Open mike 17/02/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, February 17th, 2019 - 182 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

182 comments on “Open mike 17/02/2019”

  1. reason 1

    To understand Venezuela you have to understand the usa …… and its foreign policy actions post world war two .

    As summed up by Martin Luther King …. “My country is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world”

    Here in NZ wayne map and the Nats still have the guts to stick with war criminals … such is their lack of remorse for the blood and suffering of children they got us involved with last time.

    They care as much for democracy in Venezuela as they did in Libya …

    Nelson Mandela, who the usa regarded as a terrorist, could be talking about Venezuela and the u.s Govt with his timeless and moral truths ….” But the amorality which decrees that might is right can not be the basis on which the world conducts itself in the next century.” … “our view that talking to one another and searching for peaceful solutions remain the surest way to resolve differences and advance peace and progress in the world.”

    And in a sad ironic echo of history …another moral man is ignored as the war criminals set out to destroy another modern socialist state ….

    Hugo Chavez ….”I hope we can create a commission that goes to Libya to talk with the government and the opposition leaders,” he said. “We want a peaceful solution … We support peace in the Arab world and in the whole world.”

    Without giving further details of the proposed mediation mission, Chavez said it was better to seek “a political solution instead of sending marines to Libya, and better to send a good will mission than for the killing to continue”.

    Wayne Mapp, Judith Collins, Key etc should be ashamed ….. We know they can feign remorse ….but shame is not in a vicious wardogs nature.

    • cleangreen 1.1

      Reason 100%.

      I have been to Venezuela, and they left me with such a lovely feeling as they were so warm and caring people, I vowed to want to go back again one day.

      They were like NZ was back during the 1950”s when we had a caring society during the ” Egalitarian” period, when everyone had a share of the ‘NZ common wealth’.

    • WeTheBleeple 1.2

      Oh my that is priceless. The look on the guys face as she first begins to challenge him – incredulous. ‘Who let the dark person in here, who let the women in here, where’s her greencard, can’t we just kill her already’. Then terror, bluster, anger, hahaha.

      An extreme shit stain of a man. Trumps finest.

  2. Bruce 2

    the solutions been around for a while,

  3. Kat 3

    The relentless wedging of the coalition, maligning Winston Peters and ramping up the “Choyna” scene continues with more drivel from HDPA in the Herald this morning. Nationals plan to “Wound Winston” by constant repetitive negativity via its poodles in the media is obvious but will it work. In the long run I doubt it. National with these types of not so subtle plans have a habit of backfiring.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12204048

    • cleangreen 3.1

      Kat,

      This is another round of “dirty politics 2″ again from the Cameron Slater” stable no doubt.

      I am now doubting the story that Slater ever had a stroke now.

      National are seriously bad dudes. Maybe ‘Mark Mitchell’ is behind it to also too as a paid assassin he was before?i

      • Rapunzel 3.1.1

        Funny that has now crossed my mind too.

        • cleangreen 3.1.1.1

          Remember what Winston warned us of when he joined Labour?

          https://www.rt.com/op-ed/446800-global-crisis-economy-financial/

          Global debt hits all-time high of $184,000,000,000,000
          In the US, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, Facebook, Apple and Amazon have cornered two thirds of the global stock market returns so far this year. In no way is that sustainable.

          China’s economy has begun to slow and Europe’s biggest economy, Germany, has gone into reverse. After the boost to the US economy when President Trump slashed taxes for the rich, economic growth in the US is expected to slow down next year to 1.9 percent next year.

          Americans are nervous which means they are buying less and saving more. This has led the IMF to warn of the negative impact of the US economy on the rest of the world.

          The simple fact is that you do not sustain economic recovery based on increasing levels of debt. We are now back to the same volatile situation we were before the 2008 crisis. Governments around the world have failed to reform the system with President Obama doing nothing to change America’s dodgy markets through his eight years in office.

          • WeTheBleeple 3.1.1.1.1

            I did a brief of the growth model in ‘How to get there’ today. Hopefully it’ll sink in for a few more as we drag reality kicking and screaming out of the closet he was thrust into back in the 60’s.

      • Kat 3.1.2

        Cleangreen, the editorial of the herald is unequivocally National biased as it always has been with only a smattering of articles that could be regarded as favourable to the centre left. John Armstrong, Fran O’Sullivan, Audrey Young, Mike Hoskings, HDPA, Barry Soper, Hawkesby et al are National poodles, or sycophants if you think that description is a better fit. They are right leaning and accept payment for writing opinion pieces that are pro National and this coordinated effort that began last year is ramping up.

        National know they are up against it with Jacinda Ardern so the tactics are to run continuing articles that create uncertainty about the coalition especially Winston Peters in the minds of readers. I don’t really think this “death by a thousand cuts” campaign has anything to do with Cameron Slater even though it was a Whale Oil strategy during Dirty Politics One. I don’t consider Slater has the capacity to influence the herald in 2019. The herald may have got the idea from Slater though, they certainly got a lot of content ideas from the Daily Mail UK!

      • Cinny 3.1.3

        CG…. “National are seriously bad dudes. Maybe ‘Mark Mitchell’ is behind it to also too as a paid assassin he was before?i”

        Oh fuck yes i bet he is. Noticed yesterday in the herald, an article about mitchell going to Hong Kong.

        Dirty nat’s sowing seeds of misinformation about China and NZ relationship during the week.

        Then hello in the weekend… a bit of media suggesting mitchell has no problem going to Hong Kong.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12204285

        • Anne 3.1.3.1

          Dirty nat’s sowing seeds of misinformation about China and NZ relationship during the week.

          Yes, and assisting the local Chinese news outlets to spread rumour and innuendo knowing it would end up in the country’s general outlets. Not the first time the local National supporting Chinese newspapers have participated in the Dirty Political game.

          Btw, I’m a supporter of the rest of our new Chinese community, most of whom have proved to be exemplary citizens.

      • mary_a 3.1.4

        100% agree with you there Cleangreen (3.1)

        Re Slater … From what I have read, the judgement was in October 2018, about the time Slater had his first stroke! Before or after that judgement was made, I’m not sure.

        Re Mitchell … still a mercenary, only a political one this time, acting on behalf of Natz!

        • Pete George 3.1.4.1

          The judgment is dated 26 October 2018.

          The last post by ‘Cameron Slater’ was on October 30, 2018 at 10:05am – there were five posts that morning under his name (possibly scheduled).

          The third last post October 30, 2018 at 9:00 am linked to an RNZ article ‘The days of treating you as pests are over’ from 4:01 pm on 29 October 2018

          Whale Oil finally advised their readers on 21 January 2019 “In late October Cam… suffered a serious stroke”.

        • cleangreen 3.1.4.2

          Yes indeed Kat Anne,and cindy thanks for the lift.

          We caught the worst scoundrel of all of the last National MP’s when Hooten as an odd accomplice actually blew the whistle on Steven Joyce during a 2014 radio live show with Mark Sainsbury, as Joyce was illegally engaged in a near $100 Million transport contact illegally trying to ram it through his newly constructed agency called MBIE.

          See this and listen to the audio clip about shady Steven Joyce as he also said Brownlee knew what Joyce was up to then.

          it’s all in audio with Mike Williams and mark Sainsbury on the panel with Michelle Boag.

          This was pure corruption at play from National Party tall poppies that we need a royal inquiry into this.

          When Mathew Hooten dropped the corrupt $100 million dollar roading contact deal on the previous National Government Minister of Transport (Steven Joyce) in a radio talk show with Mark Sainsbury -Michele Boag and Mike Williams about that crooked $100 million deal illegally put through MBIE while Steven Joyce was running that agency, it was a master stroke that did actually kill off Steven Joyce’s chances of ever being in Government again.

          So Matthew Hooten is the best there is when the dirty linen needs to come out on display.

          Here was the audio clip in 2014 and after that Joyce was finished and Judith Collins is still alive.

          Listen for yourself. http://www.thepaepae.com/matthew-hootons-assertions-re-the-prime-ministers-office/35076/

          I’ve archived it here too (audio player below) because RadioLIVE only keeps 7 days audio available and I’ve noticed sometimes Mediaworks launders its talkback station’s audio feed when things get … contentious.

          Go to the lower place to listen to the auidio clip as a 31Aug14.mp3 24057464 audio/mpeg then go to the 27minute and 50 seconds stage to hear tjhis explosive part about Corruption by Steven Joyce.

          http://www.thepaepae.com/matthew-hootons-assertions-re-the-prime-ministers-office/35076/

          Matthew Hooton’s assertions re the Prime Minister’s Office
          Posted in 31 August 2014Peter Aranyi9 Comments »
          hooton‘Explosive’ is one of those words that gets kicked around in politics and political reporting to the point where it’s almost lost its meaning.

          But it’s not an exaggeration to describe right wing spin doctor and self-declared National Party loyalist Matthew Hooton‘s performance on RadioLIVE this morning as incendiary. He effectively called Prime Minister John Key ‘dishonest’, said the PM’s office and chief of staff Wayne Eagleson is implicated in the Dirty Tricks scandal (viz. the SIS-Goff-OIA affair) and more, described Jason Ede’s black-ops brigade as ‘acting under orders’.

