Open mike 17/08/2021

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1. Ad 1

   17 August 2021 at 7:43 am

   Everyone here got their shots now?
   • Andre 1.1

     17 August 2021 at 7:58 am

     Getting my first lot of billgatesmindcontrol5Gspacelaser microchips installed tomorrow.
     • RedLogix 1.1.1

       17 August 2021 at 9:57 am

       Got mine – my phone reception is a whole lot better now
   • opium 1.2

     17 August 2021 at 9:29 am

     Yes.Fully Pfizered.Got stinking cold like symptoms for a week & felt like I had been punched in the arm from the first shot.Second one was uneventful except for a strange compusion to buy 5 copies of windows 11.Well worth it though.
     • Forget now 1.2.1

       17 August 2021 at 11:44 am

       I had the arm ache on the first jab too, but no other side effects. Though I am waiting 3 months for my second, which the booking system isn't too cooperative about. Would have been getting my second tomorrow, I had even set up a vax-date with a friend to get both of our second jabs at the same time and place (so we'd have someone to talk to during the quarter hour waiting after). But then I did a bit of research about optimal interdose intervals – 6 weeks is definitely better than 3; 12 may a bit marginal, but slightly better than that even. My companion just wants it over and done with.

       Instead, I will be driving them back after and keeping an eye on them for a bit to be sure they don't have too many side-effects. Seems to vary a lot depending on the person
   • Stuart Munro 1.3

     17 August 2021 at 9:45 am

     Waiting on my provider.
   • satty 1.4

     17 August 2021 at 9:58 am

     I'll get my first shot on Saturday.
   • bwaghorn 1.5

     17 August 2021 at 1:02 pm

     Booked mine last night, Monday week for the 1st,
   • Patricia Bremner 1.6

     17 August 2021 at 2:23 pm

     Yes Two each, all done. Sons have had their first.
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.7

     17 August 2021 at 2:56 pm

     All three in my household are done, x 2.

     Mild sore shoulders for a couple of days, nothing to complain about.
   • The Al1en 1.8

     17 August 2021 at 5:46 pm

     Last week of June I had my second jab.
   • In Vino 1.9

     17 August 2021 at 8:50 pm

     I must be the biggest Charlie in this lot. 74 yrs old – got 1st jab 6 weeks ago. But had heard English Doctor saying 5-6 weeks was a better gap, so asked for my 2nd jab last Saturday. But just before that, out came the news that 8 – 12 weeks was optimum. So I went in and asked for another 3 weeks' delay. I will now get my second jab on Sept 4.

     I thought at the time, just my luck if… and guess what.
2. Jenny how to get there 2

   17 August 2021 at 8:06 am

   Groundswell leader, Jamie McFadden, interviewed by John Campbell on TV1 Breakfast, this morning.

   (This is not a direct transcript)

   J.M. Only a 'few bad people', are letting us down. And the government should not be making policy that ‘penalises’ everybody.

   Not once in the whole interview did Jamie McFadden mention the word 'climate change'.

   For that mattter neither did John Campbell.

   John Campbell tried to ask Jamie McFadden about nitrate pollution

   J.M. What Groundswell are saying about water, we need to look at each catchment.

   (No mention of climate).

   Maybe both McFadden and Campbell need to read this;

   It’s time to freak out about methane emissions

   This lesser-known greenhouse gas will make or break a “decisive decade” for climate change.

   By Rebecca Leber, Vox, Aug 12, 2021

   ……Even though methane is not nearly as well understood as carbon, it’s playing an enormous role in the climate crisis. It’s at least 80 times as effective at trapping heat than carbon in a 20-year period, but starts to dissipate in the atmosphere in a matter of years. If this is the “decisive decade” to take action, as the Biden administration has said, then a methane strategy has to be at the center of any policy for tackling global warming.

   Methane could mean the difference between a rapidly warming planet changing too quickly and drastically for humanity to handle, and buying the planet some much-needed time to get a handle on the longer-term problem of fossil fuels and carbon pollution….

   https://www.vox.com/22613532/climate-change-methane-emissions?
   • Ad 2.1

     17 August 2021 at 8:11 am

     Jamie McFadden did a good job and the Minister who followed was pretty average articulating how the new legislation will assist.
     • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1

       17 August 2021 at 8:25 am

       Jamie McFadden "did a good job" having a go at the government for putting in legislation that "penalises" everybody, because of a few "bad people".

       By Jamie's logic, we should not put in place traffic legislation against speeding that "penalises" everbody, because a few "bad people" speed.

       Good Job Jamie.
       • Ad 2.1.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 9:09 am

         If the Minister stays as unconvincing as this, it will indeed be a good job by Jamie.
       • Gabby 2.1.1.2

         17 August 2021 at 9:21 am

         Come to think of it, do we really need laws against murder? Most of us aren't murderers.
         • Sabine 2.1.1.2.1

           17 August 2021 at 9:36 am

           Well it depends, killing people while driving drunk or just badly is pretty much a home D offense.
   • AB 2.2

     17 August 2021 at 10:32 am

     Farmers are doing what every other business will do as the need to respond to CC bites – fight to protect profitable business models, their decision-making autonomy and a way of life they like. They will obscure this core material fact with fluffy stuff (some of it partly true, some of it greenwash) about feeding the nation, caring about the land, and already doing what is needed in their own way and own time. Meanwhile they will be hard-nosed in trying to install sympathetic governments.

     This is how humanity fails in its response to CC – by not seeing that fear of economic insecurity drives behaviours that are rational in the short term, but in the long term are pathological. The idea of an economically just transition needs to be embedded, and soon, but I am not hopeful.
     • DB Brown 2.2.1

       17 August 2021 at 10:59 am

       You have plenty of reckons about the Farmers stance, fair enough. They may be true or not. But you do point out some interesting stuff – including fear.

