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Open mike 15/07/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 15th, 2012 - 123 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

123 comments on “Open mike 15/07/2012”

  1. Carol 1

    Charter schools promoters getting so desperate they are considering touting for students in shopping malls?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10819663

    Catherine Isaac, the former Act Party president appointed to set up the new privately-sponsored schools, proposed the retail education tactic at a small public meeting this week. But she faced a loud accusation of racism from the secondary teachers’ union, which is scathing about the potential for “McDonald’s schools” or campuses sponsored by controversial Act donor Louis Crimp.

    Isaac, the Charter School Working Group chair, raised the prospect of recruiting charter school students from shopping malls at the Auckland meeting. She cited the example of charter schools marketing themselves in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina disrupted public school enrolment.

    But the logic of this is just madness, and shows no faith in the government to provide adequate education:

    Isaac dismissed that, saying charter schools could not cherry-pick students. “To call it racism is bizarre. What we’re trying to do is provide another option for parents whose needs are not being met by the current system.”

    And which parents exactly are not being met, when NZ’s education rates well internationally? If it’s less well-off parents, will charter schools ever make up for an unequal society?

    • marsman 1.1

      Isaac had a piece in the DomPost the other day too claiming Charter Schools were not anti teacher and upping the lie about the number of pupils failing, now it’s 30%. It’s an insult to educators to have a Business Round Table affiliated money-bags foisting neoliberal crap on the teaching profession.

    • Uturn 1.2

      Yesterday someone said it was impossible for MSM to present a view outside the western perspective and that article is a prime example. Further, it is all fractured and linked to PPTA statements without a context – available online if you want them. So many statements stand alone and become so wildly open to interpretation as to be useless as a form of information.

      Even after reading a few online sources of how the PPTA could cry racism and then a paper from University of Otago on the matter that goes into some depth – complete with a startling alternative view, for balance, that would bolster the enthusiasm of any maori bashers lurking nearby – it is no wonder The Herald can’t tell the whole story. It’s funny how the science of thinking, in an effort to acknowledge balance, often forgets human nature. (I’m not going to post the link, because the last thing this site needs is more fuel for the fire. It’s easy to find if you want it.). In order for this story to be written properly, the story would have to first not be able to be written. The story, doesn’t exist.

      As far as I can make out, there is no way for MSM to present a nonwestern view. Can’t be done. If they try, they inadvertantly present a view deemed racist from one particular (important) group’s perspective. In the context of this story there is no way the PPTA can call racism. In calling racism from their point of view, they are being racist from another particular group’s point of view.

      The obvious and easy concept that one could take from this MSM story, a story that does not exist, is that recruiting students from a shopping mall is discriminating against levels of society who do not or cannot frequent shopping malls, because in the very least, they are too poor.

      • Uturn 1.2.1

        ah, I should add, Carol, that the fracturing of the story I refer to is not a comment on your posting it. I am talking about the original Herald article you link to, not your ideas/opinions/post.

    • Dv 1.3

      >>Charter schools promoters getting so desperate they are considering touting for students in shopping malls?

      This is straight out of the Banks and Hullich play book.

      Banks signed off dodgy prospectuses for Hullich.
      Hullich set up in malls in Porirua etc to sell dodgy kiwisaver.

      We know how well that worked out.

      Now they going to prowl the malls again.

      NICE

  2. Carol 2

    Hmmmm…. so the police have completed their investigation into Banksies’ funding by Dotcom:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10819571

    The National Party leader has had to suck up the embarrassment of having to defend John Banks’ dodginess. Last week, the police completed their investigation of Banks’ revelation that he concealed his solicitation of Kim Dotcom for cash and put the cheques through his campaign accounts as anonymous. Presumably the police will shortly reveal their decision. If Banks is criminally charged, then Key’s job will get even harder.

    So why has this completion slipped by so quietly? Is it because no charges will be laid?

    • deuto 2.1

      I recall short articles on both Stuff and the Herald about a week or 10 days ago stating that the investigation had been completed and the issue referred to the Police legal unit as per the internal process. A decision was then expected within 2 to 3 weeks IIRCG.

      Edit – here is a link to the Herald article on 5 july.
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=10817650

      • Carol 2.1.1

        Thanks for the links. Agreed. Jenny. I don’t expect any charges to be made.

      • Vicky32 2.1.2

        and the issue referred to the Police legal unit as per the internal process.

        On Politics this morning (Nine to Noon), Hooten referred to (for the first time afaik), to the possible consequences to the Nats of a prosecution.

    • Jenny 2.2

      Banks will not be charged by the police. Indeed as recent cases have shown the police job see their job as protecting those members of the establishment or from “good faimilies” from “needless” prosecution.

      The only way Banks could face charges for his corruption was if some one else took a private prosecution against him.

    • It was reported on July 5:

      Police investigation into Banks’ mayoral campaign completed

      A police investigation into John Banks’ 2010 mayoral campaign donations disclosure is completed and a decision on whether the Act leader faces prosecution is expected within weeks.

      Auckland Detective Inspector Mark Benefield told complainants yesterday that the investigation was over and the case had been sent to Police Legal Services to review. He said that process could take two to three weeks.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10817650

      Apparently sending it for review is standard procedure. So expect to wait another week or two.

      • Jenny 2.3.1

        For cases such as this the facts alone aren’t at issue. The prosecuting police officer whose desk this arrived on, knows that this sort of decision is way above his pay grade, and that it is his political duty to bump this up to the senior police who reserve for themselves the right of weighing up the rights and wrongs of political matters.

        When it came to making political decisions about Tuhoe or making armed raids on Dotcom at the behest of the FBI events show that these senior police officers will always come down on the side of authority.

        On the say so of the Americans and without any evidence produced to them at all by the FBI, the police stormed Mr Dotcom’s house in an armed raid, illegally confiscated all his property, used their discretionary powers to oppose bail citing a flight risk. Following the publicly expressed wishes of the Americans, the police also continued to vigorously oppose bail and defend the confiscations when their decisions ha to come before the courts.

