Open Mike 16/07/2018

102 comments on “Open Mike 16/07/2018 ”

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1. marty mars 1

   16 July 2018 at 7:56 am

   t.rump

   “US President Donald Trump’s press conference with Theresa May was another demonstration of his White Queen tendencies. He has no time for facts. They sometimes get in the way of stories about how great he is, which is the kind of story he loves to hear, and to tell.”
   …
   “Trump repaid his hosts by belittling May’s negotiating skills, praising her political nemesis Boris Johnson as great prime ministerial material, and grievously wounding her efforts to build consensus on a plan for Brexit by declaring he probably wouldn’t or couldn’t do a trade deal.

   On Friday even Trump clearly knew he’d gone too far. He claimed he’d apologised to May about the interview, he flattered her endlessly, he even grudgingly admitted that a trade deal could be possible after all.

   Trouble was, who to believe? Yesterday’s Trump? Today’s Trump? Tomorrow’s?

   “I didn’t criticise the PM,” he said. “Fake news.” This was his description of the on-the-record interview he’d given to The Sun, which was on tape, and faithfully transcribed his criticism of her.

   The past isn’t just a different country to Trump, it’s another universe.”

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/105494408/donald-trumps-europe-tour-a-theatre-of-the-grotesque

   and somehow we are supposed to save the world with the tango Mussolini doing his thing? No wonder many people are giving up…
   • Andre 1.1

     16 July 2018 at 8:30 am

     It’s the one minor relief when considering the rufous fucknuckle; what comes out of his mouth has no greater meaning than it felt good to him to say it at that moment.

     So while there’s a lot of concern, panic even, about his one-on-one with Pootee, his words are effectively meaningless. The only real damage he could is blab secrets.
   • DH 1.2

     16 July 2018 at 8:42 am

     You might want to try listening to the transcript with an open mind marty. I did and wondered what the journalist was on about. I guess you could find criticism there if that was what you wanted to hear but it was far from obvious.

     This Trump business is getting tiresome. Everyone invested in it needs to step back, take a deep breath, and calm down.
     • marty mars 1.2.1

       16 July 2018 at 10:02 am

       My mind is open and the orange plasticdag is a liar and thick and… I’m sure you’ve heard it all before so I won’t bore you. Does sound like you need a cuppa though – enjoy.
       • DH 1.2.1.1

         16 July 2018 at 11:08 am

         Maybe I did marty, I was halfway through the morning cuppa when I read your reply….

         I was interested enough to listen to the Sun interview and saw little in it to support the journalists view. That’s all there is to it really, I try to be fair minded even towards those I dislike and in all fairness the stuff article was low-grade clickbait.
         • marty mars 1.2.1.1.1

           16 July 2018 at 11:51 am

           Try to be more circumspect next time and you won’t get sucked in.
           • DH 1.2.1.1.1.1

             16 July 2018 at 12:25 pm

             Is everything ok with your world marty? You’ve been angry a lot lately, not like you.
             • cleangreen …

               16 July 2018 at 12:36 pm

               Yeah DH Marty is paranoid actually now isn’t she/he????

               I feel real anger inn there, and I truly worry it wil affect Marty’s health and wellbeing too.
               • marty mars …

                 16 July 2018 at 12:46 pm

                 Lol – thanks – I feels ya and I am surrounded and wonderfully enveloped by your exuded and retreated sincerity – shade shall no longer fall on you from this day forth, on this i swear!!!. Now that you have both bent the knee peace shall reign on the land. Rejoice!!!
                 • DH …

                   16 July 2018 at 1:22 pm

                   I won’t press it marty, I asked out of concern and nothing more. You’ve changed, I don’t recognise the marty who used to post here. Take that how you will.
                   • marty mars …

                     16 July 2018 at 1:43 pm

                     SNAP – yeah you’ve changed too – you used to be nice and kind and caring – wtf happened to you? Where did you go SO SO wrong? I hope things get better for you soon. I’m not worried about you cos I know you’ve changed and sorted stuff out in the past and that was hard for you. You CAN do it again.
2. corodale 2

   16 July 2018 at 8:27 am

   Guess doing an interview for The Sun is a bit like doing and interview for Radio Hauraki, banter and humour right?
3. corodale 3

   16 July 2018 at 8:34 am

   The new Green Investment Bank is getting 100million in capital. Does that mean they can lend a whole billion, using the standard 1:10 leverage? Or does that mean they can’t lend anything cause they will spend the whole 100million buying themselves a building for commercial office space?

   If it’s a billion, then they should start up an electric car factory.
   • Puckish Rogue 3.1

     16 July 2018 at 8:47 am

     If the bank has that sort of money instead of building the factory they should invest in the batteries the car uses, specifically in making the batteries smaller, lighter, cheaper and, more importantly more efficient in how much energy the batteries can store (and recharge)

     This would be a lot cheaper than building a factory and would be more useful as it would also lead into helping solar panels for house be more attractive
     • corodale 3.1.1

       16 July 2018 at 7:23 pm

       It would just be an assembly plant, the battery tech is there, but the auto industry isn’t putting it together.
   • Ad 3.2

     16 July 2018 at 8:52 am

     Last time I saw him speak Shaw said that the $100m was very much seed money designed to attract multiples more into green energy investments, whatever they are.

     The signal from the group of very large New Zealand businesses was important:

     http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1807/S00322/new-business-leaders-climate-group-to-tackle-emissions.htm

     And the intent of group of 60 of our biggest businesses are considered here at The Spinoff:

     https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/12-07-2018/climate-leader-coalition/

     Youc an also see such types clustered in the PureAdvantage think tank as well:

     http://pureadvantage.org/contributors/

     So long as Shaw gets the support of senior Cabinet colleagues, there’s a good chance that EQC Fund, ACC, and NZSuperFund could all find common investment cause with him. It won’t be easy, but he’s already turned National in favour of the Commission as well as much of the larger business community.

