Open mike 17/02/2022

128 comments on “Open mike 17/02/2022 ”

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1. tsmithfield 1

   17 February 2022 at 6:58 am

   People who have been vaccinated before or after getting Covid end up with "super-immunity"

   ""In both cases, the immune response measured in blood serum revealed antibodies that were equally more abundant and more potent – at least 10 times more potent – than immunity generated by vaccination alone," the authors wrote."

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-scientists-say-a-covid-infection-after-vaccination-triggers-super-immunity/MRTMRO73NMUUXNWVI6337NTMQU/

   Therefore, after Omicron has swept through, and a large proportion of the population has had it, there would seem to be no justification to continue on with vaccine mandates as we should be highly resistant to Covid going forward.
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     17 February 2022 at 7:13 am

     "Super-immunity" for the vaccinated who catch Covid?

     The Government should be loudly applauded for the vaccination rates it achieved through all of the methods it employed to reach such high rates.
   • Matiri 1.2

     17 February 2022 at 7:17 am

     A very small sample size of 100 blood samples exposed to Covid in the lab but results look promising.
   • tsmithfield 1.3

     17 February 2022 at 7:33 am

     Another article here if people are interested:

     https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220210-the-cells-that-can-give-you-super-immunity
   • Patricia Bremner 1.4

     17 February 2022 at 9:09 am

     We are not there yet. Yesterday you did not read a comment from me correctly, and you did not correct your mistake. There will be more deaths, as there will be a greater numbers sick both in QLD and Here

     To produce the results of a small study to talk down required health processes in a pandemic is not helpful. It is pleasing progress but not a signal to remove health measures.

     The majority of the protestors represent groups who have been disadvantaged in life or by the orders, sometimes for personal choices.

     Democracy is the majority vote for a party or aligned parties. Anything else where non elected groups gain control is anarchy. This is an emergency, as we do not have the facilities or the medical personnel to deal with a steep rise in omicron cases.

     It is milder in the fully vaccinated but still very dangerous to some with underlying conditions. Asthma heart disease and diabetes to name a few. People with these conditions are not always old.

     When Omicron has swept through

     Wow, you think it won't affect you. After our family's experience in NSW and QLD, I don't think you really have grasped what is coming, and will go on for some time absolutely flattening medical staff and many frontline workers leaving some with lifelong effects. Try not to be so glib.
     • tsmithfield 1.4.1

       17 February 2022 at 9:29 am

       Except it is not just one study, if you care to read the second link I put up:

       It looks like several studies are saying the same thing, and the results appear to be confirmed in the real world.

       "Over the last four months, the Rockefeller team's findings have been repeatedly observed in real life. People who have recovered from a Covid-19 infection in the past, and then been vaccinated, appear to be more resilient to the new variants, from Delta to Omicron.''

       "A recent study from scientists in Boston and South Africa found that people who had been previously infected with a form of Covid-19, before having two vaccine doses and a booster, had greater immunity against Omicron – the closest thing in real life to Rockefeller's artificial virus.''

       https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220210-the-cells-that-can-give-you-super-immunity
       • Shanreagh 1.4.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 9:34 am

         Studies will be plenty in coming. Surely you are not using these two studies to suggest a slackening of our Covid response just as Omicron is hitting us?

         Why would there be any justification to encourage people to chance luck on getting Omicron, vaccinated or not when instead of getting a super immunity the dice rolls and they get Long Covid.

         By all means study, study, study but 'two swallows do not a summer make'
         • tsmithfield 1.4.1.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 10:00 am

           No. If you read my first post, I suggest that once Omicron has gone through, many of us will likely have "super immunity" against future infection.

           At that point mandates should be unnecessary.
           • Shanreagh 1.4.1.1.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 11:53 am

             I think we all knew/know mandates will be unnecessary at some stage. PM has said so.
       • Patricia Bremner 1.4.1.2

         17 February 2022 at 11:15 am

         I am pleased this is being investigated.
     • Shanreagh 1.4.2

       17 February 2022 at 9:39 am

       Very well put Patricia

       You have nailed it with the paragraph:

       'To produce the results of a small study to talk down required health processes in a pandemic is not helpful. It is pleasing progress but not a signal to remove health measures.' My bolding.

       Our Omicron 'trial' has yet to hit us fully, some posters seem to forget that, certainly the protesters have as they are suggesting lifting health precautions before Omicron has hit us full force.
       • Patricia Bremner 1.4.2.1

         17 February 2022 at 9:51 am

         True. Grant is improving, but Robyn has another virus as well so is extremely unwell in hospital and we are anxious. It appalls me how cavalier some are about others lives. I hope he remains unscathed, but this is looking less likely.
         • tsmithfield 1.4.2.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 10:03 am

           I have family in Australia as well, so understand some of the reality over there. And I hope your family do well and recover.

           I am not trying to be flippant. Rather trying to show there is some rays of hope at the end of this.

           If anything, the studies shows the extreme value of getting vaccinated, and those that don't are deluded at best.
         • Molly 1.4.2.1.2

           17 February 2022 at 10:14 am

           I also have family in Australia who have contracted the virus, both through the Delta and Omicron strains.

           My sister, just recovering from Delta then contracted Omicron. She was hospitalised for treatment for Delta.

           It's a hard time to be separated from loved ones. All the best to you and yours.

           Omicron, unfortunately, will sweep through NZ.
           We are only going to truly understand how much impact these will have when we are standing on the other side looking back.
           • Patricia Bremner 1.4.2.1.2.1

             17 February 2022 at 11:05 am

             So true Molly. We have been so lucky so far, but truly my brother lives in a small settlement in Culburra NSW, he said they have 238 people in their local hospital from a population of 3500.
             • Molly …

               17 February 2022 at 12:04 pm

               My sister is rather stoic, and also caring for her grandchildren when she can. Since last seeing her, we have been through a close bereavement which she was unable to attend, and the most recent lockdown meant she missed the memorial as well. I suspect she also may have long Covid as she is still having respiratory difficulties. My mother is planning to visit for a couple of months in April, and I'm sure that for both of them, this will be a mixed reunion – joy, grief and relief all.

               The pandemic has given many the opportunity to evaluate what is important.

               The result for some, is to fully experience losses and joy.

               I hope you get to do the latter when you meet again.
               • Patricia Bremner …

                 17 February 2022 at 12:35 pm

                 thank you.
         • Rosemary McDonald 1.4.2.1.3

           17 February 2022 at 10:55 am

           Sorry to hear that your family is struggling with the virus Patricia, and here's hoping that with time they will recover.

           As a matter of interest…is there any interest in the Vitamin D levels in Covid patients in Australia? I know that here in NZ, and in many parts of the world, it is considered almost anti-vax to mention such matters but the evidence has been around for a while and is now gaining some traction with the poor performance of the mRNA products.

