Open mike 17/07/2022

188 comments on “Open mike 17/07/2022 ”

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1. barry 1

   17 July 2022 at 9:31 am

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300637193/new-zealand-can-we-fix-it-not-unless-politicians-grow-up

   Nice to see a media site pointing out the obvious that we have to do things differently. They even point the finger at media commentators, although they don't promise to change.

   We won't get change (to long term thinking) unless politicians are rewarded for it. While tax cuts and high house prices are talked about as good things pollies will not stick their necks out.
   • Ad 1.1

     17 July 2022 at 10:46 am

     We have the most coherent, centralising, long-reaching, deep-interventionist government we have had since Muldoon.

     Government is not the problem.

     The problem is in an exceptionally low-ambition rent-seeking large business community, together with most of our available capital tied up in real estate.
2. AB 2

   17 July 2022 at 9:33 am

   When does calling for something to stop become a way of prolonging it? And how much of a coincidence that this appears after a couple of weeks in which Luxon is revealed as a far right goose? (Note: link is paywalled. Just happen to have picked up the neighbour's paper copy today)
3. Blazer 3

   17 July 2022 at 9:49 am

   Fizzer Foster flops…again..high jump.

   Just keeps creating records this guy…first series loss at home for 27 years!
   • Puckish Rogue 3.1

     17 July 2022 at 10:02 am

     C'mon now its not like there were many alternatives to Foster

     There was no Rennie, Joseph and Brown or Robertson option

     The brains trust had no other choice because, as we all know, unless you've been in the ABS coaching set up you can't possibly be an international coach

     This may or may not be sarcasm
     • Tricledrown 3.1.1

       17 July 2022 at 3:51 pm

       Positive Rugby .Foster was anointed he hadn't had any experience at coaching winning teams or overseas for that matter. Scott Robertson beat a very strong Blues team by not kicking the ball away keeping the ball not allowing the opposing team to score.Foster played right into Ireland's strengths ,who invented the Gary Owen the high ball.Ireland dominated upfront even though they had a lighter pack.Foster has to go now he is out of his depth out of ideas ,Schmit or Robertson .Foster should never have been coach.Had Jacho Pyper been the ref Ireland would have been down to 13 for much of the second half .Saying all this this is a reality check a year out from the World Cup usually in the year running up to the world cup the Allblacks thrash everyone then loose the important ones .
4. bwaghorn 4

   17 July 2022 at 10:37 am

   Testing 123
   • weka 4.1

     17 July 2022 at 10:48 am

     nice to see you back.
     • bwaghorn 4.1.1

       17 July 2022 at 12:26 pm

       Cheers
   • Incognito 4.2

     17 July 2022 at 10:49 am

     I hope life has been treating you well.
     • bwaghorn 4.2.1

       17 July 2022 at 12:29 pm

       Cheers
       Just shifted jobs ,(onwards and upwards hopefully) after 4 1/2 years for some scheming miserable fuckers , thank God for labour laws I'd hate to think how they'd treat people if given free reign.
       • RedLogix 4.2.1.1

         17 July 2022 at 2:38 pm

         That sounds like no fun at all. Hope things get back on track for you.

         Giving people a little power quickly reveals their true character.
         • bwaghorn 4.2.1.1.1

           17 July 2022 at 5:20 pm

           Career wise it was worth it, it got me to this job, but after all that time they used a change in my situation to screw me out of some income , went full bully ,threatening dismissal due to a brain fart I had, and then doubled the work load and expected me to do it alone for the same money ,

           And Rich people wonder why us workers hate them .
           • RedLogix 4.2.1.1.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 5:24 pm

             Rich people often obtain to more power than their character deserves, but they are not alone in this. The resentful poor can be just as ugly.
       • Ad 4.2.1.2

         17 July 2022 at 3:37 pm

         Good work getting out.
       • Incognito 4.2.1.3

         17 July 2022 at 7:55 pm

         I remember you writing here about a pending job change quite some time back and I’m glad to hear that it has finally happened (i.e. you made it happen, I presume). Good luck with the job and I hope your family is doing better for it; a shit job tends to spill over into the home …
   • Anne 4.3

     17 July 2022 at 10:56 am

     Missed your little pearls of wisdom bwaghorn.

     Talking of ‘wisdom’. A revealing interveiw on Q&A this morning with Nanaia Mahuta. I especially recommend her response to the accusations concerning members of her family. Will link when and if it becomes available.
     • bwaghorn 4.3.1

       17 July 2022 at 12:32 pm

       Who me ,wise ??? If only you knew, 😅😅😅
       • Anne 4.3.1.1

         17 July 2022 at 12:40 pm

         Would you prefer your witty one liners? 🙂
       • Patricia Bremner 4.3.1.2

         17 July 2022 at 1:55 pm

         Hope you won through bwaghorn. Cheers. Some firms are @#&$$!!
     • Anker 4.3.2

       17 July 2022 at 12:43 pm

       thanks Anne for alerting us to this site about the Nanaia Mahuta interview.

       When asked about her family, Mahuta talked about the trolling she had received about this. She looked visibly disressed by this. So I am sorry she has received trolling and been the subject of hurtful things. That is never acceptable.

       However Mahuta failed to answer adequately the questions around her family and conflict of interests and unfortunately Jack Tame didn't ask more specific questions and got side track about the trolling.

       There are definitely questions about Mahutas family being awarded contracts or public money, that should be questioned very assertively.

       Mahuta's husband who has a criminal conviction of assault on a woman has been awarded contracts. I bring this up because someone with a criminal conviction of assault against a female will have a great deal of difficultly getting employment.

       I think it would be fair to ask why he/his company was given a contract in suicide prevention (he has no quallifications in this). and waste management?

       Her sister has also received appointments and so to have some of her nephews.

       Happy to provide links on request with more details.
       • RedLogix 4.3.2.1

         17 July 2022 at 12:57 pm

         A close friend of mine is a retired lawyer and familiar with the details on this. His answer is that we are looking at two completely different world views here. In one nepotism is considered a problem – in the other it is a virtue.

         Hence Mahuta's distress at being called on it.
         • Puckish Rogue 4.3.2.1.1

           17 July 2022 at 1:28 pm

           If her family members are the best qualified for the roles/contracts then so be it

           If they're not or if there's people equally qualified then of course people will be looking sideways at what's happening
           • RedLogix 4.3.2.1.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 1:41 pm

             The entity I work for has a government business group. It operates under strict ethical rules. If perchance as a member of that group I found myself negotiating with a government official who also happened to be a relative – I would have to immediately withdraw from that discussion. And fully document the circumstances to my manager. Failure to follow these rules to the letter would almost certainly result in my dismissal.

             And this would apply even if both of us were highly qualified and experienced in the contract or area concerned.
             • Populuxe1 …

               17 July 2022 at 1:52 pm

               Which tends to erase a lot of issues that don't apply to the Pākehā demographic majority, but do apply to a colonised, historically marginalised and much smaller indigenous community, especially in roles that pertain directly to specialist cultural knowledge only available in that community.
               • RedLogix …

                 17 July 2022 at 2:13 pm

                 So all I have to do is declare that only Maori possess the proper cultural knowledge on waste management in an industrial society – and automatically only brown faces need apply for the role. And the rules around proximity can be set aside because all Maori are related.

