Open mike 16/11/2022

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1. tsmithfield 1

   16 November 2022 at 7:56 am

   In the latest barrage of Russian missile strikes on Ukraine, two have hit Poland, killing two people.

   https://twitter.com/ywnreporter/status/1592582175798743041

   Interesting times.
   • Stuart Munro 1.1

     16 November 2022 at 8:06 am

     Well, maybe it'll all be over by Christmas after all.

     Another story here.
   • Jenny are we there yet 1.2

     16 November 2022 at 10:07 am

     ‘

     Two differing accounts of the missile strike on Poland. Whether this missile strayed off course or was a deliberate attack on a Nato country, CNN reports it was concurrent with a "Wave of missile strikes" on Ukraine.

     Two deaths reported in Polish border town, as a wave of Russian missiles hit Ukraine

     By Tim Lister, Antonia Mortensen and Tara John, CNN

     Updated 2:49 PM EST, Tue November 15, 2022

     …..they landed in the NATO member’s territory roughly the same time as Russia launched its biggest wave of missile attacks on Ukrainian cities in more than a month……

     https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/15/europe/poland-missile-rocket-nato-przewodow-ukraine-intl/index.html

     Unattributed RT report denies that the missile that landed in Poland came from the missile strikes launched against Ukraine at the same time.

     15 Nov, 2022 19:59

     Home Russia & FSU

     Russia denies striking Poland

     ….the Russian Defense Ministry said. Russia has carried out no strikes on the area along Ukraine’s border with Poland, the military added.

     DETAILS TO FOLLOW

     https://www.rt.com/russia/566589-russia-no-strikes-on-poland/?

     I don't have to guess what details will follow: Going on their past MO Russia will accuse Ukraine of staging the attack on Poland to try and bring Nato into the war.

     https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-s-lavrov-says-syria-chemical-weapons-attack-was-staged-n865686
     • mikesh 1.2.1

       16 November 2022 at 2:34 pm

       I don't think Russia would have any interest in firing missiles at Poland so, either they were intended for Ukraine but Russia's aim was not accurate, or it was a "false flag" move by Ukraine, though for what purpose is unclear.
       • aj 1.2.1.1

         16 November 2022 at 2:46 pm

         I don't think Russia would have any interest in firing missiles

         Always ask, who profits.

         Funny how this has happened just at the time US military high command is suggesting its time for negotiation for peace.
         • Jenny are we there yet 1.2.1.1.1

           16 November 2022 at 7:50 pm

           I don't think Russia would have any interest in firing missiles…

           They must have some interest in firing missiles, they've fired a lot of them.

           https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/05/ukraine-war-fact-russia-has-fired-off-more-than-1100-missiles/
           • aj 1.2.1.1.1.1

             16 November 2022 at 9:52 pm

             … at Poland …
2. Sanctuary 2

   16 November 2022 at 8:03 am

   Googles "size of Polish army"
   • Visubversa 2.1

     16 November 2022 at 8:22 am

     Googles "NATO membership".
   • Brigitte 2.2

     16 November 2022 at 8:24 am

     As Poland is in NATO, you might also google "size of NATO countries armies"
   • tsmithfield 2.3

     16 November 2022 at 8:39 am

     Accident or not on the part of Russia, NATO, or Poland directly, has little choice but to make a strong response to this situation because otherwise Russia will see it as a green light to keep targeting Nato countries.
     • joe90 2.3.1

       16 November 2022 at 8:49 am

       NATO has an escalation ladder so no WW3, yet.

       https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1592598256512798720
       • tsmithfield 2.3.1.1

         16 November 2022 at 8:53 am

         I agree that the NATO response probably won't be a direct military response at this stage.

         But there will have to be a credible strong response that is sufficient to deter Russia from doing that again.

         Ukraine probably will get better weapons now as a result of this. I think they should get the long range ATACM missiles they have been asking for for ages. This will allow them to target the Russian air bases and launch sites the Russians are using for these attacks. Thus, further protect Ukraine, and NATO countries as well.
         • joe90 2.3.1.1.1

           16 November 2022 at 9:37 am

           Biden and co won't want to be in the books about how the war started. I reckon top end air defence systems rather than long range missiles.
           • Jenny are we there yet 2.3.1.1.1.1

             16 November 2022 at 10:38 am

             Close the sky

             Ukraine has previously called for a free fly zone over at least a part of Ukraine. With this attack on a NATO member country, a free fly zone over the Western half of Ukraine bordering Poland and Moldova, makes a lot of sense.

             ……Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy virtually addressed the United States Congress on March 16, 2022, and, as widely expected, requested additional U.S. military assistance for Ukraine.

             Zelenskyy also asked for the U.S. to create a no-fly zone over some portion, or potentially all, of Ukraine.

             “Russia has turned the Ukrainian sky into a source of death for thousands of people. Russian troops have already fired nearly 1,000 missiles at Ukraine, countless bombs. They use drones to kill us with precision. This is a terror Europe has not seen for 80 years,” said Zelenskyy, delivering the first virtual address by a foreign leader to Congress….

             …..“Is this a lot to ask, to create a no fly zone over Ukraine to save people? Is this too much to ask? A humanitarian non-fly zone, so that Russia would not be able to terrorize our free cities,” Zelenskyy continued.

             Zelenskyy paused during his address to play a video documenting the war in Ukraine. That video ended with the words, “close the skies over Ukraine.”

             https://theconversation.com/ukraine-wants-a-no-fly-zone-what-does-this-mean-and-would-one-make-any-sense-in-this-war-179282
             • tsmithfield …

               16 November 2022 at 1:15 pm

               Not much point to a no-fly zone as the Ukrainians effectively have that now. In fact, in some areas, the Ukrainian airforce has been dominant. So, a nofly zone would simply penalise the Ukrainians.

               Russian planes hardly dare go into Ukrainian air-space due to the bristilling air defence. The missiles tend to be fired by Russian planes outside of Ukrainian air space.

               I think what they need to be supplied is longer-range precision missiles such as ATACMs so they can take out the missiles before they are even launched. This would mean targeting Russian air bases and the like.

               If the missiles can be taken out before launch, that reduces the risk of Russian missiles to Nato countries as well.
     • DB Brown 2.3.2

       16 November 2022 at 9:06 am

       One missile – plausible accident.

       Two?

       Guess we need to know the exact pedigree of the missiles, as to their accuracy, track record, etc.
       • joe90 2.3.2.1

         16 November 2022 at 9:34 am

         They'll know.

         https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1592596493252591617
         • Scud 2.3.2.1.1

           16 November 2022 at 12:50 pm

           It appears to be remains of a UKR S300 intercept of a Russian cruise missile over Livi in Western Ukraine.

