Open mike 17/02/2025

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 17th, 2025 - 58 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

58 comments on “Open mike 17/02/2025 ”

  1. weston 1
    17 February 2025 at 6:59 am

    THE REVOLUTION IS HERE

        Hard to deny i think monumental changes are happening around the world

    Especially in America .While the Trump campaign was gathering momentum i watched and i thought this is good because for sure he will be the 'spanner in the works ' , but brother was that an understatement !!!!!!!

    Before Trump while the Biden establishment meandered through a year and a half or so of genocide enabling for Israel and obviously for its own racist maniacs and even as the bodies of innocents grew ever higher daily you got the impression many didnt even notice and mind bogglingly many knew even here on TS and forgave them .

    Its a chilly overcast morn where i am with a promise of blustery rain an imo theres nothing like a dose of realism on such a monday morning wakey wakey



    Reply
  2. Phillip ure 2
    17 February 2025 at 8:02 am

    So h. clark/labour took away birthright rights in nz ..(doing what everyone is now horrified about because trump is doing it..)

    Labour needs to promise to restore those rights…to right that clear wrong/mistake on the part of h.clark/2006 labour…

    Reply
    • Phillip ure 2.1
      17 February 2025 at 8:34 am

      And while they are at it they can overturn the legislation enacted by Clark/labour that entrenched child poverty…

      This is the economic apartheid inherent in the working for families act ..

      ..which differentiates between (in Clarks words) the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' families..

      In that working families ..the 'deserving'.. receive that family support ..

      Whereas those families who (for whatever reasons) are not in paid work…and are thus 'undeserving'..

      ..and get no family support from this act…

      This cruel/unjust reality would have been felt particularly hard by the recent waves of fired workers..

      Not only is their work income ended..they get a double kick in the guts when they realize that now they are the 'undeserving'…

      ..and their family support is also taken away from them ..

      How can anyone be ok with such blatant crueltyinjustice done to the poorest/workers in nz ..?

      Labour need to promise to end that discrimination..

      ..to right that wrong..

      Reply
    • gsays 2.2
      17 February 2025 at 8:46 am

      Hi Phil, can you expand a little on the birthright rights that were removed plz?

      Reply
      • Phillip ure 2.2.1
        17 February 2025 at 8:56 am

        Sure…we used to be what trump is now going to end… namely if you are born in nz…you are a nz citizen..

        Clark/labour removed that right in 2006..

        ..and this is now being highlighted by the 19 yr old born/educated here…to parents who are not here legally…is to be deported to India…a country he has never been to/does not speak the language..

        This is inhumane ..in any language. .

        This 19 yr old is a nz citizen…to my mind ..

        And must be allowed to stay in the country of his birth ..

        ..and birthright for all must be restored. .

        Reply
        • mikesh 2.2.1.1
          17 February 2025 at 11:38 am

          Does he have a birth certificate? I suspect he doesn't if his parents are here illegally since the birth would probably not have been regisgtered . Would that make a difference?

          Reply
        • gsays 2.2.1.2
          17 February 2025 at 12:58 pm

          Ahh, thanks Phil, I get it now. I was thinking of Birthright the charity.

          FWIW, I agree with you about the young fella facing deportation.

          Just to be a bit curly, what if he was the child of parents who, for example, were guilty of, say, migrant exploitation and facing deportation?

          Reply
        • ianmac 2.2.1.3
          17 February 2025 at 1:22 pm

          The 14 th Amendment in the USA States that anyone born in the USA is automatically a citizen. Trump would have to cancel the Amendment which needs I think 2 thirds majority +++

          Reply
    • bwaghorn 2.3
      17 February 2025 at 9:00 am

      The whole birth rights thing is a problem because it invites people to gain an advantage by being sneaky or just plane dishonest. That said give the boy residency send his parents home.

      I know a successful young couple who intend to have there children over sees solely because they get dual citizenship.

      Reply
      • weka 2.3.1
        17 February 2025 at 9:10 am

        I tend to agree. This young man should have residency.

        But if someone has a baby while here on a working holiday visa for instance, I can't see the rationale for the child being a resident. Are there issues with the parent’s nationality and that country giving residency to the child?

