Open mike 16/01/2023

52 comments on “Open mike 16/01/2023 ”

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1. tsmithfield 1

   16 January 2023 at 7:12 am

   How is peace with Russia possible when they do this sort of thing?
   • Francesca 1.1

     16 January 2023 at 8:32 am

     Dunno.

     What are the precedents?

     Dresden firebombing killing 25,000 people in WW2 ,perpetrated by joint US/UK airforce

     Tokyo napalm firebombing killing 100,000 in single night , perpetrated by the USairforce in WW2

     Napalm bombing in Vietnam

     Ditto Korea, reducing the Koreans in the north to living underground

     More recently Raqqa 1,600 civilians killed

     https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/coalition-strikes-killed-1600-civilians-raqqa-report/story?id=62629765

     Mosul

     https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2017/04/bombed-in-their-homes-civilians-in-mosul-blame-reckless-coalition-forces/

     How can we bear to consider these people our allies?

     By practising selective morality aka calculating where our economic interests lie
     • Macro 1.1.1

       16 January 2023 at 8:43 am

       What about your whataboutism?

       This is a despicable attack by Russia and whatabouting doesn't make it any less so.
       • Francesca 1.1.1.1

         16 January 2023 at 9:46 am

         TSmithfield asked how was peace possible when Russia does things like this ?

         I responded by saying we have apparently come to an easy accomodation with allies who do things far more egregious than this:examples given, and somehow a peace was found.

         Result? very predictable cries about "whataboutism" Frankly guys, that is worn out and lacking any kind of credible argument

         Once again you will shriek Russian propaganda!! when I post this next link

         https://www.rt.com/russia/569890-ukraine-missile-fell-dnepr/
         • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1.1

           16 January 2023 at 9:54 am

           Even if it is true that the Ukrainians shot down a Russian missile (how dreadful of them), how does that change anything?

           After all, the Russians were targeting the Ukrainian power grid in this attack, amongst other things. That sort of action in the freezing conditions now prevailing in Ukraine could even have a worse effect in terms of human suffering.

           The Russians are very aware of the suffering they are likely to cause one way or another with this sort of behaviour targeting civilian infrastructure. So, in no way does anything you say justify the Russian action.

           The fact that you cite RT just confirms our suspicions about you.
           • Francesca 1.1.1.1.1.1

             16 January 2023 at 10:12 am

             Oh Smithfield !

             I did have a laugh at the idea of "our" suspicions
             • Jenny are we there yet …

               16 January 2023 at 11:36 am

               OK then. I will ask you directly

               Are you employed by a troll factory?

               Yes or No

               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw6Jy5MeLZo&t=2s&ab_channel=NBCNews
               • Francesca …

                 16 January 2023 at 12:52 pm

                 Yes Jenny , its hugely profitable, I've made 3000 roubles a month at least, and have a time share in fabulous dachas in Crimea.There's never any difficulty getting the money sent over either, it comes packed in those Russian dolls

                 Oh the stories I could tell you !Dancing with Putin at my wedding, the fun!,the singing! the barbecues at the Kremlin, the chess games with Lavrov !

                 And no one has ever found me out (but there are those who've had their dark suspicions!)

                 Until now!

                 Clever Jenny!
                 • Jenny are we there yet …

                   16 January 2023 at 3:34 pm

                   Yes or No
                 • Jenny are we there yet …

                   17 January 2023 at 12:31 pm

                   tsmithfield

                   16 January 2023 at 9:54 am

                   Even if it is true that the Ukrainians shot down a Russian missile (how dreadful of them), how does that change anything?….

                   …..The fact that you cite RT just confirms our suspicions about you.

                   Francesca

                   16 January 2023 at 10:12 am

                   …..I did have a laugh at the idea of "our" suspicions

                   Jenny are we there yet…

                   16 January 2023 at 11:36 am

                   OK then. I will ask you directly

                   Are you employed by a troll factory?

                   Yes or No

                   Francesca…

                   16 January 2023 at 12:52 pm

                   Yes Jenny , its hugely profitable,….

