Open mike 16/08/2021

41 comments on “Open mike 16/08/2021 ”

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1. Jenny how to get there 1

   16 August 2021 at 7:13 am

   Has the Groundswell movement subsided?

   They had their 'Howl of Protest'

   Groundswell leaders gave the government notice, if the government didn't accede to their demands by the 15th of August they would be planning further action.

   What's next for Groundswell NZ?

   Rachael Kelly, Jul 19 2021

   …..At the protests, the group put the Government on notice, giving it a month to listen to farmers and work towards an acceptable outcome, or further action would be taken.

   …..“We’ve given the Government a month, so we have to honour that, so we can’t start making plans until after August 15,’’ he said.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125795974/whats-next-for-groundswell-nz?
   • DB Brown 1.1

     16 August 2021 at 9:38 am

     Looking at Groundswell's facebook profile of 25K people who've followed the page (it gives you notifications of the pages activities if you follow) I've learned some interesting things.

     Non-farmers with an anti-government stance have jumped on their bandwagon. Opportunist instigators of all colour and stripes, (mostly white and politically right persuasion) have leapt onboard. You will find among those following your: anti-vaxxers, climate deniers, ACTors, New Conservatives, Nats…

     Farmers may be convinced they have a massive groundswell, and let's be real, these numbers are not insignificant. While it seems more an ad-hoc collection of self appointed 'victims' cheering on an angry mob, there is likely now a significant number of our farmers in this group, nursing significant grievance (justified, or not).

     Ute tax aside, the farmers are concerned with:

     Water regulations
     Land regulations
     Planting (and thus ploughing) regulations
     Slope regulations

     Laws have a tendency to override unique situations, yet every farm is unique. It can't be easy trying to tame this beast.

     The messaging is unfortunately clouded by aggrieved taggers on who keep trying to drag farmers into their issues/platform. It's not so much a ute tax, though some are trying to induce tradies as fellow victims of tyranny, as it is the water and land regulations. The ute tax was merely a 'final straw' that saw the rise of this group.

     Unfortunately, the court of public opinion is now in session, and all those aggrieved idiots (urban and rural, right and left) who love to take an ounce of truth to build a hefty diatribe with, are doing so.

     Endless irrigation and the right to do to the land what one pleases is practically over. But understandably, there will be kickback. Just try regulating your spouse, or peers activities – see how well that goes down. Feedback then kickback then compromise. That's how people typically play out.

     A problem with helping resolve issues is the collection of new (justified or not) grievances. These via new aggrieved types to 'identify' with the group. The messaging is now being clouded by taggers on.

     The mocking from the left is everywhere. Just try acknowledge you got a covid shot, every idiot leaps in with Bill Gates and 5G jokes, like they've only got one joke in their playbook. Then we mock the right for having one joke (PC gone mad type theme) in theirs. It's time to stop this bullshit. Look how well mocking Trumps 'deplorables' went. They're still a massive danger to the world so long as the US let's it slide. Media loved trotting out the most braindead fuckstick they could find and claiming they represent the HUGE swathe of the electorate backing the GOP.

     We all want to be heard, we all want to belong, and feel validated. Groundswell is creating a groundswell like others have tried to do. The amassing of an eclectic (and aggrieved) bunch. Farmers are now in a new swamp. Can we help them out of it, or will we see the rise of a new political force: working class and right wing – with not an insignificant portion deeply invested in various conspiracies.

     Shall we talk about the farmers genuine grievances/concerns, or waffle intellectually about their perceived shortcomings and mock them over sound bites. From where I'm sitting, with their new found 'support' we could be here a long time charging the group with all manner of idiocy. But individual idiots by no means represent our farmers. Farming is not easy, any townie claiming it is should be charged with doing it for a season.

     Sneering from on high (or ruling from on high) never created useful change, or breached any divides. Support and education might help. Also, examining the new regulations, piece by piece, to see if they are actually fit for purpose, or the broad brushstrokes of academics who've never put boots on the ground.
     • Janet 1.1.1

       16 August 2021 at 10:41 am

       “ examining the new regulations, piece by piece, to see if they are actually fit for purpose,”

       This is exactly what the farmers are asking – and this time do it collaboratively with the real farmers and stewards of NZs farmlands.