     It’s a fine start.
   • cleangreen 3.3

     16 July 2018 at 12:43 pm

     corodale;

     They need to work on putting a solar powered rail network into our transport system now.

     As it is the most enironmentally sustaonable system we could have here apparently.according to this;

     Here’s a futuristic idea, involving solar-powered trains.

     https://understandsolar.com/solar-powered-trains-future-of-public-transportation/

     California renewable energy policy expert Tam Hunt has founded a new start-up to solar power trains.
     Solar Trains proposes constructing a solar canopy over miles of train track, enough to solar-power the nation’s electric train systems.
     About ten cities in the US have electric train systems. These include BART in California, and the NY Subway system (most of the NYC Subway is actually above ground once it leaves Manhattan).
     Electric rail is super sustainable already, but hardly a fast-evolving technology. Beginning as a visionary concept based on Jules Verne’s science fiction idea of a future in 1911, BART ultimately only began to be developed in 1946.

     Worth consideration for the future transport needs to plan now for?

     Best we keep all our rail system in place and use it all then.
     • lprent 3.3.1

       16 July 2018 at 3:22 pm

       Personally I’d prefer our planners start to plan on it after they can see an actual working and workable example.

       Even a cursory back of the envelope calculation world indicates that the energy required to shift the hundreds of tonnes of freight that we have on the majority of our train travel for hundreds of kilometres simply won’t work with anything like current solar densities.

       Bearing in mind that most freight trains and even most of the passenger train trips (by kilometres) tend to run at night as well, I’d say that you’re kind of into wishful tripping.
       • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1

         16 July 2018 at 3:49 pm

         It’s a silly idea to build ‘solar powered trains’. Much better to determine how much power is needed by the nation across all uses and then build enough capacity to produce it using multiple renewable generation technologies.
     • Draco T Bastard 3.3.2

       16 July 2018 at 3:46 pm

       Electric rail is super sustainable already, but hardly a fast-evolving technology. Beginning as a visionary concept based on Jules Verne’s science fiction idea of a future in 1911, BART ultimately only began to be developed in 1946.

       ???

       Electric trains:

       The first known electric locomotive was built in 1837 by chemist Robert Davidson of Aberdeen, and it was powered by galvanic cells (batteries).

       The first electric passenger train was presented by Werner von Siemens at Berlin in 1879.

       The first practical AC electric locomotive was designed by Charles Brown, then working for Oerlikon, Zürich. In 1891, Brown had demonstrated long-distance power transmission, using three-phase AC, between a hydro-electric plant at Lauffen am Neckar and Frankfurt am Main West, a distance of 280 km. Using experience he had gained while working for Jean Heilmann on steam-electric locomotive designs, Brown observed that three-phase motors had a higher power-to-weight ratio than DC motors and, because of the absence of a commutator, were simpler to manufacture and maintain.[i] However, they were much larger than the DC motors of the time and could not be mounted in underfloor bogies: they could only be carried within locomotive bodies.[11]

       In 1894, Hungarian engineer Kálmán Kandó developed a new type 3-phase asynchronous electric drive motors and generators for electric locomotives. Kandó’s early 1894 designs were first applied in a short three-phase AC tramway in Evian-les-Bains (France), which was constructed between 1896 and 1898.

       Their timing seems to be out as well as proper attributions.

       And, really, learn to format properly. I actually thought you had said that as I didn’t realise that you were quoting.
4. Puckish Rogue 4

   16 July 2018 at 8:36 am

   I’ve always been interested in how the media shapes perceptions as opposed to actual policies (yeah yeah so sue me)

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/105493358/twitter-counts-ways-us-president-donald-trump-insulted-the-queen

   I mean lets be be here honest here, she came of age during a world war that had actual, real nazis, shes married to Prince Philip and most of her family have had messy (and/or interesting) divorces, I highly doubt shes that offended by a boorish american

   https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/prince-philip-best-gaffes-quotes-133848
5. bwaghorn 5

   16 July 2018 at 8:46 am

   Replies are back and name and email is in place . Well done that man
   • Puckish Rogue 5.1

     16 July 2018 at 8:50 am

     Yes its a small thing but a big annoyance, good job.
   • Ed 5.2

     16 July 2018 at 12:36 pm

     +1
   • veutoviper 5.3

     16 July 2018 at 1:29 pm

     Unfortunately not for me. Have emailed lprent – but not complaining just trying to find a way to fix mine. Lprent does a wonderful job.

     WOW – now working. Name etc saved and Replies back.
     • lprent 5.3.1

       16 July 2018 at 3:22 pm

       That is just caching..
6. SaveNZ 6

   16 July 2018 at 9:03 am

   Is the government doing any initiatives around obesity? One of NZ biggest health problems on the rise. Nothing from the last decade under National, (article from 2014) but is there going to be progress on this, under a Labour/Green/NZ First government or is the current ‘market driven’ approach and lack of regulation on harmful food and the apparent drivers against exercise going to continue?

   “Health experts say a lack of government vision and investment means the obesity epidemic is continuing to balloon out of control with no end in sight.

   Middlemore Hospital intensive care specialist David Galler said much of his time was now spent dealing with preventable issues which stemmed from obesity. His job did not start out this way.”

