Open mike 17/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:45 am, July 17th, 2014 - 289 comments
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289 comments on “Open mike 17/07/2014”

  1. Jenny 1

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10275359/National-holds-on-to-huge-lead

    What’s wrong with Labour it's like they don't want to win.

    80% of the population are opposed to deep sea oil drilling. With this one policy the united opposition could crush the government.

    Government ministers will argue that it will cost jobs and it will hurt the economy.

    The opposition can counter with the far greater threat of climate change.

    As Gareth Hughes has said, "To really fight deep sea oil we need to fight it on climate change grounds".

    Climate change is the government's worst performing portfollio, it is where they are weakest it iis where they are vulnerable, it is where they could take the biggest hits.

    Yes, save the Maui Dolphin but save the Humans too.

    No deep sea oil drilling, no new coal mines, let's really make climate change an election issue and get rid of this government of climate change Quislings and sellouts.

    • Gosman 1.1

      The Greens I presume are opposed to deep sea drilling. Can you explain why people are not uniting behind them?

      • Morrissey 1.1.1

        Ah, Gosman. Good to see you. Have you started the reading that I advised you to do recently?

      • Jenny 1.1.2

        The Greens I presume are opposed to deep sea drilling. Can you explain why people are not uniting behind them?

        Gosman

        I will have a go.

        I see the Greens as being in the same position vis-a-vis Labour as in another time were the Values Party. (except that nowadays the Greens have the benefit of MMP)

        First of all Gosman, people are uniting around the Greens. But obviously not in the numbers that still rally around Labour, which is a more established (establishment) party. But despite having this established presence Labour are going down in the polls. Why, because they are not taking the leadership role their numbers and status gives them. Handing leadership to the Right and to a large extent on the Left that leadership role has passed largely to the Greens

        The question for Left activists is; Should we speed Labour’s slow collapse or pressure them to retake the leading role?

        (To put it more bluntly should we let the Right win this election and even the next, until ‘The Left [in whatever form] get their act together)

        It is the same dilemma that faced Rod Donald when he was in Values and was campaigning against nuclear ship visits. Donald chose to leave Values and join Labour. Where he (and others) championed the nuclear free cause amongst the Labour ranks, starting with the LECs.

        Now I am not for a second suggesting that Green or Left activists do that today, Thanks to the other good work of Rod Donald around MMP they don’t have to. But neither should they forget Labour.

        Personally, in my opinion the planet can’t wait the 10 or twenty years until the Green Party are the government.

        Time is running out.

        Labour need to be challenged to front up.

        • Tracey 1.1.2.1

          Also, the nats have been running the lie, ad nauseum, that drilling and mining is the economic panacea. It has been reported ad nauseum.

    • @ jenny..

      “..80% of the population are opposed to deep sea oil drilling. With this one policy the united opposition could crush the government…”

      ..+ 1..

      • The Lone Haranguer 1.2.1

        Lets be honest here, the 80% are not single issue voters.

        Sure they may not like the idea of deep sea oil drilling but they dont see it as really affecting them and their own financial position.Generally, most people will vote for stuff that makes their wallet fatter.

        You need look no further than when Labour bought an election with the interest free student loans – hoovering up the middle ground.

        As Clinton famously said “its the economy stupid”

        • phillip ure 1.2.1.1

          in general i agree..

          ..but jenny is indirectly touching on what i want to happen..

          ..for the greens and internet/mana to work together to bring labour onside…

          ..to make labour put the capital l in ‘labour’…

        • Jenny 1.2.1.2

          As Clinton famously said “its the economy stupid”

          As the Son of God famously said, “Man does not live by bread alone….”

          Hmmm? Clinton, Jesus. Clinton, Jesus. Don’t make me choose.

    • Tom Jackson 1.3

      What’s wrong with Labour it’s like they don’t want to win.

      I’m sure they do. The problem is that most New Zealanders are dumb and venal, and prepared to allow almost any official corruption as long as their mortgage doesn’t go up. It’s just the way things are now: all the Anglo countries appear to be fine with terrible governments for some reason.

      It’s time to write this election off. Labour would be better suited trying to keep the 30% of voters it can probably count on in September. National could be exposed as running a pedophile ring and they would still get in.

      Climate change is a minority electoral issue. Most people either don’t believe in it or have other priorities. You think Key is bad, at least he isn’t gagging environmental scientists like Harper.

      • Liam Hehir 1.3.1

        It begins…

        “Would it not be easier. In that case for the government. To dissolve the people. And elect another?”

        • Tom Jackson 1.3.1.1

          That may well have to happen if the climate problem is to be solved in time. Democracy seems to be doing as poor a job as it did preventing WW2.

          • Jagg 1.3.1.1.1

            Time to get rid of Democacy then.

            It’s an outrage that voters are so biased!

        • McFlock 1.3.1.2

          Oh fuck off.

          It would be easier if we didn’t have a media that puts Sov1et-era Pravda to shame and treats an MMP election like a two-horse race. And regional-rag political columnists who weren’t fucking morons.

          • Jagg 1.3.1.2.1

            Hmmm.. is this deemed acceptable language around here now? Or is it only if you have viewpoint that is “agreeable” with that of the echo chamber?

            Ref: Policy
            “What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others.”

            • McFlock 1.3.1.2.1.1

              riiiight, because building a straw man out of Brecht is much more legitimate than using a rude word [blushes, “why fiddle-dee-dee”] /sarc

            • Tracey 1.3.1.2.1.2

              Search “srylands” to see such behaviour is accepted here by those from the right as well.

      • Jagg 1.3.2

        “The problem is that most New Zealanders are dumb and venal”

        Yup, they’re so stupid that they’ll be fooled into voting for this reptilian child-eating kitten-killing Prime Minister for a third time.

        If only they were rational they’d vote for a 5-headed coalition wrought by internal bickering. Why won’t people just vote for the unfunded bribes that are offered to them? I don’t get it either.

        I mean, seriously, the parties of the left obviously write their policy and press releases in full knowledge that New Zealanders are stupid – the 10 second sound-bites cater to those with short attention spans and the lack of detail means that they don’t confuse anyone (except when they contradict each other within 24 hours, but who’s smart enough to notice?).
        The left has been telling voters they’ve been stupid for 6 straight years, why don’t they get the message and drop National dammit!!!

        • Tom Jackson 1.3.2.1

          People voting against their own interests is not new.

          • Jagg 1.3.2.1.1

            I would say that voting against your own personal interests is a great thing.

            If you vote in the interests of the collective instead of purely for short-term personal gain then that is admirable. It’s how I’ve always approached voting – what’s good for the country will be better for me longer term.

            It’s why I voted against interest-free student loans when I was a student and why I’m still against working for families even when I’ve started my own family recently. I simply don’t think it’s right that other people should have to subsidise my life choices in much the same way as I shouldn’t have to subsidise theirs.

            It really turns me off when the left wheels out policy that is shamelessly targeting voters’ selfish short-term interests (with other voters’ money I might add) ahead of what’s best for the country longer term.

            • Tracey 1.3.2.1.1.1

              ROFL

            • McFlock 1.3.2.1.1.2

              if markets are supposed to work fine when everyone acts in their own self interest, why why don’t you think that voters should do the same?

        • framu 1.3.2.2

          “Why won’t people just vote for the unfunded bribes that are offered to them?”

          nationals tax cuts ring a bell?

          maybe get a more logical argument

      • infused 1.3.3

        Ah, blame the voter.

        People are switched on, hence the low poll. Can see Mr C (and Labour) for what he is (isn’t).

      • greywarbler 1.3.4

        @TomJackson
        ” You think Key is bad, at least he isn’t gagging environmental scientists like Harper.”

        Wait till after the election – if nats win…………..

    • Puckish Rogue 1.4

      “80% of the population are opposed to deep sea oil drilling. With this one policy the united opposition could crush the government.”

      80% may well be opposed but its an opposition similar to a facebook like in that yes they’re opposed but well they get of their chuffs to do anything? Hell no.

      So yes 80% may be opposed but most still know we need to be doing it

      • Paul 1.4.1

        Speak for yourself, not other people.

      • Jenny 1.4.2

        “80% may well be opposed but its an opposition similar to a facebook like in that yes they’re opposed but well they get of their chuffs to do anything? Hell no.”

        Puckish Rogue

        Not when the biggest Left Party in the country says its OK!

        It’s all about leadership, when Labour abandons their leadership role they go down in the polls.

        When Labour took the leading role in the anti nuclear movement they swept the polls.

        Climate change is the anti nuclear movement of our age.

        • Tom Jackson 1.4.2.1

          When Labour took the leading role in the anti nuclear movement they swept the polls.

          Only because they were also doing the bidding of the right economically.

          • karol 1.4.2.1.1

            And the media was right behind them.

          • Paul 1.4.2.1.2

            That is a total misrepresentation of the facts. People did not know that Douglas and his cadre were about to implement neo-liberal policies when the voted in 1984. They did know about the anti-nuclear policies.
            Once they found out about Labour ‘doing the bidding of the right economically’, the Labour Party split in two.
            Just as the puppet masters of Douglas and Prebble planned.

        • Puckish Rogue 1.4.2.2

          It also didn’t hurt that Lange was a helluva of talker with a huge amount of charisma

        • The Lone Haranguer 1.4.2.3

          I choose to disagree.

          Supporting a nuclear free pacific was our own self interest at its finest.

          And fair enough too. We had seen the evidence of what a couple of nuclear bombs could do, in old WW2 footage.

          We havent really seen what climate change will do to us and to our lifestyles, so our self interest warning beacon isnt actually going off. And we are told that the cost of putting climate change right, is a huge raise in the cost on our power bill and a huge raise in the cost of filling our cars.

          And our self interest in more interested in keeping warm in winter, and feeding the kids

          • Populuxe1 1.4.2.3.1

            Oh please. It was clever politics, but the likelihood of anyone nuking us was and remains fractionally above zero.

      • Tracey 1.4.3

        How much does NZ receive in royalties in say, the last three years? How many jobs are there in the drilling game?

    • Draco T Bastard 1.5

      National appears to be tightening its grip on the election, with our latest poll cementing its massive lead.

      Today’s stuff.co.nz/Ipsos Political poll has National on 54.8 per cent support – a staggering 30-point lead over Labour, but down 1.7 points from our last poll.

      Cementing it’s lead by being down on the latest poll?

      Yeah, massive bias in the MSM.

      • Tom Jackson 1.5.1

        Oh come on. Just accept that the voters are clowns and move on.

        • Jenny 1.5.1.1

          “Oh come on. Just accept that the voters are clowns and move on.”

          Tom Jackson

          “There is no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals”

          Napoleon

          Hmmm? I wonder which wisdom I should accept.

          • Tom Jackson 1.5.1.1.1

            Napoleon lost.

            • Jenny 1.5.1.1.1.1

              So?

              Maybe Napoleon had a lot more self awareness than he has been credited with.

              That ill fated march into Russia must have been a bit of a kick in the teeth.