           At best, it will a be an Article 4 response from NATO. No need for the Poles to go to Article 5 in the NATO Charter.

           Likelihood of more calls to close Western Ukraine Airspace, would be my assumption atm.
         • Francesca 2.3.2.1.2

           16 November 2022 at 5:30 pm

           NATO/Poland are full of shit if they're saying the missiles were definitely fired by Russia
           • gsays 2.3.2.1.2.1

             16 November 2022 at 7:36 pm

             I felt for the war porn aficionados today, waking to news Russia had bombed Poland. At their keyboards, typing one handed, only to end the day with Biden pouring cold water on the idea.
             • aj …

               16 November 2022 at 8:59 pm

               Three U.S. officials said preliminary assessments suggested the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian one amid the crushing salvo against Ukraine’s electrical infrastructure Tuesday. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

               https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/missile-that-landed-in-poland-may-have-been-fired-by-ukrainian-forces-against-an-incoming-russian-one-say-u-s-officials/ar-AA14asoY
       • Francesca 2.3.2.2

         17 November 2022 at 9:05 am

         Indeed

         Now that we know it was Ukrainian missiles…..
         • Stuart Munro 2.3.2.2.1

           17 November 2022 at 9:27 am

           Not with certainty.

           Though out of range for direct fire from Russian territory, there are many S300s in Belarus, which for a long time was the chief manufacturing centre for them. And Russia has used S300 missiles on ground targets before.

           Having failed militarily, Russia would love to prise Ukraine away from its allies and supporters by creating an incident.
     • mikesh 2.3.3

       17 November 2022 at 7:59 am

       "Keep?" targeting NATO countries?
3. Ed1 3

   16 November 2022 at 8:28 am

   A while ago there was talk of how hard it is to get positive messages through in a world of highly partisan politics, disinformation, and the usual problems of gotcha media going for cheap shots and false balance . . .

   I suspect we get a lot of news and comment through the internet; leaving aside the faults of official media, we now have many websites that peddle personal opinions that are at times extreme. The following is a list of sites that I collected over a few days of websites that appear to cover political issues to at least some extent. They include what appear to be a return of dirty tricks, to deliberately deceptive sites, to those expressing extreme or even deranged opinions from authors that appear to have fallen down a rabbit hole. I tried to decide where each lay on a scale or -10 for negative views of the current government, to +10 for those consistently positive about the current government. I have not included Facebook of other "social media," and I may have missed some that are worth looking at – I certainly hope there are other sites with high positive or good balance like The Standard!

   1	https://theplatform.kiwi/
   2	https://thebfd.co.nz/
   3	https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/
   4	https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/
   5	https://homepaddock.wordpress.com/
   6	https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/home
   7	https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/
   8	https://www.nzcpr.com/
   9	https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/
   10	https://hatchardreport.com/
   11	https://www.fsu.nz/
   12	https://waikanaewatch.org/
   13	https://spectator.com.au/category/new-zealand/
   14	https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/
   15	http://karldufresne.blogspot.com/
   16	http://werewolf.co.nz/
   17	https://theredbaiter.com/
   18	http://norightturn.blogspot.com/
   19	https://www.pundit.co.nz/
   20	https://thespinoff.co.nz/
   21	https://homepaddock.wordpress.com/
   22	https://croakingcassandra.com/
   23	https://thedailyblog.co.nz/
   24	https://utopiayouarestandinginit.com/
   25	https://nominister.wordpress.com/
   26	https://stovouno.org/
   27	https://croakingcassandra.com/
   28	http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/
   29	https://publicaddress.net/hardnews/
   30	https://thedailyblog.co.nz/
   31	http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/
   1	https://theplatform.kiwi/
   2	https://thebfd.co.nz/
   3	https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/
   4	https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/
   5	https://homepaddock.wordpress.com/
   6	https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/home
   7	https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/
   8	https://www.nzcpr.com/
   9	https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/
   10	https://hatchardreport.com/
   11	https://www.fsu.nz/
   12	https://waikanaewatch.org/
   13	https://spectator.com.au/category/new-zealand/
   14	https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/
   15	http://karldufresne.blogspot.com/
   16	http://werewolf.co.nz/
   17	https://theredbaiter.com/
   18	http://norightturn.blogspot.com/
   19	https://www.pundit.co.nz/
   20	https://thespinoff.co.nz/
   21	https://homepaddock.wordpress.com/
   22	https://croakingcassandra.com/
   23	https://thedailyblog.co.nz/
   24	https://utopiayouarestandinginit.com/
   25	https://nominister.wordpress.com/
   26	https://stovouno.org/
   27	https://croakingcassandra.com/
   28	http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/
   29	https://publicaddress.net/hardnews/
   30	https://thedailyblog.co.nz/
   31	http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/
   • Sacha 3.1

     16 November 2022 at 9:54 pm

     @mods – linkspam?
     • Incognito 3.1.1

       17 November 2022 at 12:34 pm

       Although it is an 'interesting' list it is duplicated (!?) and I can't see the alleged ranking from −10 to +10 for views on the current Government in it!?

       I would not encourage this sort of comments, also because they need to be released manually from the Spam trap.
       • Sacha 3.1.1.1

         17 November 2022 at 8:25 pm

         Duplicated and no ranking, only clickable links. Hence my diagnosis.
         • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1

           17 November 2022 at 8:30 pm

           I think it was done with good intentions but let down by poor execution.
4. joe90 4

   16 November 2022 at 9:36 am

   Early last week my SO arrived home home from work rather distressed after a row with the boss over refusing to attend a regional meeting. Turns out one of the traveling attendees was covid positive and today three of the local staff attending have tested positive. One, for the third time, and there will probably be more.

   #filthy
   • Sacha 4.1

     16 November 2022 at 10:03 am

     That's no good. Expect we will hear more similar stories over coming weeks. Yet this govt spurned expert advice about masking. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/cabinet-overrode-health-advice-to-retain-masks
     • mauī 4.1.1

       17 November 2022 at 5:47 pm

       Yet masking didn't stop or curtail our explosion of Covid back in March did it?

       Some Scandinavian countries, dropped masks altogether about a year ago. There are competing versions of expert advice.
       • Sacha 4.1.1.1

         17 November 2022 at 8:27 pm

         Yet masking didn't stop or curtail our explosion of Covid back in March did it?