                 It's a cute trick really.
                 • Ad …

                   17 July 2022 at 2:50 pm

                   The NZ public sector procurement requirements and outcomes make it very, very hard not to hire Maori to deliver Maori outcomes. That's particularly the case in Education and Health, but it's all through the system now: water, Tertiary education, media procurement, public health, Justice, secondary education, SSC, Conservation, Transport, and on and on.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 3:16 pm

                     I am reading you correctly? Are you saying that if everything gets defined in terms of Maori outcomes – as part of the decolonising mantra – then skills and experience have become secondary to cultural considerations across much of the public sector.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 3:21 pm

                     It's a shade more subtle than that, but the effect is that Maori get hired to deliver Maori outcomes. There's even official names for them: for some it's Broader Outcomes, or Pa Harakeke, or Progressive Procurement, or Te Akutai, and on and on.

                     Even in the big infrastructure bids one needs to specify who is being hired for achieving these Broader Outcomes. It’s so common now as to be ordinary, and seriously you can’t win the bid without them.
             • Molly …

               17 July 2022 at 3:30 pm

               This approach should be the one used with government money.
             • Ad …

               17 July 2022 at 3:36 pm

               Lordie great in principle but what can I say except 'Welcome to Wellington'.

               The consultant contracts that people got – and get – by being mates you used to work with, are just part of beltway life especially since 2017.

               You could swim the Terrace in jam.
             • Tricledrown …

               17 July 2022 at 4:04 pm

               This is opposition gold ,Labour is on the backlash of out of control inflation ,a housing crisis,Labour shotrages,a health system under huge strain,food shortages ,5 waters etc.Mahuta needs to go she is the focal point of incompatency.But her going won"t save Labour the economy isn't going to recover by next winter and NZ is traditionally a National voting country .Which will mean austerity and block of cheese tax cuts for the swing voters.
               • Ad …

                 17 July 2022 at 4:29 pm

                 There is zero chance the Maori caucus will allow Mahuta to go anywhere. Even less than zero if Labour ever wanted to get in with Te Maori Party.

                 Labour has lower-hanging fruit to take out than that.
         • Populuxe1 4.3.2.1.2

           17 July 2022 at 1:43 pm

           ….or… there are 775,836 people in Aotearoa who identify as Māori, most of whom exist within large extended families, of whom only a certain proportion have the capital and resources to rise in the educational and political sphere. Inevitably for appointments where being Māori is an important qualification people are going to be related.

           You get exactly the same thing with Pākehā in the provinces but apparently that's not a problem for some reason…
           • RedLogix 4.3.2.1.2.1

             17 July 2022 at 1:48 pm

             I can accept there is a limited pool of talent to choose from in many cases all across public service in NZ, and that getting the right people into a role can be challenging.

             But frankly I don't care how experienced or suitable you are for a role – in my view being an immediate family member is an automatic disqualification.
             • Ad …

               17 July 2022 at 2:51 pm

               It's really not. It's just a thing you declare.

               Pretty hard to do business in this country otherwise.
               • RedLogix …

                 17 July 2022 at 3:11 pm

                 Well the global corporation I have been associated with most of my working life holds to a higher standard. Hell we will reprimand someone who expenses a $20 meal for their immediate manager by accident.
                 • Ad …

                   17 July 2022 at 3:25 pm

                   Yes that's a key difference between a global corporation and a small state.

                   Certainly doesn't make the global corporate more virtuous.

                   And you will find that global corporate doesn't get hired by small states unless it figures that out. Many of them do.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 3:52 pm

                     OK so next time someone here talks about predatory and corrupt global capitalism I can safely ignore then.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 3:56 pm

                     New Zealand remains within the top two least corrupt countries in the world and has done for over a decade.

                     Not sure if there's many global corporates who will expose their records in how they win bids to the kind of scrutiny states get, particularly small ones.

                     I think you'll find on closer examination that your joint isn't as pure as the driven snow that you're making out. Business is business.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:06 pm

                     On the contrary I know of two instance where people resigned rather than expose themselves to corrupt practice. And those are just the ones I know about. And the corporate will openly walk away from such business if necessary. I can point to one instance in Italy in just the past few months. But not all corruption involves bribes or obvious personal benefit, sometimes it can just be a case of taking a shortcut on paperwork, testing or certifying procedures – even when they seem quite logical or innocent.

                     Every 12 months everyone must undergo a mandatory ethics training course and must pass the exam which features notoriously tricky and often subtle case examples that are not easy. And you only get three shots at obtaining a 100% score or you're down the road. We have let very senior people go just for this.

                     And that is just for normal commercial business. The govt business team is another whole world I don't want to even think about.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:18 pm

                     Government business teams are born with snorkels.
                 • Tricledrown …

                   17 July 2022 at 4:11 pm

                   So if that global company is an oil or oil related company which buy off govts ,ignore human rights, womens rights ,enviromental destruction no problems there.But a $20 meal not ok sounds like hypocritical gaslighting.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

                     You need to update; this isn't the 80's anymore.

                     I'm not claiming perfection – that would be insane because nothing human ever is or will be. But the idea that big global corps routinely and actively pursue corrupt business practice no longer lines up with reality.

                     I cannot speak for all of them of course, but the ground has definitely shifted in the past two decades on this.
                   • Poission …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:44 pm

                     RL Oh you mean since when Clinton pardoned Marc Rich (for a small payment to the Clinton Foundation) and Rich's partners spun off to form Glencore who pleaded guilty last month to bribery,

                     https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1529221948198162432?cxt=HHwWgMCo0c_Q8bgqAAAA

                     https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jun/21/glencore-african-oil-operations
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:50 pm

                     Reaching back into the 90's. I am sure you can scour the net for many instances – but what you will not find are any shock horror articles on all the time a corporation did the right thing and it never made the news.

                     Again I am not claiming perfection – that would be insane. But I am saying that if you has lived and worked within or adjacent to these big corporates most of your working life you would have a more nuanced view. Defining and promoting strong ethical behaviour is a central part of the corporate game that it simply wasn't 20-30 years ago.

                     For example this sort of entity was simply not a thing 20 years ago.

                     https://ethisphere.com/
           • Belladonna 4.3.2.1.2.2

             17 July 2022 at 2:06 pm

             That may well be an argument for Tipa Mahuta's appointment (though I shouldn't have thought that she was the best qualified candidate for both the Maori Advisory Group for 3 Waters and the Maori Health Authority).

             But it's hard to believe that the most qualified candidates for 3 out of the 5 members of the advisory group on waste management were Mahua relatives. Especially as none of them appear to have any significant waste management experience or credentials. If all that is required is a te ao Maori perspective, there are plenty of non-Mahua-whanau candidates which can offer that qualification.
             • Ad …

               17 July 2022 at 2:53 pm

               It is hard to believe. So is your claim true?
               • Belladonna …

                 17 July 2022 at 3:37 pm

                 Well, I've done a quick check and can't find any relevant waste management experience for any of them on sites like Linked in which include CV, etc.

                 No one, not even the journalists supporting Mahuta, have been saying things like 'X's experience in Y, makes them a highly logical candidate for Z group'.

                 Do you have any evidence that they do have relevant experience in waste management? I'm not questioning Te ao Maori credentials – but plenty of other candidates have those….
                 • Ad …

                   17 July 2022 at 3:45 pm

                   Well you haven't provided any links for your claims, so can you at least show what are the hiring criteria you're evaluating from?
                   • Belladonna …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:08 pm

                     I don't know that I can link from Linked in – but I'll try….

                     https://www.linkedin.com/in/gannin-ormsby-9571a0171/?originalSubdomain=nz

                     https://www.linkedin.com/in/waiormsby/?originalSubdomain=nz

                     https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamokoormsby/?originalSubdomain=nz

                     Here's the OIA response on the establishment of the group

                     https://environment.govt.nz/assets/OIA/Files/OIAD-277-Response.pdf

                     Tamaoko Ormsby's waste minimization experience (the only one of the 3 with any listed) seems to be limited to refurbishing laptops for a school during Covid lockdown.