              And I imagine that a long stretch on St Helena would have led to quite a bit of introspection.

            • Tracey 1.5.1.1.1.2

              Only at the end 😉

    • Doug 1.6

      It’s the worst performing portfolio because it’s not a real portfolio Jenny. It’s time you lot woke up. If you want this country to remain in the first world we need to stop being held back by a bunch of rope headed tie dyed combie drivers stuck in the 1960’s.

      • Jenny 1.6.1

        we need to stop being held back by a bunch of rope headed tie dyed combie drivers stuck in the 1960′s.

        Doug

        We need to stop being held back by a bunch of greasy V8 driver petrol heads stuck in the 1950’s.

        Jenny

        Actually Doug it is the tired old climate change deniers like yourself that are more akin to backward looking luddites dreaming of some ridiculous past “age of illusion”. It’s time you woke up. The age of fossil fuels is passing, as it must.

        It is way past time for all of us to enter the 21st Century and embrace the new “clean tech.

        “Grease” is not “the word”.

        • Murray Olsen 1.6.1.1

          +1 Jenny

          It’s the deniers who are stuck in the past. We want a future.

  2. Gosman 2

    The Roy Morgan poll isn’t good news either.

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5684-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-july-16-2014-201407160655

    Why no bounce in the polls from the Labour party conference do you think? Could it be that Cunliffe’s apology for being a man (perceived or not) has not gone down well?

    • karol 2.1

      You omitted to report that, on that poll, Greens are on the rise. See also your comment at 1.1

      • Paul 2.1.1

        I wouldn’t bother discussing polls with right wing tr**ls, karol.

        • karol 2.1.1.1

          Not really discussing, Paul. Just pointing out a glaring contradiction between comments.

          • Paul 2.1.1.1.1

            Yes it’s great to see the Greens doing so well.

            • karol 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes. I’m not that interested in polls, but I was intrigued by Gos’s selective comments re the Greens.

              • Tracey

                its his MO? He pretends to be this intellectual revealling the wrong thinking of everyone who doesnt share his ideology… Because his ideology, rather than a desire for truth or factual analysis, he contradicts himself, frequently, and avoids questions which challenge him. This is why often when he seems to be answering questions he actually doesnt answer the question at all.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Well the Greens become the main party of the left after this next election? Its getting close.

                • swordfish

                  Shouldn’t think so, me old luv. But quite possible their vote will equal about half of Labour’s, possibly slightly more than half if they’re lucky.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    You think? Even Roy Morgans saying Labours on 23.5 while the Greens are on 15% and it’ll probably only get worse for Labour

              • Paul

                That’s because he comes here to stir, not discuss the issues.

                • Ennui

                  Gos does indeed come to stir: and every time he picks on Labour or somebody else individually. The things that get forgotten in these one on one skirmishes are:
                  * Its not Labour that counts, its the combined Left.
                  * National have so few other friends on the Right, if the polls say they have fifty plus then they are actually likely to get 45% or less. Wheres the extra 6% coming from?

                  So Gos, eat on it, the Right are in big trouble, and you know it.

                  • Rosie

                    +1 Ennui. RW’er’s seem to still have trouble with MMP

                    • The Lone Haranguer

                      No, we have problems with the Nats hoovering up all the support, and leaving no crumbs for the support parties.

                      It also makes them smug, uncaring (why change anything?) and unwilling to investigate alternative policy.

                      Even if they could achieve it, a 50.1% for the Nats would be bad for the country. As would 50.1% for Labour in the past.

      • cricklewood 2.1.2

        It seems that some Labour vote is heading green. Its hardly surprising when you compare the two, the Greens are far better operators at the moment their policy release and media management are far better. They also dont have mp’s running around doing a piss poor job of communicating policy.

    • Skinny 2.2

      Yeah in my opinion that comment tended to annoy a lot of males, it just appeared flakey, I guess people would compare DC to Key and come to the conclusion that Cunliffe is not as smart as Key.

      Being honest I think people look at Labour and are put off by the same old faces from the last Labour Government, it even bothers me. At least Key-National have refreshed their line up of MP’s. Should Labour fail to win office they would have to retire 50% of their current MP’s to stand any chance of wining the next election or the Greens will be the main opposition party.

      • karol 2.2.1

        But then Cunliffe’s comment went down well with quite a few men, and many women.

        • Tracey 2.2.1.1

          tony ryall says he is embarrassed to have never been to te kuiti hospital til yesterday. Not embarrassed however at the decision regarding maternity care in te awamutu and morrinsville.

          Shame is a funny old thing.

        • Ennui 2.2.1.2

          It sounded crap as a soundbyte…when played in context it made the remarks of Key and his cronies sound exactly what they are: misogynistic, patriarchal and and uncaring. Cunliffe is to be applauded, I expect that he will only gain votes.

        • Enough is Enough 2.2.1.3

          Well yes his comments may have gone down well with some people. That does not mean it was a politically clever move when the sole goal in 2014 is to win office and remove Key and his cronies.

          This is politics. And in election year it is not wise to alienate potential voters.

    • Paul 2.3

      As an ACT or National Party member, I doubt you care …
      But let’s test that supposition….
      Do you think economic inequality is a problem in New Zealand?
      How did you think we got into this position?
      What should we do to address these problems?

      Or do you think discussing polls is the most important thing we should be doing 60 days out from an election?

    • Jenny 2.4

      Why no bounce in the polls from the Labour party conference do you think? Could it be that Cunliffe’s apology for being a man (perceived or not) has not gone down well?

      Gosman

      David Cunliffe’s deliberate omission of the words “climate change” in his speech to the congress, (not mentioning it even once) and his refusal to give leadership on this issue now that he is leader, reeked of cowardice and backtracking on his earlier position given when he wasn’t leader.

      • Jenny 2.4.1

        David Cunliffe on climate change 2012

        When we look back on it, the worst crisis of the 21st century won’t be the ‘Great Recession’ since the global financial crash of 2008—it will be the ‘Great Compression’ that is coming at us because of energy shocks, climate change, population growth and resource shortage. In a book called The Meaning of the 21st Century1, James Martin likened the first half of the century to a funnel that humankind will have to pass through to reach a more sustainable future, or any future at all.

        Fuelling the Flames: Fundamental to the predicament facing civilisation whereby humanity and as many other species possible must be funnelled through the fossil-fuel phase-out canyon, is population growth, not least of all in the grossly over-consuming North. More immediately, global warming is pouring fuel on wildfire events such as that raging in Waldo Canyon—aside from the heat wave, Colorado is part of the desert southwest, which is predicted to reach 1930s Dust Bowl conditions in the next several decades, and last winter the snowpack was 2% of normal, and warmer winters have caused mountain pine beetle beetles to thrive, killing 90% of some forests.

        Sure, we will have to both protect dolphins and shorten dole queues, which is what you will be expecting from the title of this speech. But actually, the nature of this crisis is far deeper and more fundamental than the standard environment-economy trade-off thinking might suppose. The coming crisis threatens more than just marine biodiversity. The species we are trying to save could be our own.

        In that context today I am going to say three things: First, why these risks are fundamental and in some cases life-threatening. Second, what contribution smart, clean technology and renewable energy could make to addressing the risks and providing a way forward. Third, we should not pretend that just ‘installing solar water heaters’ is going to save the planet on its own.

        And fourth, how we can begin to think logically and clearly about making the tough decisions and trade-offs that are ahead of us. One thing is certain—much stronger action will be needed. Much will depend on each and every one of you, as well as on future governments.

        David Cunliffe June 23, 2012 (shortly after he gave this speech, David Cunliffe’s caucus colleagues ganged up on him and dumped him to the back benches. You can’t help wondering if he was cowed by this experience.)

        David Cunliffe on climate change 2014 elections (so far)

        David Cunliffe

        • Jackal 2.4.1.1

          That’s terribly unfair of you Jenny! In fact such an easily disproven contention by you shows that you’re commentary is akin to some of the right wing trolling that frequents these pages.

          Here’s a recent (June 2014) press release by Labour Leader David Cunliffe:

          I’m personally shocked that New Zealand is in the sights of a proposal by Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott to oppose United States plans for more progressive climate change policies.

          Mr Key should move immediately to reassure New Zealanders that his government truly does ‘take climate change seriously’, has not at any level engaged on this proposal, and would reject any such initiative.

          But don’t let this article or any other get in the way of you making completely unfounded claims about where Labour and the Green’s stand on climate change issues Jenny. God knows you haven’t in the past.

          • Jenny 2.4.1.1.1

            I actually remember this. How could not any political leader with any morals at all not be outraged by this?

            To have not said something would this would have been an outrage in its own right.

    • Bearded Git 2.5

      Gosman-it was a Congress.

      While admitting this is a bad poll (the Moa crap didn’t help) oddly Lab/Green/IMP/NZF at 46% still remain in touch with the motly crew Nats/Act/Maori/Cons.

      Cunliffe has done plenty to keep Winston on-side and he (Winnie) is really pissed off that the Nats gave some of their question time in parliament to Horan to hassle him.

      The campaign only has to shift 3% for the balance to change, and nobody believes Nats will poll 51%.

  3. Morrissey 3

    Third-rate comedian’s bewildered rant about Gaza
    Has The Panel ever been more dire than this?

    Radio NZ National, Wednesday 16 July 2014
    Jim Mora, Michelle Acourt, Jeremy Elwood

    One of the more inane habits of chat-show host Jim Mora is his frequent mentioning of the neocon New York Times columnist David Brooks. Apparently he thinks this name-checking will impress discerning listeners; this suggests he has not actually read more than a paragraph or two of Brooks’s barking mad opinion pieces.

    Mora is notorious for having a high tolerance for all kinds of foolishness, as anyone will know who has heard him swallow his scruples and guffaw along with the likes of such moral imbeciles as Barry Corbett, Stephen Franks, his acolyte Jordan Williams, the contemptuously anti-democracy National Party fixer Michelle Boag, Chris “Haw Haw” Trotter, Rosemary McLeod, and Nevil “Breivik” Gibson. The list of substandard Panel guests goes on and on and on; one of these days I’ll post up the whole sorry lot.

    This afternoon, Mora affected a patient, encouraging tone while professional “comedian” Jeremy Elwood used his Soapbox segment to unload a wandery, utterly bewildered rant about the latest Israeli blitzkrieg on Gaza. According to Elwood—and he took about three agonizing minutes of umming and ahhhing to spit it out—it’s not the crazed Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu that’s the problem, it’s the “extremists on both sides.” If it was a more gifted performer speaking these bizarre words, listeners might have been forgiven for thinking they were being treated to some kind of guerilla theatre prank, an exercise in the comedy of embarrassment, with Elwood assuming the character of an incoherent know-nothing. A sadder, more pathetic version of David Brent, perhaps, or one of Peter Cook’s hopeless old incompetent judges.