          And in a fiery exchange, he described former National Party President (and present-day apologist) Michelle Boag as ‘a hack’ with ‘no political views’ who is ‘all about is defending a government that has behaved in ways that [are] literally indefensible and you know it’ …

          Listen for yourself. http://www.thepaepae.com/matthew-hootons-assertions-re-the-prime-ministers-office/35076/

          I’ve archived it here too (audio player below) because RadioLIVE only keeps 7 days audio available and I’ve noticed sometimes Mediaworks launders its talkback station’s audio feed when things get … contentious.

          Go to the lower place to listen to the auidio clip as a 31Aug14.mp3 24057464 audio/mpeg then go to the 27minute and 50 seconds stage to hear tjhis explosive part about Corruption by Steven Joyce.

          Mark Sainsbury hosts ‘Sunday morning’ at RadioLIVE with guests Michelle Boag, Mike Williams, Matthew Hooton & Duncan Garner 31 Aug 2014
          MP3 file

          Listen at the 27mins 50 second mark when Hooten discusses a larde transport contract.

          Matthew says that Brownlee knows about it and then after Michele Boag rubbishes Hooten, saying “Be ore specific” – Hotten then angrily says it was Joyce who was trying to get the contract through illegally.

          Listen for yourself.

          UPDATE: The ‘fiery exchange’ has now been highlighted as a RadioLIVE editor’s audio pick here.

          Available on demand at RadioLIVE.co.nz dial up Sunday 10am.*
          Click to listen at Radio LIVE
          Click to listen at Radio LIVE (archived below)

          * I’ve archived it here too (audio player below) because RadioLIVE only keeps 7 days audio available and I’ve noticed sometimes Mediaworks launders its talkback station’s audio feed when things get … contentious.

          Mark Sainsbury hosts ‘Sunday morning’ at RadioLIVE with guests Michelle Boag, Mike Williams, Matthew Hooton & Duncan Garner 31 Aug 2014
          MP3 file

          – P

          enclosure: http://www.thepaepae.com/wp-uploads/2014/08/Boag-Hooton-Williams-RadioLIVE-Sunday-morning-31Aug14.mp3 24057464 audio/mpeg

  4. Graeme 4

    Did China just tell the national party to pull it’s head in?

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/382667/chinese-foreign-ministry-addresses-nz-china-relationship

    “In a written transcript of the press conference Mr Shuang said he did not comment on remarks by the press and added: “You should know that we, not a Chinese newspaper, represent the official position of the Chinese government.”

    He says he doesn’t think warning notices issued since December, the most recently regarding the Tasman fires, could be interpreted as a warning against Chinese travelling to New Zealand.

    “Those insisting on such an interpretation are evidently either making a big fuss over nothing or harboring ulterior motives,” the transcript quoted him as saying.

    Mr Shuang says China stands ready to work with New Zealand on the basis of mutual, respect, equality, and mutual benefit.

    “On bilateral relations, a China-New Zealand relationship enjoying sound and steady development is in the interest of both countries and peoples.” “

  5. Adrian 5

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Trump is a Russian or Putian plant.
    His current threats to destabilise world trade with sanctions and tariffs is exactly what the Russian kleptocracy want, a weakened Europe.
    How did Trump get to meet and marry two women, one an unheralded model another a middling sportswoman whom at the time got out of their respective countries when pretty much nobody else could ?

  6. greywarshark 7

    I have got the idea that Jim Mora is a lightweight thinker. His introducing 3 minute slots for people talking about their thing of the moment on huis OWWNJM Sunday morning on Radionz seems to confirm. This would be long journalism for many of the chattering classes I suppose.

    He is now playing ‘Please Release Me – and let me go for I don’t love you any more, release me and let me love again. Seems to fit the situation for Mora and Radionz.

    • Gabby 7.1

      He just seems to like little segments with titles. Didn’t RNZ once run a longer version of the same thing on Sundays?

      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        Well Jim M has replaced Wallace Chapman – really the two have swapped. Wallace had Insight – thoughtful 30m? Media Watch – longish, then interviews, reviews. Three minutes is a travesty for a thought or idea to be explained.

        Wallace hopefully will give something better than Mora did in a middle-class echo chamber which sometimes is amusing or silly, but not for a main diet. And there are plenty of people around to provide vapid comments dished out.

        • Gabby 7.1.1.1

          Wallace is pretty resolutely middleclass himself, and struggles to emit coherent sounds.

          • greywarshark 7.1.1.1.1

            Gabby
            You are terse with some descriptions! Wallace is younger than Mora and I think can appeal to younger people with integrity I think. His coherence – pretty good I had thought.

      • veutoviper 7.1.2

        I think they did, Gabby. Re Mora playing ‘Please Release Me ‘etc that was because he was actually interviewing Engelburt Humperdinck who, despite now being 83 is still touring and coming to NZ in early March for three concerts.

        I am not a great fan of Humperdinck but it seemed appropriate to me to play some of his songs. Actually I was quite surprised and enjoyed the interview in a light way and for the discussion on Alzheimer’s. EH’s wife, who he obviously adores, has been hospitalized with it for some years.

        I am also not a great fan of Mora but don’t object to him hosting Sundays as much as I thought I would. I certainly far prefer The Panel now that Wallace Chapman is hosting that!. Becoming quite a lively weekday segments these days – LOL.

    • cleangreen 7.2

      Greywarshark; 100%

      Jim Mora must go as he is useless at fleshing out contentious. issues that we need investigative Journalism at.

      he is just another talk fest and nothing more.

  7. Herodotus 8

    I have read with interest commentary directed at Nation e.g. BBQ’s etc
    “Housing Minister Phil Twyford said it was “clearly sexist”.
    “I would think a lot of people find it offensive.”
    NO Phil what is offensive is that such diversions take away the focus for failing Kiwibuild.
    And how can anyone accept that $650k is affordable??

    Just DO what the Government and you were voted in. You are the govt. National is the opposition. GOVERN !!!

    Build HNZ stock and look after those in need not the middle class -They already have been gifted free Uni education and $50/week increase in student allowances. Funny how Labour keeps its promises to Uni Students but those in real need ….. 😤

    • Sabine 8.1

      because 650.000 house plus land, plus curtains, ugly carpet, wall paper, plus dishwasher, extra windows in places you don’t need them, plus plus plus is affordable in a city with almost two million people that is also the only place in this country were one actually has a chance of finding employment that is full time, all year round, with paid holidays.

      Cause that is Auckland.

      A city of two million people who for some reason still think they are owed a three bedroom, two / three car garage with all the trimmings.

      that is were the failure of kiwi build lies. It builds to big, to pretentious, to ‘wanna be rich’ crap houses.

      A married couple with no kids does not need a house like that. They need at the best a nice little two bedroom one car garage. A retired couple with no kids does also not need a huge house, yet we are still building them.

      And sadly this is were the government fails, it still wants to keep up the pretense that NZ is back in the fifties with 1.5 million people on two islands and lots of emptiness in between.

      If they wanted to do something, they would work on getting investment – business investment – out of AKL and into the region.

      • BM 8.1.1

        that is where the failure of kiwi build lies. It builds to big, too pretentious, to ‘wannabe rich’ crap houses.

        ? KIwiBuild houses are pokey little boxes on handkerchief sized sections.

        • Sabine 8.1.1.1

          dude a three bedroom with a double garage at 100sqm is not small. maybe in your world it is, but everywhere else it is not, considering that most people literally only use these boxes to sleep, as they are too busy working, and life styling.

          And the houses compared to section size are oversized. and a fire risk. there is no way these multiple divided section can be accessed by a fire truck.

          Tauranga, Papamoa have a good look at the developments there,……suicidal and ugly pretentious and ugly.

          • BM 8.1.1.1.1

            And the houses compared to section size are oversized. and a fire risk. there is no way these multiple divided section can be accessed by a fire truck.

            I agree there, houses that should be on a 600 -700 sqm section are now on a 400sqm2 section or less.

            I’d never live in a new suburb, you’re living so close you could probably smell your next door neighbours farts.

            • Sabine 8.1.1.1.1.1

              people live there because there is nowhere else to live. Cause these are the half a million dollar slums that our GJ Garderner and the likes developers build.

              Shitty house, on shitty section, on fire away from a massacre. I don’t live there because they are not save. Not enough exit routes, to many houses sharing a drive way – try to get out of a porperty in papamoa if the tsunami warning goes off ….You better run or cycle

              no the houses should be smaller, two storys, and then the sections fits. Again, you just want big, you don’t want better. there is no reason for single story houses. You can build sturdy, well insulated two / three story houses that are perfectly suitable for families on a much smaller foot print and leave more space for green areas that could be shelter belts, shaded areas, veggie gardens and public spaces.

              and roads that accommodate children and bikes, skates etc and cars. corner shops, swimming pools etc.

              But no, just a gigantic ugly house on five square centimeters of land. dumb and cheap and lazy.

              • BM

                Absolutely, a two storey house would be a far better bet on small sections.

                The problem is it costs far more to build a two-storied house than a single story.

                Foundation and bracing costs, all that scaffolding etc.

                • KJT

                  Actually, no. Two stories is cheaper, for the same floor area, all else being equal.

                  Foundations don’t need to be much stronger. Roof area and loads are less. Bracing loads do not increase at the same rate as height……….
                  Scaffolding is required for almost all standard height houses, anyway.

