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Open Mike 15/08/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 15th, 2017 - 81 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

81 comments on “Open Mike 15/08/2017”

  1. amirite 1

    We need at least 2000 new state houses built every year to catch up with the rise in homelessness, the Salvation Army says http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/337179/nz-not-catching-up-to-social-housing-need

    Meanwhile the existing social housing stock is in a dismal state, mushrooms are growing on walls, slugs are crawling in through holes https://donotlink.it/G50l

    • savenz 1.1

      Essential reading as a warning about what happens when the state decides to sell off a countries state houses because they are too lazy and incompetent to fix them up…


      • popexplosion 1.1.1

        Tories are assumed to be competent on the economy, management, but they are not, they believe that the market will deliver and so have no capacity for governance as none needed, the market will solve all problems duh. Historically the only reason they have been re-elected is they lived in a time of lowering energy prices that naturally grows the economy, and then entered a period of financial smoke and mirrors that hides the real economy.

        Take Auckland, in any major city globally there would be a integrated public transport system that also networks with regional centers. Not so Auckland, to get to Hamilton you need to walk up to the casino! or down to the foreshore! oh don’t goto the rail station it runs once a week! This is indicative of Tory management style of leaving growth to markets.

        • Nick

          Narratives are the core of perception.

          Insight for people who haven’t the time or inclination to look at actual people, actual events or actual problems.

          Nats are great managers. They are because they are.

          Establishing a positive epithet is essential. New, enthusiastic, young and full of dreams and ideas for a better New Zealand.

          We have to endlessly reinforce the Jacinda story.

    • Nick 1.2

      If only we had 90,000 young people not in work and not in training, we might just be able to do something about the deteriorating social housing stock and so much more..

  2. One Anonymous Bloke 2

    Excellent article on the Just World “Theory”.

    Some readers may recognise themselves:

    “…the sight of an innocent person suffering without possibility of reward or compensation motivated people to devalue the attractiveness of the victim in order to bring about a more appropriate fit between her fate and her character.” [M. Lerner]

    …people who have a strong tendency to believe in a just world also tend to be more religious, more authoritarian, more conservative, more likely to admire political leaders and existing social institutions, and more likely to have negative attitudes toward underprivileged groups…

    …the result may be the abdication of personal responsibility, acquiescence in the face of suffering and misfortune, and indifference towards injustice.

    Although why they call the National Party’s core values a “theory” is beyond me.

    • DH 2.1

      “Some readers may recognise themselves:”

      I bet you have no idea how ironic that statement is….

      • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.1

        …the research suggests that humans have a need to bring their beliefs about what is right into conformity with the objective reality they encounter–and that they will work to achieve consistency either by modifying their beliefs or attempting to modify that reality. By becoming more conscious of our own tendencies, we may be more inclined to take the latter approach.

        I’m more inclined to take the latter approach, thanks.

    • Eco maori 2.2

      I would just like to apologise to any one I have offended by stereotyping all rich people as discriminator there are a lot of nice people whom have worked hard and managed there money well my spelling is limited and the spell check is not that good so I use basic words its the same as Maori not all of us are BAD

      • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1

        Don’t mean to rain on your confession, it’s just that working hard isn’t the way people become rich, or we’d see a lot more rich nurses and less golf.

        I don’t really think that anyone is “bad” in that sense: one of the conclusions of the Lerner and Milgram experiments is that everyone has the capacity to do evil things.

        There was certainly protest by the subjects with threats to walk away, and pleas to check on the health of the learner, but the researcher, with his stoic demeanor, wearing the magic lab coat that resembles that of a respected doctor (or a teenager working behind the photos counter at your local CVS or Walgreens), simply said “please continue” or “the experiment requires that you continue.” These words in this situation are apparently all it takes.

        • AB

          “working hard isn’t the way people become rich”
          Owning income-producing assets, extracting rents, capital gain, inheritance, ticket-clipping transactions between 3rd-parties, using market power to implement extortionate pricing, externalising business costs onto the public (corporate welfare), belonging to an elite class of managers who are able to extract salaries completely disproportionate to any empirically-discernible value they add.

          These are much more common ways to become rich than working hard. Broadly they are non-labour income that doesn’t come from actual ‘work’ at all (hard or otherwise).
          Though I’d be inclined to say that people have to work reasonably hard to get themselves into a position to take some of these ‘opportunities’. But no harder than a nurse as you say.