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/10081306/Health-system-crushed-by-overweight
   • Puckish Rogue 6.1

     16 July 2018 at 9:08 am

     Two things would help immensely, a re-legalisation of the ECA stack (highly unlikely) and subsidised (or free) gastric surgery (more doable)

     Would be a cost to start but offer a lot of savings down the line
     • SaveNZ 6.1.1

       16 July 2018 at 9:24 am

       @ PR Or could be as simple as making food healthy again and less processed…

       Like the plethora of liquor stores on every corner around NZ, maybe NZ moves away from a bad quality fast food nation taking over the high streets, to food that is legislated to be nutritious being available instead…

       Do we want the US system of health care and food regulation – because NZ can’t afford such a bad and expensive system like the US health system for a start.

       Personally in favour of a starting point of definition of food, that is based on nutrition and anything else being called non food… and not allowed to be marketed as a food item or outlet.

       I think the gastric surgery for 30+ % of the population might be a step too far… when less intrusive options should be put in place which actually helps their overall health and wellbeing and gastric surgery is the last resort.
       • SaveNZ 6.1.1.1

         16 July 2018 at 9:27 am

         ++ also bear in mind NZ as a country is set up to produce healthy food, so it’s to our advantage as a nation ++ as well as better for people’s health+++
       • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.2

         16 July 2018 at 9:28 am

         “Personally in favour of a starting point of definition of food, that is based on nutrition and anything else being called non food… and not allowed to be marketed as a food item or outlet.”

         I see that as a long term solution (if in fact its even possible) and a hell of a potential mine field whereas my ideas are short term and theres plenty of evidence to show they work (however unpalatable they may be)

         But each to their own
         • SaveNZ 6.1.1.2.1

           16 July 2018 at 9:36 am

           Of course defining food is possible and can be done straight away. The EU have definitions of everything aka what is legally allowed to be described as a product aka “chocolate” because there is a rise of fake food and counterfeit food and this is also related to VAT (service vs non service),

           Around 10% of US food is actually fake (don’t have link but was on TS a while ago) and as profit and fake marketing is harming people but apart from the Pharma industry vs Natural medicine industry nothing is being done about this in spite of it being a massive health and productivity cost to the nation and the people who suffer from it.
           • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.2.1.1

             16 July 2018 at 9:41 am

             The problem is that even if you do manage make whatever labelling you like the people you want it to work on will still seek out that kind of food because they like eating that food because, to them, it tastes good

             Make all the labelling you like, take the gst of certain foods if you like but a piece of kfc or a big mac or whatever is still going to taste good whether you label it non-food or not and people will still look for it

             Also why have one thing or the other, why not both?
   • Draco T Bastard 6.2

     16 July 2018 at 11:32 am

     Is the government doing any initiatives around obesity?

     What do you think that the government should do?
7. SaveNZ 7

   16 July 2018 at 9:08 am

   Rise in obesity in New Zealand inevitable, reveals world-first study

   “The University of Auckland study shows the majority of food labelling, marketing and pricing sends an unhealthy message, and low-income neighbourhoods are most at risk.

   The new three-year study explored how the availability and affordability of food affects our choices and how advertising influences us.”

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/07/rise-in-obesity-in-new-zealand-inevitable-reveals-world-first-study.html
8. SaveNZ 8

   16 July 2018 at 9:15 am

   The New Zealand Health Survey 2016/17 found that:

   around 1 in 3 adults (aged 15 years and over) were obese (32%)
   a further 34% of adults were overweight but not obese

   The New Zealand Health Survey 2016/17 found that:

   around 1 in 8 children (aged 2–14 years) were obese (12%)
   a further 21% were children were overweight but not obese

   https://www.health.govt.nz/nz-health-statistics/health-statistics-and-data-sets/obesity-statistics
9. marty mars 9

   16 July 2018 at 9:42 am

   Sounds interesting for this wed in Auckland.

   https://www.eventfinda.co.nz/2018/new-zealanders-in-the-spanish-civil-war/auckland/ponsonby
   • veutoviper 9.1

     16 July 2018 at 2:34 pm

     Ohhh, i would so like to go to that but stuck in Wellington with no money.

     Hows the health now, marty? Its great to see you back here.
     • marty mars 9.1.1

       16 July 2018 at 2:43 pm

       I’m great – playing squash, digging for gold, lifting up my kids and working hard. Moved from the tiny house to normal house, really loving life at the moment.

       How about you? Hope you have some great things in your life.
10. ianmac 10

    16 July 2018 at 9:47 am

    If the Opposition is tasked with holding the Government to account, surely Guyon is tasked with holding the Opposition (Bridges) to account. Instead poor old Guyon works hard to help Bridges articulate his opposition.
    eg Morning Report this morning.
    • Gabby 10.1

      16 July 2018 at 12:12 pm

      Slick Britches’ word of the week is tealeaves apparently.
      • ianmac 10.1.1

        16 July 2018 at 1:55 pm

        Not that Slick actually. He has his talking points but not able to substantiate them without waffling emptily.
11. SaveNZ 11

    16 July 2018 at 9:47 am

    Could be a good opportunity for NZ to spend some money on research and development in this area as well staunch and strategic public policy and protect the consumer from the lowest common denominator. (Because the stats all show bad food prey on the poorer and less educated folks most so this is not a ‘natural’ problem it’s targeted to prey on the weak).

    Is NZ ever going to get away from commodities to higher value exports and products or are we doomed by poor government vision, to lag behind every single opportunity to become a high wage nation by pandering to dinosaur business calling the shots… already missed the solar panel trend by 30 years… now thinking of putting a fund together for clean energy decades behind everyone else..