       Loads of fear going round. Justifiable and understandable. We should address or at least acknowledge these fears, of both farmers, and persons who fear farmers will stall climate mitigation.

       We all know who really stalled climate mitigation. It's big oil, and governments in bed with them. Finding other industries and individuals to take the heat off the big players – those most culpable, is a dirty trick at best, but I'm more inclined to call it sociopathic and self centred murderous and criminal negligence.

       They (govts and corporate PR) keep pushing onus onto individuals, and their broad sweeping laws are similar to their broad sweeping statements – largely pointless, but masterful in misdirection.

       Now I'd much prefer a Labour to Nat led government, but the neo-lib BS is rife with both. They'd be flying everywhere if not for covid. It's all do as I say not as I do. Feckless wannabes using ecology (which they know fuck all about) to hit others over the head with.
       • CrashCart 2.2.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 11:41 am

         What impact does the NZ government have on big oil? Outside of trying to transition NZ off fossil fuels which is what kicked off this ground swell issue.

         In NZ our biggest contributor is Agriculture. We can sit back and cry about big fossil fuel all we want, but if we aren't addressing what we control then who are we to lecture anyone?
   • bwaghorn 2.3

     17 August 2021 at 1:06 pm

     Given that methane is so bad (I accept that) shouldn't a large part of any carbon tax go towards the people working on the methane vaccine? Cows arnt hoingcaway here or over seas .
     • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3.1

       17 August 2021 at 2:19 pm

       Cows arnt hoingcaway here or over seas .

       Imho there are two ways to decrease the quantity of methane emitted by farmed ruminants: (1) Decrease the number of ruminants, and (2) Decrease the average amount of methane each ruminant emits. Farmers could (try to) do both.

       (1) is in the farmers' fields/court – stock numbers change over time, so it's doable.

       (2) Plenty of research on this in NZ and globally; more needed – might be doable.

       The idea of a "methane vaccine" calls to mind the farmer protests (in 2003) against a ‘Fart Tax’, which was proposed as a way of funding research into (2).

       Based on historical and recent farmer protests, I believe an impartial observer would conclude that many farmers are (still) more concerned about maintaining methane emissions than they are about global warming. Open to Groundswell protesters persuading me otherwise, but they need to do better than this:

       "MAD COW"
       "PRETTY COMMUNIST"
       "CINDY –> STALIN"
       "MAGA – Make Ardern Go Away"
       "JACINDA is a COMMUNIST BITCH", and
       "What does Jacinda & Toilet Paper have in common?
       They are both Full of S*#T"

       They really do.

       
       A image from the 4 Sept 2003 protest at Parliament by farmers concerned about the proposed fart tax. The tax has been proposed on ruminant emissions to finance research into emission reduction. Images from the National Party media unit.
       • bwaghorn 2.3.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 5:58 pm

         The vaccine is well under way , the nz scientists working on give them a reasonable chance of succeeding, but buy all means cherry pick the loonier grunts from the worst morons to have a crack at farmers in general.
         • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3.1.1.1

           17 August 2021 at 7:16 pm

           … but buy all means cherry pick the loonier grunts from the worst morons to have a crack at farmers in general.

           Thanks bwaghorn, will try to remember your invitation for next time – I predict we have even loonier grunts from even worse morons to ‘look forward to’, although hopefully none from a future Prime Minister.

           I've been (peripherally) involved in supervising some post-graduate students trying to identify factors associated with low methane emissions – smaller rumens are looking promising for sheep.

           One thing the scientists grizzle about is having to down tools every year while they go cap-in-hand for more funding. Who knows how much further down the methanogen vaccine track we'd be now if it wasn't for those 'fart tax' protests.

           Talk about a sector shooting itself in the foot. Carry on…
           • Jim 2.3.1.1.1.1

             17 August 2021 at 7:36 pm

             Cap on hand for more funding you say.
             You mean tax money paid from people like farmers?
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               17 August 2021 at 8:30 pm

               If farmers would rather not pay taxes (such as a 'fart tax') to fund research aimed at mitigating the methane emissions of farmed ruminants then it's no skin off my old nose, but it's not a farsighted stance, imho. Carpe diem!

               Btw, NZ ranks 6th in the world (behind Brunei, Grenada, Bahrain, Turkmenistan and Barbados) for per capita methane emissions, and 15th for per capita total GHG emissions (CO2 + methane).

               https://www.worlddata.info/greenhouse-gas-by-country.php
               • Jim …

                 17 August 2021 at 9:34 pm

                 Per capita seems like a stupid measure too me.
                 after all NZ Ag feeds over 30 million people, factor that into your per capita and we are one of the best in the world.
                 if change your formula to per hectare again the best in the world.

                 [fixed typo in e-mail address]
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   17 August 2021 at 10:21 pm

                   Per capita seems like a stupid measure too me.

                   Intriguing opinion – I quite like per capita measures as a way of highlighting individual responsibilities, and whether (or not) NZers are punching above their weight, as we do for both methane emissions (bad) and food production (pretty good).

                   If we can agree that ruminant methane emissions are bad (for spaceship Earth, and so for the 'crew'), and that food production is good (for the crew, if not for the spaceship), then it only remains to figure out how to minimise the bad while retaining sufficient 'good'.

                   How hard can it be, how much longer might it take, and would it really be as bad as the Groundswell movement apparently believes it to be?