          People know all this in their bones. But it’s striking how often they reflexively bow the knee and pay homage to the “hard work” myth.

          • Eco maori

            Yes I agree O N B and AD .I just did not want to be a bigot as for the definition of rich to me if I owned my own home had a electric car and solar power and a veggie garden I’d be rich I was trying to say in one of my blogs that everyone has a different view on reality

    • Carolyn_nth 3.1

      Actually, it sounds like Trotter thinks the GP is retreating back to the margins, where they can be acceptable to a small group of those living in comfort in the leafy suburbs.

      Trotter is putting the boot into the GP social justice section and announcing the demise of their campaign against poverty, and the shunting of Marama Davidson into oblivion.

      And your comment supports commentary that kicks the GP into the margins of the election campaign, and marginalises the related campaign against poverty and for substantial changes to our social security system.

      • Ad 3.1.1

        May or may not be the right lesson, but they’re learning.

        • Carolyn_nth

          Trotter’s version of what they are said to be learning is not getting a very positive response so far in the comments under the same post on The Daily Blog.

          • KJT

            Trotter. like a lot of the New Zealand political establishment, is comfortable with the Labour/National duopoly and resent upstart challengers like the Greens.

            “How dare they take Labours votes”, is not an uncommon sentiment.

            No perception that votes are earned, not an entitlement.

            • greywarshark

              How does that musing of yours relate to Trotter’s surprise and dismay at the apparent downplaying of Metiria’s move against structural poverty?

          • Bill

            That Trotter piece is definitely and quite unnecessarily putting the boot in.

            But I did get the impression that Shaw was “bottling it” during that re-launch speech.

            We’ll see…

            • tc

              Trotter is a tamed establishment ‘leftie’ like pagani and williamson doing a job.

              Positioned to give the appearance of balance whilst undermining, saw straight through that media poodle years ago.

              • Bill

                I see him more as a drunk man with a hammer – misses often. But when he hits he ‘wellies’ it. 😉

              • Nick

                Not equivalent. Pagani gets on talk shows as a “former Labour candidate” but in reality she has been neo-lib for at least a decade.

                Chris in person can give underwhelming opinions, but his writing is often both elegant and persuasive.

                If not always consistent.

            • WILD KATIPO

              I don’t the Greens are putting aside social justice issues, more like a temporary tactical withdrawal to detooth a toxic media. And I don’t think you could ever sideline Marama Davidson from this , either.

            • dukeofurl

              Trotter has ‘critical view’ in his commentary. he doesnt do these things with rose tinted glasses.
              The poll shocks means they have grab back as many well off left leaning voters as they can who live in leafy urban enclaves.

            • Nick

              It wasn’t the time for a two barrels on benefit poverty.

              Allow the dust to settle or the Greens will be able to talk of nothing else.

      • patricia bremner 3.1.2

        Trotter appears to now support TOP.

    • weka 3.2

      Looks to me like being narked that no-one got behind the rallying cry to avenge Metiria. Of course we didn’t, because avenging Metiria is macho politics and the Greens don’t do that. For very good reasons.

      I also think Trotter is clueless about Shaw’s position on poverty and he simply can’t allow that Shaw is genuine because the strategy is invisible to Trotter. In other words, just clueless still about what green politics is.

      I knew exactly what Shaw was apologising for, and I know why he did it. Why doesn’t Trotter? Or more to the point, why doesn’t Trotter take the time to talk to people who do know instead of grandstanding his own ignorance? That’s not a rhetorical question.

      • Nick 3.2.1

        Chris is a bit trigger-happy. But that comes with passion.

        And as a columnist he can be “publish or die”, sometimes, which can put him on more than one side of an issue.

        However, I defy you to name a commentator as consistantly interesting.

  3. Sanctuary 4

    When are Labour replacing the old signs?

    • mac1 4.1

      You mean the ones with the new Prime Minister and Minister of Labour on them? 😉

      To me the signs are a reminder that political change within a party can be achieved without evisceration; that when your time comes to step down, then you stand alongside the new leader, to help manage the transition; and possibly most importantly, the party is greater than the leader; that ideas, ideals, fundamental beliefs are crucial.

      • patricia bremner 4.1.1

        I agree Mac1. People don’t want to accept that Andrew Little acted in the best interests of his party.

        We have become so accepting of selfish motives in government, we find it hard to believe that.

        Jacinda said “Andrew will be on the front bench of any government I lead, we need him.”

