Open Mike 17/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 17th, 2018 - 193 comments
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193 comments on “Open Mike 17/09/2018”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1

    “Every day of our lives, we are on the verge of making those slight changes that would make all the difference.”
    ~ Mignon McLaughlin

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 3

    Check out this 9 year old girl who Pauline Hanson wants to kick up the backside for refusing to stand for the Australian National Anthem.

    Seriously I love this little girl!

    When interviewed about her decision not to stand for the anthem, Harper said her objection lay with the line “Advance Australia fair”, which completely disregarded indigenous people. She also said the phrase “we are young” dissed indigenous Australians who pre-empted white Australians by 50,000 years.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/107094023/jane-bowron-we-should-stand-up-for-the-right-to-sit-down

  3. cleangreen 4

    Poor Duncan Garner!!

    Today on the AM show he certainly can’t cope with Labour’s rejection of not using him for the release of Jacinda’s reset speech yesterday as now on the AM show je is spitting sparks at labour.

    Poor Duncan. – Get over it Duncan.

    • Ed 4.1

      It would be good if the government bypassed the media totally to avoid the filter their owners want to add.

      • Yes, Its like how Murdock purchased the UK,s left leaning working class tabloids like the Sun and Mail and slowly turned them and their readers right wing. Its happening here.

      • Herodotus 4.1.2

        Really???
        Since the demise of Holmes Polly’s have been getting away with literal murder
        Question time at parliament is a joke
        Where does both the govt and opposition get challenged in a format that is widely available to the public ?
        They lie to us don’t front up, and are challenged and the media is so crap and finding them out. The public is left with an”reality” format to vote in our govts.

        • adam 4.1.2.1

          Are you living under a rock? This government is easily more accessible compared to the last, where all you got was the ponytail puller.

          • Herodotus 4.1.2.1.1

            We have The Nation and Q&A that most don’t watch
            How do we see who is and who is not competent ?
            At least with Holmes Polly’s were expected to turn up and were placed under the blow torch, from
            Memory Holmes was highly competent and had some highly skilled researchers. Now we have token celebs (self promoting themselves) asking the questions 🤪

            • adam 4.1.2.1.1.1

              So you don’t go to meetings, nor use the internet then.

              Which seems to be what your saying.

              As for Holmes, I think your over egging that one.

              • Herodotus

                I take some notice, many are not as involved in what’s going on as many who contribute to this and other political sites.
                I disagree re Holmes
                Where else do the public see where our leaders want to take nz to and are held to account ?
                Both the last and the current govts have made undertakings which have been seen to be false or hollow ?
                Key in his war on P,or the current govt on reducing net immigration by 20 to 50k ?

      • cleangreen 4.1.3

        100% I support your views there Ed.

        Why don’t we start a crowdfunding for something like; a program to restore the Waatea “fifth estate? live screen nightly political broadcast that Martyn Bradbury successfully produced, and use that to broadcast the coalition nightly polity’s in a talk back show with guests?

        This would cost a minimal amount. Can’t we get the financial costs that program cost for the 2016 season before national canned it as being to ‘expose” for them?

        • Stuart Munro 4.1.3.1

          There was a Korean newspaper that was funded in this fashion in response to the Park years. (the Hankyoreh) A former president who is presently under investigation for corruption (Lee Myung Bak) did his best to close it down.

          It broke well researched long form stories, and one of its leading journalists (whose childhood friend was slain by police under Chun do Hwan) came up with a rather sophisticated democratic model for finding a location for nuclear waste storage – the government offered a regional development package as inducement, with the province that generated the highest level of public support for its proposal securing it. We would wait a long time to see NZ media generating comparably enlightened policy.

    • Muttonbird 4.2

      Until Garner can learn to behave himself he’s not going to get that inside info he used to through Key.

  4. corodale 5

    The Dalai Lama says ‘Europe belongs to Europeans’ and refugees should return to their native countries to rebuild them’

    Dalai Lama was speaking at a conference in Sweden’s third-largest city of Malmö
    He said Europe was ‘morally responsible’ for helping those fleeing their countries, but ultimately refugees should ‘develop their own country’
    His words come after far-right populist party Sweden Democrats made gains in the country’s general election

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6159933/Dalai-Lama-says-Europe-belongs-Europeans.html

    I always liked the Dalai Lama, and I agree with the logic. I wish the NZ Green Party policy experts could understand this perspective too. The Greens have members who also work for the UN, and said to me, “refugees seek a new permanent home,..” Which may be true.

    But, I said, “if we offered non-permanent refugee status, with the aim of sending refugees home again, and potentially be involved with NZ supported redevelopment projects… creating positive international relations… Wouldn’t that gain more broad spectrum political support, so we could increase support for refugees?”

    But time and time again, I get the feeling the UN policy is based on “die with dignity” rather than “sovereign empowerment” for these troubled lands.

    • Sacha 5.1

      Who ultimately created these refugees in the first place, by arming and supporting factions in nations around the world for decades? Europe is just getting some karma. It is not up to refugees to fix bigger problems.

      • Wayne 5.1.1

        In Syria I think the blame can be put fair and square on Assad. Virtually all the millions of refugees from Syria were trying to escape him. Not the fault of the Europeans at all.

        • Sacha 5.1.1.1

          And who armed and politically protected Assad? Europe not the only player in every nation, sure.

          • Wayne 5.1.1.1.1

            Sacha,

            Mostly Russia.

            Syria is the only place where the Russians/Soviets have had a Mediterranean naval base for many decades. Virtually all Syrian armed forces equipment is Soviet bloc, and more recently, Russian. Planes, helicopters, tanks, artillery, light weapons are all Russian, and have been for at least five decades.

            For instance in the Yom Kippur war, the Syrian Army’s soviet era T62 tanks were no match for Israel’s western tanks, especially the British Centurion. Basically the T62 could not depress its gun below horizontal which meant its base was exposed to Israeli tank counter fire. The Russian tanks had too low a profile, probably designed for flat open steppe country of eastern Europe and Ukraine.

            So Syria has had Soviet/Russian era equipment for the last 50 years.

        • Poission 5.1.1.2

          Well your assumption would be wrong.They are fleeing both.

          As Max Abrahms reports in Foreign affairs.

