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Open mike 16/01/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:46 am, January 16th, 2015 - 349 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeThe Authors of The Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm.

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

349 comments on “Open mike 16/01/2015 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    This weather the past few weeks has been rather nice, but it is hardly abnormal. It is summer, after all. So are we almost in a drought crisis, or have we just made to many dairy farms in the wrong places?


    I notice none of the “traditional” dairy regions like Waikato or Southland are in a crisis.

    It is crazy how the impact of man on the environment – in this case, unsuitable forms of farming for the climate – are not reported as the results of human folly, but rather as victims of unforseen weather events… unforseen events as in “summer”.

    • Paul 1.1

      Interesting point.
      If people weren’t pumping the aquifers dry in Canterbury to create dairy farms there, would the situation be ok?

    • JanM 1.2

      It’s a circus, isn’t it! There are a number of places in NZ that have always looked like that (the photo in the news item) in summer and no-one would dream of being silly enough to put dairy cows on them, poor things, and poor farmers too, who have been kidded into trying to beat nature to this extent and in some cases are facing financial ruin. As we are aware there are a record number of farmer suicides at the moment and it’s no wonder. Does there need to be some better legislation to control this idiocy?

      • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1

        Does there need to be some better legislation to control this idiocy?

        Yes, there does.

        More environmental protections to ensure sustainability and actual regulations on what can be farmed where so that we don’t end up with farms in unsuitable places.

        • gsays

          how about legislation that covers animal cruelty?
          not providing shade for animals ranks right up there.
          the notion that everyone does it does not wash with me.

          where is the spca on this?
          or are they happy with keeping kittens breeding and going the occassional idiot and their aggressive dog?

          • tc

            Farmers on the whole are not the issue, livestock is their livelihood and they respect that and look after them.

            I’ve seen more cruelty with clueless lifestylers leaving animals alone as if they look after themselves thinking any grass is food and don’t provide enough water.

    • tc 1.3

      Yup typical spin to position farmers for yet more handouts because they can’t manage inherent cycles in places known to be arid.

      It’s been a perfect season so far talking to farmers, hay is still being made with 2 cycles on the same pasture in some cases as the growth has been ideal.

      Summer only really started a few weeks ago and tank levels look good with rain through November so what were they expecting, regular rain through summer FFS.

      Dryness is more due to persistent winds now regardless of rain, not helped by clear felling and deforestation for a few more dairy cows.

      • millsy 1.3.1

        I personally know a farmer who doesnt seem to have this problem.

        From the looks of it, he accepts that being in farming is going to mean having to deal with these sorts of conditions and makes the appropriate preparation (such as stock piling food, etc) so impact is minimal. As opposed to going down to the pub and whinging about those on benefits.

        • tc

          Yes we just had 2 droughts, the last being worse than the one before, thus the aggressive haymaking and I’m seeing every piece of turf available being cut and bailed/wrapped now, some for a second time in 3 months.

          It’s called summer and when you generate a livelihood from the land and seasons you need a robust and flexible approach so these whingers need to take a concrete pill and harden the F up or step aside for those who can manage.

      • b waghorn 1.3.2

        @ tc what hand outs as far as I know drought relief consists of paying less or deferring provisional tax payments because there earnings will be less than the previous year .

    • Rosie 1.4

      And the Central Plains Water scheme surely must be the grandest human folly of them all. Plans to intensify dairying in one of NZ’s driest(and not to mention windy) areas. Genius.

      Last night it was mentioned on the news that one area of Canterbury had not received rain since August.
      A friend of mine, who grew up on a dairy farm in Northland, moved to Canterbury ten years ago, and lives out past Darfield.
      She told me in early December that the river across the road where they take the kids every day in summer, had already reduced to a trickle and the rocks were covered in algae.

      She can’t work out why there are dairy farms in Canterbury.

      • millsy 1.4.1

        In the USSR’s central Asian republics, someone had the bright idea of tapping a huge inland sea to irrigate cotton farms.

        About 35 years on, this sea has pretty much drained dry the water that is left are slushy muddy pools, and we have fishing boats beached up in the middle of the desert.

        This is what will happen to our rivers if we keep pushing on with irrigation (on the scale that people want it to be — I am not opposed to irrigation schemes. I am opposed to profiteers draining our rivers.

    • aj 1.5

      Without intensive irrigation dairying would be in crisis with just average rainfalls outside the ‘traditional’ areas.

      • Paul 1.5.1

        Therefore unsustainable.

        • JanM

          Exactly – does anyone know just who was behind the move to develop this unsustainable farming – the government, businesses, or gross stupidity/greed on the part of some individuals?

          • Rosie

            Big question Jan M. Someone else can answer that, but all three suggestions seem feasible.

            As for Central Plains Water, that was formed back in the early 2000’s when Labour were still in government. But we know this government has backers in the scheme:

            http://www.cpwl.co.nz/scheme-development – origins

            and Amy Adams’ role in CPW


          • Sans Cle

            Single out banks in that classification of ‘business’.
            They lend to farmers, based on expected future profits.
            They lock farmers into the ‘institution’ of a mortgage, where farmers are bound to service that debt, and put under pressure to do so.
            Banks are making super profits on the back of NZ dairying.
            Tax-payers are left to subsidise the infrastructure and reinvest in the green infrastructure (clean up streams, maintain/enhance waterways, and clean up harbours where all the run-off from the land ultimately ends…..the seas are still treated as a waste ground, beyond our environmental pastoral boundaries).

            Dairying is boom and bust. Farming in general is more reliable, as we need food, and the world needs food.

            • Colonial Rawshark

              And that is why the NZ Government came up with its own less predatory financing for farmers, an institution which eventually became known as the Rural Bank.

        • Karen

          Absolutely unsustainable to have dairy farms that are so dependent on irrigation. Dairy farms require huge amounts of water – that is why dairy farming flourished in the Waikato where there is high rainfall, and wheat was grown in Canterbury where they have hot, dry summers. Irrigation schemes to support dairy farming in Canterbury will destroy the rivers.

          Luckily for the Hawkes Bay the fall in dairy prices will probably put paid to Ruataniwha Dam proposal.

          • scotty

            “Lucky for Hawkes bay the fall in dairy prices will probably put paid to Ruataniwha dam proposal”

            I wouldn’t bank on it – Key and Joyce are just as likely to use the current drought and poor dairy prices as reason to fast track irrigation proposals .

        • Colonial Rawshark

          It’s why many of these areas once used to be much less water intensive sheep and beef farms. Before man came along and decided that he could change the nature of the land. Until he found out that he couldn’t.

          • Paul

            Have you read Derrick Jensen’s Endgame?

            • Colonial Rawshark

              I have not, but I know of the book, and have listened to a number of the interviews that Derrick has given. Really must get around to it some time.

    • Jenny Kirk 1.6

      100% Sanctuary and other posters here on farming/drought/summertime.

      We in the north-east of the North Island are having a great summer – fine, sunny days and little wind. Just like it used to be in the good ole days (before El Nino etc etc). And the farming land looks good too – green grass, healthily growing feed crops of maize, haymaking. This is dairying country. Just the place for it – lots of rain at the right times, lush pasture. And no need for expensive irrigation schemes draining the water from rivers.

      We had a good lot of rain during November – tanks are full, vege gardens are producing – but we’re expecting it to stay dry thru Jan, Feb, March – maybe even into April . And so we’re prepared for it as it looks to me that the local farmers are also prepared for it.

      As you have all said : its just absolutely nuts to put dairying into areas which are not suited to it. And in years to come we will grieve at the damage caused to those magnificent rivers harnessed for irrigation. Oh, I wish for a bit more forward-thinking on the part of those dairy-obsessed capitalists !

    • Kevin 1.7

      Southland is hardly a traditional Dairy area. I lived there for 23 years and the only time I saw cows was on travels to South Otago.

      Traditionally Southland has been sheep country. The dairy infiltration has been fairly recent.

      Interesting point though: There is a new dairy farm on the outskirts of Gore that has obtained resource consent to take water from the Mataura River. It will use in a day, the same amount of water that the town of Gore uses. Going to be really interesting how that plays out in dry years. And yes, the do get them in Southland.

    • Tracey 1.8

      I feel for the farmers hit by drought who have long established farms. Those who decided to convert to dairy in drought areas such as north otago and north canterbury made a business decision with full knowledge of establishing a business in a drought prone area.

      • phillip ure 1.8.1

        @ tracey..

        ..cd u plse stop telling the lies u told about me in the open debate thread yesterday..

        ..i have never at any time suggested myself starting a legalise marijuana party..

        (as i pointed out to you the last time i corrected u on these lies..there already is one..it’s called the alcp..)

        ..i repeat..this is all totally untrue..

        ,,and cd u plse cease and desist from repeating these lies..

        • tracey

          I apologise. It is an animal welfare party you are thinking of starting when the MMP threshold drops to 3%, a threshold you think will never happen.

          • phillip ure


            ..i think the threshold should be 3%

            ..4% is still too high..

            ..and not so much me ‘starting it’..

            ..i noted that @ 3% an (ostensibly) non-left/right-ideological animal rights party could get some serious traction..and wd be worth investigating..

            ..and that if that happened..the various splinters of the animal rights movement should come together..

            ..to make that happen..

            ..i have never suggested myself as some ‘leader’ riding to the rescue on a white horse..

            ..(who has the time/energy..?..)

            ..and/but that i wd do all i cd to try to make that coming-together happen..

            • b waghorn

              Phil could you work with or support a animal rights party that was OK with people still eating meat and milk .

              • if there were policies i saw advancing the protections for animals..

                ..but a large part of me thinks..why wd u be in an animal rights party..

                ..if u unthinkingly ate animals..?

                ..but i wouldn’t advocate swabs of party-members b4 meetings..to ensure they are ‘clean’..

                ..i guess the two ends of that spectrum are probably me..

                ..and..say..’paws’..who do good work helping dogs..

                ..but do have that singular-species-focus..

                ..(and they probably have bbq’s as fundraisers..and those ironies abound in the ‘green’ movement..

                ..but i think that we cd all agree that we want to spike the vivisection-industry..

                ..to turn the spotlight on the nearly 300,000 animals that are tortured/killed by those sick vivisecting-fucks..

                ..(and these animals are not having the most hideous things done to them to advance the cause of medical science..

                ..much of it is testing fucken products..

                ..and they have this thing where they like to cut those animals open..so they can see their experiments/product-testing results..

                ..these people are seriously sick fucks..

                ..they go to work and/to torture/kill defenceless animals..

                ..now..i reckon ‘paws’-people wd be receptive to that message/demand..

                ..and to ensure the greatest success..say it has to be for reasons of transparency..etc..

                ..and that if medical reasons (sorta) ok..(but not really..)

                ..but i wd think there wd be wide support for those experiments..and the reasons for them..and what they are for..

                ..to be removed from the valley of secrecy where they now reside..

                ..that is one example of where ‘paws’-people and i cd see eye-to-eye..

                ..the abolition of sow-crates/the vilest-excesses of/from factory-farming..

                ..these issues too..

                ..(but i wd be more than likely to put the vegan-case to them..at some stage..)

    • weka 1.9

      “I notice none of the “traditional” dairy regions like Waikato or Southland are in a crisis.”