        Reply
        • Visubversa 2.3.1.1
          17 February 2025 at 9:47 am

          England does not have birthright citizenship. One of my nephews was born in England while his parents were there working. They had to register him in New Zealand for New Zealand citizenship when they returned here and he has no right to UK citizenship or residency.

          Reply
        • Phillip ure 2.3.1.2
          17 February 2025 at 9:48 am

          The 'rub' here is that there are many young people ….born here….grown up here..

          ..but who have this hanging over them/their lives…

          ..this must be put right…

          Reply
          • weka 2.3.1.2.1
            17 February 2025 at 10:27 am

            I agree. So draw a line under it from today. Everyone who was born here before this time gets assessed and granted citizenship if the situation warrants it, but going forward it depends on the circumstances.

            Reply
            • Phillip ure 2.3.1.2.1.1
              17 February 2025 at 11:15 am

              Legislation restoring birthright in nz…and guaranteeing citizenship to those born here since 2006…

              .. would be the simplest way to fix this…

              Reply
              • weka …
                17 February 2025 at 11:50 am

                please explain why someone on a WHV should have their baby born here become a NZ citizen.

                Reply
                • Phillip ure …
                  17 February 2025 at 12:12 pm

                  That could be put down to luck thru accident of birth..

                  There is a bit of it about..

                  The mother of my son is German..

                  ..so he has birthright rights here..and in Germany…and in the e.u…

                  ..and to further cite your example…his mother was here on holiday…when/where she met me..

                  Reply
            • alwyn 2.3.1.2.1.2
              17 February 2025 at 2:36 pm

              "So draw a line under it from today".

              We drew the line under it back in 2005. At that time we said that anyone born here before 1/1/2006 was a citizen. Anyone born after that date was a citizen only if at least one of their parents was a citizen or had permanent residency.

              Why re-open it? Because we have a case that we don't like? What will we do in 2045 when in comes up again? Simply decide to start again and grant everyone born here between 2025 and 2045 gets retroactive citizenship in the same way as you appear to be proposing for the period between 2006 and 2025?

              Sorry but this is the law and has been so since 2006. It is the hard cases like this for which the Ministerial discretion applies. If the Minister won't apply it we can complain but someone has to choose. We can't just say that we shouldn't have any laws because we get the rare problem occasionally.

              You go on to say "Everyone who was born here before this time gets assessed and granted citizenship if the situation warrants it" followed by "going forward it depends on the circumstances". Can you tell me the difference between these statements? All you appear to be saying is that we may or may not give citizenship in either situation.

              Personally I would allow the boy to stay but deport the parents who have been overstayers for at least 20 years. Why should they be allowed to continue here?

              Reply
              • weka …
                17 February 2025 at 3:03 pm

                fair point. I do think periodic amnesties serve NZ's interests. Twenty years is a long time in a community, lots of ties there that matter.

                Reply
                • Phillip ure …
                  17 February 2025 at 4:04 pm

                  Agree with the periodic amnesty idea..

                  'cos really… people who have the motivation to become economic refugees…

                  ..to face all the challenges of such a life..

                  ..and usually for the opportunity to make a better life for their families..

                  .. aren't these the sort of people we want here..?

                  ..and isn't that what we all are..?

                  ..the descendants of economic refugees ..

                  ..who came here for those self-same better-life reasons..?

                  How can we be churlish now…about others doing what brought us here..?

                  Yes .!…to amnesties …

                  Reply
              • Shanreagh …
                17 February 2025 at 9:33 pm

                I agree with Alwyn. We have drawn a line under it.

                Personally I would allow the boy to stay but deport the parents who have been overstayers for at least 20 years. Why should they be allowed to continue here?

                Latest:

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/542071/new-zealand-born-teen-s-deportation-to-india-paused-at-last-minute

                What have the parents been doing here occupation-wise over the last 20 years?

                Reply
                • Dennis Frank …
                  17 February 2025 at 10:12 pm

                  If Penk is really that stupid, I have to admit I expected better from him. Someone ought to give him a bit of a talking to. Obviously anyone born in Aotearoa is an Aoteoroan naturally. If the state can't get real, it becomes disposable. So common sense must prevail.

