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Open mike 16/10/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2012 - 136 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

136 comments on “Open mike 16/10/2012”

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  1. Jenny 1
    16 October 2012 at 6:09 am

    ‘
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7819005/Trust-in-police-hits-new-low-survey-shows

    Arresting an MP for bad parking and beating housing protesters to help the government steal and vandalise state houses.

    Illegal links with foreign spies and agents.

    Toadying to Hollywood business interests

    Refusing to investigate perjury by themselves

    Spying

    Law breaking

    Is it any wonder?

  2. Jenny 2
    16 October 2012 at 6:13 am

    With the demand for tighter links with the US….

    Will this be the new, New Zealand police force look?

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/walmart-workers-strike-for-safe-warehouse-conditio

    As our security and police are already in lockstep agreement with the US in taking ‘over the top’ actions in partizan defence of corporate interests, even if it entails breaking the law. It can only be a matter of time.

    When it comes to civil liberties, as the saying goes; “You will only know what you’ve got, when it is gone”

    The civil liberties which we enjoy today have been hard fought for over centuries by previous generations, and are there for a reason.

    Fight to keep New Zealand sovereignity and civil liberties inviolate.

    Demand:

    NO illegal spying!

    NO soft touch for police perjury!

    NO extradition with out a hearing!

    NO hearings without evidence being presented!

  3. AsleepWhileWorking 3
    16 October 2012 at 6:16 am

    Today Ira Bailey will be made a scape goat by MSD and the media, following Paula Bennett’s example of publicly outing anyone who speaks against them.

    I call upon you my fellow commentators not to let this go undefended and to constantly retort that Ira was only doing what is industry standard – asking for a reward for uncovering vulnerabilities is normal practice, not blackmail as they will try to imply.

    • muzza 3.1
      16 October 2012 at 9:29 am

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7821061/Key-critical-of-Winz-security-breach-finder

      Bailey was arrested in October 2007 as part of the police raid against a suspected terror plot but charges against him were later dropped.

      Key today said he had been advised Bailey phoned the ministry about a week ago indicating there was a security problem, but didn’t identify the kiosks.

      Look at the framing, “he is a terrorist!” – So “blackmail” is no worries for Bailey then eh!

      “[He was] just pointing to the system and wanting an incentive payment or wanting cash basically to tell us where the problem was,” he told TV3’s Firstline programme.

      The ministry’s policy was not to give money for information, he said.

      We have some truly evil people “running” this country, and the MSM are a utter disgarace!

      • Dr Terry 3.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 12:22 pm

        muzza – evil people running the country only get away with it, surely, only because they are supported by voters who compromise with evil.

        • muzza 3.1.1.1
          16 October 2012 at 5:39 pm

          Dr T, see my comment at 4.2.3.1..

          You are correct in that evil doers can only exist when the populace are complacent, or disenfranchised etc, which allows badness to happen.

          Perhaps if people understood that they were part of the whole, instead of operating in silo, then we might not be in such a mess.

          The corrupting/breaking of the human spirit, is the major feature of what we see these days!

    • David H 3.2
      16 October 2012 at 9:32 am

      But equally amazing is the statement that they checked the Kiosks after he rang in, and they could not find this simple breach? Who they using for IT security ? Daffy Duck?
      And the biggest question of all that has not been answered is Why were they on the same network as the corporate system?

      • muzza 3.2.2
        16 October 2012 at 9:48 am

        “But there was a design failure that we didn’t pick up or resolve when it came to the security breach. We should have done that but the people responsible for it, the IT department at the Ministry of Social Development, failed.”

        No way would this have been missed in the design/security, its too fundamental – This looks like another way of telling people that internal resources are not good enough, we will have to use external i.e Google etc, who can keep yoru privacy secure…This is BS!

        The independent inquiry would also look at why the ministry didn’t pick up the problem when it was raised a year ago by beneficiary advocate Kay Brereton.

        So, it was raised, with who? and why was it not fixed….smells like more BS!

        • weka 3.2.2.1
          16 October 2012 at 10:21 am

          Every fuck up by MSD/WINZ that makes it to the MSM is fodder for the eventual push to privatise welfare.

          • muzza 3.2.2.1.1
            16 October 2012 at 11:13 am

            Correct Weka – Its all part of the plan, you can call it a conspiracy too, because that is exactly what it is!

            Ill reitterate – The is NO WAY, that this security flaw was missed in the design/security assessments gates that are mandatory in the delivery! There are multiple vendors operating inside the public sector/govt space, who would have been involved in delivering this system. Notice that there is no mention of who was invovled, only reference is to “IT Department” ensuring that in the minds of the reader, this = Internal IT department = amateurs!

            Sometimes the plan comes apart, like with K.D.C, and TPTB need to re-group, but otherwise what is read and published in the papers, and via policy is the agenda of others, being forced down our throats!