        Just as well we still have a court system to check the police. If not, chillingly Dotcom would have been delivered up to their foreign power de jour by our politicised police.

        Similiarly to a political script made in the US, our police force mounted major armed raids making dozens of arrests and terrorising a whole Maori community,when they could have just arrested their four suspects with out hardly any effort. In the following court case, politically motivated, the police tried to use illegally gathered evidence and anonymous police spies and undercover agents to make a case for a huge terrorist conspiracy. And failed miserably.

        Our police at the senior police are conservatively politicised and will not act against a conservative bastion of the status quo. However be a Maori activist, or a trade union picketer, or a Occupy Aotearoa activist, or anti racist protester and expect the full use of police discretionary powers to arrest or detain. Often followed by mischievious and frivolous police prosecutions that most likely will fail but still cost you time and money.

        • muzza 2.3.1.1

          I would not expect to see any charges against Banks, the mason brothers all take care of their own!

        • Vicky32 2.3.1.2

          Just as well we still have a court system to check the police. If not, chillingly Dotcom would have been delivered up to their foreign power de jour by our politicised police.

          Very fortunate for Dotcom indeed!

    • Jenny 2.4

      Just the facts of the matter are not all the police consider when laying charges, your class position in society is also a factor.

      In a scandalous example our conservatively partisan police show their political bias in exercising their discretion not to charge someone with family connections.

      This partiality is why our prisons are stuffed full of Maori or those without expensive lawyers or not from “good families”.

      Or why wealthy conservative politicians like John Banks will never face charges.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7249331/Carjacked-teen-upset-as-man-let-off-with-warning

      In another case of the police exercising their discretion not to bring charges against an establishment figure. The husband of a judge who ran down and killed a pedestrian and then fled the scene, has been told he will not be facing any charges. The police have also told a key witness to the events, the first person who turned up at the scene, that his testimony will not be required.

      The judge was in the car with her husband when he fled the scene of the accident.

      Firstly;-

      Had the judge and her husband come from a social event?

      Was there alcohol involved?

      Had the driver been drinking?

      Did the judge remonstrate with her husband to stop and give assistance?

      We will never know.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7243382/Fatal-hit-and-run-charges-dropped

      Secondly;-

      If the occupants of the car involved in this hit and run, had been Maori, or otherwise not part of the establishment, would there be a hearing?

      Would the police use their discretion not to bring charges?

      Would the runaway driver have to appear in court?

      • Richard Christie 2.4.1

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7243382/Fatal-hit-and-run-charges-dropped

        “that was a big thump dear”
        “Don’t worry, keep driving”

        Disgusting.
        Absolutely disgraceful.

      • mike e 2.4.2

        The police who dropped the charges should be immediately suspended and be investigated.
        Hopefully after the trauma of loosing his son he has the will to force the issue.

      • Richard Christie 2.4.3

        Great, now we have a community magistrate who owes the police a favour.

      • QoT 2.4.4

        Come on, Jenny, drunk driving is only a problem when it’s young people, poor people, or Asians doing it. In fact, it’s scientifically impossible for good Pillars of the Community to harm people through driving, ergo the hit-and-run cannot have actually happened.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.4.5

        And more victim blaming by the police at the end of the first article:

        He said it was a reminder that people driving alone late at night in areas with bars and hotels should keep their doors locked.

        The second one is disgusting. It’s an obvious case of people making excuses for the driver:

        The witness, who was due to appear before the court tomorrow, was told Mr Mascelle had hired another lawyer and said he understood it had been determined that “he couldn’t have stopped” the car on the night William Hoskins was run down.

        No, I don’t expect Banks to be charged with anything – he’s too well connected, white and rich.

        • McFlock 2.4.5.1

          I love that he couldn’t have stopped the car.
                   
          Like it didn’t have working brakes or something.

          • QoT 2.4.5.1.1

            I love how “visibility was low”, and no one could possibly have been expected to have their headlights on or anything. (Judging by the photo in the article, it’s not a blind turn or any other physical obstruction of visibility.)

      • Treetop 2.4.6

        Yesterday I added this link 14 .2 to Banks case to Police lawyers 5 July 2012 regarding the fatal incident which you have mentioned again.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7279622/Police-drop-charges-over-hit-and-run

        A recent Wainuiomata case is also mentioned and a similar conclusion is being drawn.

        • Treetop 2.4.6.1

          I was hoping that the stuff link had a life longer than a day as I do not have the same problem with a Herald link.

          If someone could please fix it, this would be appreciated.

          • Treetop 2.4.6.1.1

            I have gone to the link I supplied in 2.4.6 and punched in Police drop charges over hit and run and it came back page not found. I am not sure if what the police said is now being scrutinised. In a nut shell the driver and the judge’s word is believed by the police. The driver knew he hit something, he got out and checked the panel on his car and he did not think he had hit a person. The victim is reported as probably lying on the road when he was hit and that he had been to his cousin’s wedding. A motorist saw him lying in the middle of the road in a critical condition.

            • Richard Christie 2.4.6.1.1.1

              The driver knew he hit something, he got out and checked the panel on his car and he did not think he had hit a person.

              To be fair I should change my reconstruction then:

              “That was a big thump dear”
              (stops)
              “Gee, the car panel looks rather bent”
              “Don’t worry dear, keep driving”

    • mike e 2.5

      Police complaints authority

    • David H 2.6

      Yep yet another whitewash coming. The only thing that will amaze me is if anyone is actually surprised at the whitewash. Its all dirty politics.

  3. Ad 3

    Looking forward to seeing how the New Zealand Labour Council come up with the democratic right of Labour members to choose their own leader, following their decisions yesterday.

  4. just saying 4

    From a newspaper article where the reporter uses info Bennet has provided to inflame hatred and dersion against beneficiaries, and which I’m not even going to link to. From the obligatory few ‘other side of the story’ paragraphs so beloved of the talkback taliban, who like pick apart the carcass they provide for days afterwards:

    Some may accuse her of having an easy life, but Catherine faces a daily struggle to feed her family.