    Tragically, however, Jeremy Elwood wasn’t doing that. He was in his deadly serious mode, which he has unleashed on listeners to this program before. It’s a mode he employs on the TV3 show 7 Days; next time you tune in, take a look at Elwood’s face when Dai Henwood or Paul Ego or Jeremy Corbett veer off into some dodgy territory; Elwood almost always glowers with a parsonical disapproval. If his other half Michele Acourt happens to be on as well, she backs him up with her own arsenal of reproachful glares and unhappy frowns.

    This afternoon, Elwood unwisely chose to speak on something about which he knows little or nothing—not an unusual occurrence on this light chat show—which meant his three minutes of perplexed pontification was about as enlightening as a lecture on international law by Ban Ki Moon, as informed as a spray about justice by Garth “The Knife” McVicar and as confused as a talk about children’s rights by Christine Spankin’ Rankin.

    After Elwood’s dire ramble finally ended, the host finished with an appropriately whacky segue….

    JIM MORA: I read a column by Jack Tame today….

    Now perhaps—just perhaps—this was clever-clogs Mora’s way of honoring the spirit of incoherent stupidity struck by Elwood, but I fear he was also, just like the hapless “comedian”, being serious.

    Tame, by the way, has come into our crosshairs on more than one occasion in recent years. If you can bear it, I recommend you reacquaint yourself with some of his other columns….

    Open mike 21/10/2012

    Open mike 16/12/2012

    Open mike 17/07/2013

    • spot on there morrissy…!..(some of yr best-work there…)

      ..i took the dogs to the park halfway thru that dire-exercise…

      ..so missed what elwood had ‘been thinking’..

      ..his initials drivelings driving me out the door..

      ..and a timely tame-warning there…(he’s a new benchmark in lite-weight..putting the ‘fat’ in ‘fatuous’..really..)

      ..and do publish the full list of that (mainly) sorry cast of characters that mora wheels out..

      ..(reactionary-cliches on a stick..)

      ..fun cd b had with that…

      • Morrissey 3.1.1

        You were better off walking out the door than listening to that rubbish, Phillip. I shall put up the list soon. Keep watching this channel…

        • Paul 3.1.1.1

          Gave up listening to Mora about a year ago.
          Still enjoy your reports on his dire programme, pretending it is representative of NZ opinion…

    • Tracey 3.2

      netanyahu IS one of the extremistsfrom either side

    • North 3.3

      Fetid, celebrity-gloating spittle about sums it up. These are the ‘gifted’, the ‘insightful’ ???

    • Bearded Git 3.4

      Elwood is ok. Listen to the bit where he attacked the Taxpayers Union.

    • Paul 3.5

      A somewhat more informed opinion on Gaza than Elwood by Seumas Milne in The Guardian.

      “Gaza: this shameful injustice will only end if the cost of it rises
      The idea that Israel is defending itself from unprovoked attacks is absurd. Occupied people have the right to resist

      ‘For the third time in five years, the world’s fourth largest military power has launched a full-scale armed onslaught on one of its most deprived and overcrowded territories. Since Israel’s bombardment of the Gaza Strip began, just over a week ago, more than 200 Palestinians have been killed. Nearly 80% of the dead are civilians, over 20% of them children.

      Around 1,400 have been wounded and 1,255 Palestinian homes destroyed. So far, Palestinian fire has killed one Israeli on the other side of the barrier that makes blockaded Gaza the world’s largest open-air prison.

      But instead of demanding a halt to Israel’s campaign of collective punishment against what is still illegally occupied territory, the western powers have blamed the victims for fighting back. If it weren’t for Hamas’s rockets fired out of Gaza’s giant holding pen, they insist, all of this bloodletting would end.”

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people

      • Bearded Git 3.5.1

        Paul-excellent. The problem is we don’t have a serious political programme on TV discussing Gaza like this. Instead we have reality TV and Paul sodding Henry.

  4. swordfish 4

    @ Moz

    It’s the extremists on both sides – very much the standard default-position for anyone who’s genuinely concerned and well-meaning about the Israeli violence they see on their TV screen, but really don’t have too much of a clue about the historical or contemporary context (and are almost certainly worried that if they fully condemn Israel – as anyone would naturally be inclined to do after seeing the carnage – then they might just be accused of anti-Semitism. Better just to say “Faults on both sides / why can’t they all just live in peace” and various other meaningless platitudes – as the world’s longest and most brutal Occupation in modern history continues to wreak its havoc).

    • Populuxe1 4.1

      To be fair it was Hamas who broke th emost recent Egypt-brokered ceasefire.
      That’s not to say Israel isn’t mostly to blame, but Hamas isn’t helping. Failure to acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organisation (as distinct from the Palestinian civilians stuck in the middle) is to be unrealistic.
      While it is obvious that Israel’s response is grossly disproportionate, you can’t pretend that they are not in their rights to retaliate if attacked. Catch 22.
      It’s very well and good to play armchair diplomats from the safety and security of the other side of the world, and while I mostly side with the Palestinians, I’m no fan of Hamas (just as I am no fan of Hezbollah or similar groups). To understand is not to approve.

  5. Paul 5

    Wonder if Kathryn Ryan is going to try to speak to Coleman for the third day running.
    And is he still running scared?

    • karol 5.1

      Key and Coleman are probably hoping that, if they keep their heads down, most voters won’t notice. Then in a week or so they will continue fronting for stories of mass distraction. Most MSM journos and editors will follow.

      • Tracey 5.1.1

        given the poll results you can see why they think that way. For all the smugness by some about being on the winning team this election,they all can only say of the PMs lies, his parade of ministers unable to comply with the cabinet manual, is nothing, or winning is what matters.
        Same people who said signing a painting for charity required a PMs resignation.

      • greywarbler 5.1.2

        When Key or cosa nostra move their lips we should all shout –
        Is that a weapon of mass distraction?
        Good pun.

  6. Saarbo 6

    Can anyone tell me what may potentially happen if you “swim” in a river that is only deemed clean enough to “wade” in? Im thinking the difference in toxicity would be quite large between “swimmable” and “wadable”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/10275269/Keeping-your-head-above-water

    • it’s called setting the bar so low it is under water…

    • karol 6.2

      Google can help.

      The dirty/polluted water can cause some illnesses or infections, but may not be life threatening, except for those with immune deficiencies – the latter most common amongst the young and elderly.

      Can result in viruses – gastroenteritis, hepatitis, respiratory illness, and ear, nose, and throat problems

      NZ govt site says:

      Skin, eye and ear infections; stomach and respiratory illnesses. Bacteria can be swallowed with contaminated water or inhaled and can also enter the body through open wounds like cuts and scrapes. The amount of bacteria a person needs to ingest or inhale before becoming sick varies.

      So, instead of asking…. just google it for yourself.

      • phillip ure 6.2.1

        that’s the greens really going out on a green-limb there…eh..?

        ..setting the aspirational-bar high there..eh..?

        ..(‘just tell the old folks and the young..!..to step well back..!..

        ..’cos this river has the green stamp of approval..!

        ..so it’ll hurt them..!’..)

        ..seriously..?..yr defending this..?

        ..some of the green policies are ok..

        ..but this one..as setting an aspirational-goal..for our waterways..for our ‘green’-future..

        ..is beyond fucken pathetic..

        (note to self:..brace yrslf for ‘green-hate-campaign’-accusations..)

        • Tracey 6.2.1.1

          hopefully karol braced herself for your pretending to not like a particular green party policy rant when u are still jaundiced by them not doing what you want over cannabis. Oh thats right, she wouldnt need to cos she is mature

          • phillip ure 6.2.1.1.1

            gee tracy..let’s unpack that one..

            u r claiming i am ‘pretending’ to not like this policy..

            ..hand on heart..i am not ‘pretending’..

            ..i really really don’t like it..believe me..!..eh..?.

            ..and u r claiming i am ‘pretending’ b’cos i wd rather they actually said something about their pot-policies..?

            ..have i got that right..?

            ..well..i wd rather they were more vocal on pot..

            ..but to totally blow yr theory of an anti-green campaign i am running..’hate-campaign’..?..isn’t it..?

            ..i can but show what my coverage of the green party has been lately..eh..?

            http://whoar.co.nz/?s=green

            first five stories cd only b read as pro-green..showing them in a good lite..

            ..u have 2 get down to story six to reach yr first jarring-note..

            ..there i snipe at the green mayor of wellington..for her breaking of her campaign-promises to care for the homeless of wellington..

            .. i then scrolled for awhile..and found no anti-green ‘hate-campaign’ stories..

            ..so you really are just full of it..eh..?

            • Tracey 6.2.1.1.1.1

              whooooooosh

              • wow..!..biting comeback there..!..eh tracey..?

                ..that’s shut me up..

                ..are you a member of the nz alonquin(sic) round-table..?..r.u..?

            • bad12 6.2.1.1.1.2

              Still publishing utter shit about the Wellington City Mayor Phillip…

              • show me the evidence that i am misrepresenting the truth..

                ..and i will issue a humble-apology..

                ..’till then..as usual..u r just all mouth..eh..?

                • bad12

                  The typical fuckheads reply Phillip, exactly what i expected from you,

                  Make up a series of LIES about the Wellington city Mayor and when called upon those LIES demand others provide proof that you are not lying…

                  • have a fucken kit-kat..!..eh..?

                    • in april wade-brown ‘endorsed’ a ‘community-led initiative’..

                      ..so i guess that’s a start..

                      ..how long has she been mayor..?

                      ..and where have her (campaign-promised) ‘initiatives’ been in/during that time..?

                      ..no ‘evidence’ of them..eh..?

                      ..so i stand by what i said..

                      ..no apologies needed..

                    • bad12

                      Phillip likes to ‘pretend’ it supports ‘the left’, but, the amount of time ‘it’ spends undermining the parties of the left would strongly suggest that Phillip is just another ‘wing-nut’ using subterfuge in ‘its’ attacks,

                      The allegations, without a shred of proof, leveled at the Wellington City Mayor again this morning are akin to me accusing Phillip of being a paedophille where if i had i would rightly be called upon to provide proof of such an accusation…

                    • u piece of shit..

                      ..i will never engage with u again..

                      ..on any level..

                    • bad12

                      Absolutely laughable Phillip, now you know exactly how the Wellington City Mayor feels when you continually publish a trail of LIES about her,

                      i am tho sure you will in about the time the next joint blows away a handful more of your poorly treated neurons forget that, Ha ha ha, you are never ever going to engage with me again,

                      You cannot in fact resist…

        • Karen 6.2.1.2

          Don’t you care about the fish that live in the rivers Phillip?

          • phillip ure 6.2.1.2.1

            u got me there karen..i want the rivers dirtier..

            ..and a special mis-comprehension award 4 u..eh..?

            ..i am actually amazed/dismayed at how on this issue..incrementalism seems to have a death-grip on the green party..

            ..and after all these years of those posters showing them standing beside sparkling/babbling-brooks etc…

            ..shame there were no signs in those images saying:..’safe for wading only..beware the elderly and the young!’

            ..eh..?

