Open mike 18/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 18th, 2022 - 107 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

107 comments on “Open mike 18/10/2022 ”

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  1. Ad 1
    18 October 2022 at 6:58 am

    I'm starting to wonder if this government could catch a break.

    • Sanctuary 1.1
      18 October 2022 at 7:29 am

      The media needs to take a hard look at themselves. Cut and pasting the press releases of unaccountable, dark funded lobby astroturf groups is disgraceful.

      Don't platform these people (Auckland Ratepayers Alliance, Groundswell, Taxpayers Union) until they are open and accountable about who funds them. And if you continue to do this in spite of them not disclosing that information then you are also part of the problem.

      • Stuart Munro 1.1.1
        18 October 2022 at 8:13 am

        It is a reflection of the decline of our parliaments, that MPs are no longer designing their own policies. They are in effect, like the idiot panels that front TV news, dysfunctional distractors with little or no relevance.

        The rise of externally designed policies is visible across the spectrum, and it is pernicious. This is where shit policies like gender activism, gun nut-jobbery, and tax wacko stuff is coming from. What then is the role of MPs? And, since they are incapable of thinking for themselves, what right do they have to sit in parliament?

      • weka 1.1.2
        18 October 2022 at 8:26 am

        thinking I'll do a post on the problems with Groundswell for Thurs. Have you got anything useful to read about the funding issue?

        • weka 1.1.2.1
          18 October 2022 at 8:28 am

          didn't know about the connections with the Taxpayer's Onion

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundswell_NZ#Links_to_the_NZ_Taxpayers'_Union

        • Radical Alternative 1.1.2.2
          18 October 2022 at 1:30 pm

          The fact that Groundswell only appears to exist as a commercial entity and not as a charity or incorporated society means that, unless they decide to release their returns, finding out who's funding them is pretty much impossible.

          https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/8256357/detail

          At the same time, the lack of transparency sort of goes against their claim to be a "grassroots volunteer-driven advocacy group" and not just a money-making exercise. Given that they ask for donations and try to sell merch, it's not hard to imagine that someone is making some decent money off of all this.

          If you can stomach it, I would also recommend going through the comments of their social media posts. Along with general confusion over the lack of information about Thursday's protest, there also seems to be increasing frustration about the leadership's desire to stay halfway respectable.

          Given that the organisation seems to be pretty decentralised however, I imagine there'll be quite a few who don't stick to the approved messages and start spouting some crazy bullshit about vaccines or whatever. If you can catalogue that and make a big deal of it, I imagine that would force the organisers to further alienate their more unhinged supporters.

          Essentially, the message would be that the Groundswell leadership is scamming their supporters while preventing them from talking about whatever fringe issue actually motivates them to show up on Thursday.

      • SPC 1.1.3
        18 October 2022 at 12:14 pm

        It was co-founded by Sir Keith Joseph, Alfred Sherman and Margaret Thatcher in 1974 to challenge the post war consensus of Keynesianism, and to champion economic liberalism in Britain.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Policy_Studies

  2. Sanctuary 2
    18 October 2022 at 8:04 am

    When bank economists and paid for lobbyists for the bosses talk about the need to control "core inflation" as code for holding down wage growth, remember it is all pure, unadulterated class self-interest. Rather than listening to our anaemic, feeble media spouting the talking points of the neoliberal consensus I strongly recommend a read of the latest IMF World Economic Outlook.

    The short version: true spirals of sustained wage and price increases are VERY rare.

    • Sabine 2.1
      18 October 2022 at 9:59 am

      It is interesting though how the low wages will 'stop' inflation, but not low rents, low energy costs and low food costs. And that is he crux of the matter. You can not earn enough ever to meet out of controll spiraling living costs and production costs.

      Eventually like in the Weimar Republic one will bring a wheelbarrow full of useless notes for a loaf of bread.