    The reason she cannot make the books balance, says Mangere Budgeting Services chief executive Daryl Evans, is because she is in hock to predatory money lenders who demand huge repayments each week.

    Her debt, inherited from her partner, is upwards of $45,000.

    Much of it is representative of high-interest and fees rather than money borrowed.

    By the time the rent and bills are paid, little is left for day to day survival and when the money runs out, she is forced to buy groceries from the mobile food trucks that roam poor neighbourhoods.

    They charge $7.95 for two litres of milk and $5 for a loaf of bread, but her credit rating means she doesn’t have access to credit cards that a supermarket would accept.

    “In an ideal world,” says Evans, “she would be working but currently there aren’t any jobs. They simply don’t exist.”…

    bold mine

    Jesus, the vultures really are honing in on the poor. More landing every day.
    Chilling

    • Jimmie 4.1

      One puzzle about that quote: If her money has run out and she doesn’t have a valid credit card how does she buy food from a mobile vendor?

      Do they let her book it up on tick?

      Why is she responsible for the debts of some dead beat partner?

      I honestly think that for some folk who end up in this situation their best option is to declare bankruptcy.

      Sure they may lose their hp 50″ tv & x box, but at least they can start again with a clean slate without all burden of debt around their neck.

      Also by being declared bankrupt this will affect their credit rating thus making it more difficult to give in to the temptation to book things up.

      For day to day basics they can then talk to the Sallies or op shop about getting cheap stuff for their home.

      Also it means that the dodgy money lenders take a loss from their bad loans so hopefully they will think twice before lending again in the future.

      • Uturn 4.1.1

        I suggest a moratorium on links to crappy news sites on The Standard. All it does is enrage people because the information is so obviously corrupted. Once, it was that you could be sure that what the papers said, if not accurate to the last detail, thena at least the event itself actually happened. Now that we can’t even be sure of that, what is the point in reading it?

      • just saying 4.1.2

        Just having a wee nibble Jimmie? Too delicious to resist?
        Full marks for hiding behind concern-for-her-plight while you feast, though.

      • Lanthanide 4.1.3

        “Do they let her book it up on tick?”
        Almost certainly.

        “Why is she responsible for the debts of some dead beat partner?”
        Because of relationship property laws in this country.

        “I honestly think that for some folk who end up in this situation their best option is to declare bankruptcy.”
        Yes, she should.

      • Dr Terry 4.1.4

        Note the considerable coverage in this morning’s Sunday Herald featuring the latest from Beneficiary Bashing Bennett. Great Scott!! Cited here are TWELVE families from the entire country who dared to have 10 plus children! How will the country survive? (I thought New Zealand wanted increase in population! Only of the “right kind”, of course). So exactly how much money is the tax payer shelving out for these families? In a family of ten, almost certainly a number are aged 16 or over, probably left school, even working (with luck!)
        I am waiting for Bennett to turn her attention to the Catholic Church (if she dare!) and castigate it for opposing, as a sin, the practice of contraception. How quiet the news is on this point! Many poorer and larger families just happen to be Catholic.

        • Dr Terry 4.1.4.1

          While I am about it, dare I criticise the vast amount of media coverage devoted to Sonny Bill Williams? Does anything else in the country gain this amount of coverage and devotion (though some are now bitter about his “deserting” them for the idol of money)? He hopes to learn Japanese language – before he quits on them for still more cash in Australian rugby league! After Australia, he is likely to bless this country with a return – for high paying rugby will again be on the agenda! What a hero for our kiddies.

    • mike e 4.2

      Those vultures all vote Nactional

    • Ed 4.3

      “and which I’m not even going to link to”

      One of the strengths of The Standard is that generally posters are prepared to support quotations with links, or references to the source. Sometimes there will be no source – a personal and informed opinion is still valuable, and sometimes an news report or article cannot be found on the net. There is obviously no need for academic sort of attributions, but where there is not url to link to, it is reasonable to give a brief reference such as for example SST pageXX, but a statement that a link was not being given deliberately, immediately brought to my mind suspicion that the quotes were selective and potentially misleading

      just saying?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.3.1

        Yeah, I’d much prefer that links be provided.

      • just saying 4.3.2

        K. Fair enough.

        Herald on Sunday. Today. Page one.
        You’ll probably get a bit of de ja vu. Bene bashing tends to follow a pretty standard formula.

        In this case the section of the piece that I quoted was the only part of the item relevant to my comment. However, I reserve the right to not be obliged to provide a short cut that might increase the page views of an item I consider discriminatory and nasty, where the offending text is not relevant to my comment.

        But fair call.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.4

      If it was her partners bills then why is she paying it and she can legally get those money lender bills dropped.

      That said, the government really needs to reign in the loan sharks.

    • Treetop 4.5

      A no asset procedure (NAP) may erase most of the debt, but there are conditions and exclusions.

      Since when does a person get accommodation supplement entitlement when they rent from HNZ?

  5. Zetetic 5

    Corin Dann on Q+A: “was there any symbolism in Tariana Turia dressing like a Cuban revolutionary?”

    Che Guevara was an Argentine.

    • …who was a revolutionary in Cuba.

      • Fran 5.1.1

        Have you never heard of a character called Fidel Castro?

      • rosy 5.1.2

        … and Bolivia. Better he just ‘revolutionary’. Actually maybe she wore in sympathy with the U.S Olympic team about uniforms being made in china…

        • prism 5.1.2.1

          We had our red socks being sold in NZ as fundraisers for Sir Peter Blake yacht thing made in China.

      • mike e 5.1.3

        Che Guevara was a medical doctor who saw extreme poverty in central and south America where indigenous people were being exploited by a few wealthy people you would call it Feudal.
        He had the brains and the balls to stand up for what he believed in.
        Unlike you pg who has neither as your just a
        Pathetic Grovalar running with the fox’s and hunting with the hounds!
        He gave his life for the cause.

