign period as the climax.

                  • The Al1en …
                    15 May 2013 at 5:52 pm

                    I think you interpret based on hope, not the word on the street.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 May 2013 at 5:54 pm

                      23% before the 2011 election.
                      32% now.

                    • The Al1en …
                      15 May 2013 at 6:07 pm

                      Three out of ten voters, given the shocking government we have, is hardly worth boasting about.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 May 2013 at 11:49 pm

                      Yes, because everyone in nz follows politics as closely as you or I.

                      Sarcasm aside, who’s boasting? I just think that fuck all to “too close too call” in half a term isn’t cause for dismay.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      16 May 2013 at 1:58 am

                      Fuck you’re hilarious McFlock. You are overconfident on Labour/Shearer and I expect you to be softening up and backpedaling on them big time next year. Btw where was Labour in the Roy Morgan 12-18 months before the last election? That’s the obvious comparison you’ve avoided.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 1:24 pm

                      not avoided at all.

                      Where were the greens?
                      Where had Labour come from in 2008?

                      Contrast with now.

          • Colonial Viper 20.2.1.1.2
            15 May 2013 at 5:22 pm

            you better remind yourself of what Labour got in the Roy Morgan in 2007, the year before elections, if you want to compare apples with apples.

            And no, Shearer Labour hasn’t beaten that 3x so far.

            • McFlock 20.2.1.1.2.1
              15 May 2013 at 5:39 pm

              The Roymorgan poll at the start of 2007 that had 41%? True.
              The one at the end of 2007 that had 34.5%? Also true – beaten once, equalled twice this year.

              In 2007 Labour was going down.
              In 2013 Labour is going up.
              And what were the Greens getting in that period, compared to now?

              The difference is that in 2007 this was the assessment from the pollster:

              “Support for Helen Clark’s Labour Government remains weak with the Nationals lead remaining at 13%.

              • lprent …
                16 May 2013 at 3:22 am

                In 2013 Labour is going up.

                Always nice to see an optimistic viewpoint. The NZLP is pretty much bouncing along in the 30-35% range. Just as they have for every period since the 2008 election except for a couple of months prior to the 2011 election and in the honeymoon just after the 2008 election..

                Since 2008, the Greens and NZ First have risen. National has descended from their 2009 highs. A few National coalition partners have been rediscovering what oblivion means. The Labour caucus is doing bugger all compared to the same time in the last election cycle – and they bloody well lost that one. Look at the graph again.

                The Labour caucus hasn’t made any discernible traction compared to this time (mid-2010) in the last electoral cycle. Indeed their polling performance looks like a repeat of mid-2010. No real hits on National.

                The best that you can say is that they have managed to reverse their 2011 slide towards oblivion. On an more optimistic note, they seemed to have finally managed to stop having dickhead scandals from oversized egos making fools of themselves that were pissing me off so much from 2009-2011. I think that most of the self-inflicted injury fools are now gone (apart from Shane Jones).

                But the caucus seems to be both uninspired, uninspiring, intensely reactive and don’t seem to understand the concept of preparedness strategy (ie looking at how to sell the damn things). The kiwibuild policy was curiously unfinished and like the Nats seems to have ignored the realities of the Auckland environment (where the biggest systemic housing issues are). Basically we don’t need more 3 bedroom homes on a section or shoebox central city student apartments here. What we need is to provide the types of housing that gets the ever increasing numbers of elderly, couples with no kids, and singletons out of family homes into something more suitable – which is where the housing shortage is. What we got was a policy that looked ok for Wellington where it may be possible to build a 3 bedroom house on section for $300k within 10 kilometres of the CBD.

                The power purchasing policy was better. But they appear to have not thought through the obvious downstream implications of such a policy shift, and they wound up backing away from it – which really was a bit of a disaster.

                • McFlock …
                  16 May 2013 at 11:31 am

                  In the first 18 months from 2008 there are half a dozen or so mid to high twenties in your 30-35% range.

                  And they started in the mid thirties.

                  This election period, the picture is quite different. But you need to move through 32 to get from 27 to 38 or 40.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    16 May 2013 at 12:03 pm

                    Yep, having started from a low base, the LP, under Shearer, is doing better than average. Anything above 35% on polling day means a change of Government (assuming the Greens maintain double figures), so a consistant 30% plus is a good platform to launch an election campaign from.