                     Both he and Waimirirangi are listed as having provided waste minimization training services. [This kind of thing is usually a tick box exercise for government departments and corporates bidding for government contracts… it rarely means much]

                     The waste management qualifications and experience of the 3 (such as they are) seem heavily duplicated. You could argue that 1 representative from the 'coal face' could be justified – but more than that – especially from a single family seems highly unbalanced.

                     Compared to the highly relevant qualifications of Jacqui Forbes and Teina Boasa – the other 2 members of the panel – they look pretty inadequate.

                     The relevant experience in: "waste, circular economy thinking and mātauranga Māori." – are certainly not limited to the Mahuta whanau – and would be fairly widespread across many different iwi.

                     The Ministry admit that they selectively approached individuals, rather than advertising or approaching a range of iwi.

                     Again, not questioning the Ormsbys Te ao Maori credentials – but pointing out that these are shared by a wide range of Maori from different whanau and iwi. It is difficult to see what made 3 members of the same family the ideal candidates.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:16 pm

                     So you've stated that you're not questioning the hiring of the person itself.

                     Well great walkback there.

                     This is what a slur looks like.

                     Hey top work.
                   • Belladonna …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:32 pm

                     What? I've provided the links, as requested, and the OIA.

                     And pointed out that the 3 Ormsbys have little waste management experience.

                     How does that equate to walking back? I am certainly questioning the hiring of the 3 Mahuta whanau members. From the OIA response, it seems that any relevant qualifications they have would be easily found in other Maori candidates.

                     And, for the Min of the Environment to openly admit approaching specific individuals, rather than seeking the best candidate, is pretty close to corruption in my book.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:35 pm

                     Plenty of hires are ringfenced in the public service.

                     And in the private sector as well.

                     In fact in NZ it's one of the most common ways to hire.

                     Just says you don't understand how the public sector hire.
                   • Belladonna …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:41 pm

                     So your answer seems to be saying, doesn't matter if it's corrupt, or it's probably nepotism – hey, all of the public sector does it. Nothing to see here, move right along.

                     I wouldn't find that acceptable from a right wing government, and I don't find it acceptable from a left-wing one either.

                     I've seen plenty of ring-fencing to look at hiring someone with a specific skill set, or a specific experience profile. This is the first time I've seen that skill set effectively being 'whanau of the Minister'.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:45 pm

                     No I am saying that it is common hiring policy throughout the public service, and you have been taken in by raw political spin.

                     It is also quite common for key hires to have direct political lineage. There are whole vetting committees in DPMC and Cabinet for them.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 5:14 pm

                     I am with Bella on this. I accept what you are saying is true, but at the same time I get the sad feeling you have normalised sub-par and shoddy standards because they are indeed so commonplace.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     17 July 2022 at 7:22 pm

                     "No I am saying that it is common hiring policy throughout the public service, and you have been taken in by raw political spin.

                     It is also quite common for key hires to have direct political lineage. There are whole vetting committees in DPMC and Cabinet for them."

                     Top comment, that, Ad.
         • Populuxe1 4.3.2.1.3

           17 July 2022 at 2:01 pm

           Not sure how your friend's theory applies to, say, the health contracts appointed to Dr Mary English, for example.
           • RedLogix 4.3.2.1.3.1

             17 July 2022 at 2:17 pm

             Bill English was indeed a senior Minister for many years – but I do not recall the exact context of these contracts you refer to. Or why you think they were problematic.
       • Anker 4.3.2.2

         17 July 2022 at 1:02 pm

         https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/government-appointments-under-scrutiny

         This is quite a balanced take on the issue of Mahuta and family conflict of interests.
         • Anker 4.3.2.2.1

           17 July 2022 at 1:09 pm

           https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/three-of-minister-s-family-members-paid-usd90k-for-role-in-expert-ropu

           And more about the contracts Mahutas family have been awarded
         • RedLogix 4.3.2.2.2

           17 July 2022 at 1:27 pm

           Finally, when National was in power in 2012, the Ministry of Education gave a very senior role to Apryll Parata, the sister of the Minister of Education, Hekia Parata. Concern was expressed by the then Labour Education spokesperson, who warned: “There is a perceived conflict of interest. People will draw all sorts of conclusions given the proximity of the appointment.” And that spokesperson was Nanaia Mahuta.

           Well that was 10 years ago. Now we are decolonising there will be different rules for different people I should imagine.
           • Populuxe1 4.3.2.2.2.1

             17 July 2022 at 2:08 pm

             If you don't think it's necissary to accommodate indigenous reality in situations directlty relating to indigenous matters, perhaps don't live in a colony with a history of oppression and borderline genocide and clutch your pearls over ethics and objectivity.
             • RedLogix …

               17 July 2022 at 2:28 pm

               What colony? New Zealand has been an independent nation for almost 120 years now. And Maori have been fully legal citizens since 1840 with full male suffrage from around 1870. Before even all white males.

               As for genocide – that happened in the Musket Wars before 1840. And it wasn't 'borderline' either.
               • swordfish …

                 17 July 2022 at 5:15 pm

                 As for genocide – that happened in the Musket Wars before 1840. And it wasn't 'borderline' either.

                 Shhhhh, RL, hush your mouth ! … those are the wars that dare not speak their name among polite (if totally clueless) Upper-Middle Pakeha Woke Society ! Spoils the highly paternalistic Noble Savage Romanticism.

                 Three decades of horrendous massacres, truly brutal genocidal violence, at least 20k dead (vs about 2k in the New Zealand Wars), tens of thousands enslaved, sadistic torture common, cannibalism, massive upheaval, iwi massacred, many others permanently driven from their nga rohe.

                 Looks increasingly like the affluent, flatulent Che Guevara beret-wearing Professional New Middle Classes – desperate for an aura of radical-chic while ensuring a highly privileged lifestyle for themselves – are intent on throwing fundamental ethics & morals out the window as they build the Brave New (deeply anti-democratic) World of He Puapua.

                 Narcissistic to the core … yet so utterly bereft of wisdom.
                 • Anker …

                   17 July 2022 at 7:18 pm

                   Agree Swordfish.

                   Having skim read He Puapua one of the enduring sentences I remember was the policy will mean transformational constitiutional change. Given this how come Labour didn't campaign on this?

                   How dare they think they can role out "transformation" to our constitutional arrangements by stealth
                   • swordfish …

                     17 July 2022 at 8:19 pm

                     .

                     Stealth is very much the preferred modus operandi of Critical Theory cult members within the Professional New Middle Class … together with their unprincipled & rather cowardly fellow-travellers … they're nothing if not profoundly anti-democratic. Essentially the same elitist tactics & mindset as the Rogernomes.

                     Self-interested authoritarians perpetually going through this ludicrous charade of ostentatious moral posturing in a wildly unconvincing attempt to justify their power-grab.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 July 2022 at 8:32 pm

                     Yes. The parallel with the disastrous Rogernome debacle is a pretty good one.

                     Lange was the charming, eloquent and acceptable public face of a government that imposed an extremist 'transformational' economic change on this country by stealth. Because so many people believed in Lange, the real power in Cabinet were able to operate with impunity until far too late.

                     Well this govt is much the same. Sure the PR optics are a lot more skilled, the circumstances are quite different – but essentially I see Ardern as the acceptable and popular face of a govt that is imposing transformational political change on this country by stealth as well. Probable outcome will not be any happier in my view.