  3. Visubversa 3
    18 October 2022 at 8:43 am

    The most useful thing I have read so far today.

    https://voidifremoved.substack.com/p/identitarianism-is-not-left

    "Thus any system which removes the ability to name and recognise the female sex as a class is seen to serve the interest of patriarchal capitalism. If male and female cease to be labels that recognise a material reality, but instead identity markers that can be adopted by either sex, it becomes impossible for women to organise or be recognised as a sex class. This is what gender identity results in – a system of idealist individual liberalism, where material reality is subordinate to an individual’s claim of identity."

    • weka 3.1
      18 October 2022 at 8:49 am

      that quote is spot on.

      Exhibit A: the number of liberal men who think they get to tell women what feminism is.

      Exhibit B: women being kicked out of women's groups for wanting female only spaces.

      Exhibit C: lesbians being told that they cannot formally meet without male bodied people present.

      Exhibit D: males who self ID as women taking women's places in political parties.

      All of those impact on women's ability to organise as a class.

      • Sabine 3.1.1
        18 October 2022 at 10:23 am

        males who will self id as women in order to get jobs if these jobs are for 'minorities including women'.

        women who will be injured – badly injured even – by men who self id and play sports in womens teams.

        Leave the construct of 'class' or 'category' aside, the only place women can be in a place without be-penised people is now very much the kitchen at home.

        When i was a teenager one of my friends was a turkish girl called Hasina. I only ever sat in the kitchen or in the garden with the women, the living room was the place for the bepenised people, women only entered that space when no other males other then the ones of the family were in that space or when they were called to serve tea.

        When this self id / genderquatsch is over women in the western world will actually be back in 1595 and we shall re-debate if we are actually humans and thus have a right to human rights and self fulfilment on the base of these rights.

        What is a women? Any man who says so.

      • SPC 3.1.2
        18 October 2022 at 1:18 pm

        Since when have women ever organised as a class? Is not defence of woman as a sex, by adopting a class identity, just going to cause division?

        • weka 3.1.2.1
          18 October 2022 at 3:43 pm

          have you heard of feminism? What do you think that is if it isn't women organising around being women?

          Why do you think that women used to be denied the vote? How do you think that changed? What do the people, who were referred to as women, that were denied the vote and then granted it, have in common?

          Is not defence of woman as a sex, by adopting a class identity, just going to cause division?

          Do you object to any people organising around a collective then? Māori? Working class people?

          • SPC 3.1.2.1.1
            18 October 2022 at 4:09 pm

            Are you now arguing that being a female/women is not a biological sex category?

            Organising to achieve a group objective is not a synonym for having a common class identity.

            Put it this way, Sylvia P (socialist) and Christabel P Tory candidate) were part of the same group of suffragettes.

            • weka 3.1.2.1.1.1
              18 October 2022 at 6:21 pm

              No, I'm saying that biological sex is a class.

              What do you mean by class exactly? Are you using the term to mean socioeconomic? If you are, that would make more sense of your comments. The point isn't that women have a shared socioeconomic class (they don't).

              Organising to achieve a group objective is not a synonym for having a common class identity.

              I agree. Disabled people can organise collectively but aren't in this sense a class.

    • Anker 3.2
      18 October 2022 at 10:17 am

      That is a brilliant quote Visub.

      Sums it up really well

    • bwaghorn 3.3
      18 October 2022 at 10:36 am

      Oh for fuck sacks it's not fucking capitalism, it's a group of mentally/hormonally abnormal men with identity problems causing this,

      Capitalism is a tool used by society it's not a living being.

      • Anker 3.3.1
        18 October 2022 at 10:45 am

        Bwagon, you also make an excellent point.

        Also the clips from the Daily wire posted last week, out an Hospital in Nashville for their post of a Paedeatrician talking about how lucrative "top" and "botton" surgeries are, in part because they require a lot of follow up. far more lucrative than hormonal interventions.