      Actually Southland is a mix of a partial fire ban and a total fireban currently. That includes places that have been getting rain.



      I agree we are dairy farming in some daft places. But conventional sheep and beef farming creates dought too. The Canterbury plains used to be a forest. It wasn’t dairy farmers that cleared it.

  2. Paul 2

    Paul Craig Roberts is an American economist and a columnist for Creators Syndicate. He served as an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the U.S.


    He has just written this about the events in Paris.


    • North 2.1

      Thanks for the Paul Craig Roberts link Paul. Interesting reading particularly given that the author hails from US Establishment.

      • Paul 2.1.1

        The sections that attracted my attention ( apart from the fact that this guy is from the establishment):

        1. ‘The attack on the cartoonists’ office was a disciplined professional attack of the kind associated with highly trained special forces; yet the suspects who were later corralled and killed seemed bumbling and unprofessional. It is like two different sets of people.’

        2. ‘Another puzzle in the official story that remains unreported… is the alleged suicide of a high ranking member of the French Judicial Police who had an important role in the Charlie Hebdo investigation. For unknown reasons, Helric Fredou, a police official involved in the most important investigation of a lifetime, decided to kill himself in his police office on January 7 or January 8 (both dates are reported in the foreign media) in the middle of the night while writing his report on his investigation.’


        • Colonial Rawshark

          I find Roberts a very interesting and capable character. Once deep inside the establishment, he is now very open to expressing points of view which would otherwise never get aired.

          I have to wonder about the ex-VIP protection squad body guard that was in the Charlie Hebdo meeting room. What was his response. He must have heard the AK47 go off in the building before the intruders entered their offices.

        • Colonial Rawshark

          Roberts speaks on the Alex Jones show (yes, that one) just a couple of days ago.

          From 53 minutes in.


          It’ll be quite clear that Roberts, even though he is a former WSJ editor and “Reaganomics” architect, is not a “right winger” nowadays.

          • Bill

            Yeah, whether he’s left wing or right wing or just plain winging is beside the point. Even the most obvious nutter can offer up nuggets from time to time. And even the most nutty world view has elements of sense in there somewhere.

            I guess I get particularly fucked off when people park critical judgement just because some opinion is coming from somebody who used to enjoy a certain prominence from where they could exercise substantial power or influence.

            Actually, they don’t have to be former holders of positions. I never could understand the deference and uncritical nodding agreement afforded to more or less anything and everything ever said by Thatcher (mad), Reagan (mad), Blair (mad), Bush (mad) the Pope (anachronism), the Queen (anachronism) and her various princes and princesses. Not saying that none of these people ever say or said anything useful mind.

            • Colonial Rawshark

              In the same vein of putting enough monkeys in front of enough type writers…

              • Bill

                Well no, not quite. Monkeys banging on typewriters while we hope that chance produces something sensible is different to people deferring to other peoples’ madness in the hope that their madness will produce something sensible.

          • phillip ure

            is jones the one who believes the queen/royal-family are alien shape-shifting lizards..?

            ..while i admire the robust humour in that claim..

            ..it has to make you wonder..surely..?

    • Bill 2.2

      Oh gawd – the soft brained nutters we seem happy to have given positions of power and privilege to. ffs.

      • Paul 2.2.1

        Attack the messenger.
        Don’t look at the issue.


        • Te Reo Putake

          It’s a big steaming pile of right wing doo doo, Paul. That’s the issue.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            As linked above, Roberts speaks on the Alex Jones show on several topics, including the geopolitical ramifications of the Paris attacks, especially ending any growing sympathism amongst the European public for limiting western military action in the Middle East and Africa.

            • marty mars

              so you think it was a false flag incident?

              I found his commentary in the article to be a bit, “Muslims wouldn’t do this…” as if he had no idea that his understanding comes from a different world and worldview. To be expected really by an ex-establishment minion steeped deeply in his own reality of the world.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                so you think it was a false flag incident?

                Unfortunately in each such incident now, I think the question needs to be at least asked.

                Or it may simply be an act of omission (whether deliberate or through error or incompetence): where txt messages, phone call transcripts, emails and GPS locations etc between the parties show that they were progressing a terrorist plan, but the authorities did nothing about it.

                • Clemgeopin

                  In spite of those points, it seems petty implausible that this was a false flag operation. And another thing I am interested in is the religious affiliation, if any, of Paul Craig Roberts. I wondered if he has become a Muslim himself. I could not get any info on that.

                  From what I have seen and read, my gut instinct is that Roberts is being a sensationalising contrarian climbing on a conspiracy theory.

                  Just my gut instinct based on all the facts so far. But some of the questions he poses (officer’s suicide, the suspect that surrendered etc) do need better answers.

                • I’m thinking we have a false false flag op – and the evidence which shows a false flag actually shows the opposite.

            • Te Reo Putake

              “As linked above, Roberts speaks on the Alex Jones show on several topics …”

              Yep, there’s the confirmation for the steaming pile of right wing doo doo I mentioned. Robert is just another disaffected Republican. Like Jones, still conservative, but able to make a buck by fleecing the deluded in the time honoured tradition of a sucker born every minute.

        • Bill

          Well no Paul. I just can’t be arsed with demeaning conspiracy theories. Without going through all the stuff he omits, such as the interviews with the brothers on French media (Oh – I know – probably wasn’t them…and the old guy in the car with the dog – he’s in on it too….and the print shop owner…and etc)

          Anyway. If the state or any of its agencies are looking to false flag, do they a) concoct some labyrinth scenario with multiple points of potential breakage/failure and umpteen cast members or b) plant a fucking bomb and boom?

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Well, I would say option b) of course.

            Nevertheless, the pollies and security state backers are definitely taking the opportunity to make a lot of political and PR hay out of this.

            • Bill

              the pollies and security state backers are definitely taking the opportunity to make a lot of political and PR hay out of this.

              Of course they are. Just as they did off the back of the Sydney Chocolate stand-off (seems I was in a minority in thinking they’d finally jumped the shark on that one), and as they are about to do over the Belgium raids being reported in ‘the guardian’, and just as they will seek to do at every opportunity that arises.

              edit – just in on me fb account –

              In fact in 2013, it was actually more likely Americans would be killed by a toddler than a terrorist. In that year, three Americans were killed in the Boston Marathon bombing. How many people did toddlers kill in 2013? Five, all by accidentally shooting a gun.


      • The Murphey 2.2.2

        Q. Why the instant dismissal ?

        Q. Are all perspectives and information not valid ?

        Q. How would we know what actually transpired ?

        The ‘hit’ by so called professionals who leave id in the car are then caught as if they were rank amateurs was suspicious from the outset

        • Bill

          Q. Why the instant dismissal ?

          What instant dismissal? I read what he wrote….critically. And so between considering the omission of numerous salient points that would obviously run counter to his claims, and adding in the numerous instances of him drawing a long bow (ie, unsubstantiated assertions) , I reached an informed conclusion.

          • North

            Yeah you read it Bill then you weighed matter not seemingly covered and then you reached an assessment. Next step…….the “informed [by yourself] conclusion” to dismiss. Oh sorry, I missed the powerful empiricism – “…….just can’t be arsed with demeaning conspiracy theories.”

            • Bill

              Well yeah, of course it’s my informed conclusion. That’s the whole fcking point, innit? To form conclusions or opinions based on best available information – weighing it up etc – rather than just accepting whatever’s being said.

              As for empirical – totally different ball games and kettles of fish is thems.

              And yes – I can’t be arsed with conspiracy theories. They’re a waste of fucking time and energy and just. not. very. fucking. intelligent. (ie – demeaning)

    • Murray Rawshark 2.3

      He is not logically consistent. He says:
      (1) People should not believe that Muslims are too stupid to leave an ID at the scene because Muslims carried out the WTC attack, and
      (2) Muslims didn’t carry out the WTC attack.

      • Paul 2.3.1

        I don’t believe the story we were told about 9/11 stacks up.
        I don’t know what actually happened.
        All I’d like is a proper investigation.
        That’s what most people who question the story want.

        9/11 changed so much.
        It should not be shoved under the carpet as trp and the establishment would like.

        • b waghorn

          Osama mates flew a couple of planes into the buildings and they collapsed. I typed slowly so you could get it.

          • Murray Rawshark

            That’s the short version. I accept its accuracy. How they managed to get into the US and A, learn to fly and carry out the attack is something else. What use the Bush regime made of the attack is another story, and how happy they were for it to happen is up for debate.

            But yeah, they collapsed because a couple of planes flew into them. That’s correct in as far as it goes.

            • b waghorn

              About 3 months before JW Jr got elected I was killing wild pines with a 18 yrold American woofer and he was in no doubt that if bush got in america would be at war in 6 months somewhere.

            • b waghorn

              When it comes to the big conspiracy theory’s I just think having enough people involved to make it work and no one breaking ranks and spilling the beans is implausible.

            • gsays

              hi there murray,
              i am keen to know, in your opinion, what made world trade centre tower 7 collapse into its own footprint, in under 11 seconds?

              • McFlock

                And Isaac Newton’s birthday was only a few weeks ago.

                • The Murphey

                  Q. Do you argue against others opinions because you are scared ?

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  And Isaac Newton’s birthday was only a few weeks ago.

                  That’s the exact point. Free fall acceleration, or something quite close to it. Which suggests that the supporting superstructure was no longer capable of providing any significant resistance to gravity.

                  • McFlock

                    Tower 7 was almost 600m (11 second free-fall) tall? Cite pls. Because if it was only 190m tall, free-fall time would have been 6.2 seconds. A little bit over half the actual time taken according to gsays.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Only the first 60% or so of the fall was at free fall acceleration IIRC, then it hit terminal velocity which it stayed at for the remainder of the fall. If you recalculate based on that, I think you’ll come up with something pretty close to 11s.

                    • McFlock

                      Nah, that still doesn’t add up.
                      Important numbers: 11s, 190m, 9.8m/s^2.

                • gsays

                  gday mc flock, murphey and co.
                  sorry i have been away from laptop for a while.
                  (as an aside i feel i am sometimes inadvertantly rude getting involved in these threads and then being absent. kinda seems like snubbing someone. which i want to assure you i am not)
                  firstly happy b’day to mr newton.

                  from where i am coming from..
                  all that i have seen and heard in possibly the most horrific, profound, obscene event in my lifetime, 12/9, i do not believe the official explanation.
                  then adding context..
                  vietnam conflict starting after a false terror event..
                  the u.s. getting involved in ww2 after its fleet got bombed in pearl habour.. (after cracking the japanese communication codes). i dont want to go into the bombing of ngasaki and hiroshima, possibly the most horrific, profound, obscene event in someone elses lifetime.

                  when you simply watch the footage of that third tower coming down, as i am sure you people have, it is so similar to the others, just without the jet full of kerosene. something aint right.

                  when i first watched the footage of the first tower to come down with a friend, his comment was along the lines of “wow, this is like a spielberg production”. this has resonated ever since.

                  add in the pentagon attack, (no evidence of those big turbine engines), etc etc.

                  i dont know what happened, that is why i asked murray what he thought happened.

                  phew! excuse the ebullience.

                  to address some questions that have gone on…
                  i chose 11 secs because from footage i have seen it fell in less than that, and i wanted wriggle room in this line of enquiry f

              • Murray Rawshark

                Nah. Don’t ask questions about something that didn’t happen. There are alt history sites for that sort of thing.