       AND also recognise and acknowledge the work of the farmers who have already been farming sustainably for up to 3 decades in some cases now, because they have taken less into their pockets compared to "factory farmers" in deciding to do this.
       • DB Brown 1.1.1.1

         16 August 2021 at 10:58 am

         Absolutely. We should be celebrating some of this work, not masking it with indifference like it's no big deal, or worse, with scorn.

         I'd be fed up too.

         If we showcased our good farmers, and showed them some love, that love might just trickle down to those who feel overlooked or even neglected.

         We all need a bit of love.
         • vto 1.1.1.1.1

           16 August 2021 at 1:11 pm

           Mr Brown, they need to put their big boy pants on and stop crying. Their complaints are no different to those we all have about regulation and their effects. We all get nailed by unwanted regs. All of us. Grow up man.

           'Show them some love'… sheesh.. get over yourselves… bunch of cry babies
           • DB Brown 1.1.1.1.1.1

             16 August 2021 at 3:15 pm

             From where I'm sitting, it's you doing the whining and the name calling.

             Maybe you should suck it up, and try seeing past your upturned nose. Farmers are not all the same, but rubbishing them all will create a, hmmm, what's the word I'm looking for…

             And if you want to address me personally, it's not Brown or Mr Brown, it's DB. This is the second time I've told you that in only few days.
             • vto …

               16 August 2021 at 3:32 pm

               No, it isn't me doing the crying. It is the farmers doing the crying – that is what the protest is isn't it. I merely pointed out that we all get subjected to unfair regulation – but I dont see other sectors crying like this.

               And I didn't rubbish all farmers did I. No I didn't. It was very clearly aimed at the protesting farmers only.

               Perhaps read a little more closely.

               And yeah sure, cry babies is name-calling. I stand by it.
               • DB Brown …

                 16 August 2021 at 3:52 pm

                 No they're not crying, they're protesting. And you are protesting their protest – so what is it you are doing? Crying?

                 Really, we've had a month to digest this and kneejerk 'they're all idiots' reactions have merely led to a significant enlargement of their group. I was one of those kneejerk reactions to the initial protest, but unlike many, I'm trying not to carry the jerk part of it to my grave.

                 Trying to listen, and trying to understand how it is this group is gaining significant traction? Maybe it's people like you who just get others backs up, with nothing to contribute except name calling and spite.

                 You've implied they're babies, but you are mature?

                 Like I implied above, we mock at our own peril.

                 We mocked Trumps rural following, and Trump himself, at every opportunity. Personally I've never hated one person so much in my life. Every word he uttered, every stance he adopted was either fake or fucked up. I've met all sorts of sociopaths and liars, he was king of being utterly shit. But the voiceless will have their say and he gave them a voice.

                 But carry on hating, rather than trying to understand. Carry on mocking, rather than learning. The movement may very well get taken over by bad actors, I see them trying to align themselves already.

                 We mock at our own peril. We judge others through ignorance, not strength.
                 • vto …

                   17 August 2021 at 7:00 am

                   Yeah nah – forget about me and try commenting on the point itself . I have farming in my family, dna and bones, have worked and lived in it, and understand the issues and the culture and the sector as much as anyone. I sympathise with the issues they have.

                   But. But but but, I do not have sympathy for what, in my opinion, is outright whinging and crying.

                   Let me say again – we all have the very same issues (ute tax, RMA, land use changes, environmental requirements – my business suffers all these things) as these protesting farmers. Nobody else is whinging like them and imo the only reason they get away with this whinging is because of their larger numbers and outsized influence (oh, and being told they are special for generations). (Maybe DB you would like to comment on whether others do in fact have the exact same issues as these protestors? )

                   As to mocking, rude, etc…. Many of these protesting farmers like to call a spade a spade and all that. Check their signs during the protest. Many of their words were mocking, hateful, racist and the like. So…. my comment comes in that exact same vein that they themselves have set – stop being cry babies and just get on with it. wah wah
                   • DB Brown …

                     17 August 2021 at 8:10 am

                     I don't think you have a clue what's going on for Farmers. You've read the worst placards the media could trot out and made conclusions about the whole group.