                    If Shearer can maintain polling in the low to mid thirties till the election and the party membership can fight for more progressive policies such as NZPower and Kiwibuild to be the centrepoint of Labour’s election platform, I see no reason why we won’t have a terrific result on election day.

                    As an aside, I think Labour may not ever go above the 30’s again. That’s due to MMP and the effective job the Greens are doing keeping their vote at around 10%. That’s actually not a problem at all, because the right may never be able to muster a majority again, particularly now that they have effectively destroyed the Conservative Party’s chances by opting not to lower the 5% threshold.

      • Colonial Viper 20.2.2
        15 May 2013 at 4:46 pm

        McFlock: I accept that given the strength of the Government’s recent performances, the outstanding economic and employment growth the nation is experiencing, the satisfaction people have with the status quo, and the lack of confidence sapping scandals within National, it is of course going to be difficult for Labour to poll much above 32% or so.

        If only we had a National Government which truly sucked at governing and which demonstrated a venal and short sighted nature to everything they did, Labour would have a chance of gaining more traction in the polls.

        • McFlock 20.2.2.1
          15 May 2013 at 5:06 pm

          It’s such a shame that the people who know with such certainty how labour could have been at <50% in the polls by now do not have the political competence to achieve that popularity within their own party.

          One of the tragic mysteries of history, no doubt.

          • Colonial Viper 20.2.2.1.1
            15 May 2013 at 5:10 pm

            Yeah it’s a shame, but you’re ok with it.

            • McFlock 20.2.2.1.1.1
              15 May 2013 at 5:17 pm

              well, you know my philosophy – get the fuck over it, assess the situation, work with what you have.

              I mean, it’s not as fun as railing against the injustices of the weather, but the end result is usually better for everyone.

              • The Al1en …
                15 May 2013 at 5:45 pm

                “assess the situation, work with what you have.”

                Missed this first time around with all the lolling.

                At least 68% in that poll have, and thought fuck off with that.

                • McFlock …
                  15 May 2013 at 5:48 pm

                  Yes.
                  Because MMP encourages coalitions. That’s how it works.

                  National has no friends. At best they have the vagaries of Peters.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    15 May 2013 at 6:06 pm

                    Because MMP encourages coalitions. That’s how it works.

                    Understanding that this is not an excuse for weak ass performance and policy.

                  • felix …
                    16 May 2013 at 7:02 am

                    “National has no friends. At best they have the vagaries of Peters.”

                    Another way of saying that is ‘At best they have enough friends to trounce Labour and the Greens and Mana.’

                    Best not think about it like that though. Let’s just pretend Winston will gracefully bow out too.

              • Colonial Viper …
                15 May 2013 at 6:03 pm

                yeah just remember that the current Labour leadership ain’t no force of nature

                • McFlock …
                  16 May 2013 at 12:17 am

                  And yet the railing here seems as effective as if it were.
                  Why is that? Might you not be quite so familiar with political realities as you think?

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    16 May 2013 at 12:28 am

                    Condescension? Oh I guess you’ve really hurting my feelings now.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 12:44 am

                      No.
                      Just pointing out that if you were half as good at influencing labour as you expect labour to be at influencing the polls, this debate would have ended months ago.

                      Those that can’t, criticise, I guess.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      16 May 2013 at 1:34 am

                      Even more condescension? Now you’re just being a little prick.

                      Btw “influencing Labour” lol

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 2:53 am

                      why is that a lol?
                      If you know what it takes to win the votes of more than a million people, surely you can persuade a few thousand. Or a couple of dozen.

          • The Al1en 20.2.2.1.2
            15 May 2013 at 5:18 pm

            “the people who know with such certainty how labour could have been at <50% in the polls by now do not have the political competence to achieve that popularity within their own party."

            Can't believe you write that stuff. I'm not picking on you, just find it hard when you mention political incompetence and still back Labour and Shearer.

            It's a lolfest sometimes.

            • McFlock 20.2.2.1.2.1
              15 May 2013 at 5:43 pm

              Yep, you missed the point, which was:

              if you guys could do any better than the current caucus, why haven’t you managed to get Labour to sing to your songsheet? Why are you gnashing your teeth here, rather than your advice being adopted as the Labour playbook?

              • The Al1en …
                15 May 2013 at 5:48 pm

                I missed nothing, just ignored the meaningless.

                Labour can do one. I don’t trust them, at all.

                I fear a Shearer government will be so bad, they’ll end the party as a political force for good.
                It’s close already.