          Few observers even know what they’ve been advocating, given the pro-rebel bias among Western media outlets. Although they have assiduously broadcast the blood on Assad’s hands, these outlets have also tended to whitewash the rebels to sell the case for regime change. Take, for instance, the Syrian refugee crisis. The conventional wisdom holds that the refugees are pro-rebel, even though detailed survey research finds that the reality is far more nuanced. Most refugees say they fled Assad. But they also say they fled the armed opposition. By far, the most common explanation was that refugees fled both. Honest reporting about all sides of the conflict is imperative for governments and citizens around the world to understand the nature of the regime and the opposition alike.

          https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2017-10-30/syrias-extremist-opposition

        • Dukeofurl 5.1.1.3

          Only something like 1/3 of the refugees to Europe were really Syrians -the rest came from the Middle east and Afghanistan, even India and pakistan
          https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/migrants-are-disguising-themselves-as-syrians-to-gain-entry-to-europe/2015/09/22/827c6026-5bd8-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html

          ‘A couple of reporters, one a native Arabic speaker, who wandered through train stations in Vienna found plenty of newcomers whose accents did not match their stories and whose stories did not make sense.’

          We can remember the partition of India led to say 10 mill refugees

          The UN dividing Palestine into Jewish and Arab states and the resulting war let to 720,000 refugees , none of them jewish.

          Soviet occupation of Afghanistan led to more than 5 mill refugees to niegbouring countries

        • Stuart Munro 5.1.1.4

          He’s really only continuing the model established by his father unfortunately, and leadership in the region, Jordanian for example, has been nothing to boast of. Which was why the US was so hopeful about the various Arab spring movements, though they sent a pretty mixed message having invaded Iraq for perfectly unenlightened reasons, and making a lousy job of establishing a replacement for the Hussein government.

        • mauī 5.1.1.5

          Well I spose I shouldn’t be surprised that you think Assad was the sole cause of one of the largest refugee crises in recent times.

          One day he woke up and decided to force millions of his own citizens to leave. Seriously? It’s interesting that as soon as the west showed an interest in Syria things got a lot worse. Assad must go talk and the problem with IS becoming greater and greater. Terrorists and foreign fighters flooding and tearing apart the country. Let me guess you think they all came from Russia??

          • Stuart Munro 5.1.1.5.1

            Actually IS peaked a long while back.

            IS mostly weren’t fighting Assad, that was a broad brush he used on his enemies to dilute international condemnation. Al Nusra, who claimed to be Al Qaeda, but largely weren’t, also talked up their links with ISIS so as to associate with their success after the fall of Mosul.

            • mauī 5.1.1.5.1.1

              So all those maps that the media pumped out of ISIS controlled areas in Iraq and Syria over the last few years were in fact just Assad propaganda?

              • Ed

                Maui, Stuart is an entrenched neocon warrior.
                He wants war with Russia.

                • Stuart Munro

                  Ed, you know less than nothing about this issue.

                  Better not to open your stupid trap.

                  • Ed

                    Yes I know nothing.
                    I read the following authors as authorities and sources on the subject.

                    Robert Fisk.
                    Patrick Cockburn.
                    John PIlger
                    Jeremy Scahill
                    Joe Sacco
                    Christopher Hedges.
                    Glenn Greenwald.
                    George Galloway.
                    Stephen Kinzer
                    Eva Bartlett
                    Vanessa Beeley

                    I know nothing.

                    • McFlock

                      yes.

                      Because you only consider writers as “authorities” if you already agree with them, or (just as likely) you can persuade yourself that they wrote something you agree with.

                    • marty mars

                      ed – you know LESS than nothing. Try reading what people write please.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Ed, I was working just across the border when this shit went down.
                      My colleagues and I paid really close attention because it’s not unheard of for the knives to come out in these places, given sufficient provocation.

                      Yes, I’m afraid that your reading has not left you well informed on this issue. I suspect that is because you favour writers or podcasters who overdramatize over those who concentrate on the facts.

                      You’re also given to floating fatuous lies like “He wants war with Russia” – Nothing could be further from the truth – I want the bellicose Mr Putin to stay within his borders.

                    • Ed

                      So you think these authors are not reputable,independent and experienced?
                      Who do you listen to?
                      CNN?

                    • Ed

                      What about the bellicose Mr Trump?
                      He and his nation seem to be invading a hell of a lot more countries than Putin ever did.

                      I’m with Morrissey on this matter.
                      I don’t think you read widely at all on issues.
                      He showed you up yesterday on your lack of reading with reference to Chomsky.

                    • Ed

                      And Marty the stalker arrives….
                      To join his gang of neocon bully boys..

                    • Stuart Munro

                      “Who do you listen to? CNN?”

                      Reuters is more consistent in identifying their sources, and, having a class of Arab gentlemen at the time, we checked our interpretations with them.

                      The consequences of getting it wrong seemed worth avoiding.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      “He showed you up yesterday on your lack of reading with reference to Chomsky.”

                      You must be referring to his lying through his teeth that England funded ISIS, a claim he cannot validate, which has obliged him to hide his head in shame ever since.

                      Not only have I read Chomsky for decades, I’ve got a piece of paper to prove it, so you’re barking up the wrong tree there.

                    • Ed

                      Morrissey reads widely and is highly informed on such matters.
                      He is not a parrot for the corporate media or a lackey of the neoliberal establishment. He searches for independent sources and shares his findings with us.
                      He has contempt for most NZ media.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      “What about the bellicose Mr Trump?
                      He and his nation seem to be invading a hell of a lot more countries than Putin ever did.”

                      I take it you are familiar with the term whataboutery? You might want to reflect on it.

                      Trump is a pretty bad fellow, it’s true. He has not however, launched a lot of invasions. He has talked about invading North Korea, and Venezuela, and supplied materiale to Saudi with which they bomb Yemen, but he hasn’t invaded a lot of countries – personal space is more his thing.

                      And of course, when one rewrites a constitution to make oneself president for life, that creates a much longer invasion biography than those of conventional limited term presidents.

                    • Ed

                      Stuart, are you aware what this list represents?