        That spoke volumes to me of a “new start”.

        No dirty politics and no skeletons.

    • The Fairy Godmother 4.2

      This Saturday.

  4. Carolyn_nth 5

    Jane Kelsey on The Daily Blog today, saying the TPP is not dead.

    She publishes her notes on the latest responses of several NZ political parties on the TPP (Nats didn’t give a view). David Parker for Labour seems to avoid directly saying whether Labour is for or against a revamped TPP.

    kelsey concludes:

    We know where the Greens and Maori Party stand. But would they make the TPPA a coalition deal breaker?

    New Zealand First has been an uncompromising critic of the TPPA – but would Winston repeat what he did when, as Foreign Minister in coalition with Labour, he became best friends with Condee Rice and called for a US-NZ FTA? What about potential leader in waiting Shane Jones, who is pro-TPPA and PACER-plus?

    And what about Labour? David Parker confirmed Labour’s pragmatism. Its narrow grounds for opposing the TPPA may not survive into government, unless Labour voters force the Party to take a strong public position of rejecting the zombie TPPA.

    • Craig H 5.1

      I don’t want to see what the TPPA became, but if a proper free trade agreement can be made without all the extraneous BS, that’s fine with me.

      • dukeofurl 5.1.1

        They are never about free trade anymore. Even to use the provisions means you are well resourced large company.

      • WILD KATIPO 5.1.2

        You mean …’ Investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) or investment court system (ICS) is a system through which individual companies can sue countries for alleged discriminatory practices ‘ ?

        Investor-state dispute settlement – Wikipedia

        There’s no way I will ever see some company overruling our sovereign elected government.

        The hell with that notion.

      • To get free-trade we actually need to get rid of the FTAs as they’re more about protecting big business than trade.

        Much better for each individual country to set standards that other countries have to meet before will trade with them. Such standards as similar minimum wage, similar minimum working conditions and similar environmental protections. In other words, making sure that all costs are properly accounted for.

        The result of this should be the minimisation of trade as each country develops it’s own economy.

  5. Craig H 6


    A long but interesting read about unconscious bias in policy-making, particularly around the bias toward Pakeha heterosexual nuclear families where one of the parents (probably the male) is the primary earner.

  6. KJT 7

    “Free trade agreements” haven’t been about free trade for decades now.

    They have been charters for corporate and monopoly rights.

    Extending corporate power to extract “rents” for patents and copyright and to take Governments to kangaroo courts for loss of monopoly profits are the antithesis of “free markets” and “free trade”.

    A large part of the quick rise in US prosperity, after the revolution, was because they told British rentiers, land owners and lenders to “take a hike”. And then they protected and subsidised their own industry.

    Now they are ensuring other countries cannot do the same.

    • Tamati Tautuhi 7.1

      Free Trade Agreements these days appear to be anything but Free Trade Agreements?

    • Craig H 7.2

      It’s entirely possible that no FTAs will be up to snuff for all the reasons you’ve outlined – can’t rule that out.

    • Stuart Munro 7.4

      Chang Ha Joon has an interesting snippet on the US in Bad Samaritans – for over a century the US was the largest copyright breaker, chiefly of British manufactured items. Enforcing other country’s copyrights is a mug’s game.

  7. Muttonbird 8

    CEO of KidsCan, Julie Chapman, is not referring to the National Party and their supporters when she says more people are speaking up of the poor.


    On 23 September remember the National Party and their supporters only care about themselves. They will continue to turn a blind eye to struggling communities and must go.

  8. Sanctuary 9

    Goodness, National has gone fully bananas of late. A panic-stricken knee jerk bit of law and order they’ve dredged from the past – a boot camp scheme everyone agrees is tried and fail, and hysterical attacks on the water levy which just confirms to the general public that National run the country in the interest of corporate farming.

    Long may their Jacinda-induced panic last!

    PS – their polling must be telling them they are hemorrhaging votes, the panic is palpable.

  9. greywarshark 10

    Just thinking of the steps to having authority and agency from a low position.
    Supplicant>Applicant>Entry>Achievement>Leadership>Philosophy parameters>Executive Opportunity.

    Where are the Greens on this line? You could say that they are only back at entry as they haven’t been a major party in Parliament, but they have had achievement with some useful, helpful, environmental policies rolled out. They have provided leadership and affected other Parties’ thinking and actions. Now they are up to philosophy parameters. Metiria thought it was time to widen their interests beyond the bounds of the middle class greenies wanting to protect birds, trees, rivers , eels and penguins.