                • McFlock …
                  15 May 2013 at 5:55 pm

                  If they are too politically incompetent to win in 2014, why do you fear it?

                  Lol – this has been fun, but I’m off for a few hours.

                  • The Al1en …
                    15 May 2013 at 6:04 pm

                    “If they are too politically incompetent to win in 2014, why do you fear it?”

                    What bit don’t you understand? He’s a shit leader, he’s got a shit shadow front bench, and he shits on Labour’s core values.
                    That’s not a recipe that fills me with confidence, in fact, the way he’s gone about the job for 18 months, it should be filling with fear and dread every hardcore lefty voter, well those that haven’t bloated themselves with false hope that is.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 May 2013 at 6:08 pm

                      McFlock is lost in a world of mediocre is good enough because it will probably get over the line. The resulting quality of government and leadership he’s relying on the Greens to provide.

                    • The Al1en …
                      15 May 2013 at 6:14 pm

                      I won’t give up on him.
                      Deep down he’s a green vote and/or a hurray for Cunliffe.
                      He just doesn’t know it yet 😆

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 12:24 am

                      But if they’re too incompetent to win, there’s nothing to fear.

                      And I like coalition governments. It means there’s no point in developing saviour obsessions over a single politician. Too easy to make a fuhrer, sort of thing.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      16 May 2013 at 12:29 am

                      A completely unprovoked, unforced self Godwin. Awesome.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 12:56 am

                      Nah.
                      I just have trust issues putting that much faith in one politician.
                      Especially one who’s said he’ll serve out the term on the back bench.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      16 May 2013 at 1:40 am

                      Your trust issues are why you made a Nazi Germany reference?

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 2:59 am

                      Can you think of a better example of people putting faith in the future of a nation on one person ?

                      I’d like it if all parties went the coleader route, frankly. Maybe even coprime ministers.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 8:42 am

                      “But if they’re too incompetent to win, there’s nothing to fear.”

                      Like you’ve pointed out, despite a truly horrible government, Labour may be able to form a government. This mathematical possibility doesn’t make them winners, nor does it suggest they will form a competent, cohesive force.

                      “Too easy to make a fuhrer, sort of thing.”

                      From messiah to fuhrer in two evenings of debate.
                      No doubt tomorrow you’ll be fixating on Diablo.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 8:44 am

                      “Can you think of a better example of people putting faith in the future of a nation on one person ?”

                      😆 @ the Elephant with offshore accounts in the room.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 1:22 pm

                      Yes, I do think your fixation on a single politician is unhealthy.
                      But I wouldn’t go as far as the devil – I merely think he is human.

                      That’s why I like MMP. It’s like a miniature separation of powers, so no one person is in sole charge.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 2:45 pm

                      “Yes, I do think your fixation on a single politician is unhealthy.
                      But I wouldn’t go as far as the devil – I merely think he is human.”

                      Though to be fair, read back and I mention cunliffe once at the end of the exchange, with a smiley. You bring up him or the notion of saving politicians more than any one on here.
                      That’s a little odd.

                      “That’s why I like MMP. It’s like a miniature separation of powers, so no one person is in sole charge.”

                      That’ll be news to JK

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 2:52 pm

                      After you bring up Cunliffe.

                      After saying you are afraid that a shearer government would be so bad it’d “end the party as a political force for good.”

                      “That’s why I like MMP. It’s like a miniature separation of powers, so no one person is in sole charge.”

                      That’ll be news to JK

                      Not really. Otherwise he wouldn’t have needed a cup of tea.

                  • The Al1en …
                    16 May 2013 at 3:14 pm

                    “After you bring up Cunliffe.”

                    I dispute that in this exchange, and I dispute in others on the standard, some I’ve not even been party to.
                    I suggest you’re far more occupied with DC than I am with DS.

                    “After saying you are afraid that a shearer government would be so bad it’d “end the party as a political force for good.”

                    See point one in response to the name cunliffe.

                    “Not really. Otherwise he wouldn’t have needed a cup of tea.”

                    Now that’s just silly, seeing how minority Labour would be in government. Like was pointed out, we know how mmp works, that’s why we voted to keep it.
                    Key is in charge of the government. Who is is in charge of the opposition?

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 4:55 pm

                      Oh, you dispute it? That’s just super.

                      Any specifics, like linking to the comment where I mentioned Cunliffe in this thread before you did?

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 5:05 pm

                      “Oh, you dispute it? That’s just super.”