                      China 1945-46
                      Korea 1950-53
                      China 1950-53
                      Guatemala 1954
                      Indonesia 1958
                      Cuba 1959-60
                      Guatemala 1960
                      Belgian Congo 1964
                      Guatemala 1964
                      Dominican Republic 1965-66
                      Peru 1965
                      Laos 1964-73
                      Vietnam 1961-73
                      Cambodia 1969-70
                      Guatemala 1967-69
                      Lebanon 1982-84
                      Grenada 1983-84
                      Libya 1986
                      El Salvador 1981-92
                      Nicaragua 1981-90
                      Iran 1987-88
                      Libya 1989
                      Panama 1989-90
                      Iraq 1991
                      Kuwait 1991
                      Somalia 1992-94
                      Bosnia 1995
                      Iran 1998
                      Sudan 1998
                      Afghanistan 1998
                      Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999
                      Afghanistan 2001
                      Libya 2011

                      It is the list of countries the USA has bombed since World War 2.

                      And I assume you’ve seen this before.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Yes – it’s not a defense Ed.

                      First you want to talk about Trump, and then most of the last century, oh and now it’s bombing, not invasion.

                      Russia’s list would be of similar length.

                      These actions are wrong. Russia is wrong when it does them too.

                      But, being their intellectual captive, you can never admit it.

              • McFlock

                Nah. They just peaked in area some time in 2015, and some of the cartographers might have been a bit careless in distinguishing between rebel groups.

              • Stuart Munro

                More likely the media were simply lazy.

                We often get people talking about who funded ISIS, when the distinguishing characteristic of ISIS was that they were largely self funded, chiefly by seizing about half a billion in cash when they seized Mosul.

                Not the best link, but contains the facts: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/12/isis-just-stole-425-million-and-became-the-worlds-richest-terrorist-group/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.06e27297e4eb

                This made them independent of some of the conservative groups that funded other jihadist groups. And from the millenarian perspective of potential recruits it looked a bit like the mandate of heaven.

                “Had it not been for Bush’s catastrophic decision to invade and occupy Iraq in 2003, in defiance of international law, the world’s most feared terrorist group would not exist today. ISIS is blowback.”

                again, not the best link, but the facts are there: https://theintercept.com/2018/01/29/isis-iraq-war-islamic-state-blowback/

                ISIS, being a response to the Iraq invasion, wasn’t by any means primarily concerned with Assad.

        • corodale 5.1.1.6

          The Syrian refugees I talked to, said it was war for resources and geo-politics. They didn’t complain to me about the Syrian Govt. I got the impression they supported their govt. But I guess they weren’t the hand picked “UN-refugees”.

        • Bill 5.1.1.7

          @ Wayne
          Not the fault of the Europeans at all.

          Well…I suppose what with Timber Sycamore being a covert CIA operation, you can get away with that to a degree Wayne. Hmm…until we factor in the logistical, financial and other support given to Jihadists by European governments. 😉

          People fleeing Syria were….fleeing Syria.

      • cleangreen 5.1.2

        Hey sacha;

        I spent some working life in Africa as a kiwi and can say that the tribes have been waging war against each other for many years before Europeans set foot in Africa and the same holds true in other countries and even in NZ as Maori tribes here fought each other for over a century before the British came here.

        it is not a case of who caused the refugees it is the human condition that caused it of indifference.

      • corodale 5.1.3

        But aiming to send them home, means aiming to restore peace. Peace needs to be focus, not integration.

    • SaveNZ 5.2

      Totally agree with Dalai Lama. Having massive movements of people – you simply can’t fit more and more people into certain countries without it effecting the cultures of both countries, while ignoring the issues that are leading to people leaving and thinking it is sustainable as a long term practise.

      The world is diverse, people are diverse and either you believe in pluralism or you think every country should be the same, via globalism.

      Personally think that the world has gone too far into globalism and pluralism is suffering.

      pluralism
      noun
      the existence in a society of groups having distinctive ethnic origin, cultural forms, religions, etc
      a theory that views the power of employers as being balanced by the power of trade unions in industrial relations such that the interests of both sides can be catered for
      philosophy
      the metaphysical doctrine that reality consists of independent entities rather than one unchanging wholeCompare monism (def. 2), absolutism (def. 2b)

      https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pluralisglobalism

      Globalism

      The operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis.
      ‘millions have lost jobs to the new globalism’

      https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/globalism

  5. gsays 6

    It has gone quiet on 1080 round here lately so…

    Just heard on the radio that Nick Smith increased the amount of land that 1080 was dumped on from 100,000 hectares to 800,000 hectares.

    Shudder.

    When does this practice stop?
    I don’t mean that as an emotional rhetorical question, but as a genuine inquiry.
    In the plan for using 1080, is there a measure for when it will stop being ‘applied’. Pest count? (If you can count them in the ‘inpenetrable’ forests, surely you can kill them).

    Or do we have the the 1080 teat in our mouth and will struggle to take it out.

    • Stunned Mullet 6.1

      Good news, 1080 is the most well researched and effective method for reducing pests in NZ forest.

      • gsays 6.1.1

        ok, so nothing new to add to the discussion.
        just a highly subjective comment.

        • Stunned Mullet 6.1.1.1

          “just a highly subjective comment.”

          Um no – 1080 is the most well researched and effective method for reducing pests in NZ forest.

          http://www.1080facts.co.nz/

          • gsays 6.1.1.1.1

            err, yes, a highly subjective opinion.

            the ‘facts’ you link to is a joint effort from federated farmers and forest and bird.
            both, like you apparently, are in the TINA camp.

            Edit: one of the facts acknowledged is the cruelty of the death 1080 inflicts- 6 out of 8 on the ‘humane scale’, 1 being the most humane

            • solkta 6.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes that’s right, Forest and Bird are far more concerned about being right than saving birds and forests.

            • RedLogix 6.1.1.1.1.2

              OK and your effective alternative to 1080 is?

              • Stunned Mullet

                No doubt very little apart from spreading false information and dropping road kill on the steps of parliament.

                The 1080 debate has all the attraction of other internet discussions on the likes of flouridation of water supplies and immunisation which tend to lead nowhere apart from monumentally long threads.

                • RedLogix

                  Exactly; every step forward that people make, while undeniable progress in itself (in this case the protection of native bird species and others) also uncovers a new problem (in this case 1080 is likely not a very nice or humane method).

                  If gsays wants to argue for more funding into better pest control methods then I’d 100% support that, but as you say, hand-wringing on the internet is probably not very helpful.