        • JO 3.3.2.1
          18 October 2022 at 12:41 pm

          yes Through the centuries since some chaps translated the Word they thought the god they'd made in their own image had mysteriously said, and bequeathed unto us what later chaps referred to as The Old Testament, we have been labelled in the 'Christian' world view as virgin, martyr, mystic, witch, or all four at once depending on how stroppy or shrill some choose to think we are.

          Virginia Woolf put it best in A Room of One's Own:

          Women have served all these centuries as looking glasses possessing the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size.

      • Molly 3.3.3
        18 October 2022 at 11:30 am

        "Oh for fuck sacks it's not fucking capitalism, it's a group of mentally/hormonally abnormal men with identity problems causing this,"

        While you are not off the mark, I don't think that answer provides the full picture in terms of HOW legislative change and institutional capture has occurred so swiftly.

        There's quite a lot on strategy here:

        The document that reveals the remarkable tactics of trans lobbyists – James Kirkup, The Spectator 2019

        And Jennifer Bilek's research on the funding apparatus:

        The Billionaire Family Pushing Synthetic Sex Identities (SSI)

      • weka 3.3.4
        18 October 2022 at 12:00 pm

        read it again,

        … is seen to serve the interest of patriarchal capitalism

        It's saying that it serves the form of capitalism that controls women. Which it does.

        • Sabine 3.3.4.1
          18 October 2022 at 12:06 pm

          We don't have many products left for 'growth' potential. Mining the human body for body parts, body modification, reproduction and its feeding ability and the providing of sex services is the last product. The rest we have already fucked over to the point of no return.

          We are the product. Men – at least the poor sobs that still identify as male – too, and sooner rather then later will they understand that.

          Religion, Patriarchy, Capitalism, Paternalism, it is all the same, The oppression by people in power and their enablers – who present the few but who ruin the lives of the many, women, children, and in the end men. Our new oppressors? The kind people of pray to the god of Gender Ideology and lucrative body modification and the selling of body parts and life human beings.

          • SPC 3.3.4.1.1
            18 October 2022 at 12:29 pm

            I would have thought reproduction rates have been much higher historically and prostitution has not been called one of the oldest "professions" for nothing.

            The major growth area is in DNA genetic medicine to improve health outcomes and provide fertility assistance to women who delay childbirth.

            • Sabine 3.3.4.1.1.1
              18 October 2022 at 2:41 pm

              nah, the major growth area is in creating a class of birthing bodies that will provide life human beings on order – genetically altered or not – to same 'sex' couples who are 'infertile' due to their lifestyle choices, afterall they could be same gender orientated with a partner who has the needed functions, next to the sterile and castrated caste of post op trans and 'puperty blocked' transpeople who can no longer reproduce, the class of single rich parents who would like to have a child, the class of opposite sex orientated that can't be bothered doing the job of child birth.

              If you want to force the people who are born with the ability to gestate and birth life human beings you remove their ability to work other then either sex work, domestic support animal (aka owned property of a 'husband/wife :)", or birther.

              Remove access to birthing controls such as the pill, IUD etc and chances are that they will either birth every time they get inseminated either by a semensquirter or artificially or they miscarry.

              A good 'birther' such as Ma Duggar for example can provide you with 19 live human beings over her fertile years. See Quiverfull for more information on how to keep the breeder breeding.

              At a few thousand dollar for the birthing agency per tick you are suddenly talking big money. And your investment is cheap, like a puppy breeder you just have to keep these sentient incubators alive.

        • bwaghorn 3.3.4.2
          18 October 2022 at 8:19 pm

          No it's left wing people that cause this shit, I bet any country with out a strong left leaning sector of its society would just just slap these confused males down.

          • weka 3.3.4.2.1
            18 October 2022 at 8:47 pm

            I think you are confusing left with liberal. Plenty of left wing people and analysis that is critical of gender identity ideology.

            In the UK, where the major battle is being fought, the Tories were going to pass self-ID legislation, which would remove major power from women, but it was women that stood up and fought against it (and have won thus far on that particular legislation). Liz Truss was pro-gender ideology, although she seems to be shifting her position as she realises that in the UK this is a political nightmare.