                  That said, the state of NZ hasn't featured common sense much during my adult life. There did seem to be a semblance of it when I was young, but clueless dork syndrome has been prevalent for a long time. I agree there have been fairly brief periods when a semblance of competence has also shown up, as if to give us hope for the future…

                  Reply
                  • Shanreagh …
                    17 February 2025 at 10:25 pm

                    I agree for the son. It is sensible. I note though he was issued with an Indian passport so it seems as though he is not stateless, see Craig's post:

                    If a child would be otherwise be stateless, they are NZ citizens by birth (Citizenship Act 1977 No 61 (as at 26 November 2024), Public Act 6 Citizenship by birth – New Zealand Legislation).

                    The parents may have 'cooked the goose for the son', unfortunately. By not regularising their residency it has affected him. What were the reasons that their applications were declined in the 2010s?

                    Has he a right to leave but then apply for a work permit /residency for himself?

                    It is hard.

                    Then I would feel more sympathy if it can be shown that the parents have been working/paying taxes and not claiming benefits over the years but is this enough to knock out the basic illegality of overstaying.

                    Agree with the ‘clueless dork syndrome has been prevalent for a long time.’ Prime examples in this case are INZ not following up the refusal of work and other visas applied for in the 2010s.

                    Reply
  3. Chris 3
    17 February 2025 at 11:13 am

    So we can be infinitely scathing about what Australia's doing to the 501s, yet we do the exact same thing to this young man.

    Reply
    • Phillip ure 3.1
      17 February 2025 at 11:26 am

      Yes..the hypocrisies are rife here..

      ..and how can those who voted for this aberration not be shifting uneasily in their seats…?

      And there is an economic argument also to be made here..

      In that we as a country have invested in the education etc of these young people….and just as they are about to become contributers to the economy we throw them out..

      But the strongest arguments for birthright restoration must be against the limbo these young new Zealanders find themselves trapped in..

      This is a cruel/unjust life for them..and all through no faults of their own…

      They are why birthright rights must be restored…

      Reply
      • Shanreagh 3.1.1
        17 February 2025 at 10:04 pm

        I agree totally with your argument for the son. I am not sure if he holds Indian citizenship as well?

        I don't see that at present the parents can hang a 'remaining in NZ argument' off an argument for a right for him to remain because he was born here.

        Sunita Devi had not held a valid visa since 2004, and "because she was unlawfully in New Zealand at the time of Daman's birth, he therefore inherits her immigration status as being unlawfully in New Zealand", he said.

        Ministerial intervention for temporary work permits in 2010 was declined and after another failed application in 2011 the family had no further contact with Immigration New Zealand until 2024, when they applied for visitor visas under section 61 of the Immigration Act, he said.

        These were also declined.

        As always the truism 'hard cases make bad law' applies.

        Is everyone in work?

        The problem seems difficult to solve, exacerbated by lax follow-up of the visas that have been granted*, and overstaying. For instance in the Kumar family temporary work permits were declined in 2010. So why was enforcement action to remove not taken then?

        NZ makes a rod for our own backs by not doing this follow-up. Not all of the lack of followup can be laid at the door of staffing pressures from the current govt. Then we get the tugging at the heartstrings situations such as here. Also while the current son can recieve an eduation to secondary school level as an overstayer this ability stops then and he is not eligible to go to University. We may possibly be seeing other under educated though capable people here in NZ and that is a waste.

        *See below in this article.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/indonz/496521/i-don-t-have-a-right-to-dream-teen-overstayer-faces-a-life-of-uncertainty

        Reply
    • Incognito 3.2
      17 February 2025 at 11:38 am

      The Australian 501 pertains to failing of a character test, so how’s that “the exact same thing” in this single individual NZ case?

      Reply
      • Chris 3.2.1
        17 February 2025 at 12:55 pm

        People getting sent to places where they have no connection to. So apart from the abject hypocrisy, it's in fact worse.

        Reply
        • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1
          17 February 2025 at 10:08 pm

          His parents surely would have a connection to India? One doesn't lose a connection to a place where one is born & brought up in the time of 20 or so years, otherwise this would also happen to NZers who have spent their significant parts of their lives overseas. The overstaying argument has no connection to this.