                     And ably assisted by a woeful opposition. As a friend of mine said recently – when you are reduced to considering Seymour as the only sane alternative you know something has gone badly wrong.
                   • Populuxe1 …

                     18 July 2022 at 11:54 am

                     Probably because they were worried about bigots getting upset over any challenge to the status quo.
                 • pat …

                   17 July 2022 at 8:44 pm

                   I suspect that even without the developing economic situation this issue would see this administration lose the next election despite the attempt at stealth and an acceptable face.
               • Populuxe1 …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:52 am

                 And yet it's blindingly self-evident that there are huge structural, institutional, health, carceral, and economic disparities. No? So what's the basis for that? As for genocide, that applies to culture as well, and the litany of bad Crown legislation and neglect around that extends well into the twentieth century.
             • Ad …

               17 July 2022 at 2:56 pm

               Relax.

               The public sector has gone through this for over 20 years with women and tilting the scales of hiring. The state has the right to give effect to the policy it wants through hiring.

               So that's what it does.
               • Belladonna …

                 17 July 2022 at 3:43 pm

                 I'm not aware that preferential hiring practices – to increase numbers of women and various ethnic minorities – were equivalent to nepotism.

                 There are plenty of Maori candidates (or women candidates, or Pasifika candidates, etc.) without employing family members.

                 Of course, there are cases where family members of politicians have nationally (and sometimes internationally) recognized levels of expertise – which make them the best candidate for a particular job – and that is why there is an elaborate Cabinet Manual procedure to deal with that situation.

                 The question being asked of the Mahuta family is were they unquestionably the best candidate/s for the job/s?
                 • Ad …

                   17 July 2022 at 3:53 pm

                   No, the question is whether there is a fault in the hiring process in this particular contract.

                   Unless there is a particularly good smoking gun fault to be shown, the rest is pure politics.
                   • Belladonna …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:25 pm

                     If the family are not the best candidates, then there is undoubtably a fault in the hiring process. We don't know what that fault is. It might be incompetence, it might be political capture, it might be nepotism, – it might be something else.
                   • Ad …

                     17 July 2022 at 4:33 pm

                     You don't know what the fault is, still?

                     But there's a series of mights? That's it?

                     Take a minute on how you sound and look.
                 • Anker …

                   17 July 2022 at 3:55 pm

                   Exactly Belladonna.
               • Anker …

                 17 July 2022 at 7:53 pm

                 yes and no Ad. This is about nepotism. Not positive discrimination
             • Anker …

               17 July 2022 at 3:54 pm

               Populuxe of course it is necessary to accommodate indigenous reality in situations relating to indigeous matters. But the Mahuta family are not the only ones who can provid the "indigenous reality".

               Or if you are proposing that our system that serves to see our govt officials are not guilty of corruption, should not be applied to Maori?
               • Populuxe1 …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:56 am

                 How would you know? Were you involved with recruitment and assessed all the available options?
                 • Anker …

                   18 July 2022 at 12:00 pm

                   No I wasn't Populuxe 1. But as a citizen, I would like to see the information about the process, why Ormsby was chosen over other consultants and I think Mike King would like to know as well.

                   I think this is reasonable.

                   Unfortunately what I do know about suicide prevention is there seems to be little if anything we can do (although in the UK when they changed household gas to be less toxic, the suicide rate fell. To do with removing the means and easy access, slows people down).
                   • Populuxe1 …

                     18 July 2022 at 12:05 pm

                     Maybe he didn't go out of his way to antagonise the public service in the media and got his paperwork in on time?
                 • Anker …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:16 pm

                   "Maybe if he didn't go out of his way to antagonize the public service in the media and got his paper work in on time"

                   Naughty Mike. Not getting his paper work in on time and antagonizing the people in the public service (the people the tax payer pays to deliver outcomes).

                   Well no wonder mental health is such a shit show if that's what it takes to get public money. Too bad Mike got results and shamed the Ministry of Health by doing so
         • barry 4.3.2.2.3

           17 July 2022 at 1:30 pm

           There is nothing balanced in that article. I have given up on expecting balance from Bryce Edwards. He might have valid points but he obscures them by sprinkling in words like "controversially pushing through Parliament".

           Any "platform" run by Sean Plunkett has no claim to balance. Randomly choosing another article about the census brings up words like "inept" which show the author's bias.

           I am sorry; whether there is a valid point in the articles becomes irrelevant when the language devolves to propaganda.
           • Patricia Bremner 4.3.2.2.3.1

             17 July 2022 at 8:56 pm

             100+ Barry
       • Sacha 4.3.2.3

         17 July 2022 at 1:31 pm

         I read that the Minister had no decision-making role in those other contracts; all declared and managed via the standard public service conflicts of interest process. Not seen the interview. Did it say otherwise?

         And no, I am not going to visit Mr Plunket's lavishly-funded right-wing site to see the reckons of his band of merry rejects from other media.
         • RedLogix 4.3.2.3.1

           17 July 2022 at 1:52 pm

           It is well understood that in cases of conflict of interest – perception is what matters most of all. Mahuta will have no doubt scrupulously followed the rules – but that does not eradicate the core problem here.
           • Sacha 4.3.2.3.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 2:15 pm

             True.
           • Robert Guyton 4.3.2.3.1.2

             17 July 2022 at 2:57 pm

             Ah yes, but if in fact, Nanaia Mahuta was scrupulously honest and the contracts done by the book, then that "perception" is what needs to be scrutinised: was it manufactured, whipped-up by oppositional factions in a manner other than "under ordinary circumstances" – that is, was the issue "played" (answer, YES) and has the "perception" aspect of conflict of interest issues here been gamed. Again, YES.

             🙂
             • ianmac …

               17 July 2022 at 4:48 pm

               That is so true Robert!
             • Anne …

               17 July 2022 at 7:11 pm

               And look who made the claims. David Seymore and Simeon Brown. A more insipid pair of nasties among the current crop of pollies would be hard to find.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 17 July 2022 at 7:15 pm

                 Oh, I dunno – Brownlee's still there, isn't he? And Woodhouse. There will be others, champing at the bit…
                 • Anne …

                   17 July 2022 at 7:22 pm

                   You were too quick. I changed the wording. 😛

                   Brownlee and Woodhouse are yesterday's media flavour.
             • Anker …

               18 July 2022 at 12:06 pm

               For me Robert, the perception is many of her relatives have gained lucrative contracts, especially her husband across a range of policy areas. Has Mr Ormsby managed to get contracts through other ministers? Private enterprize? I don't know but its a bad look and the look is nepotism. Remeber the outcry about Bil English wife, who is a GP, and her group did some work on Bill English pet mental health project. Yes it was right that questions were asked about this.

               Mr Ormsby has been awarded a lot of govt money and it is unclear what he brings to the table and why it is superior to other potential contractors.
           • Patricia Bremner 4.3.2.3.1.3

             17 July 2022 at 9:01 pm

             You mean the nasty slanted suggestions by right wing nut bars of course/sarc
     • Sacha 4.3.3

       17 July 2022 at 3:22 pm

       Q&A interview with Mahuta (5m): https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/07/17/mahuta-hits-back-at-toxic-trolling-after-nepotism-accusations/
       • Anker 4.3.3.1

         17 July 2022 at 3:58 pm

         Barry, I more or less agree about the Platform, although Plunketts interview of Denis O'Reily was a good example of where he allowed O'REily to make his points and he acknowledged his points.

         Surely though if there are valid points in the articles, then it can't quite be written off as propoganda
         • Incognito 4.3.3.1.1

           17 July 2022 at 8:09 pm

           Surely though if there are valid points in the articles, then it can’t quite be written off as propaganda

           You seem to have a very ‘quaint’ idea of what propaganda is and what and when it is not. Do you still own a B & W TV, by any chance?
           • Anker 4.3.3.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 12:10 pm

             Stop patronizing me Incognito.
             • Incognito …

               18 July 2022 at 12:24 pm

               Why don’t you tell us your understanding of what is propaganda? Is it merely a bunch of lies?