                   Yep, it’s bleak, says expert who tested 1970s end-of-the-world prediction
                   “The key finding of my study is that we still have a choice to align with a scenario that does not end in collapse. With innovation in business, along with new developments by governments and civil society, continuing to update the model provides another perspective on the challenges and opportunities we have to create a more sustainable world.”

                   Some more good news – just hope against hope it doesn't come to that.

                   New Zealand best place to survive global collapse of society – study
                   The study, published in the journal Sustainability, identified five out of 20 countries as best placed to maintain civilisation within their borders.

                   New Zealand came out on top – beating Iceland, the UK, Ireland and Australia, who all followed closely behind.
   • In Vino 2.4

     17 August 2021 at 8:55 pm

     And I keep hearing some of the less aware farmers claiming that methane is not a problem because it disappears after only 12 years.

     Yet they keep on producing more of that same methane every year.

     How can it disappear when they keep on producing it?
     • Macro 2.4.1

       17 August 2021 at 9:23 pm

       Actually the claim that it "disappears" is rather a false one. Yes methane may break down over a period of years, but into what? CO2 and water vapour – both Greenhouse gases.

       Troposphere[edit]

       The most effective sink of atmospheric methane is the hydroxyl radical in the troposphere, or the lowest portion of Earth's atmosphere. As methane rises into the air, it reacts with the hydroxyl radical to create water vapor and carbon dioxide. The mean lifespan of methane in the atmosphere was estimated at 9.6 years as of 2001; however, increasing emissions of methane over time reduce the concentration of the hydroxyl radical in the atmosphere.[41]With less OH˚ to react with, the lifespan of methane could also increase, resulting in greater concentrations of atmospheric methane.[75]

       Stratosphere[edit]

       If it is not destroyed in the troposphere, methane will last approximately 120 years before it is eventually destroyed in Earth's next atmospheric layer: the stratosphere. Destruction in the stratosphere occurs the same way that it does in the troposphere: methane is oxidized to produce carbon dioxide and water vapor. Based on balloon-borne measurements since 1978, the abundance of stratospheric methane has increased by 13.4%±3.6% between 1978 and 2003.[76]

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane
3. Ad 3

   17 August 2021 at 8:18 am

   Groundswell New Zealand says it is planning a "major nationwide protest event" in November, following a lack of response by the Government to its concerns.

   Although a date was yet to be set and details of the event outlined, spokesman Bryce McKenzie, of West Otago, said it would be "of a scale and impact that will be significant in New Zealand's history".

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/howl-of-a-protest-ii-groundswell-planning-even-larger-action-from-farmers/XGKNVUPK2MLXUA2VXGBJHWSHDQ/

   This is extremely good timing for the farmers to protest against this government.

   The government is in poll freefall and is a long way from bottoming out. This team want that third term like a bastard.

   In response, I suspect the government will show that they are listening carefully (even though there are very few votes to be turned in it), and walk back bunches of the water protection provisions.

   Very, very hard to see Mahuta's water governance reforms lasting.

   The green left have long since been given notice that they are not going to get their climate reforms in without a fight, and should have been able to arrange some kind of supportive counter-march by now. The first protest happened and the green left just sat back.

   Instead the field of civic action has been left free for the rural community to rise up and do it all again. So they are. And now have a much better chance of changing the government's mind as a result.
   • KSaysHi 3.1

     17 August 2021 at 9:36 am

     This is probably a super naive question, but why don't they just talk it through with the appropriate minister(s) and see if they can get some compromise? Seems like it went from being an issue to an OTT response very quickly. What have I missed?
     • Sacha 3.1.1

       17 August 2021 at 10:00 am

       They do not want a compromise. They expect their decades-long veto over any meaningful environmental action involving agribusiness to continue.
       • KSaysHi 3.1.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 11:18 am

         Oh. Thanks for the explanation.
   • KJT 3.2

     17 August 2021 at 10:04 am

     Greens more or less decided that giving the nut jobbery pro pollution protests, even more oxygen, is counterproductive.

     Considering they will eventually fall over their own cognitive dissonance.
     • Incognito 3.2.1

       17 August 2021 at 10:29 am

       Yup, enough rope …
       • DB Brown 3.2.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 11:04 am

         We keep broad-brushing the issue, and due to this failing to learn. Some of it we might push back on, some of it is entirely valid. Ignoring it will create a large voting block that takes from the left, who are simply being insulting, and making statements that show their own cognitive dissonance.

         Turning farms into pine is one of their issues. Who is the pine benefitting, cos it's an ecological insult to NZ.

         We're all concerned with mitigating climate. What are all these farmer bashing townies doing?
         • weka 3.2.1.1.1

           17 August 2021 at 11:18 am

           "We're all concerned with mitigating climate."

           But some are more concerned than others.

           The farming industry is lagging badly, like tourism. We need the farmers that want action on climate to organise and be public. Lefties bashing farmers won't help that happen.

           https://twitter.com/TerriLDonaldson/status/1427175533595353093
           • KJT 3.2.1.1.1.1

             17 August 2021 at 11:53 am

             In fact farmers like this one, and I know others, like him/her, tell me they get shouted down and drowned out in rural meetings by the Groundswell types.
             • weka …

               17 August 2021 at 12:07 pm

               I wasn't suggesting they try and change Groundswell, but set up their own version of Fed Farmers and get their own movements going.
               • Graeme …

                 17 August 2021 at 3:12 pm

                 Groundswell is as much trying to change FedFarmers as it is the Government, https://www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz/rural-news/rural-opinion/rural-voices-failing-farmers

                 Some farmers see Fed Farmers as a branch of the Green Party, so there's a fair bit of diversity there.