          Reply
    • tWig 3.3
      17 February 2025 at 8:53 pm

      We've being 501ing PI citizens who were born in NZ, and may have never been to the Island they came from for a long time. The same issue of unsupported, possibly violent, young men being dropped into a country they know nothing about happens in those Islands. The hypocricy is ours.

      Reply
  4. Adrian 4
    17 February 2025 at 12:11 pm

    Why did this legislation come about? I may be completely wrong here but I vaguely recall that it might have been in relation to not nessecarily a scam, but a movement of sorts, of couples or individuals moving here for a very short while just so their child could get citizenship and the parents later being eligible for the family reunification scheme. The US rings a bell, of course it was a fairly expensive exercise so I imagine it was a bit out of touch for those from poorer countries. There was also a no fly rule which may even still exist if the mother was within 4 weeks os birthing. Please correct me if I’m wrong on any of this. What is being forced on this young man is cruel and harsh and I don’t support it at all.

    Reply
    • KJT 4.1
      17 February 2025 at 12:26 pm

      It was introduced because a significant number were rorting birthright citizenship.

      Though I suspect nowhere near as many, as our education for residency scam run by tertiary institutions, or the temporary visa employer scams.

      Stay long enough to have a child in NZ. Then push for residency on the basis their NZ born child will be on their own, here.

      Reply
      • Shanreagh 4.1.1
        17 February 2025 at 10:11 pm

        Agree. This seems actually to be what has happened here but as often happens the results fall heavily on those who are the least infringing ie the son.

        The parents have applied and been turned down twice in the 2010s and have just stayed on…….

        Reply
  5. SPC 5
    17 February 2025 at 2:48 pm

    Grandstanding is the NZF way.

    But it occurs in a nation with poor access to dentists and poor dental care has wider health consequences. In a nation with declining access to primary health care.

    It does not develop good national policy.

    New Zealand First proposed a Member's Bill the day after the WDC meeting aimed at returning flouridation decision-making power to local communities.

    "All the council is fighting for is to have a referendum on the matter so locals can have a voice," Peters said.

    The 'Fluoridation (Referendum) Legislation Bill' seeks to repeal the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 that granted centralised authority to the director-general of health and mandated the fluoridation of local water supplies.

    It will also amend the Local Government Act 2002 and Health Act 1956 mandating local authorities to hold a binding referendum on water fluoridation.

    "This bill reinstates the fundamental right for communities to determine through democracy whether or not their water supply is fluoridated," Peters said.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/542106/winston-peters-says-whangarei-fluoridation-mandate-a-despotic-soviet-era-disgrace

    Three nations have compulsory fluoridation.

    Singapore, Ireland and now Enzed.

    Singapore – 0.4-0.6 mg per litre from 1956

    Ireland, first 1.0 to half the population, then 0.8 to all. 1960. Now it is 0.6-0.8, target 0.7.

    Facts. China, India have high levels in their water, so does half the UK (the rest gets fluoridation, if councils seek it).

    Germany – use of iodine salt with fluoride as well as fluoride tablets and washes is strongly encouraged by their Ministry of Health – leading to a remarkable drop in caries prevalence in Germany since the early 1990ies.

    Switzerland, Austria and France also fluoridate table salt.

    In 2011 the U.S. DHHS and EPA proposed to reduce the recommended level of fluoride in drinking water to the lowest end of the current range, 0.7 milligrams per liter of water (mg/L), from the previous recommended maximum of 0.7 to 1.2 mg/L in recognition of the increase in sources of fluoride such as fluoridated toothpastes and mouthwashes.

    Israel demonstrates the problems of politicians acting in ways that harm public health.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country

    New Zealand

    We have 0.7 and 1.0 milligrams per liter, this is now generally seen as too high.

    If we continue with a national standard we have two choices – added to water as now or added to salt (and also promote fluoride mouth washes).

    For mine, if water we should reduce it to a lower range 0.5-0.7.

    And if we allow opt out, supply fluoride mouth washes and add fluoride to iodised salt for those in regions that do this.

    Reply
    • KJT 5.1
      17 February 2025 at 3:15 pm

      The "Cookers" packing out council meetings, to intimidate councilors, and cherry picked "evidence" plus endless repetition of fairly obvious pseudo science from the USA, notably on community Facebook pages, and mobbing character assisination of anyone who questions them, shows they don't really want a referendum of well informed citizens.