          • bad12 6.2.1.2.2

            Phillip likes to wallow in industrially polluted waters, its piped directly into His home from the Waikato River…

    • Ennui 6.3

      Saarbo, the whole issue is fraught with nonsense, “swimmable” versus “wadable”, what crap. I have fished for years “wading” in streams…this quite often results in “swims”. Either way up until 10 years or there abouts ago I never worried about pollution.

      Over the last few seasons wading in the Ruamahanga I often notice a “stain” and an “odour”….a couple of years back I got a rash on my leg from wading (I suspect). Last season a minor cut on my leg turned septic after a prolonged “wade”.

      There are in my mind only binary states for a river, clean or polluted. No half stages. Advice on keeping your head above water is just bollocks.

      • Saarbo 6.3.1

        Thanks Ennui, Im thinking you could technically probably “wade” in some of the most polluted rivers in the world…more National Party sophistry Im thinking.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5684-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-july-16-2014-201407160655

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/10275359/National-holds-on-to-huge-lead

    Here let me help you lefties out…

    The polls don’t matter
    The only poll that counts is on election day
    Theres plenty of time until the election to turn things around
    People of the left don’t have land lines
    Once people get to know the real Cunliffe the polls will improve (for Labour)
    Once people get to know the real Key the polls will improve (for Labour)
    Door knocking indicates a massive ground swell of support for Labour

    Tell you what though this keeps up and the Greens may well become the main party of oppostion, its getting close

    • Paul 7.1

      Yup the tr**ls are here talking polls.
      Funny that.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1

        Hey remember Paul Roy Morgans polls are the only polls that exist apparantly

        But on another matterLabour 23.5% Greens at 15%, correct me if i’m wrong but I don’t think its ever been that close between them before so not quite big brother and little brother anymore which must have an effect on negotiations

        Interesting times ahead

        • Paul 7.1.1.1

          As an ACT or National Party member, I doubt you care …
          OK let’s test that supposition….
          Do you think economic inequality is a problem in New Zealand?
          How did you think we got into this position?
          What should we do to address these problems?

          Or do you think discussing polls is the most important thing we should be doing 60 days out from an election?

          • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1.1

            Being that I’m not an Act party member I’m not sure what you mean

            • Paul 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Do you think economic inequality is a problem in New Zealand?
              How did you think we got into this position?
              What should we do to address these problems?

              Or do you think discussing polls is the most important thing we should be doing 60 days out from an election?

              • Puckish Rogue

                Do you think economic inequality is a problem in New Zealand?

                • No, I think its something that the left try to blow out of all proportion in an attempt to discredit the governement and thus get into power

                How did you think we got into this position?

                • For the sake of arguement I’d say policies from both parties from the last few decades

                What should we do to address these problems?

                • Vote National or vote Labour but don’t let the Greens or IMP anywhere near the levers of power

                Or do you think discussing polls is the most important thing we should be doing 60 days out from an election?

                • Depends, do you want to get into power or not?
                • Paul

                  Your answers say so much….

                  Have you read this book?
                  Inequality: A New Zealand Crisis
                  http://www.bwb.co.nz/books/inequality

                  Heard these people speak?
                  https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/about/news-events-and-notices/events/events-2014/05/sir-douglas-robb-lectures.html

                  Or read their book?

                  Heard this guy talk?

                  Seen this film
                  http://inequalityforall.com/

                  What are your sources for your amazing statement about inequality?

                  ” I think its something that the left try to blow out of all proportion in an attempt to discredit the government and thus get into power.”

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Nothing I’ve seen equals what the left are trying to say and more people agree with me then you, simple as that

                    • Tracey

                      na-na-na-na-na

                      FIFY

                    • Paul

                      Please provide your sources which persuaded it’s just a left wing beat up.
                      The schoolyard argument ‘more people agree with me then you’ does not count, by the way as a persuasive argument.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I can say more people agree with me because the right wing block is over 50% whereas the left wing block is struggling along in the mid 30s

                    • Paul

                      Yes…but you haven’t answered my question, pr.
                      Before coming to your opinions on inequality, had you read or watched any of the resources I listed?
                      And what sources have you read/viewed to help you come to your opinion?

                    • Paul

                      Remember, pr, this is a debate about the actual issues, not the polls.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      No I haven’t read or watched as they’re discredited and of no interest to me, I prefer to see things with my own eyes rather then let a journalist tell me what to think

                    • Paul

                      You have written them off without reading them or watching them? I linked you to UK academics, US policy makers and NZ academics – all experts on the field they are writing about and backed by significant amounts of research.
                      You writing them off does not seem to be very open-minded.
                      Please could you then provide me with the sources that discredited them. I would love to reach your position of enlightenment on the subject.
                      Reference to Slater’s blog does not count as a source, btw.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      You have written them off without reading them or watching them?

                      • Yep

                      I linked you to UK academics, US policy makers and NZ academics – all experts on the field they are writing about and backed by significant amounts of research.
                      You writing them off does not seem to be very open-minded.

                      • I’m open-minded in some areas closed in others, this is one of the areas I’m closed-minded in

                      Please could you then provide me with the sources that discredited them. I would love to reach your position of enlightenment on the subject.
                      Reference to Slater’s blog does not count as a source, btw.

                      • Nope sorry, I can’t be bothered googling for information on subjects that don’t interest me
                    • framu

                      so your just being a time waster then

                      i thought your boss didnt like you on the internet

                    • Tracey

                      framu

                      that was yesterdays lie. The only consistent thing about our right wing trolls and their leader is they cant keep their lies straight.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Bosses away so the mice play 🙂

                    • Murray Olsen

                      Nope. Very few people agree with ACT. Some isolated religious cults might like your views on incest, and a few disturbed young men with tragic sex lives might like the selfishness explicit in your economic policies, but that’s about it.

              • The Lone Haranguer

                Paul,

                I do recall Roger Douglas having this new economic plan which was to catapult all into a meritocracy, rather than leaving success down to who you were clever enough to have as your father.

                I do recall Helen Clark pushing the line that good access to a decent education , was the way to catapult folk into a great future.

                It would appear that the Douglas plan didnt achieve what it promised and it would appear that the Clark plan has resulted many more entering tertiary style education, but, not necessarily catapulting into the great future.

                I gues both plans seemed legit to those who were promoting them.

                Is the real problem really inequality, or just the sense of hopessness that people have? That sense that there is no pathway to a better future for your kids?

            • deep throat 7.1.1.1.1.2

              @pukkish rogue.
              go and jump in the river!

        • phillip ure 7.1.1.2

          and p.r..u r a fool for making predictions when so much still has to happen…

          ..much much water to flow under many many bridges yet..

          ..amongst upcoming delights…just wait ’till the snowden-drop..when the voters will be able to read how much contempt the americans have for any idea of our sovereignty..

          ..and how they view key/nz much the same way a pimp regards their prostitutes..

          ..and it’s pretty much condom-free..eh..?

          ..they clearly prefer to ride us bareback..

          • Bob 7.1.1.2.1

            LOOK OUT PHILLIP! Your tinfoil hat has slipped again

            • phillip ure 7.1.1.2.1.1

              is that what passes for humour/giant-killer-comeback around yr neck of the woods..?

              ..just confirming that thesis that all rightwingers have a s.o.h. byepass at birth..?

              ..eh..?

              ..q.e.d…

    • bad12 7.2

      Thrills a minute for Puckish who should remember that at the same time befor the 2011 election the ‘polls’ were saying exactly the same thing,

      How did that ‘Governing alone’ work out three years ago…

      • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1

        I don’t expect National to govern alone but Roy Morgan has National 12.5% ahead of Labour/Greens and the Ipsos poll has National 17.5% ahead of Labour/Greens so on the whole its looking better for Nationa/Act/Maori then it is for Labour/Greens.IMP/Winston

        “How did that ‘Governing alone’ work out three years ago…”

        • Not so bad for National, less so for the left
        • bad12 7.2.1.1

          Scratch the Maori/Ninja Party, only you and Flavell are deluded enough to believe that they are headed anywhere but electoral oblivion,

          If Labour/Green run a smart campaign in Epsom, scratch ACT, the final act befor the curtain comes down on that blight upon the political landscape should occur in a few weeks,

          Scratch NZFirst, The tactical voters wont be there for Winston in 2014,

          National with the ‘Hairdo’ just doesn’t quite make up the numbers, a really really big opposition tho…

          • Tracey 7.2.1.1.1

            to get ACT out in epsom will require a decent number of Nat voters to vote for goldsmith

            ACT has had 19 MPs in its brief history. Three have been convicted of fraud, deception, or a form of both. That is over 15%.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.2

            Act will be back as will Peter Dunne, Flavel should hold his seat so theres 3 possibly 4 seats for National

            and this is as it should be because a party with over 40% support should be in some sort of power so yay democracy! 🙂

            • Molly 7.2.1.1.2.1

              … ” a party with over 40% support should be in some sort of power…”

              A party that does not have the support of 60% of the voters, is not entitled to anything, other than the opportunity to work with like-minded parties to form a coalition.

              Twenty years on and you are still confused about MMP?

              • Paul

                Politics for pr is just numbers.
                No vision for the future, no policies….
                Just data.
                What a sad state of affairs….

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Fair enough, see you in three years when the left might get into power

                  • Paul

                    Is power all there is to you?
                    What do you actually believe in?
                    We now know you don’t believe inequality is an problem in New Zealand.
                    What are the policies you do believe in…
                    By the way still waiting for your sources on inequality….

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I believe that National is NZs best chance for everybody to improve themselves, I believe that Labour arn’t too bad but the Greens live in cloud cuckoo land and I believe that power is a means to an end

              • bad12

                Puckish is simply confused about ‘everything’, polls being the latest bright and shiny thing that ‘its’ magpies pea brain has attracted ‘it’ to,

                If you take National’s polling leading into the 2011 election and compare it with the actual result as the comment below does, a different picture begins to emerge,

                If the same loss of traction occurs between the polls and actual vote in 2014 that occurred in 2011 then National is likely to gain at best 44% of the party vote in September,

                That’s one hell of a big opposition…

                • framu

                  hes not confused – hes just being a monumental dick on purpose

                • McFlock

                  A lot of the nactoid loss of traction was down to the Rena and the cup of tea raids.

                  That having been said, nothing loses tory votes like their engaging personalities shining through.

    • Bearded Git 7.3

      See my post above Pukish.

  8. Morrissey 8

    Watch: New Yorkers pierce through pro-war gathering with chants of ‘stop bombing Gaza now’

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/yorkers-gathering-bombing.html

  9. Paul 9

    Despite slimy Espiner’s nauseating interviewing techniques.

    • Chooky 9.1

      yes Russel Norman very, very good on Morning Report despite Espiner…the Greens are the party to vote for imo

      • infused 9.1.1

        Won’t be long before the Greens are the commanding left party.

        Labour needs to reform. They are useless. Drop the deadwood and start again.