           Due to the highly contagious nature of COVID-19 and the increased morbidity and mortality with no appropriate therapy and vaccine, one must be cautious and do everything to help COVID-19 patients. In hospitals and other health care settings to decrease cross-contamination, holding other non-essential medications is taking place. Discontinuing Vitamins could increase the mortality and morbidity of those affected, especially in deficient/insufficient individuals. Obtaining serum 25 (OH) D levels in all patients with viral respiratory infections, especially COVID-19, could help in the detection and treatment of Vitamin D deficiency and potentially decrease recovery time and improve outcome. Even though evidence suggests that vitamin D has the anti-inflammatory, antiviral properties, randomized double-blinded controlled trials are needed to verify this further, and to understand Vitamin D and COVID-19 better.

           I have never been a pill taker. I have to be barely capable of walking before pain will force me to take a couple of panadol.

           But I have been taking (along with Peter) Vit D and K2 for the past couple of months. Awful joint pain is massively alleviated, and I'm sleeping better (some of the time) and I swear my brain is functioning slightly better. I have more energy. Neither Peter or I have partaken of the Pfizer product but we are not Covid deniers or irresponsible. We take precautions, without being neurotic, and try to eat well and be responsive if we feel we may have encountered Te Virus. Old tried and true interventions which have sadly been demonised in these strange times.

           Good luck to you.
           • Patricia Bremner 1.4.2.1.3.1

             17 February 2022 at 11:11 am

             Building up your immunity is a good thing. Thanks Rosemary. We have had both delta and omicron in family in Victoria NSW and now QLD. Their experiences tell us we think we are prepared but really we are not.
           • mikesh 1.4.2.1.3.2

             17 February 2022 at 1:55 pm

             People who spend a lot of time out of doors would probably have high levels of vitamin D. And the virus is said to be less contagious out of doors, so any apparent benefits from vitamin D may be merely coincidental. But that’s just my opinion.
             • Molly …

               17 February 2022 at 2:05 pm

               Woman in perimenopause often lose the ability to photosynthesise Vitamin D from the sun, even with large amounts of exposure.

               Of four woman friends of my advanced aged who tested for Vitamin D – all four were found to be severely deficient. I don't know if this is connected to the leaching of minerals from the body when childbearing or not, but I do know that it is an unlooked for and untreated Vitamin deficiency for many.

               The test itself will not be given without a clinical reason by the state. You will have to pay for it yourself. And even though my paid test revealed a severely deficient Vitamin D levels that required a daily dose for a week of high dose supplements, there is no 'clinical need' for a subsequent test to ensure that level is adequate. I'll have to pay for it again to check.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               17 February 2022 at 3:21 pm

               mikesh…the study, one of many published over the past decade or so, I linked to and quoted is not talking about Vit D's involvement in catching and transmitting respiratory viruses but how one's levels of Vit D might contribute towards the body's ability to fight off especially respiratory viruses.

               I have learned much about this over the past couple of years…. mostly restricting my reading to papers published prior to 2020.
         • mary_a 1.4.2.1.4

           17 February 2022 at 3:21 pm

           for Grant and Robyn, including yourself Patricia.

           Kia Kaha
           • Patricia Bremner 1.4.2.1.4.1

             17 February 2022 at 4:36 pm

             Thank you mary_a, Grant shows steady improvement but is suffering a case of brain fog. That is so bad in Robyn she did not recognise him on the 'phone.You can imagine the pain of that.

             We live in strange times and need to support each other in ways we never imagined. All those with sick family as mary_a says "kia kaha " better days will come.
   • McFlock 1.5

     17 February 2022 at 1:54 pm

     Therefore, after Omicron has swept through, and a large proportion of the population has had it, there would seem to be no justification to continue on with vaccine mandates as we should be highly resistant to Covid going forward.

     Assuming the combination of vaccine and infection infects a massive number of people (not something to cheer for) and still provides transmission protection against [looks up Ancient Greek alphabet] psi variant in two years or so, then what about the people born into a world where covid is globally endemic?

     If the dominant variants of covid evolve a few generations away into mild, so it's unlikely to jump back into a killer – maybe. But it's a function of lethality and transmission.

     You're still not thinking this through. You're looking for a key to get out of this, but really, we need to learn to live with it. Emphasis on "live". If not covid 19, then the next hyper-infectious disease to spread globally.
     • tsmithfield 1.5.1

       17 February 2022 at 2:52 pm

       You are right. We have to live with multitudes of infectious diseases now, and one day Covid will just be one of many in our background of infectious diseases.

       So, I am not sure what your point is.

       "then what about the people born into a world where covid is globally endemic?''

       People have always been born into a world where there is some endemic disease they have never encountered before due to the fact they have never existed in this world before. But that is a very trivial thing to say, so I am not sure why you are making a point of it.

       "If the dominant variants of covid evolve a few generations away into mild, so it's unlikely to jump back into a killer – maybe. But it's a function of lethality and transmission."

       "Mild" is both a function of the disease itself and herd immunity in the population to that disease.

       "You're looking for a key to get out of this, but really, we need to learn to live with it''

       Herd immunity is a good start as per the articles I pointed to. Other than that, we live with countless numbers of diseases now, so I don't really get your point.

       "Emphasis on "live". If not covid 19, then the next hyper-infectious disease to spread globally.''

       We have learned a lot as a species from Covid. Hopefully we can apply those lessons going forward.
       • McFlock 1.5.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 3:45 pm

         In case you haven't noticed, people born into a world of highly infectious disease with not vaccines either caught it and maybe died, or isolated under an outbreak burned itself out.

         If the population immunity isn't sufficient, people born into the covid world will need the vaccine. Mandate continues.

         Your idea for the end of mandates is based on "if". If the proportion of unvaccinated is small enough to not make a mathematical impossibility of a large enough proportion of the population being vaccinated and gotten omicron, then NZ will be fine – until the proportion of unvaccinated people rises again (called births).

         If a new variant emerges with further distance from the virus that the vaccines were designed to fight, your "if" becomes less likely. So maybe we'll need mandates permanently in many professions. Maybe not to the extent we need them today, but for a lot of people what was "recommended" in 2019 will be mandatory. Keep up with your vaccinations, or you're out.
         • tsmithfield 1.5.1.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 4:11 pm

           "In case you haven't noticed, people born into a world of highly infectious disease with not vaccines either caught it and maybe died, or isolated under an outbreak burned itself out.''

           It is a good thing we have vaccines for most diseases dangerous to children then (sigh).

           But, we don't tend to give children the flu vaccine because a lot of diseases tend to be more dangerous to adults than children. From what I have read, the only young children who have died from Covid in Australia have had severe underlying conditions, sad as it was.

           But I expect we will eventually get annual vaccines for Covid as well. Perhaps it could be incorporated into the annual flu vaccine. Who knows.
           • McFlock 1.5.1.1.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 4:41 pm

             Firstly, fuck off with the "underlying conditions" bullshit. Vulnerable people deserve to live, too.

             Secondly, covid is not the flu.