    • Uturn 5.2

      Turia dresses like a Cuban revolutionary, in response to a PM who talks like Hernán Cortés. Open the can of spaghetti metaphors, who can untangle it?

  6. Just read in Anderea Vance’s column in the SST …

    “Which Cabinet minister so lacks confidence they need esteem-boosting cuddles from a less-than-sympathetic press secretary?”

    I wonder who …

    • BillODrees 6.1

      Let us start with a table! 

      A. Which ministers lack confidence gernerally? Or B which minister has nothing to be confident about? 

      A few obvious candidates there. Coleman & Parata is an A and B. Collins and Groser are a B.

      Next, of those names, which one has any sex drive? 
       
      Next, of those names, which one is arrogant or stupid enough to try-it-on with someone who is unwelcoming of the attention? 

      try the game for yourself! 

      1       Rt Hon John Key
      2 Hon Bill English
      3 Hon Gerry Brownlee
      4 Hon Steven Joyce
      5 Hon Judith Collins
      6 Hon Tony Ryall
      7 Hon Hekia Parata
      8 Hon Christopher Finlayson
      9 Hon Paula Bennett
      10 Hon David Carter
      11 Hon Murray McCully
      12 Hon Anne Tolley
      13 Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman
      14 Hon Tim Groser
      15 Hon Phil Heatley
      16      Hon Kate Wilkinson
      17 Hon Nathan Guy
      18 Hon Craig Foss
      19 Hon Amy Adams
      20 Hon Chris Tremain

  7. Dv 7

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/latest-edition/7280930/Struggling-students-pushed-to-take-soft-subjects

    “Schools are shuffling Maori and Pacific Island students into “easy” subjects to boost NCEA results, according to new research.

    A mentoring group’s report revealed disadvantaged students were on an “educational dead-end” as softer subjects tended to shut the door on tertiary study and good jobs.”

    SO what would expect when you PUBLISH league tables of pass rates for the schools.

  8. I now have a better understanding of how Māori feel about water. I am at one with Māori on water.

    • Te Reo Putake 8.1

      Jeez, what a plonker you are, Pete. Way to completely miss the point and belittle maori at the same time. Are you John Terry in disguise?

      • felix 8.1.1

        Louis Crimp.

      • Pete George 8.1.2

        TRP – as usual it’s you who ignore the point in your desperation to diss.

        I acknowledged the importance if water to Māori, but Māori don’t have ownership of having an affinity with water, it’s a universal connection.

        I grew up learning to value rain, it was an essential replenisher and it also cleansed. And I had a close association with water races, creeks and rivers. Saying this shouldn’t diminish the connection others have with water.

        • Te Reo Putake 8.1.2.1

          Still missing the point, Pete, but keep waffling, that’ll make you look less like a pompous, patronising pakeha, fer sure.

        • Anne 8.1.2.2

          I grew up learning to value rain, it was an essential replenisher and it also cleansed. And I had a close association with water races, creeks and rivers.

          OMG.

      • Vicky32 8.1.3

        Are you John Terry in disguise?

        Te Reo Putz, what is your issue? I hold no particular brief for Pete George, but who the heck died and made you QoT? (Or similar racially obsessed nutmeg..)

        • QoT 8.1.3.1

          Vicky, seriously. You just can’t keep bringing me up out of the blue and then whinge when I give you yet another lesson in Earth logic.

          I’m deeply sorry you’re incapable of addressing your own deep-seated racism. But given I’ve barely addressed the topic on this blog for months, your comment would seem to indicate it’s you who has the obsession (aka inability to self-analyse or let go of a grudge.)

          • NickS 8.1.3.1.1

            <3

            And Vicky, it's me who's historically oft cluebatted the likes of you for ignoring racial issues and Te Treati O Waitangi. Only I haz no teaspoons for such bullshit at present.

            But hey, you're welcome to keep making an idiot out yourself with your hate-on for QoT, just to remind some of us why you're a bit of a douche-hound at times.

    • So what about the riverbeds Petey?  Doncha agree that if they were owned by Maori and never confiscated they remain in Maori ownership?

    • yay just what is needed more attempted racial division by pete – if support or understanding from you is the answer then the question is fucked.

      • Pete George 8.3.1

        You’re the one trying to racially divide.

        I should be able to have similar feelings about water that Māori do, shouldn’t I? Or are you trying to claim that all Māori attributes are exclusive to one race?

        Water is worldwide. So is an affinity with water.

        • felix 8.3.1.1

          Good for you, Pete.

          Now let’s see your documentation.

          • Pete George 8.3.1.1.1

            Most people know that water is worldwide, and that people everywhere have an affinity with water, without the need for documentation.

            (But I guess felix is just trying to lead into another long meaningless sidetrack discussion)

            • felix 8.3.1.1.1.1

              If by “lead into another long meaningless sidetrack discussion” you mean “get Pete to say what he means out loud in unambiguous language” then yes.

              But I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the documentation to show that you took ownership of the water at some point.

              Still waiting for answers on the other thread too Pete.

              • No, it wasn’t obvious, and your response makes (trying to lead into another long meaningless sidetrack discussion) more obvious.

                • felix

                  Well now that it is obvious I suppose you’ll be able to answer.

                  Still waiting on the other thread too.

            • Anne 8.3.1.1.1.2

              Most people know that water is worldwide, and that people everywhere have an affinity with water, without the need for documentation.

              OMG again!

        • mickysavage 8.3.1.2

          Captain Hook makes a good point.

          If water belongs to us all then why should partially privately owned companies use it for their exclusive benefit?  Why should they be allowed to affect water’s flow and the environmental health of our rivers so that they can make a dollar?

          • Pete George 8.3.1.2.1

            It’s not for their exclusive benefit. There are very few if any people in New Zealand who don’t benefit from power generation.

            And private companies have been and are involved in the business of providing power, it’s not a newly introduced concept.