        • George Hendry

          Hi Paul

          Below is a hyperlink found on Aotearoa – A Wider Perspective. One of the many cogent studies on the issue. For heaps more just google ‘9/11 truth’ or something similar. If hyperlink not live, simply copy, and paste into url bar.

          NZ 9/11 truth: See the evidence

          • Paul

            No link provided.
            Have seen several films on the subject.
            Loose Change.

            My conclusion – the official story does not stand up to evidence.
            What really happened – we don’t know.
            Solution – an independent investigation.

            It won’t happen.

  3. I don’t really understand this

    Department of Conservation southern South Island director Allan Munn said camping was permitted more than 500 metres from the Great Walk to Milford Sound but this was not encouraged.

    Fiordland partnerships relationship manager Kate Hebblethwaite said rangers were contending with an increasing number of illegal campers on the three southern Great Walks.

    The 500-metre bylaw existed to accommodate experienced back-country users, including climbers, hunters and fishermen, she said. On the Milford track, the terrain more than 500 metres from the main route was often unsuitable for camping and potentially dangerous.

    So you can camp 500 metres from the track legally, yet this term illegal is used constantly in the article – are they saying that people are camping within that 500m range and are thus illegal?

    Illegal walkers were setting up camp in unsuitable sites, sometimes in fragile ecosystems, and failing to dispose of waste correctly, Hebblethwaite said.

    They were avoiding departmental signs, missing vital track information and hazard warnings, and failing to contribute to track maintenance by avoiding payment.

    “A disproportional amount of DOC staff time is used monitoring their movements, encouraging compliance and cleaning up after them,” she said.

    Last year the department stopped taking bookings solely for the boat from Sandfly Pt, at the track end, unless satisfied a user’s intentions were genuine.

    Seems like the ‘avoiding payment’ is the real issue because DOC workers have to spend time ‘encouraging compliance’.


    • Te Reo Putake 3.1

      I’m with DOC on this, Marty. The problem is people freeloading. They use the tracks and facilities, but don’t want to contribute to the costs associated with maintainance and shelter.

      • weka 3.1.1

        Marty, “Seems like the ‘avoiding payment’ is the real issue because DOC workers have to spend time ‘encouraging compliance’.”

        TRP, “The problem is people freeloading. They use the tracks and facilities, but don’t want to contribute to the costs associated with maintainance and shelter.”

        This is what happens when you prostitute out our conservation estate. The Great Walks are a neoliberal, late 1980s invention where DOC intentionally sought overseas tourist numbers for revenue generation. They went through the inevitable overcrowding, upgrading and subsequent charging systems, but let’s not pretend that this was ever about anything other than trying to get National Parks to pay for themselves.

        Marty, the 500m restriction has been in place for a long time (although I have a feeling it used to be more like 200m). I agree with TRP that the problem is freeloading, but it’s predominantly the overseas tourist market where young people have been sold the dream of clean, green cheap EnZed. They rent a low price mini van that allows them to pay no other accommodation costs while travelling here (hence all the restrictions now on car camping because of the shit left on the side of parking spots). The word gets passed around about how to live cheap or avoid costs.

        But we need to bear in mind that NZ has cultivated this kind of tourism so really needs to take responsiblity for that. There are other ways to do tourism and we didn’t choose them (it’s similar to the dairy argument. Export low price milk powder vs create speciality products that do less damage and bring in more revenue).

        And unfortunately NZers who want to get into the wilderness get shafted, because now we have to police everything and treat everyone as if they are a tourist.

        • greywarshark

          When I was overseas in the 1970s in Europe I noted an attitude amongst USA youth travellers. At the time there was an USA travel book called Fromms travel in Europe on $10 a day. The line travellers used was they tried to make it $10 for the whole trip. There were a number who were really mendacious, would sit at your table and have a drink with friendly, pleasant chat, leave and you’d be told later by the waiter, that they had said you were friends who would pay the bill.
          So dumping poo and pleasing themselves and not being responsible, would be par for many of our travellers. And this is not new. It is well known that people will behave differently away from home, and one’s own family and community.

          The combination of spending much on getting to the country, and trying to conserve money for good times, souveneirs, and problems means that petrol for a van and food are the main concerns and travellers here will try to save on camping and other costs. I think there are guided walks along the tracks, and we should discourage freedom walkers by making sure that if not on a guided walk, that they go in groups with a watchful ranger.

          We must have tight restrictions on those selling drive-yourself vans. And make it easy for them to empty their toilets when necessary, and refresh. Communities can set up special freedom parks with limited facilities and a low charge which pays for a supervisor who visits during the day, to clear the area, and into the night.

          There needs to be better effort from government to ensure a chain of stops throughout the country serving the needs of such travellers. It takes PLANNING, INVESTMENT AND COMMITMENT BY GOVERNMENT. Not just set up a good idea, milk it for cash and let the externalities lie on the ground for others to scrape up! Wow, gosh, when you think about it this actually depreciate the tourist product. Now that is a shit idea isn’t it Mr yek?

          • weka

            The thing that’s new is the numbers in NZ. Small numbers of people travelling cheap or trying to walk the Milford or Routeburn off track isn’t a problem.

            Myself, I don’t think the solution is to try and control the behaviour of people we are encouraging to come here and behave this way. I think the solution is to change how we do tourism.

            The minivans don’t have toilets, that’s one of the reasons why they’re a problem. Once you start putting in things like toilets, the rental price goes up, so the people hiring the minivans are the budget crowd who will skimp all the way. But even with campervans, the numbers are still an issue. The push from the tourism industry is still for more numbers, instead of figuring out that we live within natural limits and how to make a living taking that into account.

            • greywarshark

              @ weka
              I think you nail it. The tourism people have recognised that there is a market for the invidual traveller, sampling the country driving themselves. So we are having more accidents which is natural as the numbers of vehicles go up. Made worse because they are used to driving in a different lane at home.
              Made worse because our country is very hilly and windy. I remember in Switzerland being on a narrow mountain road and meeting someone else – scary. Too tight. Our roads repeat similar experiences far more than in Europe or Australia. China and Japan – I don’t know.

              Government has been asked to prohibit vans without toilets I think. Naturally they have done little, certainly not ensured a satisfactory solution, which would require money and action! That’s not their job. They facilitate private business, and devil take the hindmost. Then there is the problem of emptying the things, having regular stops and perhaps they need to be open at late hours, as the tourist comes into town after a hard days touring. It’s hard work being on holiday. We need to help these guys and gals.

              Lastly we seem to want to encourage any tourism instead of going for those who we can show a good time, and who can afford to spend some money after getting here. As you say Weka we need to change the way we do tourism. And driving around will become more expensive when the petrol prices start following their inevitable trend up. We have to import the petrol, so there is an immediate balancing drain on the input from the tourist dollar.

              Venice was going through a popularity disaster in the 70’s I think. Lots of tours and low income people flooding the place, littering etc. and creating pressure on their services such as the sewer system, but not spending the money that would pay the costs. The city probably settled another inch under their weight and they spread over all the public places.

              In the 80s and 90s here the tourism business was export focussed and the interest was not on the domestic market. Business interests and government’s planning rarely seems to showlong-term rational thought. Applied practical economics too, taking into account cost effectiveness, long term brand retention, overuse syndrome – tourism style, increase of foreign organisms (lack of border controls), overseas criminals – another foreign organism to contend with.

              The multiplier effect needs to be considered at each step to ensure that the whole country receives benefit from tourism and not receives cost from accidents, manhunts, and cleaning up the detritus after the fact. Then there is the smart idea of having a local identification number on GST and reporting annual yields to each area, with a return of say 5% towards needed infrastructure, maintenance and conservation to ensure the tourist $ gets to all the parts not just those that light can reach.

      • Bearded Git 3.1.2

        New Zealanders pay taxes towards the tracks.

        Anybody is permitted by law to camp 500 metres from the track and not pay fees.

        In practice if you camp well away from the track and out of site, but not 500 meters away, that should be all right too. After all this is NZ and there must be some question as to the legality of shutting people out of swathes of our National Parks simply to accommodate Great Walks.

    • RedLogix 3.2

      What else is DoC to do in the face of such intensive use? 500m seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

      Some parts of Europe where the intensities are even higher you aren’t even allowed to step off the track and into ‘the nature’.

      I worked as a hut warden/track maintainer at Lake Howden many, many years ago on the Routeburn. Even then it was going on – and the ones who genuinely wanted to camp well away from a crowded hut were never a problem. The only way you knew about them was if they made an entry in the hut book or they talked to you. It was the ones trying to freeload off the hut and the facilities within a few hundred metres of it who caused extra work and problems.

      • marty mars 3.2.1

        Yep I don’t disagree with you two – and I’ve had direct experience of this too. I just wonder about this legal/illegal aspect – and the powers of DOC to enforce.

        • vto

          I saw that too. They are being naughty in their use of the term “illegal” by claiming such where it doesn’t exist.

        • Te Reo Putake

          DoC are right to call it illegal. It’s covered in the freedom camping Act.

          • weka

            Are you sure? Just had a quick skim through the act and it looks like local authorities can set bylaws, but that doesn’t appear to include DOC.


            • Te Reo Putake

              Sub part 2, clauses 15-19 covers DoC land. It effectively cedes the ability to set the rules to DoC in the same way it allows councils to set bylaws in Part1.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Further to the above, I see that the original draft legislation appears to have had the 500 metres specifically written into one of the sub-clauses. That seems to have been dropped in favour of allowing DoC similar rights to set the rules as per the councils.

                But, the essence of it is that DoC can enforce the 500 metre rule and breaching it is, as they say, illegal.

              • weka

                Thanks. I wonder if that authority predates the 2011 act, and how many NZers are aware that this power was granted to DOC in that piece of legislation.


                I don’t care that much about the Great Walks, but that legislation in general (and how local bodies are enforcing it) is discriminatory towards people with money/assets and against people without.

      • Bearded Git 3.2.2

        +1 redlogix. Agree entirely.

  4. Rumour Willis 4

    Is there any particular reason that TV3 chose BELOVED RIGHT WING COUNCILLOR CAMERON BREWER to offer objective comment on the fact Andrew Little is hiring a press secretary?

    • Karen 4.1

      I didn’t see the TV3 item, but the media coverage of the Labour Party advertising for a press secretary for Andrew Little has all the hallmarks of dirty politics.

      Political party leaders have press secretaries – that is not news. Their job is to get positive coverage in the media – always has been, so that’s not news either. However, in this case, there was a particular spin put on it. The Newstalk ZB headline said Little wanted someone to make him more “likeable” with the implication that currently he was not likeable.

      Now that job advertisement has been around for quite some time. So why was it suddenly picked up by so many media commentators? My guess is an orchestrated campaign by the usual suspects.

      • Tracey 4.1.1

        we knew it would start… they decimated cunliffe through DP (strategy as outlined in the hager book, not name calling in question time as deceitfully framed by some in media and on the right). They won the election, PM is giving his number to Slater, AND publicly apologising to him, so why would they change the strategy

      • greywarshark 4.1.2

        Just someone looking for something political to serve up in the hallowed holiday period I suppose. Making something out of nothing with a swirl of lemon peel and a touch of bitter lemon to leave an aftertaste. And wanting to keep their peckers sharpened no doubt, ready for the competitive fray and then we will soon all feel frayed. That’s the scenario I’m afraid.