  4. AsleepWhileWorking 4
    16 October 2012 at 6:20 am

    This government fails rape victims AGAIN. By constantly underfunding, changes to ACCSCU, and disregarding the law commissions recommendations I can only conclude they would like all of us to go away and die (providing they don’t have to pay for that). http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7819530/Help-for-rape-victims-under-threat

    • weka 4.1
      16 October 2012 at 8:49 am

      I really wish someone on the left would organise around women’s votes before the next election.

    • muzza 4.2
      16 October 2012 at 9:25 am

      What people need to understand is the darkness that is running all of the shows – Woman/Children/families, continually under attack, while men are left to rot not knowing what their role in life is, and the youth suicides of young boys and girls continues to climb, along with the poverty rates, and child abuse!

      Its time for people to start learning, understanding and accepting what those who claim to represent them, actually represent!

      Only when people understand what their enemy really is, can we collectively know how to respond!

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3
      16 October 2012 at 12:03 pm

      Green MP Jan Logie said it was appalling it had only taken the Government a year to renege on its commitment to the helpline.

      Should be getting used to that by now as it seems that one year is how long this government expects people to forget what they said.

    • Treetop 4.4
      16 October 2012 at 1:56 pm

      A 24 hour service is a right and a person would rather not need to have to use a rape service. The government just do not get it how complicated being raped can be and that such a service is a big help.

  5. Te Reo Putake 5
    16 October 2012 at 6:59 am

    I’ve decided that the Mixed Ownership Model is actually quite sensible. Today, I will be mainly lobbying my local Nat MP to extend the model to Telecom, TelstraClear, Vodafone and SkyTV. Tommorow, I’ll be moving on to convincing my MP to MOM the oil companies bobbing around the Taranaki coast and the gold companies in the Coromandel. Later in the week I hope to convince the MP to MOM all the housing stock in Parnell, because its important to lead from the top. Pip Pip!

    • RedBaron 5.1
      16 October 2012 at 8:08 am

      And I’m all for extending PPP Public private partnerships. Now how about the govt signs a contract with the Teacher’s Union for the provision of teaching services in schools. Big penalty clauses if the schools are removed! I’m sure there are other groups that will sign up to run services.

  6. Lou 6
    16 October 2012 at 7:58 am

    Jeez, I just hope that the same people fixing the teachers pay database ain’t gonna have a go at fixing WINZ database. And apparently WINZ tell beneficaries and child support customers that their computer talks to IRD computer – should that make us all a little uneasy? And what about this ‘white paper’ doesn’t it advocate that health, welfare and other databases talk to each other – hey I know, lets just go back to the town cryer concept, much cheaper and just as effective apparently as all these big brother databases ‘communicating’ with each other?????

    As a health worker I had to study the Privacy Act for 3 years, sometimes I wonder whether some of the politicians understand the laws and acts that they employ other people to govern or adhere to. I just heard John Keys say on TV3 to Rachel “we’ll have a LITTLE look at that” he was talking about checking out the apparent security breach. Now thats certainly ‘downplaying’ speak. I fear AsleepWhileWorking could be right.

    John Key is such a f*^#w*t

    • weka 6.1
      16 October 2012 at 8:48 am

      WINZ also data match with Customs so that they can catch beneficiaries who go overseas and stay long than they are allowed. I think they just do random sampling as they don’t get everybody. Thinking about it now though, I wonder how they do that…
       
      Matching up health, welfare and the records of children isn’t about addressing poverty. It’s about controlling poor people. I don’t know why they don’t just chip ’em and be done with it.

      • Rogue Trooper 6.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 1:42 pm

        Interesting; now I do not mean to get all apocalyptic, it is just that a man I encourage study with asked about this, this morning; It is helpful to bear in Mind, considering it was a “vision” approximately 2000 years ago;

        He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and Slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 3: 16- obviously)

        Now, the study notes I had at the time identified the economic system; Interesting.
        Now, the notes I have in front of me at present, speak of allegiance to the Imperial cult; Now, none of this is new, nothing new under the sun etc, However, there is certainly One spirit directing everything I seem to encounter; Careful what you wish for? I wish I did not see, as I am sure Millions of others do, not with standing the earth has been through these pains before, but It makes you wonder. This still may take decades or centuries to play out, nobody “Knows the Mind of God”,
        Yet, still interesting, none-the-less.

        So, Concerning Light and Darkness, here is a Mazda Wonder Light,
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorastrian

        Here, are some writings most churches hide,
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Gospels

        The Gospel of Thomas, is Liberating
        http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

        Why Sabbath are so appealing

        (only One Sabbath, all others, wannabees, imo)

        The rest? Remains to be seen!