            • mickysavage 8.3.1.2.1.1

              But Petey this is the nub of the question.  You are perfectly happy for the power companies to build dams, store and regulate the flow of water so that they can profit and even though by doing this the environmental health of the river is affected.

              Yet you do not accept that Maori may have any similar right even though under the treaty it seems pretty clear they have some rights to the rivers.

              How do you reconcile this?

              And what makes you say Maori are seeking to exclusively benefit from water?  They have been very generous in allowing Kiwis to use the water and rivers without charge to date. 

              • And what makes you say Maori are seeking to exclusively benefit from water?

                I don’t think that.

                I questioned your claim that “partially privately owned companies use it for their exclusive benefit”, which is completely different – and obviously incorrect.

                • Bit pedantic and ignores everything else I said.

                  How about this then?

                  If water belongs to us all then why should partially privately owned companies use it for their benefit?  Why should they be allowed to affect water’s flow and the environmental health of our rivers so that they can make a dollar? 

                  • So we can have electricity.

                    You do use electricity don’t you? I presume you also pay someone for it.

                    • So what?  If it is a commercial entity and they want to make a profit they should pay to use what does not belong to them.

                      Simple capitalist economics.

                      Are you saying that Maori should give them free use of what belongs to Maori and they should then charge us all for using it? 

                    • felix

                      So we can have electricity.

                      But you know we can have electricity without private ownership interests benefiting.

                      Don’t you?

                    • Bored

                      Felix says you know we can have electricity without private ownership …..PG in his blinkered ideological thickheadedness is not going to consider whyy these power schemes were not initially built by the private sector.

                      But PG is prepared for the private sector to become parasites upon public investment. True mark of an antisocial scumbag. You will find his grandmother for sale on Trademe.

                    • No felix, I didn’t know that. Tell me how. Documentation would help.

                      And where. Like Cuba and North Korea? Or do they buy in turbines too? Do they smelt their own metals?

                    • felix

                      That’s right Pete, we buy those things, then we own them. Collectively. Via the state.

                      Clap clap for your 30 second diversion. And now we’re back to where we were before your last comment, where I’m asking you why you think it’s suddenly so crucially necessary to have private interests benefiting from the ownership of our energy resources when it’s oddly never been necessary before.

                      Any chance you’re going to start behaving like an adult today or is it just going to be more of the same disingenuous bullshit?

                    • is it just going to be more of the same disingenuous bullshit?

                      Interesting that you think that way. I’ll leave you to it.

                    • And where. Like Cuba and North Korea? Or do they buy in turbines too? Do they smelt their own metals?

                      I heard about the far off really weird country called Aotearoa.

                      Apparently their state, gasp, designed and built power stations using state employees.

                      I kid you not!

                      The whole lot used to be owned by the state and meant not only that the state made a tidy sum it could use to pay for stuff like pensions but also the prices charged were lower than those charged by private companies. 

                      Until one day when a dickhead said “that is communism” and thereby conclusive won the debate amongst the ill informed and the feeble minded.

                      And so they sold their power companies, or at least parts of them and from then on large amounts of wealth were lost to the people of Aotearoa and paid to American corporate bankers and shysters.
                       

                  • felix

                    No arguments, no answers, no reasoning, not even a commitment to your own statements.

                    You’ve really exposed yourself in the last couple of days, even more than you already had.

                    You’re no longer even pretending to discuss anything in good faith. Just transparent word games that you’re not even good at, in a language you don’t understand.

                    And to think I actually stuck up for you when nobody else would. I was wrong about you Pete.

                    You dishonest, cowardly little man.

                    • Just as well you have the guts to engage in protracted anonymous nitpicking and making up your own misinterpretations, while pretending to ignore anything that’s said.

                      Where will you bravely stick your neck out next?

                    • felix

                      Oh the old “anonymous” bit now? Cute. It’s not my problem you haven’t met me, dick.

                      But whatever. Feel free to engage any time you like. Still waiting on the other thread too.

                    • weka

                      Felix isn’t anonymous. He uses a consistent name here so we all know who he is when he posts (if we pay attention).

                    • deuto

                      +1, Felix. Much as I try to ignore PG, I cannot resist on this occasion at playing him at his own game of dissing people here on KB*.

                      You may enjoy this only reply to date on KB General Debate to his post at 8 above re ‘I am at one with Maori on water’

                      Pete George- I have a pretty strong connection with water also. In fact I am about 65% made up of the stuff…

                      Yikes- Does that mean Hone and co have a claim on me??

                      *Today’s example on the KB Racisim thread

                      Pete George (13,816) Says:

                      July 15th, 2012 at 11:12 am
                      It’s not just doing something that someone somewhere could faintly perceive as possibly disadvantaging a Māori person somewhere that risks getting called racism.

                      I’ve posted today about how I feel I have a similar affinity to water as do Māori. I’ve had these responses:

                      Te Reo Putake
                      Jeez, what a plonker you are, Pete. Way to completely miss the point and belittle maori at the same time.

                      marty mars
                      yay just what is needed more attempted racial division by pete – if support or understanding from you is the answer then the question is fucked.

                      Getting accused of racism for having similar feelings about water – some Māori want to set themselves apart, and attack anyone who suggests any commonality.

                    • QoT

                      It’s not my problem you haven’t met me, dick.

                      Best response to that bullshit line of argument EVER.

                    • NickS

                      Just as well you have the guts to engage in protracted anonymous nitpicking and making up your own misinterpretations, while pretending to ignore anything that’s said.

                      Where will you bravely stick your neck out next?

                      Keep on digging Pete, who knows, maybe ye shall break through to the other side and become smart someday, or even become an MP…

            • Draco T Bastard 8.3.1.2.1.2

              It’s not for their exclusive benefit.

              It is once the state power companies are privatised by this government.

              And private companies have been and are involved in the business of providing power, it’s not a newly introduced concept.

              But it is a completely worthless and expensive concept as the facts show.

        • marty mars 8.3.1.3

          all Māori attributes are exclusive to one race

          Oh pete remember it was only a few nights ago that you accepted you stir it up just for your own weird pleasure, as part of your plan.