                      Any one is free to to look through this thread and deduce which time you went on about saviours and fuhrers and when I mentioned Cunliffe with a smiley, in an exchange with CV that was about you being a lost cause. Post up the findings here and it’s a done deal.

                      They could also, should they be so enthused, go check comments in other topics, including ones where I have not even commented. There they will find the mere mention of ds being shit, is met somewhat awkwardly by comments about messiahs and deities.

                      I’m not a researcher, or that petty, but it’s all there in black and white should any one feel the need.

                      I wouldn’t say it if it weren’t truthful or I could be caught out.
                      Some call it integrity, I, self preservation.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 5:11 pm

                      smiley shmiley.
                      Many a true honest word is said in jest.
                      You brought him into the debate.

                      edit: and if you’re petty enough to make the claim, you should be petty enough to back it up.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 5:19 pm

                      In reply to my mate
                      “McFlock is lost in a world of mediocre is good enough because it will probably get over the line. The resulting quality of government and leadership he’s relying on the Greens to provide.”

                      Actually in this instance, it was my you’ll hurray for cunliffe that sparked the fuhrer jibe, despite never once proving a link between a competent would be leader and peoples (my) support and belief in his industry being any form of demagoguery, but you concede from previous form, I’m correct on point two. 😉

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 5:21 pm

                      “petty”

                      For writing

                      “Deep down he’s a green vote and/or a hurray for Cunliffe.” 😆

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 5:46 pm

                      Did I call cunliffe a demagogue?

                      Don’t get me wrong, I definitely think that your “support and belief in his industry” has escalated to unhealthy levels of Cunliffe being labour’s only hope, to the degree that you’ve suggested that a 2014 labour victory without Cunliffe as leader (sorry, “with Shearer in charge” – the elephant in the room being who would replace shearer) would permanently destroy labour as a political force.

                      But ANY obsessional faith in ANY political leader gives me the willies, no matter how benign the person they place their trust in might apparently be. Because it usually ends rather messily, and as far as I know no utopia has ever come out of it.

                      To be absolutely explicit, I was not calling Cunliffe a demagogue.
                      I was calling you an obsessional follower. And as soon as our political support is guided by passions rather than rational assessments of the people and issues, that’s when bad things can happen.

                      So it’s lucky that MMP necessitates cooperation between parties and their alphas.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 May 2013 at 6:02 pm

                      “Don’t get me wrong, I definitely think that your “support and belief in his industry” has escalated to unhealthy levels of Cunliffe being labour’s only hope, to the degree that you’ve suggested that a 2014 labour victory without Cunliffe as leader (sorry, “with Shearer in charge” – the elephant in the room being who would replace shearer) would permanently destroy labour as a political force.”

                      Quoted for posterity.
                      One day they’ll look back at this post and say, now that’s what I call insight. 😆

                    • McFlock …
                      16 May 2013 at 6:29 pm

                      nope.

                      in ten five years it’ll be as relevant as Clive Matthewson.

                      But I tell you what, if Labour get elected with Shearer as leader, do another round of asset sales and plummet to single-digit popularity, I’ll buy you a beer.

              • felix …
                15 May 2013 at 5:50 pm

                Lost cause mate. Labour’s core support has settled at somewhere around 30% or so.

                That number isn’t changing significantly in either direction and the rest of the population doesn’t give a fuck about Labour, either because they never have or because they’ve given up.

    • The Al1en 20.3
      15 May 2013 at 4:39 pm

      0.5% is a bounce now?

      • Colonial Viper 20.3.1
        15 May 2013 at 4:43 pm

        Can’t set the bar too high.

        • felix 20.3.1.1
          15 May 2013 at 5:21 pm

          Be fair CV, they’ve only been at it for a term and a half. Give them another six months eh?

        • gobsmacked 20.3.1.2
          15 May 2013 at 5:40 pm

          We all know the definition of madness – doing same old, expecting different.

          There is no point expecting anything new from the polls, because nothing new is happening.

          1) Government continues to fuck up and/or piss people off, whether on serious matters (MRP, GCSB) or headline-making trivia (Aaron Gilmore, Key’s brain farts).

          2) Leader of the opposition continues to say “Oh, look, bottom line is, the government – in terms of fucking off – er, up – it is pissing – Labour is – National in terms of Labour is – I mean, look, they are …” (continues until audience dies screaming).