    • greywarbler 9.2

      @Paul
      I thought Guy Le Spinner was showing improvement the other day.Didn’t hear Russel Norman.

      Turned off after the Mexican news of 500 girls and boys being in an orphanage that sold sex etc. Bad and only when it gets to 500 can we stir ourselves to care. I couldn’t stand it.

  10. Bob 10

    Serious question here, can the Stuff Ipsos poll be believed at all? http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10275359/National-holds-on-to-huge-lead
    When you break the voting down to regions it is saying Canterbury has National at 59.1% support, yet everything I personally see in the media around Canterbury is anti-National, anti-Gerry Brownlee, and shit is just not getting sorted, STILL!
    Either the MSM is running a anti-Government line in Canterbury, or Stuff have fallen onto a pocket of National voters in their calling and this poll is, to be direct, fucked.

    I know Canterbury isn’t just Christchurch, but surely if the re-build is going as badly down there as is being reported, a backlash against the Government would be widespread. Or have the MSM (especially John Campbell) just found a ratings winner and run with it?

    • Chooky 10.1

      yes I think the polls are really sus…i think many are refusing to answer them…i am one such person

    • Tracey 10.2

      look at the electorates that make up canterbury. Labour normally gets no traction in rural seats.

      A little over 15% of voters show as undecided in that poll on stuff.

      • Bob 10.2.1

        True, but you would still expect a bigger dent in National’s support from Christchurch itself. Surely they made up a significant % of the Canterbury votes based on population. Unless this poll is fundamentally flawed.

        • Paul 10.2.1.1

          Campbell Live keeps running stories which suggest a significant number of the population are disenchanted with EQC, Insurance companies and the government.

          • The Lone Haranguer 10.2.1.1.1

            Yes we are disenchanted with the injustices with EQC and the insurance companies particularly.

            But we also see Liane Dalziel as mayor struggling to change much at all. We have a general fear that a Labour lead Government will be no more effective than Lianne has been.

            The rural towns of Canterbury seem to be doing very nicely and will be strongly blue once again.

            • Jackal 10.2.1.1.1.1

              That’s not the point The Lone Haranguer. People just aren’t seeing on the ground the support for National that these polls are suggesting. It’s something that I’ve also noticed, being that it’s hard to find anybody in my local electorate who actually supports the current government.

              It’s similar in the New Zealand Blogosphere, whereby left wing bloggers outnumber right wing bloggers by a whopping 260% or 109 to 30. How do you explain such inconsistencies?

              • Bob

                Jackal, that is what I would expect, low support on the ground for National in Christchurch, which makes me think the Stuff Ipsos poll may not be as rosy for National as it looks.

                With regards to: “It’s similar in the New Zealand Blogosphere, whereby left wing bloggers outnumber right wing bloggers by a whopping 260% or 109 to 30. How do you explain such inconsistencies?”
                The two most viewed NZ blogs are Whaleoil and Kiwiblog, so it simply suggests that there are more people on the ‘Left’ trying to share their views, it doesn’t suggest there is more support for the ‘Left’.

                • Jackal

                  You cannot tell whether a blog is being viewed by more people who support left or right wing politics Bob. Many of the hits on sites like Cameron Slater’s will come from left wing viewers don’t you know.

                  You can however say that because there are more left wing bloggers than there are right wing bloggers there’s more support for left wing politics in the blogosphere. The concept that left wing people are more motivated to blog doesn’t explain the huge 260% difference.

                  This is just one more example of why the polls and perhaps even the election poll itself might not be accurate.

              • The Lone Haranguer

                Im in Brownlees electorate. I find the locals think the Nats are doing an okay job in very trying circumstances. And that it would be disloyal to change teams now.

                I would expect the Labour/Greens/IMP grouping to win more party votes in Chch than the Nats on 20 September.

                Regarding blogger numbers, I guess it reflects politics really – a few RW blogs, and a heap of LW ones which suggest one of three things:
                The LW bloggers are fragmented group who cant actually work together successfully
                The LW bloggers like the sound of their own voices at lot (Whoar)
                The RW dont need bloggers because apparently, they already have the MSM (I learned that here)

                • Jackal

                  Actually I’ve counted blogs like The Standard and The Daily Blog as one blog author, so it’s a very rough estimate. Don’t have time to do an exact comparison.

                  The fact that TDB has over forty different people blogging while right wing blog sites like Kiwibog and FailOil apparently only have one (bar catcus Kate) shows them to be “fragmented”. There are clearly more co-operative blogs on the left.

                  Your contention that the MSM has more right wingers is perhaps feasible, but you would need to compare the exact amount of left versus right wing journalists?

            • Tracey 10.2.1.1.1.2

              how many years did parker and national have to embed the mess? She has had less than a year to undo it, so stick with national?

              • The Lone Haranguer

                I think a lot of those on the right voted for a fresh start in Chch, with the mayoral elections. Im not sure that they now feel that they are seeing too much progress – apart from Ms Dalziel being honest about what we now can, and can not afford. I have no doubt that the Christchurch mayoralty is a pretty thankless task.

                Her bigger risk will be her voters from the East, who are not getting what they thought they would be getting when she was voted in.

        • Tracey 10.2.1.2

          Epsom voters for national, keep voting for ACT, no matter how many of their MPs get done for fraud. There is none so blindly self interested as a National voter. Also, the biggest complaints in CHCH arent from right wing areas… they are all pretty good by now, and their rental investments are doing even better.

  11. swordfish 11

    To Our Dear Tory Chum Puckish

    National Party’s poll ratings over the last month: 50%…..50%…….57%…….50%…….50%……..48%…….51%…….55% = 51.3 average

    National Party’s poll ratings at same distance from election in 2011:
    57%……..57%…….51%…….54%…….56%…….57%…….56% = 55.4 average

    (I might add, on top of this, that the 55% and 57% in recent weeks have both been Fairfax-Ipsos. No other polling Company has had them close to that. Make of it what you will)

    National received 47% at 2011 Election (down 8 points on their polling this far out). Sooooo………
    National will receive what ? at 2014 Election ? 51% minus 8 points is ………..? What’s the answer, Puckie ?

    • Karen 11.1

      Thanks Swordfish. That gives me a glimmer of hope.

      I guess Labour’s poor polling is to be expected considering the unrelenting attacks on Cunliffe in MSM over the past month, and the improvement in the Green vote in the Roy Morgan poll is a relief. I still cannot fathom why the Nats and Key get support from so many people.

      • Tracey 11.1.1

        dont under estimate the powering of marketing. People buy all kinds of things they dont need, or didnt even know they wanted, because of advertising. National has a master in manipulation of people in crosby textor

      • Olwyn 11.1.2

        This is my response to the polls: on Saturday I shall go out door-knocking. On September 20th, the polls will turn out to have been a true or false indicator. If they prove true, this will suggest that the people who are not too troubled by Pike River, Christchurch, Glen Innes and much else, outnumber those who are, and who are scared for themselves and others. This will disappoint me, and cause me to wonder whether staying in NZ for me would be a bit like staying at a party at which I am not welcome. But for now, I shall go door-knocking and urge others to vote left. For me, to paraphrase Socrates, it is not about some small matter (like polls) but about how we shall live our lives.

        • Anne 11.1.2.1

          If Labour/Greens lose for the reasons Olwyn has stated, then it is a terrible indictment on the majority of New Zealanders. It will show that the politics of avarice, selfishness and total disregard for the rights of others has become the new political mantra. In other words… the politics of the individual and the rest of you can go to hell in a hand basket.

          The result will be catastrophic on so many levels and yes Jenny, global warming is a huge part of it. It will probably start with the USA falling over and the domino effect will kick in immediately. And you know what? I don’t have a tot of sympathy for any of them – including their children who will have to try and pick up the smashed pieces. I might add that includes members of my family who have become slaves to the “individualism is best belief model”.

          • phillip ure 11.1.2.1.1

            @ anne..

            “..It will show that the politics of avarice, selfishness and total disregard for the rights of others has become the new political mantra. In other words… the politics of the individual and the rest of you can go to hell in a hand basket…”

            nine yrs of the clark labour govt. bedded that in..

            ..and so well prepared the ground for the pogrom on the poor being run by ‘ladders’ bennett…

            ..just ignoring the poor..has become the new norm..

            ..but it’s nothing that new..

            ..and all i recall there being said on that subject during those nine years..was nothing..

            ..the silences were deafening..

            ..the poor became the forgotten/ignored ones..

            ..everyone pretended the poor were just waving..not drowning…

            ..like i said..it’s nothing new..

            • Olwyn 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Phillip I think you are too hard on Helen Clark’s government. It seems to me that governments at the present time are forced to act under considerable constraints – they have to borrow money to do things, and the conditions for this borrowing seem to include following quite a narrow economic line. That Labour government, and it seems also the present contender, saw increasing savings as a way of gaining some sort of choice in the matter. However, Clark’s government did not follow the line with anything like the mafia-esque zeal of the present lot, and people did not live in fear under her watch. In fact the poor man in Wellington who rang the police the night she lost the election, and who was roundly mocked by the media, showed some foresight as to what lay ahead.

              • olwyn..those clark years were when nz really had a ‘rock-star economy’…

                ..and clark govt didn’t ‘borrow’..they paid down debt..(remember.?..this was pre-g.f.c..)

                ..and for those nine long ‘rock star economy’ yrs..the clark govt did nothing for the poorest..

                ..in fact..clark wiped the ‘allowances’ benificiaries cd apply for..

                ..she made their lives worse/harder..

                ..and at the same time as doing absolutely nothing for the poorest for those nine long years..

                ..clark shed crocodile-tears over couples/families ‘struggling’ on seventy grand a year..

                ..as her reasoning for the bringing in of middle-class welfare..in the form of ‘working for (some) families’..

                ..these are all irrefutable-facts..olwyn..

                ..it’s not me ‘being hard’ on the clark govt..

                .and a large part of labours’ current problem..

                ..is that looking at them all grouped together..

                ..except for the absence of clark..

                …it is just like looking back at the govt of that era..

                ..there is really no sense of any renewal..any changes..

                ..it’s still goff/mallard/king etc..

                ..staring back at you..

                ..and in the main..parroting the same neo-lib politics..

                ..and many people are like me..

                ..not trusting them..seeing little real difference to their lot..

                ..shd labour get back in again..

                ..and isn’t cunnliffes’/labours’ swing back to the centre going well for them..eh..?

    • Puckish Rogue 11.2

      51% minus 8 points is ………..? What’s the answer, Puckie ?

      The answer is National + Act + Maori Party = 3 more years for National and if needed theres good ‘ol Peter Dunne as well

      But keep believing in the delusion that there will a massive, organic rising up of dissatisfied voters that will surge to polls and sweep in the left all while singing raise the red flag 🙂

      • swordfish 11.2.1

        Ahhh, a bit of a panicky reply there, sweet-pea. Not convincing at all. “a massive organic rising up of dissatisfied voters that will surge to polls” That’s nothing more than the panic-ridden gibberish of a man who’s just been caught out and hasn’t got an answer.