        Prophecy is The Ultimate Weapon; Bring on The Prophetess

    • David H 6.2
      16 October 2012 at 9:49 am

      Yes Key’s reaction to the whole thing seemed to be blase. You know the computer system is old Yeah right. Just lay the blame where ever. A classic Not Me. If I ever saw one.

    • Vicky32 6.3
      16 October 2012 at 7:13 pm

      And apparently WINZ tell beneficaries and child support customers that their computer talks to IRD computer – should that make us all a little uneasy?

      It does, every time you phone! (Beware, it says, if you earn and don’t tell us, we’ll get you!)

  7. Rogue Trooper 7
    16 October 2012 at 8:33 am

    joining the Battle-fleet Captain
    (I like It)
    this is my body, I share for you
    🙂

  8. Jackal 8
    16 October 2012 at 11:32 am

    Heads should roll

    They’re so focused on downplaying the issue that it appears they think WINZ clients don’t have any rights to privacy at all…

    • weka 8.1
      16 October 2012 at 5:54 pm

      Jeeze, that Herald article you link to is a nasty piece of work. Fuck the MSM and their apology of a profession.

      • marty mars 8.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 6:15 pm

        + 1 Good stuff Jackal.

        from that NZH thingy you mentioned weka

        On planeitKey you can say what you like about people

        “Obviously it would’ve been better if the individual involved had actually told the government and not tried to charge the government some sort of fee. But he didn’t, and goodness knows what he did with the blogger, I don’t know if he gave it [the information] to him or sold it to him.”

        Ira explains exactly that he was not charging a fee

        “I called up on Monday 8th October to say there was a security leak and ask who to talk to. And I also asked was there an incentives scheme about security flaws, which is what Google and Facebook do.”

        key knows all about fees – it’s the honey

  9. David H 9
    16 October 2012 at 11:33 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10840124

    Live chat with Stephen Jacobi at 12.00 today go ask him some questions on the TPP and other underhanded American practices, lets make him feel right at home lol.

  10. deuto 10
    16 October 2012 at 12:23 pm

    The start and Question Time in Parliament is Must View time for me, at least. Could be very interesting with everything going on at present.

    First, presumably, Key will ask to make a personal statement to “correct” his previous answers on KDC and the GCSB.

    Then questions cover:

    Questions to Ministers
    1.DAVID SHEARER to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements in relation to Kim Dotcom and the inquiry into the actions of the Government Communications Security Bureau?

    2.METIRIA TUREI to the Minister for Social Development: Does she have confidence that the Ministry of Social Development can keep private information it holds confidential?

    4.JACINDA ARDERN to the Minister for Social Development: Has the Ministry of Social Development competently managed the private information in its charge?

    6.CHRIS HIPKINS to the Minister of Education: What specific criteria were used to determine whether a school in Christchurch was identified for restoration, consolidation or rejuvenation?

    7.Dr RUSSEL NORMAN to the Minister responsible for the GCSB: What were the dates of the three cases that the Government Communications Security Bureau audit highlighted, because they could not assure him “that the legal position is totally clear”, as referred to in his statement of 3 October 2012?

    8.Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his answer to my Question for Written Answer 3326 (2012)?

    11.GRANT ROBERTSON to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in Hon John Banks; if so, why?

    Re Q8, Peters’ written question 3326 (2012) and the response are:

    3326 (2012). Rt Hon Winston Peters to the Prime Minister (07 May 2012): Did he have any meetings, in his capacity as Prime Minister, with either Hon Maurice Williamson or Hon Simon Power during the period 7 April-23 July; if so, on what date or dates and what was the nature of the discussion or discussions?
    Rt Hon John Key (Prime Minister) replied: Yes. I met with Hon Maurice Williamson on 7 June 2011 to talk about statistics and progress with the census in lights of its postponement following the Christchurch earthquake. I met with Hon Simon Power on 13 June 2011. There is no record of what was discussed at that meeting and I have no recollection of the discussion. I also met with him, Hons English, Joyce and Ryall and the external appointees regarding the Better Public Services Advisory & Governance Group on 6 July 2011.

    From memory (may be wrong), this period covers the aboutface on KDC’s application to purchase the Crisco Mansion in Coatsville – and Key’s trip to Washington DC via Warner Bros in LA.

    • Jim Nald 10.1
      16 October 2012 at 12:42 pm

      “There is no record of what was discussed at that meeting and I have no recollection of the discussion.”

      On Planet Key, we need to understand and sympathise with John Key that truth, competence and accountability are “in a dynamic environment”.*

      Convenient memory loss, selective self-characterised ignorance, resistance to reading reports, heaping blame on others, and lack of documentation/record are noble virtues and ethical practices to be instilled in asspirants 🙂

      *Guyon Espiner: Is it okay for politicians to bend the truth?
      John Key: Well, we live in a dynamic environment, so of course things change.