      • aj 4.1.3

        “has all the hallmarks of dirty politics”
        Absolutely right. I saw this clip, and it had all the fingerprints we’ve seen over the last 6 years. It was a not-to-thinly veiled hatchet job on Little. The comparison of Facebook likes between Key and Little was done in a especially sneering tone.

    • Skinny 4.2

      They want a negative narrative. Expect Gower to be the one lining Little up, I noticed him giving Andrew a bit of lip at the Nation Xmas gig.

      Little should set the tune for 2015 by scaling back interviews with Gower, O’ Brien as soon as they try any crap on. they will soon play ball.

    • Ffloyd 4.3

      Thank you RW. Was going to comment on that myself. Wondered who the hell CB was? What a diabolical item. So now if anybody at all wants to make derogatory statements about A.L they just need to ring Lisa O and get a slot on her news items. Just say anything you want, say thank you, and go. Great. I’d like to do that about jk. You are not even asked to qualify your statement. Is this a new POPUP app. for all rw’s to use when they want to use attack politics. I thought LO was better than that.
      Also had a look at *shudder* w.o. Yes I have since had a shower. He is deconstructing Andrew Little’s last speech ,frame by frame, and is promoting the Angry Al line. Smacks of desperation and is whipping up his twelve commenters into a frenzy. Everyone very angry about anger. Do they not watch jk, our own artful dodger, in Parliament with the faux frothing.
      wo also has a daily proverb.!!

      • Tracey 4.3.1

        anger unleashes rampant Otherism, apparently… you see it on here sometimes too. We are as hard-wired to be empathetic as we are to favour our “tribe” to the detriment of others… Civilised = not letting anger making you a bastard who will harm those not like you, at any level.

    • mac1 4.4


      Yeah, I’d expect comment, and from the opposition, but Cameron Brewer is not from the media, nor a media academic nor is he involved in national politics.

      So, you’ve got to wonder why he was chosen, or is it more to do with anti-Labour spin doctors using Brewer to spin good news into bad. It’s actually no news since every political leader has a press secretary as a matter of course, and they do need to employ new secretaries from time to time (which was not the focus of the ‘article’).

      My reading is that it’s just a crack at Little using the line that politicians are dishonest creatures who need help to be dishonest.

      There is, of course, the simple human error explanation. The Herald editor told his reporter to contact Cameron for comment on dishonest reportage and spin doctoring, and the reporter got the wrong Cameron.

      • Paul 4.4.1

        2 words.
        Dirty Politics.
        The media is the third track.

      • Neil 4.4.2

        In this TV3 article http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/andrew-little-seeks-new-media-director-2015011415#axzz3OqKTyc5x
        there is over 1100 comments posted, notably the nat supporters are vicious & abusive not only towards Andrew Little but also towards his supporters.
        It seems to be an ongoing theme with nat supporters whether they are commenting on web sites or in real life.

        • Anne

          I’m not surprised Neil. The reality is they are dead worried about Andrew Little. He acquitted himself extremely well late last year and he made a good impression on many people including the less biased end of the MSM.

          The “dirty political’ Nats and their rwnj lackeys have cause to be concerned. We can look forward to a smear campaign that will at least equal that dished out to Clark and Cunliffe in particular.

          My father (bless his departed soul) cautioned me about the Nats when I decided to get involved in politics. I recall him trying to dissuade me because he said they’re nasty people who will destroy anyone who gets in their way. I learnt the hard way just how right he was…

    • Rosie 4.5

      I wondered why on earth Cameron Brewer was interviewed by 3News to obtain his opinion on Little’s seeking of a press secretary. It’s got nothing to do with him, and he has no platform on which he can legitimately comment, apart from being part of the young power seeking right wing Akld crew, whose job it is to destroy the enemy.

      Lol, I remember him from the 90’s when I was working as shop girl in Newmarket and he was a haughty shop boy at a menswear store over the road.

      • Tracey 4.5.1

        oh, you mean Saks??? Cameron Brewer is doing his time at Council, will either tilt at mayor or failing any revival of ACT, get a cushy Nat seat… I cannot imagine how anyone can say the media is NOT biased to the right when they choose him to comment on little’s job offering

        • Karen

          Just remembered something about Cameron Brewer. He is now in partnership with Carrick Graham, a definite link to the Dirty Politics crowd.

          Shame on TV3 for using him – I thought Lisa Owen was better than that.

          • Tracey

            Thanks karen, I had forgotten that. This bit made me really LOL

            “…in the aftermath (note by me:DP claims implicating carrick graham) Prinz chief executive Simone Bell said the national council had decided industry ethics were “robust”.

            “There is no need for change, ” she said.

            Graham is not a member of Prinz and is not subject to its code of ethics

          • Paul

            From the article you mention.

            ‘Graham – who is the son of former Justice minister Sir Douglas Graham – launched a new PR company with his friends Ricardo Simich – the son of former Tamaki MP Clem Simich – and Cameron Brewer.’

            Is this what all sons of Nat MPs do..Dirty Politics?


            and now

            • Tracey

              it does suggest they live a pretty narrow life in terms of the circles they move in. I was at law school with Clem. he was a former Detective turning to law. He was our opponent in my law Moot. Forgot his glasses and so couldn;t read his notes. We all helped him out, a co-operative moot if you will. He was conservative and empathetic, I warmed to him. We didn’t discuss politics and we were not friends.

              How come no one complains about the academics and lawyers riddled throughout the National and ACT parties… I count Wayne Mapp as both.

          • weka

            “I thought Lisa Owen was better than that.”

            Probably not her decision.

          • Rosie

            Boom! There you go. That explains it. Thanks Karen.

            And yes, shame on TV3. It’s as if Dirty Politics never happened.

            • tc

              DP just got a 3 year lease renewal with NACT winning power again.

              Brewer is a nasty piece of work undermining from within and arrogant as he’s never challenged in his local board seat and puts up thank you billboards before the results are even finalised.

        • Rosie

          Lol, I can’t remember which store. Saks sounds about right though, i’ll go with that. He certainly has risen through the ranks and I’m sure we can expect to see him pushing further ahead, as you suggest.
          Do you think he will have a go at Epsom in the future or do you think Rimmer has claimed that turf for the foreseeable?

          • Tracey

            I thought he might go for it at the last election for ACT…

            BUT I suspect he wanted to be sure ACT wouldn’t die first… and that is still known.

            BUT he could join others on the right of National and pull them along…

    • North 4.6

      I saw it and it was hooting farce, Brewer well chosen mind.

      The Leader of the Opposition hiring a press secretary ????

      There’s definitely something rum going on !!!!

      • Ffloyd 4.6.1

        North. Perhaps this is to take attention away from Ian Fletcher’s resignation which has hardly registered on msm.

        • Paul

          Wonder why?

        • North

          Perhaps he’s in for the job…….showing off superb MaxwellSmart capabilities detecting the scarily unusual and forewarning the nation……..the Leader of the Opposition getting a new press secretary for example. Tell me…….is this legal ?

      • Rumour Willis 4.6.2


        “Labour leader Andrew Little today used a napkin to wipe his mouth after lunch at a Wellington eatery.

        “Former ACT leader Richard Prebble, who has nothing to do with either napkins or lunch, had this to say…”

      • JanM 4.6.3

        I firmly believe, however, that if anyone can overcome all this ‘crap’ it will be Andrew Little.
        And if I were them I’d be thinking about the old adage that goes along the lines of ‘make sure the toes you step on today are not attached to the foot that can kick you up the ass tomorrow’

    • Bill 4.7

      Well, when the job advertisement says that the successful applicant should boost fb likes to 40 000 by 2017, what the fuck you expect the media to do – beyond ripping the piss?

      The very wording of the job ad featured in TV3 is a good example of why Labour needs a ‘Director of Media and Communications’

      And btw, RadioNZ was going on the same facile ‘fb like’ angle yesterday, but then, that’s what Labour themselves put out there ffs!

      • Tracey 4.7.1

        :shaking head:

      • Paul 4.7.2

        You voted Tory, didn’t you, Bill?

      • Mainlander 4.7.3

        Couldnt agree more Bill since when did FB likes equate to votes gawd half of Whale Oil is probably over there liking their little hearts out for a giggle, not only that you can buy multiple thousands of likes for a small fee, whoever came up with this gem should be shown the door and pushed hard, any wonder the msm are having a laugh, i thought it was a piss take myself for a while

      • Murray Rawshark 4.7.4

        @ Bill
        It’s just another stumble by them as they remain pretty much directionless. After voting for the “Give the squirrels whatever they want Bill”, they’d be better off buying a 3D printer, whacking out a few vertebrae, and then hiring a surgeon to insert them in a few of the caucus.

    • Anne 4.8

      It was a blatant put up job in an effort to put Andrew Little down.
      Brewer is a weed and a skunk from way back. He looks the part and acts the part. His comment you can’t make a silk purse out of sow’s ears in relation to Little was the voice of an imbecile.

      TV3 are fools. Little will make them eat their words if they continue along this path. He’s astute and very smart.

      • Realblue 4.8.1

        Anne I recall similar statements that Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe will “make them eat their words” and are “astute and smart”. 4th time lucky is a solid strategy I guess.

        • Anne

          I’m not surprised Realblue. Really good of you to point it out. All four are smart people. Just a shame they were targeted by a bunch of dishonest, unscrupulous
          a****holes operating out of the Prime Minister’s Office… and with the present incumbent’s blessing. However, with his knowledge, experience and background they might find Little a much harder nut to crack.

          • Realblue

            Yes, yes “a harder nut to crack” we heard that too. But you stay on message Eh? Politics isn’t for the weak and unprepared.

  5. Daily Quota 5

    “There is no such thing as public opinion. There is only published opinion” ~ Winston Churchill

    • Skinny 5.1

      I wouldn’t be quoting Churchill for too much longer not with the Gallipoli anniversary coming up. He was responsible for a huge number of lost lives from these parts.

        • nadis

          In the context of the times no more shocking than the thousands of other times poison gas was used at that time, or genocides like Turkey over Armenia, or the general carnage of WW1 etc etc.

          Very easy to reinterpret historical figures by todays standards, but very unfair. And I endorse DTB’s view – Churchill clearly the leader needed in WW2.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2

        Yep, absolutely horrible little man and probably still the best person to lead England during WWII. Good job the Brits had the good sense to kick him out of office immediately after the war though.

        • The lost sheep

          “We have become too civilized to grasp the obvious. For the truth is very simple. To survive you often have to fight, and to fight you have to dirty yourself. War is evil, and it is often the lesser evil.”

          George Orwell.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            True. But Orwell would also be the first to say that which war to fight, and who to fight, and what to fight for, is never immediately obvious and very rarely popular.

            • The lost sheep

              Absolutely. Which is why I tend to gloss over moralizing on war from people who have never actually faced it as a concrete reality requiring a concrete choice of action.