                 Prior to the Howl there was a lot of Fed activity trying to tone it down and get rid of the lunatic fringe. Groundswell co-operated, with varying success. https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rural-people/rural-group%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98wild-conspiracy-theories%E2%80%99-criticised
               • Shanreagh …

                 17 August 2021 at 7:43 pm

                 I am sure they do have contacts for reassurance. Some rural communities it is hard to be 'different' in any way.
             • vto …

               17 August 2021 at 2:46 pm

               yep, I get that in my area… not possible to have a proper discussion with most.. it instantly becomes a bomb-fest of useless loud one-liners, interspersed with derogatory comments about women politicians most commonly… been like it for decades
             • Shanreagh …

               17 August 2021 at 7:39 pm

               My mild mannered and not 'greenie' b-i-l planted and fenced his stream edges over 25 years ago and was suitably thought of as being odd and weird then. His sheep and cattle farm was able to transition, on the lower areas to dairy run-off in environmental safety. He keeps a good eye on the leased part of his property as some of the workers below herd manager levels can be a bit out of control and lacking in sense.

               The point is they pay their subs but just don't go to the Fed Farmers meetings to share or be shouted down. . Therefore innovation on the ground, localised, often does not filter out very far.

               The point also about living in a rural community especially for the more feisty 'incomers' used to living in towns, or rural thinkers is that to keep ahead you have to really stand schtum & basically 'shut-up.'. There is little tolerance in some rural communities for anyone who is deemed to rock the boat……in all sorts of ways from speaking out on low quality education strategies adopted by BoTs right through to changes in farming practices.

               Sometimes regulation or legislation or the threat of such is the only way to get the community working together to get the best from it rather than waiting for it to evolve incrementally, It won't happen incrementally as we saw with the response to the delay in higher farming standards and this:

               https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rural/2021/07/animal-welfare-campaigners-condemn-otago-southland-farmers-caught-grazing-stock-on-substandard-paddocks.html

               The Howl, in my circle were seen by some as a wing of the Nats or worse, and totally out of touch with CC because of the focus on utes and because the organisers had not thought through the impact of having silly off message signs about 'communism' and 'the treaty' and 'cindy' etc carried by the participants.
               • Shanreagh …

                 17 August 2021 at 8:06 pm

                 Another thing that puzzles my non greenie b-i-l are why there are different environmental standards for putting in things such as wood burners between those living in towns and those living in the country, His point is that smoke/particulate matter is released into the atmosphere whether in town or country and polluted air is polluted air.

                 The country towns used by this couple have incredibly poor or non- existent refuse or /recycling facilities. My sister travels 2 hours every couple of months to to cities with proper recycling facilities. Luckily they buy low plastic etc and have good storage. With reliance on tank water and water supply schemes getting contaminated sometimes they need to buy in drinking water.

                 The lack of proper recycling facilities leads to the continuation of the ubiquitous gut hole.

                 So dealing with waste in rural town and hinterlands is usually poor in comparison with cities.
                 • KJT …

                   17 August 2021 at 8:46 pm

                   Particulate rules for fireplaces are more about health than emissions.

                   Cities like Christchurch and Hamilton sit in basins, so particulates and smog hang around in the basin. Causing smog, visibility and health effects. Other places, conveniently, get them blown out to sea. Where it is ," someone else's problem".

                   For those places fireplace rules are less stringent.

                   I agree that different rules for different places can seem puzzling.
                 • KJT …

                   17 August 2021 at 9:05 pm

                   I used to stay on rellies farms, most long dead now. And the farms sold on.

                   Most of the streams were planted with trees and fenced.

                   They were proud of the thriving native stream life, "unlike those overseas rivers" where they are to polluted to support life. Lots of native eels, Koura etc.

                   Greens, of course, were a thing of the future

                   I wonder what they would have thought about the overloaded with nutrients, and dying, rivers and lakes we see now
         • KJT 3.2.1.1.2

           17 August 2021 at 11:25 am

           Those "farmer bashing townies" city businesses, and their employees, have for decades complied with safety and environmental requirements, and community regulations, way in excess of the fraction farmers have been dragged kicking and screaming into compliance with. Anyone who thinks farmers are being bashed, when they have simply lost their social licence, because of their own attitudes, is showing"cognitive dissonance". Farming is fast losing the huge amount of urban goodwill and support they once enjoyed. And it is entirely their own fault. Which saddens me because I have many farming relatives who are quietly getting on with it, looking at better ways of farming. Who didn’t join in the pro pollution protests
           • weka 3.2.1.1.2.1

             17 August 2021 at 12:07 pm

             Farmers aren't a hive mind, why talk about them as if they are?
             • crashcart …

               17 August 2021 at 1:32 pm

               Nor are "townies" but I have yet to see you pull DB Brown on it.
               • weka …

                 17 August 2021 at 1:47 pm

                 I don't read every comment on TS. Did you call them on it?
                 • crashcart …

                   17 August 2021 at 2:00 pm

                   No because I understand that when they are referring to townies, they are not intending to tar all townies with the same brush. The same as when they used a broad "lefties" term.

                   I chose to take their argument in the best possible light. That allows for the actual gist of the argument to be considered as opposed to derailing into a discussion about "not all men".
                   • DB Brown …

                     17 August 2021 at 7:30 pm

                     I'm both a townie and a leftie. Are these two words really an issue? A micro-aggression?

                     It's either ridiculously woke or shouting down groups. Some people need to get the fuck over themselves and stop being so precious about every damn thing.

                     How will we ever have conversations when most of it is derailed by all this mud slinging? Trot out the worst offenders, attach them to the entire group. Ignore or mock their issues. USA, coming your way.