              • gsays

                amongst other things: turning the threat into a resource.
                a handsome bounty on opossums, mustelids, rats, cats. (cats i get may be dodgy..)
                using mentors to train youngsters with traps, dogs, bait stations, firearms.
                with a concerted effort going on in the bush these methods become more cost effective.
                pet food, pelts, fur, this is a wonderful resource going to waste.

                my nephew owned outright a newish ute from opposum fur and pelts before he was 20.

                any chance you would care to answer the questions i raised?
                not in solkta’s ‘weasly’ way.

                • RedLogix

                  That’s more or less what we did before we had 1080. Ground hunting is only useful in some limited contexts, or as a complement to other methods. From my participation on other forums (primarily the tramping and hunting communities who have a great deal of collective knowledge) this is a complex topic with many interesting facets.

                  Almost everyone agrees that 1080 is not ideal; but at present we don’t yet have a good alternative to the whole problem of pest control. The big picture path forward is likely to involve a spectrum of techniques. But bear in mind, nothing is perfect in this world, they will all likely involve some compromise.

                • Bewildered

                  Put a handsome bounty on rats possums etc then get ready for illegal opossum and rat farming to take off, ie the theory of unintended consequences, people will act in their self interest not in the interest of the original intent Vietnam tried it with rats and that’s exactly what happened

                • mauī

                  Agree with that, possibly the worst thing I find about 1080 is the waste of a natural resource. That applies to industrialization in general though I guess…

              • gsays

                hi vv, i meant here on TS.

                i am aware of the threats issue raised this am on rnz.
                not something i condone.

                also womens rights advanced because of those who choose to interrupt a horse race.

                plowshare folk shouldn’t have deflated the dome waihopai.

                i did find interesting the doc spokesperson couched the opposition to 1080 as fake news, then used exaggeration and hyperbole to make her point.
                perhaps she should stick to giggling through her segment with jessie in the afternoons.

                any chance you could answer the questions i raised?

                • veutoviper

                  No, I cannot answer your questions and I doubt anyone can. Nort have I come out on one side or the other except that threats, (possibly) false claims etc help no-one or the discussion and attempts to find a 80/20 solution.

                  This whole issue is far from a black and white one with straight objective, rational answers or definitive solutions. It is highly emotive and subjective on either side of the equation.

                  Redlogix puts it well at https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-09-2018/#comment-1525772

              • weston

                i listened to most of that stuff u linked to vv an came away thinking RNZ just a propaganda tool effectively for doc and forest and bird etc because in all those interviews they never once interviewed a single person holding an alternative viewpoint .RNZ is a state broadcaster and does not provide balanced coverage imo .

            • mauī 6.1.1.1.1.4

              I think 1080 was regarded as ‘moderately’ inhumane in the Parliamentary Commissioners report. On the same level as live leg trapping possums for possum fur I think. I doubt that leg trapping will ever be banned. Interesting the overall silence on that issue by the outdoors community…

              • gsays

                forest and bird say 6 out of 8 in a humane scale in terms of suffering.
                what would they have to do to make it crueler?

                that is from stunned mullet’s link above.

                • mauī

                  Indeed you could call it a cruel practice. But there are other crueler, widely used pest control poisons that rate a 7 or even close to 8 out of 8 that are never talked about. Why do you think that is? Could it be that farmers also use them, or that there aren’t as many affected people downstream of them so to speak.

                  edit: Possum trapping is on a similar level of humaneness, probably hunting in general would come close. If we’re going to be fair, we should outlaw all of them at once right?

                  • gsays

                    Hang on Maui, you can not compare a respiratory death were the organism is dying at a cellular level, with being in a cage for 24 or so hours.
                    Maybe gin trap is getting close but they are illegal.

                    What are the cruel methods you elude to?

                    • bwaghorn

                      No one uses gun traps now . Usually they will have tims leg hold . Light weight easy to set moderately kinder than a gin . Put still smashes the od leg . Of course the standard method for dispatching a leg trapped possum is a hammer which is effective if not a tad brutal .

                    • mauī

                      I’m referring to leg-hold traps, thanks bwaghorn above. They are basically a gin trap using flat steel on the jaws instead of jagged teeth. Widely used by individuals. Companies or contractors are probably using poisons that are more cruel than 1080, I am fairly certain on that. The exception being cyanide which is very quick, but I don’t know how widely it is used now, health and safety and all that.

                      You can make a comparison in terms of welfare, the experts seem to be able to. Check out the pdf, https://www.mpi.govt.nz/dmsdocument/4009-how-humane-are-our-pest-control-tools
                      Pg, 131, Table 3.4, gives you some idea of humaneness of leg trapping.
                      On pg 143 they sum up by saying:

                      “Based on the impacts on possums from Victor No. 1 padded and unpadded leg-hold traps and the duration of exposure to these impacts, the overall welfare score assigned was 5E based on a combination of moderate domain impacts over a duration of hours (Part A) and extreme negative welfare impacts over a duration of seconds (Part B).

                      I think 1080 was given a similar score of 5E when it was compared across pest control methods, but I am only going from memory on that sorry.

                  • bwaghorn

                    The problem with cyanide is it’s short life span in the open although the peanut incased version lasts awhile. It also doesn’t on kill very often iunlike 1080 which cleans up anything that eats poisoned carcasses I believe. Certainly a good way to get rid of stray dogs .
                    Which is why most pig hunters hate the stuff .

                • weston

                  did you see the pics on fb recently gsays ? some reserve called mapara i think near te kawhiti {prob spelled that wrong }killed a half doz or so cows an calves usual story helicopter dropped baits well outside targeted area cows died horribly bleeding from their eyes etc .you prob wont see it on tv or here about on RNZ though .

                  • McFlock

                    Didn’t FB pics of a bunch of “1080-killed” deer turn out to be deer shot overseas or something?

                    Don’t believe anything on FB. Google it if you’re interested, but never take an FB post at face value.

                  • gsays

                    Don’t do FB, Weston.

                    Just remember if it doesn’t suit the narrative, it’s probably fake../sarc.
                    It is a horrible death, that is essence of my opposition.

              • mauī

                Sorry, just to clear up a couple of things the 1080 report says 1080 is ‘moderately inhumane’.