              BTW. I would be interested in your answer to my question regarding your proposed solutions on the poverty thread…

      • Harriet 5.1.3


        Wrong war!!!! Churchill had nothing to do with Gallipoli.

        Besides that,

        Now we have Skinny wishing he was the product of rape – with a Japanese naval officer for a father.

        [lprent: I suggest you read some history (try wikipedia) and stop being such an illiterate. Churchill was running the British navy in the first world war, and directly initiated and planned the Gallipoli campaign. ]

        • Draco T Bastard

          Your ignorance is truly appalling.


          Frustrated by the mobility of the Ottoman batteries, which evaded the Allied bombardments and threatened the minesweepers sent to clear the Straits, Churchill began pressuring the naval commander, Admiral Sackville Carden, to increase the fleet’s efforts.[42] Carden drew up fresh plans and on 4 March sent a cable to Churchill, stating that the fleet could expect to arrive in Istanbul within 14 days.

          Churchill was the main driver of the Gallipoli Campaign.

        • Skinny

          Pipe down Harlot and learn your history. Churchill didn’t want our troops to come home to protect against a Japanese invasion. He said something to the effect of “Forget about the colonies we will repopulate them later”. Our troops were rebelling and it was thanks to our own military leader who told the Poms to get lost. We owe the American’s a thanks for saving these shores not Mother England.

          • greywarshark

            Checked out the history which gets pushed to the back after all the years.
            The USA came here because we were too exposed after Japan entered the war. We were anxious, the USA sent two units to Australia but ours took a while to get here. But if Japan had taken us it would have had wonderful bases for submarines in the sounds, the USA had to come, it needed to defend the territory. And they were asked to come by Churchill who had NZ troops in place for his offensive and couldn’t afford to let them go he thought, though some Australian troops had been returned.

            The Pacific is part of the USA sphere of influence on their flanks and Hzawaii was one of their defence posts. When the Japanese bombed it, they had to respond and they were forced into WW2. They also supplied munitions for which they got paid on lend-lease arrangements, so it wasn’t all loss for them.

            At its peak in July 1942, New Zealand had 154,549 men and women under arms (excluding the Home Guard) and by the war’s end a total of 194,000 men and 10,000 women had served in the armed forces at home and overseas.

            Pearl Habour was bombed in 1941.
            At any one time between June 1942 and mid-1944 there were between 15,000 and 45,000 American servicemen in camp in New Zealand.

            Eventually, American formations replaced the New Zealand army units in the Pacific, which released personnel for service with the 2nd Division in Italy, or to cover shortages in the civilian labour-force. New Zealand Air Force squadrons and Navy units contributed to the Allied island-hopping campaign.


        • wyndham

          As 1st. Lord of the Admiralty in 1914 Churchill had everything to do with Gallipolli.


        • North

          A real gutter mouth is Harriet @ 5.1.3 – “Now we have Skinny wishing he was the product of rape – with a Japanese naval officer for a father.”

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Yeah I noticed that. Some chick thinking she’s a larf making rape jokes. Time for the identity politics types to pile in on her, she doesn’t deserve to be let off that just because she’s female.

            • greywarshark

              Do we know she’s a female. That would be a good one. Some tin-can for a head writing here with a female persona. The nut job could be AC or DC.

              • + 1 You’re onto it grey

                • harriet crawled out of the kiwiblog-swamp..

                  ..and wd b one of the worst from there..

                  ..anything vile/uncaring..shes’ sneering all over it..

                  ..i imagine a black-bile dribbling out of her mouth when she speaks..

                  ..i had never thought of her as a bloke..

                  ..but i guess its’ not impossible..

                  ..and yep..she’s as ignorant as a lump of wood..

                  ..her jaw-dropping sneer that churchill had nothing to do with gallipoli..

                  ..being just the latest/current example of that fact..

                  • greywarshark

                    @ phillip ure
                    Your irregular verse? has a strange gothic fascination. Do you think you have started a new genre?

                    • chrs..4 saying that..

                      ..i dunno..

                      ..it’s really just me writing as i speak..

                      ..and throwing away all the rules of sentence/paragraph..etc.

                      ..paying attention to the rythmns/cadences in that..

                      ..and that driving the final form..

                      ..more than anything else..

                      ..and sometimes that all comes together..

                      ..and works quite well..

                      ..but there are many who seem to have virulent reaction to that/such callous disregard of the capital-letter..

                      ..and all who sail in her..

                      ..and i dunno about a new ‘genre’..

                      ..it cd be a future-norm/indication in writing/punctuation..

                      ..i see the capital letter/sentence-structure as archaic/useless as all the swirls and whorls the victorians used to give/cluster around capital-letters..

                      ..that’s not how we talk..

                      ..i am just stripping out the superfluous..

                      ..so if anyone wants to give it a go..

                      ..breathing is important..

                      ..using breath to help recognise the natural (speaking/spoken) rythmns of the words/ideas you are using..

                      ..and give what wd be any new idea/’sentence’..it’s own ‘line’..

                      ..and the subsections of idea..also get their own line..

                      ..you can see what i do with that by comparing the formatting of stories i link to how i re-edit/present the excerpts i use @ whoar..

                      ..my original writing is done the same as that..just with all those capital-letter etc. flourishes absent..

                      ..so..’speaking’ and ‘breathing’ are the two key-words..

        • Paul

          Before coming to such strong opinions, educate yourself.

        • greywarshark

          Hairy-yet = Potty and potty-mouth and know-little. A trifecta.

        • Treetop

          What an awful thing you have written, some people are conceived by rape.

        • b waghorn

          Sometimes I think I’m not clever enough to ad to the standard but you make me feel like a right clever bugger Harriet cheers

        • McFlock

          “Never, in the field of internet debates, has so much wrong been uttered with so much confidence by someone with so much stupidity.” Winston Stumpy Churchill, 23 B.C.

        • adam

          You know the worst part Iprent – any idiot would half a brain would also know Churchill regretted it. Especially the losing, and the role it played in the 20th century’s first genocide.

  6. Philip Ferguson 6

    There’s a good short article by Tony Norfield on the growth of disparity in global pay rates at:

    Again, so much for the trickle down effect.

    Tony recently finished a PhD on British imperialism today, which will hopefully be coming out as a book in the not-too-distant future.


    • Paul 6.1

      Watched an excellent BBC documentary yesterday.

      The Super-Rich and Us

      Looks at UK Inequality.
      The UK is stuffed.


    • Tracey 6.2

      and yt, in 2012 Ruth Richardson was still blaming the “mandarins” for all the ills of society and demanding the “courage” of those in the 80’s and 90’s (she means douglas and herself of course) to drive for more growth, higher growth, the panacea… Self righteously painting herself as knowing the secret that the “lessers” won’t allow to their own detriment… and she sits behind the scenes ideologiphying those on the “hard right” (h/t wayne mapp)

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      The ‘Trickle Down’ effect was always supposed to be a Torrent Up effect. It’s what capitalism does but we’ve been so consistently lied to about it that people think that it will do the opposite.

  7. Rosie 7

    Folks. There is a lot of useful and thoughtful commentary on the increasing levels poverty, and rising inequality in NZ.

    It is largely depressing reading. But what about the visuals? Can you see instances of this around you? Do you experience it yourself? Do you have friends or family who do?

    I have to say, seeing it, seeing the widening gaps and the increasing obviousness of it, is truly depressing. One example I can’t escape is our neighbourhood. To the northern end of the street, on “the development”, big 4 bedroom homes are going up rapidly. 30 new homes were built in the last 18 months. These homes average around the $700K mark. The residents of these houses drive to and from their homes in new model BMW’s, Audi’s and ginormous SUV’s with their expensive loud car stereo’s blaring day and night.

    The the southern end of the street on the old part of “the development” are small flimsily built houses from the 1980’s on tiny sections. Most are rentals with people moving in and out all the time. One of them is owned by a particularly greedy landlord who wants $450 pw for a shabby run down rental that has mould all down the south side of the house, as most of those houses do. Unsurprisingly that it has been sitting empty for around 6 weeks now.

    Then, in town, the number is people begging is a really sobering sight. It was never like this. Some people stand out as one’s who never really expected to see themselves in that position From young men in their early twenties to a woman in her sixties, who I saw last week. Newbies, in addition to the regulars.

    It feels so wrong and so alien that we are separating from our seams. It feels strange to live in this new New Zealand, where our social foundations have shifted beneath our feet. I never thought there would be a time when I would feel such anger and sorrow at the sights we see now. That and shame.

    Does anyone else feel like this or am I just over sensitive?

    • Paul 7.1

      Feel the same as you.
      The western world is in crisis.

      • Rosie 7.1.1

        Re your BBC link above. My English in laws, old fashioned conservatives, are really upset to see what has happened to their former country. They express quite a lot of bitterness towards Cameron in particular and don’t see any hope for improvement, even if there was a change of govt later in the year there. It’s too far gone.

        • Paul

          Yes, too far gone now.
          The scene where local councils had a fair to sell off their assets to foreign billionaires was one of the most depressing.

          • Rosie

            “The scene where local councils had a fair to sell off their assets to foreign billionaires was one of the most depressing.”

            Oh really? Is that in the doco? Unbelievable.

    • greywarshark 7.2

      @ Rosie
      When you can see the stark contrast under your nose as you have, you can’t avoid the smell. So many people do.

      I am angry that there is no attempt by government to foster business and create work doing some of the things that need to be done, but haven’t been funded. Get them done now. Train people to build their own houses ets. Keep NZ alive and keen,.
      But no its leave it to the slit-eyed speculators (Saurons) and fast boys and girls who want to swan around. Fuck everybody else.

      And the thought keeps repeating boringly. If Labour had tried harder, and at the same time, used every legitimate avenue to get votes and electoral advantage we would have a different government that would be slightly better at least.

      So we are now stuck and people have hunkered down into survival mode with no idea of how they could make things better. So many rich and poor have lost their soul, and spirit has been lost as well by those near the bottom. A sad and unattractive NZr has emerged, a mutation from the previous kiwi and perhaps an enduring type that will be permanent.

      • Rosie 7.2.1

        I think your last paragraph sums it up Warbs. It’s now just survival mode for many. Something is lost. That soul you mention maybe.

    • Tracey 7.3

      At least the “poor” and the “rich” are living in the same street. The sale of state houses has seen so many of our wealthiest suburbs saved from having to see “poor” people in their daily lives making it easier for them to pretend they don’t exist..

      • Rosie 7.3.1

        Yes. The luxury car drivers just hoon noisily through the south end in air conditioned comfort.

        I should add there are some regular cars living up the North end and in the South end the odd house has a good car parked in the drive. I wonder if once they could afford a decent car but it got harder keeping up with living expenses in a time of stagnant wage growth and they had to drop their accommodation down a scale.

    • One example I can’t escape is our neighbourhood. To the northern end of the street, on “the development”, big 4 bedroom homes are going up rapidly. 30 new homes were built in the last 18 months. These homes average around the $700K mark. The residents of these houses drive to and from their homes in new model BMW’s, Audi’s and ginormous SUV’s with their expensive loud car stereo’s blaring day and night.

      The the southern end of the street on the old part of “the development” are small flimsily built houses from the 1980’s on tiny sections. Most are rentals with people moving in and out all the time.