                     And no, I'm not pointing at anyone in particular not everything said is about yourselves specifically.
                   • DB Brown …

                     17 August 2021 at 7:46 pm

                     'these farmer bashing townies' implies I'm talking about the townies who are farmer bashing. This really needs no qualification.

                     No crashcart I'm not addressing you specifically, who seem to have a grip on the silliness of all the lumping in, and the leaping to defend ourselves from nothing… it's just where this point has fallen in the conversation.
                 • In Vino …

                   17 August 2021 at 9:11 pm

                   Having been around for a while, I doubt DB Brown's sincerity, and see him as our newest troll, masquerading as a leftie.
                   • Jim …

                     18 August 2021 at 1:26 pm

                     Oh I don’t know. I think DB Brown might be a leftie masquerading as a farmer. Something about the writing style seems familiar.
                     let’s just say I don’t think you will ever see WTB in the same room as DB Brown.
                   • Incognito []

                     18 August 2021 at 1:43 pm

                     Perhaps you could stop speculating about commenters’ identities and comment on their comments rather, yes? Thanks in advance.
                   • weka []

                     18 August 2021 at 2:17 pm

                     WTB kindly allowed one of their comments to be published as a post, and asked for the name on the post to be DB Brown. That was in a comment on the front end, hardly a secret.

                     one of the reasons I put up the post is because WTB has over time provided interesting and thoughtful commentary on TS, often presenting counter points outside the binary narratives we too often get stuck in. I find it refreshing and stimulating to my own thought processes.

                     we often don’t like our beliefs being challenged, are more used to that coming from rw commenters but personally I’m finding the debate better when the dissent is varied in source.
                   • Incognito []

                     18 August 2021 at 2:53 pm

                     The avatars are identical. Still, Jim’s was a frivolous comment, IMO.
                   • weka …

                     18 August 2021 at 2:59 pm

                     @Incognito, the name change didn't trip the filter?
                   • Incognito []

                     18 August 2021 at 3:08 pm

                     Nope, because it had been approved previously and as far back as 2018, it appears 🙂

                     The thing with this is when the same person uses two different names interchangeably it can confuse others, which is why I tend to ask them to stick one user handle and one e-mail address. But DB Brown has not done this, so all good 🙂
                   • weka …

                     18 August 2021 at 3:00 pm

                     I thought it frivolous at first but then wondered if Jim was just pointing out in a humourous way that the DBB is a leftie.
                   • Incognito []

                     18 August 2021 at 3:11 pm

                     All good, but my sense of humour took a dive yesterday …
                   • weka …

                     18 August 2021 at 3:25 pm

                     Understandable.
                   • Macro …

                     18 August 2021 at 3:39 pm

                     DBB may be a bit of a Darkhorse. There has certainly been a good Draught around lately. At Uni in the late 60's we were required to sign a register that passed around the lecture theatre lecture in order to get "Terms" to sit the final exams. DB Lager, D Brown, L Red, M Mouse, and D Duck were very regular attendees 🙂
             • KJT …

               17 August 2021 at 1:47 pm

               Neither are townies, or those on welfare, or lefties! It appears farming is a "sacred cow" we are not allowed to upset with reality.

               In fact Farmers who are trying to clean up their act who talk to me agreeing about the pro pollution protests, are telling me they are a minority. And, unfortunately most are cleaning up their act because Fonterra and regulations are making them. Not from conviction.
           • vto 3.2.1.1.2.2

             17 August 2021 at 2:50 pm

             KJT "city businesses, and their employees, have for decades complied with safety and environmental requirements, and community regulations, way in excess of the fraction farmers have been dragged kicking and screaming into compliance with."

             Was exactly my point yesterday

             These issues are the exact same as faced by everyone in business – in type and scale. Yet the others don't cry about it to anything like the same extent. And they certainly don't get exceptions made for them (e.g. excused from the ETS).

             I am yet to see this point answered, but have my eyes peeled.
   • Jenny how to get there 3.3

     17 August 2021 at 10:16 am

     Ad

     17 August 2021 at 8:18 am

     ……This is extremely good timing for the farmers to protest against this government.

     The government is in poll freefall and is a long way from bottoming out. This team want that third term like a bastard….

     Ad, if you are so sure that this government support is in freefall and has not yet bottomed out, then all Groundswell have to do, is wait and vote them out. No need for protest action.

     It will take a lot to convince me that this government will lose the next election. If the government stay on track. If they continue to stay on top of their pandemic response, if they continue to keep New Zealanders safe, while the rest of the world is in covid torment, then Labour will win the next election.

     If Labour Government, finally get on top of the housing crisis, then in my opinion Labour will win the next two elections after that, as well.

     The Right, (including Groundswell), sense that this Government is not going away any time soon. Knowing, they are not going to get their way from any compliant National led administration, Groundswell are using direct protest pressure to try and convince the current government into backing down over its environmental protection regulations.

     This is why Groundswell supporters feel the need to hold these protests.
   • Gabby 3.4

     17 August 2021 at 10:22 am

     They may have decided to let them make fools of themselves unmolested.
     • Ad 3.4.1

       17 August 2021 at 10:26 am

       That's quite a risk to take.
       • Gabby 3.4.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 10:38 am

         I wouldn't bet against it.
       • Patricia Bremner 3.4.1.2

         17 August 2021 at 2:40 pm

         Those Groundswell people are entitled to protest. We are a democracy. If they name call and deny science people will call them out. I know who will look silly, and it won't be Jacinda or Labour.
     • Stuart Munro 3.4.2

       17 August 2021 at 10:35 pm

       There is also that issue of disorder and violence, which history shows us result in disproportionate bruises and arrests among those who oppose Massey's Cossacks. Better to let the tractor crowd wander aimlessly and rage against the rising sealevels like king Knut. It aint the Chch shooters that get surveilled or arrested, it's the Keith Lockes.
       • Robert Guyton 3.4.2.1

         18 August 2021 at 2:21 pm

         Is Knut, Canute? Does not compute 🙂
         • Poission 3.4.2.1.1

           18 August 2021 at 2:38 pm

           Cnut is the patron saint of proof readers.