            But the point remains, the quote is saying that the ideology serves the patriarchal system. This matters because liberals like to think they're being progressive on gender but they're being regressive.

            I'll also point out that the problem isn't males confused about their sex, it's the ideology that is pushing legislative and policy changes and the huge amount of power accruing behind that. Big pharma aren't left wing, nor the tech giants.

    • SPC 3.4
      18 October 2022 at 1:12 pm

      Calling the female sex a class to make it part of some left wing cause vs capitalism is nonsense.

      • Sabine 3.4.1
        18 October 2022 at 3:05 pm

        how to use class as a word when not applying either party belonging or gender ideology.

        Class:

        1. : a group sharing the same economic or social status : "the working class"

        i.e woman worker vs male worker

        2. : social rank especially : high social rank the classes as opposed to the masses

        i.e. female as opposed to male

        3. : a data type in object-oriented programming that consists of a group of objects (see OBJECT entry 1 sense 6a) with the same properties and behaviors and that can be arranged in a hierarchy with other such data types

        i.e female cancers vs male cancers

        all based on the differences between the humans beings that are of material reality rather then socially constructed stereotypes that anyone irrespective of their biological sex can live.

        But then i hear there are people that don't know what a male or a female is unless they inspects the genitals of the people they meet or unless they are provided a daily update on pronouns, and then they would not be able to differentiate between biological genitials and surgically crafted ones. These might be the people who have never in their life seen, met or spoken to a 'woman' and thus can't define them, class them and provide appropriate language so that this class of people can refer to themselves without upsetting males who are not and will not ever be part of that class of people.

        Unmentionable ones is a good term for that class of people would you not agree?

        • SPC 3.4.1.1
          18 October 2022 at 3:23 pm

          Dividing class groups, into male and female, does not make them male and female class groups.

          • weka 3.4.1.1.1
            18 October 2022 at 3:41 pm

            A left wing analysis is that there are three classes – socioeconomic, race/ethnicity, and biological sex – that capitalism exploits to further the aims of capitalism. Women are impacted in some very specific ways because of their biological sex.

            maybe you could explain what you think because I can't make sense of your comments. Are you saying that you don't believe there is a such a things a sex class?

            • SPC 3.4.1.1.1.1
              18 October 2022 at 3:59 pm

              Are you now arguing that being a female/women is not a biological sex category?

              Class analysis related to capitalism is in the economic sphere. When it extends beyond that it reaches into the realm of colonialism/imperialism/patriarchy.

              • Molly …
                18 October 2022 at 5:01 pm

                "Are you now arguing that being a female/women is not a biological sex category?"

                Hold onto your hat, SPC – because apparently this will come as a surprise:

                Women are part of (adult) a biological sex category AND

                a class for political analysis AND

                representative of a protected characteristic in Human Rights Act (1993).

                Many other aspects affect women/females as a distinct class.

                Why are you so resistant to the use of the word "class" to describe this group?

                • SPC …
                  18 October 2022 at 5:48 pm

                  Women are only specifically included by biological sex in the HRA.

                  They may also be categorised by marital status, race, age and political creed, but none is specifically related to being female. And not one of those is a class. In fact no economic class is mentioned.

                  Civil rights, rights to private property ownership and employment/labour rights are covered otherwise.

                  • weka …
                    18 October 2022 at 6:23 pm

                    we're not talking economic class.

                  • weka …
                    18 October 2022 at 6:31 pm

                    So, little summary of what I said at the beginning of the panel on Female Class Politics which we gave at FiLiA. Structural oppression is a class based relation between a dominant class and a subjugated class through which the dominant class extracts labour, or access to bodies, or both, from the subjugated class. That is, structural oppression is a class based relation of material extraction, through which the dominant class profits from the oppression of the subjugated class.