      Lindsay Mitchell provides a good explanation of this disparity. Relevant bit:

      “Single parent families headed by females with no or low educational qualifications and/or work experience increased significantly through to the turn of the century…

      At the same time, partnered woman increasingly either remained working or returned to work earlier after childbirth.

      In a nutshell, there are now more households with one work-less parent, and more households with two working parents. The difference between the the incomes of the two households is pronounced.”


      • greywarshark 7.4.1

        Psycho Melt
        There are many working families struggling to survive financially and in jobs that provide a living and leave life time for workers. It isn’t just solo parents that are having difficulties and on survival incomes, and depressed and sick etc.

        There has been a loss of business enterprises and job opportunities and stable working hours, caused by government and business trends, running concurrently with women trying to make a go of it alone. The social system has not encouraged women to stay home and have babies as a way of life living on the gummint.

        Everything Lindsay Mitchell says about social conditions tends to fault single parents because she is an obssessed, silo thinker. And enjoys broadcasting an aura of being a pure, good little woman with high morals, financially responsible and able to sit in judgment on poor women who don’t match her attributes. There are a number of other types of people who don’t have high morals and are financially criminal on an exponential scale, but it’s easier to pick on the smaller, more vulnerable ones.

        In a nutshell, there are now more households with one work-less parent, and more households with two working parents. The difference between the the incomes of the two households is pronounced.”
        I think we know who the nuts are after reading you and Mitchell.

        At the same time, partnered woman increasingly either remained working or returned to work earlier after childbirth.
        In the modern world, women are expected to have quantum qualities. I understand that scientific situation is where something is in more than one place simultaneously. It is hard to understand.

        It is also apparently hard to understand that one person can’t be two people. Partnered women going back to work early have someone to share duties of care with. One solo parent cannot do two parents tasks in a quarter of the time. She can’t split herself in half of the one person she is, and send one half to work, and the other half on child care.

        She must try to do the full role of two herself. And the father, would he be a good parent and a pillar of the family? She just might have recognised he would be more trouble as a husband and require from her more responsible care than the child he has fathered.

        • Psycho Milt

          Your bizarre and malicious assessment of Lindsay Mitchell’s character is of course your own problem. As to the stuff below that, well duh – you’re saying the same thing she is in different words.

          • greywarshark

            Yes different words, and the way they are read, are all important. And I think both you Psycho Milk and Mitchell are extemely malicious in your attacks on the vulnerable in the society that your sort has made and is now enjoying, and kicking others who aren’t and are struggling. So don’t throw around your innuendoes and BS and think you won’t get a reaction.

            • Psycho Milt

              I think both you Psycho Milk and Mitchell are extemely malicious in your attacks on the vulnerable…

              Sure. And I think you’re extremely irrational in your attacks on the vulnerable (whatever that means). But does that really need to be inflicted on whoever reads this thread?

              • greywarshark

                It seems that you don not think that single parents and beneficiaries are vulnerable, also those on low incomes and with unstable work hours, the working poor.

                Sure. And I think you’re extremely irrational in your attacks on the vulnerable (whatever that means). But does that really need to be inflicted on whoever reads this thread?

                Instead you imply you can’t understand who I consider vulnerable perhaps considering that you and Mitchell are in this class? RW self-centred people resenting paying affordable taxes say they feel vulnerable. The idea that they are expected to pay a fair proportion of their booty to the system to assist those who have not had the chance to move from the bottom rung.

      • Rosie 7.4.2

        Lindsay Mitchell supports the govt’s social welfare reforms. I don’t see how that will bring us back to being a more inclusive society. She’s used the right wing framing “welfare dependence” as a way of blaming women for something beyond their control, for not being educated and therefore not having access to higher paying jobs. How can they afford the cost of an education in the first place? What if they left their abusive husband? What if a whole lot of reasons have left them in a situation they never dreamed they could be in, and find themselves criticised as being welfare dependent”?

        “What the OECD report Campbell refers to said was that, “…active labour market policies, childcare supports and in-work benefits” are needed if increased economic growth is desired. This recognises that children coming out of disadvantaged homes eg unemployed households, need a working parent and better engagement with education from an early age.

        The welfare reforms instituted by the National government (and Labour prior with the creation of the In Work Tax Credit) have gone some way to fulfilling this goal but need to go much further. Reducing welfare dependence would contribute enormously to reducing inequality.”

        It’s not an explanation of disparity, it’s a criticism of those who need help.

        As far the south end of the street goes, it’s dead quiet during the day. The houses are locked up so I’m guessing everyone is out at work. Their dependence isn’t on the state, it’s on some boss paying them minimum wage. The working poor I’m guessing.
        In the mean time the north end is busy with Mum’s going out with their babies and toddlers for walks

        • greywarshark

          @ Rosie
          Women having babies when they are young. It sounds very natural and in line with the biological imperative that hangs over all of us. We all have a strong sexual tide but it’s good if we can delay getting swept along on it. Those who are curious about it when young, trying to learn about it, experiment with attraction and try and understand the opposite sex, or indeed one’s own, are also normal.
          Only women bleed is a song which is very poignant. And women end up bearing the babies which are the physical evidence of learning about sex relationships.

          Turning those experiencing sex into pariahs when they do conceive their babies is a cultural perversion that has been adopted by a rigid, human-denying political cult. (I consider that religion has political aspects.) This shows a particularly skewed culture. The Handmaids Tale by Margaret Atwood shows the screwy side of human nature responding to the sexual imperative.

          Our rules that moralise against the tendency towards sexual contact and behaviours that are natural impulses and the child that eventuates, make for great opportunities to judge others, and speak dismissively against people, and feel so damn superior with it. It was hard to introduce contraceptives at the beginning, and keeping them cheap and educating publicly the importance of using them is positive for good outcomes. Also those who are unable to use them all the time can have their fertility tamed with long-lasting methods.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Turning those experiencing sex into pariahs when they do conceive their babies is a cultural perversion that has been adopted by a rigid, human-denying political cult. (I consider that religion has political aspects.)

            Exactly. The cult of Thanatos, in fact.

      • McFlock 7.4.3


    • Karen 7.5

      Rosie, I feel the same as you when I look around and see so many people struggling to survive, while others flaunt their wealth.
      This is so different to the NZ I grew up in. I came from a large working class family and life wasn’t always easy, but we got to live in a state house in a nice suburb, my Dad always had work (although it was not well paid) and we always had enough to eat. I didn’t see beggars in the streets of Auckland until the early 1990s when the benefit cuts kicked in.

      I get incensed by all these wealthy people who think they “deserve” their extravagant lifestyles, and blame poor people for situations they find themselves in. NZ used to be considered a good place for kids to grow up in, but for so many now this is far from the truth.
      What also makes me angry is that this is so shortsighted. The costs of neglecting the needs of the poor and vulnerable are seen down the track in the health and justice systems

      • Murray Rawshark 7.5.1

        When I was a kid, the head of the Northland Harbour Board was a farmer who drove a Rolls. He used to cart sheep and dogs around in the boot and we thought that made him a fairly normal bloke. He even picked up hitchhikers. I heard stories later that he got rich because he’d owned land that was sold for Marsden Point. I don’t know, but he was the only conspicuously wealthy person I can remember from my first 15 years. Now it seems that if you don’t have a house and a wife and a two car garage and a teenage daughter………, you’re a failure. Something horrible has happened.

    • The Murphey 7.6


      Yes it is terribly sad to see what NZ has become and saddening that it is likely to get much worse

      ‘The West’ is experiencing predictable outcomes and unfortunately I don’t see how it can be halted

      Heartbreaking not only for NZ but this world we are born into which has a historical lineage of perpetual pain and suffering

      Stay strong

  8. Draco T Bastard 8

    Who wouldn’t want to live in a skyscraper with these sorts of gardens?

  9. With the Charlie Hebdo massacre and the killing of suspects merely because they appeared to be planning a terrorist attack in Viviers, Belgium yesterday and the call for a global law against criticizing Israel for it’s genocidal policies I thought it timely to point out once again that all of this mayhem started with the events of 9/11

    • Te Reo Putake 9.1


      • freedom 9.1.2

        There are now 2323 registered Architects and Engineers who have signed up to the fight for an investigation of the facts. Maybe it’s time you took the leap and actually listened to what they have to say. Or are you waiting until it is 5,000?

        Also five hours of facts and questions, not suppostition and fantasy, facts.
        Many of which have not been in the public domain all that long http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/september-11-new-pearl-harbor/

        Roll your eyes as long and as often as you like.
        It won’t stop those who think your right to a free world is worth fighting for.

        • Te Reo Putake

          14 years, no evidence, Freedom. Not a single scrap of evidence that supports any alternative conspiracy. Nada. Nothing.

          The rolly eyes were for Ev’s mad assertion that there was “killing of suspects merely because they appeared to be planning a terrorist attack in Viviers, Belgium”.

          • freedom

            “Not a single scrap of evidence that supports any alternative conspiracy.”
            i am not sure which is more distressing, that you think other people would believe that statement or that you believe that statement.

            The official explanation does not even factually represent the structures that were destroyed so straight away there is evidence that the official story warrants questions. What scares you the most about the call for a full investigation? Anyway, just wanted to make sure that you were reminded the issue does not go away just because you are afraid of where it leads.

            Have a good Friday.

          • Paul

            I think evidence is required to support the official conspiracy theory.
            Bin Laden etc etc.

          • phillip ure


            ..there are more ‘scraps’ than u cn poke a stick at..

          • Colonial Rawshark

            14 years, no evidence, Freedom. Not a single scrap of evidence that supports any alternative conspiracy. Nada. Nothing.

            Architects and Engineers for 9/11 are seeking a full and independent review of the existing evidence, and also to carry out new physical tests and modelling.

        • Paul

          Doubt he’s looked at the evidence.
          Simply stating ‘conspiracy’ or ‘tin foil hat’ saves the bother of discussing difficult issues.

          • Te Reo Putake

            Can’t look at what doesn’t exist. 14 years, no evidence.

            • Paul

              Repeating a mantra is good for meditation.
              Not really a debating technique, though.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Can’t debate what doesn’t exist. Move on to real world issues.

                • Paul

                  9/11 did not exist?

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    Can’t debate what doesn’t exist. Move on to real world issues.

                    You’ll notice that TRP is really eager not to go there, to the extent of making statements which are clearly inaccurate.

                    1) People debate possibilities and hypotheticals all the time. Even the existence (or non-existence) of God.

                    2) The events of 9/11 have launched major wars, cost trillions of dollars, and helped the power elite justify a security and surveillance apparatus which is over taking every western democracy. There is nothing more “real world” than that.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    Note TRP also says:

                    Can’t look at what doesn’t exist. 14 years, no evidence.

                    If we handled things TRP’s way, we would never even bother to look for evidence i.e. there is no evidence, so we’re not going to look for evidence, hence we’re not going to find any evidence; and because we don’t have any evidence, it’s not worth looking for evidence.

                    Basically, it’s the 3 monkeys.

                    • McFlock

                      Actually, it’s 14 years of looking, both professional investigations and the nutbar contingent, and no evidence of anything other than a bunch of blokes flying planes into buildings. Except of maybe the doubtful sanity of <1% of registered architects and engineers, of course.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Write it off then McFlock, all the testimony and analysis of hundreds of professionals and also the emergency responders who were at the scene; convincing you is no longer my concern.