                The National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC) did a report on the humaneness of pest control methods, which is where I got the comparison to leg trapping I think. Can’t find that report now…

            • Ed 6.1.1.1.1.5

              TINA
              The argument made by neoliberals about everything since 1979.

              • solkta

                What the fuck has 1080 got to do with neo-liberalism?

                • Ed

                  You work it out.

                  • solkta

                    All i can work out is that you like to use your special words whenever you think you have a chance.

                  • joe90

                    You work it out.

                    Because the first trials in New Zealand were carried out in 1954, and by 1957 sodium fluoroacetate was in use?

                    /

                  • marty mars

                    whoops – seems like you know LESS than nothing about this subject too ed.

                    • Ed

                      Stalking me the way you do is creepy.
                      Please desist.
                      I know you are trying to close down free speech and turn Open Mike into Closed Mike.
                      However, I shall not be silenced by your bully boy tactics.

                    • marty mars

                      chillax buddy – you seem a bit stressed

                    • solkta

                      Ed, all you have been asked is to explain something that you have said. That is not closing down free speech. The other side of the free speech coin is that others get to question what we have said. It seems to me that it is you who are working against free speech and are here just to be a troll.

                • gsays

                  It makes the justification for using 1080 easier to do by looking at it from a purely fiscal lens, bang for buck etc.

                  Since the neo liberal reforms I have heard over and over there is no alternative in respect to the political ideology.

      • Gabby 6.1.2

        Possum numbers in decline are they stunted munter?

    • gsays 6.2

      anyhow, as it is a beautiful day here in the manawatu, i am going for a ride on my now classic motorbike (bmw k75).

      hopefully someone can inform us when 1080 will stop by the time i get back…

      • Wayne 6.2.1

        Well the K75 is now an older bike now (20 years plus). Yes it is beautifully made, but is it a classic?
        Maybe yes. An amazingly well designed engine, along with the larger K100.

      • Macro 6.2.2

        Mine is a 1957 BMW R50 – which I have just finished restoring. It was originally sold in Pretoria, ridden up through Africa, around the continent, down through the middle east (as you could do in those days), though india, shipped to Perth and across the nullabor then to NZ where I bought it in 1969.

    • gsays 6.3

      So far, stunned mullet, solkta, Maui, VV, red logix, have engaged but none have gone near the questions raised in meaningful (non weasly) way.

  6. RedLogix 8

    This video is a drama, but it’s exceedingly close to real. Just two days ago I had a long conversation with a Professor of AI systems (a real one). These things frighten him; his students often bring up the topic. They present a real and terrible danger, made worse because they are so cheap and easy to make, it will be difficult to enforce any rules.

    At the moment their range of autonomous operation is limited by battery technology; but there is massive research world-wide that will almost certainly remove that constraint within a decade, perhaps just a few years:

    • SaveNZ 8.1

      scary stuff.

    • McFlock 8.2

      We-ell maybe.
      But flying takes a lot of energy, so do avionics and facial recognition and the overall AI. And then the rules you give the AI determine its behaviour, so we’d be talking about the devil being in each developer’s proprietary AI ruleset.

      Reminds me of the hand grenades from Space: Above and Beyond though.

      I did giggle a bit at the “recognition” marking the presenter as “primary target”: that right there is a design flaw 🙂

      • RedLogix 8.2.1

        The lighter the object the less energy that’s required.

        • McFlock 8.2.1.1

          ISTR an efficiency compromise as size decreases.

          Might be able to run a stirling engine off the heat from the cpu, though.

          But I think the maing obstacle is getting a decent AI trained up. Even facial recognition is a problem: the US like to bomb people of colour. Guess what skin tones make many facial recognition systems less reliable…

    • Dukeofurl 8.3

      “range of autonomous operation is limited by battery technology; but there is massive research world-wide that will almost certainly remove that constraint within a decade, perhaps just a few years:”

      Clearly you know nothing about battery ‘chemistry’ – just saying technology doesnt mean physical constraints inside chemical reactions go away.

      • RedLogix 8.3.1

        I’m definitely not a battery chemist, but I’ve had reason to research the topic recently. Besides my Professor mentioned above was the source of my comment on that point.

        If you care to google around on the topic, you’ll quickly find there’s an astonishing amount of research being thrown at this.

        • Dukeofurl 8.3.1.1

          yes the amount of power stored in batterys is likely to increase. 20% would be a huge jump. nothing like your claim of ‘remove that constraint’

    • Editractor 8.4

      We should use them to kill all the pests.

    • joe90 8.5

      More than 100 Perdix micro-drones dropped from a pair of F-18s. More anti-radar chaff than anything else, but not for long.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdix_(drone)

  7. Carolyn_Nth 9

    This Stuff documentary features Rochelle Rees – she’s Lynn’s neice is she not?

    The investigative doco is about undercover surveillance. I have only read the print version so far, but it begins:

    Maybe she’s talking about the tracking device put on her friend’s car. Maybe it’s how her boyfriend turned out to be a paid police informant. Maybe that time a private investigator turned up at the community board meeting she was attending.

    Or maybe it’s any of the many other times Rochelle Rees has been followed, photographed or spied upon over the past 15 years.

    Whatever it is, she’s very laid back when asked how much she ever thinks about the fact she might be under surveillance: “With everything that’s happened,” she says, nonchalantly, “it’s very difficult not to think about that. I try not to let it affect the way I behave or what I do but it’s always in the back of my mind.”

    If you bumped into Rochelle Rees, you would never pick her as a target for the attention of police and private investigators. She works in IT, speaks calmly and quietly, and drinks soy lattes.

  8. cleangreen 10

    https://www.lombardiletter.com/warren-buffett-indicator-signals-upcoming-stock-market-crash/20559/

    Buffet should know when we have another GFC?
    Winston warned this in last years announcement he would have NZ First go with labour remember?

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/happened-jacinda-ardern-says-honour-and-privilege-form-next-government-winston-peters-goes-left

    “Warren Buffett Indicator Predicts Stock Market Crash in 2018
    On October 31, Halloween, children and adults alike enjoy playing with the frightful themes of death surrounding the feast’s mixture of Christian All Saints’ Day and Celtic pagan origins. But, in 2017, if you are one of millions of people who have investments, here’s something all too real and scary to rob you of your sleep. This Warren Buffett Indicator predicts a stock market crash in 2018.