                    …

                    There are three main axes of structural oppression – socio-economic class, sex and race. One of the things that it most notable about wokeist bullshit is the way they spend most of their time focussed on alleged oppression which are not in fact oppressions, and the fact that they have pretty much fuck all to say about extractive class based relations, especially with respect to socio-economic class, and of course sex, which they point blank deny is an axis of material extraction.

                    Denying recognition to axes of material class based extraction while making a big song and dance about non class based discrimination, is a really great cover for large exploitative institutions that want to carry on extracting, while covering themselves in symbols of justice that have no impact on their bottom line.

                    Philosopher and feminist Jane Clare Jones, quoted in this post,

                    .https://thestandard.org.nz/class-oppression-and-discrimination/

                    • SPC …
                      18 October 2022 at 7:26 pm

                      There are only three axes of oppression, sex, race and class.

                      Jane Clare Jones did not confuse sex and race with class – she referred to the three as separate.

                    • weka []
                      18 October 2022 at 8:36 pm

                      mate, you’re the only one confusing them. I’ve made it very clear there are three classes: sex, race, socioeconomic. You appear to be insisting that economic class is the only class, but you haven’t presented any argument for why you think that is so.

                  • Sabine …
                    18 October 2022 at 7:25 pm

                    You really don't like the idea that women look at each other, recognize each other as the same, with the same issues, due to the same reasons, and thus start organizing as a class of people for people such as themselves.

                    Oh boy.

                    • SPC …
                      18 October 2022 at 7:34 pm

                      There are two distinct definitions of the word class.

                      Confusing one, which refers to the categorisation of difference with the other, socio and economic class, with the other is poor use of language.

                      PS the effort to impugn those who do not agree with you, speaks to breeding/class/identity politics at its lower level.

                    • roblogic …
                      18 October 2022 at 11:01 pm

                      "category" is probably a less confusing term than "class" which has several meanings — in left wing discourse it usually refers to socioeconomic class

          • Sabine 3.4.1.1.2
            18 October 2022 at 4:49 pm

            actually yes it does.

            that is the point of having classes of people.

            like white and black people

            like tall and short people

            like fat and skinny people

            like educated and not educated people

            like rich and poor people

            like homeowning people and homeless people

            that is exactly what you do when you want to speak of one group of people and you want to make sure that other people understand whom you are talking about.

            and we know full well what makes one male and what makes one not male.

            And the fact that people are telling woman what women are or are not is simply pointing out the old adage of men being what they are or want to be vs men telling women what they can or can not be.

            • SPC 3.4.1.1.2.1
              18 October 2022 at 5:41 pm

              Conflation of distinctive category with class.

              • Sabine …
                18 October 2022 at 7:18 pm

                No just different examples of classes of people defined by their characteristics. I.e. black women and white women. Two different sets or classes of ethnicity. Both are part of the class 'adult human female'. Then they may be African and German. New classes, this time defined by nationality. One may be lutheran the other may be catholic. New classes, this time defined by creed. So here we have the class of human being that these two women belong too – adult human female. Then all the other classes that further defines who these two particular women are. The first class is rooted in biology and nature, i.e. material reality, and the rest of classes that categorize these adult human females are the social constructs of ethnicity, nationality and religion.

                And men are still not part of that first class – adult human female, but they may share ethnicity, religion or nationality or job descriptions, or belong to the house owning class or the homeless class.

                But you do you.

  4. Adrian Thornton 4
    18 October 2022 at 9:26 am

    MSM Propaganda Alert!!!