          “I am one with Māori on water” is patronising, pretentious and blatant disinformation when your real agenda is understood, and it is, don’t worry about that.

        • weka 8.3.1.4

          I should be able to have similar feelings about water that Māori do, shouldn’t I? Or are you trying to claim that all Māori attributes are exclusive to one race?

           
          Please give us a list of the the ways that Maori feel about water that you think you share with them. You haven’t actually said yet.

      • Spiritfree 8.3.2

        And saying that water belongs to Maori *isn’t* racially divisive? Lord, give me strength.

        Actually, the clouds in the sky belong to Maori, also the updrafts and wind. This is set out under the terms of the Treaty of Waitangi. So it should by now be very clear that every time a plane takes off, it’s owners should pay big bucks to Iwi-dom, because the plane takes advantage of something that belongs to one racial grouping. Who aren’t the slightest bit racist in claiming that. And let me tell you this: anyone who says that the plane’s owners shouldn’t pay is racist.

        • bad12 8.3.2.1

          Spiritfree, the text of your reply is a plainly stupid knee-jerk reaction, as Maori have made no such claim,

          Article Two of the Treaty of Waitangi gives to Maori the full,exclusive, and, undisturberd use of their Lands,Estates and other Properties,

          At the time of the signing of the Treaty Maori had in no way been dispossessed of their property rights to rivers and lakes by either force of arms or legislation,

          Article Two of the Treaty also gives the Crown the sole right of purchase of any of that ‘property’ at a price that Maori agree too,

          Hence,the Crown has never bought from Maori the rivers and lakes upon which sit the facilities for power generation,

          So,other then legislation whereby the Crown gave unto itself the power to build such facilities of electricity generation upon the beds of rivers and lakes it neither purchased from or legislated out of the hands of the Maori owners, the Treaty of Waitangi is the sole legal document which sets out the ‘ownership’ of such rivers and lakes,

          Having neither stolen,bought,or legislated the rivers and lakes out of the estates of the possession of Maori who at the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi were in possession of them and thus guaranteed such ‘possession’ to attempt now to sell to any third party part or all of such rivers and lakes must breach article two of the Treaty…

      • Vicky32 8.3.3

        yay just what is needed more attempted racial division by pete

        Pot. Kettle. Black. Numbnuts…

    • weka 8.4

      PG, your blog post shows that you still have almost no understanding of the issues at stake.
       
      Of course we all want to have a say in how water is managed. But the truth is that at the moment most of us don’t. That’s why dairy farmers can pollute rivers and it takes regional councils years to step up and intervene. It’s how the Clyde Dam got built. It’s why didymo was allowed to spread into so many SI rivers. It’s also why we now pay exorbitant rates for electricity.
       
      You’re also missing the point about governance. There are already bodies that represent YOU (local and govt) who have some control over water. Maori, as treaty partners, are saying (have been saying for some times now) that they want their rights acknowledged. This isn’t about individuals feeling like they have some control, it’s about which groups legitimately get to say what happens to water. Either you support that Te Tiriti gives Maori the right to be a treaty partner, or you don’t.
       
      The main difference I can see between you and pretty much everyone else in this thread is that everyone else either trusts Maori to do no worse than Pakeha with their power, and/or considers we will be better of with having water managed by Maori, and/or believes that the principle of Te Tiriti is worth upholding even where we may lose out on other ways. You on the other hand come across as being ok with some powerholders controlling water as long as they are white.
       
      Not very nice considering what it will be like when you have no power is it?

      • Pete George 8.4.1

        You on the other hand come across as being ok with some powerholders controlling water as long as they are white.

        That seems to be another assumption, to fit your prejudices?

        I’ve never said anything like that, and don’t think anything like that.

  9. Morrissey 9

    http://www.rt.com/news/assange-pakistan-us-client-masters-relations-130/
    Bin Laden, Al-Qaeda were trained by CIA 20 years ago

    The main enemy of the US—Al-Qaeda—was once financed and trained by Washington to fight the Soviet Union, Pakistani politician Imran Khan reminded Julian Assange. But after 9/11 it suddenly became an enemy and Pakistan people refused to accept it.

    In the ninth episode of his show Julian Assange talks to Imran Khan, whose political party was ignored for years and which US State Department cables called “Pakistan’s one-man party.”
    But today he is a front-runner in Pakistani politics. Nowadays his party counts far more than “one member” as electable people come to join him.

    But when, Khan, a former captain of Pakistan’s victorious cricket team, created his party from humble origins no one paid attention, no one supported him. That was so till Khan’s party, along with a few others, boycotted the elections in 2008, because they “were manipulated by the Bush administration,” and until his predictions turned out to be obvious.

    Khan has always warned that elections would be “a disaster for the people of Pakistan” and that Pakistani leaders were turncoats telling Americans how great they were, but at the same time giving their own citizens a different opinion.

    “The War on Terror has been devastating for Pakistan,” Khan says, because 40,000 Pakistanis have been killed “fighting America’s war.” “Basically, our own army was killing our own people.”
    Imran Khan explained that about 20 years ago Osama Bin Laden and the whole of al-Qaeda were trained by the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) and CIA.

    “These people were assets of the Pakistan Army,” he said. “They were trained by the Pakistan Army and the ISI, financed by the CIA, but they were fighting the Soviets, and for a long time these groups had very close association with the Pakistan secret agencies.”

    “Now suddenly comes 9/11 and you do a 180 degrees turn,” he explained. “But it doesn’t mean that all along the way that people would have accepted this. Because here were people trained for Jihad – Jihad in this case means fighting a foreign occupation – so how were you going to convince them having indoctrinated not only these militant groups but also your own agencies, that they’re fighting foreign occupation as a religious duty.”

    “No country has ever been bombed by its own ally, as we have been bombed in this country. Never has a country’s ruling elite, for personal benefits, never have they betrayed their people as much as this elite under Musharraf and the current elite,” Khan says.