                   "Many a true word is spoken in jest" James Joyce

                   Whether or not you work for a Russian troll farm, or not is irrelevant really. The way you slurp up to the Russian war machine, the effect is the same.
             • Macro …

               16 January 2023 at 5:00 pm

               Well let's face it. Your continued appeasement for Russian atrocities does sound very much like the mantra of a useful idiot (and I use those words carefully as I was well aquainted with one in the 1960's who pestered my father relentlessly with Soviet propaganda). I know how they operated and what their belief systems were. They were totally down the rabbit hole of Soviet lies and misinformation regularly sent to them from the Russian consulate as it was then.

               My father was the President of a Union for over 20 years so they were particularly keen to get him on their side and ferment trouble. They didn't like the fact that he ignored them, and instead the Union was able to gain very good pay rates and working conditions for the members of his union without the need for constant strikes and stop works. On one occasion a National Party MP was heard to say in the House how appalled he was that these workers were earning almost as much as he!

               If only those pesky Ukrainians would see just how benign and helpful these continued bombardments form Russia are, and stop trying to shoot them down. Everything would be much so much better.
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.2

       16 January 2023 at 8:52 am

       By practising selective morality …

       Like Russia murdering = moral, west murdering = immoral. Got it.
     • tsmithfield 1.1.3

       16 January 2023 at 9:05 am

       It says a lot about you that you can brush off the horror of this situation with some sort of wierd whataboutism justification of it.

       But, putting that aside, why would the people of Ukraine be the slightest bit interested in doing any sort of peace deal with Russia when Russia behaves like this? Especially since the horror of this situation will likely just motivate the west to supply more and heavier weapons to Ukraine, thus increasing the likelihood of a Ukrainian victory.

       If you really want to see a peaceful resolution to this conflict then you should be condemning this sort of behaviour not excusing it.
     • Tony Veitch 1.1.4

       16 January 2023 at 9:24 am

       Quite right, Fransesca.

       Likewise, the siege of Constantinople in 1451 was a particularly brutal affair.

       And what about those nasty Romans sowing salt on the ruins of Carthage in 145BCE – there are plenty of examples which can be used to excuse present day barbarity.

       But it still remains barbarity!
       • Francesca 1.1.4.1

         16 January 2023 at 9:51 am

         Once again , you miss the point

         Peace is possible .,it has to be .Vietnam has apparently forgiven the genocidal assaults of the Vietnam war, or as they call it , the Resistance war against America

         In the face of our own barbarity, it seems we forgive and forget very easily
         Where is the consistency?
         Why aren’t we arming the Palestinians and applying sanctions to Israel, not that I would recommend that
         War is disgusting, and should be avoided at all costs, peace agreements implemented, but there are precious few anti war activists left anywhere in the west , not when so many livelihoods are dependent on war and other people get to do the bloodshedding
         • tsmithfield 1.1.4.1.1

           16 January 2023 at 10:04 am

           Anything is "possible''. But this sort of action by the Russians makes peace a much more difficult outcome to achieve.

           So, as I said before, if you really want to see a peaceful resolution to this conflict, you should be condemning this sort of action.

           Do you condemn it?
           • Francesca 1.1.4.1.1.1

             16 January 2023 at 10:09 am

             So, as I said before, I condemn war , because this is the sort of barbaric shit that happens in war .(see numerous examples I have given)

             Do you condemn war?
             • tsmithfield …

               16 January 2023 at 10:15 am

               Of course I condemn "war''.

               What I don't condemn is people wanting to defend their country, homes, and families against unwarranted agression from larger nations. So, in this case, I condemn war by condemning Russia.

               But, I guess you will just say the Russians are acting in "self defence" or that the US did it therefore Russia can do it, or something equally inane.
               • tsmithfield …

                 16 January 2023 at 10:44 am

                 Further to that, "condemning war" in the way that you would have it in this conflict would mean allowing the Russian army to roll in with its tanks uncontested and Ukraine capitulating in order to avoid war.