        (Unintentionally) hilarious stuff.

        No, Puckie, unlike you, my analysis remains firmly grounded in cold, hard, real polling stats. After soaring in the polls for an extremely long time, the Nats suddenly went into a nose-dive in the run-up to not only the 2011 but also the 2008 Election. Facts, my wonderfully colourful Tory chum, facts.

        • Tracey 11.2.1.1

          PR doesn’t work from facts.

        • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1.2

          Facts are wonderful things

          Fact: National won the last two elections
          Fact: All the leading polls (including Roy Morgan) put National of Labour/Greens ahead by a considerable amount

          Now then you can say whatever you like but it doesn’t change the fact that National is in a stronger position in the run up to the next election then Labour/Greens are

          • swordfish 11.2.1.2.1

            Awww, it’s just not your day, is it, Pucks ?

            Let’s take you through it slowly, shall we ?

            Your contention is essentially that National’s poorer Poll position at the moment vis-à-vis 2011 doesn’t really matter because it’s superseded by the fact that “All the leading polls…put National of Labour/Greens ahead by a considerable amount.”

            Now putting aside the obvious gibberish contained within that outrageously tortured sentence, you’re going to have to deal with this:

            (1) Percentage point gap between National and combined Lab+Green in recent polls….10…….9…….22…….10…….9…….8…….11…….18 = average 12 points (once again, bear in mind the big gaps – 18 and 22 – are in the somewhat iffy Fairfax-Ipsos polls – they starkly contrast with all the others)

            (2) Percentage point gap between National and combined Lab+Green in polls at same point in 2011…….20…….23…….9…….16…….18…….21…….19 = average 18 points

            • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1.2.1.1

              I say National will form the next government, who do you think will form the next government?

          • Te Reo Putake 11.2.1.2.2

            Fact: National did not win the last two elections. They were, however, able to form majority governments with the assistance of ACT, UF and the maori party. All 3 of those parties are on life support as a result of the association.

        • phillip ure 11.2.1.3

          @ swordfish..

          “..Facts, my wonderfully colourful Tory chum, facts…”

          ..heh..!

    • infused 11.3

      With low National voter turn out, because it was a done deal.

      Not this time.

      • swordfish 11.3.1

        (1) Both Rob Salmond and Puddleglum have demolished that argument on their respective blogs.

        (2) On top of that, not even Key or Joyce, let alone Farrar or Whaleoil, have made the Nats stayed at home argument for 2008. You’re suggesting 2008 was considered a done deal by ordinary National voters, are you ? An Election where the Nats slipped in by the skin of their teeth and where the very last, highly publicised, poll of the campaign put the Left slightly in front. And yet the average Tory voter was yawn yawn blasé ? Don’t think so, sweetness.

        • infused 11.3.1.1

          2011 you muppet.

          And Key has, on many occasions.

          • swordfish 11.3.1.1.1

            See my comment at 10.2.1, you muppet.

            The Nats took a nose-dive at both the 08 and 11 Elections.

            So, Low National voter turnout because it was a done deal doesn’t cut the mustard, OK, sweet-pea ? Penny dropped yet ?

        • Tracey 11.3.1.2

          Fascinating how even in the face of factual contradiction of their “belief” they obsficate to create a new variation of their belief. It is hard for anyone to admit they have been lied to and duped. It seems some consider it better to keep looking foolish.

    • Rosie 11.4

      Thanks swordfish, for bringing the soothing balm of sanity to your analysis of the polls.

      There’s no need to get high blood pressure over “the polls” when one see’s the reason and logic you bring. It’s a great service you do.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.4.1

        Just a shame it won’t translate into votes on election day

        • Pasupial 11.4.1.1

          PR

          I agree that swordfish neatly demonstrates that National’s current high poll numbers; “won’t translate into votes on election day”, once the undecided & nonrespondent choose which box to tick.

          You are the only one here who thinks that is a shame though.

          • Tracey 11.4.1.1.1

            Swordfish was giving a factual analysis of this poll, past polls and how that might or might not reflect the outcome on election day… PR contribution is a kid of na-na-na-na-na.

            Maybe we have a day here when no one replies to posts by PR! Gosman, srylands, etc and see how the day turns out.

        • framu 11.4.1.2

          your really pushing this one – its like… your… paid to do it

        • Rosie 11.4.1.3

          What a shiny crystal ball you have there PR! Be careful, your confidence may just come back to embarrass you on 20th September.

          TRP has made a good point about the weakness of The Maori Party, Act and UF. You need to pay attention to that and just how close and tight things might be on the day.

          Lol, and as for good ol’ Dunne as you put it, above, don’t count your chickens, he has become increasingly unpopular amongst the residents of Ohariu over the last 3 years.

    • Enough is Enough 11.5

      Swordfish, I am desperate for a change of government and I admire your confidence, but really?

      Is our confidence now based on historic poll trends and a hope that people who don’t care, will come and vote left. That my friend does not fill me with any confidence whatsoever.

      There is no excitement about an alternative government, no underlying theme that there is time for a change.

      This is a destructive government that should be easy to defeat. Yet Labour’s campaign looks like a train wreck proceeding in slow motion. Heck they still focussing on things like fucking Kim Dotcom.

      My stress is turning to anger.

      • Tracey 11.5.1

        swordfish is posting an analysis of the polls to show how they may not reflect an accurate view of the electorate. That is nothing to do with having confidence or not.

  12. greywarbler 12

    The police have appointed special Maori unit with targets to bring Maori crime rates down or something.
    Targets? Why can’t the outcomes be termed as a monitored projects and practicesa that show a steady decline. These to be discussed monthly by the team who can introduce mini projects on a short term basis. The kaupapa is that all is to be done firmly, fairly with a view to gaining co-operation, leading to law-abiding and positive activity in the group we will work with.

    Otherwise targets give moral hazard. See The Wire for a scenario where stats are being manipulated, effort made where it will be appreciated by the bigwig in charge who is running for higher office. Oops do we have that now? If so stop it!

    • Ennui 12.1

      Danger danger, every time I hear “special” and “ethnicity” at the same time lots of nasty thoughts pass through my KGB trained mind….like the thinking by somebody (not us but) called “us” and “we”:
      –once “we” have made an ethnicity special we can “target” “them”….
      –“they” are “special” so they need “special treatment”…….
      –now we can identify the “ethnicity” as “special and distinct” they can become “they”…aka not us.

      Now would it not be nice if there was not a “special” unit set up by the Police to “target” “white” “middle aged men” who commit terrible financial crimes against the rest of “us”. Necessary actually but might be promoted like a cup of cold sick in the papers (owned by the same bunch).

    • Macro 12.2

      Targets can be achieved easily as we see by fudging the figures. Not only in crime but in emissions and pollution of rivers and numbers in work and … Oh its a great thing to set targets! It looks as if you actually care!

  13. Graham 13

    Canterbury
    There are parts of the city that aren’t doing well. But there’s nothing new in that
    Waimakirri selwyen and Ashburton district are doing very well
    Due to cows and population movement from chch
    The media will highlight some poor bugger who dosent have a job in east chch living in a crap house
    When down the road in rollestown the town is growing rapidly and workers are hard to find
    The media are the opposite of pr company’s
    A pr company will find a story and put a positive spin on it
    In media misery sells
    Be it garza ,car crash etc
    It’s not that bad down here

    • freedom 14.1

      when you ask a person to paint a fence and tell them they only have to paint one side, what other outcome can you expect but a half painted fence.

      • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1

        Or simply there was no case to answer

        • Tiger Mountain 14.1.1.1

          IPCA should be given its correct title, PACA–Police Arse Covering Authority.

          Ordinary citizens might try and defend their next offence notice or charge with “I went with the advice I was given” or even “didn’t realise I was breaking the law”.

          • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.1.1

            You do that and let us know how that works out for you

            • Tiger Mountain 14.1.1.1.1.1

              My attempt at humour obviously went over some heads; n.b. those charged with dispensing the law to others should have a damn good understanding of it AND apply it.

              The security services and coppers just chose to ignore the law in respect to illegal snooping on Dotcom and others because it suited them to do so and they thought they could get away with it until a slip up by one of their own in court which first implicated the GCSB in the Dotcom raid and wider case.

              And despite the digital era and 5 Eyes posturing traces of the bungling “pie and Penthouse” culture of the security forces seems to persist if the Herald obtained emails are anything to go on.

        • freedom 14.1.1.2

          The advice they acted on, was not included as part of the review.

          Any ongoing investigation of the investigation after that omission is meaningless wiffle-waffle

    • framu 14.2

      so state power breaks law – police dont lay charges – your cool with that

      is that how it goes?

  14. Morrissey 15

    Kathryn Ryan continues with her high quality broadcasting
    (That was a joke, by the way)

    Nine to Noon, Radio NZ National, Thursday 17 July 2014

    Believe it or not, that glib, complacent waste of space Kathryn Ryan went “live” to Radio NZ political editor Brent Edwards this morning, to discuss the report on the government’s illegal spying into New Zealand citizens. Incredibly, she referred to it as “allegedly illegal spying”, as if the chief government spin-meister Steven Joyce himself was hovering menacingly behind her. Brent Edwards, clearly flabbergasted by what she had said, restrained himself from contradicting her on air, but went out of his way to immediately reiterate that it was illegal spying. It was as close to an on-air correction he felt able to carry out.

    I sent Ryan the following email, but I’m not expecting either a serious or coherent answer from her….

    It was not “allegedly” illegal spying, as you incorrectly said

    Dear Kathryn,

    When talking to Brent Edwards, you spoke (perhaps unwittingly) of the “allegedly illegal spying” by the government.

    Brent Edwards corrected you pointedly on air by immediately repeating the fact that it was illegal spying, not “allegedly” illegal spying.

    I am disappointed that you are not more rigorous in your on-air comments. You occupy an influential broadcasting position; you have a duty to be fair and accurate in your comments.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Lanthanide 15.1

      And yet you yourself refused to acknowledge, or apologize, when you blatantly used Barrack Obama’s middle name as if it were some sort of slander in one of your tedious ‘list of liars’ updates, despite not having previously used any leaders middle names, or indeed Obama’s middle name the previous time you’d featured him in the list.

      Subsequent updates showed you’d taken the criticism and removed his middle name, but never commented on what you did.

      Why is that, Morrissey?

      • Morrissey 15.1.1

        And yet you yourself refused to acknowledge, or apologize, when you blatantly used Barrack [sic] Obama’s middle name as if it were some sort of slander in one of your tedious ‘list of liars’ updates

        You mean “Liars of Our Time”….

        Open mike 08/06/2014

        Could you explain for those of us on Planet Earth how using his middle name would slander him? You will no doubt be writing to the President to upbraid him for slandering himself during his own inauguration….

        ….despite not having previously used any leaders [sic] middle names, or indeed Obama’s middle name the previous time you’d featured him in the list.