             Thirdly, annual shots are one thing – but whether those vaccinations are mandatory for all or some is another.

             Yes, we do have vaccines for lots of diseases. But where the few nutters could cause isolated and controllable clusters of, say, measles, we might still need everyone who can to be vaccinated, or somewhat isolated if they refuse.
             • tsmithfield …

               17 February 2022 at 5:03 pm

               "Firstly, fuck off with the "underlying conditions" bullshit. Vulnerable people deserve to live, too.''

               You are being disingenuous. You know very well that I am saying that Covid does not seem to be a major problem for children unless there is an unusual reason for it.

               I agree children with underlying conditions deserve to live, as we all do. But, sometimes, people have such serious conditions that they are vulnerable to any extra illness load, whatever the virus.

               "Secondly, covid is not the flu.''

               I wasn't aware that there was a singular ''the flu'' virus. If you are saying it is not "a'' flu, then define what a ''flu'' actually is, and why Covid isn't that.

               ''Thirdly, annual shots are one thing – but whether those vaccinations are mandatory for all or some is another.''

               Mandatory vaccination is in conflict with clause 11 of the bill of rights. If you think it should be mandatory, do you think we should be holding people down and shoving it into their arms?

               ''we might still need everyone who can to be vaccinated, or somewhat isolated if they refuse.''

               How long do you think people will put up with that in a free an democratic society? If strong herd immunity develops as per my opening post, then this should not be necessary going forward. Not with Covid, anyway.
               • McFlock …

                 17 February 2022 at 5:11 pm

                 You are being disingenuous. You know very well that I am saying that Covid does not seem to be a major problem for children unless there is an unusual reason for it.

                 So what? Go on, say the quiet bit out loud.
               • McFlock …

                 17 February 2022 at 7:28 pm

                 Go on, why are "underlying conditions" relevant? Even if a kid is at death's door, they shouldn't have covid available to carry them over the threshold. Preventing those deaths should be just as important as preventing the deaths of anyone else.
   • Craig H 1.6

     17 February 2022 at 2:21 pm

     On current Covid evolution trends, I can't see us retaining mandates or restriction frameworks on a wide scale beyond this year, if that long, and likewise for MIQ. The PM certainly didn't sound like she was keen to continue with them unless health advice was that it was still necessary. Maybe there would still be some justification for workers who will come into contact with Covid regularly in their work e.g. those who deal with international passengers and health workers.

     Until we've reached the other side of the wave, the effectiveness of both being vaccinated and contracting Covid suggests to me at least that vaccine mandates and restrictions still have a place.

     If Covid evolved further to become significantly more lethal, then restrictions would probably return/remain, but whether to use a version of the old level system or the current framework would come down to whether the vaccines were still effective and how transmissible the new variant was.

     If we ended up with a variant that was more transmissible than Omicron, immune to vaccines and as lethal as something like Diphtheria (5-10% fatality rate) or Smallpox (30% fatality rate), not sure how that would be handled – probably a strong version of the levels and very strict MIQ protocols or even a total border closure. If it was the same but vaccines still had a strong effectiveness rate, then the framework would be fine but might need beefing up to try to keep unvaccinated people from dying.
2. Chris T 2

   17 February 2022 at 8:33 am

   Omicron hits Starship Children's Hospital.

   

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-variant-outbreak-at-starship-childrens-hospital-12-cases-confirmed/UPF643XKU3OVFRGOD46YV7XMBY/
3. Rosemary McDonald 3

   17 February 2022 at 9:56 am

   Note to Moderator.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-16-02-2022/#comment-1863789

   I thought making wild and inaccurate accusations without any supporting evidence was frowned upon?

   Thanks in anticipation for your attention to this.
   • Barfly 3.1

     17 February 2022 at 12:23 pm

     Do you expect them to read the entire "Daily review"?

     Please provide some more details for the moderaters.
     • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

       17 February 2022 at 1:07 pm

       The link I posted was to the date/time stamp…I have done this before successfully. I have no idea why it failed to work.

       https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-16-02-2022/#comment-1863789

       Shanreagh

       17 February 2022 at 12:37 am

       As you are very well aware these Vaers posts are self reported and any and all sorts of rubbish not caused by the vaccines are posted there.

       The only things worth looking at are the figures that have been analysed. It is just raw data. I only pay attention to the analyses. As the topic has been discussed on here exhaustively I can only assume that you are disregarding the value and limitations of this reporting for your own purposes.

       So I am very happy with my vaccination experiences.

       In reply to my comment at 16 February 2022 at 9:40 pm which was in reply to Muttonbird.

       Of course you are following the weekly fortnightly monthly Medsafe reports?

       You'll be aware then that in the month covered in the latest report the number of reports of anaphylaxis has tripled. Yes, tripled.

       For the year to 31st December 2021 there were 112 reports of anaphylaxis from the Pfizer product. To the 31st January…353.

       Let that sink in for a bit.

       The number of reports of Myo/pericarditis has gone up too…from 455 to 561…but its still very rare/sarc

       Deaths up from 133 to 147… but of course they're only acknowledging two of them.

       But you're all good Muttonbird?

       That's all that matters then.
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 5:24 pm

         For a long time now, if you put a TS link in a line of its own it reverts to the post URL. Instead, put something just before the link eg a full stop.

         These two are exactly the same URL, first one works because of the full stop.

         . https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-16-02-2022/#comment-1863789

         https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-16-02-2022/#comment-1863789
       • weka 3.1.1.2

         17 February 2022 at 5:42 pm

         What's the problem? Shanreagh mistook the MoH site for Vaers (here's another really good reason to stop embedding links, then people can see what they go to). Their point applies to the MoH site as well as far as I can tell.

         btw, I suggested to you yesterday to do a reply to me, because mods don't read comments in real time. Here you are instead making a stand alone comment which I've only just seen. Next suggestion is to slow down, and follow moderator directions.
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.2.1

           17 February 2022 at 6:31 pm

           So why is there the facility for embedding links?

           You'd think if a reader saw the blue print they'd click and read…no?

           Perhaps not.

           Shanreagh…ably abetted by McFlock, failed to click and read and went flying off the handle making assertions (and barely veiled ad homs) about something I had not referenced at all.

           And again failed to check when I challenged.

           Finally Shanreagh admitted error (laziness, contempt for my posts?) but it is too late. And not at all genuine as they persist in transferring the same criticisms of VAERS onto CARM. https://nzphvc.otago.ac.nz/carm/

           Their point applies to the MoH site as well as far as I can tell.

           What point are they making? And why does it apply to the MOH site as far as you can tell?

           If CARM and the regular Safety Reports are of no use whatsoever why are they published?
           • weka 3.1.1.2.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 6:49 pm

             So why is there the facility for embedding links?

             Because sometimes they're useful and elegant I guess. Sometimes they're just a pain, like in fast moving, contentious debates.

             You'd think if a reader saw the blue print they'd click and read…no?