         What are you basing that conclusion on? And the advice in question is from our own local pandemic experts, not overseas academics or suchlike.
   • Jimmy 4.2

     16 November 2022 at 3:16 pm

     "4 shots for summer" may be the next advertising campaign to keep us safe.
5. Sanctuary 5

   16 November 2022 at 9:58 am

   For those interested, an excellent Youtube interview with the author of this RUSI piece on the Ukraine airwar.

   TLDR – the early phase of this war crippled the Ukrainian airforce as it was forced to engage the Russians at a considerable disadvantage.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYDnspMWdaM
6. Molly 6

   16 November 2022 at 10:01 am

   Unlikely to be reported in our usual media, so you may be unaware of the incident at the Let Women Speak rally, in New York on Monday 14 November.

   Now the format for a Let Women Speak rally, is that the organiser – Kellie Jay Keen – turns up with a microphone and sound system and basically emcees an open mike, for women that want to talk. There's little curating of who speaks, if any. It is purely an event to encourage women to speak up on the impact on women's rights of legislative and policy changes. You can view previous rallies on the livestream of KJK's Youtube channel:

   https://www.youtube.com/c/KellieJayKeen/streams

   KJK was invited to the US, and took the format over there, and arranged rallies in public spaces – such as in front of New York town hall. A couple of events had to be cancelled due to the threats made to the women. Security was hired, and then unevidenced criticism was made that security was right-wing and aligned with fascists.

   Each event was advertised by Gender Ideology Activists as a hate event, and and open invitations were issued for people to turn up and do anything they considered necessary to address that hate.

   The perpetually oppressed never stop to consider that they are not stopped from marching by women (Brisbane this last weeekend) – but they are appalled at the idea of women publicly expressing their opinions, or gathering.

   So, what happened in New York?

   Due to the aggressive nature of the gender ideology proponents, many women, including KJK were unable to get to the event to speak.

   Belissa Cohen – a LGB activist posted this video that gives some insight into what is happening with these activists:

   From the left, the topless three are notable for:

   1. A good example of autogynephilia – a man so preoccupied with his hormone induced breast growth, he is indulging in his sexual arousal in public with no awareness of the protest around him, apart from the opportunity it gives him for exhibitionism;

   2. A trans-identified female – complete with double mastectomy scars, demonstrating a hatred for women by calling out to them either "bleeders" or "breeders". There are several videos of this group and one is of this woman declaring that she didn't want to be a woman, and how she is a boy who loves testosterone. (NB. Testosterone is a powerful drug – with euphoric effects for some). This woman was also a child model from the age of ten, which may have affected her experience of what female is, and how it is represented;

   3. The last contender has been identified as a prominent and feted trans-identified male. Employed also as a model and mentor of LGBTQ+ people, he spent much of the protest spitting on people he found objectionable (women) and declaring he was going to beat their asses, bitch.

   I'm always interested to hear (from those who refrain from scrolling past) the updated excuses for why 1 and 3 are vulnerable, and why women should unquestioningly make space for them in women's single-sex spaces and provisions.

   And also why men can't just hold safe spaces in their own single-sex spaces for their trans-identified brothers.

   https://twitter.com/BelissaCohen/status/1592544726955487233?s=20&t=xr4_-7QXnpe2EC0Fo6DlTw
   • millsy 6.1

     16 November 2022 at 11:22 am

     Indecent exposure is a crime, and the laws are in place to deal with this, no matter the gender identity of the criminal.

     Yes, there are bad trans people. There are bad gay people and bad cishet people.

     I don't think we should be tarring all transgender people with the same brush.

     You need to remember that the teachers who offended that Dilworth were all cisgender men.
     • Molly 6.1.1

       16 November 2022 at 11:39 am

       "Indecent exposure is a crime, and the laws are in place to deal with this, no matter the gender identity of the criminal."

       Apparently baring your breasts in NYC is not indecent exposure. Spitting at people might be however. Breasts don't bother me much, TBH, the thought of someone's saliva has more to be concerned about in this day and age, don't you think?

       "Yes, there are bad trans people. There are bad gay people and bad cishet people."

       I don't disagree – apart from the cishet – I don't follow this belief so the term is nonsensical. You might have just stated the obvious, some people are bad.

       Did you miss the part when I said that No. 3 was a well-known and profiled activist and mentor?

       So not a random idiot, a promoted spokeperson for the community.

       "You need to remember that the teachers who offended that Dilworth were all cisgender men."

       Why do you assume I have forgotten?

       Is it because you "forget" that all transwomen are men?

       No comment on the antagonism shown by the non-rally attendees only?

       Or the public display of the often denied aspect of autogynephilia?

       Or the fear and hate directed at women who are gathering to speak their opinions in a public space?

       Thanks for providing yet another example of redirection and totally ignoring the content of the issue at hand.

       I knew you wouldn't let me down, millsy.
     • weka 6.1.2

       16 November 2022 at 12:21 pm

       I don't think we should be tarring all transgender people with the same brush.

       Who do you think is doing that? I'm not seeing anyone here doing that. I wouldn't even tar all AGP with the same brush.

       You need to remember that the teachers who offended that Dilworth were all cisgender men.

       So close and yet still not quite getting it. Yes, most people who sexually offend are male. This is exactly why we have female only spaces. It doesn't mean all men, or even most, are sexual offenders, it means that if we stop thinking about men for a minute and look at this from the perspective of women, we see that the most straight forward way of protecting women from the high rates of sexual assault and harrassment by men is to arrange society so that women have female only spaces.

       I've not seen any evidence that trans women or other trans-identified males sexually offend at a lower rate than the general male population. Again, this doesn't mean all or even most TW are sexual offenders. It means that when we consider the safety of women, we should consider males of whatever gender identity as the class that women need protecting from.

       The safety of TW can be addressed likewise, without removing the safety of women.
     • Visubversa 6.1.3

       16 November 2022 at 12:50 pm

       "Cishet" displays your fealty to Gender Ideology. Humans are not divided into 2 categories based on a supposed relationship with their sexed bodies. Forced division without approval or permission is insulting and oppressive.
       • swordfish 6.1.3.1

         16 November 2022 at 3:44 pm

         .

         "cis" or "cisgender" is another term for virtually everyone.

         Invented largely for political reasons within Queer Theory & Gender Studies … it seeks to massively exaggerate the size of the trans community while inherently downplaying the relevance of biological sex.

         For Gender ideologues, cisgender means that one's "gender identity" and "sex assigned at birth" (as opposed to biological sex) match up.