                • Adrian

                  Not true, two story based on square metres of living space is considerably cheaper. Developers are just lazy and potential owners in NZ have no exposure to multi story living like in Europe.

                • BM

                  Ok, I was going on what a couple of spec builders told me when I asked them why they don’t build two-storey houses, Was a while ago though.

                  Personally, I like two story places.

              • David Mac

                Yep, I agree Sabine.

                20 homes with next to no back yard could surround a 2 acre field. Neighbourhood cricket, soccer and egg and spoon races. We need to get better at looking out for each other. Architecture can trigger community spirit.

                100’s of cities have been dealing with lots of people in tight footprints for 1000’s of years. Bugger all of them are building cookie cutter GJ Gardener joints.

                • BM

                  As long as you don’t end up getting stuck living next door to one of those clingy pain in the arse neighbour types.

                  Just arrived home and 2 seconds later they’re knocking on the door wanting a “chat” or some other needy bullshit.

                  Give me a six foot fence and a moat.

            • Visubversa 8.1.1.1.1.2

              There are legislative requirements for access for emergency vehicles. It is in the Building Act.

          • Craig H 8.1.1.1.2

            Bear in mind that modern dwellings usually have attached garages which are then included in the floor area, so 100m2 + garage is a good size, and would be 120m2 with a single garage or 130m2 with a double (these are minimum sizes, would often be 140m2).

          • cleangreen 8.1.1.1.3

            True that is Sabine 100% we go to that ugly place to lots and have watched as Papamoa is now. Ugly is the right word.

      • Herodotus 8.1.2

        Agreed – no garage either
        Not sure now where you go for a liveable do it up home as a 1st home option in Jafaland ☹️
        Problem that previous generations had was the opportunity to buy their initial 1st and 2nd homes in areas Onehunga, sth east One Tree Hill even Ellerslie etc now these are $1m as the old do it ups are now demolished for intense development that are not “affordable”, of my peers I know no one that ever had a new build as their 1st home.
        also
        e.g. Why does Fonterra have its HO in Auckland ?
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11599627

        • Sabine 8.1.2.1

          and the generations before that hat even less then we have today.

          so what?

          Currently the next generations lives in the garages of their parents becasue they can’t even find a spca approved dog kennel to rent.

          Onehunga is one of the nicest suburbs in akl, and has no reason to be cheap. Its close to town, you don’t need a car, it has got a nice fringe, lovely old villas, etc etc etc.

          You are also paying for the amenities.

          I have mentioned it before, rent/ housing costs should reflect the amenities that are around. You have good business and jobs in Onehunga. You can actually live and work in Onehunga and never leave to go elsewhere.
          Yes, i lived there a long time ago, when well to do white people asked me why i wanted to live there cause only Pacific Islanders wanted to live there, and it was a’ slum’. Time change.

          No tree hill was never cheap. Nor was ellerslie – some parts of it, but generally not cheap. Now avondale was cheap, but then friends of mine sold their house well enough to move to Gisborne and now make a living with Air BnB on more then one house they bought there, i guess its cheap. But then no jobs. go figure.

          Time chance.

          Fact is we need to build smaller, more compact, eco friendly. have a look at the new developments near tauranga and ask WTF? is going on here. No exit roads, tight together, huge houses swallowing tiny sections with no place for planting anything. One fire, and the whole area goes up in flames. Houses are not even build to accommodate solar or such.

          You can not solve a housing crisis which is actually a job crisis. If you want to get a decent paying job that does not involve milking cows or exporting kiwis you will end up in Auckland or Wellington. And pretty much every where else houses are much cheaper, you just won’t have a job to pay the mortgage.

  8. Sabine 9

    anyone linked to this?

    https://www.alternet.org/2019/02/noam-chomsky-those-who-failed-to-recognize-trump-as-the-greater-evil-made-a-bad-mistake/

    “eftist scholar Noam Chomsky has a message for voters who refused to cast their ballots for Hillary Clinton to prevent Donald Trump from winning the White House: You made a “bad mistake.”

    On both moral and practical levels, Chomsky told Al Jazeera‘s Medhi Hasan, the choice was clear.

    “Do you vote against the greater evil if you don’t happen to like the other candidate?” asked Chomsky, who spoke out during the election against Trump’s candidacy—and in fact predicted his rise six years ago. “The answer to that is yes.”

    With an argument similar to the one made by political scientist Adolph Reed prior to the election, Chomsky insists that voters did not have to ignore Clinton’s serious shortcomings in order to recognize Trump as the much more serious threat.

    “I didn’t like Clinton at all, but her positions are much better than Trump’s on every issue I can think of,” the professor emeritus of linguistics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) told Hasan. Chomsky supported Bernie Sanders during the Democratic presidential primary.”

    and that is the thing, a lot of us did not like Hillary Clinton a lot or a little or somewhat etc etc etc but we would have voted for her.

    Heck, i am not a fan of J.Ardern, but i did place my vote so that she and Labour could win. And at the end of the day i don’t have to be a fan. I just have to vote for the person who will be the lesser evil, as this is sadly the only choice we ever get. So as i said before the last election in the US, if i had to vote there, i would have voted from whomever was on the democratic tickets. They are not much better then the republicans, but so is labour here in NZ. they are the kinder government, that chances are will not take away the right to marry a same sex partner, take away food stamps, accom benefit, unemployment benefits, take away disaster funds and throw paper towels instead, kidnap thousands of kids and lock them up in for profit prisons without keeping record of whom was locked up and their names, who will not pull out of every treaty, etc etc etc.

    We are the unique place in the history of that planet were will can consume all we can before we die and tell the kids to go get fucked, or we can try to stall and fight to preserve some semblance of humanity and life for when global warming and the likes really gets going so that our kids may have a fighting chance.

    • joe90 9.1

      Don’t ya know, the self-identifying true left [PBUT most pristinest and purest progressivest principledness] are exempt from doing what is possible because their rationale for voting is the pursuit of a personal worldview, rather than being one of many in a larger effort to produce outcomes, incremental or not, that better the lives of others.

    • KJT 9.2

      Many USA’ians could correctly retort.

      “Look what voting for the “lesser evil” has got us, rust belts, low wages, working poor, veterans begging on the streets, pensioners having to work in Mcdonalds to survive, a $30 000 bill to have a baby and our sons being sent to endless wars”.

      No chance for many of their kids. With the “lesser evil”.

      The US Democrats are still in denial, over the fact they lost the vote, due to throwing anyone who wasn’t a millionaire under a bus.

      “It was the Russians, Trump’s appeal to raceists, etc, etc.
      Anything to avoid looking at their own failure, to look after the people they pretended to represent.

      • Sabine 9.2.1

        Don’t argue with me, argue with Noam Chomsky. Unless he now is not left enough and pure enough for you.

        as for Trump being a racist, he is. And he has no issue showing it, surrounding himself with people who are, and enacting legislation that is discriminatory.

        And just to remind you, since Nixon you had
        Reagan,
        Bush1
        Bush2
        Trump

        and you had
        Carter
        Clinton
        Obama

        so maybe you want to spread the blame a bit more evenly.

        • KJT 9.2.1.1

          That’s funny.

          I am a ex business owner who now works for a multinational.

          Almost the definition of a capitalist.

          My ” socialism” is pragmatic. And like many Kiwi’s I am keen on “fairness”.

          Because of New Zealands welfare state, excellent state education system, health care and infrastructure, and some hard work, despite a few hiccups on the way, I have done well.

          I, unlike so many these days, believe in leaving the ladder in place, behind me.

          “No capitalist state, or business, has succeeded without a healthy dose of socialism”. In fact, my experience has been, business is always better under more socialist Governments. My customers have more money.

          The lurch to the right wing, by both Labour and National, in the last three decades, has not been good for most New Zealanders.

  9. joe90 10

    The mask slips.

    A Destiny Church Man Up programme facilitator who told a domestic violence survivor it was her ‘fault’ if she ‘provoked’ her partner has been stood down.

    Junior Ponch took exception to the Facebook post of a woman who alleged her abusive partner told her he learned it was her fault he was violent through attending Man Up.

    “Tell ya what chick if you provoked the man to smack your head in your fault!” Ponch wrote.

    “You wouldn’t be a victim if you never provoked him simple! Don’t provoke a man and once he hits you go run and play victim! You lit the fire and got burnt! Don’t go blaming ManUp for lighting the fire!”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110565269/victim-blaming-man-up-course-facilitator-stood-down

    • Cinny 10.1

      Slightly off topic but kinda relevant.

      Had a phone call at 3am from three scared children, they had been brave this time and rung the police. So proud of them.

      When I arrived to bundle up the kids and take them to mine, the dad was busy telling me it was the mum’s fault, if she hadn’t of started the argument, none of it would have happened. Yeah ok then you wouldn’t have punched her and kicked her….it’s her fault he couldn’t control himself. Fuck that. Yeah she can be dramatic even psychotic at times etc, but where’s his self control, beating his mrs while their five year old boy watched.

      They can sort their shit out with the police, kids come first, save your excuses, i’ve heard them all before.

      Kids are safe, have to take them back to their folks later today. When I do will be pointing out who the real victims are, the kids due to the parents behaviour, and what it’s teaching them. No one else seems to have the courage to speak up, everyone else seems to be too busy justifying their actions.