    From OECD

    “More than one in two adults and nearly one in six children are overweight or obese in OECD countries.
    Adult obesity rates are highest in the United States, Mexico, New Zealand and Hungary, while they are lowest in Japan and Korea.
    Obesity rates are projected to increase further by 2030, and Korea and Switzerland are the countries where obesity rates are projected to increase at a faster pace.”

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
12. Puckish Rogue 12

    16 July 2018 at 10:20 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/105406329/police-mental-health-plan-victim-of-funding-cuts-under-new-government

    ‘An $8 million co-response service would see a mental health worker attend all crisis calls along with police and ambulance staff. Officials believed it could slash the number of mentally ill people being locked up in police cells by as much as 75 per cent.’

    ‘The pilot was one of 17 initiatives in a $100 million mental health package announced by the National government last year.

    It was to be trialled in Auckland, Christchurch, Palmerston North and Horowhenua over three years. ‘

    Huh
    • bwaghorn 12.1

      16 July 2018 at 12:04 pm

      Struggling to work out why myself . Hoping they have something lined up to replace it
      • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1

        16 July 2018 at 12:13 pm

        You’d think so, its not a lot of money (in the grand scheme of things) but then so was this

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105264519/govt-cancels-65m-funding-for-cochlear-implants?rm=m
        • Rosemary McDonald 12.1.1.1

          16 July 2018 at 2:39 pm

          I am surprised anyone is surprised at either of these. I too had tentative high expectations of this new Government. True colours shown when the going gets tough.

          I’m sure the resident Standard flag wavers for Labour can explain???

          SSDD.
    • Gabby 12.2

      16 July 2018 at 12:15 pm

      They might have figured out there was a massive response time penalty puckers.
13. Kevin 13

    16 July 2018 at 11:19 am

    Two opposing views on WFF.

    Bryce Edwards:
    https://pro.newsroom.co.nz/articles/3560-5-edwards-working-for-families-is-corporate-welfare

    Susan St John:
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/15/154309/working-for-families-perversely-misunderstood
    • The Chairman 13.1

      16 July 2018 at 3:18 pm

      Seems to me Susan St John thinks it is the responsibility of the state to cover the cost of raising children. Not their parents, thus ultimately their employers.

      Moreover, she seems to have overlooked this (from Bryce Edwards below) when asking do employers really set wages with WFF in mind?

      “The line from many employers has been that they would prefer to see WFF increases than increases in the minimum wage. Their public reasoning is that workers with families will lose some benefits if their wages increase. What they don’t mention is that increases to the minimum wage transfers income support costs from taxpayers to employers, while WFF increases do the reverse. Quite simply, most employers have become enthusiastic about WFF, and any increases to it are actually quite welcomed.”
      • McFlock 13.1.1

        16 July 2018 at 5:00 pm

        Seems to me Susan St John thinks it is the responsibility of the state to cover the cost of raising children. Not their parents, thus ultimately their employers.

        It’s everyone’s responsibility to ensure that children are raised without economically-imposed hardship.

        The state, parents, and employers (via a living wage).
        • The Chairman 13.1.1.1

          16 July 2018 at 6:19 pm

          “It’s everyone’s responsibility to ensure that children are raised without economically-imposed hardship.”

          Indeed.

          And currently, the Government’s burden is being extended to help cover the shortfall created by low incomes. Lightening the private sector’s role.
          • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1

            16 July 2018 at 7:15 pm

            So?
            If the state is assisting parents to perform their responsibilities, why should anyone rely on the kindness of capitalists?

            Because your initial comment on Susan St John seemed to indicate that the state doesn’t have a role in ensuring children are raised in health and dignity.
            • The Chairman 13.1.1.1.1.1

              16 July 2018 at 8:18 pm

              I believe the state has a role, but so to do parents, thus employers.

              Having the state cover employers role is akin to socialising costs while privatising gains. Eroding our tax dollars and the ability to spend the money elsewhere – i.e. health, housing , etc…

              Further compounded by foreign owned businesses sending their taxpayer assisted profit offshore. Robbing our economy of the economic stimulus that would have been created if higher wages (opposed to WFF that could be spent elsewhere within our economy) was paid.
              • McFlock …

                16 July 2018 at 8:31 pm

                Are employers only responsible for the welfare of the children of their employees, or the welfare of all children?
                • The Chairman …

                  16 July 2018 at 8:53 pm

                  Employers have a moral responsibility to pay a decent wage. So the parents, their employees, can do their part.

                  Employers also pay tax, thus also contribute somewhat (to the Governments efforts) in that way.
                  • McFlock …

                    16 July 2018 at 11:40 pm

                    Well if they’re responsible for all children rather just those of their employees, WFF could be expanded to all families and as long as the employers pay tax they’re fulfilling their obligations.

                    Because helping children is a different issue to the living wage. Because a living wage is about employees, regardless of whether they have kids.
    • SaveNZ 13.2

      16 July 2018 at 4:40 pm

      Great links, and agree with Edwards that WFF is corporate welfare. I’d like to see the employers be forced to pay real wages to staff in NZ. We seem to be going down a slippery slope with employment from the 1980’s, now trickle down is so broken that approx 50% of the family workforce (based on Edwards sums) either paying a paltry $9 approx a week on the living wage in tax (bear in mind this is the threshold people are being pushed into this country to create our low wage economy and this is considered a ‘winning’ wage to aspire to) and even more scary those on minimum wages need $5,067 from the taxpayers to work 60 hours a week between two people.

      So how are we going to be able to keep our world class health and education and our superannuation system going with those sorts of inputs from half the workforce being tax negative while also probably (looking at other health scenarios like obesity rising) many other health problems that will effect ability to earn a living and families living a healthy happy life.