               You were challenged by barry @ 4.3.2.2.3 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-07-2022/#comment-1900478) on your claim that the article you linked to was “balanced”; propaganda is not balanced by definition.
               • Anker …

                 18 July 2022 at 2:21 pm

                 No Incognito, I wasn't challenged by Barry. He didn't say, prove your point that Bryce is balanced or where is your evidence for this. Barry has expressed his view. Fine by me.
                 • Incognito …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:31 pm

                   He challenged your opinion, which is what we do here on this site. Anyway, no point challenging you on the finer points of propaganda.
       • Anker 4.3.3.2

         17 July 2022 at 4:12 pm

         Yes Mahuta is right to hit back at trolls, but that doesn't answer the questions about nepotism.

         Interestingly today (and coincidentially) David Seymor has tweated

         [unlinked quote deleted] Nainaia is her aunty.

         If this is true and Mahuta didn't excuse herself from the appointment process, it is very damming and I think Nainias job will be on the line.

         BTW I only came acorss Seymours tweat because I was looking for the link about Ormsby and the suicide prevention project he received public funds for.
         • Sacha 4.3.3.2.1

           17 July 2022 at 5:51 pm

           coincidentally

           Bless.
           • Robert Guyton 4.3.3.2.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 6:00 pm

             David must have thought, "Was stumbling upon this material serendipity? Sure!" before hitting the "publish/attack" button.
             • Anker …

               17 July 2022 at 7:13 pm

               I think both you and Sacha have misunderstood whose coincidence it was, probably I was clear enough. I meant it was a coincidence I found what David S said.

               I have no doubt Seymour targeted his tweat after Nanaia's inteview. That is the sort of time politicians do. They release info in a targeted way. I am sure it was deliberate
               • Incognito …

                 17 July 2022 at 8:31 pm

                 I meant it was a coincidence I found what David S said.

                 There’s no coincidence as such on the internet and you already said that you’d used Google to find material on the topic. Whenever you go online you leave tracks & prints and Google and SM, for example, use these to their advantage (aka to make more money).
           • Anker 4.3.3.2.1.2

             17 July 2022 at 7:10 pm

             Just to clarify Sacha, I meant it was a coincidence that I found Seymour's tweet.

             I only posted on this issue today as Anne put up a comment about how Nanaia was on Q and A and was impressive when Jack T brought up about her family.

             I was interested and watched the interview. Like I commented earlier, I am very sorry she ha s been on the end of some nasty trolling. But I was wanting to hear more and have Nanaia asked more about the fact that so many of her family members including her husband have been awarded Govt contracts or positions. Jack didn't actually asks questions about this but focussed on the trolling.

             So I commented here on what I was aware of about Mahuta and her family contracts. I googled to find links to her husband being awarded some sort of contract for suicide prevention. To my knowledge he has no background in mental health and suicide prevention. I came across David S tweat which was today. I suspect Seymour released this information today after the Mahuta interview. That is what a politician would do.

             I was referring to the coindence that I came across this material today. I don't follow David S
             • Sacha …

               17 July 2022 at 7:17 pm

               To my knowledge he has no background in mental health and suicide prevention

               If the contract is for cultural expertise or community engagement, the topic is not always important.
               • Anker …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:13 am

                 And what came out of community engagement if that is the case?

                 Why was his company appointed? Surely others can do community engaement?
                 • Sacha …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:24 pm

                   You and me do not have the information to answer those questions, do we. As with most public procurement exercises. Need a higher standard than some agitation by righties to justify further discussion.
                   • Anker …

                     18 July 2022 at 2:30 pm

                     No the link provides no information about what the grant was for and I would like to know
                   • Sacha …

                     18 July 2022 at 2:34 pm

                     I would like to know lots of things but I have learned that is no guarantee of satisfaction in life.
                   • Anker …

                     18 July 2022 at 2:38 pm

                     Sacha, you get the prize for the most new age attempt to shut anyone down.

                     So I need to not want to know stuff about Mahutas husband and the mental health contract, cause it want give me satisfaction in life? Is that what you are saying.

                     I am allowed to want to have information about what public money has been spent on. Whether it may or may not give me life satisfaction is entirely irrelevant.

                     I have a particular interest in suicide
                   • Sacha …

                     18 July 2022 at 2:49 pm

                     Feel free to submit an OIA, where it will be tested against the public interest. The answer may or may not satisfy you.
             • Robert Guyton …

               17 July 2022 at 7:18 pm

               " Jack didn't actually asks questions about this…"

               Yet you are disappointed Mahuta didn't answer the questions you have in your head?

               Curious…
               • Anker …

                 17 July 2022 at 7:36 pm

                 Jack started that part of the interview, by saying "your family".

                 Anne started this thread off today by recomending Q and A "talking of wisdom a revealing interview on Q and A this morning with Nanaia . I especially recommned her response to the accusations concerning members of her fmaily"

                 So as I had read about Nanaia's relatives getting contracts, I watched the programme in order to listen to her side of the story. But actually she didn't respond about the accusations of nepotism (except for a stock politicians sentence). She talked about the trolling.

                 I think it is important our politicians are grilled aobut any perceived conflicts of interests. Like many on this site, I screamed and complained over the Judith Collins and Orivida affair. I can's see why people wouldn't want to know more about what has happened that so many of Mahutas relatives have ended up with govt contracts.
         • weka 4.3.3.2.2

           17 July 2022 at 10:07 pm

           I've deleted your quote that has no links. Honestly beyond me why I have to keep explaining this.

           If you copy and paste, you *have to link as well. This is fundamental to robust debate. Linking means people can see the quote in context (almost always improves understanding), can check for mistakes or skewing in arguments, and in the case of something like twitter, often replies or quote tweets will answer questions that arise here.
           • Anker 4.3.3.2.2.1

             17 July 2022 at 11:14 pm

             God so sorry. No excuses. Had said before but will try and do better
             • weka …

               17 July 2022 at 11:39 pm

               with twitter, just cut and paste the URL. The tweet will embed and you get the quote and link in one go.
               • Anker …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:14 am

                 Thanks Weka. And when I thought about it, I think I didn't want to be posting a link that belonged to David Seymour, that was my motivation. But no excuse and completely my bad
       • Robert Guyton 4.3.3.3

         17 July 2022 at 6:54 pm

         Nanaia Mahuta was very powerful in that interview. I support her 100%.
         • RedLogix 4.3.3.3.1

           17 July 2022 at 7:03 pm

           Backing your own teams hypocrisy 100%.
           • Robert Guyton 4.3.3.3.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 7:12 pm

             Mahuta says she followed and kept to Cabinet protocols throughout. I believe her. It follows then, that she can't be justifiably be punished, only unjustly punished, which in my opinion, is what is happening here.
             • Anker …

               17 July 2022 at 7:37 pm

               Jack started that part of the interview, by saying "your family".

               Anne started this thread off today by recomending Q and A "talking of wisdom a revealing interview on Q and A this morning with Nanaia . I especially recommned her response to the accusations concerning members of her fmaily"

               So as I had read about Nanaia's relatives getting contracts, I watched the programme in order to listen to her side of the story. But actually she didn't respond about the accusations of nepotism (except for a stock politicians sentence). She talked about the trolling.