      The same tactics as the anti-vaccers!

      And MAGA!

      Reply
    • tWig 5.2
      17 February 2025 at 3:36 pm

      Why bother dropping levels? I remember the dental nurse/murder house on Willis St, where they trucked us in to get out little teeth drilled by learner dental nurses, with no anaesthetic. My son, born after fluoridation, had no fillings at the age of 20, and no evidence of fluorodosis (as evidenced by flecked teeth).

      Like immunisation, water supply fluoridisation benefits those who are poor, and likely to be unable to afford washed, etc the most.

      Reply
      • tWig 5.2.1
        17 February 2025 at 3:48 pm

        Fancy mouth washes, etc.

        Reply
      • SPC 5.2.2
        17 February 2025 at 4:07 pm

        Because the 0.7-1.0 is one of the highest (added to water) rates in the world.

        The two other nations making it compulsory, have lower rates.

        The US has lowered its rate to 0.7.

        At above 1.5, there are neurotoxity impacts (thus 1.5 is the WHO maximum).

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

        The laternatice

        Reply
        • tWig 5.2.2.1
          17 February 2025 at 9:40 pm

          Hmmm, I've read the 'neurotoxicity' science previously. Much of it is based on comparing individuals who come from areas where water is naturally low (F 1ppm and under) and areas, such as those with granite, where F may be 2-3 x higher, if not more.

          The US Toxicology Service analysed the published literature and says 'The NTP monograph concluded, with moderate confidence, that higher levels of fluoride exposure, such as drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter, are associated with lower IQ in children.'

          Confounding factors:. Research reviewed are population studies, not science experiments. 1. heavy metals which also affect brain development may be in the naturally-high F water sources. None of which were tested for such contaminants. Iodine deficiency also causes brain retardation. 2. Poor-quality high F drinking water occurs mostly in poor rural areas, associated with economic and social deprivation. A good population study can manage this by pairing each low and high factor person with someone of similar economic and social background. But none of the studies did. 3. A standard IQ test has a huge economic/cultural bias.

          Reply
    • Drowsy M. Kram 5.3
      17 February 2025 at 3:58 pm

      Yesterday, I happened upon a council-run 'free' supply of water without added fluoride or chlorine – it's towards the hospital side of Papaioea Park in Palmy North.

      https://www.pncc.govt.nz/Parks-recreation/Parks-and-reserves/Papaioea-Park

      Recent analysis of water sampled from nine city sites found fluoride at 0.63 – 0.82 ppm.

      https://www.pncc.govt.nz/Services/Water/Drinking-water

      I should drink more water – fluoride isn't a personal concern.

      I drink my water with fluoride,

      I've done it (almost) all my life.

      I can't taste it in water,

      And it keeps teeth free from strife.

      Reply
      • tWig 5.3.1
        17 February 2025 at 9:52 pm

        For goodness sake. Palmy has an excellent water supply, from the rainfall on the hills, or from a 200m deep clean bore in Highbury and surrounds. Fluoride has NO effect on adult cognition. The council does us proud. At my age, (and, I'm guessing, yours), keeping teeth intact is vital. Fluoridated water helps, a lot.

        And you'll have to give up drinking tea, which is a significant source of fluoride.

        Reply
    • Incognito 5.4
      17 February 2025 at 9:56 pm

      The irony is that Peters looks, talks, and acts like he’s a long-serving member of the Politburo; I even detect a slight Russian slur in his speech at times – those were the days when men worn suits & ties.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union#Ethnicity,_age_and_sex

      Reply
  6. Paul Huggett 6
    17 February 2025 at 3:06 pm

    Not sure what it is about gNActoids with their trying to be as punitive and nasty as possible – just to show us all how tuff they are. Pathetic is probably the best way to describe them – especially since in the case of the Dalit, they've put their want to be cruel, egotistical wankers out their for all to see.

    I had hopes that Penk was going to be one of the better gNats. (Alongside people such as Finlayson, at a pinch – Bolger , McKinnon – who was sincere in his concern for rehabilitation of prisoners rather than simply punishing them then shoving them out on the street to a life of recidivism).