      NZ should be a land of plenty, with so many advantages that this country enjoys, it is sad that the vision seems to be broken with policy that seems to encourage the rise of people working like slaves and being unable to earn a living without taxpayers chipping in, just so that some business (often overseas based) can profit further.

      Think how much better that taxpayer money could have been used by government, rather than propping up fast food outlets, supermarkets and liquor stores, could have been invested into having a free education, better health care, state housing and actually creating high paid jobs and innovation while supporting those who are unable to work to be able to have stress free and acceptable life.
14. Pat 14

    16 July 2018 at 11:20 am

    A link discovered in a comment at that hotbed of the Alt-Right, Bowalley Road.

    “And if, dear reader, your response to the above is to accuse me of being a fascist—the standard response of the Ctrl-Left these days to even the mildest disagreement—let me ask you this. We both know what the word “fascist” means, and it doesn’t mean individual liberty, representative democracy, and a lack of enthusiasm for invading other countries. That being the case, do you really think that flinging an obviously false accusation at me is going to encourage me to vote for the candidates you support in the next election? And if you don’t care about winning votes for the candidates you support in the next election, then just what exactly do you care about?”

    https://www.ecosophia.net/the-alt-right-the-ctrl-left-and-the-esc-center/

    A worthwhile 10 minutes to spend reading the logic of the Arch Druid….and a few more reflecting.
    • Robert Guyton 14.1

      16 July 2018 at 12:25 pm

      John Michael Greer’s esc-centre description is a really good one.
    • Draco T Bastard 14.2

      16 July 2018 at 12:37 pm

      The Ctrl-Left doesn’t share that commitment. At the heart of the Ctrl-Left is the insistence that everybody ought to be forced to do what’s right—and “right,” of course, means what the Ctrl-Left says it does.

      He seems to be arguing here that people be allowed to do what’s wrong and that there isn’t a ‘right’ anyway. This is moral relativism again and it simply doesn’t work.

      We live in a world in which it’s possible, and in fact quite common, for good people to wrestle with complicated moral issues and come to diametrically opposed conclusions.

      This can only happen if they’re not using actual logic and facts.

      So, equally, was the decision in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, which prohibited government from forcing people to participate in celebrating such marriages if that goes against their conscience.

      The baker wasn’t celebrating the marriage – they were baking a cake.

      Equality of Opportunity. The word equality can mean two things—equality of opportunity or equality of outcome—and you can have one or the other but you can’t have both.

      Of course you can have both.

      Equality of opportunity means that every person has the same chance in life as every other, irrespective of gender, ethnicity, social class, and so on.

      Which we can’t have in a capitalist society. The children of capitalists have far greater opportunity which is built into the system. If we want equality of opportunity then we need to get rid of capitalism.

      To have equality of opportunity requires that everyone have equal access to the nations resources which capitalism denies.

      Equality of outcome means that every subgroup of society gets assigned an equal share in life, irrespective of talent or effort.

      This assumes that some people have more talent than others which is incorrect. Peoples talents differ because people are different from each other but they all have talent. If people all worked equally as hard utilising their talents then they should all have the same income.

      Of course, capitalists don’t work and don’t produce any wealth and yet have far more income than others. That’s got nothing to do with talent either – just a system designed to steal from the majority and give to the rich.
      • Pat 14.2.1

        16 July 2018 at 1:09 pm

        “He seems to be arguing here that people be allowed to do what’s wrong and that there isn’t a ‘right’ anyway. This is moral relativism again and it simply doesn’t work.”

        Think youre a little smarter than that…he is simply stately that a small portion of society have no right to impose their moral code on all of society.

        “This can only happen if they’re not using actual logic and facts.”

        As I recall he made no judgement on how the decisions were arrived at, merely their virtue.

        “The baker wasn’t celebrating the marriage – they were baking a cake.”

        Life would be simple if compartmentalised….its not.

        “Of course you can have both.’

        Perhaps I need to revise my first assessment?…maybe in Utopia, but in the real world you can.t…one prevents the other, unless we are all identical in every way which we know we are not, not even identical twins.

        Finally, I dont think Mr Greer needs an education on the effects of capitalism on societies
        • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.1

          16 July 2018 at 1:44 pm

          he is simply stately that a small portion of society have no right to impose their moral code on all of society.

          True but a country does need a moral code else it collapses. This is what laws are for – determining that moral code.

          As I recall he made no judgement on how the decisions were arrived at, merely their virtue.

          That’s just it. Having two diametrically opposed conclusions indicates that at least one of them is wrong. In fact, both could be if neither used logic to come to the conclusion.

          Life would be simple if compartmentalised….its not.

          As he says in his diatribe what people do has nothing to do with anyone else unless it affects those other people. Two people getting married doesn’t affect the person baking the cake and thus the person baking the cake has no reason to refuse. The refusal seriously affects the people getting married in a fairly negative way.

          but in the real world you can.t…one prevents the other, unless we are all identical in every way which we know we are not, not even identical twins.

          That’s not the real world but the delusional capitalist one. It’s not about people being identical but recognising that their different talents have the same value and thus if those talents are used to the same degree then the people should get the same reward.
          • Pat 14.2.1.1.1

            16 July 2018 at 2:00 pm

            “True but a country does need a moral code else it collapses. This is what laws are for – determining that moral code.:

            Indeed it does….thats why we elect representatives to form laws….how many votes do you think a Fascist party would get in NZ today?