                 Am I correct in that interpretation?
                 • Francesca …

                   16 January 2023 at 11:13 am

                   No , you're not

                   I've already said it .The war could have been prevented .The Minsk peace agreements signed between the LPR, DPR, and Ukraine was a path to peace, but as Poroshenko boasted, there was never any intention of implementing it , and the plan was to take Donbas by force

                   No negotiations , no compromise
               • Francesca …

                 16 January 2023 at 11:09 am

                 Well then , you would approve the Donbas people of resisting attack by Western Ukraine , since 2014, only I've never heard that from you
                 • Sanctuary …

                   16 January 2023 at 11:21 am

                   "…Well then , you would approve the Donbas people of resisting attack by Western Ukraine , since 2014, only I've never heard that from you…"

                   A bizarre statement. Where is this "Western Ukraine" you speak? I can't find it on a map.

                   The Donbas is legally part of the Ukraine, like Crimea.
                   • Francesca …

                     16 January 2023 at 11:36 am

                     Then you have no understanding of why there is such tension between the eastern provinces (formerly Russian territory which Ukraine expanded into under Lenin in the 20's)mainly orthodox and culturally Russian , and the western parts, where you are more likely to encounter monuments to Nazi collaborators like Bandera , and more likely to belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church

                     Here is a small primer for you

                     https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-divided-over-legacy-of-nazi-fighters/
                   • tsmithfield …

                     16 January 2023 at 1:08 pm

                     and the western parts, where you are more likely to encounter monuments to Nazi collaborators like Bandera , and more likely to belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church

                     Your modus operandi is to go around and round in circles repeating the same nonsense that has already been debunked many times.

                     It has already been pointed out on numerous occasions that the far right only got around 2% of the vote in the last Ukrainian election. So, it obviously isn't much more of a problem than most countries.

                     If you are really that vexed about Nazis, then you should be really worried about Nazis in Russia. Especially as it appears Putin has been trying to manipulate them for his own ends, as the article points out.

                     From the link:

                     “What has received less coverage is the Putin regime’s own record of collaboration with far-right extremists.”
                 • tsmithfield …

                   16 January 2023 at 11:50 am

                   It is not at all clear who was attacking who in that conflict, especially considering it wasn't only rebel Ukrainians involved. But also, large numbers of Russians, including Russian special forces.

                   So, it looks more like a continuation of Russian agression following the annexation of Crimea than anything else.

                   Does the name Igor Girkin mean anything to you. Pity about that Malaysian passenger plane that was shot down. But I guess you would blame the Ukrainians for that as well.
                   • Francesca …

                     16 January 2023 at 12:45 pm

                     Yes, Igor Girkin aka Strelkov, a nationalist and a nutter, banned from eastern Ukraine by Putin,and ever since a strident critic of Putin , because he thinks Putin is a softie and appeaser of the west.

                     You're really drifting here
                   • tsmithfield …

                     16 January 2023 at 1:11 pm

                     You obviously didn't read the link very well.

                     He has only become critical of Putin over recent times. And was actually quite popular prior to the downing of the Malaysian plane which was terminal for his career.

                     From the previous link:

                     While leading a group of separatist militants into Ukraine in the 2014 Siege of Sloviansk, Girkin gained influence and attention, being appointed to the position of Minister of Defense in the Donetsk People's Republic, a puppet state of Russia.[4][5][6]

                     Girkin was dismissed from his position in August 2014, after 298 people died when Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down.
         • Jenny are we there yet 1.1.4.1.2

           16 January 2023 at 5:55 pm

           "Peace is possible .,it has to be .Vietnam has apparently forgiven the genocidal assaults of the Vietnam war,…." Francesca.

           Only when and after the US imperialists were driven out.

           Did you forget that part?
     • Sanctuary 1.1.5

       16 January 2023 at 11:09 am

       groan the Dresden and Tokyo attacks were 80 years ago now, Korea three quarters of a century ago and Rolling Thunder for all it's tonnage of bombs dropped was not an area bombing offensive. This sort of tedious whatabboutism is mired in a miserable ignorance of the last eighty years.