    Unfortunately he (the Penkster) is proving to be pretty bloody useless – using all the usual excuses – such as the ill-defined "Operational Matter". Was it maybe a bit of drama he craved, or maybe just that he was a useless tit.

    Phil Ure is correct in my mind. Daman Kumar is as much a NZer as youse all and moi. Is, was, and always will be. He certainly meets the 'good character' test, which if applied equitably, would see the likes of Peter Thiel deported to whichever country he'd bought citizenship from.

    Quite a few moons ago, it used to be that even if one was born on a vessel whose destination was lil 'ole NuZull that punches above its weight, he/she/it was a NZer – and that's as it should be Not sure what H1 did, or why, but I'd give Her the benefit of the doubt and suggest she might have had Her reasons at the time.

    We need to simplify things rather than keep trying to complicate everything – just to show how clever we are.

    Similarly, thankfully those that pay taxes here do, and should get voting rights – if only after a couple of election cycles which would show their commitment to the country. (Apologies to a TDB contributor @ Castro – who, it seems to me just doesn't really like Indians. But he wouldn't be alone – there's an entire Munstry staffed in senior positions by people from the Empire – sometimes parachuted in – who think the same. And no amounting a spreadsheet risk analysis bullshit that told us that's not how they did things will alter that.

    Yes….. yet another example of enshittification/crapification.

    Penk: If you don't want to be seen as a complete R Sole, give it a rest and don't buy into your colleagues' Trumpian bullshit ideology. This whole sad story has not served the gNats image too well. Too bad, never mind!

    (Apologies if this is a double post – previous submission produced "Site can't be reached")

    Reply
    • Paul Huggett 6.1
      17 February 2025 at 4:08 pm

      out their for all to see.

      *out THERE for all

      And no amounting a spreadsheet

      * and no amount of risk analysis spreadsheet bullhit

      (Shoot me)

      Reply
  7. Drowsy M. Kram 7
    17 February 2025 at 3:06 pm

    'Devastating': Hundreds of engineers leaving NZ due to infrastructure delays, CEO claims [RNZ; 16 Feb 2025]
    "The shutdown of education rebuilds, the shutdown of hospital builds and upgrades, the slow down on roading, the changes in the Three Waters space has meant that New Zealand engineers and New Zealand constructors, the people who build the roads, waters network and buildings, have all had to look for work elsewhere and that has seen people heading overseas or contracting to work overseas and significant numbers."

    "Hundreds" of engineers were also losing their jobs, Templer added.

    What, me worry? Are our coalition of the 'wealthier-by-the-day and sorted' bovvered?

    Imho, our CoC is making a bigger pig's breakfast than the usual Nat-led lot. Don't know how much is deliberate, but if govt ministers learn from their mistakes, then the cabinet should be full of self-taught geniuses by now.

    Reply
    • tc 7.1
      17 February 2025 at 4:51 pm

      This lot have wilfully crashed the economy in such a ham fisted way it's hard not to notice.

      Key was clever about it, this lot are in an Atlas funded fire sale mode flooding the zone and they're not done yet.

      Reply
    • Georgecom 7.2
      17 February 2025 at 7:47 pm

      Part of the cocs Got To Go campaign?

      Reply
  8. Morrissey 8
    17 February 2025 at 10:31 pm

    Britain’s official state propaganda arm is right behind this latest show of insane jingoism….

    Sir Keir Starmer has said he is "ready and willing" to put UK troops on the ground in Ukraine to help guarantee its security as part of a peace deal.

    The UK prime minister said securing a lasting peace in Ukraine was "essential if we are to deter Putin from further aggression in the future".

    Before attending an emergency summit with European leaders in Paris on Monday, Sir Keir said the UK was prepared to contribute to security guarantees to Ukraine by "putting our own troops on the ground if necessary".

    "I do not say that lightly," he wrote in the Daily Telegraph. "I feel very deeply the responsibility that comes with potentially putting British servicemen and women in harm's way."

    The prime minister added: "But any role in helping to guarantee Ukraine's security is helping to guarantee the security of our continent, and the security of this country." ….

    For more of this nonsense, click the link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gxgxl3grgo

    Reply

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