         "Sex assigned at birth" is seen as an act of power, indeed of deliberate violence … so, specifying "sex assigned at birth" instead of biological sex allows these activists to maintain the Queer Theory dogmas that (1) sex itself is socially constructed and that (2) sex categorisation is illegitimately imposed on new-born babies by Doctors, Parents & others who supposedly possess sociopolitical power … (rather than biological sex being a simple fact of human reality).

         In other words, they're total fantasists (in the same way that Critical Theory / Woke ideologues are in general) … and very controlling, demanding, authoritarian fantasists at that.
     • The Fairy Godmother 6.1.4

       16 November 2022 at 1:25 pm

       Obviously we aren't but the trans movement has been infiltrated by violent and misogynistic men who are using it to get away with stuff. Self ID laws and the like have not taken this into account.
       • weka 6.1.4.1

         16 November 2022 at 3:51 pm

         at this stage I wouldn't say infiltrated so much as welcomed with open arms. Left wing men defacto arguing that rape of women in prison is an acceptable price to pay for keeping TW safe. Left wing women saying that rape survivors need to manage their triggers better when males come into their single sex spaces. It's not like the evidence hasn't been there, presented by the pariah feminists. Even before self ID. The choices were made to put aside the concerns of women, and make the changes anyway.
         • The Fairy Godmother 6.1.4.1.1

           16 November 2022 at 9:10 pm

           Weka you are right. I was being too kind.
   • weka 6.2

     16 November 2022 at 12:15 pm

     very good comment Molly.

     I would add a couple of points.

     #1 and #3 in other vids, it took me a while to figure out exactly the problem here (because we know that women use nudity as part of protest). What they look like to me are men who want the right to masturbate in public. Any conversation about trans women's rights that doesn't included discussion of AGP is a fail.

     #2, the trans man is someone presumably who hates their female body to the extent that they had their breasts removed to make their life tolerable. Society needs to stop and consider if people with such degrees of mental distress should be driving policy and social change.
     • weka 6.2.1

       16 November 2022 at 12:26 pm

       on reflection, it's not simply the right to masturbate in public, it's the right to do so at women they hate. I'm struggling to think of worse public expression of misogyny than that video.

       That the police didn't intervene is both astounding and scary in its implications. Haven't looked at NY indecency laws.
       • Nic the NZer 6.2.1.1

         16 November 2022 at 12:45 pm

         Last time I checked men going shirtless was not considered public nudity. I don't think failing to invent a crime is really a good basis for police criticism here.
         • Molly 6.2.1.1.1

           16 November 2022 at 1:10 pm

           The NYPD seemed to respond appropriately throughout the day, calling in special operations unit to disperse the crowd and providing human barriers between the small group of women and the crowd.

           It's always a judgment call on the day. I don't think they did much that can be genuinely criticised.
         • weka 6.2.1.1.2

           16 November 2022 at 1:13 pm

           did you miss the bit in my comments where I differentiated between nudity and obscenity? In this case, public self pleasuring sexually is an act that involves others without their consent. I don't know if indecency laws cover what that man is doing, as I said in my comment.

           And of course, we know that women don't generally behave like this, and that there are hefty societal and physical risk pressures that prevent women from having the freedom to be in public topless.

           There’s also the issue of what would happen to the police of they reacted to the men as if they were men. But I’m guessing there is no topless law in NY for either men or women.
     • Molly 6.2.2

       16 November 2022 at 12:38 pm

       "What they look like to me are men who want the right to masturbate in public."

       Another regular activist who attended yesterday (with previous record of doxxing women), might confirm your suspicions.

       (I know many here might not believe it, but I don't post the most contentious pictures or videos I come across, I posted the one above because of the role the third one has in the community, while publicly threatening women with violence).

       The following video from the same event, posted by a women's right activist (not one I particularly agree with) with a AGP enjoying the simulation of masturbation maybe a bit too much at the end:

       https://twitter.com/StandingforXX/status/1592318236628221953?s=20&t=x5CuKlkN0eksd20w87CU-A

       Was interesting to note how the different cultures responded to the same format. Really noticeable distinctions between the women speaking at the UK events and the US ones.
       • weka 6.2.2.1

         16 November 2022 at 6:52 pm

         it's the visual on the ground equivalent of 'suck my trans dick'.

         For those not familiar with the online version,

         https://terfisaslur.com/
     • Molly 6.2.3

       16 November 2022 at 1:07 pm

       Along this train of thought, while I was looking into the issues of consent and the mixed messages regarding intimate relationships from many of the LGBTQ+ support organisations, I watched part of a programme about transgender people finding love.

       I didn't watch it all, there was a featured piece about a well-known transgender teenage dream couple that had finally split up after promoting their transgender identities and relationship status during their teenage years. It turned out that there was little or no physical intimacy, and that their relationship was more performative than personal.

       However, there was a particularly memorable young trans-identified male, who had been supported during their transition by a close male friend over the years. They had finally got the courage to directly ask their supportive male friend, now that they had finished their transition, whether they could take their friendship to a personal relationship.

       The response was immediate and definite: it was better if they kept their connection to friendship only.

       A couple of thoughts struck me when I watched this segment, and saw the change in demeanour of the young trans-identified man:

       What if – this young man was one of the many gay teenagers who had developed a crush on their heterosexual close friend? What if both the personal homosexuality and unrequited nature of that crush, were avoided by the promise of becoming a woman, and therefore a possible romantic partner of the afore mentioned crush?

       The friend – unwittingly supporting that notion by his support of a female gender identity – and all the transitional changes made, but whose heterosexual orientation meant that despite it all – he was not ever going to be an intimate relationship option.

       It was quite devastating to watch. A good friend of mine, related his long-time crush on his best friend as the catalyst for realising his sexual orientation. I wonder how the young gay men in similar situations are doing now.

       Some of the vitriol displayed at events might come from the realisation of the failure to deliver on the unspoken promises of full recognition alluded to in public policy and legislation, and what is experienced at individual personal level.
7. Anker 7

   16 November 2022 at 10:38 am

   • Thanks Molly. Your question “why women should make space for these people” is bang on. I am afraid I could only watch so much of the (exhibitionist, likely autogynophile) person waving their breast around.
   • Molly 7.1

     16 November 2022 at 10:55 am

     I'm probably a bit jaded, but the antics of the AGP struck me as someone particularly unskilled in the handling of breasts in a sexually stimulating way. I figure, at least he inflicts that lack of expertise only on himself and not anybody else.