                     You should read the conversations they're having. There's plenty for them to be concerned about, and to warrant further discussion and consideration.

                     One size fits all is penalising the cleanest farmers the worst, via their voluntary work to restore ecosystems (bought and paid for) which is now being ringfenced as SNA's they can't touch. There are community based catchment wide groups who've been working away for years, now getting overridden with countrywide laws for water. But catchment by catchment is the only way to get water right.

                     You need to stop generalising about a large group of people and mistaking the shrill opportunists for the real activism occurring against government intervention.

                     Suck it up is nonsense speak. Is this also your solution to mental health?
                   • vto …

                     17 August 2021 at 8:30 am

                     playing the man not the ball again eh … this… "You've read the worst placards the media could trot out and made conclusions about the whole group."….

                     …. that is a complete and total assumption. and totally incorrect (tho suits your narrative)

                     did you not read what i said above about my involvement with farming? did you not read my clarification that my point was solely about the protestors, not the whole group? did you not read my point that everyone else suffers the same issues?

                     and this "You need to stop generalising about a large group of people"… where have i done that? i haven't, other than the whinge.

                     and this, a complete sign of failure on your part "Is this also your solution to mental health?"… shame

                     for the umpteenth time, try reading what i write.. you know, the actual points, and stop commenting on what you think of me… play the ball not the man.. go on… try answering the actual point i made…. try the 'everyone suffers the same issues' one.. give it a crack jack, if you're up to it …
                   • DB Brown …

                     17 August 2021 at 8:53 am

                     If you read your comments, and my replies, I am addressing your comments. But you have adopted the role of victim.

                     You asked for Farmers points and I gave some. But still, a victim.

                     You were the one demanding people harden up, I just put it in another context so you might get some idea how you sound.

                     Now jog off, I've better to do than answer you when you're not actually interested in the Farmers issues at all, rather, bagging them and me. And the whole victim thing.
                   • vto …

                     17 August 2021 at 2:10 pm

                     ha, yeah sure, no problem

                     …

                     so the farmers concerns are the same concerns that face everyone in business – they are no different in type or scale

                     yet others don't complain to anything like the same extent

                     …

                     is my point in as few words as possible, so as to avoid undue personal allegation

                     feel free to refute
                     or save it for another day on another thread – it is bound to arise again
   • Gypsy 1.2

     16 August 2021 at 1:50 pm

     They've just announced their next move.
2. Robert Guyton 2

   16 August 2021 at 9:17 am

   They've given Jacinda till 5 o'clock today 🙂
   • Jenny how to get there 2.1

     16 August 2021 at 10:46 am

     Any source for that?

     My feeling is that the massive Southland flooding around Ashburton and Westport, coming after a period of drought, on top of all the recent climate disasters world wide, plus farmers' need for government aid in the face of such disasters, may have punctured groundswell support somewhat.

     Maybe the 5pm deadline will come and go, and that will be it.
     • Gabby 2.1.1

       16 August 2021 at 11:32 am

       Southland?
       • weka 2.1.1.1

         16 August 2021 at 4:45 pm

         Westport and Southland used to be closer together geographically, but not Ashburton.
     • Gypsy 2.1.2

       16 August 2021 at 1:51 pm

       Apparently not.
   • Ad 2.2

     16 August 2021 at 12:28 pm

     If Labour keep losing points every week, it's a good time to ask them for anything.

     You never know until you ask. Asking loud with tens of thousands of voters behind you never hurts either.
3. Patricia Bremner 3

   16 August 2021 at 10:45 am

   Then they have joined the "Are we there yet?" mob Robert.
   • Patricia Bremner 3.1

     16 August 2021 at 1:46 pm

     This should have attached to your comment Robert. Not sure what happened.
4. tc 4

   16 August 2021 at 11:38 am

   Club watch: media personality gets rant about neighbors yard published in granny.

   Clickbait herald at it again.
5. Gosman 5

   16 August 2021 at 12:19 pm

   Latest UMR poll confirming recent trends.