            “That’s just it. Having two diametrically opposed conclusions indicates that at least one of them is wrong. In fact, both could be if neither used logic to come to the conclusion”

            And thats fine…its how democracy works, the alternative is to have your laws made for you by an elite…religion anyone?

            “That’s not the real world but the delusional capitalist one. It’s not about people being identical but recognising that their different talents have the same value and thus if those talents are used to the same degree then the people should get the same reward.”

            ‘…thus if those talents are used to the same degree…’ and theres the kicker, they are not and you cannot legislate that they are….peoples motivations are different, as are their measures of success and their life goals…and that is as it should be…it is human to rail against such conformity.
            • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.1.1.1

              16 July 2018 at 3:32 pm

              And thats fine…its how democracy works, the alternative is to have your laws made for you by an elite…religion anyone?

              We have our laws made by an elite.

              and theres the kicker, they are not and you cannot legislate that they are…

              But we can legislate that if they do the same effort they get paid the same for that effort. Obviously if one does more then they will get more while one who does less gets less.

              And, of course, we need to eliminate unearned income.
              • Pat …

                16 July 2018 at 3:55 pm

                Yes , largely our laws are made by and FOR the elite, and why is that?….because we abandoned responsibility for the economy to ‘the market’ and allowed that abandonment to continue through a lack of engagement or alternative. consequently we now have politicians who are uncertain (if they care at all) what the electorate finds acceptable and so they fear any move that moves too far from the status quo.

                if we want bold politicians they need electoral support…and if we want power in Parliament that support needs to be broad….and that’s bloody difficult when 21% dont engage.
                • Draco T Bastard …

                  16 July 2018 at 10:40 pm

                  because we abandoned responsibility for the economy to ‘the market’ and allowed that abandonment to continue through a lack of engagement or alternative.

                  We didn’t do that – the politicians did and they did so against our wishes but as a wish fulfilment of the rich.

                  if we want bold politicians they need electoral support…and if we want power in Parliament that support needs to be broad….and that’s bloody difficult when 21% dont engage.

                  Perhaps that latter would happen if the politicians started listening to us rather than the corporate lobbyists.
                  • Pat …

                    16 July 2018 at 11:04 pm

                    1984 was 34 years ago…if you think that isnt long enough to develop an alternative you never will….every non vote in that time has been a de facto vote for the status quo….the politicians will only listen to the corporate lobbyists as long as we let them…..and we are letting them.

                    The tools are there but too many have forgotten how to use them, if they ever knew at all.
          • Pat 14.2.1.1.2

            16 July 2018 at 2:36 pm

            None of this is in conflict with your take on capitalism….the system is indeed broken and we have virtually surrendered democracy to the elites by default but throwing away another foundation stone of that democracy is not the way to regain control
    • Sanctuary 14.3

      16 July 2018 at 12:40 pm

      That is a very weak piece based on some frankly incredible assumptions:

      “…We have a system to allow citizens to seek redress of grievances. It’s called politics, and it’s open to anyone who wants to get involved in it. ..”

      Get involved, yes. Get anything done that doesn’t involve selling out to a kleptocratic class of billionaires? No.

      His comments on civil society are frankly completely out of touch. The atomised society of the dog eat dog, low wage, gig economy has shattered American communites and shared civic society for everyone outside his closeted, middle class, white, 1970s American world.

      “…An End to Empire. The United States has no business being the world’s policeman, much less the world’s jailer. ..”

      This comment is a joke. I realise that many (most?) Americans have the happy delusion that they are just doing us all a favour by being the global policeman and jailer but the reality is the vast network of US military bases are the physical manifestation of raw power that keeps the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency and ensures half the world’s resources are cheaply consumed by just 350,000,000 Americans. If the US was to withdraw it’s enormous military power on the basis it is pure altruism, the countries standard of living would tank.

      “…A Politics of Realism. The world will never be without suffering and injustice…”

      From the point onwards quoted above he just sounds like that smug asshole of a talkback caller who can’t understand why you can’t buy a house.

      The whole piece reads like John Michael Greer has become just another completely out of touch boomer who hasn’t kept up to date with current events.
      • Robert Guyton 14.3.1

        16 July 2018 at 12:59 pm

        How about this guy then 🙂 (coming back to these comments soon…)
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1SEv_i4LUE
        • Sanctuary 14.3.1.1

          16 July 2018 at 2:12 pm

          Reich and Lakoff are both much better thinkers than John Michael Greer, and are both much better known than Greer for that reason.

          Greer is basically a right wing populist with deep dislike of the “liberal intelligensia”. Hence, it follows he is deeply complacent about the dysfunction, corruption and usurpation of the machinery of government by a GOP that has transformed itself into an insurgency.

          It is also pretty obvious that he hasn’t got a clue what “the left” actually is, something that he shares with a lot of Americans who simply see words like socialism, the left etc as pejoratives. Americans prefer to use “Progressives” for the reasons outlined by Lakoff above – the Democrats don’t really have a thought through socialist ideology, relying instead on seizing on “progressive” ideas. However, conflating the left with the that particularly American brand of highly litigious morality and hyper-individualised identity politics of the “progressive” coastal elites just shows how little he actually understands traditions of leftist thought and action.
15. Robert Guyton 15

    16 July 2018 at 12:09 pm

    And what of Popper’s paradox?

    “The Paradox of Tolerance (Popper)

    “Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.”
    • Puckish Rogue 15.1

      16 July 2018 at 12:11 pm

      Oh yeah I can get down with that:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xYtEZAaQKo
    • Pat 15.2

      16 July 2018 at 12:13 pm

      “…. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. “
      • Robert Guyton 15.2.1

        16 July 2018 at 12:23 pm

        Agreed, Pat, but as we read on…
        • Pat 15.2.1.1

          16 July 2018 at 12:37 pm

          As we read on we learn (according to Popper) that should intolerant philosophy cease to act within the bounds of society and begin to act with violence we must be prepared to meet fire with fire….but if we do so before then (for that presupposes they will), who are the intolerant/fascist?