     He is in multiple videos of the day and the reality is – his behaviour never gets any better.
     • Visubversa 7.1.1

       16 November 2022 at 1:16 pm

       Often used as an excuse for bad behaviour. And just the sort of person you want in a woman's prison.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/130471744/restaurant-triple-stabber-jailed-for-nine-years-and-three-months
       • Molly 7.1.1.1

         16 November 2022 at 1:40 pm

         Yes. Saw that and despaired:

         "Nelson’s counsel, Glenn Dixon, said his client, a transgender woman, had been in Spring Hill Prison but was now incarcerated in Auckland Women’s Prison. There, she felt safer and was motivated to engage in drug and alcohol rehabilitative programmes, as well as a business and creativity course.

         Prior to the restaurant incident, Nelson had been arrested on other charges as well as a subsequent breach of bail. She had been evicted from her bail address, and had soon afterwards made the decision to go to the restaurant, where the assaults happened."
         • weka 7.1.1.1.1

           16 November 2022 at 1:50 pm

           I'm sure they do feel safer. Sorry women.

           Prior to the restaurant incident, Nelson had been arrested on other charges as well as a subsequent breach of bail. She had been evicted from her bail address, and had soon afterwards made the decision to go to the restaurant, where the assaults happened.

           Nelson was “an extraordinarily complex person, one of the most complex that this counsel has experienced”, Dixon said.

           We really need a specialised unit for trans people.

           Relieved to see Stuff reporting on the gender transition so it's clear they are male.

           As the court was told, she now prefers to go by the name Pandora Electra

           Of course.
           • Anker 7.1.1.1.1.1

             16 November 2022 at 4:37 pm

             Wake up people on the left. The gender ideology movement is not progressive at all. It's harming women and its prioritizing men like Nelson over vulnerable women prisoners.
           • Visubversa 7.1.1.1.1.2

             16 November 2022 at 5:01 pm

             "Very complex" may be an understatement. There is a high incident of co-morbidity with other psychological conditions among today's self identified male trans people. The trans identified men in British prisons are far more likely (over 40%) to be there for sex related offences than the rest of the male prison population.

             It is not just men in women's prisons and other spaces – it is the worst kind of men in women's spaces.
             • weka …

               16 November 2022 at 5:31 pm

               it's also possible that societal factors like transphobia, homophobia, and sanctions against effeminate behaviour in men may mean it's more likely that trans women and TIMs end up doing sex work. In the same way that we see sexual abuse and poverty makes it more likely for women to end up doing sex work.

               I'd also like to know how that plays out with AGP men and violence. Pity No Debate means we won't be getting much good research for a while.

               My thesis here is that patriarchal conditioning and conditions create violence in TIMs like it does with other men. Different dynamics.

               As Molly said, why aren't men making male spaces safer?
               • Sabine …

                 16 November 2022 at 10:04 pm

                 Because these people do not want to be safe in male spaces or third spaces. They want to be in womens spaces, as women.

                 Male spaces and bathrooms are no more and no less dangerous for transpeople then female spaces. I mean self ID opens the door to all men, at all times, to all female spaces and thus the same men that were feared by transpeople in the male spaces will now have access to them in the female spaces. Its bs. They want access to female spaces because they want to be women, and they can only be fully women if they get to play the full game, women sports, women awards, women jobs, women rape counseling, women breastfeeding, woman everything, nothing less will do. Ditto for Transmen, they want to be men. And the rest of the population has to go along with it by hook or by crook.

                 But a few people will profit of this regressive misery covered in kindness, it will set women – adult human female – set back into the 1700 and further back even – removed from public record and medical texts, denial of the labour of their body, and it for sure will teach women – human born female of all ages – their place in society.

                 Don't you think that our future as the large gamete producers is bright and rosy?
       • millsy 7.1.1.2

         16 November 2022 at 6:11 pm

         So you think that Nelson should go to a men's prison and possibly be raped or attacked?

         Not defending them, but our prisons are fucked enough without transgender prisoners getting attacked and raped.
         • Molly 7.1.1.2.1

           16 November 2022 at 6:33 pm

           Any prisoner going into a men's prison could possibly be raped or attacked.

           How do you justify ignoring the other vulnerable males in your expression of care?

           The women's prison estate is for women, and should remain sex-segregated.
         • weka 7.1.1.2.2

           16 November 2022 at 7:03 pm

           So you think that Nelson should go to a women's prison and possibly stab or otherwise assault women?

           The solution is to set up a special prison unit for trans prisoners. .
           • millsy 7.1.1.2.2.1

             16 November 2022 at 8:00 pm

             I would agree with you on a special trans/LGBT unit. I belive that Rikers Island in NYC had one from 1975-2005, but was closed down.
             • Molly …

               16 November 2022 at 8:30 pm

               Posted a few times on the K6G unit in LA County, but you must've missed them:

               https://thestandard.org.nz/search/K6G/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

               AFAIK, still going.

               https://www.kcet.org/shows/socal-connected/clip/life-behind-bars-for-gbt-inmates-at-the-k6g
         • Sabine 7.1.1.2.3

           16 November 2022 at 10:12 pm

           If you think that the prisons in NZ are so dangeorus you should voice your concern with the MP who looks after Corrections. It is up to government to regulate and then assure the safety of all prisoners who are held in the care of government.

           Incarcerated women are not body shields.

           How many women would need to get harmed in prison by men – who may or may not be transwomen – for you to consider the safety of women?
           • millsy 7.1.1.2.3.1

             16 November 2022 at 10:46 pm

             "If you think that the prisons in NZ are so dangeorus you should voice your concern with the MP who looks after Corrections."

             I dont think the government gives a shit about the safety of our prisoners, regardless of biological sex, gender identity or sexual orientation. For the past 20-30 years, both parties have imported US penal policies into this country, which is bascially stick prisoners in a cage and watch while they tear each other apart. This is largely due to the lobbying of the likes of Garth McVicar and Norm Withers, both of whom actively condone the rape and shanking of weaker prisoners by the strong ones as that is part of the 'punishment' factor of prisons.
             • Sabine …

               16 November 2022 at 10:56 pm

               And yet you like the government seem to have no fuck to give about safety of women in prisons.

               Men – irrespective of their self identification should never be locked up in prison with women. And to do so, is to show that absolutly no regards for the wellbeing and the safety – from rape and pregnancy – of the women is given. But then maybe the rape of a woman – human born female – is acceptable to some on the left in order to protect a male from male violence that seems to be state sanctioned and / or permitted.
             • Molly …

               17 November 2022 at 6:32 am

               And when the foreseeable happens – it warrants only brief article:

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112432880/transgender-prisoner-investigated-for-sexual-assault-behind-bars

               A transgender inmate at Christchurch Women's Prison is being held in isolation while facing several allegations from fellow inmates, including one of sexual assault.