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great
         • Stuart Munro 3.4.2.1.2

           20 August 2021 at 10:45 pm

           Knut is more the way the Danes wrote it – it ain't easy carving a C into a runestick with a knife. Spelling standardized a bit later on.
   • Jenny how to get there 3.5

     17 August 2021 at 10:22 am

     Ad

     17 August 2021 at 8:18 am

     ……The green left have long since been given notice that they are not going to get their climate reforms in without a fight, and should have been able to arrange some kind of supportive counter-march by now. The first protest happened and the green left just sat back……

     Ad, yes you are right, we on the Left are prepared to fight for climate reforms, using peaceful and democratic means, and where necessary non-violent civil disobedience. And be prepared to be arrested for it, if that is what it takes.

     We will not be organising any counter-march to Groundswell.

     My advice to the Left; Do not be drawn into a street brawl with the right wing losers of Groundswell.

     Ad if you are trying to incite some sort of confrontation to embarrass the government then you are going the right way about it.

     We have no objection to Groundswell holding their protest march in November, that is their democratic right. If they break the law, I fully expect the authorities to act to arrest them, as they so often do for Left protesters, let see how committed these right wing protesters really are to their beliefs.

     My feeling; If Groundswell's November protest is anything like their last protest, with the same racist and sexist and climate change denying and conpiracy messaging, they will disgrace themselves in the eyes of most New Zealanders without the Left having to do anything.
     • Ad 3.5.1

       17 August 2021 at 10:25 am

       You just sound like you're too posh to push.

       If we are so smug we can't even organise a counter-protest to support the government, we stand a much greater chance of losing out of sheer self-righteousness.
       • Gabby 3.5.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 10:48 am

         Sounds like you'll be out protesting even if nobody else is, you firebrand, you. Can you lead a protest of one from the back?
       • weka 3.5.1.2

         17 August 2021 at 11:20 am

         If we are so smug we can't even organise a counter-protest to support the government, we stand a much greater chance of losing out of sheer self-righteousness.

         Not can't, won't.

         Greenies etc won't organise a counter protest to support the government because we believe the government is dragging the chain and/or cementing in neoliberal systems that are problematic from a green perspective.

         Labourites won't because they don't.
         • Robert Guyton 3.5.1.2.1

           17 August 2021 at 11:30 am

           There were some "counter-protests" at the first "howlin'" – Extinction Rebellion people sat on a pedestrian crossing and halted the "mighty convoy" of tractors and Utes in one centre – and received abuse for their troubles ("Get the freaks off the road" one son of the soil intoned, repeatedly). Similar responses were mounted elsewhere and the reactions were the same.

           Jenny htgt @10:22 am makes the valid point that the ill-disciplined, mysogynistic, racist etc. messages that accompanied the first howlin' harmed the whole protest, but I would suggest those "cowboys" will be reined-in by now and the idiotic placards won't appear again…unless… 🙂
           • weka 3.5.1.2.1.1

             17 August 2021 at 12:14 pm

             Will be interesting to see how they develop.

             I'm curious what the media reporting was of the XR actions, and what the wider community thought. It's a tactical mistake imo for XR to target rural people in conservative communities, and I'd ask what they are trying to achieve.

             XR in the UK has been so successful because they were very smart (head and heart) in how they impacted on the general population. You have to meet people half way and bring them along.

             Going hard against the banks, Fonterra, Big Oil is a different matter, still needs some intuitive sense.

             The power that XR UK has isn't in stopping traffic, it comes from somewhere else. Trying to import the techniques without the kaupapa isn't going to work (imho).
             • Robert Guyton …

               17 August 2021 at 12:35 pm

               I agree.
             • Robert Guyton …

               17 August 2021 at 1:23 pm

               Don't waste your heart and mind trying to pull down what is already destroying itself 🙂 Not my words.

               “The wave of the future is on the local level. Don’t waste your heart and mind trying to pull down what is already destroying itself. But come into where you’re almost below the radar and reorganize life. We want communities where we live and work and fight for the future.” – Joanna Macy
               • weka …

                 17 August 2021 at 1:46 pm

                 that's a stunningly good quote. I'm working through their active hope process at the moment, seeing a lot of potential for good responses.
       • Patricia Bremner 3.5.1.3

         17 August 2021 at 2:41 pm

         That is wet Ad.
     • Robert Guyton 3.5.2

       17 August 2021 at 10:34 am

       Something about wrestling, and the coating you'll receive comes to mind.
       • Ad 3.5.2.1

         17 August 2021 at 11:44 am

         Aye true but that is politics. In every respect this is a shit fight.
         • Robert Guyton 3.5.2.1.1

           17 August 2021 at 11:51 am

           Ha! Well, yes, but you'd only want to throw yourself into the sty and wrestle if you were confident of gaining something significant from the engagement. What do you suggest greenies might gain from waving placards at huge farm vehicles?
           • Ad 3.5.2.1.1.1

             17 August 2021 at 2:20 pm

             Televisual glory, of course! More Twitter feeds than you can shake a stick at. Something to rally the team again. Like we used to do in Helen Clark's second term.
             • Robert Guyton …

               17 August 2021 at 4:59 pm

               Groundswell are proposing to toot us into submission:

               "The first event is on this Friday 20th August 2021 under the banner of "CAN YOU HEAR US".