    You might be wondering if we’ve endured one too many ghost apparitions. To suggest that no less than Warren Buffett, whose net worth is north of $80.0 billion, expects the market to reverse its bullish course seems not just scary, it seems silly. But Warren Buffett’s predictions for 2018 call for at least a market correction—if not an outright crash”

  9. pete 11

    The Herald?: Hosking: A commentator defined by sheer hopelessness.

  10. Chris T 12

    This could get interesting

    Trump is testing his emergency text system that lets the Prez’ send a text to every mobile in America Thursday

    Wonder how long before it stops being just for emergencies?

    And there is no way to opt out

    Obama might end up regretting signing off this one off

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/09/trump-to-test-system-that-lets-him-send-messages-to-every-us-cellphone.html

  11. Adrian 13

    Just out of interest regarding trapping and hunting of introduced predators in remote areas, what would the human death and injury toll need to be before the the whole thing became too much of a stupid unsustainable idea ?.
    I haven’t been able to find any exact data but I do vaguely remember that in the deer culling era, and that’s pre-helicopter, that such events were quite common.

    • Graeme 13.1

      There’s also that ground methods are just too damn hard. The resources required, and the effort required to get people into, and then supporting them, even the reasonably accessible fringes is mind boggling. You’ve then got to find thousands of people who are going to do it for years, and really lifetimes, to make an impact.

      In the post-war culler phase there was a ready supply of young men who had the skills and were more than happy to be in the bush for months on end. But accidents happened, and this has been a feature of the occupation even up to modern times. They are a lot easier to find with the modern beacons, that’s if they are able to be used, but finding a missing culler is a real needle in haystack exercise without one.

      • chris73 13.1.1

        All ideas are expensive but how do you think it would go if a bounty was put on possums but only for a limited time (I don’t know a season or two maybe) and then after that intensive 1080 drops were done, along with other methods to really take the numbers down

        Would this take the population down enough that a newly formed possum board could then keep the possums under control? (I don’t think its feasible to try to wipe out every possum)

        • Graeme 13.1.1.1

          Ground control would only take the top off an already high population, and then make animals ground shy so poison would be less effective. Then over big, remote areas the resources required just get huge. Have you ever worked somewhere where it takes a couple of days walk just to get to the job? Even with helicopters it’s a massive logistical exercise and your productivity is nothing compared to when you can drive to the job.

          • chris73 13.1.1.1.1

            So what do you think would be a better way to control possums, I personally don’t like the use of 1080 but I don’t know if theres a better way

            At least a way that won’t cost mega bucks

            • Graeme 13.1.1.1.1.1

              That’s why 1080 is the tool of choice, it’s the best one available at present. There’s really no such thing as humane killing, it’s still killing a sentient being that doesn’t really want to die, whether it’s a trap and probably having to deal with a half dead mangled animal, cyanide, which isn’t that pleasant by the way, or 1080, none of them are that swift or painless for animal or hunter.

              And with any bio-control we’ve got to keep it confined within New Zealand in case it wreaks havoc somewhere else. The trouble with Trichosurus vulpecula is that while a pest of biblical proportions on this side of the Tasman, on the other side it’s treasured native wildlife. Short of introducing a natural predator, like the Australian Powerful Owl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerful_owl there may not be a lot that can be done, but having a beast like that in circulation could have unintended consequences for other species and agriculture.

    • Gabby 13.2

      Compared with the normal annual hunting death/injury toll?

    • The death toll would be higher than the road toll if hoards of fortune seekers went trapping and hunting pests into the remote imo. And that would mainly be around the car parks before they even got into the hills.

      • Adrian 13.3.1

        Exactly what I thought. Its my opinion garnered from living in a rural S I area that most opposition comes from the hunting fraternity because they do not want their present quarry numbers diminished in any way and value self interest above preservation of native species.

        • Graeme 13.3.1.1

          That’s my take on the anti 1080 lobby as well Adrian, well the hunting based side of it. And it’s often as an excuse for their inability to stalk and shoot an animal.

          It’s not like deer numbers are low at present, there’s a thriving population very close to, and all around Queenstown. I’m currently deer fencing a 150 ha block that has an awesome view over the Whakatipu, there won’t be a great difference in annual stocking rate once it’s stocked with breading hinds for fawning, and the locals are fenced in or out.

      • bwaghorn 13.3.2

        Na they can’t get kiwis to pick fruit , prune and plant pines etc there no way that hoards if in skilled people who don’t love the Bush are going to trudge off and die out their. Add to that no ph or internet and a big dose of your on company only and not many will be up to it .

        • marty mars 13.3.2.1

          yeah well you and I know that but the people saying go and trap them and build an industry catching rats lol don’t get it. Maybe a weeks pig hunting might teach them the actual ways of the bush not the TV way.

        • SaveNZ 13.3.2.2

          I think they can’t get Kiwis to pick fruit, because it used to be good money but now it costs so much to do it (travel there, accomodation, benefit stand down, lack of interest in employing Kiwis if they can just get a people trafficker in to supply a whole troop of migrants at great prices who co incidentally are probably already having to pay to get the job to the people trafficker) and the picking rates are still from 20 years ago… at least in the old days the slaves were not expected to pay the slavers, unlike modern times…

  12. Dennis Frank 14

    “Last week, polling firm Ipsos said “the current Labour-led government is perceived to be doing a better job at present than the National Government was” a year ago, by a score of 5.4 out of 10 to National’s 4.9.” https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/09/simon-bridges-wouldn-t-let-winston-peters-have-presidential-veto.html

    “Simon Bridges says if National formed a coalition with New Zealand First, he wouldn’t let Winston Peters have a “presidential veto on everything”.” Bridges fails to explain how he’d confine Winston to a position of inferiority and the media hasn’t yet thought of asking him the obvious question. As far as I’m aware, Winston hasn’t yet been bound into a coalition on subservient terms..

    • Dennis Frank 14.1

      Actually, thinking about it, I was wrong: when he accepted the deputy position he locked himself in. I ought to have framed it as parity between coalition parties on legislative decisions.