               Below is the prisoner you are insisting on placing with females with nowhere to run:

               https://reduxx.info/nz-trans-identified-male-sent-to-womens-prison-after-stabbing-spree/

               Nelson quickly targeted another worker, a female who was later revealed to be Nelson’s ex-girlfriend. He slashed her in the face and stabbed her in the upper back, causing her to suffer a punctured lung. Despite her horrific injuries, the woman managed to run out of the building and flee for help at a nearby gas station.
   • RedLogix 7.2

     16 November 2022 at 11:02 am

     Might make you think that Putin has a point.
     • millsy 7.2.1

       16 November 2022 at 11:35 am

       I note that Putin and his supporters now view the war in Ukraine as a war for 'traditional values' against 'western decadance' (LGBTQ) with some pro Russian supporters wanting an open alliance between Orthodox Christian, Confucian Chinese and Wahabist Islam in some kind of 'Holy War'.
       • adam 7.2.1.1

         16 November 2022 at 1:22 pm

         Odd as the war in Ukraine is in effect, Orthodox Christians fighting Orthodox Christians.
8. tsmithfield 8

   16 November 2022 at 11:23 am

   It is starting to look like the missile strikes on Poland may have been due to stray Ukrainian air defence missiles, or a Russian missile deflected by air defence.

   So, that part may be an accident.

   What wasn't an accident was oil supplies to both Hungary and Slovakia (NATO members) were cut due to Russia hitting infrastructure in Ukraine that is used for the piping of oil through to those countries. So, perhaps at least an indirect attack on Nato.

   https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hungary-mol-says-oil-shipments-druzhba-pipeline-temporarily-suspended-2022-11-15/

   So, that may end up being a more serious than the missile strikes.
   • millsy 8.1

     16 November 2022 at 11:38 am

     The EU and NATO need to make sure that this doesn't blow up out of hand. As much as I dislike Putin, I don't think it is worth turning Europe into a radioactive wasteland just to get one up on him.
   • Francesca 8.2

     17 November 2022 at 7:59 am

     What a difference a day makes

     Hungarian/Slovakian supplies have resumed

     https://www.upstreamonline.com/production/ukraine-oil-supplies-to-hungary-and-slovakia-resume-after-missile-strike/2-1-1355360
9. Anne 9

   16 November 2022 at 11:26 am

   Grateful for your regular updates tsmithfield. Saves me a lot of reading. 😉
   • tsmithfield 9.1

     16 November 2022 at 3:27 pm

     Thanks, I wish there wasn't a need to do that.
10. arkie 10

    16 November 2022 at 11:52 am

    Time to make a submission on the proposal on restricting agricultural emissions is running out. This is an opportunity to make sure we as a country do what is necessary to meet our international obligations as well as incentivising more environmentally friendly agricultural practices which will benefit us all:

    Submissions close this Friday 18 November and the Green Party has put together a submission guide with background information and key points to make it easy for you to have your say.

    We have the opportunity to become the first country in the world to tackle agricultural emissions at the source, but we need to push the Government to act, and not cave to agribusiness.

    Right now, every submission counts.

    Your submission can be as detailed or simple as you have time for.

    https://action.greens.org.nz/submission_guide_he_waka_eke_noa

    The BAU TINA agribusinesses will be making submissions, we can outnumber theirs and send a message that will strengthen the Governments resolve. Nature, and the future, need us to advocate for them.
11. observer 11

    16 November 2022 at 1:53 pm

    Latest on Luxon contortions, from Thomas Coughlan at NZME.

    The old political adage applies: it is better to be criticised than mocked. Once you've become a figure of fun, you've lost.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/christopher-luxon-u-turns-on-u-turn-acknowledging-he-misspoke/G4LEMNH2MNHV7M2VAR453Z4NRE/

    National later U-turned on that remark, clarifying that Luxon misspoke and had not intended to U-turn on that particular policy. He was in fact talking about the clean car standard, an emissions standard for vehicle importers.

    National opposed that policy too, meaning Luxon has still U-turned on a policy today – just not the policy he said he was U-turning on.
    • Incognito 11.1

      16 November 2022 at 2:03 pm

      He’s doing doughnuts
      • observer 11.1.1

        16 November 2022 at 2:23 pm

        He just got squashed in the House by Grant Robertson.

        Time for Split Enz … "Nobody takes me seriously anyway".
        • Incognito 11.1.1.1

          16 November 2022 at 2:28 pm

          This one: https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=229653?
          • newsense 11.1.1.1.1

            16 November 2022 at 6:17 pm

            Not a performance of a leader who is confident of wandering far from his script at all. Not a word or an aside that wasn’t scripted. Also shows his handlers lack of confidence.
      • AB 11.1.2

        16 November 2022 at 5:22 pm

        Shouldn't that be "delivering doughnuts"?
        • Incognito 11.1.2.1

          16 November 2022 at 5:31 pm

          This the problem when doing doughnuts: you never deliver anything except for noise, hot air, and an acrid smell.
          • gsays 11.1.2.1.1

            16 November 2022 at 7:29 pm

            I'm gonna *555 Luxon.

            Sustained loss of traction is against the law.
            • Incognito 11.1.2.1.1.1

              16 November 2022 at 8:46 pm

              Confiscate his car and then crush it! I know just the right person for this and she’d love it
12. Ad 12

    16 November 2022 at 3:45 pm

    Donald Trump announces he is running for President of the United States again.

    Former Republican President Donald Trump says he's launching another White House bid | CNN Politics

    What could go wrong?
    • millsy 12.1

      16 November 2022 at 3:51 pm

      The most racist, homophobic, transphobic, mysoginost, religious fundamentalist, anti abortion, anti union, anti welfare president in US history. The guy must be stopped. At all costs.
      • Andy 12.1.1

        16 November 2022 at 4:02 pm

        LOL I think most of those labels are way off. Religious fundamentalist he certainly isn't.

        Didn't he let Caitlyn Jenner use the girl's restrooms in Trump Towers?
        • millsy 12.1.1.1

          16 November 2022 at 4:10 pm

          Caitlyn Jenner is trying to be 'one of the good ones', so she doesn't count.
        • AB 12.1.1.2

          16 November 2022 at 5:30 pm

          Religious fundamentalist he certainly isn't

          Agree with that – an authoritarian narcissist who periodically and unconvincingly pretends to be a religious fundamentalist, because it's politically expedient to do so.