    Imran Khan says that the US operation on Pakistan’s soil in May 2011 against Osama bin Laden was the “ultimate humiliation” for the state, which was “sacrificing for the US.” It turned out that “our ally did not trust us and actually came and killed someone on our own soil. It was that the two factors combined: the sacrifices, and secondly, here is an ally which – are we a friend or an enemy?”

    Khan says the “client-master relationship” between the US and Pakistan, when the latter is “a hired gun, being paid to kill America’s enemies” should be reviewed.

    “The only thing that the Americans should be told is that “Look, there will be no terrorism from our side,” he says. The relationship with the US should be based on “dignity and self-respect” instead of the “client-master” model.

    http://www.rt.com/news/assange-pakistan-us-client-masters-relations-130/

  10. captain hook 10

    To the Maori the land and the water just were.
    Only with the advent of grasping venal victorian rugged individuals who are psychologically incapable of looking at anything without putting a price on it did the question of pricing natural assets assume any importance.
    and of course they want if for themselves.

  11. John Connor 11

    Master of Being
    slave to determination

    master of destiny
    slave to history

    master of faith
    slave to priest

    master of wisdom
    slave to “truths”

    master of emotions
    slave to thoughts

    master of thoughts
    slave to stories

    master of fear
    slave to guilt

    master of reason
    slave to morality

    master of happiness
    slave to contentment

    master of sadness
    slave to loss

    master of awareness
    slave to denial

    master of surprise
    slave to excitement

    master of anger
    slave to outrage

    master of interest
    slave to boredom

    master of disgust
    slave to contempt

    master of anticipation
    slave to obsession

    master of security
    slave to exchange

    master of shelter
    slave to lender

    master of diet
    slave to process sugar and fat

    master of warmth
    slave to generation

    master of apparel
    slave to sweatshop

    master of gold
    slave to mine

    master of activity
    slave to compulsion

    master of passion
    slave to obsession

    master of aggression
    slave to hostility

    master of curiosity
    slave to addiction

    master of achievement
    slave to recognition

    master of affiliation
    slave to status

    master of autonomy
    slave to loneliness

    master of nurturance
    slave to control

    master of exhibition
    slave to fame

    master of order
    slave to geometry

    master of dominance
    slave to authority

    master of play
    slave to rules

    master of universe
    slave to electron

    master of nature
    slave to extinction

    master of water
    slave to thirst

    master of breath
    slave to lungs

    master of land
    slave to fence

    master of home
    slave to ancestors

    master of time
    slave to clock

    master of motion
    slave to road

    master of learning
    slave to curriculum

    master of labour
    slave to contract

    master of learning
    slave to medium

    master of profession
    slave to form

    master of role
    slave to economics

    master of innovation
    slave to tradition

    slaves built monuments
    slaves built roads
    slaves mine rock
    slaves carry water
    slaves chop wood
    slaves shepherd flock
    slaves built alter
    slaves bear tribute
    slaves rear children
    slaves write programme
    slaves attack other
    slaves pick crop

    Slave elect Master
    Slave buried with Master

    Slave of future
    Slave of present

    Master of Change
    Slave to inevitable

    Master of Ego
    Slave to Self

    John Elijah

    • Uturn 11.1

      +1

      yet here we are, addicted and permanently wedged between what should be and what is. Even the most accomplished urban hermit has to go outside for food. That’s when the problems begin.

      There’s a story of a master of life and a disciple travelling a mountain road. He comes to a tree and rests in its shade. While he rests a carpenter passes and sees the tree, but does not chop it down, because, as he remarks to the master, it is so knobbly and knotted it isn’t worth the effort. The master says to the disciple, “Today we have seen a useless tree left to live out all the years given to it because it is so useless.”

      That evening the master and his disciple come to a man’s house and stay the night. The man is excited by the master’s presence and tells his son to kill a goose for dinner. The son says, “There is one goose that can cackle and the other has always been silent, which should I kill?” The father tells him to kill the one that cannot cackle.

      The disciple says to the master, “These two days we have seen a tree that wasn’t useful left to live out its life and goose who wasn’t fit for purpose lose it’s life because of it. Which is the best way for people to be?”

      The amused master said, “Clearly somewhere between useless and useful would be the sensible course, but this too would be certain death.”.

      Then he said something similar to your list above. Then he said how he thought it should be. How does John Elijah say it should be?

    • prism 11.2

      Cripes John, you trying to build a Statute of Liberty out of your names and lists on this here thread?

    • Ad 11.3

      Just wondering if you could improve your master-slave relationship to theory.

      Perhaps a bit of Allen Ginsberg’s O Master might help please your Binary Master?

  12. Dr Terry 12

    Here’s hoping the usual running battle with Pete George has terminated for today! Pete will be bathing in all the attention he receives!

    • McFlock 12.1

      I felt that today’s attempt was more lame than most. Pity, because he seemed to have put more effort into it than usual.

    • Vicky32 12.2

      Here’s hoping the usual running battle with Pete George has terminated for today! Pete will be bathing in all the attention he receives!

      Considering the testerical accusations of racism he’s received, I’d be very surprised if he was basking. In his shoes I would be (and thanks to a pair of complete lunatics, I have been) projectile vomiting.

  13. John Connor 13

    By the way,

    CHINA Roads. Geography. Trucks. Truck Roads.
    not 4 car so much in near future.

    What makes the programmers and consumers “think” like machines -statistical and probabilistic algorithms implicated in everything machine -fridges that talk to the supermarket distribution centre logistics-after people seeing feedback loop marketing)-(Supermarkets moving to MARKET and other nonsense including cheap appliances)

    including “risk management” all the way up to Hedge Fund Fools.

    THE MACHINE

    the machine is not HUMAN BEING

    FREE
    The more CREATIVITY u give away the more you deconstruct the prostitution of ART which far outweighs dissemination.