      • Dr Terry 10.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 5:12 pm

        Thanks Jim. An example of typical evasion. How are we meant to interpret that reply?!

    • Rogue Trooper 10.2
      16 October 2012 at 1:08 pm

      A Political Cluster-Bomb should about do It

    • Enough is Enough 10.3
      16 October 2012 at 3:11 pm

      That was BRILLIANT.

      Key was shown up to be so hopeless. His party wan’t even backing him up.

  11. captain hook 11
    16 October 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Big whinge in the Dompost this morning because David Shearer called tod niall (what sort of name is todd) and larry williams by their surnames.
    boo bloody hoo.
    who do they think they are?

    • Acting Up 11.1
      17 October 2012 at 12:06 am

      Todd Niall – good (PSA) union member and delegate, and thoroughly good bloke. Also wrote a book about the homegrown NZ car, the Trekka. One of the best guys in the MSM.

  12. TheContrarian 12
    16 October 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Parliament has been in session 2 minutes and someone has already shouted something about God from the public section and Winston and Trevor Mallard (Pretty sure it was him) have been asked to leave the chamber.

    Should be an interesting session

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    16 October 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Time for Crucifixion for bnnt the sacrificial lamb
    (play with the “big boys”? )
    (“operational matter” this! )

  14. joe90 14
    16 October 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Opinion from NYT: The Self-Destruction of the 1 Percent.

    The story of Venice’s rise and fall is told by the scholars Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson, in their book “Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty,” as an illustration of their thesis that what separates successful states from failed ones is whether their governing institutions are inclusive or extractive. Extractive states are controlled by ruling elites whose objective is to extract as much wealth as they can from the rest of society. Inclusive states give everyone access to economic opportunity; often, greater inclusiveness creates more prosperity, which creates an incentive for ever greater inclusiveness.

    • Bill 14.1
      16 October 2012 at 4:54 pm

      That’s a kind of strange piece. Essentially then, there is no systemic problem with capitalism/markets. All that’s wrong (and therefore fixable) is a selfish short sightedness on the part of a tiny ruling elite.

      I mean, you gotta laugh at some of the claims

      The history of the United States can be read as one such virtuous (inclusiveness creates more prosperity) circle.

      Yup. Unless you were and/or are indigenous, black, female, Irish, Latino…..and so on right on down or up to the point where you hit the white male protestant where the borders of the virtuous circle of inclusiveness were historically set.

      And as an aside I don’t get the reference to Venice and its shrinking population being made (as though that’sa mark of decline) with absolutely no reference to the Black Death or, with refernce to later centuries, the city’s unique character/location. But hey.

      edit. That comment was a response to Joe90’s comment and link….but the entire comment be gone now. Oh well.

      • Rogue Trooper 14.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 5:26 pm

        I Like It
        🙂 (open-minded)
        those hispanics be giving the WASP’s a serve shortly though; that’s demographics for ya

        No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs-John Lydon
        (I could be wrong, …I could be right…may the road rise with you)
        Next

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.2
        16 October 2012 at 10:09 pm

        That’s a kind of strange piece.

        Yeah, it’s all Capitalism is great until the capitalists take over and then it’s fucked but it’s still great. Certainly made a hell of a lot of assumptions that bear no resemblance to reality.

  15. Rogue Trooper 15
    16 October 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Scroll through this;
    National appear worn and worried and no second Act

    Bnnt admits, she needs to revisit her past

    Betrayal (Williamson quoting Zeppelin, well I be f#ck$d) Remember Rohm?

    no amount of pastel can soften the piranha
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_management
    you don’t impress me

    MIKE BEHRENS for SUPREME JUSTICE (God bless you Mike) now there is a discerning and merciful Judge.

    Key; certainly lost his rag / doll

    Go Metiria

    Click to access IncomeTaxUniversalisationofInworkTaxCreditAmendmen.pdf


    Yet Dunny wants to flush it??

    Now this Open Adoption Movement, about freakin Time (read some developmental psychology)

    Keys Jokes are just not funny anymore, if they ever were, to more than sycophants.

    (now, Pinot Noir (wee anasthetic) and Mainland Tasty ARE something decent we produce)

  16. Penny Bright 16
    16 October 2012 at 6:54 pm

    HONE HARAWIRA AUCKLAND DISTRICT COURT (ALBERT ST) APPEARANCE WEDNESDAY 17 OCTOBER 2012 9AM (?)

    “Supporters meet outside Auckland District Court at at 8.45am Hone Harawira and others with serious injuries from the protest will be there. Get there if you can…” message from John Minto)

    Hone Harawira gets arrested by Police for a purported minor traffic offence – but Police do NOTHING against the Leader of the ACT Party – MP for Epsom John Banks for alleged electoral fraud and ‘white collar’ crime? I’ll be there! Join us if you believe in ONE LAW FOR ALL? And if you oppose ‘ECONOMIC APARTHEID’ and ‘WAR ON THE POOR’?