      • Paul 9.1.3

        Before shooting the messenger, deal with the issue.

        Building 7 cannot be explained.

        • Te Reo Putake

          Um, a large lump of an even larger building fell on it. So, yeah, easily explained. 14 years, no evidence.

          • Paul

            Please provide evidence of this ‘large lump of an even larger building fell on it’ causing it to fall.
            I actually think you are woefully informed on the matter.

            • Te Reo Putake

              Woe is you 🙂 And yes, I am, as you note, informed on this issue. Years of laughing at rightwing loons will do that for ya.

              The real issue is capitalism. Capitalism loves it when otherwise intelligent people waste time wandering down blind alleys like this.

              • Paul

                I would describe myself as left wing. Wayne describes me as hard left!

                So are many who question the official 9/11 conspiracy.
                9/11 is not a left/right wing issue.


                • Te Reo Putake

                  While it’s true that not all 9/11 nutters are righties, most are. Particularly the American ones, where there is a two century long tradition of blaming the government (federal and state) for problems that are actually caused by capitalism.

                  There’s a shitload of actual problems in this world that need attention. If you’re really left wing, they’ll be your priority.

                  • adam

                    I agree Te Reo Putake. People need to deal with their Catharthis, and move on.

                    Global Climate change
                    Authoritarianism or lets call a spade a spade
                    All those totalitarian states out there
                    GREED – GREED – GREED

                    Yeap, we got work to do.

                    • vto

                      I don’t agree at all. If the official line is true then sure all is good and we can move on….

                      but if the official line is not true then all is far from good and even those issues you mention cannot be properly attended…

                      so who is telling the truth? George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield? Seems some here believe them to be upright decent god-fearing folk …..

            • freedom

              You will not get a sensible discussion with TRP (and many others) on this topic Paul so save yourself the frustration. If you want to help people question the official line, all you can do is present information, and quietly remind people that 350 years on, Sir issac Newton has never lost a game.

              • Paul

                Thanks for the advice.
                Will follow.

                • Belgium Police “believed” there was an imminent threat and now we will never know because they shot two people nobody will care about because they probably had beards, where brown and had the bad religion dujour! Case closed

                  For those of you who want to see what happened to the policeman allegedly killed a close range during the events in Paris here is a video you might want to check out!

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    They shot two who were firing at them and captured one who didn’t. Do try and keep up.

                    That video’s shit, too.

                    • Well they would say that wouldn’t they. No it is not. And you don’t have to watch it as your job is just to be a shill and derail real debate but trust me enough people get to see that video.

                      Same as the photo of all those leaders fronting the march. Not!

                      Sidney perpetrator. Dead. Paris perpetrators. Dead. The commissioner who was preparing the report on the investigation with regards to the Charlie Hebdo case commits suicide after he speaks with his superiors during a briefing. Ottawa perpetrator. Dead.
                      Something of a pattern here. No court cases, no proof, no witnesses. Just what the MS tells us!

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      The only thing it tells us that if you shoot at armed police, you tend to end up dead. Given that these idiots are convinced they’re going to heaven as martyrs, they do tend go down the death by cop route quite regularly. Seriuosly, do you have anything to contribute that isn’t complete and utter bullshit?

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Think about your log burner. Minor internal fires should have zero impact on the structural integrity of a steel framed skyscraper, let alone cause an entire tower to collapse.

            And in the 14 years since 9/11, not a single skyscraper in the world has collapsed due to fire!

            • Te Reo Putake

              It wasn’t the (actually massive) fire that brought it down, CV. Have a look at Joe90’s links.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                So, NIST ran a computer simulation – using utterly made up parameters in a model which they have never shared – which suggested that damage to a minor part of one of the structural columns in WTC7 could cause the entire skyscraper to symmetrically and progressively collapse.

                What a load of horse shit.

                If they really believed their findings they would have ordered urgent remedial structural work be done on every similar kind of building in the world.

                A building like that can contain thousands of people. Their lives are all at stake even as we speak, to a critical design flaw which can take down the entire structure.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  And yet, that’s what happened. Funny old world, eh. As I suggested, have a look at Joe90’s links. There was massive structural damage (and a pretty massive fire, too).

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    I love your blind faith and acceptance.

                    Fuck off on “looking at Joe’s links”

                    I have.

                    What there convinced you mate. Point it out.

                    As you noted, fire is irrelevant in the structural integrity of the skyscraper. If you believe that, don’t bring it up.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “As you noted, fire is irrelevant in the structural integrity of the skyscraper. If you believe that, don’t bring it up.”

                      I didn’t bring it up! That strawman is all your own work, bro.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      There was massive structural damage (and a pretty massive fire, too).

                      You wrote it, so own it.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      I was just correcting your inference at 1.47 that the fire was minor.

                      My initial comment (an hour earlier) was this: “Um, a large lump of an even larger building fell on it.”

                      You are the one who bought up the fiery strawman, CV.

                      Geddit, now?

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      As I said, the fire big or small is irrelevant.

                    • vto

                      colonial rawshark, te reo uptake only has time for the official line, nothing else, and also believes that humans, particularly politically involved humans, don’t conspire.

                      You waste your time

              • Skinny

                Full pay load of aviation fuel on fire turned welded muck metal lugs supporting each floor into butter. Once that happened the combined weight from the floors above caused a pancake effect and down they both came. Had it been the empire state building hit, I doubt very much it would have collapsed. Crap design, crap result.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Once that happened the combined weight from the floors above caused a pancake effect and down they both came

                  Jet A which is essentially kerosene, burns in the open air at approx 350 deg C. What alloy “turns to butter” at that temp?

                  • nadis

                    Check out the checklist here and see how many of the 10 questions your average truther would fail to answer.


                    CR – you are wilfully ignorant of simple facts, in fact I’d say you just make shit up and not very well either. Citation please for jet fuel temperature?

                    Cant find one?

                    Why not try this:


                    Look at that. Open air burn tempurature 1030C, Adiabatic temperature 2230 C.

                    Gosh, thats interesting isn’t it?

                    I know you are anti-science, but read the popular mechanics study. Not a single thing that cannot be explained scientifically

                  • Skinny

                    Add the truck loads of paper, plastic, ink, rubber and you have quite a cocktail that will burn hot alright. However appects of the whole 9/11 don’t stack up.

                    • nadis

                      So you are dismissing all the scientific knowledge referenced on that wikipedia page as “wrong”. Don’t trust scientists and engineers.

                      Actually I think you are right – it is quite clear – it is part of the conspiracy. Scientists and engineers have conspired to lie about the true burn temperature of kerosene in order to hide the fact that Mossad used nano-thermite to bring down the buildings. Claiming the burn temperature of jet fuel is 1030 to 2230 C when it is actually 350C is a key part of the cover up. It was quite a big job, changing every physical and electronic reference to the true burn temperature, but luckily the NSA working with the illuminati managed to pull it off.

                      How can you make ridiculously dishonest claims like this and keep a straight face? You are an idiot.

                • Skinny, Building 7 was TWICE reinforced to withstand a close by nuclear blast and contained the safety bunker for Giuliani who happened to have left the building in the morning running around the World trade center for some strange reason.

                  By the way here is Edna Cintron standing in the hole made by one of the planes. She is holding onto the steel from the building. That doesn’t look hot to me.

                  • nadis

                    Building 7 was TWICE reinforced to withstand a close by nuclear blast

                    Can you provide a citation for that bold claim? I’m quite interested as a previous employer of mine had offices in that building and I had visited it on numerous occasions.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Every floor of this Grozny hotel was on fire – but no free fall collapse on to its own foot print.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Dubai skyscraper – burns for 8 hours through multiple floors – again no freefall collapse. No collapse at all.


          • Colonial Rawshark

            30 storey Shanghai skyscraper fully alight – workers killed – but no collapse.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Already damaged NY skyscraper to be demolished after 9/11 catches fire – doesn’t collapse.

          • Murray Rawshark

            I looked at the first of your videos, Joe90. I had also watched others and timed the collapses. The people who talk about “free-fall speed” are wrong in many ways. You can do some very simple calculations to show it. But I’ve course I’m wrong because shill, Iluminati, and Alex Jones. I also know people who work at NIST and think they’re honest, so Rothschild, Bunderberg and lizards too.

            • joe90

              RWNJ warmonger makes sense.

              What’s going on here?

              I fear we are witnessing the “death of expertise”: a Google-fueled, Wikipedia-based, blog-sodden collapse of any division between professionals and laymen, students and teachers, knowers and wonderers – in other words, between those of any achievement in an area and those with none at all.


              • Murray Rawshark

                I’m not sure who the RWNJ warmonger is, but my expertise is not fuelled by Google or Wikipedia. I learned Newton’s Laws before either ever existed.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  You’re a physics guy. What happened to the forces that had been supporting the top of the towers against gravity ever since they were completed, at the time of collapse?

  10. greywarshark 10

    travellerev started off 25 comments with a 9/11 reference.

    Can we have a compost garden where we dump all these bits of old argumnets, not Open Mike though. Perhaps it could be named Continuing Controversies – Stranger than Fiction. And then people can go there and turn over the soil searching for archaelogical treasures.

    As TRP says there are big issues still to face. And we need to look at them or we are as useless as a country’s surveillance set-up that fails to spot and defuse the perps that will destroy us, given the chance.

    • Open mike is the Standards “free speech” zone to bring up any subject you deem important combined with the freedom to comment on other posts provided you stay on topic. You don’t like it scroll past it or move to France. I heard they just arrested 57 people including a famous comedian for having controversial opinions going against the accepted opinion of all Muslims are crazy violent extremists. So much for free speech.

      We started to vilify Muslims with the events of 9/11. The science doesn’t add up even if the twerp rolls his eyes. So I’ll keep on bringing it up.

      Free speech is there especially for those people who say things a lot of other people don’t like to hear and a total bitch for people who don’t like to hear things they don’t want to know about.

      • Te Reo Putake 10.1.1

        “I heard they just arrested 57 people including a famous comedian for having controversial opinions going against the accepted opinion of all Muslims are crazy violent extremists.”

        Nope. It was for hate speech. Good job, too.

        “We started to vilify Muslims with the events of 9/11”

        Nope, it’s been going on for a couple of thousand years.

        “The science doesn’t add up even if the twerp rolls his eyes. So I’ll keep on bringing it up. ”

        The science it what disproves your mad theories.

        “Free speech is there especially for those people who say things a lot of other people don’t like to hear and a total bitch for people who don’t like to hear things they don’t want to know about.”

        Never a truer word spoken. You hate it when people speak rationally.

      • greywarshark 10.1.2

        I am being especially open and fair to you. I am suggesting that you and others with your particular types of interest should have your own post. I cannot understand why you would object to that. It seems eminently sensible.

  11. stever 11

    So life on Earth will continue, even with the way we are treating it…unfortunately it won’t include mammals as large as humans 🙁


    • Colonial Rawshark 11.1

      Correct – the Earth won’t even miss us. It might take 5,000-10,000 years for the damage we have wrought on the planet to be largely eradicated but as you know, that’s just a blink in the scheme of things

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1

        Well, it took the Earth about 10 million years to recover the biodiversity after the Permian Extinction Event. Anthropogenic Climate Change is pushing us towards a similar level of extinction.