    Sooo,
    Lets consider some sort of Socialist , for want of a better word unfortunately,

    MULTI-CULTURAL

    PARADISE

    EVOLVED

    from the MONOCULTURAL,

    “TRADE PROTECTIONIST”

    PARADISE

    Of the 1950s

    One of the most relevant international affairs commentators i have seen in the recent present suggested the option for NZ, rather than be swept up in the tide of globalism and its impending events was as a FACILITATING NATION because of it location and multiple RELATIONSHIPS

    ala SWISS , i believe he referenced.

    http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=fonzie&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=hRACUKr5LJHBiQfB_MHtBw&ved=0CF8QsAQ&biw=1093&bih=549

  14. We are entering an extremly dangerous area when start to determine,the innocence or guilt of an accused person by gallop -poll .As was carried out by the Dom this week regarding the Scott Guy case, I have no doubt that Garth McVicar and his crew of fanatics are behind this move.
    He is also trying to take away the right of silence from the accused. Just imagine how the less educated and vunerable would be treated if this came about. Its bad enough at the moment with the law favouring the rich without giving the better of another tool to bash workers and lowpaid families with.
    Its time McVicar was shut up for good ,this dangerous man has too much say for his Fascist like opinions.

    • MrSmith 14.1

      Couldn’t agree more Postman. 

      The McVicar’s of the world should be flogged daily. the only problem is he would probably enjoy it. He and his like are far more dangerous than we think, it’s time people start to challenge him before he becomes to powerful, or better yet, someone snaps him in bed being flogged by a transvestite dressed up as a prisoner . ‘Know disrespect to Transvestites intended.’

  15. prism 15

    Cross country harrier-ing after Petey again. Go Petey you foxy little bunny.

  16. Draco T Bastard 16

    And California starts to (legally) recognise the actual relationships that humans engage in rather than forcing the unnatural nuclear family on everyone:

    A California bill allowing children to have more than two parents is moving through the legislature. Its passage could fuel similar legislative efforts in other states to help address expanding definitions of family and parenthood brought on by same-sex marriage and advances in reproductive technologies.

    The legislation, which has the support of gay and lesbian groups as well as some child-advocacy organizations, would give California judges explicit authority to grant parenthood status to three or more people, provided that such a move is “required to protect the best interests of the child.”

    The bill was passed by the state senate …

    Don’t like the last part required to protect the best interests of the child as it puts arbitrary limits on the family but it’s certainly a step in the right direction.

  17. captain hook 17

    SST steals a march.
    they noted today that Kweewee will go on RNZ to opine on Sunny BIll but not about politics.
    something very fishy here.

  18. mike e 19

    J90 BofA in serious trouble after a string of scandals it has been brought to te brink by losses at no surprises Merrill Lynch (subsidiary)’Shonkey if he still has shares will have lost over 1/2 his $5 million worth of shares. boo hoo

  19. Herodotus 20

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10819499
    In January, they bought a two-bedroom townhouse and embarked on a do-up, selling on June 24 for $430,000, making around $100,000 tax-free.
    How can this not be considered worthy of the attention of the IRD ?
    Forget CGT how about the IRD policing the existing tax rules of trading in property.

    • Nick 20.1

      I know people who have bought and sold on rising markets, never worked and treated the capital gains as income. When I say never worked they worked hard renovating and selling, their labour being untaxed. I would regard that as employment, wonder what the IRD would think?

    • weka 20.2

      There is a limit to how often you can do that. Can’t remember exactly, but a builder I used to know would buy a run down house, live in it while he did it up, and then sell it on. He had to be careful not to do that too many times or he’d have to pay tax. I’m thinking it was something like once every few years???
       
      Not a bad way to make a living, but I agree the tax avoidance is wrong. CGT might sort that out. What are proposed rules – eg how many houses are you allowed to own over what time before CGT would kick in?

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    No amount of spin from Hekia Parata can hide the fact that per-child funding for early childhood education has been steadily decreasing under the National government, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “In the 2009/10 year early childhood services received ...
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  • Million dollar houses put homeownership out of reach of middle New Zealand
    35% of New Zealanders now live in places where the average house costs over a million dollars, and it’s killing the Kiwi dream of owning your own place, says Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. Latest QV stats show that Queenstown ...
    1 week ago
  • Opportunity for political parties to back Kiwi-made and Kiwi jobs
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    1 week ago
  • Solid Energy must open the drift
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    1 week ago
  • 20,000 at risk students “missing”
    A briefing to the Minister of Education reveals 20,000 at-risk students can’t be found, undermining claims by Hekia Parata that a new funding model would ensure additional funding reached students identified as at-risk, says Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins. ...
    1 week ago
  • Crime continues to rise
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  • Treasury fritters $10 million on failed state house sell off
    The Treasury has wasted $10 million in two years on the National Government's flawed state house sell off programme, including nearly $5.5 million on consultants, says Labour Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. "New Zealand needs more state housing than ever, with ...
    1 week ago
  • National slow to learn new trade lessons post TPPA
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    GreensBy Barry Coates
    1 week ago
  • Skilled migrant wages plummeting under National
    Wages have plummeted for people with skilled migrant visas working in low-skilled occupations, driving down wages for workers in a number of industries, says Labour’s Immigration Spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway. “Documents acquired by Labour under the Official Information Act reveal that ...
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  • Child abuse apology needed
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  • Reserve Bank again highlights National’s housing failure
    National’s failure to deal with the housing crisis in New Zealand is once again being exposed by the Reserve Bank today, in a scathing assessment of the Government’s response, says Labour Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson “Governor Wheeler is clearly worried ...
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  • Palm Oil Labelling: Possible Progress?
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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers
    1 week ago
  • National: Fails to achieve
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  • Faster into Homes – a new pathway for first home buyers
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  • Selling off our state housing stock isn’t working for NZers
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    GreensBy Marama Davidson
    1 week ago
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  • Key’s priorities the real ‘load of nonsense’
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  • Free Speech and Hate Speech
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  • Young Kiwis struggling under record mortgage debt
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    1 week ago
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    GreensBy Marama Davidson
    2 weeks ago