      • Ad 10.1.1

        One hell of an evening there CInny.

        Good on you.

        • Cinny 10.1.1.1

          Crazy times for sure lolz.

          Kids are all good, even they were making excuses and blaming themselves for what happened. It’s not their fault. Am loading on the praise to them for being brave and taking action etc. Proud of them, those phone calls last night took a huge amount of courage on their part.

          Time to make some lunch me thinks 🙂

          • veutoviper 10.1.1.1.1

            Well done, Cindy – but be careful. Pleased to see that the Police were also involved but please be careful, although I know it is difficult in such circumstances not to just act and not think of the possible consequences if there is no backup such as Police etc. Been there done that – but when I was much fitter and stronger but can no longer do so,

            Well done, children. Sad to hear that they are at the stage of blaming themselves – all too frequently children find that the only way to rationalise what is happening. Hope there is counselling for all concerned but might be being unrealistic …

      • Sabine 10.1.2

        well done.

        a lady customer of mine and i we interfered the other day at work. This guy was just going on and on about this chick who was sitting there, in public, getting smaller and smaller by the second, not saying a thing, not looking up, being the most passive she could be and he was like fucking you this, fucking you that……

        so we interfered. Haven’t seen them since, i hope she got out.

        these kids will never forget you, i am sure of that. Well done.

        • Cinny 10.1.2.1

          Good buzz Sabine, what you both did the other day.

          You ladies weren’t interfering, what you did would have meant the world to her. Have been in that chicks shoes before, would have given anything for someone to have called him out.

          Strangers often would rather turn a blind eye when they see that shite happening in public, and that was one of the things that hurt the most, that nobody cared.

          In this situation, it seems to me that the mum is suffering from bad depression, she’s scared of getting proper help for fear of losing her kids. That fear extends to being a fantastic actress when professionals are trying to help. The dad is stressed. And it turns into a big pile of shite. Wasn’t even any booze involved in last nights shite.

          Police are happy to make sure everyone is chilled and then see ya later, job done. Police have been rung by the mum on more than one occasion. Nothing major this time compared to others, the mum doesn’t want to press charges.

          Would have be brilliant for a mental health worked to have tagged along with the police, or visited today, or something, anything.

          Because the kids rang the cops, I think this time it will carry more weight, when the parents reflect on it.

          Kudos to the NZ Police (dang i don’t say that often lolz), it’s because of them going around the schools and instructing kids what to do when in trouble that the kids rang.

          Those kids who were scared did the right thing to keep themselves safe. Told their parents that today, along with a few other things while I was feeling brave lolz.

          Going to follow this up with one of the officers from last night, don’t want this family to be another that falls through the cracks.

          What these kids now find as normal, is not normal behaviour.

          That’s the fucked up thing about it, and people in that social circle almost consider it normal cause they’ve seen it go down once too often. It’s not fucken normal. And people have tried to help this couple before but nothing seems to change so friends give up on helping them.

          Maybe that’s part of the problem in NZ society re high domestic violence etc etc.

      • gsays 10.1.3

        Well done Cinny, it takes integrity to be trusted then courage to do what needs to be done.
        You have my respect.

      • patricia bremner 10.1.4

        Thank You Cinny. Those children will never forget your love and support in an awful situation. Knowing what to do and where to go can be life saving. Bless xx You are showing there are different ways to live, and to ring you they show trust.
        When they blame themselves, just say “No love you are kids they are adults and they need to talk rather than hit, you are not to blame and you did right you got help” It is hard because they still love the adults, and this does affect them. They know you are a safe haven.. Clever kids.

      • mary_a 10.1.5

        The kiddies involved in domestics are indeed the true victims of the whole rotten business of violence in the home. Such sadness and fear in their young lives is so tragic.

        Cinny, you are the epitome of all that is good and decent in this world. You are the best.

    • McFlock 10.2

      It’s ok, they stood him down, the program is perfect again, and only a very small number of attendees will “have a lapse in judgement at some time”.

      Interesting that multiple people came up with the same story about the program. Odds that their partners all went to sessions by the same “facilitator”?

      • Cinny 10.2.1

        And they’ve all got the same imaginary friend in common, to ask for forgiveness.

        Please give generously when you get out of the big house, and show your respect to the imaginary friend. Brian needs a new car or holiday so he continue to do the lords work.

        tamaki won’t share anything for free. Helping people comes at a cost in his eyes, freaking bishop my arse.

        Wonder what the fella in the articles excuse was, he didn’t pray hard enough?

  10. Incognito 11

    NZ has reported shortages in the labour force and this clearly is not limited to so-called un-skilled (what a misnomer!) or low-skilled labour. The market response seems to be to pay internationally competitive ‘market prices’ which occasionally (?) attracts self-serving sharks with ‘embellished’ CVs whose main interests are power & money. Break the old boys network and hire people with less impressive CVs but who have the right attitude and mentality and who actually care about their staff and customers and not just about the bottom line and their own salary package first and foremost.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110526200/e-t-union-official-questions-whether-former-chorus-boss-mark-ratcliffe-right-person-to-reform-nzta

    • Ad 12.1

      According to the Chinese government representative in New Zealand, that is a completely wrong view:

      “You should know that we, not a Chinese newspaper, represent the official position of the Chinese government.”

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/382667/chinese-foreign-ministry-addresses-nz-china-relationship

      He says he doesn’t think warning notices issued since December, the most recently regarding the Tasman fires, could be interpreted as a warning against Chinese travelling to New Zealand.

      “Those insisting on such an interpretation are evidently either making a big fuss over nothing or harboring ulterior motives,” the transcript quoted him as saying.

      Mr Shuang says China stands ready to work with New Zealand on the basis of mutual, respect, equality, and mutual benefit.

      “On bilateral relations, a China-New Zealand relationship enjoying sound and steady development is in the interest of both countries and peoples.”

      • veutoviper 12.1.1

        Interesting, Ad. Some really mixed messages going on at the moment.

        One night during the week on RNZ Checkpoint, there was also a report that I was only able to half listen to in the middle of evening menagerie feeding saying that any delays in NZ shipments getting through Chinese border procedures etc were actually due to the Chinese New Year celebrations with many ports, customs etc working on skeleton staff only at present.

        I won’t attempt to find the link etc, but that actually made more sense to me than a lot of the other things that have been reported, claimed etc over the last week!

        • Sabine 12.1.1.1

          It is the probably the biggest public holiday in the country and a lot of people working in town travel back to the countryside to visit family.

          • veutoviper 12.1.1.1.1

            Exactly, Sabine. Yet the National Party MPs have been trying to claim that there are delays ot NZ export shipments to China due to the NZ- China relationship deteriorating due to Peters’ cozying up to the US etc, etc. They really do think the general public are uneducated idiots.

            • Sabine 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Oh bless them.

            • greywarshark 12.1.1.1.1.2

              If National are saying that then they are working against NZ’s interests and should be summarily dealt with. It’s bad faith to try and stir up mischief.

      • BM 12.1.2

        Probably been a fair bit of behind the scenes grovelling going on by Arden in the last day, lots of so sorrys and head bowing, no doubt

        This release could have been because of that, China has decided to accept the PM’s apology and will see if normal relations can be salvaged.

        • Sabine 12.1.2.1

          if somehow that was needed i would be pleased to know that she did. It shames no one to be able to say ‘ i am sorry’ ‘we were wrong’ ‘or we misunderstood’ . I would worry about hte guy who is always right who is the smartest and who knows it all ……oh yeah, …….

          • BM 12.1.2.1.1

            I’d be glad if she made attempts to mend the relationship, at the moment China is critical to the NZ economy.
            If China decided to stop trading with us our economy would fall over.

            Ardern has to pull Peters back in line, he’s the main reason there have been these problems.

            Will he listen though, that’s the problem Ardern is facing.

            • Incognito 12.1.2.1.1.1

              Oh, it’s Peters’ fault. I’m so glad that you cleared that up for me. I thought it was Twyford shooting off his mouth again about the sound of surnames. For the record, Peters should never gone into Government with Labour and that other bunch. It’s so refreshing to find like-minded people here, anywhere …

            • Sabine 12.1.2.1.1.2

              i have no idea what Peters does to be honest, no more then i had any idea really what the double dipper of dipton was up to when he was second.

              And as far as i am concerned it is her problem. And she will deal with it if she thinks its needed.

            • David Mac 12.1.2.1.1.3

              Do you think this ‘China doesn’t love us anymore’ thing has the potential to be nothing more than a storm in a teacup? I’m starting to get that feeling.

              • David Mac

                Media: “This container of Sanford Tuna has stood waiting clearance for 4 days.”

                Port Worker: “Yeah they’re all here for about 4 days, their freezer units plugged into our grid…..Do you have any idea how many containers come through this port?”

                Don’t believe the hype

                Tight as James Brown’s crew.

              • mary_a

                I see Natz meddling here.

            • Exkiwiforces 12.1.2.1.1.4

              It’s clearly we never learnt from the last time we put all our eggs in the same basket. That’s why we need a diversified economy with state and private sector playing an equal part in the economy. Instead we have free market economy where everyone is after a quick buck at the expense of other parts of the economy and greater good for the country.