             Actually no. The onus is on the person making a point to make it as clearly as possible. Lots of people don't have time, including mods. Making it transparent helps the debate.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               17 February 2022 at 9:41 pm

               Okay…then why on earth would someone reply to another's post…specifically to denigrate and insult.. when they haven't bothered to actually properly read the entire post.

               This is most certainly not entering into a good faith debate.

               Its something else entirely.
               • weka …

                 17 February 2022 at 9:49 pm

                 This is what Shanreagh said (link upthread),

                 As you are very well aware these Vaers posts are self reported and any and all sorts of rubbish not caused by the vaccines are posted there.

                 The only things worth looking at are the figures that have been analysed. It is just raw data. I only pay attention to the analyses. As the topic has been discussed on here exhaustively I can only assume that you are disregarding the value and limitations of this reporting for your own purposes.

                 So I am very happy with my vaccination experiences.

                 This seems well within TS commenting culture. They make a mistake re vaers, but what they are saying applies to the MoH. The points are clear, there's no personal abuse, they've explained something technical and they've expressed an opinion about your argument.
               • McFlock …

                 17 February 2022 at 10:03 pm

                 I saw a comment suggesting a reasonable commenter had made "wild and inaccurate accusations without any supporting evidence". I was curious to see whether that commenter had dropped the ball enough to warrant dragging a disagreement into the following day's open mike.

                 I clicked on the link further down the thread to an actual comment, and the comment seemed reasonable to me. And covered well-travelled ground about an adverse events database. That has been discussed ad nauseum.

                 Apparently it should have referred to other adverse events reports that have been discussed ad nauseum. However, this was a bit unclear, as your description of the problem simply involved two large cut&pastes.

                 So I responded to the bit that seemed reasonable, based on what your problem seemed to be, as best as I could determine.

                 BTW, the wider point applies across VAERS and CARM because they're the same sorts of tools for different countries. They prefer redundant or multiple reports for every event (even events people think are coincidences), rather than people assuming someone else filed the report so nobody files. They can only collate and filter out data, not filter in.
           • weka 3.1.1.2.1.2

             17 February 2022 at 6:50 pm

             Their point applies to the MoH site as well as far as I can tell.

             What point are they making? And why does it apply to the MOH site as far as you can tell?

             If CARM and the regular Safety Reports are of no use whatsoever why are they published?

             Pretty sure those have already been answered
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               17 February 2022 at 9:53 pm

               No. They haven't been answered.

               My understanding is that the CARM is were the raw data is collected and Medsafe is just one of the agencies that uses that raw data to create reports.

               https://nzphvc.otago.ac.nz/carm/

               CARM

               Analysis↑
               The CARM database provides New Zealand-specific information on adverse reactions to medicines and vaccines. CARM monitors and analyses the database for the identification of new signals, or important patterns, clusters or unusual events or practices that could have significance for medicine safety and prescribing practices in New Zealand

               Database extracts↑
               The CARM database is the source for regular report outputs that support NZ Pharmacovigilance. These include:

               Medsafe – Regular reports are often generated to support the ongoing monitoring in special situations and in the early phases of the use of new products such as the seasonal influenza immunisation programme or the introduction of new vaccine. CARM also has a weekly teleconference with Medsafe which facilitates discussion around issues of pharmacovigilance relevance to New Zealand.

               This process of monitoring the safety of pharmaceuticals is by necessity a real time, constantly up- dated process. Else what is the point? Too late when six months down the track they process the raw data and discover a very significant safety signal. No?
   • McFlock 3.2

     17 February 2022 at 2:14 pm

     The self-reporting nature of VAERS and the associated issues concerning data validity have been covered on this site many times.

     This from last month, for example:

     And, as always, VAERS has the caveat that anyone can submit a report and say what they like. So at least one individual was abducted by aliens in temporal proximity to receiving the MMR vaccine.

     Comments about the limits of VAERS (not criticisms, it does what it is supposed to do, but it is a tool for a very precise purpose) have been repeated regularly for the last few years, every time some nutbar tries to do the data equivalent of hammering a nail with a coping saw.

     I'm surprised you've missed all previous discussions of it.
     • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1

       17 February 2022 at 3:11 pm

       For fucks sakes. Jesus wept. What is wrong with you people?

       I did not mention VAERS in my original post.

       Shanreagh pulled VAERS out from godknowswhere in their comment to me.

       Whilst carefully ignoring the very latest "Safety" Report from Medsafe that I linked to.

       Why the fuck would I refer to VAERS when it is based in the US?

       I referred to our very own government run reporting ' Covid vaccine adverse effects' system.

       I'm surprised you failed to to see that. Your comprehension skills lacking? Too many words for you to cope with at one go?

       Now..in the interests of you not being a complete and utter fuckwit… do you have anything to say about the number of reported cases of anaphylaxis after a Covid shot tripling within a month?

       You being a keen numbers guy I assume you're following these safety reports? I assume you have noticed that over half of the reports are from nurses, doctors, pharmacists, vaccinators and 'other'?

       Great distraction that, bringing up VAERS.
       • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 3:29 pm

         Sorry my fault I meant our own system, from Medsafe.

         This is a database that collects information. Until that info has been tested and examined, that it is all it is. To make conclusions before this analysis has been done is very misleading.
         • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 3:42 pm

           My response of 16/2/22

           Rosemary, we have been through the value or not of these reports many many times on TS.

           I actually follow them too.

           Public patients are by far the most 21, 000 odd. This is what I call raw data and these are among the ones that will be researched to see if they meet the criteria.

           We have had two deaths, subject to Coroners opinions. Many treatments or procedures have averse consequences, just try reading the Medsafe leaflet for any commonly prescribed tablets etc.

           Unlike you I don't have any great faith in my fellow country people to know the causation/correlation between the vaccines and illnesses. However without anyone providing the raw data we would not have the material for professionals to work through.

           I think that for people in the street to make conclusions when they know nothing about the topic is what I call rubbish.

           From what I can see the database is just being sorted by the owners of the database. This is commonly done when any public comments are sought and people are looking through them.

           Any day of the week you can look at local authorities/govt depts who have sought comments or input from the public. Any day of the week these are being sorted and any day of the week they are being analysed after they have been grouped. Some of the comments/input sought are time limited others are ongoing.

           Until the reports behind the collection of inputs are analysed then it is just that, a collection of inputs. The so-called analysing at this stage by unqualified members of the public and the extrapolation that goes on is what I call 'rubbish'
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.1.2

           17 February 2022 at 5:00 pm

           Who is "making conclusions" ? I was merely conveying what the site has recorded.
           • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1.2.1

             17 February 2022 at 5:23 pm

             For what purpose seeing as the info has yet to be analysed, just a collection of raw data with no conclusions.

             Your post was very 'shock horror' for one that was only conveying raw data that has yet to be interpreted etc.
       • McFlock 3.2.1.2

         17 February 2022 at 3:33 pm

         You complained about inaccuracy in Shanreagh's comment "without supporting evidence". So I provided supporting evidence.