          It dosn’t matter how many times National drop the ball, Shearer can’t pick it up. He doesn’t have it, we all know this, and the only rebuttal is “yes, but let’s pretend and hope”. So Labour will bounce around in the polls, going nowhere much until the campaign proper gets under way, in 2014. Then the PM-in-waiting will either (a) fall apart or (b) rise to the occasion.

          Not much point debating which of the two will happen. One is based on daily evidence we can all see, the other is based on horoscopes, or something.

          • Colonial Viper 20.3.1.2.1
            15 May 2013 at 6:10 pm

            Voters are definitely leaving National. And they’re definitely not choosing Labour/Shearer.

            • RedBaronCV 20.3.1.2.1.1
              15 May 2013 at 6:41 pm

              We have a by-election soon. What plans do Labour greens etc have for getting out the vote? I know by- elections are usually poorly attended but wouldn’t it make a good practice run for 2014? So many non voters to be enticed?

              • Colonial Viper …
                15 May 2013 at 6:48 pm

                Doesn’t need a practice run, minimise the spend on it, just enough effort to win.

                edit – Greens might want a practice run, Labour can competently do this kind of thing in its sleep.

          • David H 20.3.1.2.2
            15 May 2013 at 10:48 pm

            “So Labour will bounce around in the polls, going nowhere much until the campaign proper gets under way, in 2014. Then the PM-in-waiting will either (a) fall apart or (b) rise to the occasion.”

            Do you really think that the few loyal labour supporters that are left, are going to have the patience to see if Shearer dies in a metaphorical ditch, and then what, Parker? Robertson?? jumps in the saddle, and lets the polls carry on their flat line?

  21. Tigger 21
    15 May 2013 at 3:57 pm

    New chair is another sign the gummint will be hocking off Air NZ soon.

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10883668

    The way they’re rushing all this makes me think of a desperate garage sale. Next up, an old lamp, used underwear and some family photos. Oh, and NZ’s soul.

  22. freedom 22
    15 May 2013 at 4:06 pm

    http://boingboing.net/2013/05/13/53-years-of-nuclear-tests-as-e.html
    after watching this presentation,
    no-one could blame you for wanting off this deranged little world

    • veutoviper 23.1
      16 May 2013 at 8:56 am

      LOL!

      Particularly liked the last two sentences in the final quote..

      “Well it’s certainly bold,” he said. “I mean it’s an extremely impressive policy and I think it’s something that a lot of people have been holding out for. But I just can’t fathom why any government would ever want to repeal a previous one. It leaves them with no one to blame.”

  24. karol 24
    15 May 2013 at 5:57 pm

    Excellent speech from Hone in today’s General Debate – slams the Maori Party for supporting the Charter Schools Bill:

    That’s what the fuss is all about.

  25. xtasy 25
    16 May 2013 at 6:31 pm

    I do not know whether this was mentioned before, but since yesterday, TV3 news seem to have entered a war of arguments between Unite Union and McDonalds, where a lasting employment dispute about wages, hours and minimum wage payment requirements is ongoing.

    Naturally like most MSM stupid and crap media like to focus on, the REAL issues are NOT reported on at all. Somehow a comment by senior Unite leader Mike Treen and others seems to have caught their main focus now. Some comments that the police breaking up a picket line outside the McDonald’s restaurant on Queen St may have been to ensure clientele to enter the fast food restaurant, seems to have been taken issue with.

    The police now dispute that their intervention was to ensure discounted burgers or other food for themselves, and they have little else to say. Treen though made clear that a picket is there of right by protesting and striking workers, so that allows them to perhaps discourage clientele to go and enter McDonald’s.

    The police have another story, of course, and they deny having interfered for cheap discounted food. Naturally I would think the police are correct on that, but they have a dismal point of justification, facing new media coverage on TV3 tonight and yesterday, proving police and certain other professional groups get heavily discounted services all the time.

    So we have cops that start on a “starting wage” at 50 k per annum, that have low waged, soon underpaid (new minimum wage earners at youth rates) workers at McDonald’s “enhance” their lifestyles, to get all kinds of cheap perks they can.

    NO wonder these cops largely vote National, and some of them have the bloody audacity to complain, leave the country and work for higher paid jobs in Australia and the UK!

    Maori and Pasifica, same as others affected, will bear this in mind, that they are beaten up, locked up and treated like shit by an elite force of mercenaries, that even deny workers a fair pay. So much for foot soldiers and mercenaries, to protect McDonalds and others from the deserved voice and power of workers they rely on. SHAME ON THIS, NZ!-

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