    They are hoping they will get the executive opportunity if they just stick to their environmental knitting. But by including vulnerable people in their purview the Greens should be able to build their support, get more votes, and bring others on board who in their thousands could be working to protect the environment if Task Force Green systems could be set up, with training.

    Many Maori would enjoy going back to their marae as a temporary base while they worked on some local project. Not all would want to go back permanently, but once Maori unemployed had jobs and a bit of spare cash, they would visit more often and the whole fabric of whanau interaction would be strengthened.

    What a lot of good in just this one aspect of NZ life could happen if the Greens could stand mixing with the poorer classes. They are in fear of reverting to the dowager duchess type of charity where you distribute your spare potato peelings to the needy – organically grown of course.

    • Nick 10.1

      The number one thing is to believe we can make a difference as a community.

      If we believe that, we will start to look for solutions and opportunities.

      If you take a neo-lib approach and imagine that all you can do is deregulate greed, that is all you will get, to the massive disadvantage of the people as a whole.

  10. Ad 11

    Taylor Swift vindicated.

    I think Taylor Swift’s win in the groping case is going to be something of a benchmark for harassment outside the workplace. She only sought $1 in damages, and a jury awarded her the win:


  11. greywarshark 12

    Spoiler alert.
    For those with Game of Thrones magnetism, here is the latest cover of the upcoming series.

    I’m afraid that, predictably, seeing the title had ‘sex’ in it I automatically was magnetised to it. I do like chocolate too!

  12. savenz 13

    Last year was the most perilous ever for people defending their community’s land, natural resources or wildlife, with new research showing that environmental defenders are being killed at the rate of almost four a week across the world.

    Two hundred environmental activists, wildlife rangers and indigenous leaders trying to protect their land were killed in 2016, according to the watchdog group Global Witness – more than double the number killed five years ago.

    And the frequency of killings is only increasing as 2017 ticks by, according to data provided exclusively to the Guardian, with 98 killings identified in the first five months of this year.

    The defenders: recording the deaths of environmental defenders around the world
    Read more
    John Knox, UN special rapporteur on human rights and the environment, said: “Human rights are being jettisoned as a culture of impunity is developing.

    “There is now an overwhelming incentive to wreck the environment for economic reasons. The people most at risk are people who are already marginalised and excluded from politics and judicial redress, and are dependent on the environment. The countries do not respect the rule of law. Everywhere in the world, defenders are facing threats.

    “There is an epidemic now, a culture of impunity, a sense that anyone can kill environmental defenders without repercussions, eliminate anyone who stands in the way. It [comes from] mining, agribusiness, illegal logging and dam building.”


    • greywarshark 13.1

      The magnetism of excess money brings power and luxuries and the luxury of choosing when, what, how to do things or not. And in such few hands in the world, the intoxication of their power permeates their whole lives and that’s where the trickle down theory actually works. The power moves down through the chain, each one fed from the same source which will seem very distant, so they never know the connections. At the bottom it is not money and necessities that the trickle down brings, it is the laser beam of power with strong effect.

      Those neolib stitchers-up and their acolytes have opened a Pandora’s box and we can never close it again. And trying to find ways to alleviate its effects can cost you everything, and continue to consume your village, your family, your memory.
      Perhaps we can make a difference though, and try to do something principled to assist these heroes and sacrifices and achieve some goals to be proud of. It gives us something meaningful to do while we live out our lives anyway.

      Here are the two plotters who managed to divorce the ideas of the mind and the reality of life and treat the reality as something to objectify and the theory as something to deify.

      Hayek and Friedman and Monetary Policy
      Hayek on Politics, Gold and Milton Friedman

      Milton Friedman on Greed
      Milton Friedman on Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom

  13. mosa 14

    Good to see Gareth Morgan calling Horrible Hosking out , it’s about time !!


    • 😈

      That was good.

    • tc 14.2

      Excellent and lets hope the hosk responds. Id like to see this one run a bit.

    • mary_a 14.3

      mosa (14) … Excellent response from Gareth Morgan, which demonstrates how ignorant Hosking really is. Every time he opens his drivelling Natz gob, his lack of intellect comes through loud and clear.

      I look forward to see how Morgan goes with Hosking moderating the combined minor parties’ debates.