        And, yeah, the Earth won’t miss us and life will carry on. The next go at intelligent life may be more successful and not wipe itself out after only a few thousand years of civilisation.

  12. thechangeling 12

    For tertiary students, Studylink are just as bad as Winz now when a student tries to get financial assistance during the summer break. I applied in early November for the student hardship unemployment benefit and was told I may or may not be eligible, but that don’t worry, everything will be taken care of. I rang them today and they said I’m not eligible (i still don’t understand why). And that a $70 food grant is all i can have.
    God I was angry. Two months without money is crazy. A deliberate policy perhaps to reduce government spending by our insane National Government I presume?
    How many others out there have experienced this, this summer?

    • Te Reo Putake 12.1

      Was any reason given? I thought going onto the student unemployment benefit over summer was almost automatic unless you weren’t returning to study or had a temp job to do instead.

      • thechangeling 12.1.1

        Not any more it would seem. A system designed to screen out, frustrate and deny applications without any legitimate nor coherent reasons for doing so, except the neo-liberally inspired ideology of reducing government spending generally, to thus lower the future tax base for corporates and their political cronies.
        I complied with the requirement of registering at student job search (I have no paid employment) and this is the result. Question remains, am I alone (I seriously doubt it) and just how many others out there are being thwarted similarly?

        • Te Reo Putake

          Don’t want to quibble, but surely they must have to give reasons for the denial? And presumably you have some right of appeal. In my dealings with Studylink they gave reasons for every decision via email and when I challenged one decision, they changed their mind and went with what I wanted. I was really impressed with their openess and accessability, including being able to get good info via the freephone line. Not what I was expecting at all.

          • thechangeling

            I took the eligibility test. It said “you may be eligible for these… you may not be eligible for these but don’t worry we will sort it for you”. There was no stated reason. I assume they just change their criteria to reduce the number of people that qualify to reduce government spending that they are ordered to by the ministry.

            • Te Reo Putake

              You may well be correct. I hope you challenge it ASAP, because it doesn’t sound remotely right given your circumstances.

  13. Daily Quota 13

    Rest in Peace – Sir Ian Athfield


  14. mac1 14

    The boy in Blenheim who has cerebral palsy but no house to live in has been housed. Blenheim Housing Corp has found a house which had been decommissioned and fated for demolition. The house is warm according to his caregiver, and needs some general maintenance which is being done and will be fitted with an access ramp for Jack’s wheelchair.

    There is no emergency housing in Blenheim. There are however thirty four state houses to be sold and obviously this one had some life still left in it, though it was destined for demolition!

    • greywarshark 14.1

      Sounds like a description of New Zealand. Give us a ramp up and heaven knows what we will be able to achieve with a less than perfect structure but some enthusiasm and practical assistance.

    • Treetop 14.2

      The assessment for housing is done over the phone when it comes to a HNZ placement. To find out if a person is eligible Work and Income do the assessment at the nearest office.

      Something is REALLY not working when it comes to those who qualify.

  15. Morrissey 16

    This Interview With a Woman Dating Her Father Will Haunt You Forever

    Here’s a couple of articles for any ACT voters out there….



  16. Herodotus 18

    As the weekend social topic is still on holiday, and that appears to be the home for gardening topics.
    Has anyone else noticed that there are a lack of monarch butterflies around ?
    even my swan plants that have netting protecting them the caterpillars are still disappearing and my plants remain in pristine condition, and there are few wasps around, even less after the fly swat has been put to good use.

    • greywarshark 18.1

      @ Herodotus
      Do you belong to or know someone in the Butterfly Trust. It might be called the Monarch Butterfly Trust. I have thought about it as I find the things facinating and beautiful. I have seen a few of The Wanderers but can’t tell about status.

      By the way I am interested in NZ preying mantis which is another thing that has gone down in huge numbers, partly I think because of small predatory wasps but also I think the more robust, and active south african preying mantis will eat the little guys either in their eggs or while they are small and of course tend to wobble about in place in the hope that they will look like a stalk.

  17. greywarshark 19

    Mum the boys and girls are fighting about the 9 September building fire again. Make them stop please.

  18. greywarshark 20

    Mum the boys and girls are fighting about the 9/11 building fire again. Make them stop please.

  19. Paul 22

    Wish I had time to do a post on this.
    2 studies say our effect on the environment in risking future human life on earth.


  20. fisiani 23

    John Key could be in office till he chooses to retire as no one will contemplate challenging him. Andrew Little has the support of four of his colleagues and will no doubt be challenged by the uber ambitious Grant Robertson before 2017. Little winning then does not benefit GR. Watch for the factions forming. I cannot see any unity in Labour and that is political poison.

  21. Penny Bright 24

    When are the Labour Party going to prove that they have well and truly put ‘Rogernomics’ behind them – by coming out HARD and STRONG against the next wave of ‘Rogernomics’ at local government level – the proposed Wellington ‘Supercity’?

    Why is ANY further Council amalgamation being even considered without a full, independent audit for ‘cost-effectiveness’ for the majority of citizens and ratepayers of the Auckland forced amalgamation?

    Where is the current ‘datum’ which shows costs of Council services and regulatory functions across the Greater Wellington region?

    Why was such a ‘datum’ never established by the Auckland Royal Commission – given that their ‘terms of reference’ were based upon ‘cost-effectiveness’?

    Why are two, in my considered opinion, ‘Rogernomes’, Fran Wilde (former Chief Labour Whip – 1984 – 1987), and former President of the CTU Ken Douglas, (who ‘transmogrified’ from a workers advocate to a pro-business champion) – leading the push for this Wellington ‘Supercity’?

    Penny Bright

  22. Colonial Rawshark 25

    Ukraine initiating army draft: 50,000 men to go to the front lines in the Donbass after 10-15 days of basic training.

    As some hack recently said…the USA is happy to fight Russia down to the last Ukranian.


  23. Penny Bright 26

    I’m with Ev on the 9/11 issue.

    If the heat generated by burning airplane fuel can melt steel – how come your kerosene heater doesn’t melt when you fire it up?


    Have you checked out the latest info on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website?

    But hey – what the hell would a couple of thousand qualified steel engineers and architects know about the collapse of big buildings like the Twin Towers & WTC 7 ?

    ‘Seek truth from FACTS’ – folks!

    The WAR ON TERROR – conveniently started by 9/11 – is a TRILLION dollar business – follow the dollar …..

    Penny Bright
    Advanced Trade SheetMetal Engineering

    • McFlock 26.1

      The most surprising thing about that comment is the idea that you still have a kerosene heater.

      • adam 26.1.1

        Burning carbons their/there/they’re Penny?

        Look If their is a 9/11 conspiracy – then the right wing did it – and it’s their problem to sort amongst themselves.

      • Sacha 26.1.2

        Down t’mines..

      • marty mars 26.1.3

        Yep… and why do people keep using the term ‘folks’ I can’t stand that.

      • Colonial Rawshark 26.1.4

        The most surprising thing about that comment is the idea that you still have a kerosene heater.

        aluminium has half the melting point of steel.

        You can chuck a soft drink can in a container of kerosene, set it alight, and it won’t even deform.

        So a kerosene fire has fuck all chance of causing melting the steel seen pouring out of the upper WTC windows.

        • Te Reo Putake

          Bugger kerosene. What’s the melting point of steel, CV? What’s the melting point of aluminium? What is the adiabatic temp of jet fuel? Look ’em up, compare and contrast, and if you’re not too embarrassed by the answers, do let us know.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            The really embarrassing thing here is that you don’t seem to understand what an “adiabatic temperature” is or how it is applied. Put it this way: the adiabatic temperature of candle wax is approximately 1500 deg C. This is more than double the melting point of aluminium.

            Of course, you can’t use a candle to melt an aluminium pot.

            Let’s use another hotter example. The adiabatic temperature of natural gas is almost 2000 deg C, which is roughly 3x higher than the melting point of aluminium.

            But placing an aluminium pot on your gas stove doesn’t melt the pot. It doesn’t even soften or deform the pot.

            Lesson: the adiabatic temperature is irrelevant in an open air fire.

            • McFlock

              actually, I have melted a hole in an aluminium pot once. Because the pot was empty. Yes, it took a bit of effort and distraction, but I fucked up boiling water.

        • McFlock

          really, cr? Have you done this experiment yourself? And are you therefore extrapolating that a burned jet won’t be deformed at all?

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Notice how the cylindrical shape of the fuselage remains intact, as well as the rectangular window holes. The visible wing has also kept it’s aerodynamic shape correctly. And there do not appear to be any pools of melted steel or aluminium on the tarmac from the burning jet fuel or aircraft fire.

            Of course, the structure of that aircraft was also affected by fuel tank explosions, making that example less relevant.

            • McFlock

              OK. Let’s do this for dummies: take a ruler: is the top of the fuselage straight? How rectangular are the windows above the characters “B186”?
              And do you see all the foam and firefighters needed to stop it getting worse?

              • Colonial Rawshark

                The joins between specific sections of the cylindrical fuselage have failed, yes, particularly where undercarriage collapse has placed excessive flex through the connecting welds and joints of those sections.

                But I say again – the basic cylindrical shape of the fuselage is undisturbed, the windows are square and underformed by heat, and there are no melted pools of aluminium or steel on the tarmac. Even the cylindrical sections themselves individually stay straight.

                None of that would be the case if the kerosene fire had approached anything like the melting temperature of steel or aluminium.

                • McFlock

                  ok, let’s make it reaaaaallllyy simple.
                  How rectangular are the windows above the letters “B186”? Take your time…

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    windows along the entire length of the aircraft, especially the ones closest to the wing fuel tanks, were exposed to the full force of the kerosene fire, McFlock. They are fine. Not sure what happened to the small number of windows forward and away from where the fuel fire was concentrated, that you point out. There may have been other components or metals in that specific section you are noting which may have burned much hotter than a kerosene fire.

                    • McFlock

                      So are you suggesting that the temperature of a fire in the real world might exceed the constant-pressure flame temperature of one of its constituent fuels? Shock. Horror.

                      Then why are you guys wasting our time talking about aluminium cans and kerosene heaters???

  24. Penny Bright 27

    You may recall that 9/11 was one of the excuses used by the US Government to invade Iraq?

    9/11 was also the excuse used by the US Government to ‘sacrifice liberty for security’ and spawned global ‘anti-terrorism’ legislation?

    So – don’t you think that seeking the TRUTH about 9/11 is OUR problem – given it’s directly affected us here in NZ?

    I do.

    Good on Richard Gage and all the gutsy, decent Americans who are trying to hold the US Government to account by demanding the truth about 9/11.

    And good on folks like Ev here in NZ who’ve had the guts to swim against the tide from very early on, trying to ‘blow the whistle’ and alert the public about 9/11.

    Great work Ev!

    Keep it up.


    Penny Bright

  25. Penny Bright 28

    Indeed we do.

    I’m proud to be a friend of Ev – a gutsy ‘free-thinker’ who’s prepared to swim against the tide, and ‘seek truth from FACTS’ .

    Some of you whining lot might like to try that – for the novelty factor?

    Penny Bright

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