       The thing is, targets like Dresden and Tokyo (and Hamburg) were attacked using incendiaries for the simple reason the attackers couldn't hit the particular but they could hit the general. In other words, the Allied night bombers could find, hit and set fire to a city easily but they couldn't hit a specific target within the city at all. The US bombing of Vietnam COULD hit specific targets, which is why the Vietnamese didn't bother to claim the Americans were engaging in indiscriminate terror attacks on civilians.

       Western military thought no longer embraces area bombing because it doesn't work. It is wasteful of resources and it doesn't achieve it's supposed primary goal – the destruction of the enemies means and will to fight. A primary military consideration is are the means conmensurate with the ways and the ends? The UK devoted between 35-40% of it's total wartime output in WW2 to the construction of lavishly equipped heavy bombers, yet this force was frightfully vulnerable German nightfighters right to the end of the war and the heavy losses in bomber crews were inflicted on the best and brightest young men of the era. So, area bombing cost the UK more than it did Germany. Now that isn't to say such bombing doesn't achieve secondary objectives. The use of area bombing forces the enemy to disperse their industry, which is disruptive. It forces the diversion of resources into air defenses (in WW2 the Germans deployed thousands of large AA guns, fighters etc etc and air defense consumed almost all the output of Germany's electronics industry). Finally, the way the ends were achieved have ultimately become an issue. While area bombing has some justification, it is morally questionable, to say the least. Bombing civilians because otherwise you'd have all this expensive stuff sitting around doing not much is as bad morally and it is bad militarily.

       Ultimately, the big lesson of WW2 was what WORKED was using strategic bombing to achieve a specific strategic aim. Thus, the "transport plan", or the attacks on the German canal system, or were the Americans would send 1000 USAAF heavy bombers (escorted by 1000 Mustang and Thunderbolt fighters) to carry out precision daylight bombing of vital targets as "bait" to force the Germans to send up their fighters, were they were engaged in a huge battle of attrition that the United States was always going to win handily via the application of Lanchester's equation. That is why now the west relies on precision guided weapons. Why would you bomb an entire city with 1000 bombers when all you want to do is destroy a tank factory?

       The thread of logic that links Russia's missile attacks on the Ukraine with area bombing is the Russians are now no longer particularly interested in hitting the target they are aiming their wildly inaccurate Kh-22 and S300 missiles at. Just like destroying anything of military significance was a bonus of area bombing rather than the aim, so Russia regards actually hitting something they aim at and causing a militarily significant outcome as a bonus. The aim is an airborne expression of splenetic state terrorism at the temerity of the Ukrainians to resist and a brutal and cruel desire to inflict suffering on the Ukrainian civilian population.

       The thing is, Western powers learnt from area bombing. It didn't work, it was wasteful, it was morally wrong in retrospect. They don't do it anymore. Russia, it seems, is not interested in these insights. They've learnt nothing and forgotten nothing from the human catastrophes of the mid 20th century.

       Two wrongs don't make a right.
       • Francesca 1.1.5.1

         16 January 2023 at 11:26 am

         The Western powers learnt not to area bomb?Or do you mean aerial?

         What planet are you on ?

         Iraq, Libya,Syria, Somalia,Afghanistan,Vietnam, Laos,Cambodia,Serbia.

         And from the Progressive

         https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davies-220112/

         If you think the US has any morality whatsoever in its foreign policy …"morally wrong in retrospect"… come on , there's not really a discussion here
         • Sanctuary 1.1.5.1.1

           16 January 2023 at 11:40 am

           The Western powers learnt not to area bomb? Or do you mean aerial?

           You seem a bit lacking in some key understandings when it comes to being informed on what you are pontificating on about.

           Any degree of comprehensive general knowledge should be familiar with the term area bombing. Here is the entry in Wikipedia. Avail yourself of some new knowledge.
           • Francesca 1.1.5.1.1.1

             16 January 2023 at 12:58 pm

             Thanks, I did know, I just couldn't believe you thought the US had given up bombing residential areas , urban areas

             I repeat Mosul, Raqqa
         • Jenny are we there yet 1.1.5.1.2

           16 January 2023 at 7:51 pm

           "If you think the US has any morality whatsoever in its foreign policy …"morally wrong in retrospect"… come on , there's not really a discussion here…" Francesca

           I don't think US foreign policy has any morality whatsoever. From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli, and everything in between, the nature and the crimes of American imperialism are well documented.