               At 12:30 pm all around New Zealand, Groundswell NZ are calling for 2 minutes of show of support by every car, bike, truck, train – anything with a horn, tooting in support of our campaign.

               Then this will be repeated every Friday for the following 3 weeks."

               I propose a counter-campaign under the banner "STFU" – the placards will be easy to produce 🙂
               • McFlock …

                 17 August 2021 at 5:11 pm

                 I wonder if the cops will enforce the rules about unreasonable use of horns as much as they RUC-checked all the tractors peddling through town? lol
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   17 August 2021 at 5:21 pm

                   Doubtless they'll come down hard on the trouble-makers, as they do with any other protester.

                   "Groundswell NZ is calling for all landowners to decline access for councils or their agents wanting to undertake mapping or information gathering on private land. Groundswell NZ has identified serious implications with this information gathering that landowners are largely unaware of."

                   Isn't this inciting civil disobedience?
                   • McFlock …

                     17 August 2021 at 5:27 pm

                     Well, it's a strategy I guess.
               • DB Brown …

                 17 August 2021 at 7:36 pm

                 Counter protest STFU – funny AF.
               • Graeme …

                 17 August 2021 at 9:57 pm

                 Today's events will have will have effectively canceled this Friday's effort, they will be pushing the Essential Service definition to go into town to protest. That'll be an interesting interaction with the police officer.

                 Going much past this week and calving / lambing will be getting into full swing, and lots else will be making the farm a pretty busy place. And that's assuming we're only in lockdown for 3 – 7 days.

                 They won't have the spare time they had last month when about all that was happening on farm was feeding out maybe once a day. Once we get to late November farms will be before daylight to well after dusk, 7 days a week workplaces. If farmers can find time to play around protesting then, their protestations about staff shortages are waffle.
             • Gabby …

               17 August 2021 at 4:59 pm

               They'll be out taking photos of muddy livestock on muddy farms while the farmers are all in town on their tractors.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 17 August 2021 at 5:01 pm

                 🙂
                 Drones to counter the drone.
   • Graeme 3.6

     17 August 2021 at 11:21 am

     The irony is that the National Standards malarkey came about because the District focused approach of the RMA was too hard and gave some perverse boundary issues. There's a pretty stark example at Queensbury (just out of Wanaka) where quite intensive grazing is allowed in Central Otago but not just down the road in Queenstown Lakes District. Unfortunately the boundary goes through a farm unit. There's lots of other examples around the Country and this did farmer's heads in. So they petitioned the previous government for consistency between Districts, hence National Environmental Standards.

     Now the current Government is getting those National Standards in place farmers are realising why the RMA took a District and catchment specific approach.
     • Ad 3.6.1

       17 August 2021 at 11:46 am

       It's still been pretty outrageous to see the regional catchment regulator Otago Regional Council take such a soft stance, since they cover those catchments you mention. Witness their stated inability to regulate for air quality even though it is one of their statutory jobs. So residents like Cromwell suffer through it.
       • Graeme 3.6.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 12:36 pm

         ORC has been a waste of space since it was formed. It's always been farmer and Dunedin dominated and as soon as something comes up that will restrict farming it rapidly becomes dysfunctional. The deemed permit fiasco and Manuherikia minimum flow / overallocation show how difficult ORC are finding things. Both issues aren't totally of their own making, multiple governments going back to year dot have been involved and it's left to the local level to try and sort the differences, which are almost insurmountable without someone / something being badly hurt.
     • vto 3.6.2

       17 August 2021 at 2:54 pm

       Graeme "

       The irony is that the National Standards malarkey came about because the District focused approach of the RMA was too hard and gave some perverse boundary issues. There's a pretty stark example at Queensbury (just out of Wanaka) where quite intensive grazing is allowed in Central Otago but not just down the road in Queenstown Lakes District. Unfortunately the boundary goes through a farm unit. There's lots of other examples around the Country and this did farmer's heads in. So they petitioned the previous government for consistency between Districts, hence National Environmental Standards.

       Now the current Government is getting those National Standards in place farmers are realising why the RMA took a District and catchment specific approach."

       …

       That is very interesting and well worth keeping front of mind, as this is one of their major whinges.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 3.7

     17 August 2021 at 12:08 pm

     Groundswell New Zealand says it is planning a "major nationwide protest event" in November…

     Genieus – November's generally drier than July, but beware in Southland, where Groundswell might yet meet ‘Let the River Swell‘.

     A storm is coming – and it’s one that will drown out Groundswell's howl
     OPINION: Mother nature has a delightful sense of irony.

     Not hours after the last Groundswell tractor chugged home, in a cloud of diesel fumes, the rains began to fall.

     MetService issued a red warning – only the third in its history. A month’s average rainfall came down in two days in parts of the West Coast.

     More than 2000 people were forced from their homes, major roads were closed, paddocks submerged, and Buller and Marlborough had to declare local states of emergency.
4. alwyn 4

   17 August 2021 at 10:32 am

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/126093589/americas-cup-small-chance-of-nz-hosting-next-defence

   I wonder if Mr Dalton has found that there really isn't that much interest in the America's Cup anymore and that there aren't people willing to pay him enormous amounts of money for the "privilege" of holding it?

   Well the Government must take this chance to tell him NO. We don't need it and we don't want it. We are free of the stupid thing and we want to stay that way. At least I, and people I have talked to about it, don't want it. Trevor Mallard probably would love to have it back but he really shouldn't count.