              Clearly the muppets like you don’t understand history or didn’t do well at school? But are driven by money money as we now best and the market is always right.

              Winnie is doing fine and on the whole this Government is doing ok, with a few speed bumps along the way which is not unusual for whoever is in power for the first 18mths in office especially after 9yrs in opposition regardless of how planning they do.

              If they “No Mates Party” was in, we would more likely been booted out of 5EYES or seen a reduce activity IRT 5Eyes, more exposure to any downturn to Chinese market which btw isn’t that shit hot atm due to the trade war between the US and China and a far bigger infrastructure deficit left behind the “No Mates Party” across the all the Government Depts including Defence and KiwiRail. I also remember Winnie saying about the world economy as whole during the election is isn’t that shit hot either as most Reserve Banks are running out options to keep the world economies above water.

              We would’ve seen further weakening of our Bio- Security, WHS and Employment Laws as we race to the bottom again as the free market believes in less red tape is better and don’t get me started on tax or your silly little wars with Uncle Sam.

        • Graeme 12.1.2.2

          The only grovelling going on here is your post.

          Read the language in the Chinese statement.

          “Those insisting on such an interpretation are evidently either making a big fuss over nothing or harboring ulterior motives,” the transcript quoted him as saying.

          Those who have been undertaking economic sabotage of both economies have been told to pull their heads in.

        • Gabby 12.1.2.3

          Probably talkin shit BMmer.

      • cleangreen 12.1.3

        Yes China wants advantages they wont give us in China we hear all the time now.

  11. Anne 13

    Maggie Barry is following the Nat Party strategy of criticising every mortal thing that moves (or makes noises) regardless of whether it is part of a government initiative or not. She has been claiming the MPI response to the discovery of the Queensland fruit fly in Devonport was too slow. She’s also piqued they didn’t communicate with her. A bit of a contradiction there methinks. On the one hand they didn’t respond quickly enough, but on the other she expected them to waste time communicating with her. What could she have done. She should have given them a ring if she was so concerned.

    MPI have responded and I suspect she’ll keep her mouth shut for a while:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/02/fruit-fly-scare-industry-group-backs-mpi-s-response.html

    • Anne 13.1

      Oh and here is the earlier item which indicates her criticism was a little stronger than reported today:

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/02/response-to-fruit-fly-in-devonport-too-slow-says-north-shore-mp-maggie-barry.html

      I agree with Biosecurity minister, Damien O’Conner when he says:

      “No MP of any stripe should try and insert themselves in the middle of it for the sake of cheap political point scoring, which risks detracting hard-working staff from the important task at hand, which includes preventing the fruit fly from establishing here.”

    • AB 13.2

      Barry is the apotheosis of The Tory sense of entitlement. She deserves nothing but remorseless ridicule.

      • Wensleydale 13.2.1

        And yet she seemed so pleasantly benign when she was hosting Maggie’s Garden Show. My elderly mother thought she was the bee’s knees and never missed a screening. She doesn’t really know what to think these days. Barry’s transformation is pretty jarring, to be honest. It’s like she fell down a stairwell, hit her head on something and woke up a completely different person.

        • Anne 13.2.1.1

          The real Mag. Barry is the one we are seeing now. It appears she was a different person behind the scenes of the TV Garden show. One former garden owner (South Island I think) revealed last year she was so upset at the way Maggie treated her, it took her an age to recover from it.

          • ianmac 13.2.1.1.1

            I heard from a Kaikoura Coast gardener whose property appeared on Maggie’s Show in the 90s that they were horrified at the way that Maggie treated them. Rude arrogant and totally without respect for them. Never again they said!

            • cleangreen 13.2.1.1.1.1

              Maggie Barry is a pompous specimen alright, we had word in HB, that the same rude behavior was greeted by her here too.

              he loves her power trip apparently.

      • patricia bremner 13.2.2

        AB Are you saying the Devine Barry? Really?

  12. Incognito 14

    Not everybody is happy with the end of Tenure Review. The EDS (Environmental Defence Society) is one of them.

    EDS not convinced abandoning tenure review is a good thing

    • patricia bremner 14.1

      I think it is a reaction to an actual action, when they thought the Government would jawbone first. Makes me laugh. Good for Eugene.
      “Form a committee talk and talk. Water it down. Now proceed” is their mantra for any change. Some of these committees are quangos. (Urban Dictionary)

    • KJT 14.2

      What part of giving away public land for peanuts, often to run holders who have benefited from cheap leases for decades, don’t they understand?

  13. One Two 15

    https://www.orsaa.org/

    https://www.orsaa.org/about.html

    https://www.orsaa.org/latest-news

    ARPANSA has ignored a large evidence base that challenges their position. The scientific evidence we have collated, presented and made publicly available demonstrates that there are biological/health effects occurring at exposures well below the ARPANSA standard.

    Therefore, ARPANSA’s claim that there is “no substantiated evidence that RF exposure at levels below the limits of the ARPANSA Standard causes harm to humans” is misleading.

    A risk management approach should be adopted urgently for RF-EMR with ALARA as the mainstay of this plan.

    Wireless technology is not risk-free as implied by ARPANSA’s claim of “no established evidence of harm”.
    Australians need to be informed of the risks so that they can make informed decisions when it comes to the use of wireless technology, particularly with regards to more vulnerable groups such as children.

    • Incognito 15.1

      Just reading the quoted text, assuming it was a verbatim quote, it is immediately obvious that there’s a logical disconnect. The point is that “biological/health effects” are not synonymous with “causes harm to humans”. This would be like saying that a drug is mutagenic in the Ames test and (thus) causes cancer in humans. The one refers to potential, the other to established effect in humans.

      • One Two 15.1.1

        Indication, is that you have not read the links ?

        Once you’ve read all the comments and links I’ve posted in recent weeks, we can discuss…if you would like to…

        Logical disconnects are often the result of inadequate understanding, and assumptions…yours…not those who are attributed to the quote…

        The quoted text does not exist in a vacuum… it is specifically referring to RF exposure affects, which have the potential to impact negatively, and or damage human health…

        As evidenced by the last 4-6 decades of research…the most recent 2 decades especially…evidence which international and national regulatory bodies, ignore and sideline…that is the core premise of the quoted text..

        And yet the standards used to legally protect ‘industry’…have not been updated since 2002…

        • Incognito 15.1.1.1

          Indication, is that you have not read the links ?

          That’s what I said, didn’t I?

          Logical disconnects are often the result of inadequate understanding, and assumptions…yours…not those who are attributed to the quote…

          You used the quote and you left the door wide open to (my) misunderstanding. If you cannot be accurate in one comment and only refer to “all the comments and links I’ve posted in recent weeks”, without any links, I assume you have no genuine interest in a scientific discussion; you simply want to stake your claim and you’ve made up your mind. Closed-mindedness is exactly what you accuse others of who don’t agree with you.

          You may have a point about RF-EMR but you act like a dog with a bone …

          If you want to educate people you may want to re-think your approach and conduct; practice a little more patience and modesty, for starters …

          End of discussion that never eventuated …

          • One Two 15.1.1.1.1

            Incognito…

            I asked if you had not read the links, so as I could be certain that you had not…

            I provided the links…the links contain the full context…the quote has not been clipped and is immediately viewable on the page the second link goes to, which includes PDF document in full…and the exact same quote is also in the PDF…

            You chose to not the read the provided links… and instead decided to make a judgement against the quoted text…immediately reaching for and calling out… it is immediately obvious that there’s a logical disconnect

            All I did was point out that the logical disconnect, was the result of your choices…

            Which clearly you didn’t like…and instead of either engaging as per my request…or simply not responding further…you’ve chosen to take dump…and run away

            I would not say this not an appropriate response of an author on the site…there has been worse…but again…this has been …your choice

            • Incognito 15.1.1.1.1.1

              I clicked on the second link, as you said, but this takes me to the About page!?

              In any case, the quote as it stands, un-clipped, would never make it past a good peer reviewer; I definitely would reject it outright, regardless of context.

              My choice is to not waste my precious time on people who claim they want a scientific debate or discussion when they don’t follow basic ground rules for such debate to flourish, one of which is “good faith”, another one is to accept criticism, e.g. of the material they present to support their case or reject evidence by their opponent.

              This is a shame because you may have a point but you spoil it enough for me to no longer engage with you on this subject matter, which is your loss …

              Your choice was to ignore and twist my comment; I clearly referred to links to “all the comments and links I’ve [i.e. you] posted in recent weeks”.

              Lastly, anybody can be(come) an Author here on TS. You should try it one day instead of inferring that I’m on a mighty high horse. If I had Moderator rights here on TS I would give you a warning …

              • One Two

                If I had Moderator rights here on TS I would give you a warning

                For your misnterpretation that I inferred you were on a ‘mighty high horse ?

                I inferred no such thing, Incognito…but again you’ve chosen to take a dump…

                To your earlier query, I am not here to teach…not at all…

                I am sharing information which is of interest to me, and which may be of interest in its own right…or as part of wider conversations…to others…

                If you’re interested in any subject…and then seek to shift responsibility to someone else for ‘spoiling’ it on your behalf…then you’re either making excuses, talking nonsense…or are full of crap…

                Given you believe your time to be ‘precious’…and that I’m making claims to be want a scientific debate…we’ll see…

                And the links work just fine…the quote stands on its own merit in the context of the document in which is resides…

                The quote is not from a peer reviewable article…it’s an authors response to a ‘letter to the editor’…

                As far as ‘outright rejection’ goes…and your peer reviewer ‘status’…

                …Now there is a ‘mighty high horse’…

                Full of Crap!