               I think it is important our politicians are grilled aobut any perceived conflicts of interests. Like many on this site, I screamed and complained over the Judith Collins and Orivida affair. I can see why people wouldn't want to know more about what has happened that so many of Mahutas relatives have ended up with govt contracts.
               • Sacha …

                 17 July 2022 at 7:56 pm

                 This is not the first media story about the matter in the last week or two. Q&A is pitched at politics-followers, so they would expect their audience to already know at least some of the details.
             • Anker …

               17 July 2022 at 7:39 pm

               How is Mahuta being punished? Do you mean by the trolls. Well of course that shouldn't be happening.

               But it isn't punishing someone for the media to ask probing questions about this, nor for Seymour to release info that she didn't follow cabinet procedures to manage the conflict over her niece and He Puapua (if he is correct.)
               • Anne …

                 17 July 2022 at 7:50 pm

                 … nor for Seymour to release info that she didn't follow cabinet procedures to manage the conflict over her niece and He Puapua (if he is correct.)

                 Do you believe Seymour or Mahuta?

                 Given Seymour’s history lying about misrepresenting facts, I suggest it is Mahuta who is telling the truth. She has so much more to lose by lying. Every procedure was correctly followed to the letter of the law – and I suspect some more.
                 • Anker …

                   17 July 2022 at 10:45 pm

                   • Don’t know who I believe more Anne. Ideally I would want some journalist to investigate Seymour’s statement and find out whether he can substantiate it. If it’s not true Mahuta can always send him a lawyers letter.

                   Tbh I am suspious as to why so many of NM relatives have been given jobs or offered contracts in Ministries where she is the Minister.

                   I am particularly bother by the suicide prevention money her husband got. He has no background in mental health and there is limited evidence about what strategies reduce suicide. Even the recent research showing roughly a quarter of people who die by suicide have excessive blood alcohol levels. The alcohol will of course will lead to greater impulsively, but other than clinicians advising depressed people not to drink, there is an obvious intervention from this information.
                   • Anne …

                     17 July 2022 at 11:23 pm

                     The Mahuta family is a large family you know. They are at the top of the Maori chain so it isn't surprising there are several of them who have held down or are holding down government appointed positions. Brains, together with other skills, tend to be handed down through the family line.

                     The subject under discussion has nothing to do with suicide prevention but if you are going to tag it on, then you need to provide a link so we know what you're talking about. Chances are her husband is the 'chief cook and bottle-washer' who sought the finance for a suicide prevention programme among Maori, but the treatment will be carried out by Maori professionals in that field. That's just a guess of course.
           • Patricia Bremner 4.3.3.3.1.2

             18 July 2022 at 7:45 am

             So you mean if we disagree with your position we are practising hypocrisy.

             So your queries sneers and position is "Perception is everything"

             That is not the case in law and in the handbook, but that won't stop your slurs

             Nanaia Mahuta has integrity and has dealt with some very difficult political and personal situations with dignity and grace. Two qualities totally lacking in some of the men trying to sway perceptions of her, and those trolling her.
             • Anker …

               18 July 2022 at 11:02 am

               Mike King asks the questions about why Mahutas husband was funded for suicide prevention. If I was Mike I would want to know to. He has worked his guts out to provide a service with little govt support.

               https://chrislynchmedia.com/newsitems/mike-king-what-expertise-nanaia-mahutas-husband-has-in-suicide-prevention.

               https://chrislynchmedia.com/newsitems/mike-king-what-expertise-nanaia-mahutas-husband-has-in-suicide-prevention

               I do think Nanaia comes across with grace and she may well have done a fantastic job. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't be open to scrutiny. Does it?

               This story about Mahutas hamily appointments has been shut down in the msm, other than a brief flurry by the Herald. Cause to be honest, imo this is not a nothing to see here situation.

               We are talking about multiply family members being given contracts and appointments, including her husband. Who as Mike King points out was given money for suicide prevention when he has no quals in mental health. What did Ormsby do with this money? What was achieved?
               • Anne …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:25 am

                 Your link tells us nothing about the background to the grant awarded to a company belonging to Nanaia's husband. I note it is for the princely sum of $28,000.

                 I think Mike King doth protest too much!
                 • Anker …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:29 pm

                   No the link provides no information about what the grant was for and I would like to know
               • Incognito …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:55 am

                 This story about Mahutas hamily [sic] appointments has been shut down in the msm, other than a brief flurry by the Herald.

                 You seem to suffer from a similar selective memory as some of National’s past Leaders. Anne started this thread @ 4.3 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-07-2022/#comment-1900453) with the mention of the interview with Mahuta on Q+A and Sacha @ 4.3.3 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-07-2022/#comment-1900510) provided the link to the interview that aired on 1news. If that’s not MSM then what is?

                 You seem to have a lot of enthusiasm for the MSM dirt diggers to keep digging for more dirt (and) to keep the story alive. AFAIK, nothing new has come to light yet and you’ll just have to wait till OIA requests come in and get drip-fed on SM and/or until the internal enquiry at the Ministry has been completed.
                 • Sacha …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:28 pm

                   It is a handy smear for the racist thread of the big organised campaign against 3 Waters. No doubt the righties will keep stirring it up, plus whatever useful idiots help them out.
                   • Incognito …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:00 pm

                     Yes, but it is now used as a dirty indiscriminate weapon against just about anything with the M-word in it, not to mention Co-Governance. This is not limited to coming from the Right only, as plenty of comments on this site can attest. Many pretend-Lefties pay only lip-service to empowerment of the segments of our society that continue to fall behind in many ways according to many metrics & indices. The lazy labels and low pot shots come hard and fast from both directions. Any debate and genuine engagement are on the back-foot from the outset because of the polarising language and narratives around. No one seems to be capable and/or willing to have a serious conversation about a long-term vision for Aotearoa-New Zealand, and this vacuum is fertile soil for radicalising elements and their agendas when the going gets tough, as is happening at present. Watch out for more DP and Trumpian-style politics here over the next year and a bit.
                   • Sacha …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:51 pm

                     To be fair, we have a big vacuum in progressive vision and I do not expect most people to know the context before they enter the low-barrier public discourse. Broad church, etc.

                     This country has only just started grappling with our colonial past recently.
                   • Incognito []

                     18 July 2022 at 8:07 pm

                     Leading the way are and have been for some time the ACT Party and acolytes (e.g. NZCPR) copying the same imagery Iwi vs Kiwi (https://thestandard.org.nz/how-can-labour-win-in-2023/#comment-1898904).
                   • Anker …

                     19 July 2022 at 10:24 am

                     Just in reply to your request further down for links to Mike King, if you scroll up to my Comment below Patricia B's there are a couple of links.

                     Let me know if that was what you wanted.
                   • Sacha …

                     19 July 2022 at 12:45 pm

                     Thank you. Same point we have already discussed. Mike King expects expertise in suicide prevention, but..

                     A spokesperson for the Department of Māori Development said that expertise in suicide prevention was not required of those receiving money from the fund.

                     https://chrislynchmedia.com/newsitems/mike-king-what-expertise-nanaia-mahutas-husband-has-in-suicide-prevention
                 • Anker …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:34 pm

                   I am interested in the truth Incognito, not defending any politician whether or not they do a good interview, whether they are Labour, National or whatever party.

                   This website was in uproar (rightly so ) about Collins and Orivida.

                   Mahuta has numerous relatives getting contracts/positions where she is involved. Her husband, her sister, two nephews and a niece.
                   • Sacha …

                     18 July 2022 at 2:37 pm

                     where she is involved

                     How? Highly relevant question.
                   • Incognito …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

                     I believe that most people would say that they’re interested in the truth, so that’s neither here nor there.

                     I see this as a relatively minor issue and I expect we’ll get some answers in future. If it were as big some like to make it out to be then I think it likely that Mahuta would have lost her portfolios for breaching the rules, possibly just temporary as a symbolic gesture more than anything.