    WEDNESDAY 17 OCTOBER 2012 – AUCKLAND DISTRICT COURT
    ALBERT ST AUCKLAND CITY:

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    • PlanetOrphan 16.1
      16 October 2012 at 7:05 pm

      Well said Penny 🙂

    • TheContrarian 16.2
      16 October 2012 at 7:07 pm

      “but Police do NOTHING against the Leader of the ACT Party”

      They couldn’t (though I wish they could).

      • Penny Bright 16.2.1
        16 October 2012 at 7:15 pm

        CRAP.

        Police could have charged former fellow Directors of Huljich Wealth Management (NZ) Ltd John Banks (and Don Brash) under s.58(3) of the Securities Act for signing Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 which contained untrue statements.

        http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1978/0103/latest/DLM29406.html

        ONE LAW FOR ALL?

        How come Peter Huljich was the only one of those 3 Directors who was charged for a STRICT LIABILITY offence?

        Corrupt political protection?

        For background details – check out http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz and http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

        Penny Bright
        ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

        • TheContrarian 16.2.1.1
          16 October 2012 at 7:20 pm

          I assumed you meant the the recent donations scandals which the police couldn’t prosecute.

          I’d be more than happy to review any evidence you have of Banks wrong doing in the Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme. I don’t know enough about it to make any call of wrong doing so if you could provide me with some evidence of impropriety I would like to see it.

          • Penny Bright 16.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2012 at 7:36 pm

            I’ve given you the links for this information.

            However – it may require you to do a little work and READ this information?

            Please bear in mind that it takes a LOT longer to research and write up this information than it does to read it?

            Happy homework 🙂

            For background details – check out http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz and http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

            Penny Bright

            • TheContrarian 16.2.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2012 at 7:40 pm

              This is called ‘elephant hurling’, where in you direct the person asking the question to massive volumes of your own data.

              Specifically I am wondering about the links you used to draw your conclusions, not links to your own conclusion.

              • Penny Bright …
                16 October 2012 at 7:45 pm

                Sure you’re not just being lazy?

                🙂

                You could always try reading the above-mentioned Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 – which I’ve taken the trouble to make available for public perusal?

                Hardly ‘my’ data?

                Kind regards,

                Penny Bright

                • TheContrarian …
                  16 October 2012 at 7:55 pm

                  No it’s called elephant hurling.

                  But all my reading has uncovered so far is that there is not enough evidence to proceed with charges against either Brash or Banks. This is no way a testament to their character on my part, I am merely trying to establish what evidence you have that charges should have been forthcoming and/or the police/judiciary somehow acted with impropriety.

                  “I don’t like them” or “They were obviously guilty” aren’t good enough, I’m afraid. Only evidence will work. This is in no way a defence of Banks mind you, I dislike him quite strongly.

                  • Jackal …
                    16 October 2012 at 11:12 pm

                    TheComedian

                    But all my reading has uncovered so far is that there is not enough evidence to proceed with charges against either Brash or Banks.

                    That’s meant to be a joke… Right? The relevant law that you have obviously not bothered to read states:

                    58 Criminal liability for misstatement in advertisement or registered prospectus

                    (1)Subject to subsection (2), where an advertisement that includes any untrue statement is distributed,—
                    (a)the issuer of the securities referred to in the advertisement, if an individual; or
                    (b)if the issuer of the securities is a body, every director thereof at the time the advertisement is distributed – commits an offence.

                    I hope that wasn’t too much reading for your delicate sensibilities TC. We wouldn’t want you to strain yourself and do an injury. You wouldn’t be such an effective apologist for old corrupt bastards then eh!

  17. Logie97 17
    16 October 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Apparently he can now remember the presence of a video camera, but he cannot remember the, more important, contents of a presentation.

    Somewhere in the mix he has stated he remembered being advised that the presentation would not be recorded, yet those same charges have done a “full” review of the period in question (having said previously that it wouldn’t be recorded???) Confused Mmmmm – selective memory.

    • PlanetOrphan 17.1
      16 October 2012 at 7:06 pm

      John Key ordered the investigation, he’s culpible no one else.

    • Treetop 17.2
      16 October 2012 at 8:42 pm

      Late Edition last night RNZ, if any recording turns up of Key on February 29 2012 in the GCSB cafeteria it does not get destroyed, it gets archived.

      I reckon the archives would be the first place to visit.

      Is it permissible for Key to have any information destroyed held by the GCSB?