                • Incognito

                  As far as ‘outright rejection’ goes…and your peer reviewer ‘status’…

                  …Now there is a ‘mighty high horse’…

                  Horses for courses but you failed the comprehension test.

                  So, you don’t want to educate, you don’t want to debate, you just want to share and have a ‘conversation’ with like-minded others. FYI, TS is for (robust) debate; what you seem to be looking for is an echo chamber.

                  So, the quote was from a letter. That explains a lot and I don’t envy the Editor but some journals have a policy of publishing all letters as long as they meet basic criteria of acceptability. Such letters are not at the same level of quality and scientific rigour as peer-reviewed articles; they often express an opinion and very little else. A bit like your comments here on TS.

                  Lastly, your language and tone are deteriorating, which is not a good sign. Just saying.

                  • One Two

                    It’s not a comprehension test, Incognito…and the failure belongs to you…again…I’ve already explained to you about taking responsibility and not shifting it elsewhere…yet there you go…again…and so quickly…

                    Conversation is what I am interested in…TS is already an exho chamber…and I’m not conceited enough to claim a commentator is claiming to want ‘robust (scientific) debate’ , while simultaneously crying about it while running away..

                    As for the paragraph on ‘response letter’, and last sentence reference to language and tone…

                    Transparent climb down…more excuses and not taking responsibility for your initial and subsequent responses….not reading the linked documents…

                    As for the feable reference to language and tone ‘deteriorating’…

                    Have some self respect, Incognito…take responsibility for your original ‘logical disconnect’…

          • Bazza64 15.1.1.1.2

            Incognito, would be best to give One Two a wide swerve. He likes to push his crazy EMF theories, even though they are widely discredited.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury 15.1.1.1.2.1

              Seems like the type to tinfoil wallpaper the side of the house pointing in the general direction of any cell tower.

              • Bazza64

                Good to see you back TS, hope the standown wasn’t too harsh (Like a home detention sentence but with Uber eats only a phone call away)

              • Andre

                I tried to be helpful and suggested a method that probably fits their worldview that they could use to protect themselves from microwaves starting at 3.2 on Daily Review 12/2/2019.

                Oddly enough, they seemed unappreciative.

                • Bazza64

                  Andre, thanks for that. I wasn’t involved in this EMF stuff until a few days later. A very funny post, a nice contrast to the heavy bold type from some who maybe have their own homeopathic remedy to sell ?

                  • Andre

                    I take it you haven’t wasted too much time on The Standard yet? That you’re … ahhh … just coming to grips with One Two suggests probably not.

                    To be sure, One Two is nuttier than the buffet at a squirrel convention. But it’s mostly the entertaining kind of nutty. With a distinct resemblance to what you get from http://wisdomofchopra.com or http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/

                    It only happens rarely that One Two puts up something that might mislead reasonable people and therefore requires a serious response.

                • One Two

                  BTW One Two, this really isn’t for your benefit. It’s in case any lurkers are interested

                  Andre…our engagement was completed on 12.2…That’s your comment…

                  The company you’re choosing to keep on this subject…is far beneath your level of capability…

                  There is an endless amount of research and data accrued over many decades…and the best you can come up with is that ‘there are no known risks’….

                  Exactly the same as the regulators and international agencies…

                  Even the few links I’ve put up over the last couple of weeks, shows that statement to highly misleading …

                  Ignoring the research, misinterpreting it or burying it on behalf of industry… doesn’t alter what what the captured data has been saying for decades…

                  Edit: Stop the name calling, eh…

                  • Bazza64

                    One Two

                    There are also no known sightings of Elvis Presley since he popped his clogs, but with your logic that does not mean he is dead.

                  • Andre

                    Y’know, One Two, I’m mildly curious about how you’re protecting yourself from the microwaves spewing forth from the device you’re using to communicate with The Standard.

                    https://www.defendershield.com/the-dangers-of-computer-radiation/

                    I’ve kinda got a mental picture that maybe you’ve built a full faraday cage to put your device and modem in, with a lead glass window to view the monitor and fully shielded gloves going into the cage for you to use the keyboard and mouse.

                    But just in case all the emissions from your personal devices have slipped your attention, that website above with all the scary info also happens to sell just what you need to protect yourself. Order within the next thirty minutes and I’ll get a commission.

                    • One Two

                      You’re not a young man, Andre…are you…but your comments come across on this site as immature…still at the name calling level…

                      Despite what you claim as a profession, your comments indicate a deep level of cognitive dissonance…which is unfortunate…for you…

                      You avoid engaging on the actual issues which I have raised through linked commentary, and you respond with transference, projection and deflect into spaces which, despite your claimed profession, should be able to comprehend…but seemingly are unable to do so…

                      What prevents you from understanding (or even attempting to understand) the subject matter and engaging without calling names, at literally every opportunity…is for you to negotiate with yourself on…

                      Myself…I am not interested in anything about you over what have already illustrated…I do not know you other than through your comments on this site…

                      I’ll continue posting on the impacts of wireless technology, as I have previously stated…there are commentators here who are a complete waste of time on the subject…and will not be responding to those handles…

                      I am not posting for those who are disinterested, seeking to score points or throw insults…and who engage from positions of bad faith…

                      A summary to round up the last two weeks or so of comments will be the next comment I make regarding wireless technology…

                    • David Mac

                      Billet zinc, lead lined, titanium/neoprene flanged articulated suit.

                      We’re kicking our next conference off with a fashion show.

                      I think I stand a better chance of dying beneath the ice-pick of my mother in law whilst disguised as my wife’s Dad.

                      Nobody gets out alive.

                    • cleangreen

                      Andre you are just being childish.

                      One two is bang on here so wake up.

          • veutoviper 15.1.1.1.3

            Incognito, have a look at the exchanges at 10 on Open Mike, 15 February 2019 to see what Bazza is talking about. As links to actual comments don’t work currently, I won’t try to but just go to Home and then to OM 15 Feb. Actually I personally would be interested in your views on the assertions in that thread.

            Also my apologies to you for jumping in on your excellent post yesterday, but I realised that @1 was the fourth posting of that same comment in less than two hours.

    • cleangreen 15.2

      Well reported One two.

      those who carry out electronic Electromagnetic UHF measuring of these wireless devices now, are putting some issues out on the web now.

      It seems that we are in danger of exposure to any device emitting UHF and low frequency also, as our own bodies are tuned to a frequency that it can cope with but when other frequencies enter our bodies the brain cannot cope.

      Those who cant sleep are early signs of that problem..

      Electromagnetic sensitivity (ES) is a known illness caused by these devices now, and WHO and several countries have placed this illness as a real illness to treat. Germany has it as a disability now.

      Independent information on the possible health and safety issues arising from human exposure to electromagnetic energy.
      https://www.emfacts.com/

      • One Two 15.2.1

        It is already well enough
        understood cleangreen…

        There is nothing ‘horrendously complex’ about it…to quote a comment , just above…

        It is simple enough…as is the precautionary principle…

        Simply…we dial it all down…or we continue on present track…and then it does become…horrendously messy…

        There is more than enough research over an extended time lapse, more than enough evidence of captured regulators and industry corruptive practice…including outdated and fraudulently arrived at ‘safety standards’…

        All very unscientific…

        Yet some folk still can’t see yet another elephant…

        Those folks, are also the problem…

        Thanks for the link.

      • Andre 15.2.2

        Here’s an example of how the pseudoscience quackery of the kind you lot are spreading here causes real harm. When someone is genuinely suffering from a real illness that is actually treatable, but idiot bullshit getting spread around causes the sufferers to misattribute the illness and thereby choose not to seek appropriate help, the results can be tragic.

        In this particular example, the victim was very likely suffering from long-term depression. Sadly, she and her caregivers were diverted into notions of seeking relief from bogus “wi-fi sensitivity” and never sought help from professionals that may have been able to assist with the depression. That victim ended up taking her life.

        https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/electromagnetic-hypersensitivity-and-wifi-allergies-bogus-diagnoses-with-tragic-real-world-consequences/

        Even without the kinds of tragic consequences discussed above, spreading around the kind of unsubstantiated bullshit (frequently peddled by snake-oil salespeople like the emfacts crowd pushing their consulting services) results in spreading nocebo effects. Where you make people feel unwell purely psychosomatically.

        https://www.webmd.com/balance/features/is-the-nocebo-effect-hurting-your-health#1

        As the links provided by Bazza64 have gone over, the “evidence” of harm from EMFs, microwaves etc is very shaky at best, and is most likely simply the result of crap pseudoscience techniques like data-dredging and p-hacking.

        • cleangreen 15.2.2.1

          Andre is wrong again here; – as industry studies don’t tell the true evidence as they are paid to show ‘no evidence’.

          Current evidence; –

          The wireless industry is simply protecting their business interests and paying for their own ‘flawed studies’ just as the tobacco industry and the “big pharma did so before them.