          Or as Jefferson put it…”…let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.”

          Removing the freedom to combat it cuts both ways….and who controls the narrative is not set in stone.
          • Robert Guyton 15.2.1.1.1

            16 July 2018 at 1:12 pm

            ” But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force…”
            Seems timing is the issue; wait til the rioting starts, or move before it gathers steam. Isn’t that the issue here? I’m thinking of the Moriori and Ngati Mutenga – had the Moriori elders confiscated the Maori patu, the whole iwi might have been saved from slaughter and slavery.
            • Pat 15.2.1.1.1.1

              16 July 2018 at 1:28 pm

              Timing is important…yes, as is not falling into the trap of making assumptions….but if there is no discussion (no matter how uncomfortable) assumptions are far too easily made.

              As to the Moriori and patu..if I understand correctly then it is equally possible the confiscated weaponry could have been used to commit atrocities against Maori by Moriori…well never know, but I guess we could assume.
              • Robert Guyton …

                16 July 2018 at 2:23 pm

                They’d have chucked the patu/mere into the ocean, as they had long before developed a system of conflict resolution that avoided killing – a stick the width of a thumb each and the first to draw blood stops and wins. Mutunga had no such governor.
                • Pat …

                  16 July 2018 at 2:32 pm

                  I’ll take your word for it
      • McFlock 15.2.2

        16 July 2018 at 1:07 pm

        “As long as”…

        Does it look like the current alt-right is countered by rational argument or kept in check by public opinion? Because to me it looks like rational argument is ineffective and they veritably thrive on opprobium.
        • Pat 15.2.2.1

          16 July 2018 at 1:21 pm

          so why feed them?
          • McFlock 15.2.2.1.1

            16 July 2018 at 2:05 pm

            Fair point.

            Personally, while they don’t give a fuck, I think it’s important that waiverers don’t get sucked in to thinking that the beliefs are socially acceptable. Some will still join, but some won’t.

            By weeding around the plant, it cuts competition for ground nutrients so the plant thrives, but similarly it stops a convolvulus-like spread along the ground.

            And when the plant gets big and ugly enough, hopefully it’s easier to trim selectively.
16. SaveNZ 16

    16 July 2018 at 12:44 pm

    Elderly parents of migrants left in limbo over visa changes

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/361903/elderly-parents-of-migrants-left-in-limbo-over-visa-changes

    Reuniting families is great but it should be up to them to provide for their family. Having most of the hospital beds full of overseas elderly who never paid taxes in NZ and often wealthier, and taking beds from Kiwi taxpayers on long waiting lists, while reducing our quality medical care by having the system overloaded with high needs people, is not fair.

    The compromise should be only those well enough parents can come to NZ, they have a long term visa of 3 years that they renew and they have to provide private health cover for the duration of their visa and prove they have the means to support themselves in NZ.

    There is nothing stopping NZ migrants going back to their country of origin to see and look after their family members. This is especially true when the whole strategy of immigration was around having more migrants to pay for the NZ elderly, instead it’s going the opposite way, and NZ elderly facing huge hospital waiting lists as more overseas elderly are coming over and enjoying our free system.
17. Ed 17

    16 July 2018 at 1:08 pm

    Around 400,000 children in Yemen are suffering from severe acute malnutrition.

    To quote Sarah Abdullah, “Perhaps if we said that “the Russians” were responsible for starving millions of children to death in Yemen instead of US-UK-backed Saudi Arabia, then the world would finally express some long-overdue outrage.”
18. Ed 18

    16 July 2018 at 1:10 pm

    To quote Khaled Beydoun.

    “Dear France,

    Congratulations on winning the World Cup.
    80% of your team is African, cut out the racism and xenophobia.
    50% of your team are Muslims, cut out the Islamophobia.
    Africans and Muslims delivered you a second World Cup, now deliver them justice.”
    • Gosman 18.1

      16 July 2018 at 3:29 pm

      The person’s choice of Religion has little to no impact of their ability as a Football player. Muslim’s didn’t do anything to deliver a second World Cup for France.
19. Ed 19

    16 July 2018 at 1:16 pm

    Stuff you won’t hear in the western media.

    “Child Killers
    15-year old Amir and 16-year old Loai, lived as close friends and killed tod15-year old Amir and 16-year old Loai, lived as close friends and killed today while playing when Israeli missiles rained down on Al-Katiba site west of Gaza city. 13-07-2018.”

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2018/07/14/child-killers/
20. R.P Mcmurphy 20

    16 July 2018 at 2:47 pm

    that rotten little terd barry soper is at it again poormouthing the government.
    He never actually says just exactly what it is David Clarke was supposed to be doing during the nurses strike but instead trots out a whole lot of assertions cobbled together to leave a bad smell. and he is greedy an venal. how much does he “COLLECT” each time one of his mealy mouthed productions get published every time it is reprinted in the nations provincial rags?
    • patricia bremner 20.1

      16 July 2018 at 4:22 pm

      yes… I find Soper has a meme going. A bitter little man.
      • In Vino 20.1.1

        16 July 2018 at 6:15 pm

        In my time as a unionist it was always emphasised that the Minister must never interfere or get involved. In theory, negotiations, strikes, lock-outs etc were up to the two negotiating parties, and the Minister had to remain neutral and outside of it all, or encourage mediation at the most.
        So what exactly do Duplicity Allen and Soper believe that the Minister should be here in NZ for?
        To sit urgently on the sideline and remain uninvolved? Duplicity Allen certainly gave no reason in her rant. I have not read Soper’s contribution, but suspect it is bumsmoke of similar ilk.
21. Gosman 21