        It was a stylistic flourish, nothing more, nothing less. Now, you just go right ahead and prove that I was trying to mobilize some of the anti-Islamic morons that lurk on this site. I look forward to your (no doubt impressive) exegesis.

        Subsequent updates showed you’d taken the criticism and removed his middle name, but never commented on what you did.

        I removed it because there was no good reason to keep it. I didn’t comment on it because it was an utterly trivial matter, signifying nothing. You, though, I have no doubt, will now prove irrefutably that I was engaged in a brutal assault on Obama’s reputation, along with my good friends Rush Limbaugh, Donald Trump and Leighton Smith.

        Oh yes indeed.

        Why is that, Morrissey?

        I’ll leave that complex explanation up to you, my scholarly friend.

  15. Rosie 16

    Olwyn mentioned Pike River above.

    I’m half way through “Tragedy at Pike River Mine: How and why 29 men died” by Rebecca MacFie.

    If you have questions about how the management and operations at Pike River Mine which was meant to be “a showcase of modern mining” got to be so bad that 29 workers were killed I recommend you read this book.

    The research that has gone into the book is incredibly thorough. The history, steps and processes of the mine’s management are clearly spelled out as the miners go “marching to calamity” (which is the title of chapter 8).

    It’s written in a way that is accessible for most readers – it will cause a reaction for most I should imagine though. It took me awhile to get through the prologue, I was in tears. Anger follows that as you begin to see how avoidable that disaster was.

    • bad12 16.1

      Rosie, i will assume that the book goes into full detail and draws conclusions for its readers, while you are reading that book consider for a moment after the conclusion has been read that no-one has canvassed any ‘opinion’,(that i know of), suggesting that the first explosion at Pike River might well have been deliberate, an insurance job in other words for a mine that had come to realize that the golden seam of high value coal supposedly underground at Pike River did not exist,

      To all extents and purposes the mine was facing insolvency and could not meet its targets to fill impending orders for which ships had been dispatched to collect,(even trying to buy coal from Solid Energy to fill such orders),

      In His evidence to the Royal Commission the South African electrician, sent into the mine after the initial explosion, a man of 27 years experience in South African mines said, ”there was a strong smell of burned diesel in the mine, i have smelled this after the use of AMFRO explosives in mines in South Africa”,

      Strangely no-one, as if they had agreed not to, bothered to ask the South African electrician any further questions about this smell,

      The mine manager on the day, sorry the names of the players escapes me, in His evidence said that ”From the carpark of the mines office building, a kilometer from the mine, He smelled a strong smell of burned diesel”, this was after the mine had exploded, again no-one asked of Him what He thought could have been the cause of this burned diesel smell,

      Methane Gas, the supposed cause of the initial mine explosion has when combusted no detectable odor,

      The ‘investors’ in the Pike River Coal Company picked up a reputed $100 million insurance payout, i do not know if the book goes into these details, food for thought…

      • Te Reo Putake 16.1.1

        Well, that gets the pyroplastic flow award for the stupidest comment of the day, Bad.

        • Tiger Mountain 16.1.1.1

          I would not exactly drop that kind of speculation into a conversation just about anywhere bad.
          Read the book for a start, it is very moving and full of detail.

          Any “deliberate” contributing actions would be in the areas of industry de-regulation, safety and anti unionism.

          • bad12 16.1.1.1.1

            That’s a rather ‘dull’ critique of my comment Tiger Mountain, i do not need to read a book to get the facts of what occurred t Pike River, i read the evidence given to the Royal Commission which i suggest you do,

            Is there a ‘fact’ you wish to dispute from within my comment above or are you here to simply whine,

            Which ‘speculation’ are you suggesting i do not drop into just any conversation and why, do you doubt that when combusted Methane Gas has no odor,

            Are you perhaps suggesting that both the Pike River Mine Manager on the day of the first explosion at the mine, and, the electrician sent into the mine after the initial explosion either did not smell a strong smell of burned diesel or did not give evidence to that effect to the Royal Commission,

            Speculation my arse, i have simply made an inference from the evidence given…

            • Te Reo Putake 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Speculation and inference are often synonyms, Bad. Where inference trumps speculation is the quality of the facts relied upon in making the supposition. In your case, you have leapt from two people* noting a smell of burning diesel after a huge explosion and consequent fire into a bizarro world claim about a conspiracy to commit mass murder for no actual financial gain**.

              *We’ve only got your word that these two said any such thing. You used quotation marks, yet no such quotation exists. I call bullshit. Cite, please.

              ** The insurance payout did not financially benefit the shareholders and under our laws they were protected from the negative consequences of merely shutting the mine down. So why the fuck would they need your sad fantasy?

              • bad12

                You are as usual full of shit TRP, the first piece of shit was the ‘huge explosion’ and fire,

                The first explosion was not huge and there was no visible fire until after the subsequent explosions some days later,

                The rest of your blather is just that, you obviously haven’t read anything about Pike River and probably got all your pathetic knowledge from the Tee Vee,

                i might get around to digging out the link to the Pike River Royal Commission’s pages of evidence later TRP, but, seeing its you demanding such i would suggest you do not hold your breath,(then again maybe you should)…

                • Te Reo Putake

                  You’re lying, Bad. Not only have I read the evidence, and pored over the report, I even attended some of the hearings. Nowhere in the evidence is there a reference to “burned diesel”. If there was, you’d have fronted up with it already. You’re a coward and a liar. You can’t even name the men who you claim said there was that smell, let alone provide evidence that they said it. Which they didn’t. The only quotation you have provided (”there was a strong smell of burned diesel in the mine, i have smelled this after the use of AMFRO explosives in mines in South Africa”) you wrote yourself. If I’m wrong, you’ll have no difficulty proving it; it’s all online.

                  Cite or apologise, you bullshit artist.

                  • bad12

                    Laughable, you must be blind if you claim to have pored over the evidence, probably poured a bottle of whiskey down into your rotted gut first,

                    You did what attended a couple of days evidence and now your a world expert, what you are TRP is a cynical little wanker…

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      And yet I know you’re lying. Prove me wrong, show us the evidence. It’s not hard, it’s all online. Waiting, waiting …

        • bad12 16.1.1.2

          If your low level abuse has a point TRP perhaps you would be kind enough to let the readers know what it is…

      • Rosie 16.1.2

        Hi bad.

        Yes, the mine was heavily indebted to it’s investors including NZ Oil and Gas and a U.S lender, Liberty Harbor. Borrowed millions were bled away trying to get the mine built and running. A rosy glow was presented to investors that magnified production expectations and made light of the very serious issues, such as the collapse of the lower part of the ventilation shaft during construction. (thats only one example)So they kept on giving, they didn’t have the full picture. The lure of forecast $$$ must have been to great for them to question the reasons for the delay and budget blow outs.

        The book goes into great detail about the dire financial position the mine was in.

        I doubt 29 men were murdered for the sake of an insurance payout however.

        Pike was a highly gassy mine and despite the experienced and safety conscience crew (which was also made up of inexperienced poorly trained men) the odds were stacked against them as Whitall ignored the huge amount of formal hazard notices piling up in the office.

        One time, a new Aussie miner came to work in the mine before it was even in partial production, they were still building the 2.3km stone tunnel that led to the coal face. Without warning flames went over head, across the ceiling of the tunnel. The chipping of the stone from the roadheader machine used to dig the tunnel created sparks that ignited methane that was seeping out of rock. This occurred 10 times before anything was done about it.

        He commented that in Aussie under their mine regulations such a near miss would mean immediate stop work and the evacuation of the men. He was one of many who after trying to reason with whitall about the dangerous conditions of the mine, left, disillusioned. Once again this is only one example of the the danger the men worked in daily and of managements inability to mitigate hazards and protect the workers from harm.

        Under these conditions it was inevitable that there was going to be loss of life.

        Have a read of the book, it’s probably available at the Kilbirnie library. The author simply provides the reader with the facts and reports the conversations she had with those she interviewed.

        • bad12 16.1.2.1

          i read all the evidence given to the Royal Commission thanks Rosie, what you will notice everywhere is that no attempt by anyone has ever been made to explain the burned diesel smell which both the mine manager on the day and the electrician gave evidence of smelling,

          The South African electrician even described it as the same as AMFRO explosives, as i point out above Methane Gas when combusted is odorless…

          • Rosie 16.1.2.1.1

            I understand there is additional info in the book that wasn’t aired during the Royal Commission of Enquiry, the author interviews for example.

            I haven’t finished the book yet so don’t know whether the S.A electricians description of the burnt diesel /explosives smell is included. As such I’m reluctant to speculate where that smell may have originated from. I will let you know if it is covered though, as I get further into the book.

            I’m remain doubtful that it could have potentially been an insurance job, given what I have read so far and given that would be mass murder.

            • bad12 16.1.2.1.1.1

              Oh i see your point Rosie, to all extents and purposes that mine was a bomb waiting for a spark to ignite it, on at least half the 40 days leading up to the explosion the level of Methane in the mine was such that it could have exploded at any time a spark was struck,

              During this 40 days ‘the Board’ had tasked someone to ‘find’ money to keep the mine running from outside sources as the major shareholders had balked at putting in any more coin, this fund-raising failed,

              my question, did persons unknown get tired of waiting for the inevitable to occur,

              Definitely let us know what the book concludes if anything Rosie,(and if either of the witnesses evidence of the burned diesel smell rates a mention, my guess it wont)…

          • McFlock 16.1.2.1.2

            wtf is “AMFRO”?

            I think you might want to check your acronym.

            • bad12 16.1.2.1.2.1

              True, it should read ANFRO, a mixture of ammonia nitrate and diesel…

              • McFlock

                No, it should have read “ANFO”. So that’s a red flag right there.

                Secondly, the fact that methane burns without odour (no idea ifthat’s true or not) does not mean that there are no other combustible hydrocarbons in an active coal mine. Any mixture of which might smell similar to burned diesel.

                Yeah, I’m not really convinced that you have enough dots strung together to go public and trample over graves with your theory just yet…

                • bad12

                  Wanker McFlock, who is trampling over anyone’s graves,(except you waving them round),

                  You too have obviously not read the evidence to the Royal Commission,

                  http://www.pikeriver.royalcommission.govt.nz/phase-3-hearing-transcripts

                  Knock yourself out…

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    How about you knock yourself out, fool? It’s your claim, why don’t you show us the evidence? You posted a busted link, btw. But the actual transcripts don’t back your fantasy up anyway, so I can understand why you won’t front.

                    • bad12

                      So tell us TRP seeing as you claim oracle status, you of course are LYING, you were never anywhere closer to the Pike River Royal Commission than your TeeVee,

                      You tell us all exactly what the South African electrician said in His evidence, you having poured over every word of it should be able to quote Him verbatim…

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “You tell us all exactly what the South African electrician said in His evidence,”

                      Yeah, why not. You’re not going to back up your lies, so I may as well inject some reality into the process.

                      One thing the electrician said when asked about the smell, and I quote, is it “isn’t really a diesel smell”.