      • PlanetOrphan 17.2.1
        16 October 2012 at 8:46 pm

        Not permissable no, not even in accordance with Information Tracking Procedures either.
        They keep everything, that’s how it works.

        • Treetop 17.2.1.1
          16 October 2012 at 9:10 pm

          I am sure anything prior to 19 January 2012 regarding Key discussing Dotcom will have a very secure archive.

          When people like Sir Jeffery Palmer come out and say what the relationship between the PM and the GCSB is like, in a heart beat I am not fooled.

          Can I prove it? No.

          Does this make me wrong? No

          When it comes to probability did Key know about Dotcom prior to 19 January 2012? Yes

    • blue leopard 17.3
      16 October 2012 at 8:43 pm

      Yes, it appears all very odd to set up a camera and not record…I believe they said there was a camera on a tripod set up….

  18. Draco T Bastard 18
    16 October 2012 at 7:11 pm

    A Sustainable Energy Future For NZ (without the hot air) – An Update

    To this end, we have used a similar approach to look at two questions:

    Can New Zealand maintain its current per capita energy consumption without fossil fuels and, in particular, can we live on renewable energy sources alone?
    How can we achieve a BIG reduction in our personal and national energy consumption, in order to reduce our power requirements?

    Well, at least somebody is asking the right questions. Pity it’s not the government.

  19. Rogue Trooper 19
    16 October 2012 at 7:32 pm

    Pop-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_(psychology)
    Next? (I am just being n0rty now)
    🙂
    (he’s not the messiah, he’s just a naughty boy)
    🙂

    • PlanetOrphan 19.1
      16 October 2012 at 7:36 pm

      Johny Sparkles defined by Wikipedia, Who’d a thought?

      They always get a “Glow on” when Freud is mentioned

      I propose a new Thesis ….
      “The Power of Vacuum” a study of Johny Sparkles 🙂

      • Rogue Trooper 19.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 8:02 pm

        Power fills a vacuum
        🙂
        (and not “personal power” either; collective power)

        • PlanetOrphan 19.1.1.1
          16 October 2012 at 8:24 pm

          Pride b4 fall, or bloated explosion with apology?
          Vacuum far outweighs everything else in this Universe.
          No one else is gonna call it yet, I’m going with Landslide Labour/Greens/Mana/NZFirst myself.

    • ianmac 19.2
      16 October 2012 at 8:15 pm

      Not me. Don’t know. It is Shearer’s fault. It is Ira’s fault. Not my job to oversee Spy agencies. Don’t know what Projection means and don’t want to know.

  20. Jenny 20
    16 October 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Lies within lies, on top of lies. Lies flanked and protected by lies. Lies about lying, lies about spying.

    John Banks publicly stated that he had “nothing to fear, nothing to hide,” over the donations scandal.

    Nothing to fear?

    Nothing to hide?

    As it turns out, John Banks did fear something, and in contrast to his public assertion that he had nothing to hide, asked the police to keep their investigation into his Mayoral donations hidden from the public.

    ACT leader John Banks did ask police not to publicly release his statement on the Kim Dotcom donations and opposed the publication of the entire file, documents reveal.

    Fairfax NZ News

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7822867/Banks-fought-Dotcom-file-release

    John Key said he would have no confidence in John Banks as Minister if he found he had lied to him.

    Now that solid proof has come out that Banks lied in claiming that he didn’t ask the police to suppress evidence arising from the police investigation into his mayoral campaign donations.

    Will John Key act on his promise in relation to John Banks as a Minister?

    Or was that a lie?

    Is John Banks lying about donations from Dotcom?

    Is John Key lying about everything to do with Kim Dotcom, relating to the GCSB illegal spying?

    Without a doubt John Banks is a proven liar.

    But is the Prime Minister a liar?

    Time will tell. If after this latest revelation John Key keeps John Banks as a Minister in his government.

    • Anne 20.1
      16 October 2012 at 7:54 pm

      Is John Banks lying about donations from Dotcom? Yes!

      Is John Key lying about everything to do with Kim Dotcom, relating to the GCSB illegal spying? Yes!

      And the reason they’re both lying through their teeth is because both have so much more to hide.

      Apart from the fact Key still needs Banks’ vote etc., he will keep Banks as a Minister in his government because Banksie knows where the bodies are buried.

  21. Rogue Trooper 21
    16 October 2012 at 7:51 pm

    India Inc.
    http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/in-india-gm-crops-come-at-a-high-price/?

    and while ” we “are all being so popularly precious about Gender in the West
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1015/breaking56.html?
    (pray for the young girl shot in the head)

    Why do you not take your “whine” some place else?

  22. starlight 22
    16 October 2012 at 8:02 pm

    ‘What the hell was that’ ‘I want to see all you children in my office next school day’

    Supposedly intelligent,articulate,bright (debateable) set of parliament ministers,pm and
    the speaker launch into what could be described as a ‘free for all ‘ forget the fists,
    words will do,a scene of total disobediance.