         As for medsfe, assuming they filter out the alien abductions from the NZ reporting system…

         Now..in the interests of you not being a complete and utter fuckwit… do you have anything to say about the number of reported cases of anaphylaxis after a Covid shot tripling within a month?

         Yeah. It's still fuckall out of 9,454,911 doses. Probably well within the confidence intervals. Even if every event were related to the vaccine.
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.2.1

           17 February 2022 at 5:13 pm

           You really have sunk deep down the rabbit hole haven't you? To harp back to the VAERS system y'all like to focus on… one commentary is that if the vaccine adverse effects system is so broken…why don't the US government agencies who set it up fix the fucking thing?

           So what you are saying is that there is nothing at all significant about the total number of reports of anaphylaxis tripling in a one month period?

           How can that happen? Did Medsafe decide to simply dump a whole lot of anaphylaxis complaints they had not added to previous Safety Reports into this latest one? Why would they do this?

           And the same criticism would apply to our vaccine safety system…if its broke…fix the damn thing. Or else what purpose does it serve?

           And I presume you statistical experts do download the actual raw data from the bottom of each Safety Report?

           Latest listing of all cases received

           The latest listing of AEFIs received is included in the attached spreadsheet. Medsafe advises patients NOT to make any decisions about vaccination based on information contained here.

           Download AEFI-line-listing.xlsm
           • Nic the NZer 3.2.1.2.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 5:38 pm

             "So what you are saying is that there is nothing at all significant about the total number of reports of anaphylaxis tripling in a one month period?"

             If you look at reports 38, 39 and 40 they report total doses administered cumulatively. These are

             Nov-2021 = 7726319 doses

             Dec-2021 = 8184892 doses

             Jan-2022 = 9454911 doses

             Taking the differences

             the doses in December were 458,573.

             the doses in January were 1,270,019.

             This is very rough but, broadly speaking 3x as many doses were delivered in January as the month before. So 3x the rate of reports is hardly surprising.

             https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-38.asp

             https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-39.asp

             https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-40.asp
             • McFlock …

               17 February 2022 at 6:02 pm

               Hmmm. But then the reports should be done by month, too. So nov 103 Anaphylaxis, dec 112, jan 353: that's 9 for December and 240-odd for January. Which is actually getting to pretty big rate differences, by the pricking in my thumbs.

               Whether the data's good, or late, or whatever… who knows. I'm not worried just yet.
               • Nic the NZer …

                 17 February 2022 at 6:24 pm

                 Its a completely insufficient analysis of the data. The only point is to highlight that Medsafe reports are not ignoring an important issue (while presenting it in broad daylight) and you should refer to their much better analysis of safety signals.
                 • McFlock …

                   17 February 2022 at 6:38 pm

                   yeah true.
           • McFlock 3.2.1.2.1.2

             17 February 2022 at 5:42 pm

             one commentary is that if the vaccine adverse effects system is so broken…why don't the US government agencies who set it up fix the fucking thing?

             It's not "broken". It's a scoop. Contents of the scoop are then analysed by people who aren't morons in order to find data that can lead to useful information with further analysis. Some folks like to use the scoop as a pneumatic drill, a purpose for which it was neither designed nor is it capable of fulfilling.

             So what you are saying is that there is nothing at all significant about the total number of reports of anaphylaxis tripling in a one month period?

             If the word is used to mean "statistically significant", i.e. the variation is outside the expected norms for that period, it might be "significant". It might not be significant. The numbers are small compared to the denominators. There might be a reporting lag. There might be an increase in the number of reports if ten people report the same incident, especially with some folks outright making up stories about people collapsing in vaccination centres, maybe they're filing reports too.

             So actual researchers examine the reports and figure out how many people were affected, what factors they have in common, and what can be done to lower the number. But they don't go "tripling within a month" and lose their shit. They do actual research, which is then examined and replicated by other actual researchers. Then someone who knows what they're talking about updates the publicly available information, issues a statement, and then has to take extra care about their personal security until the nutbars quiet down.
       • Shanreagh 3.2.1.3

         17 February 2022 at 3:39 pm

         Agree McFlock. Why are lay people still trying to interpret this data?

         While they may sieve out interpalnetary addresses they will still have, paricualalry in the patient provided detials some very hairy conclusins about vaccines and these are entered with no moderation at input time.

         Analysis comes much later. To get enough entries on which to carry out a scientific analysis the net is set wide with the expectation that the dross will be removed when the analysis has been done.
         • Barfly 3.2.1.3.1

           17 February 2022 at 4:47 pm

           In my experience people mostly make an emotional decision and then spend their intellect arguing for it afterwards
           • McFlock 3.2.1.3.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 5:00 pm

             Even actual researchers. But that's why they throw shit around to each other (sorry, "peer review" formally and informally) and try some systematic article research techniques.

             Even then some big calls took a while to be accepted as actually being true – germ theory & continental drift come to mind.
         • Shanreagh 3.2.1.3.2

           17 February 2022 at 4:59 pm

           Heavens I ran out of time to correct the spelling and it shows….sorry.
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.3.3

           17 February 2022 at 5:18 pm

           Analysis comes much later.

           So, the purpose of gathering this information from vaccine recipients is what? Why release a regular Report? Why the Summary of safety signals chart towards the end of each report?

           So many questions.
           • Shanreagh 3.2.1.3.3.1

             17 February 2022 at 5:31 pm

             It can give an unfiltered and uninvestigated heads up to people who know what they are looking at. It is not meant for interested 'irks and jerks' like you and me to be drawing any conclusions, we just do not have the experience, training and the actual raw data to look at and investigate.

             Can you imagine the conspiracy theories that would arise if NZ Govt said 'oh by the way we are inviting people to contribute but we are not letting anyone look at it'

             NZ has had an Official Info Act since 1982 and one of the purposes is

             'to increase progressively the availability of official information to the people of New Zealand in order—

             (i)

             to enable their more effective participation in the making and administration of laws and policies; and

             (ii)

             to promote the accountability of Ministers of the Crown and officials,—

             and thereby to enhance respect for the law and to promote the good government of New Zealand:…….."

             I just do not see the point in making too much of this before it is analysed.
           • Matiri 3.2.1.3.3.2

             17 February 2022 at 6:45 pm

             It is raw data, just that, raw data. Once it has been collated, validated and put into context, it becomes information that can be acted upon.

             You do come across as rather unaware shall we say, of anything in the slightest bit technical.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               17 February 2022 at 10:01 pm

               Show me the raw data. Which agency collects it? Then what do they do with it?

               Show me where this has been 'collated, validated and put into context..'

               Other than through CARM…https://nzphvc.otago.ac.nz/carm/

               Because we technotwits need all the help we can get.
4. Adrian 4

   17 February 2022 at 10:12 am

   A family member who is a dispatcher for a major freight firm told me this morning that they are already having big problems picking up from factories and warehouses because of shortness of staff. The next month is going to be pretty difficult by the look of it.
5. joe90 5

   17 February 2022 at 10:30 am

   Thread

   https://twitter.com/psirides/status/1494041990023249920

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1494041990023249920.html
   • Ad 5.1

     17 February 2022 at 10:34 am

     The 30 are worth the read.