                     Labour cannot afford this lingering and hanging over them for too long, because it has a disproportionally large negative impact on a whole load of things that they want to achieve before the General Election. They would therefore want to neutralise this as soon and as much as they can, which again brings be back to Mahuta who’s still standing and going strong and getting the full support of the Labour Party.

                     In short, people see what they want to see and making up things to fill in the gaps (aka lack of info and answers). This is not seeking the truth but confirmation bias, pure and simple. The MSM know that without new info they cannot keep running these stories on confirmation bias of some of their readership alone.
                   • Anne …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:35 pm

                     You talk about being interested in the truth Anker yet you have already passed judgement on Nanaia Mahuta and members of her family with no actual evidence to back up the claims. As far as I can tell it is all hearsay and innuendo with most of it coming from right wing politicians such as Seymour and Brown. It is then being picked up by tabloid journos who exaggerate and embroider them for political and click-baiting purposes.

                     I've already told you that it is not surprising there are various members of the Mahuta family who have received contracts of one sort or another. They are a bright and talented family. How about checking how many other Maori dynasties of note have also been the recipient of contract arrangements down the years with the Crown.
                   • Anker …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:48 pm

                     "no one seems capable of and/or willing to have a serious conversation about a long term vision for Aotearoa"

                     I think that is what Seymour is proposing that we have a debate about cogovernance and a way forward.

                     RE the link from Anne . Hav e you watched it? Jack asks one question about the nepotism and Mahuta gives a cliched answer like "all procedures were followed" and that's it.

                     As I said earlier, I watch Q and A not out of some enthusiam to "dig dirt" but I geniunely wanted to hear what was said. The interviewer gave Nanaia a free pass on the rumours of nepotism. She could have clarifed further, but she didn't. So in my mind there are unasnwered questions.

                     I honestly hadn't given a lot of thought to the nepotism rumours, although they looked very suspious to me. I read what Mike King said and I thought no wonder he is pissed. He got a whole service for mental health up and running with sfa from the govt and he's letting us know about a contract Mr Ormsy got for suicide preventation and he is asking a lot of questions.
                   • Incognito []

                     18 July 2022 at 9:23 pm

                     You think what Seymour is proposing is not what he and ACT are about, so why don’t you check first before you make assumptions and jump to conclusions. Hint: ACT has already rejected Co-Governance and wants a Referendum to put it to rest for at least a number of years.

                     My guess is you’d vote against a whole raft of policies because of your ‘suspicions’, which coincidentally align very nicely with ACT.

                     As to the answer Mahuta gave, which is the same as the PM and Government have given, is correct & true. It has to be because Mahuta would have received at least a Yellow Card otherwise.

                     You can keep looking for smoke as much as you like but it won’t start a fire nor will it fire a gun.

                     Did Mike King put in a tender in the same round?
                   • Sacha …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:54 pm

                     what Mike King said

                     Interested – do you have a link?
             • Anne …

               18 July 2022 at 11:12 am

               Nanaia Mahuta has integrity and has dealt with some very difficult political and personal situations with dignity and grace.

               So true. Has anyone witnessed an instance where Nanaia has not responded with dignity? Never. She's light years ahead of her detractors.

               As for the psychological abuse and the trolling… only those who have been on the receiving end can fully comprehend the huge amount of damage caused, not only to the target but often to their families and others around them. It can send the victim into a spiral of terror… afraid to leave their homes for fear of what might happen to them. The threats can be both overt and covert.

               These types of people – who often also physically stalk their prey – have in the past been given a free pass with little to no consequences. It is time for such offences to be given a much higher level of priority, and the punishments increased to fit the level of abuse committed.
               • Anker …

                 18 July 2022 at 10:21 pm

                 Incognito i think it is abundantly clear where Seymour and Act stand on co governance. But what they are saying is lets have the debate and a referendum. Unlike Labour who never mentioned He Puapua or campaigned on it in the last election.

                 I am now quite suspious of Labour (I am a party member by the way), because of how they have done so much by stealth. The gender self ID bill, three waters (never campaigned on it or looked at other options) the Rotorua Bill which Tamati Coffey championed (which David Parker quashed because he said it went against the Bill of Rights) and the He Puapua document (which talks about transforming our constitutional arrangemnts. That flew below the radar before the last election.

                 I think it is reasonable to by suspious of Mahuta given so many family appointments when she was a Minister. Two contracts to her husband in fields he has no qualifications for.
5. Anne 5

   17 July 2022 at 12:45 pm

   Interesting comparison between NZ and Australia by two high level experts. Yes, the real experts not the pseudo variety as preferred by some:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/471081/covid-19-how-are-australia-and-nz-managing-the-rising-winter-wave-is-either-getting-it-right
6. Sacha 6

   17 July 2022 at 12:54 pm

   Whitewasher reveals her calling. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300638654/blue-blood-how-the-national-party-went-to-war-with-itself

   In 2016, an exhausted John Key told wife Bronagh: “I’m certain it’s my last year”. She said she would back him “100 per cent'' if he went for a fourth term. “But if you do go please tell me you won’t go back.” This exclusive extract from the book Blue Blood by senior Stuff journalist Andrea Vance reveals how that conversation set in train events that would lead to Key’s shock resignation, and plunge the party into a bloody leadership crisis.
   • Robert Guyton 6.1

     17 July 2022 at 2:59 pm

     Key was "exhausted"?

     They say maintaining pretence is very tiring.
     • Sacha 6.1.1

       17 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

       As are affairs, apparently
     • fender 6.1.2

       17 July 2022 at 7:57 pm

       Just goes to show the business background of long corporate lunch breaks and golf course deals is no prerequisite for a career in politics.

       "I've gambled on the money trading markets" and "I ran an airline" means shit when you're expected to actually do some work for the first time in your pampered little life.
   • Sacha 6.2

     17 July 2022 at 3:16 pm

     Q&A interview with Vance about her book (9m) https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/07/17/nats-caucus-still-fragile-after-5-years-of-internal-tumult/
     • Robert Guyton 6.2.1

       17 July 2022 at 6:11 pm

       Great journalist, poor interviewee 🙂
7. joe90 7

   17 July 2022 at 2:48 pm

   Oh dear…

   https://twitter.com/JasonStrummer/status/1548071157231849481
   • Belladonna 7.1

     17 July 2022 at 3:45 pm

     Makes me very sorry for the female sexual partners in Jordan Peterson's life. Sounds like he's just not very …. adequate….
     • Tricledrown 7.1.1

       17 July 2022 at 4:26 pm

       Jordan Peterson is an Narcisist a Misogynist a fossil who is a regular know it all that don't impress me at all , no science behind his theories just anecdotes.A man who is trying to take us back to the 1950's when it was a mans world and Men had all the answers .Very popular in the far right with his simplistic remedies.
   • felix 7.2

     17 July 2022 at 5:38 pm

     Of course you do realise that's a parody from a youtube voice impersonator called "voiceover shill", right?

     (10) Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson discuss the myth of the female orgasm – YouTube

     Like, you wouldn't be so fucking thick as to have read this obviously absurd line on twitter and assumed it was real, would you? Gee I wonder what other bullshit you swallow regularly from the same sources.

     The funny thing about Peterson is that no-one EVER criticises anything he's actually said.
     • Joe90 7.2.1

       17 July 2022 at 6:42 pm

       Babbling
       • felix 7.2.1.1

         17 July 2022 at 8:27 pm

         Are you now pretending you weren't gullible enough to fall for that obvious bullshit?
         • joe90 7.2.1.1.1

           17 July 2022 at 8:52 pm

           After barking benzo-boy's reckons about women and cosmetics, anything is possible.