           Every imperialism is racist and genocidal, it is the very nature of imperialism.

           Biden calls the Russian Federation imperialist. Putin calls the U.S imperialist. What they both have in common is that they both don't want it known that they are both imperialists.

           All imperialists are racist, how else can they claim they have the right to invade and take over and run other people's countries unless they believe those people are inferior.

           All imperialists are genocidal, how else can can an imperialist nation put down an insurgent people, who refuse to submit. As one US general once said in Vietnam 'We had to destroy the village to save it"

           Genocide is destroying the village to save it writ large

           If the Russian imperialists did take their cue from the American imperialists, the student has become the master.

           What the horrors of Syria and Chechnya can tell us about Russia’s tactics in Ukraine

           Russia is bringing the deadly tactics used in Chechnya and Syria to Ukraine’s cities.

           Joshua Keating

           Global Security Reporter

           March 30, 2022

           Abdulkafi Alhamdo remembers the day he asked his wife to take their infant daughter out of Aleppo. “I told her to take my daughter through the [humanitarian] corridor just to stay alive,” Alhamdo said. “I thought this was the last time I would see them, the last time I would kiss my daughter. I remember my daughter was holding my knees and crying. Perhaps she knew something.”…..

           …..the tactics on display in Ukraine are “a clear attempt by the Russian military to do exactly what they did in Syria, and certainly what they did in Grozny: a mass shelling campaign to instill fear, terror, destruction, chaos and to create conditions in which the civilian population flees en masse, then creating conditions in which eventually, even the largest urban territories will end up falling under their control.”………

           The Grozny model

           After 20 days of heavy artillery shelling of the city center — sometimes at a rate of 4,000 rounds an hour — the Russian military eventually took Grozny on Jan. 20, 2005.

           The heavy bombardment of Grozny “worked” in one sense. The Russians took the city. But Mogulof and other observers believe it may have made the Chechens more resolved to fight back. “It’s mechanized terrorism,” ….

           ……The air assault killed tens of thousands of civilians and left Grozny in ruins. The United Nations called it “the most destroyed city on earth.” …..

           Aleppo —“a kind of hell”

           ….In 2015, Russian forces began an intervention in Syria on Assad’s behalf, using air power to tip the balance in his favor. In Aleppo, the rebel-held territories were completely encircled in mid-2016, leaving 250,000 people under siege and subject to heavy Russian airstrikes. The Russian and Syrian militaries were both accused of war crimes, including deliberately targeting medical facilities, using indiscriminate weapons such as cluster munitions and attempting to starve the city’s population……

           https://www.grid.news/story/global/2022/03/29/terror-destruction-and-chaos-russian-tactics-in-ukraine-have-a-history/
       • Maurice 1.1.5.2

         16 January 2023 at 3:14 pm

         "The thing is, Western powers learnt from area bombing. It didn't work, it was wasteful, it was morally wrong in retrospect"

         Indeed, have three of four volumes of "The Strategic Air Offensive against Germany 1939-1945" by Sir Charles Webster and Noble Frankland published 1961 which was biffed out of Whenuapai Station Library – RNZAF Command and Staff College Library Book with CANCELLED stamped inside which examines and discusses this very subject.

         Vol I issued once in 1995 Vol II issued thrice in 1962; 1972 & 1992 No Vol III and Vol IV issued once in 1976.

         One wonders why it is not still a standard text for study!

         BTW written in pencil on flyleaf is: Total Price Set of 4 Vols 9 pounds and four shillings. Do hope they got their moneys worth out of them …..

         Would love to find Vol III and only paid $12 for the three.
     • Scud 1.1.6

       16 January 2023 at 1:02 pm

       FFS,

       You really love giving me a dose of Dysentery don't you?

       Why don't you read up on Russia's guarantees that it signed under the Lisbon Protocol & Budapest Memorandum when Ukraine gave up its Strategic Wpns at the end of the Cold War for Starters.