  14. Cinny 15

    Coleman has failed once again, alcohol lobbyists reign supreme in the national party. It appears the profits of the booze companies are more important than the health of our nation.
    National are the ones who placed booze in the supermarkets and lowered the drinking age, they are told the damage re alcohol/depression/suicide/domestic violence/child abuse etc etc and advised to do something about it, but they do nothing, nada.

    “Cheap booze is a cause of depression and aid to suicide and there is a pressing need to rethink its availability and price, the Government has been told by the Prime Minister’s chief science adviser.

    While much of the focus of the new initiatives is on improving resilience and decision-making, none of the 17 new initiatives specifically address the role of alcohol in suicide and depression.

    That is despite Gluckman’s advice that a re-evaluation of alcohol in society is urgently needed.”


    Personally I’m not anti booze, but I am anti the devastation that it does to many lives.

  15. Whispering Kate 16

    I have just read a marvellous piece by Julie Chapman CEO of KidsCan in today’s Herald, about the measure of child poverty in NZ and how society is starting to understand that having a job and a home doesn’t mean that you are not in poverty. That we have this new poor of employed people with two kids who still are not earning enough to pay rent, clothe their kids and feed them adequately.

    It really is a must to read.


  16. greywarshark 17

    The Conservative Party coming out with the same authoritarian, preachy crud about parents and families. Where would our society be if parents smartened up their act, who would be handy to put the boot into?

    They are talking about Boot Farms, which might have a place, though not a panacea.

    We need dependable parents, not dependent parents, and the government can’t raise our kids. It can, however, and should, support local community groups who have a track record of effectively assisting parents who are struggling, and struggling parents should be given every encouragement to avail themselves of that assistance.

    Research is clear that strong loving families with a mum and a dad provide the best outcomes for kids and the best outcomes for society. Conservative Party’s Policies are focused on strengthening this natural family unit for the good of the nation.
    See on Scoop http://community.scoop.co.nz/2017/08/boot-camps-wont-work-our-boot-farms-will/

  17. Anne 18

    Listen to and look at this first class bitch from across the Tasman! Makes Paula Bennett seem like a pussy cat. Jacinda Ardern has called her out for making a false claim. She has called the Australian Ambassador into her office for an urgent meeting. A major diplomatic incident in the making?

    Jacinda has got to do more. She must stand up to Julie Bishop and demand an apology. Nothing less will suffice.


    • mary_a 18.1

      @ ANNE (17) … and watch our rabid attack msm make a meal of this one! Larry Williams got the ball rolling, when I accidentally tuned into his afternoon programme. His opening shots were at Labour and Jacinda Ardern, making a bit thing out of nothing, to appease his Natz master Herr Joyce!

    • mosa 18.2

      Anne i have watched Bishop in action before she is a vicious woman and is trying with her comments to affect our domestic election campaign by making ridiculous statements.

      As for interfering in another countries politics ……………what about their right wing campaigning in Aussie for ex pat kiwis to vote for John Key at the time of our General election campaigns.

      F.F.S. !!!!!

  18. Whispering Kate 19

    Julie Bishop is getting bitten on the bum, they treat kiwis over there like shit and deny them everything that their taxes pay for so if it means this guy has to step down and bring down their Government – well its poetic justice. Their immigration laws concerning us, their neighbours is appalling. I hope Adhern tells her to piss off. Why do we have to put up with this crap coming from them. They are well past being our friends and neighbours, we need them like a hole in the head. Their treatment of boat people is as bad as the very worst of despotic countries. The ANZAC pact is a farce.

  19. Nick 20

    So sorry to Bishop you can’t work with the incoming NZ Government.

    It would have been so much better to do the “Jump how high” Nat thing and allow you to go on lying to your people and kicking ours in the guts at every opportunity.

    Australia has always hated New Zealand on the world stage. We are the little cousin who reminds the great powers that we are (and they are, by extension) inconsequential in world terms, just as they thought they’d cracked into the highest levels.

    Looks like another reality check on the way.

    In the meanwhile, a bit more from the ALP would seem in order. And the only way it will happen is by a top level call.

    There is too much stupid prejudice against Kiwis in Aussie already to wait for a change of heart at grass roots level, even if we bring down an unpopular government.

  20. Sumsuch 21

    I disagree with your disaffection with Chrs Trotter. Unless you can suggest another voice? For us? No, no replacements.

    Despite his pragmatism in the moment.

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