                      The exact fucking opposite of what you claimed.

                      Still want to carry on bullshitting, Bad?

                    • bad12

                      TRP, next you will be telling me there was no evidence given about the smell of cordite,

                      Now who is the fucking Liar TRP, it was Commissioner Bell that used those words to Strydom the South African electrician now why do you not quote the whole of (17 through to 20) the exchange between Commissioner Bell and the South African electrician Strydom for the readers,

                      Probably because when the whole exchange is quoted you are shown to be a bullshit artist right…

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Sweet. ‘cordite’. You’ve finally found the real transcript, as opposed to the one in your head. But to be fair, I mistook a Q for an A, so, indeed it was the question from Bell from which I quoted. My bad, bad.

                      See, that’s how you admit a mistake. It ain’t hard.

                      Now how about you find the quotes from the two separate witnesses claiming “burned diesel”. If it’ll help, here’s your quote:

                      “there was a strong smell of burned diesel in the mine, i have smelled this after the use of AMFRO explosives in mines in South Africa”

                      Ah, I love the smell of bullshit in the morning. Smells like … burned diesel.

                    • bad12

                      Te Reo Putere(to the truth), that really takes the cake doesn’t it, You in a headlong rush to wave your shriveled dick around as the ‘winner’ deliberately carve three words off of a question asked by Commissioner Bell and then attribute these three words to the South African electrician Strydom,

                      Caught out with your grand little LIE you then try to pass this off as an innocent mistake,

                      That might have been believable if at the same time you had of fessed up to the fact that Commissioner Bell and the South African electrician Strydom were discussing at the time the smell of EXPLOSIVES in relation to what Strydom had smelled in the Pike river mine on the day in question,

                      The fact that you did not make this confession, obviously straight after having read the exchange between Bell and Strydom makes you the cynical LIAR of note in this discussion,

                      Why did you carve off these particular words in an attempt at spreading a LIE Te Reo Putere(to the truth)”isn’t a diesel smell” from that quote, why did you not publish the whole question from Bell to Strydom,

                      Here let me help you with that, just so readers can get a proper sense of what you are deliberately LYING about,

                      ”I mean to me Cordite isn’t a diesel smell, its more a smell to do with explosives, would–is that because of your South African experience with explosives or” unquote Commissioner Bell,

                      Now Te Reo Putere(to the truth), why do you not play the next verse in this song, how bout you publish the first six words of the answer that Strydom the South African electrician gave as an answer to Commissioner Bell….

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You’re a sad wee fuck, bad. The weird thing is that if you’d actually checked, you could have run your fantasy around cordite, but instead you chose to make up “burned diesel” and invent a quote to justify it. Bullshit and Diversion. It’s all in your head, son. Get help.

                    • bad12

                      So Te Reo Putere(to the truth), you now hide your LIES behind a gushing of infantile abuse,

                      Why cannot you answer the question Putere(to the truth), its simple enough even for you, after all ”you spent hours poring over the evidence”(fucking LIAR),

                      Here let me help you again, first with the question from commissioner Bell and second, just to make things clear for the readers, the first six words that Strydom the electrician gives as an answer to Bell’s question,(we will get around to why Bell is asking Strydom the question later, and later still we will get to the Mine Manager,(White’s), evidence of the heavy burned diesel smell),

                      Q, ”i mean cordite to me isn’t a diesel smell, its more a smell to do with Explosives, would — is that because of your South African experience with explosives or” unquote Commissioner Bell,

                      A, ”The smell is yes with explosives” unquote Strydom the South African electrician first into the mine after the original explosion,

                      Now why do you think Commissioner Bell is asking Strydom such questions Te Reo Putere(to the truth),

                  • McFlock

                    going off half cocked isn’t really going to achieve anything, is it, B?

                    You’re pissing around with a conspiracy theory that has no motive, no evidence (other than someone maybe comparing the smell to something else), and relies on previously incompetent mine management being able to competently kill 29 workers and get away with it.

                    Nice hobby you’ve got there.

                    • bad12

                      You really are dense aint you Mac, a tragic small brained chimp, the Mine Management were DELIBERATELY incompetent,

                      Despite safety concerns being repeatedly raised the Mine Management DELIBERATELY ignored such concerns,

                      There is a world of difference between an incompetent and a DELIBERATE incompetent…

                    • Rosie

                      “………….and relies on previously incompetent mine management being able to competently kill 29 workers and get away with it.”

                      (Shee -it. Didn’t mean to spark off an upset.)

                      Except to say with my ordinary person’s understanding of the events at Pike River, that it can only come down to the above. People died because their management were completely incompetent in their ability to be proactive in regard to H&S in such an inherently dangerous workplace, one worse than other mines.

                      Adding a personality like Whitall, arrogant, bullying and single minded, but charismatic enough to bluff the big guys, reduced the chances of the workers of even having a half a chance to protect themselves from the dangers they knew were so apparent.

                    • McFlock

                      Rosie: I agree. But there’s a world of difference between that and bad’s implication of a deliberately set explosion that killed 29 people (“AMFRO” plus insurance payout on a failing mine).

                    • bad12

                      Lolz relax Rosie, TRP has these little goes at me occasionally,(even to the extent that when i trot off to bed ‘it’ exercises ‘its’ overblown ego by declaring itself the winner),

                      Mac has long been the second string in the two string fiddle that TRP plays…

                    • McFlock

                      better a fiddle than a wind instrument.

                    • bad12

                      You and your mate TRP Mac do one hell of a lot of fiddling with each other…

                    • McFlock

                      another implied allegation with no evidence whatsoever.

                      Your batting rate is pretty low today.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Lovin’ the homophobia, bad. 🙄

                    • bad12

                      What homophobia is that Te Reo Putere(to the truth), i absolutely luuu-uuurve the idea that you two fiddle with each other ,

                      The very thought of the pair of you doing so has me grinning from ear to ear…

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      🙄

                    • McFlock

                      oh well, at least your fantasizing has moved on from “AMFRO”.

                    • fender

                      Bloody hell Bad12, you sure it’s only tobacco you’re growing there…

                      You may have the bones of a half decent fantasy there, but out of respect for the families I think you should remove any similarity to the pike river disaster.

                      And when you say “…..headlong rush to wave your shrivelled dick around” and “wanker McFlock…” along with all that other trash you normally save for Mr. Ure it’s a bit too late to then accuse others of “infantile abuse”.

                      Now we know you are working at achieving your target weight but it might be time to put down the pump phillip loaned you 🙂 and pick up a couple of toffee-pops or something..

                      p.s. look at McF and TRP as you would a friend who might not tell you what you want to hear, but has valuable advice all the same.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Plus, McFlock, there’s the fact that no one actually said “burned diesel”. Bad’s bullshitting.

  16. Another OCR raise. And this while Mark Carney BoE governor says that there is no space in the economic and political reality to raise it in England. No other country is raising their OCR rates. Are Kiwi’s being fleeced so John Key’s Money trading mates can have a bit of a flutter?

  17. freedom 18

    For those listening to and reporting on the latest employment statistics

    23 advertisements for the vacant position of a gumboot checker
    does not mean there are 23 vacant gumboot checker positions

    head – desk- repeat

  18. minarch 19

    Hmmmm sketchy old Bob Jones

    “I’ll tell you what gets me – the sight of a little girl. It always puts a smile on my face. I lust after them”

    Im sure you do Bob

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11294575

    • McFlock 19.1

      holy shit, talk about “out of context”.

      .
      5. What kind of father are you?

      Not a conventional one. I’m not going to watch them play football and go to school plays and that. I didn’t want my parents to do that, not that they ever did. Dad did watch me box once. Thankfully I won. No, I won’t tell you how many I’ve got. Millions of daughters. Frances is my oldest, she’s 47, and the others all end up going to live with her or the others, at some time. All the ex-wives and mothers get on with each other. One of them arrived today from Australia and the gardener is picking her up from the airport. I’ll tell you what gets me – the sight of a little girl. It always puts a smile on my face. I lust after them in the sense that I wish they were mine. Amelia, my 5-year-old, is in Malaysia right now with her mother and another daughter who is 18.

      • greywarbler 19.1.1

        Similar mr Jones, to the fascination of a little girl with a dolls house. You get all these things and people and put them in the rooms and pretend that they have a life and are part of your life. But you are always separate from them, unless you’re Alice in the Looking Glass of course and find bottles with drink me on them and change your persona. It would seem like a life-changing experience that. Though still not real.

  19. minarch 20

    The-Art-of-Deception

    Training for a new generation of online covert operations

    UK GCHQ powerpoint

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/02/24/art-deception-training-new-generation-online-covert-operations/

    Wonder if the fellas at the GCSB have similar ideas ?

  20. While Bibi unravels so does 9/11

  21. ianmac 22

    Given the anger aimed at the demise of the Herald, a column by Russell Brown on Public Address looks at the awful writings of Bernard Osman re the alleged disaster of Auckland’s finance. Andre Aessi pointed to a column by Dr Bassett. A dodgy anti left character to me but still he writes:
    “The Collapse of the New Zealand Herald 12/03/2009
    In case you hadn’t noticed it, the New Zealand Herald, the paper that used to claim to be the country’s premier paper of record, has abandoned this aspiration and seems intent on becoming a mere British-style tabloid. Its journalists are down to a skeleton of reporters; the sub editing (those who fit the headlines to the story below) seems to have fallen into the hands of deliberate troublemakers; and the editor, Tim Murphy, appears not to be in charge of what appears in his paper. ……
    and so on.
    http://www.michaelbassett.co.nz/articleview2.php?id=202&yh=2009&yl=2008

  22. greywarbler 23

    Chilling comment about NZ being unable to provide decent standards for its people.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10275393/Red-zoned-provinces

    Swaths of provincial New Zealand could be effectively “red zoned’ as local councils are forced to abandon their shrinking and ageing communities, a new report says.

    In a wide-ranging look at the country’s future, the Royal Society of New Zealand’s report, Our Futures, says difficult decisions are looming in some districts – singling out the Kapiti Coast and Horowhenua – where the population is disproportionately of retirement age, and deaths outpace births.

    These decisions could include making unpopular cuts to funding for roads, schools and medical services, and even abandoning some communities altogether, similar to the “red zoning” of parts of Christchurch after the 2011 earthquake, when whole suburbs were written off as economically unviable for habitation.

    The Otaki MP is responsible for Horowhenua apparently and that is Nathan Guy, previously a dairy farmer. It would be a fine example of the skewed economy that our money-making dairying rock-star economy, couldn’t support their own area’s population needs.

  23. feijoa 24

    I saw Phil Goff on Backbenches last night and I thought he came across extremely well
    Particularly when he was asked about rape culture in NZ (not an easy question), he just went for it, talking about the roastbusters and the closure of the Chch rape crisis centre.
    He was miles ahead of that annoying national woman Claudette Hauiti, who seemed to have left Gareth Hughes with a bemused expression wondering how he could be standing next to anyone so daft

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