       Then go back to the 1917 through 1925 when the USSR signed a similar Peace Treaty in 1920 or 22 from memory where Russia kept Eastern Ukraine along the Dnipro River. Which it violated in 1925 leading to Holodomor under Stalin.

       Then read up what Stalin did to Ukraine after Russia booted the Germans out & it could've a lot more worse if Khrushchev quietly squash some of Stalin Orders.

       The Ukrainian's do not & will not trust Russia for the next 1k yrs no matter what what Peace Treaty they sign because Russia can not be Bloody Trust to keep their Bloody Word & will not Negotiate in Good Faith!

       Why do you think Finland & Sweden decided to give up their Long Standing Neutrality FFS!!!

       Because they no longer Bloody Trust Russia FFS!!!
       • Francesca 1.1.6.1

         16 January 2023 at 2:01 pm

         I think we'll let you have the last word Scud.Probably the only one amongst us who's been in the thick of it

         Respect
         • Tony Veitch 1.1.6.1.1

           16 January 2023 at 3:44 pm

           To obtain some understanding – if this is what you aim for – read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder – of what both Stalin and Hitler did to Ukraine.

           The Ukrainians, for damn good reason, will never trust the Russians!
         • weston 1.1.6.1.2

           16 January 2023 at 10:02 pm

           Respect to you too Francesca really enjoyed your comments today answering one an all with quiet aplomb inspite of the hubbub very well done and exactly the kind of diplomacy lacking in the general debate imo .

           Gotta say it reminds me of a memorable scene from ' One flew over the cuckoos nest ' though …hope you can guess which one !!

           regards
           • Francesca 1.1.6.1.2.1

             17 January 2023 at 10:15 am

             Cheers Weston !

             I appreciate it
   • adam 1.2

     16 January 2023 at 4:53 pm

     There will be no peace, the Russians think they are winning (or at the very least have to win). Well the leadership think they are.

     You get the Russian goal is on the West of Ukraine so they will keep going till they have all their strategic points occupied.

     Peace might be discussed when the Russians have lost 500,000 troops. Might, they seem hell bent on self genocide at the moment – through throwing away the last generation who could save them as a people. Those who survive this mess are going to be totally FUBAR.

     I want this war over, but the idiots are in charge so I see it lasting till the last Russian is left going "can I go home now"

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fju9o8BVJ8
2. Sanctuary 2

   16 January 2023 at 7:50 am

   Mr. Sensible kindly gives us a master class in demolishing your own argument in the first two paragraphs of a rather ill thought out opinion piece…

   "…The suggestion that the national capital should be shifted from Wellington to Hamilton, on the spurious grounds that the majority of our population lives north of Te Awamutu, is as ludicrous as it would be disastrous.

   One of Wellington’s great advantages remains its centrality – as true today as it was in 1865. Indeed, Wellington’s only real competitor in that regard is Nelson…"

   Centrality? Over three-quarters of New Zealand's population live in the North Island, with half living north of Lake Rotorua, and one-third of the total population living in the Auckland Region. On the basis of "centrality" surely the Tron is a fantastic idea? I guess he means GEOGRAPHIC centrality – in which case the US should move it's capital to Belle Fourche, South Dakota or the UK should move it's capital to Lancashire – or how about moving the Australian capital to somewhere in the middle of the Simpson desert?

   Peter Dunne is a pompous old fool who spouts nonsense.
   • Johnr 2.1

     16 January 2023 at 8:01 am

     Irrespective of the pompous prats argument. I hope it carries some sway.

     The last thing we need north of Rotorua is that lot. We've got enough idiots of our own up here. It's becoming increasingly harder to fly under the radar these days.
   • bwaghorn 2.2

     16 January 2023 at 2:15 pm

     I've always thought that Wellington was a ridiculous place for parliament, it's when not if that place gets leveled by a whopper earthquke(very scientific terminology)

     Christchurch would be my pick , Auckland throws its weight around enough with out letting the seat of power any near them
     • Maurice 2.2.1

       16 January 2023 at 3:20 pm

       Would hazzard a guess that Christchurch – nay the entire South Island – would not want them and make that quite plain
3. RosieLee 3

   16 January 2023 at 3:02 pm

   No. Too conservative and lacking real diversity.
4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4

   16 January 2023 at 4:15 pm

   “The busy summer holiday period has highlighted just what an appalling state much of our roading network is in,” Transporting New Zealand chief executive Nick Leggett said.