          Luxon is an interesting counterpoint to that – someone who is a religious fundamentalist but pretends not to be, because it's politically expedient to do so.

          Says something about the two different political cultures I guess.
    • Incognito 12.2

      16 November 2022 at 3:56 pm

      What could go wrong?

      He could be suspended from Twitter for impersonating a sane person.
    • Macro 12.3

      16 November 2022 at 4:44 pm

      What a loser!

      Mostly an attempt to delay the inevitable indictments coming his way. The Jan 6 committee will have to speed up their final report and recommendations with the House going GoP next year, but even some Repugnants possess principles. DoJ indictment still in the offing (even if a candidate) wrt mishandling of secret files.

      Dems could run a puppy dog against him and win – he still doesn't understand that he is not as popular with the majority as he thinks he is – only the deluded.
    • Peter 12.4

      16 November 2022 at 9:14 pm

      This is one of the most insane, grotesque political scenes imaginable.

      There are many versions of the occasion. This unedited, raw, all-over-the-shop long version puts the simple photo-op still moments into context.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQCHvK_pB7U
13. Jenny are we there yet 13

    16 November 2022 at 5:12 pm

    This is not how change happens. Never has been. Never will be.

    With disagreement even over the conference cover statement, 'Carried to Hell in a Handcart', might be a more efficient mode of transport to take us to the apocalypse than this *shemozzle.

    Climate negotiations are in disarray as COP27 enters its second week

    Talks in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, are running well behind schedule, with discussions on key areas such as loss and damage at a political impasse

    This article has been viewed 247 times in the last 3 hours.

    15 November 2022

    …..behind-the-scenes negotiations are in disarray, with talks running well behind schedule….

    ……talks on the cover text – a political agreement traditionally struck at the end of a UN climate conference – are still in the very early stages.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2346927-climate-negotiations-are-in-disarray-as-cop27-enters-its-second-week/?

    *(even the dictionary gets it)
14. Barfly 14

    16 November 2022 at 5:14 pm

    Starting to look like the missile(s) that hit Poland may have been Ukrainian S300(s) (they have a lot that are past their use by date)
15. X Socialist 15

    16 November 2022 at 5:39 pm

    Tory Whanau may be in trouble with the Greens. According to HDA, all the best jobs in council have gone to her mates. I don't know whether that's true, but nepotism is a Maori speciality.

    Quote: from paywalled article:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/a-capital-letter-wellington-mayor-will-not-renew-green-party-membership/6QL5E56C4BG5ZM3N3R77GL4V

    OPINION

    ''Wellington mayor Tory Whanau, whose independent campaign was endorsed by the Greens, has decided she will not renew her party membership, the Herald understands.

    The key reason behind the move is so she can work more productively with councillors without a formal tie to a political party – but it could also ruffle feathers among those in the Green Party who helped her win the election.

    Whanau has now spent almost six weeks in the city’s top job after she romped home with a convincing majority of 17,751 votes over the incumbent.

    It was clear Whanau had a sense of which way the tide was turning a couple of weeks before election day, but such a strong majority certainly came as a surprise.

    On the campaign trail, Whanau pitched herself as someone who could cross the political spectrum and bring people together. She pointed to her experience negotiating with New Zealand First when she was the Green Party’s chief of staff as an example of this.

    Green Party councillor Laurie Foon is the deputy mayor, while two Labour councillors and one Green councillor will chair the council’s three big committees.

    First-term Motukairangi Eastern Ward councillor Tim Brown told Newstalk ZB Wellington Mornings host Nick Mills he felt “slightly disconcerted” about the appointments.

    It’s because they share her [Whanau’s] views, which I think is a good reason on her part, but of course means that the independent candidates sitting around the table are looking at the equation and thinking well if we don’t share her views, we’re going to be excluded.”

    [Take a month off. You don’t seem to know what nepotism is and you simply indulged in baseless Māori bashing – Incognito]
    • Muttonbird 15.1

      16 November 2022 at 5:47 pm

      Nepotism is a Maori speciality.

      Nice knowing you.
      • X Socialist 15.1.1

        16 November 2022 at 5:56 pm

        It's common. Many problems of Maori v Maori rotates around people being appointed to some position, but other Maori saying they shouldn't be appointed because they belong to the wrong tribe, or have the wrong whakapapa. I said at the time, Auckland and Wellington councils would encounter problems.

        You need to add more than your trite uncalled for comment.
        • Muttonbird 15.1.1.1

          16 November 2022 at 6:01 pm

          I'd stop digging if I were you.
    • newsense 15.2

      16 November 2022 at 6:02 pm

      How is Mark Mitchell? What else has he been up to? Is he backing Nicola Willis for leader or is he going himself? He didn’t say on the radio but I figured you’d know.
      • millsy 15.2.1

        16 November 2022 at 8:04 pm

        Mark Mitchell would be most worrying as National Partty leader. The guy would, in the words of Trotter, liberate the police, and police the liberals.

        His desire to bring about US-style policing is well documented. I would imagine that Maori would be gunned down left right and centre by cops if he is allowed anywhere near cabiney.
        • Incognito 15.2.1.1

          16 November 2022 at 8:56 pm

          You don’t give Kiwi cops much credit, do you? I’m pretty sure that for that to happen you’d need US cops with a US mind-set in a US context here in Aotearoa – New Zealand.
        • Sacha 15.2.1.2

          16 November 2022 at 8:57 pm

          in the words of Trotter

          That's your problem, right there
    • Incognito 15.3

      16 November 2022 at 6:07 pm

      Mod note
      • Sacha 15.3.1

        16 November 2022 at 6:21 pm

        thank you
      • Louis 15.3.2

        16 November 2022 at 6:35 pm

        Thank you.
16. newsense 16

    16 November 2022 at 6:00 pm

    Waiting for a post: Luxon: Chicken Little or an Egg? on the clean car fleet. Polluters must meet their costs or we are paying them to do so. We’re picking up fossil awards while our neighbors in and outside NZ are seeing their property below water. The clean car work is not nearly enough, but it’s a basic step. Polluters must pay.
17. mosa 17

    16 November 2022 at 6:42 pm

    Which is it Micky?

    You mean Greg alwyn.

    What's happened to LINO's commitment to health outcomes like dental.