    But hey, shonkey did admit he talked dotcom at the feb 29th meeting,phew, now
    we wait and see if there are any dates earlier than 29th feb……….

  23. Ad 23
    16 October 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Maybe Shearer should stay leader: the ‘tape’ story is getting obliterated by the MSD story, which is then bleeding into a wider data-trust narrative.

    Labour needs a leader who can fuck up, AND be lucky. Yes?

  24. Paul 24
    16 October 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Stuff is running a poll asking ‘How is the Government doing?’
    On this link
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7822867/Banks-fought-Dotcom-file-release
    Presently
    22.5% well
    73 % not well
    4.5 % don’t care
    Feel free to add your vote…………

  25. ianmac 25
    16 October 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Anyone know what the fracas at the beginning of Question Time was all about. Two ordered out of House. Trevor chose to walk out.Something about the PM- letter about PM sent by Winston to the Leader- issue before the Parliamentary or Privileges Committee- Key’s response received yesterday. What the!!!!
    Anyone?

    • Paul 25.1
      16 October 2012 at 8:25 pm

      Wasn’t is something to do with some letters??
      I don’t know either, but it was obviously something of some importance.as Winston was prepared to lose his question for it.

      • ianmac 25.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 8:37 pm

        The letter to the Speaker was sent on the 5 October(?) and again 15 October(?) and concerned John Key and maybe the Privileges Committee. If my half heard version is so, then the irony is obvious. Key having Peters in front of Priv Committee in 08. What if Peters now has Key up before the Priv Committee???? Forgive me. Probably got it wrong.

    • Anne 25.2
      16 October 2012 at 8:49 pm

      Here is the start of Question time:

      http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/15472

      It was something to do with Key’s personal statement. It seems he got up to make it without first asking for a ‘point of order’. God knows why Winnie et al got their knickers in a twist. Some nuance of which I’m not familiar.

      I think Winston Peters has sent a letter to the Speaker accusing John Key of a breach of parliamentary privilege. Lockwood Smith has yet to rule on whether there is a case to be answered. We all know what the answer will probably be.

      • PlanetOrphan 25.2.1
        16 October 2012 at 9:02 pm

        Key never spoke a word , the speaker spoke the words “point of order” for him.
        Engineered denial …… Go Winston Peters and Others!

      • ianmac 25.2.2
        16 October 2012 at 9:27 pm

        I think that there are rules to be followed. Can’t be a majority decision of the House otherwise no charge could ever be laid against the Government. Watch this space!

    • mickysavage 25.3
      16 October 2012 at 8:50 pm

      They wanted to raise a point of order and Key wanted to make a personal information.  Points of order trump everything else and should have been considered first.

      • OneTrack 25.3.1
        16 October 2012 at 8:59 pm

        They were just playing stupid political games for no apparent reason. Most people grow out of that when they get to college.

        • felix 25.3.1.1
          16 October 2012 at 9:18 pm

          Wrong. They were calling for points of order, and as micky says they should have been acknowledged immediately.

          What Lockwood allowed Key to do there was disgraceful and a gross insult to the entire house, and by extension to all of New Zealand.

          If you knew anything about parliament you wouldn’t need this explained to you. Lockwood knew he was wrong too, that’s why his voice was breaking.

          • Jim Nald 25.3.1.1.1
            16 October 2012 at 9:42 pm

            Yes, disgraceful.
            It is starting to feel like the government is close to breaking point.

          • Anne 25.3.1.1.2
            16 October 2012 at 9:44 pm

            Thanks for that felix. I think I see what happened now. After the House stood and clapped for the Cook Island Speaker, everyone sat down with the exception of John Key who remained standing and started to launch into his personal statement without going through established protocol as set down by the House rules (Standing Orders) and without so much as a bat of an eyelid from the Speaker.

            Pre-arranged? I expect so. Disgraceful and totally underhand!

      • starlight 25.3.2
        16 October 2012 at 9:44 pm

        @micky, Isn’t it usual for the politicians to ask for leave of the house to make a personal
        statement, in such circumstances and lockwood does protects the right too often.
        There should be an independant speaker,outside of any political party,perhaps
        a retired judge etc.

    • starlight 25.4
      16 October 2012 at 8:51 pm

      @ianmac, It was bleedin hard to tell really,it wasn’t what i got my coffee and a chocky biky for,key said he talked kim on the 29th feb,it all happened so quick even the mic couldn’t keep up.

  26. captain hook 26
    16 October 2012 at 9:11 pm

    this government just wants to make it up as it goes along.
    they dont believe in government anyway.

  27. Logie97 27
    16 October 2012 at 9:29 pm

    Has anyone asked this question?