           Dude's a fucking clown.
           • RedLogix 7.2.1.1.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 9:11 pm

             Barking indeed.
     • Shanreagh 7.2.2

       17 July 2022 at 6:43 pm

       The funny thing about Peterson is that no-one EVER criticises anything he's actually said.

       I have and do and Petersen is still top of my twit list.
       • RedLogix 7.2.2.1

         17 July 2022 at 6:51 pm

         The AB's could have done with your help shifting goalposts the other night.
     • Anker 7.2.3

       17 July 2022 at 7:45 pm

       Oh, its a satire Felix? Thanks for the info.
       • felix 7.2.3.1

         17 July 2022 at 8:23 pm

         It was a satire on youtube, just a blatant lie by the time it got quoted on twitter as if it were real though.
         • swordfish 7.2.3.1.1

           17 July 2022 at 11:15 pm

           Leave the Intersectionals alone … they may be inadvertently regurgitating embarrassingly weak satire … but it's their truth … which is just as valid as ours. Putting aside the fact that “truth” itself is a yucky patriarchal settler-colonist construct designed to oppress pregnant men of colour.
           • Populuxe1 7.2.3.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 12:02 pm

             Do you have enough tinfoil?
             • swordfish …

               18 July 2022 at 7:16 pm

               .

               As so often, despite displaying the trademark pomposity & self-satisfaction of the former Public Address cadre, you've managed to get things totally arse about face. Falling for any old invective against one of irrational Wokedom's key hate-figures (in this case, a patently obvious – if banal – parody) is very much the tin foil hat territory here, sweetness.

               Now if you could answer this with an erudite little bon mot, I’m sure those of equal pretention will find themselves utterly enchanted.
               • Populuxe1 …

                 19 July 2022 at 1:25 am

                 The overly ostentatious vocabulary and excessive italics are a dead giveaway.
           • Anker 7.2.3.1.1.2

             18 July 2022 at 7:40 pm

             lol 100$ Swordfish
8. barry 8

   17 July 2022 at 3:27 pm

   A you tube series worth watching.

   The problems referenced apply to NZ as well, and explain why most of the infrastructure devleopment we are putting in to fix the housing crisis is unsustainable.

   1. Introduction to Strong Towns & Financially Insolvent American Cities
   2. How Suburban Development Makes American Cities Poorer
   3. How America Bankrupted its Cities – The Growth Ponzi Scheme
   4. How Bankrupt American Cities Stay Alive – Debt
9. Incognito 9

   17 July 2022 at 3:29 pm

   Political antagonism and shortfalls of deep thinking and analysis by parliamentary select committees do not lead to robust decisions. Outside Parliament, political commentators in the newspapers “are just so overtly political and partisan, it's not helpful”.

   “These are complex multidimensional issues, which require more than shallow, political or partisan argument. And that's what we're not good at,” he [Peter Gluckman] says.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300637193/new-zealand-can-we-fix-it-not-unless-politicians-grow-up
   • Tricledrown 9.1

     17 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

     Gluckman was to scared to mention this when he was John Keys lackey but better late than never! Did Key do anything longterm yes he cut health funding police funding education funding all had longterm consequences. Nothing will change politics is a popularity contest every 3 years so no longterm solutions will happen, balance books buy votes, balance the books buy votes and on it goes.
     • Incognito 9.1.1

       17 July 2022 at 5:21 pm

       Your comment is laughable and pathetic at the same time. Say what you like about Gluckman but he’s never been anybody’s lackey. You can join the other group of commenters here who like to shoot the messenger instead of adding something constructive and of real substance to the commentary here.
10. joe90 10

    17 July 2022 at 4:04 pm

    Be lucky if we're not flapping in a puddle by 2050.

    (CNN)Two years ago, forecasters in the UK conducted an interesting thought experiment: What will our forecasts look like in 2050?

    […]

    "Not actual weather forecast," the Met Office's graphics said. "Examples of plausible weather based on climate projections."

    Well, on Monday and Tuesday, the "plausible" becomes reality — 28 years early.

    https://twitter.com/SimonLeeWx/status/1547957062000267267

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/15/weather/2050-uk-forecast-comes-true-in-2022/index.html?
11. Ad 11

    17 July 2022 at 4:07 pm

    Somebody give this guy a shot at permanent PM.

    Roberston extends the fuel subsidy through to January next year.

    Grant Robertson extends fuel tax cut to January, with fuel relief now costing $1b – NZ Herald

    Way to suck the political oxygen out of the room Grant.
    • Poission 11.1

      17 July 2022 at 4:18 pm

      Must know the CPI for tomorrows release,getting ahead of the curve with a swerve.

      Maybe his advisors though had not told him of the risks with NZ,with regard to the high current account deficit,and the housing corp debt problem.
    • Belladonna 11.2

      17 July 2022 at 4:23 pm

      Canny political move.

      I'm sure they can all see the writing on the wall – petrol prices are not coming down, and the hit when the subsidy ran out would be painful to the voting population.

      I expect to see it extended again in January (unless I'm wrong and petrol prices are indeed dropping) – until after the election.
    • Robert Guyton 11.3

      17 July 2022 at 5:19 pm

      Good move, Grant. Great also to have a PM who gives others the platform to announce positive actions: that Jacinda! She's too good!

      🙂
      • Anne 11.3.1

        17 July 2022 at 6:03 pm

        Oh yes. She's too good for many Kiwis. That's why she is continuously being undermined – including by some regulars here. Tall poppy syndrome in full flight!

        Better be careful. They'll be coming for you next. Mind you I think you can handle it with good humour n'all.
    • Anker 11.4

      17 July 2022 at 7:47 pm

      "someone give this guy a shot at permanant PM". Ad your standards are too low

      Its a tax cut. not a bad decision, but hardly rocket science
12. joe90 12

    17 July 2022 at 10:17 pm

    Deleted after they were requested?

    There must be some incriminating shit in those texts.

    The Secret Service’s account about how text messages from the day before and the day of the Capitol attack were erased has shifted several times, the inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security told the House January 6 select committee at a briefing on Friday.

    At one point, the explanation from the Secret Service for the lost texts was because of software upgrades, the inspector general told the panel, while at another point, the explanation was because of device replacements.

    The inspector general also said that though the secret service opted to have his office do a review of the agency’s response to the Capitol attack in lieu of conducting after-action reports, it then stonewalled the review by slow-walking production of materials.

    […]

    In the letter, the inspector general said that certain Secret Service texts from 5 January and 6 January 2021 were erased amid a “device replacement program” even after he had requested the messages for his internal inquiry.

    The Secret Service has disputed that, saying in a statement that data on some phones were lost as part of a pre-planned “system migration” in January 2021, and that Cuffari’s initial request for communications came weeks later in late February 2021.

    But the select committee questioned the Secret Service’s emphasis on that date, the participants said, and noted in the subpoena letter that the request for electronic communications in fact first came from Congress, ten days after the Capitol attack.

    The congressional request from 16 January 2021 addressed to multiple executive branch agencies – including the Homeland Security Department, which oversees the Secret Service – was for all materials referring or relating to the riot.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/16/secret-service-deleted-text-messages-january-6
    • Craig H 12.1

      18 July 2022 at 10:26 am

      That's going to hurt in terms of US criminal law (potentially tampering with evidence) and also potentially evidence rules. To quote https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/delete-at-your-peril-preserving-electronic-evidence-during-the.html :

      At a minimum, if you have been found to have destroyed evidence, the judge may draw or the jury may be told it can draw an inference that the materials you destroyed were harmful to your case.

      In plain English, destroyed evidence can be held against people in certain circumstances.

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