Open mike 17/11/09

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 17th, 2009 - 34 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

mike

Topics of interest, announcements, general discussion. The usual rules apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Over to you…

34 comments on “Open mike 17/11/09”

  1. Bored 1

    A most perceptive comment from Prism yesterday “So many and particularly those of the right wing persuasion, talk and think about government as if it is a service centre for their own needs and wants”.

    Deserves some real debate.

    • Evenmorebored 1.1

      Prism could just as well have said

      “So many and particularly those of the left wing persuasion, talk and think about government as if it is a service centre for their own needs and wants’.

      and it would have been just as valid.

      • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1

        Now that really is boring, unless you can justify it.

        One example of this is how people talk about ‘taxpayers’ rights. This is silly talk; people don’t gain any rights as taxpayers (or at least they shouldn’t), they get rights as citizens.

        “Taxpayers” rights, for what they are worth, are limited to having their tax bill properly established and payment collected. They have a right to dispute the amount or what have you, but I can’t see how they get any rights beyond that by virtue of paying tax.

        It’s the same with “tax payers money”. That makes no more sense than “telecom customer’s money” being spent by telecom on whatever. It ceases to be the ‘taxpayers’ money when they hand it over to the Crown. After that it becomes the Crown’s money. All citizens a have a say in how that money is spent, collected, and accounted for through the political process. They gain that say by virtue of their citizenship, not their status as a ‘taxpayer’.

        • vto 1.1.1.1

          Yes, and therein lies one of the biggest problems Ps B.

          The larger number of one type of citizen can vote to impose their own desires (not even needs) on the smaller number of taxpayers. The tyranny of the majority.

          This was one of the big gripes with Clark and Cullen buying votes – or rather telling a larger number of one type of citizen that they can have x, y, z by taking it off the smaller number of taxpayers, eg the 39%ers.

          Shocking.

          Tyranny.

          Citizenship / Votership / Taxpayership should be, within obvious reason, reasonably closely aligned in the interests of long term stability.

          • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.1.1

            “long term stability’

            The system seems to be working ok so far v.

            But stability cuts both ways.

            Handing out extra rights to the elites, or doing other things to protect them from the masses, should the masses choose to use the ballot gain them, is also a recipe for instability. Pitchforks, tumbrils etc.

            As for buying votes, righties do it different. They promiss tax cuts funded out of spending/service cuts. The spending/service cuts never seem to eventuate however, so the tax cuts are actually just a shifting of taxation to the future.

            • vto 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes of course. It is a balancing act between the forces which should never be lost sight of lest all hell breaks loose.

              I just thought it was a bit too far off in one direction when you said that taxpaying and voting should never be linked. That is a recipe for disaster. They were of course linked completely in he past when only landowners and taxpayers could vote. That has morphed to todays situation – but that morphing seems to be slowly continuing where the link is becoming too broken.

              Rights and obligations must always go together lest all hell breaks loose (again). Rights to receive with no obligation to contribute will make a system, any system, fail. Similarly with being obliged to contribute without a commensurate right to receive.

              Anyway, its a blue blazer day here and the ocean beckons so must attend..

          • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.1.2

            “use the ballot agin them”

          • prism 1.1.1.1.3

            There certainly is a tyranny in making use of percentages all the time, they appear to be a good measuring device but rather they are a sliding scale. The intention when the 39% tax was that then you were earning a good whack. Where Cullen was slack, was in not putting earnings on an inflation index which would have ensured that people didn’t slide into higher tax bracket as soon as they got a short distance into the middle income bracket.

            No amount of clever replies by Cullen in the House could excuse that omission. I got sick of his smug little smile, father knows best look.

        • Noko 1.1.1.2

          All citizens a have a say in how that money is spent, collected, and accounted for through the political process.

          No they do. Especially 16 and 17 year olds, who (along with anyone of any age) pay GST, and work just as hard as the rest of the population. 17 year olds can volunteer for the military, and are criminally responsible. Why should they be allowed the vote, and the chance to influence policy (aside from writing a letter to Micheal Lhaws and getting abused for it)?

          • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.2.1

            Good points. I think the voting age should definately be looked at. But I don’t think the qualification for getting the franchise should be the ‘tax paying’ part.

      • prism 1.1.2

        Not really EMB. Usually the left wing want services provided for great numbers of people, so they are likely to be more democratic than right wingers who want to stay a small tight percentage at the top of the wealth pyramid, or are people who want to reach that group and to hell with everyone else.

  2. Ron 2

    Um, no, EMB – that’s not debate……..

  3. jcuknz 3

    I suggest that it is good debate, pointing out that people have universal aims irrespective of their politics when it comes to the nitty gritty … but you need to have two eyes to see the truth of the matter.

    • Ron 3.1

      Agreed. But my comment was made this morning and ought to have appeared straight after EMB’s first comment….which wasn’t

  4. Tigger 4

    Key is already softening us up for accepting the dead rats the US will demand for a ‘free trade’ deal.

    “You can’t rule out Pharmac – it has been on the list before. You can’t rule out issues of intellectual property and investment. All of those things will inevitably be part of the negotiations,” Key said.”

    • gitmo 4.1

      I think you can rule out PHARMAC being on the hit list Tigger.