   “It’s not just about road maintenance. We also need the Government to recommit to new roading capacity to ease the strain on our existing network.”

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/pothole-damage-complaints-record-level

   Hmmm. Nick …Leggett. Who he?

   Aha….

   In October 2018 Leggett was appointed the CEO of the Road Transport Forum,[24] a lobby group which promotes and the interests of the trucking road freight industry.[25]

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Leggett

   So…apart from being a Nat…he also represents a major cause of the road damage problem. Egg.
   • Johnr 4.1

     16 January 2023 at 4:43 pm

     Yep. Follow the dollars pretty much always demonstrates the validity of these guys statements.

     It always amazes me how many "ceo's" of this or that lobby group there are in every sphere of our society.

     Once again, follow the dollars. Cynicism is my new mantra.
   • Bearded Git 4.2

     17 January 2023 at 12:19 am

     Agreed Psyc.

     I have posted a couple of times before on TS how trucks cause almost 1000 (one thousand) times the damage to roads compared with a family saloon.

     Invest in rail is the obvious way out
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.2.1

       17 January 2023 at 7:46 am

       Invest in rail

       Hi BG. Its an absolute no-brainer. Sadly the NO brainers : think Nat Simeon Brown etc… are getting the media attention. And of course the totally vested interest lobbyists as in Nick Leggett in my link.

       IMO KiwiRail…are not really NZ Rail proponents..or even Rail friendly. I really feel Labour should get with re nationalising NZ Rail .And maybe some changes within at the same time (to get a real focus on Rail)

       Youve probably seen these, but..

       https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads

       https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2017/11/28/value-rail-new-zealand/

       https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/06/road-to-rail-can-nz-get-back-on-track-with-rail/

       Also I have always kept this ..Rail…but also Coastal Shipping ! (FYI its a PDF..but very useful : )

       https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/research/reports/497/docs/497.pdf
5. Stephen D 5

   16 January 2023 at 4:57 pm

   He used to be the Labour mayor of Porirua. “Insert imprecation here.”
6. joe90 6

   16 January 2023 at 5:50 pm

   It's never been about protecting Russian speaking people, NATO, or about "'nazis".

   It's always been about the eradication of the Ukrainian presence and identity to facilitate a genocidal land grab.

   .

   Over the next four days, the Kherson Regional Art Museum was cleaned out, witnesses said, with Russian forces “bustling about like insects,” porters wheeling out thousands of paintings, soldiers hastily wrapping them in sheets, art experts barking out orders and packing material flying everywhere.

   “They were loading such masterpieces, which there are no more in the world, as if they were garbage,” said the museum’s longtime director, Alina Dotsenko, who recently returned from exile, recounting what employees and witnesses had told her.

   When she came back to the museum in early November and grasped how much had been stolen, she said, “I almost lost my mind.”

   Kherson. Mariupol. Melitopol. Kakhovsky. Museums of art, history and antiquities.

   As Russia has ravaged Ukraine with deadly missile strikes and brutal atrocities on civilians, it has also looted the nation’s cultural institutions of some of the most important and intensely protected contributions of Ukraine and its forebears going back thousands of years.

   International art experts say the plundering may be the single biggest collective art heist since the Nazis pillaged Europe in World War II.

   https://archive.li/kriwg (nyt)
   • adam 6.1

     16 January 2023 at 6:31 pm

     Looting is as old as war. So the pearl clutching is a bit rich for someone who supports the war.

     The reality is war produces animals out of all who fight them.

     But as your a huge supporter of keeping this war going joe90, you have to face up to the reality of the ugly as well: Rape, Looting, Killing of prisoners, and Mass murder of civilians is going to keep happening as long as this war keeps going. Both sides are going to do it.

     No one has a monopoly on doing evil shit in war.

     We just have to wait until at least 1/2 a million Russian soldiers are dead, before we can get around to peace talks.

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