     Good link.
     • Shanreagh 5.1.1

       17 February 2022 at 3:53 pm

       Great isn't it.
   • Robert Guyton 5.2

     17 February 2022 at 10:38 am

     Thanks for that list.

     Very useful, though I expect none who need to read it, will.
     • Rosemary McDonald 5.2.1

       17 February 2022 at 11:07 am

       I read it. I tend to follow embedded links which will hopefully take me to peer reviewed research that will verify the claim being defended.

       The first such links I followed to me to other pages on this author's blog.

       Hmmm…not a good start is it? I set a high bar.

       A bit like Stuff's Whole Truth series…A link within a debunking article that links to another debunking article from the same stable, which links to yet another debunking article is totally shit debunking.

       IMHO
       • Macro 5.2.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 1:36 pm

         So you like to cherry pick your authors? That was the first link – explaining the falsehood of cherry picking.
       • Shanreagh 5.2.1.2

         17 February 2022 at 5:00 pm

         There are lots of references right at the end.
   • Blazer 5.3

     17 February 2022 at 11:54 am

     Interesting,according to your link Omicron is far more dangerous than previous strains.i.e death,more likely

     14x compared to Omicron 68x!

     for October (the most recent complete month at the time I’m writing this; see update below) showed that, compared to vaccinated individuals, unvaccinated individuals were 5 times more likely to test positive for COVID and 14 times more likely to die from COVID (also see Yek et al. 2022)!

     I

     Update 30-1-2022: The updated CDC data (going through December 25 2021) show that the unvaccinated are 13X more likely to test positive for COVID and 68X more likely to die from COVID, compared to people with three doses of the vaccine.
     • McFlock 5.3.1

       17 February 2022 at 2:20 pm

       Interesting,according to your link Omicron is far more dangerous than previous strains.i.e death,more likely

       A comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who get omicron is not a comparison between omicron and anything else.
       • Blazer 5.3.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 2:35 pm

         The comparison I mentioned is about unvaccinated in October 2021 compared to unvaccinated in January 2022,and their 'likeliehood of dying'-i.e 14x more in Oct vs 68x more in Jan.

         That is a significant difference.

         Correct me if I'm wrong in thinking Omicron was not prevalent in Oct 2021.

         Are not Delta and Omicron both Covid variants and the very same vaccines have been administered to deal with each?
         • Nic the NZer 5.3.1.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 2:50 pm

           Its not a comparison of disease risks, its a comparison of how much protection vaccination offers, in those multiples.

           Though I would have intuitively expected less difference in protection for Omicron, not more. Its plausible that vaccination is keeping people much further from the level of sickness where it kills them, compared to unvaccinated, even though its also less deadly for unvaccinated.
           • Blazer 5.3.1.1.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 3:03 pm

             So ignore the variants as any factor then.

             So are the unvaccinated now more at risk …or not?
             • Nic the NZer …

               17 February 2022 at 3:17 pm

               "So are the unvaccinated now more at risk …or not?"

               We don't know from that statement either way. The statement claims from the unknown baseline they will be 68x better off if vaccinated now, but 14x better off in October however.

               The unknown-ness of the base line in not that relevant anyway because it depends on all the things effecting transmission and infection risk anyway. For example about Jan, Feb, Mar of 2021 the virus wasn't in NZ so going around in a mask was not protecting anybody. But at the same time in the US and UK there was real risk of becoming infected.
               • Blazer …

                 17 February 2022 at 8:21 pm

                 So is going around in a mask in Feb 2022 in NZ …/protecting ..anyone?
                 • McFlock …

                   17 February 2022 at 8:46 pm

                   ……..y…………….e………………………………………………………………………………………………………….s..
                   • Blazer …

                     17 February 2022 at 8:56 pm

                     As your mentor Pauline Hanson would say…please ..explain!
                   • McFlock …

                     17 February 2022 at 9:13 pm

                     Well, what happened there was you asked a question and I answered it, but I added lots of punctuation in order to make light of your unconventional grammatical style.
6. lprent 6

   17 February 2022 at 10:38 am

   Another day, another inbox filled with messages like the following. At some times in a day it is pretty continuous.

   So far 'today' (UTC timezone) we have had 24,077 attempts repelled of varying levels of complexity, and that is just in the mid-layer defences. There will be a similar number in the exterior DDoS defences. Plus of course the attacks trough other ports.

   Fortunately there are few that get through to the interior defences.

   ---

   thestandard.org.nz Increased Attack Rate

   This email was sent from your website "The Standard" by the XXX plugin at Thursday 17th of February 2022 at 08:24:56 AM Below is a sample of these recent attacks:

   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 2405:201:a407:80b2:d4ea:1a1e:f577:b361 (India) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 101.117.2.48 (Australia) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 101.117.2.48 (Australia) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 79.69.50.193 (United Kingdom) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 79.69.50.193 (United Kingdom) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 2a02:a211:a82:c800:2c4f:4630:2874:65bc (Netherlands) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:24pm 2a02:a211:a82:c800:2c4f:4630:2874:65bc (Netherlands) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:23pm 2405:201:a407:80b2:d4ea:1a1e:f577:b361 (India) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:23pm 2405:201:a407:80b2:d4ea:1a1e:f577:b361 (India) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   February 16, 2022 7:23pm 101.117.2.48 (Australia) Blocked for Known malicious User-Agents
   • Molly 6.1

     17 February 2022 at 12:05 pm

     "So far 'today' (UTC timezone) we have had 24,077 attempts repelled of varying levels of complexity, and that is just in the mid-layer defences."

     lprent – is that the usual, or has it increased?
     • lprent 6.1.1

       17 February 2022 at 3:47 pm

       That is a pretty major increase over the last few months. I used to get one of these notifications about once a week. Now I'm getting more than 100 per day.

       They only get sent out when there are more than 100 attempts noticed in a 10 minute period, I'm probably only getting a peak sampling.

       Each IP gets blocked for malicious content immediately for about 5 minutes.
       • weka 6.1.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 5:47 pm

         what are they trying to do?
         • lprent 6.1.1.1.1

           18 February 2022 at 12:02 pm

           In this case probably to insert do one of the following..

           • Inject code into the site using one of the known wordpress/php buffer issues or access points to grab site control.
           • Inject client size malware into the site as a comment or a post so it infects the computers of people reading the site – typically by a link.

           This isn't exactly abnormal. We get tens of millions of these attempts per year normally. You see the occasional comment flow into moderation. We have only had one breach. That was back in 2008 when someone managed to do a file rewrite on a footer file due to a file permission issue after moving the site to a different machine.