    • SaveNZ 14.2

      Nobody is missing the Natz, (partly because the Labour coalition on the surface is pretty similar to the Natz unless you realised that the Natz were going to go a lot further if they got in again)… I’ve been disappointed by a few things by the new government, TPPA signing, Kiwibuild having little state house rentals and selling off public land, watered down foreign buyers ban, gave away the water rights, but since Natz would have done all that anyway… you are still better off with the new government.. and they have done some good things in education – got rid of national standards for a start.

      In short I would say more people than not, prefer the new government and whatever hysterical rant is going on daily in the MSM about Jacinda/ Labour is meaningless.

      • Dennis Frank 14.2.1

        Yes, I’m looking forward to the next full poll results. I just scanned the fine print that Sacha linked us to & here’s the best bit from the coalition economic policy:

        “We cannot continue to rely on an economy built on population growth, an overheated housing market and the export of raw commodities.” That differentiates the coalition sufficiently from the last govt but I wish they’d agree to adopt a financial transactions tax. Taxing capital flows is better than taxing labour.

        • SaveNZ 14.2.1.1

          Yep, the fairer way of taxing with unprecedented global travel and movement is defiantly a financial transaction tax. This is especially true in NZ when so many people have residency and citizenship but don’t live here all the time, but can call on any of the benefits that people who do live here have to provide through taxes such as free health, education, social services and super in most cases…

          The government also need to make permanent residency and citizenship a lot longer 10 – 15 years or so, before you can vote and influence politics here and expect the Kiwi tax payer to pick up the tab for so many people’s free health, education, social services and super…

      • Gabby 14.2.2

        Thy’ll have done something about foreign trusts though, surely.

    • Gabby 14.3

      Slick’s right of course franky, because he wouldn’t be the leader.

  13. Sacha 15

    ‘When anti-1080 activism grew noisy, and got ugly’ by Hayden Donnell: https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/17-09-2018/when-anti-1080-activism-grew-noisy-and-got-ugly/

    What caused the sudden escalation? Part of the answer can perhaps be traced back to October last year, when anti-1080 leaders held a think-tank near Nelson. There the lawyer Sue Grey gave a presentation on how to mainstream the movement.

    Grey has been a leading spokesperson in the medicinal cannabis movement, which has gained political traction and overwhelming public support in recent months, and she drew on her experience with that cause to outline a new anti-1080 strategy.

    Activists couldn’t rely on getting mainstream media coverage, she said. She proposed taking a different tack – co-opting stories about issues completely unrelated to 1080 to spread the anti-1080 message.

    • McFlock 15.1

      Thing is, they over-egged it.

      People actually needing medical marijuana are genuine, as well as being more presentable than the usual deranged hippies advocating for dope.

      Roadkill protected species just make the 1080 crowd a mockery.

  14. McFlock 16

    Jenny Shipley in court.

    Not for killing poor people by her policies – reckless trading as a director.

    You can leave as many poor people as you want to die, but don’t fuck with the owners of capital.

    • Poission 16.1

      Not for killing poor people by her policies – reckless trading as a director.

      There’s a difference ?

    • SaveNZ 16.2

      Great comment McFlock.

      “You can leave as many poor people as you want to die, but don’t fuck with the owners of capital.”

    • KJT 16.3

      Trading while insolvent is more of a technical breach of a directors responsibilities.

      While condemning hundreds of thousands of children to poverty, blights the lives of all of them for decades.

      Reminds me of the US gangsters who got jailed for tax violations, not killing people.

  15. Poission 17

    NZ electricity system seems to show its fragility due to snow in SI.

    NI thermals firing up and HVDC sending south.

    Renewable gone down to 65%

    https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data

  16. joe90 18

    Amoral power hungry pricks have begun a concerted effort to discredit this woman.

    Speaking publicly for the first time, Ford said that one summer in the early 1980s, Kavanaugh and a friend — both “stumbling drunk,” Ford alleges — corralled her into a bedroom during a gathering of teenagers at a house in Montgomery County.

    While his friend watched, she said, Kavanaugh pinned her to a bed on her back and groped her over her clothes, grinding his body against hers and clumsily attempting to pull off her one-piece bathing suit and the clothing she wore over it. When she tried to scream, she said, he put his hand over her mouth.

    “I thought he might inadvertently kill me,” said Ford, now a 51-year-old research psychologist in northern California. “He was trying to attack me and remove my clothing.”

    Ford said she was able to escape when Kavanaugh’s friend and classmate at Georgetown Preparatory School, Mark Judge, jumped on top of them, sending all three tumbling. She said she ran from the room, briefly locked herself in a bathroom and then fled the house

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/california-professor-writer-of-confidential-brett-kavanaugh-letter-speaks-out-about-her-allegation-of-sexual-assault/2018/09/16/46982194-b846-11e8-94eb-3bd52dfe917b_story.html?utm_term=.29eb517322b5

  17. OnceWasTim 19

    DId anyone else here in the media of calls to privatise Aurora Energy because it is a liability?
    I think I heard it on RNZ, although as I write, I cannot find any reference to it.

    Surely the problem is not that it is in public hands, but rather that it has shit management

  18. SaveNZ 20

    NZ media standards and the crims that seems to be attracted to NZ..

    “In May 1995, on Queensland’s Gold Coast, the Southport District Court sentenced him to a four-year prison term for misappropriation of property, false pretences and attempted
    false pretences, forgery, uttering a forgery, theft, and what is described as making a
    “wilful false promise”.

    He was then sentenced to cumulative terms of imprisonment in Australia during October 1995 and May 1996 for incurring a debt by false pretences, misappropriation of property and false pretences offences.

    Upon his release from prison Goodburn moved to New Zealand.

    He held business links to Australasian media and radio companies and was a group general manager at a New Zealand-based media enterprise.

    Married with a son, Goodburn lived in a luxury apartment in Parnell but was declared bankrupt in 2012.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12126694

  19. ianmac 21

    How sad to see Jenny Shipley having to front up in Court?

    • KJT 21.1

      Another white collar criminal, caught.
      Grounds for celebration in my book.

      • SaveNZ 21.1.1

        Not caught yet, but hopefully there is still independent justice in NZ… here’s hoping.

        • McFlock 21.1.1.1

          Even if found guilty, her “public service” and “previous good character” will be taken into account. Makes you spit, eh.