    " Yesterday the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists released a report on dental care in Aotearoa, highlighting its unaffordability and recommending free, universal dental care. This is something the left has been campaigning for for a long time – Jim Anderton pushed for it before the 2011 election, and Helen Clark has advocated for it. It would massively improve people's lives, reduce pain and suffering, and save money in the long-term. But it would involve spending money, so naturally Grant Robertson has vetoed it "

    " Instead of free and universal provision, he wants people to go crawling to WINZ, with all the added pain and suffering that entails. Weirdly, he thinks that this isn't a deterrent – which I guess tells us either that he has never dealt with them, or that nine years on an MP's salary and six on a deputy prime minister's has destroyed all memory of it (and WINZ has got massively worse since Grant was a student) "

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2022/11/grant-says-no-again.html

    A windfall tax could pay for this and more.

    He said he did not think the fact the grants had to be applied for through Work and Income would deter people from applying for them.

    "For low-income people, I'm sure the opportunity to be able to get the support for [dental care] is something that they will take up."

    That sounds like someone who is totally out of touch.

    I detest the National party but before you have a crack at them Greg what about your Labour party and their failures to their own people they solicit votes from then look the other way.

    Now back to the RMA and Nationals policy failure's.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • Incognito 17.1

      16 November 2022 at 6:47 pm

      If you cannot stay on-topic then take it to OM, or TDB.
18. mosa 18

    16 November 2022 at 6:56 pm

    " Yesterday the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists released a report on dental care in Aotearoa, highlighting its unaffordability and recommending free, universal dental care. This is something the left has been campaigning for for a long time – Jim Anderton pushed for it before the 2011 election, and Helen Clark has advocated for it. It would massively improve people's lives, reduce pain and suffering, and save money in the long-term. But it would involve spending money, so naturally Grant Robertson has vetoed it:

    "

    year in extra funding and any additional investment needed to be weighed against other priorities in the health sector.

    Instead of free and universal provision, he wants people to go crawling to WINZ, with all the added pain and suffering that entails. Weirdly, he thinks that this isn't a deterrent – which I guess tells us either that he has never dealt with them, or that nine years on an MP's salary and six on a deputy prime minister's has destroyed all memory of it (and WINZ has got massively worse since Grant was a student).

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2022/11/grant-says-no-again.html

    " "Going straight to universal dental care right away would be well over a billion dollars a year of extra funding, we have to weigh that up against the other things that are needed in the health system."

    And Grant has ruled out a windfall tax that could pay for universal care and much more.

    National is not in government but Grant and Jacinda are !

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    

    [looks like you’re also insisting on being modded for diversion trolling. This is your warning – Incognito]
    • Incognito 18.1

      16 November 2022 at 7:00 pm

      Mod note
      • mosa 18.1.1

        16 November 2022 at 7:06 pm

        I have never trolled in my life and you can check on my history with posting on here.

        I know its uncomfortable when you are presented with the facts behind the spin of the current government but it is the facts.

        National are terrible but we expect that. Labour are supposed to care for the poor.

        They don't.

        I will continue to call them out even if the people here can’t see it.

        Open and transparent government was promised wasn’t it ?
        • Incognito 18.1.1.1

          16 November 2022 at 9:26 pm

          There’s a first for everything. If you continue the efforts of a notorious diversion troll who had been warned and modded then, for all intents and purposes, I consider you also a diversion troll and will treat you as such.

          You are free to say what you feel you have to say but you don’t have carte blanche to say it wherever (and however) you feel like here. You may also want to tone down on the personal snides when you ‘call out Labour’.
          • mosa 18.1.1.1.1

            16 November 2022 at 11:27 pm

            " You are free to say what you feel you have to say but you don’t have carte blanche to say it wherever (and however) you feel like here "

            No you have that power Incognito by the way you and others decide what is acceptable on this site.

            Its called freedom of expression which the government has not banned yet and I am not talking about anything illegal or malicious but the Standard has just has to look at the growing list of people driven out by being banned because they said something the moderators disagreed with.

            The TDB has a number of contributors who are on topic and and aren't afraid to call the National party out while also revealing the increasing poverty and hardship still being experienced under Labour and their fiddling with statistics.

            Personal snides ? you mean the attack on Chris Trotter on this site ?

            I take it then that's acceptable if its one of your main contributors , or Lyn's

            put down's against some of the correspondents who contribute here.

            I rest my case.
            • Incognito 18.1.1.1.1.1

              17 November 2022 at 8:47 am

              Seriously?? Are you oblivious or obtuse?

              Addressing and correcting the very many points in your comment feels like cleaning the Augean stables. Suffice to say, as long as one adheres to this site’s Policy and takes heed of Moderator notes one can enjoy the generous freedom of commenting on TS to their heart’s content.

              I hope this will help and I also hope you don’t draw unnecessary attention to yourself.

              Have a nice day.
    • Molly 18.2

      16 November 2022 at 9:57 pm

      Good dental health, has such a positive effect on other health issues.

      And the dental care offered by the school system is much less consistent or frequent than it was back in the 70s when every primary school had it's own dental clinic and nurse.

      It would have been a good preventative health measure, and the cost of dental care is high or unaffordable for those with few discretionary funds.
      • Belladonna 18.2.1

        16 November 2022 at 10:27 pm

        Yes. I think it's the cost factor which has just driven it up out of reach of many middle-class (let alone working-class) kiwis.

        I don't know what the answer is to this. Some of it is the bells-and-whistles (x-rays, etc.), which may improve the dental care – but all the equipment costs an arm-and-a-leg and has to be amortized across all of the patients. Some of it is the high cost of training, and then of staffing and operating dental surgeries.

        https://www.nsoms.co.nz/dental-costs-in-new-zealand-why-is-it-so-expensive/

        I'd like to see a very low-cost, basic dental care option. Fillings (quick and cheap), extraction (if necessary), cleaning & scaling [which always sounds painful]. And conversations with the dentist which include what you can afford – rather than starting out with 'you need 5 crowns, at 1.5 K each'

        I know that school dental care was massively backed up before Covid (my son missed the last 3 annual checkups at his school – because they simply prioritized kids who they felt were more likely to have issues). And, of course, virtually no preventive dental work was done over the last 2 years with Covid. Now the dental checks have started up again, but they are so far behind, I don't think they have any hope of catching up – and are suffering from the same staffing shortages that every other aspect of medicine is coping with.

        And, if your kid needs braces (not just cosmetic, if there are misaligned or overlapping teeth, without straightening you're in for a life of heightened risk of dental decay) – you're talking 7K plus (which is completely out of reach of many families).
19. Anker 19

    16 November 2022 at 9:29 pm

    Good on you Mosa

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