    16 July 2018 at 3:22 pm

    Fascinating article about Greece’s slow recovery. What I find amazing is that Syriza was being held up by many on the left World wide and on here as emblematic of some new approach to politics and the Neo-liberal economic paradigm. Looks like they became just another Social democratic sell out party.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/15/greece-exit-final-international-bailout-debt-catastrophe
    • Nic the NZer 21.1

      16 July 2018 at 7:57 pm

      How much choice do you suggest Syriza had in the matter? The IMF, EU and ECB stipulated almost every condition in their current budget to the Greek government as a bailout condition.
      • corodale 21.1.1

        16 July 2018 at 8:15 pm

        Yep, it’s no wander that Hungarian leaders are talking about post-democratic solutions. Not that I’m suggesting there is anything democratic about IMF, EU or ECB. Yeah, not even the EU. Who cares about that vote? And the other half of the EU system is appoints anyway. The UK jumping ship, can be seen positively.
      • Gosman 21.1.2

        17 July 2018 at 5:17 am

        Exactly.
22. SaveNZ 22

    16 July 2018 at 4:13 pm

    Are the media and government too frightened to point out the ethnicity of the majority 52% of overstayers??? Weird they report the 48% ethnicities but silent on the majority of overstayers.

    Bit like prosecuting the people traffickers, they pick on the Island traffickers rather than other ethnicities they don’t want too offend or maybe want to turn a blind eye to those ethnicities trafficked or overstaying in NZ so they can be used as cheap labour?

    Also interesting that money is not being funded to stop the current overstayers. Bit of a blind eye being turned then to the current problem and how they are surviving an boasting up the cash economy aka putting legitimate other businesses out of work…

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/360623/overstayer-numbers-up-as-immigration-officers-stretched
23. Bill 23

    16 July 2018 at 4:18 pm

    About Tories and Republicans and that facebook stuff….

    Jeremy Corbyn’s former spokesperson has blamed Labour HQ for hobbling his election campaign following claims senior party staff used targeted Facebook adverts to mislead the leader about what messages were being sent to voters.

    It has been alleged Labour Party campaign chiefs secretly refused to run campaigns Mr Corbyn and his closest aides wanted in 2017 – and instead of running the national advertising they were supposed to, simply put targeted adverts in personal Facebook feeds belonging to the leader and his acolytes to give them the false impression they had been widely disseminated.

    Enough direct quotes thrown into the article, though a lot of the attributions are a bit vague…

    Still. Will be “interesting” if the whole thing gets fleshed out and firmed up in any subsequent reporting.

    My initial impression is around echoes of NZ Labour’s election when David Cunliffe was leader.
24. CHCOff 24

    16 July 2018 at 6:25 pm

    For abit of NZ Corbynism in cutting to the chase of devolution & decentralisation:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1807/S00187/lgnz-and-the-new-zealand-initiative-start-project-localism.htm

    That is dandy but it requires something that currently is not if it is to be any different.

    That is to say, it requires wide spread financial literacy (rather than widespread financial illiteracy), which in practical terms means results of removing the power in-balances that create the layers of red tape and bureaucratic fiefdoms.

    This is an endemic problem because in practical terms what it means in application is removing double entry accounting for single entry accounting and the one ledger, using receipts and invoices as the verification instead, and standardised function to the form of financial reports, with common templates and standardisations for both.

    NZ1st!

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
25. corodale 25

    16 July 2018 at 7:45 pm

    Deutsche Post – have developed their own electic scooters. https://t3n.de/news/streetscooter-deutsche-post-814375/
    Which NZ state owned enterprise has the balls to roll an assembly plant for electic cars? The auto industry is putting the brakes on, too much market power concentration. It’s just a case of sources and assembly existing tech. Simple tech when compared to complex combustion engines. It’s the logistics of getting it to market which is the barrier. The Green Investment Bank could give support.
26. eco maori 26

    17 July 2018 at 7:34 am

    Good morning The Am Show there you go trumps meeting with Putin was all about trump trying to clear his name .????????????????????
    With the predator free Aotearoa some tangata tell reality and the neo libreals just keep peddling there lies and fantasies .I argree with the Idear of having fenced sanctuaries all over Aotearoa that are predator free and the wild life will be protected in them and as there populations grow they will flow out into the other native bushes .
    I just figured out that Frances national animal is the Rooster this answers a few questions for Eco Maori good win people . We need to promote all cultures that respect Papatuanuku and think about there mokopunas future as France does .Ka pai
    I see the sandflys are putting there best spinning foot forward once again I must thank them for the Eco Maori effect they can’t see that what I say is ———- Ana to kai
    Ka kite ano
27. Eco Maori 27

    17 July 2018 at 6:57 pm

    Good evening Newshub the Rainbow Nation France deserve to celebrate their success of winning the football World Cup Ka pai.
    Congratulations to all the Kiwi rowers who are competing I say you are all stars.
    Mike some people mite think that useing the word crack is a joke it no joke to ECO MAORI.
    They think I can’t read there motives.
    Ingrid it was a bit warmer today I think a great big carving themed on Papatuanukue would be a good thing to promote Aotearoa to Te Papatuanukue.
    Ka kite ano P.S Some old – – – – – – who have been suppressioning Maori culture will be jumping up and down on the thought of that happening

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