           What is abnormal is the current rate of attempts.
           • Molly 6.1.1.1.1.1

             18 February 2022 at 12:05 pm

             Thanks, was wondering the same as weka.
           • weka 6.1.1.1.1.2

             18 February 2022 at 12:07 pm

             • Inject code into the site using one of the known wordpress/php buffer issues or access points to grab site control.
             • Inject client size malware into the site as a comment or a post so it infects the computers of people reading the site – typically by a link.

             What's the purpose of those?
7. Ad 7

   17 February 2022 at 12:02 pm

   If the Crown accounts and the income to the government from the buoyant economy are that good, it's time for tax cuts.

   Crown Accounts Reflect Resilient Economy | Scoop News

   There's not much else that's going to get this government a third term.

   Which in 2022 is what we are playing for.
   • Blade 7.1

     17 February 2022 at 12:22 pm

     Where's the businesses indicators of this great economy?

     Quote from ADs link:

     Robbo Robertson:

     “This better-than-expected result shows the strength of the economy as restrictions in response to the Delta outbreak were eased. Once again it demonstrates that our health-led approach since the start of the pandemic to protect lives and jobs and livelihoods has been the right one,” Grant Robertson said.''

     That's not what business owners are telling talkback.

     Now for the good oil on what's really happening:

     Quote from Mikey:

     ''No, I'm not for spending endless amounts of money we don’t have, but I am for fairness. Stop the school sandwiches or the cameras on the fishing boats or the marae renovations or all the other crap you’ve used the Covid fund for and help the people who drive the economy.''

     https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/video/mikes-minute-small-businesses-are-paying-the-price/
     • Barfly 7.1.1

       17 February 2022 at 12:29 pm

       Government by talkback – that's a great idea.
       • Blade 7.1.1.1

         17 February 2022 at 12:35 pm

         It beats government by government.
         • Peter 7.1.1.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 1:44 pm

           Beats government by government? Yeah, let's use the opportunity to change things up. Let's go to a local pub or two, grab the village idiot there who knows everything, get Bishop Tamaki, Billy Te Kahika, Philip Arps a demented wahine from Te Tai Tokerau who thinks vaccines are the devil's sperm and a woman from Whanganui who thinks vaccines cause autism. They can be the government. Oh with Mike Hosking of course.

           How would that work? Let's see… Tamaki will think he should be in charge because he has a direct line to God.

           Billy TK has claimed billionaires have developed weaponised viruses to enslave humanity so he knows his stuff and has the global perspective. Of course his followers agree with him but his credibility is a tad lower than it was since one of his claims didn't come to fruition. "He's claimed the government was authorising military to enter people's homes, and is planning to implement forced vaccinations."

           The women? They'd be there not just for gender balance but for loony lack of science balance.

           Ah, Mike. Tamaki might think he has a direct line to God, but trumping him will be Mike, because Mike thinks he is God.

           Arps? I didn't deliberately miss him out, there's one slight problem with him in the group – whisper this – some of them have brown skin!

           How about we just let them sort it out. Arps and Alps will get the dipsticks, deluded, misguided, terminally stupid, tourists and hippy grannies to storm Parliament and take over the country. When they're in charge they can sort things out. Imagine it, Brett Power could get to be the head of the Intelligence Services without having a brain transplant.
           • Blade 7.1.1.1.1.1

             17 February 2022 at 2:13 pm

             Any comments about my post?

             Here.. this is how it COULD be done.

             ''Mikey is full of bs because those supposed marae renovations up North had been signalled previously by the government. The Covid fund was considered a legitimate funding source given the high number of unvaxxed Maori would mean a higher mortality rate from Covid. Therefore a functional marae for tangi would be considered appropriate.

             As for schools providing meals for children from impoverished families. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with obviously well feed middleclass kids in a decile 8 school, skipping breakfast at home so they can enjoy Weet-bix with blueberries and a treat at school.

             Cameras on fishing boats should be a no brainer, you RWNJ

             Fishing is a capitalist enterprise. They poison us with fish containing high levels of mercury and they are racist towards Asian fisher people and crew. Plus.. and this is a biggy!!! They have been caught dumping perfectly good fish over the side at sea.

             You and Mikey can fuck off.

             .
           • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1.1.1.2

             17 February 2022 at 5:02 pm

             Peter.
             • Blade …

               17 February 2022 at 9:04 pm

               
     • Ad 7.1.2

       17 February 2022 at 12:34 pm

       Mikey might want to confess the $$volume of taxpayer subsidy received.
     • Craig H 7.1.3

       17 February 2022 at 3:02 pm

       Most economy-wide indicators are remarkably strong given a pandemic and global economic conditions.
       • Blade 7.1.3.1

         17 February 2022 at 3:16 pm

         That's what I can't understand.

         And debt as a percentage of GDP is still reasonable comparative to other countries.

         I don't see it from my personal experience. Business is not seeing it. But the government is.. and is providing the figures?

         I'm interested to see what unfolds.
         • Barfly 7.1.3.1.1

           17 February 2022 at 5:08 pm

           Blade

           My nephew works for a saddler/upholsterer been there a few years – business would normally die down in December and his boss would be running around trying to scare up whatever work he could. They are currently flat out with work backed up the wazoo and have been so for months. There is plenty of business activity out there Blade – it's just in different places than it was.
         • KJT 7.1.3.1.2

           17 February 2022 at 6:16 pm

           Our business is doing much better than three years ago. We are not alone.

           Who would have thought people spending their money locally, and local wages going up is good for business!
           Blade is full of it like most right wingers.
           • Blade 7.1.3.1.2.1

             17 February 2022 at 8:57 pm

             Why do I have to be full of it?

             Because my opinion differs to yours?

             In my opinion there is something not right with what Robbo is saying. I don't know what it is. So I'm waiting to see if I'm right or wrong.

             @ Barfly.

             ''There is plenty of business activity out there Blade – it's just in different places than it was.''

             Could be. I haven't given that any consideration before.
             • KJT …

               18 February 2022 at 4:28 am

               Because your "opinion" is not supported by the facts.

               In reality the economic activity is, as Barfly said, happening. Just in different places. Capitalism! Eh?
               • Blade …

                 18 February 2022 at 6:15 am

                 Maybe you are right. As I say, I'm going to wait. Who knows, the facts may catch up with my opinion?
   • Craig H 7.2

     17 February 2022 at 2:25 pm

     I can think of other things to spend money on like better welfare provisions and even debt to pay down, but rather than specific tax cuts, would be better to move the income thresholds first.
     • Ad 7.2.1

       17 February 2022 at 3:34 pm

       Moving the income thresholds is a tax cut.