          • ianmac 21.1.1.1.1

            Remember the “good Character” of the Directors who bailed out/resigned just a couple of days before they finally collapsed. Left the team high and dry. Run and hide Jenny.

  20. SaveNZ 22

    As if we don’t have enough crims here.

    Former Prime Minister Dame Jenny Shipley accused of reckless trading as Mainzeal director

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12126609

    (You would have thought it would be prudent of the other companies to stand her down until the court proceedings were over and after it emerged Mainzeal owed $115 million to unsecured creditors… during a construction boom… but nope still troughing on Genesis Energy, China Construction Bank (NZ), on the board of Oravida and the International Finance Forum in Beijing.

    P.S. Quality was so low from Mainzeal that they on a commercial job of a mate I knew, they got the untantalised timber mixed up with the tantalised timber and put the untanalised timber on the exterior…. so it wasn’t just the money side that was a huge screw up from them. They say it all comes from the top.

    • AB 22.1

      Ah – but Dame Jenny is in such demand due to her ‘business acumen’ (possibly the most repellent cliché of our times)

      • KJT 22.1.1

        Repeat after me. National MP’s getting jobs after Parliament, in the corporations they looked after while in Parliament. IS NOT CORRUPTION!!!

      • SaveNZ 22.1.2

        Yep, maybe getting away with reckless trading, we will see… what a joke being on the international finance forum and another construction company, they must be going to the bottom of the pile.. maybe reckless trading doesn’t matter in China if you are “well connected”.

    • Stunned Mullet 22.2

      They went under while working on major project for a school I was involved with – if found culpable she should have the book thrown at her.

      • Dukeofurl 22.2.1

        It’s a civil case. Essentially it’s against the directors insurance company.
        If the insurance company loses they will drag it through the courts.
        At best we will find how useless she was at her duties like the rest of them

        • Muttonbird 22.2.1.1

          It’s those shoulder-padded power suits in upholstery fabric. She’s still wearing them. The 80s called and want their horrible fashion disasters back.

  21. SaveNZ 23

    With any luck it will put off other politicians and boards putting on political directors that don’t know what they are doing, or anything about the industry they are on the board of.

    We need to have a 5 year stand down of ex politicians being allowed to go on to cushy jobs on boards in the private sector post being a PM or MP. It’s too much a conflict of interest.

    John Key, Jonathan Coleman, etc etc

    • KJT 23.1

      “Our politicians don’t take bribes”.

      Before, they leave Parliament.

      • corodale 23.1.1

        Very insightful. I wander if JA has had time to map out her future at the UN? Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme? If she can hold NZ to another 6.66 years or more of austerity, she should qualify for the job.

    • Stunned Mullet 23.2

      Michael Cullen, Steve Maharey……..it is endemic in NZ politics.

  22. Tricledrown 24

    Gerry Brownlee thought Jenny Shipley was worth double the normal govt consultants fee when he appointed her to Cera.
    Look at how that turned out.
    Their should be an enquiry into her appointment as well.
    $75 million the mainzeal Directors are being sued for.
    Personal responsibility.

  23. eco maori 26

    Kia ora The Am Show with the tax we have seen shonky walk away making a cool $1 million per year or more in capital gains on the house he sold he could afford to pay more tax .
    Yes It’s cool that most kiwis want there money invested in ethical industrys no carbon no human rights issues or animal abuse or manufacturing of ARMS if everyone on Papatuanuku made the call thing’s would change for the better for all of us.
    Eco Maori says boycott the ANZ bank till shonky resins from the board.
    The survey they did in Aucland will let everyone know exactly how many people there are under the bridge and take the data to the to Parliament and get all MP to support some good policy’s that will get %75 support and they won’t be easly scrapped if things change. Do you see the direct link heaps of home less tangata netx minute the old pm and his m8 just cashed in there capital gains that’s cause and effect right there and they still think there——–don’t stink.
    I agree speed cameras are a tool to prevent a accident it there are no sign’s showing were they are and one get’s a ticket its not done its job of preventing accident IE because they were still speeding and could have crashed conclusion UN MARKED speed cameras are just revenue gatherers .
    I say our armed forces should be training people in war torn parts of the Papatuanuku to rebuild there houses water rebuild there lives .
    Eco know what the birds are like in Karori Wellington they are awesome and it would be great to have birds like that in many places in Aotearoa.
    Ka kite ano

  24. eco moari 27

    These neo liberal capitalist pro carbon muppets are getting quite sly in there pro carbon burning big business backing promotion .
    They start the story off as if they care about the environment and the people well-being
    than at the end they start calling for big central gas projects for our poor thirdworld countrys cousins .
    They have the opportunity to jump right over the top of our carbon based society in to a sustainable energy model from the start cut out big business who only want to fleece the people. In this modle the people will have the power and not big business .
    link below ka kite ano.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/to-end-poverty-increase-access-to-energy/

  25. eco moari 28

    Aotearoa does not have to follow the rest of the Papatuanuku into a society were people have more wealthy than they could possabley spend in a life time and mean while people are dieing of starvation around the Papatunuku .
    There is enough food and wealth to keep everyone healthy & happy it just has to be shared equal link below the story is 9 months old Ka kite ano.

    https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/14/worlds-richest-wealth-credit-suisse

  26. eco moari 29

    The sandflys are not looking for the truth they are looking to try and prove there lying
    contracted informant’s who will spit out what they are payed to spit out .
    How else can one explane there behavior it is total bullshit
    The good thing is everyone with a brain can see this ana to kai P.S they can fool a few people but not all
    Ka kite ano

  27. eco maori 30

    Kia ora Newshub the space flights on Elon Muss rocket company by a Chinese man show that we are advancing at a incredible rate .
    Wow that’s a lot of lambs lost they are lucky that Farmers are getting the best prices for lamb & sheep meat for at least 20 years.
    There you go with Fiji Bula being trade marked by a American preying on other culturers treasures.
    Indigenous cultures. treasures should be banned from being trade marked.
    There you go shoddy insurance sales we had some shoddy insurance sales people here in the nineties selling crap life saving deals I seen people pay thousands and only getting %20 back.
    Birds are very intelligent Kea are tool makers and users the most intelligent birds it will be cool when there are more native birds flying around our neighborhood like in Karori Wellington Ka kite ano. .

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