          They will always then use the term to protect their business by stating; – “there is no evidence that humans are harmed’

          • Incognito 15.2.2.1.1

            Sure, industries (i.e. some but not all companies) protect their interests but this ignores all non-industry studies and research. You make it sound like a huge conspiracy that everybody is in on, including all non-industry scientists and you call this “[c]urrent evidence”!? Yeah, right!

          • One Two 15.2.2.1.2

            Notice how Andre went directly to name calling…again…those who reference Gorski…including medical professionals around the world also adopt the name calling writing style…

            Andre , as bazza also did..has linked to a well known cross industry hired mercenery by the name of David Gorski…AKA sceptical raptor AKA orac…

            The ‘go to’ for smears, name calling and non expert opinion…seeking to narrow the discussion into divisible components…EHS is the current example…it is a single aspect of the overall issues associated with wireless…

            Those who link to Gorski are as uninformed and disingenuous as it is possible to be…

            The industry and thus regluatory endorsed method employed, is to ensure a state of confusion is maintained regarding research and evidence for a long as possible, thus ensuring ‘there is no evidence’ can be maintained…

            It is a legal position, which once taken will not be amended … doing so would bring entire industry and regulatory agencies into further disrepute… and open them up to crippling legal action…

            As you point out, it is the same tired approach used over an extended period of time…

            It works…on many…still…

            • Andre 15.2.2.1.2.1

              I encourage anyone interested in the insinuation that David Gorski is a mercenary opinion for hire to do their own research on him and his work.

          • Bazza64 15.2.2.1.3

            Clean Green
            I take it that you & one two must be well suited in tinfoil to protect you from the EMF’s coming out of your devices ? A lot of posts mean sans tin foil you & one two must be ready for a trip to the Doctor, or Homeopath ?

  14. joe90 16

    Blast from the past; a FB is good story from a time long ago when FB wasn’t a steaming pile of horribleness.

    NAIROBI — Women in Sudan are using private Facebook groups created to creep on crushes to dox state security officers brutalizing demonstrators during huge anti-government protests sweeping the country.

    When security agents and police abusing their power have had their identities exposed, they have been hounded by people in their own neighborhoods, beaten up, and sometimes even chased out of town.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    The groups — only accessible via a virtual private network (VPN) after the government blocked social media — are part of the response to a brutal crackdown on anti-government protests that have swept the country since December. They are the largest ever against the regime of Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, who took office in 1989 and whom protesters accuse of enforcing oppressive laws and wrecking the economy. At least 57 people have been killed in the protests, and countless others have been shot at, teargassed, had their hair cut off by officers, and tortured.

    Sudan’s morality laws prevent women from gathering in public; dictate the clothes they wear; and authorize the use of corporal punishment, like lashing and stoning, if they violate or criticize the rules. As a result, private Facebook groups have become a popular way for millions of Sudanese women to safely communicate with one another.

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tamerragriffin/sudan-protests-women-facebook-groups

  15. joe90 17

    Be thankful people, very, very, thankful that we live where we do.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1096048357041233920.html

    • McFlock 17.1

      In the debrief for that one I realized: my colleagues think they’re being taught how to survive.

      They don’t know this technique is intended to slow down our deaths, to give law enforcement more time to respond

      fucksake.

  16. Ad 18

    President Trump’s tax cut package was great for the 1%-ers, but for the working person, well, not so much when it comes to tax time:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tax-refunds-gop-law_n_5c671dcee4b033a799429900

    Can’t wait for this kind of blowback to hit the Republican Senators who voted for it.

    • Andre 18.1

      Culturally that tax refund is a big deal. It really matters to a lot of people.

      When someone’s been getting refunds for years or decades, then suddenly gets a much smaller one or even a big bill, there’s just no way to spin it. Even when it’s completely correct to say they made an error in setting their withholding throughout the year, it’s still a completely loser of an argument.

      “WTF? You told me I was getting a tax cut, and now I’m not even getting my usual refund?! And you’re trying to blame me for it???!!!!??”

      • Sabine 18.1.1

        its more then just getting a refund for with holding taxes, it is reduction things to write of that is hitting a lot. but they, you voted for tax cuts you got them. now rejoice.

  17. joe90 19

    FFS.

  18. mosa 20

    This is a travesty for the men who died here and it must not stand!!!!!!

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/02/17/pike-families-shocked-by-missing-evidence/

    • Cinny 20.1

      Big time coverup, hopefully not anymore.

    • RedLogix 20.2

      A small paranoid part of me always suspected Pike River was an insurance job. Circumstantial evidence only, but this development does nothing dampen my darker suspicions.

      • marty mars 20.2.1

        That is a major accusation – what circumstantial evidence have you seen?

        • RedLogix 20.2.1.1

          Circumstances. The mine had an upcoming delivery contract it had no hope of filling and a huge penalty liable. The explosion very conveniently got them off the hook.

          That and a statement from one of the two survivors that in the aftermath of the first explosion he smelt the distinct odour of cordite. These are people who would be very familiar with it. This statement seemed to disappear very quickly down the media memory hole.

          It was always my feeling that if any other business in NZ had burned down in similar circumstances there would have been a very determined investigation to discover the root cause.

          I have to state clearly for the record that I have am only speculating here; but I’m certain of one thing, I’m not the only person to have expressed similar concerns. As I said above, I’m not turning this into a 911 Truther crusade, merely expressing the small, but non-zero probability that this event was indeed a cold-blooded crime.

          It’s why I want to see the mine re-entered. Hopefully this would put my claim here to rest.

          • Exkiwiforces 20.2.1.1.2

            That’s an interesting theory Red and yes it’s going to be really interesting once they re-enter the mine. If the evidence points to your theory or something else that wouldn’t had happen if the old Mines Dept hadn’t been disbanded along the Check System which involve the Mine Manager or his rep aka the Mine Engineer, the Workers Rep or Union Rep and the Mine Inspectorate from the Mines Dept.

            • RedLogix 20.2.1.1.2.1

              I don’t ‘think’ it was an insurance job. It’s not something I could possibly know for 100% for certain.

              But equally this means I cannot 100% rule it out either. The circumstances are suspicious and until Andrew Little put his neck on the line over this, there was a determined effort from the National govt to ensure there was no re-entry and no forensic investigation.

              If you want me to put a probability on this scenario I’d say 5-10%. Not high, but not zero either.

              • Exkiwiforces

                Yes it’s probably a low probability that of your theory, but then again anything is possible when you look a many coal or other underground mining disasters over the decades. Thence why there was always a Mines Dept along with its Mines inspectorate, Mines Rescue Wing and it training wing aka School of Mines at entry level to post graduate training.

                We had a Government that threw all this away, along with its corporate knowledge, lessons learnt from over the decades etc and all because it’s wanted wrecked workers rights under the guise of to much red tape in the workplace in which the state shouldn’t be involved with as the private sector knows best.

          • cleangreen 20.2.1.1.3

            Good logic there RedLogix

        • Anne 20.2.1.2

          It’s a big story mm. Led tonight’s TV1 news. From the Herald:

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12204649

          It was blown to the surface, picked up and loaded onto a Pike River company helicopter and disappeared…..

          Sheesh!

    • Exkiwiforces 20.3

      Yep, it proves that when the “No Mates Party” disbanding the old Mines Dept, introducing ECA and the then OHS Laws was a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when Labour could’ve fix this after what happened up the Roa Mine when old mate drowned down the mine that happened under Labour’s watch.

      This latest find could be interesting as dad heard a rumour that the electrical work was very substandard and wouldn’t pass muster under the old Mines Dept and let alone under the old National Electrical Training Committee, which dad was a workers rep and later the Union rep before the “No Mates Party” wreck it when they screw up the old apprentice scheme, ECA, OHS Laws etc.

      • RedLogix 20.3.1

        I have some professional expertise in this area of hazardous area electrical standards. All I can say is that it was an extremely unusual and risky design to have the ventilation fan and it’s associated control equipment located in the hazardous area.

        And any responsible engineer would have ensured that given this risky design choice, all the equipment would have been installed in explosion proof enclosures to the highest possible standard. I cannot over-emphasise how well-understood and basic this requirement is.

        This ‘lost evidence’ is of major importance. If it can be shown that the mine management knowingly installed sub-standard electrical equipment into a mine well-known to be highly gassy and risky … there can only be one conclusion. And it’s a very serious one indeed.

        • Exkiwiforces 20.3.1.1

          As my late great uncle said to me, that Pike River wouldn’t be built or allow to operate as Mine if the Mines Dept wasn’t disbanded.

          My Great uncle was the last mine manger/ mine engineer of the old family coal mine when the government revoked our license IOT close the then close by state mine and was then head hunted by the Mines Dept on the Coast as they held the families method of coal mine in high regards in all areas of coal mining.

          Dad had a hard rock experience from Broken Hill and High voltage operations in close enclosed spaces, along with HVT and HCT lines before he joined his dream job as a union rep in the then NZ Engineers Union.

          Dads opinion of the Royal Commission didn’t ask right questions and the scope of the commission was very small and therefore, he said it was a Waste Of Time and Fucking Taxpayers Money and ass covering exercise the “No Mates Party” protecting their mates.

    • millsy 20.4

      Doesn’t surprise me. TBH they probably threw it out the window over the Tasman.