       Unless you're thinking of the benefit income thresholds, which they just moved.
       • Craig H 7.2.1.1

         18 February 2022 at 3:53 pm

         I meant tax brackets which I agree have the effect of cutting tax, but it would be better to do that than just lower the rates because of other things like minimum wage (and living wage) catching up to the 30% bracket very rapidly, and the independent earner tax credit being swamped. Brackets are also easier to index than tax rates.
         • Ad 7.2.1.1.1

           18 February 2022 at 3:54 pm

           Full agreement.
   • Blazer 7.3

     17 February 2022 at 3:14 pm

     'We have pre-existing problems in the NZ economy that pre-date the appearance of COVID-19. We can kid ourselves that the economic framework is strong and healthy, yet the plain truth is that the economy was running on steroids prior to COVID-19 and then the pandemic just exacerbated existing bad trends and further entrenched them. We have become fundamentally over-reliant on government spending and house price growth to 'juice' our GDP figures. We look at some indictators and we think that the economy is healthy, and we may even think it is getting stronger. But look past what these indicators are showing and there is a frail substructure that existed prior to the pandemic & it will have only got weaker while we have gone through this latest 'sugar hit' phase.'

     Poster on ST NZ …reality check.
8. Molly 8

   17 February 2022 at 2:51 pm

   Care of vulnerable children in the UK. Private care service opened in August 2021, and shut down in January 2022.

   Given the result of the inspections, it's good that it was immediately closed.

   Bolton children’s home shut down for ‘serious and widespread failures’ – Guardian

   "A children’s home in Bolton has been shut down after inspectors found that one boy had not bathed, changed his clothes or been provided with a home-cooked meal since he arrived in September 2021.

   Inexperienced and underqualified staff had not entered one bedroom for more than four months despite evidence of flies and “a pungent smell” that spread throughout the home, Ofsted inspectors discovered.

   Another child was placed at risk of harm by staff carrying out “unnecessary” cardiac pulmonary resuscitation on them.

   After the inspection on 5 and 6 January, Ofsted took immediate action and suspended the registration of the home."

   Would like to know what their contract conditions were, and how much was paid to the home for such neglect?

   Would also hope for prosecution of individuals who profit from adding to the burden and abuse of vulnerable children.
9. swordfish 9

   17 February 2022 at 2:55 pm

   .

   There's an unfortunate tendency for the radical end of the Gender Critical Feminist spectrum to entirely blame men for the Trans agenda & its impact on women's rights (as, indeed, the broader Feminist Movement – whether GC or Gender ideologue – tends to do for most phenomena … always, apparently, the same culprit).

   UK / US / Aus Polls actually suggest women are significantly more sympathetic to the key goals of Trans activists than men are. There is a consistently large gap.

   Yet the relatively unhinged notion that all the men of the world are conspiraing to destroy women’s rights via the Trans agenda continues to be regularly regurgitated on social media & within the blogosphere with absolute conviction.
   • Anker 9.1

     17 February 2022 at 5:10 pm

     https://thecritic.co.uk/gays-against-the-conversion-therapy-ban/

     oh but here are some gay men (from the UK) against conversion practices legislation
   • Molly 9.2

     17 February 2022 at 7:17 pm

     But not here, swordfish on TS that I can recall.

     Those who you speak of are not on any GC sources I visit. It's a broad church I guess, but not a belief I share.
10. Blade 10

    17 February 2022 at 3:35 pm

    Has Michael Wood lost his mind? ( embedded clip in link)

    He does get a good hit on Luxon though.

    Quote:

    Footage of comments made by Labour MP Michael Wood in Parliament on Wednesday. Referring to the "occupation that we see out the front", Wood spoke of a "… river of filth. There is a river of violence and menace. There is a river of anti-Semitism. There is a river of islamophobia." Wood's comments on the protest start about five minutes into the footage. (Source: PARLIAMENT TV)

    Obviously Labour are feeling the heat.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/300519498/live-jacinda-ardern-leaving-protest-at-parliament-to-police-says-operational-convention-wont-be-broken-here
    • Anker 10.1

      17 February 2022 at 3:58 pm

      Pretty shocked by what Wood has said.
      • Peter 10.1.1

        17 February 2022 at 8:07 pm

        Are you shocked by the river of filth, the river of violence and menace, the river of anti-Semitism and the river of Islamophobia he has observed?

        Which person has the bigger chance of being harassed about wearing a mask while walking past the throng; a 1.7 metre slight woman or a 1.85 man wearing gang colours?
    • McFlock 10.2

      17 February 2022 at 4:08 pm

      No. He's one of the people on the receiving end of the "peaceful" protest.

      His speech:

      https://twitter.com/byroncclark/status/1493902071980249092
11. Anker 11

    17 February 2022 at 3:44 pm

    I am not surprized by that reseach Swordfish. Women traditionally put others needs before there own, so that could be a factor in women being more sympathtic.

    I think men are less bothered about transgender ideology and take the view that yes that sounds good, its progressive, lets support it. They are yet to have their rights impacted by this movement. And I believe that the people who benefit most from the movement are men. Men can now win women's prizes scholarships, sporting competitions and of course if you say anything about it, well you are mean and transphobic.

    The biggest losers are the trans kids who are been given drugs and surgery that cause irreversible damage. Women come second as asserting our boundaries, e.g for private change rooms and public toilets gets shouted down. Examples we use to demonstrate this happens are referred to as hoaxes. And women like J K Rowling and now Adelle are harrased on-line for the most minor of statements. Two girl guide leaders in the UK were sacked for expressing concern that a trans woman guide leader was in a role with children. There is now an investigation into this person for posting on line fetish type pictures of themselves. Oh yeah and Broadsheet had a photo of six men who now identify as women who have committedd some of the most heinious crimes, including torture and murder, and a Dr in the Hawkes Bay who sexually abused young patients.

    But we continue to be gas lighted by the mantra trans women are women and lesbians can have a penis.
    • Blade 11.1

      17 February 2022 at 4:22 pm

      Post of the day.

      And let's not forget those young folk who are unsure of their sexuality, but are lead in the direction of being trans or gay.
    • Molly 11.2

      17 February 2022 at 7:22 pm

      Investigation unresolved with the resignation of the volunteer:

      https://twitter.com/Girlguiding/status/1493948407446224901

      Unconfirmed report that he is now the Inclusion Officer for Notts Scouts group.
      • Molly 11.2.1

        18 February 2022 at 12:55 pm

        Unconfirmed report seems to be accurate.

        Nottingham Scouts – Meet the team – County Support

        
12. Blade 12

    17 February 2022 at 4:16 pm

    Another musing from my list comes to pass.

    13-Does a new political movement form out of these protests?

    https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/#comment-1862808 (post 35).

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/covid-19-parliament-anti-mandate-protests-former-national-mp-matt-king-confirms-plans-for-new-political-party/
13. Brigid 13

    17 February 2022 at 6:37 pm

    ""I’d like to request US and British disinformation: Bloomberg, The New York Times and The Sun media outlets to publish the schedule for our upcoming invasions for the year. I’d like to plan my vacation," "

    Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova

    https://tass.com/world/1404247
    • Blazer 13.1

      18 February 2022 at 7:57 am

      and another….'Invasions in Europe never happen on a…Wednesday'.

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