      They are a model that is being increasingly used in other countries and most of the US based Pharma companies are dead or in their death throes in NZ, god knows what he’s on about in relation to IP – PHARMAC hacks prices on medicines via tender after they have lost IP protection not before.

      • Pascal's bookie 4.1.1

        “I think you can rule out PHARMAC being on the hit list Tigger.”

        Wanna bet? We may not give in, but you bet your arse the USA will have it on their list of things.

        Q) Why are the US pharma co’s dead or in their death throes in NZ?

        A) PHARMAC?

        ergo,

        Q) What will they want their government to be doing in FTA negotiations?

        • gitmo 4.1.1.1

          I think you over estimate the importance of NZ to US durg maunfacturers – we’re five tenths of fuck all.

          The primary reason that PHARMAC has been successful in NZ is the companies fighting each other and very cheap generics out of India and Europe.

          While I’m sure that it would be on the wish list of the americans in relation to an FTA I’m also pretty sure it’s something they could give up pretty easily whereas I seriously doubt we’re going to get open access to sell our dairy, meat, etc etc into the US anytime soon.

    • vto 4.2

      A free trade deal with the USA simply scares the living daylights out of me.

      Count me out.

  5. Tigger 5

    So when Key says I shouldn’t rule out Pharma, gitmo, I shouldn’t believe him?

    vto – agreed.

    • gitmo 5.1

      I think he’s just producing a soundbite nothing more nothing less.

      I’d also echo VTOs comments about an FTA with the US – best people review what the real benefits have been for Australia.

      Our big opportunity would be horticulture/agriculture and you can bet that there’ll be more hooks than in a Mitre 10 store.

      • Tigger 5.1.1

        US drug companies are notoriously venal. I’d say Pharmac is under threat big time.

        In other words, I am agreeing with Mr Key.

        Hell just froze over.

        • gitmo 5.1.1.1

          Nah the US drug companies have enough trouble with generic (off patent) suppliers in their own country to give a crap about NZ anymore – times have moved on.

          • Ron 5.1.1.1.1

            I don’t think it’s the companies that you have to worry about in the first instance. It’s the ideologues. They are quite capable of quietly inserting clauses that rule out sovereign decision making processes such as Pharmac simply becuase they (the politicians) see such processes as barriers to the God of Free Trade

            • prism 5.1.1.1.1.1

              And once we have free trade won’t all of us in this country have the opportunity to be rich and wealthy and rewarded for our work! I don’t think. Sweat shop work again, after people laboured years ago to get away from that. Worker fired because she shared her complimentary cola with a friend, being timed on the toilet, no decent lunchhour (people used to rustle out to buy some vegs for tea, make a phone call, attend to personal business in their lunch hour along with a quick bite, now your tea is hardly cool before you’re due back at work) Living and working conditions keep deteriorating with these empty politicians serving big business.

      • prism 5.1.2

        gitmo – Could you give the address for the review of USA free trade agreement that has been good for Australia. I have wondered how they were doing. It wasn’t touted as being useful to them, more the opposite.

  6. Tigger 6

    Ian Wishart at his blog “I love the way greens often use children as emotionally manipulative props in their various propaganda schemes.”

    Yes, only the greens do that sort of thing… Tosser.

    • outofbed 6.1

      I’m a Green and I don’t often use children as emotionally manipulative props in my various propaganda schemes.
      I don’t hit them either

    • prism 6.2

      Ian Wishart expresses ideas in his writing which can be summarised as follows –
      “emotionally manipulative props in [his] their various propaganda schemes.’

  7. Pascal's bookie 7

    Useless thought experiment for the day:

    Imagine everyone was asked what job, of all those available, they would like to do.

    Imagine that everyone capable of doing their preferred job would have the training for that job provided.

    Imagine that remuneration for jobs was determined by the supply of qualified candidates vs the number of jobs, so if there are lots of candidates for a few positions the wage would be lower than where there were few candidates for jobs with lots of vacancies.

    How much would people who clean up other people’s shit get compared to more interesting work?

  8. outofbed 8

    better then the shit wages they get now
    thats 4sure

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    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: Time for a New Deal: 25 years on
    In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Not impressed
    KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Solar beats coal
    As the climate crisis escalates, it is now obvious that we need to radically decarbonise our economy. The good news is that its looking easy and profitable for the energy sector. Wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, and now solar is too:The levellised cost of solar PV has fallen ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • A Step Too Far.
    A Crown Asset? For reasons relating to its own political convenience, the Crown pretends to believe that “No one owns the water.” To say otherwise would re-vivify the promises contained in the Treaty of Waitangi – most particularly those pertaining to the power of the chiefs and their proprietary rights ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Where Money Comes From
    Most people would say, no doubt, that they have a pretty good idea of what money is. They live with the reality of money every day. It is what is needed to buy the necessities of life and to maintain a decent standard of living. You get money, they would ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Banned by the Green Party leadership: Jill Abigail on women’s rights and trans rights
    The article below was an opinion piece that appeared in the Spring 2019 issue of Te Awa (the NZ Green Party’s newsletter) and on the Greens website.  In keeping with their policy of hostility to women defending women’s right to female-only spaces, Green bureaucrats have since removed the opinion piece.  ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago

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