   [Take the rest of the day off for not linking and your non-sensical comment. If you act like a troll, you’ll be treated as one – Incognito]
   • Chris T 5.1

     16 August 2021 at 12:28 pm

     Might help. But agree.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-poll-labour-down-national-up-but-acts-david-seymour-extends-lead-over-judith-collins/7UMNHKM2QRQRP2Z3CNOTPVGSLA/

     [broken link fixed]
     • Ad 5.1.1

       16 August 2021 at 12:29 pm

       Seymour is now the Jim Anterton of the right.
       • Chris T 5.1.1.1

         16 August 2021 at 12:31 pm

         Lol
     • Bearded Git 5.1.2

       16 August 2021 at 3:40 pm

       Chris T-That link doesn't work
       • Sabine 5.1.2.1

         16 August 2021 at 3:45 pm

         still does here

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-poll-labour-down-national-up-but-acts-david-seymour-extends-lead-over-judith-collins/7UMNHKM2QRQRP2Z3CNOTPVGSLA/

         A new UMR poll has shown Labour's popularity has taken a hit, dropping from 48 per cent in July to 43 per cent this month – while NZ First has jumped back into the zone of viability on 4.4 per cent.

         The New Zealand Insight poll for UMR's corporate clients has Labour on 43 (down five points), and National on 28 per cent – that is up four points since last month.

         It is Labour's lowest result in the UMR poll since March 2020, when it was on 42 per cent before the Covid-19 lockdowns hit New Zealand.

         UMR also does separate polling for the Labour Party and the results of that poll are not known. …….

         ………

         The results are very similar to a Newshub Reid-Research poll taken at about the same time, which had Labour dropping by almost 10 points to 43 per cent, and Act and National going up to 11.1 per cent and 28.7 per cent respectively.

         The UMR polling period started a week after the "howl of a protest" which saw farmers and tradies take to the streets to protest the pace and scope of Government reforms.
         • Bearded Git 5.1.2.1.1

           17 August 2021 at 10:42 am

           Thanks Sabine
   • Incognito 5.2

     16 August 2021 at 12:39 pm

     See my Moderation note @ 12:19 pm.
     • Chris T 5.2.1

       16 August 2021 at 12:53 pm

       Labour still kicking arse though, so I kind of need to give them big ups for consistency.

       Edit: Sorry, Meant me personally give big ups.
   • McFlock 5.3

     16 August 2021 at 1:04 pm

     Looks like "coltheman" was full of shit. Unless UMR ran one poll that had 2% between the two main blocs, and a few days later ran another that had 10% between them.
     • Rapunzel 5.3.1

       16 August 2021 at 2:03 pm

       Politik also had it first thing this morning too but then removed it pending investigating the validity of any of it – the outcome of that has not as yet been posted

       Disappointing when you're paying for usually reliable facts, news, information
   • Alan 5.4

     16 August 2021 at 2:50 pm

     How is that trolling?

     How is that nonsensical?

     There is new UMR poll out today – fact

     The poll shows a continuation of the trends we have seen in other recent polls – fact
     • Incognito 5.4.1

       16 August 2021 at 3:33 pm

       Some never learn

       Lprent moderated you for the same thing on a post in 2015 on a political poll, coincidentally:

       This is your warning. Trying to usurp the role of a moderator and wasting my time again will result in long ban from this site. I was thinking of a couple of months… I figure that it’d take you that amount of time to read the policy.

       https://thestandard.org.nz/colmar-poll/#comment-1002133

       I could not’ve said it better!

       Please take heed or you can take the rest of the year off.
6. Sacha 6

   16 August 2021 at 3:38 pm

   Afghanistan seems to have people reaching.

   https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1426955055350132739
   • Molly 6.1

     16 August 2021 at 3:52 pm

     Not on Twitter, but two questions:

     Who is Maryam, and why should I give time to her views? ( Even to decry them.)

     I can't link to her account on my phone, so is she someone in a position of power, or just someone with a Twitter account?
7. Stuart Munro 7

   16 August 2021 at 3:40 pm

   Wildfires in Siberia – ramping up those carbon dioxide level. ABC video.
8. Sacha 8

   16 August 2021 at 7:10 pm

   Figure if we want to use them as fodder for unrelated discussions the least we can do is compensate them for it.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1

     16 August 2021 at 10:03 pm

     Agree re 'fodder' – disappointing imho.

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