   Don't, under any circumstances, offer Dalton anything. Kick him out of his taxpayer funded quarters in Auckland and tell him to pay for his own inflated standard of living in the future. He has been ripping off the New Zealand taxpayer, and the Auckland ratepayer, for far too long.
5. Robert Guyton 5

   17 August 2021 at 11:47 am

   Good explanation from Baz:

   "At its core, the regenerative approach is about finding balance between the land a farmer has, and what it can naturally support.

   This means less fertilisers, no irrigation, no imported feed – just the natural cycles of sun, air, water and soil that have produced life for time eternal.

   Regenerative farmers say if this balance is struck, animals actually become part of the natural cycle of the land, instead of overwhelming it. All that poo and pee becomes natural fertiliser, instead of pollution."

   https://www.renews.co.nz/dairy-cant-manage-its-crap-but-innovative-farmers-are-trying-to-fix-that/
   • Janet 5.1

     17 August 2021 at 2:02 pm

     Yes Robert ,

     The natural fertility builds up with rotational grazing… this was the way we ( my husband and I and other young farmers ) were farming fifty years ago – before us my great grandfather, my grandfather and my father, until agricultural scientists influenced him otherwise , were farming more like what you would now call “regenerative” farming. Our children are farming sustainably and are financially penalised because they do. eg land rates are geared to the returns of unsustainable farming !
6. Forget now 6

   17 August 2021 at 12:10 pm

   The Pin has been pulled out of the grenade:

   A fortnight ago, driven to despair by long waiting lists, inadequate staffing levels and inefficient working conditions, the departmental health and safety representative lodged a provisional improvement notice (Pin) with the SDHB.

   A Pin is a statutory device under the Health and Safety at Work Act which requires a workplace to display the notice and take steps within eight days to address the safety issues raised or face possible further action.

   That eight-day period has expired, and the Pin has been referred to WorkSafe for further action.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/health/worksafe-steps-over-ed-concerns

   The HSR complaint was due to; understaffing and poor facilities in the old Dunedin hospital. Meaning that ED nurses had run out of toilets to cry in, while suffering mental distress from being unable to do their work safely in a professional environment.

   Pressure of high patient numbers and low staffing levels routinely meant staff went into the toilets to cry, emergency department health and safety representative Anne Daniels said.

   Last Thursday, after a nurse told her there were no toilets free to cry in, Ms Daniels lodged a provisional improvement notice (Pin) with the Southern District Health Board…

   ‘‘This nurse said, ‘Who gives a damn? Someone will die’,’’ Ms Daniels said.

   ‘‘The Pin is the last straw. We have been living this for the past 18 months.

   ‘‘We have been compromising and making do for too long, and we can no longer do that.’’

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/health/someone-will-die-ed-staff-take-legal-action-work-conditions

   I am curious if Little, as; Minister of Health, is liable for this negligence? It wouldn't surprise me if the DHBs are constructed specifically so as to provide a cutout for ministerial responsibility, the legalese is fairly impenetrable to a nonlawyer (PCBU = Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking). I imagine the SDHB will be looking for someone to do the time (or pay the fine) for them:

   A person who commits an offence against subsection (1) is liable on conviction,—

   (a) for an individual who is not a PCBU or an officer of a PCBU, to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 5 years or a fine not exceeding $300,000, or both:

   (b) for an individual who is a PCBU or an officer of a PCBU, to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 5 years or a fine not exceeding $600,000, or both:

   (c) for any other person, to a fine not exceeding $3 million.

   https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2015/0070/latest/DLM5976917.html
7. weka 7

   17 August 2021 at 12:18 pm

   Interesting short discussion about Delta variant.

   https://twitter.com/marcdaalder/status/1427405469795061761
   • weka 7.1

     17 August 2021 at 12:21 pm

     More here

     https://twitter.com/Anna_bw/status/1427407262226599936
   • Poission 7.2

     17 August 2021 at 12:35 pm

     The consensus with aerosol science is that covid spread is mostly due to it being airborne.(formites less so)

     https://twitter.com/jljcolorado/status/1391111720526024708

     Deltas viral load is 1000x greater then its antecedent strains.
     • Stuart Munro 7.2.1

       17 August 2021 at 2:39 pm

       One would have expected that, with an ailment called severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, the respiratory bit would be enough to clue folk up.
       • Poission 7.2.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 2:55 pm

         You would think the obvious would hold,but like masks and a number of studies on masks that were not even wrong,heuristics are often constrained.

         https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1425428696748462080
8. Poission 8

   17 August 2021 at 2:39 pm

   Community case in AK again.Stop flights out at once.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126097187/covid19-health-officials-investigating-new-community-case-in-auckland
9. Sabine 9

   17 August 2021 at 2:39 pm

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126097187/covid19-health-officials-investigating-new-community-case-in-auckland

   lets hope that once more we get lucky.

   One new positive case in the community is being investigated, the Ministry of Health confirmed.

   The positive case was identified in Auckland on Tuesday afternoon.

   The link to the border or managed isolation has not yet been established.

   Anyone in Auckland catching public transport or who cannot socially distance in public spaces should wear a mask as a precaution, the ministry said.
   • Herodotus 9.1

     17 August 2021 at 3:22 pm

     We were lucky with Wellington and Tauranga to name 2, eventually the odds mean that we will have an outbreak.

     My thoughts go out to our already under stressed health workers, should this case expand to others.
     • Sabine 9.1.1

       17 August 2021 at 3:38 pm

       honestly, i would not want to be a health worker atm, they are made of better stuff then i am.
       • In Vino 9.1.1.1

         17 August 2021 at 9:19 pm

         +1 Sabine
10. weka 10

    17 August 2021 at 3:00 pm

    https://twitter.com/henrycooke/status/1427458032280117251?s=21

    take care out there today folks.

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