  19. mary_a 21

    This very disturbing news Mosa (20).

    A possible crime scene cover up, through the removal of evidence. Be interesting to see what a police investigation will come up with.

    More betrayal for the bereaved families of the Pike 29?

  20. Cinny 22

    Re Tasman Fires and the nat’s latest attempt to stir up division.

    So the tories are kicking up a stink because some farmers decided to help out re the Tasman fire by donating and trucking up feed and now want their road user charges waived.

    national stirring the pot big time, it’s bullshit. This latest nat attack narrative fueled by the fed farmers is manipulation of peoples emotions during a time of crisis.

    I don’t see any other of the volunteers who have donated food, time, money etc etc asking for money back from the government.

    And there have been hundreds, nah more than a thousand, of them, even the school kids are helping. It’s about community, that’s how it rolls.

    It’s not about helping then seeing what you can get out of it. What about the givealittle page that was set up to get the convoy up here?

    See it was all good…. everyone was like cool here come some farmers from down the island to help as well…..

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/110616381/twelve-trucks-of-hay-headed-to-nelson-thanks-to-geraldine-womans-drive-to-help-struggling-farmers

    Then the dirty tories decide to twist it around into greed
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rural/2019/02/government-refuses-to-refund-truckies-delivering-tasman-farm-aid.html

    FB Hay Convoy… more info there, already tory trolls busy politicising it.

    https://www.facebook.com/NelsonFiresHayConvoy/

    • greywarshark 22.1

      The Nelson Fires Hay Convoy has been organising hundreds of bales of hay for fire-affected farms – and paying for it out of their own pockets.

      Around 236 tonnes of donated hay has come up from Canterbury over the past seven days and without it, farmers say they would be stuffed.
      Trucking companies, farmers, drivers have all donated time, money and hay to enough feed to Nelson – and it doesn’t come cheap…

      National wants companies taking part to have their Road User Charges refunded as an act of goodwill.

      The Opposition believes around $18,000-worth of charges have been clocked up from companies volunteering help.

      “It’s a really small cost for the Government in what is essentially foregone revenue to them, but it would mean a lot to the guys undertaking what is essentially a mercy mission,” says MP Andrew Falloon.

      “In many cases these guys are donating many hours, a lot of money in petrol costs and having trucks off the road – so it’s an important initiative for these guys.”…

      The running costs for a week’s worth of transportation is estimated at up to $100,000. And there is still weeks’ worth more needed.

      But Transport Minister Phil Twyford says this isn’t possible, and the Government has already injected $100,000 to help with relief.

      I don’t think this is unreasonable – $18,000 in charges, that is just part of what they would have paid out. The Opposition member is just doing his job, looking after his constituents. They came to assist, and travelled from afar to bring the hay, and have foregone work and income (opportunity cost) and have incurred expenses they are paying.

      The Labour coalition’s Phil Twyford should say yes, they can have it. He might have to look for the money; get it from Shane Jones regional fund? But he shouldn’t be stonewalling – no way. Fairness is required. We need to help the farmers when there is disaster. It’s time to demonstrate the co-operation that we are trying to cultivate rurally.

    • cleangreen 22.2

      Yes Cindy That will be Nelsons MP the worn down Nick Smith just trurring the pot again for the last time.

      Strange about Nick as he was once a rebel National Party man when he stood with ‘Guy Salmon’ conservationist in 1990’s; – and again when the Nelson bound port trucks were terrorising Nelson when they were going to the Port so Nick stood against these truckies then stopping them bullying the residents as they would go through any street to get to the nelson Port then, and now they want him support????

      Road transport forum chief Ken Shirley will also be stirring behind the scenes with Smith.

      Trolling attacks against Phil Twyford is just more dirty politics on show as being alive.

      Phil said no; – because the Farmers are now getting that tax money directly given them anyway as a handout/grant. he also said that the farmers can go to other agencies for financial relief.

      • greywarshark 22.2.1

        Concentrate on what you need now that is good clean green. Don’t forget the histories of the players still around, and those behind the curtains, but if you let it come to the top of your mind, you will make yourself sick – heart, arthritis, affected by negatives, who can be sure but why enable it. Think positive, what can be turned to Gisborne and area’s advantage. This is good advice, and while i am giving it to you, I am accepting the need for myself. Hope we both get what we are trying for! Kia kaha.

    • marty mars 22.3

      That is terrible – politicizing trauma is about as low as you can go.

  21. joe90 23

    Golly, that’s a curly one.

    /

    Goldman Sachs asks in biotech research report: ‘Is curing patients a sustainable business model?’

    Goldman Sachs analysts attempted to address a touchy subject for biotech companies, especially those involved in the pioneering “gene therapy” treatment: cures could be bad for business in the long run.

    “Is curing patients a sustainable business model?” analysts ask in an April 10 report entitled “The Genome Revolution.”

    “The potential to deliver ‘one shot cures’ is one of the most attractive aspects of gene therapy, genetically-engineered cell therapy and gene editing. However, such treatments offer a very different outlook with regard to recurring revenue versus chronic therapies,” analyst Salveen Richter wrote in the note to clients Tuesday. “While this proposition carries tremendous value for patients and society, it could represent a challenge for genome medicine developers looking for sustained cash flow.”

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-patients-a-sustainable-business-model.html

    • RedLogix 23.1

      Given that total health care costs in the USA are close to 18% of GDP, you have to think the industry has a very low interest in developing cures that might actually work.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

      • joe90 23.1.1

        Indeed. And it’s not until you read about someone’s dire circumstances that you realise just how diabolical their system is.

        • RedLogix 23.1.1.1

          Some years back we had a medical adventure in the women’s ward at Wellington; in the opposite bed was a young kiwi woman who had married in the USA and with their first baby on the way discovered she had placenta previa (the placenta obstructs the birth canal) … a serious but not uncommon condition routinely handled by obstetricians everywhere.

          When they were quoted U$750,000 by their health provider to handle this condition, they both quit their American jobs and hightailed it back home, now very, very grateful they had the opportunity to do so.

          And this was at least a decade ago … utterly insane. I read somewhere that the most common cause of homelessness in the USA was a medical bill that couldn’t be paid. I truly wonder why they put up with it.

          • joe90 23.1.1.1.1

            My SO worked with an American who was quite open about his and his wife’s reason for taking up residency. Birthing their three kids.

            And once the youngest had completed year 4 in the immunisation schedule, they were gone.

      • Incognito 23.1.2

        Total health expenditure involves many industries of which the biotech industry is just one. Joe90 was talking about the biotech industry only as far as I can see.

        Just to offer a suggestion to get out of the current quagmire of the rising costs of treatments, one idea is change regulation and allow for PPPs between specially accredited clinical-research labs funded by the Taxpayer, as they are now, and biotech companies, which are often start-ups or spin-offs directly from academia. Much of the discovery and basic development comes from Taxpayer-funded labs anyway. The argument has always been that they don’t lack the scale and expertise to bring (blockbuster) drugs to market. With personalised and even individualised medicine, the scaling issue becomes a whole new one. The so-called expertise is mainly in product development, marketing & advertising, sales network, (corporate) legal & regulatory affairs, etc. Much of that can be made obsolete when the scale becomes that of one individual patient. A prime example would be CAR-T: https://www.malaghan.org.nz/what-we-do/car-t-cell/

        Edit: I forgot the ROI to shareholders …

    • cleangreen 23.2

      Goldman Sachs drive Greece broke too.

  22. Sabine 24

    i hope that everyone saw the current fire map for the north island. Basically everything is dark red, highest risk, complete fire ban.

    I would like to repeat that, the whole of the North Island is at dark red, highest fire risk.

  23. greywarshark 25

    Justice delayed is justice denied.

    Our justice system is harder on applicants seeking spayment of moneys owed or redress, than it is on perpetrators. They get away with skipping around and misusing the system to put off paying people what has been granted. Te payments seem high, but if they were lower and the person not paying was to serve jail time, and goods seized it would be fairer.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/109889083/no-guarantee-employees-receive-money-owed-to-them-after-winning-employment-disputes

  24. Pat 26

    Feedbacks….why CC is not a future problem.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/17/methane-levels-sharp-rise-threaten-paris-climate-agreement

    “What we are now witnessing is extremely worrying,” said one of the paper’s lead authors, Professor Euan Nisbet of Royal Holloway, University of London. “It is particularly alarming because we are still not sure why atmospheric methane levels are rising across the planet.”

  25. joe90 27

    And the most ridiculous show on earth gets absurder by the moment….

    Prime Minister Shinzo Abe nominated U.S. President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize last autumn after receiving a request from the U.S. government to do so, the Asahi newspaper reported Sunday.

    The report follows Trump’s claim Friday that Abe had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize for opening talks and easing tensions with North Korea.

    The Japanese leader had given him “the most beautiful copy” of a five-page nomination letter, Trump said at a White House news conference.

    The U.S. government had sounded Abe out over the Noble Peace Prize nomination after Trump’s summit in June last year with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, the first meeting between a North Korean leader and a sitting U.S. president, the Asahi said, citing an unnamed Japanese government source.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/02/17/national/politics-diplomacy/abe-nominated-trump-nobel-peace-prize-request-u-s-report-says/#.XGk1N7jRWUk

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