    When was the PM approached by the US authorities (channels of US administration) to request /advise him that an operation was desirable in New Zealand? At what level and at which meeting in the year(s) prior to the raid in February 2012 did the US departments approach the PM of New Zealand?

    If nothing else, it beggars belief that the leader of a friendly sovereign state would not be approached by a very high level delegation prior to their operatives working in that foreign state.

    Just trying to imagine similar circumstances in other “friendly” nations of the world?
    Australia, Canada, Great Britain, France, South Africa, Germany … Sweden, mmmmmmm, nah.

    Ah, yes … it was during the heady days of the appearance on the Letterman Show. No wonder he forgot.

    • OneTrack 27.1
      16 October 2012 at 9:38 pm

      It was no doubt a standard request under the extradition treaty NZ has with the US. The PM would not need to be involved although he may have been advised as a matter of courtesy.

      Is this a treaty we should ignore? Are there other treaties we can ignore?

      • PlanetOrphan 27.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 9:45 pm

        Whilst it’s true a standard request would have been investigated and dismissed once residency was attained, they arrested him anyway …… why would they do that buddy???

        • Treetop 27.1.1.1
          16 October 2012 at 9:52 pm

          The goal was reached when Megaupload was closed down. The US are not interested in side show Key, keystone cops and are probably laughing at the GCSB/SIS for being so gullible.

          • PlanetOrphan 27.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2012 at 9:56 pm

            They obviously have a “Debt Recovery” mentality/agenda.
            For some reason they think a “Difference Caching” engine is grounds for “Informed copyright Infringement”
            Which ultimately means because Megaupload cranked the time to live on those files upto 100 years, (Which most ISP’s will do to save backbone data), has made them a target of the US law enforcement trying to recover “Missing Transactions” for “Projected” film sales.

        • OneTrack 27.1.1.2
          16 October 2012 at 10:13 pm

          What? dotCom having residency has nothing to do with whether he is able to be extradited or not. Otherwise it would already all be over. But DotCom does still have to go and argue his case as to why he shouldn’t be extradited. And he might not win.

          • Logie97 27.1.1.2.1
            16 October 2012 at 11:02 pm

            Yeah, but these were US officers operating in a friendly state. Not just NZ officers executing an arrest and extradition. That would surely involve keeping the PM informed.

  28. QoT 28
    16 October 2012 at 9:59 pm

    So, Southland anti-choicers have decided to “name and shame” abortion providers. I had a little play with the idea of naming and shaming other medical providers, and came up with #namethedentists.

    • OneTrack 28.1
      16 October 2012 at 10:25 pm

      How about name and shame the anti-choicers?

      • QoT 28.1.1
        16 October 2012 at 10:37 pm

        That would only work if there were widespread societal stigma against being moralising wankers who try to endanger people’s health so they can feed their superiority complexes.

        • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1.1
          17 October 2012 at 1:19 am

          Actually, it would only work if the moralising wankers could be made to feel shame about being moralising wankers. I doubt that this is possible.

        • kiwi_prometheus 28.1.1.2
          17 October 2012 at 2:17 am

          Funny how you shriek about Rights! Rights! Rights! for gay ‘marriage’. Wax lyrical about “My Love Rights!”

          Then kill off an unborn child because it’s “inconvenient for my career”.

          • Colonial Viper 28.1.1.2.1
            17 October 2012 at 2:21 am

            or because you were raped by your father.

            • kiwi_prometheus 28.1.1.2.1.1
              17 October 2012 at 2:37 am

              Extreme example there, but thats ok, I’m not against abortion in certain situations. Just not interested in that gender bigot feminist extremism that wants abortion on demand.

              • QoT …
                17 October 2012 at 5:14 pm

                So, just to be clear, there’s not actually a moral issue with “killing off an unborn child” as long as you, k_p, think the circumstances warrant it?

    • Rogue Trooper 28.2
      17 October 2012 at 9:28 am

      😉

  29. Draco T Bastard 29
    16 October 2012 at 10:42 pm

    And now Banks has been proven to be lying while a minister.

    At the time Mr Banks claimed it was the Police who had made that decision.

    Mr Banks said it was the police who decided keep his statement under wraps. Press secretary Shelley Mackey said: “Mr Banks is not responsible for what the police have released.”

    We asked for all the correspondence between Mr Banks and the Police on the release of the report, and lo and behold we found a letter from Mr Banks’ lawyer that said

    Accordingly, disclosure of any material relating to Mr Banks, or indeed any part of the investigation file, is opposed.

    More lies, half-truths and obfuscations from John Banks. He has gone to great lengths to ensure that New Zealanders can not read what he told the Police about the donations to his Mayoral campaign.

    So, will Key hold Banks to account? Na, of course not.

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