    BBC at it again…in this BBC article on the Venezuelan migration problem, the economic fall out as a direct result of US imposed sanctions ( a benign term for a weapon of war) is not mentioned or referenced once as a cause for the population flight…the way MSM is circling the wagons in ever tighter postures in it's defense of the Capitalist status quo is quite alarming….there is misinformation on the net alright, the most damaging of it to Left Progressive politics, stems directly from once trusted left leaning news sources…so make sure you have your bullshit detectors on high alert when reading anything from BBC, The Guardian, Washington Post, NYT…or listening to RNZ

    Economic Sanctions as Collective Punishment: The Case of Venezuela

    "The sanctions reduced the public’s caloric intake, increased disease and mortality (for both adults and infants), and displaced millions of Venezuelans who fled the country as a result of the worsening economic depression and hyperinflation. They exacerbated Venezuela’s economic crisis and made it nearly impossible to stabilize the economy, contributing further to excess deaths. All of these impacts disproportionately harmed the poorest and most vulnerable Venezuelans."

  5. arkie 5
    18 October 2022 at 9:45 am

    UK Police intimidating climate activists:

    A documentary filmmaker was arrested at a Just Stop Oil protest in Shoreditch on Saturday, 14 October.

    Footage shows Rich Felgate being arrested on Great Eastern Street as activists sat in the road in a protest to demand the government “halts all new oil and gas licenses and consents.”

    Mr Felgate had filmed group members throwing soup onto Vincent Van Gogh’s Sunflowers painting on Friday.

    A Metropolitan Police spokesperson said: “A man was arrested on 15 October on suspicion of criminal damage outside New Scotland the previous day. The man was released without further action later that day.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/shoreditch-just-stop-oil-arrest-b2204120.html

    There will never be an 'acceptable' form of protest against the status quo, there are always reasons 'respectable society' can use to denigrate or demean the actions of activists.

    On Earth Day earlier this year, Wynn Phillips followed a buddhist protest tradition and the story was largely buried. Climate scientists around the world are engaging in activism, and today activists have unfurled a banner over Mt Vic tunnel:

    Two protesters have abseiled down the Hataitai side of the Mt Victoria Tunnel in Wellington and hung a sign saying 'Restore passenger rail'.

    …

    A spokesperson for the Restore Passenger Rail group earlier said police were on site and traffic was still going through the tunnel.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476866/wellington-s-mount-victoria-tunnel-closed-as-climate-activist-group-lowers-banner-over-road

    This will no doubt also be condemned across traditional and social media.

    • roy cartland 5.1
      18 October 2022 at 10:18 am

      For those who are aghast at soup being thrown at a glass-covered painting, saying "leave art out of it, why don't they protest something relevant…"

      Well here it is. And as predicted, people are still aghast. Maybe they should just protest out fot he way, where no one can hear?

      • Sabine 5.1.1
        18 October 2022 at 10:53 am

        Maybe they should apply to be bus drivers in the meantime until we in the future will get a government for whom public service is not just a vote getter every other year but something to commit to and invest in.

        Wellington is cutting down on its bus services as they don't have enough drivers.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476617/driver-shortages-put-breaks-on-nearly-70-wellington-bus-services

        • Anker 5.1.1.1
          18 October 2022 at 1:35 pm

          Hear, hear Sabine. Yes rather than activities that serve no purpose (likely lead to higher emissions by blocking roads) and generally get up peoples noses creating potential for a back lash, go out and be part of the solution. Drive a bus. Maybe they need to attract drivers, by advertising it as Green occupation helping safe the plannet.

          • Sabine 5.1.1.1.1
            18 October 2022 at 2:34 pm

            Actually being a bus driver was something to aspire too in my childhood, even though in Germany at the time it was male dominated. But it was a job with good pay, decent benefits and essentially future proof.

            I can see the slogan already: Choose a Green Job, Be a bus driver in your community!!

            • arkie 5.1.1.1.1.1
              18 October 2022 at 3:01 pm

              The Greens are trying to do such a thing, a petition from 2021:

              “Public transport is an essential service, and it makes sense for it to be publicly owned,” says Green Party spokesperson for Transport Hon Julie Anne Genter.

              “Good public transport is crucial for reducing climate pollution, connecting our communities and making our cities more liveable.

              “But there are legislative barriers in the way of public ownership of our public transport, which means councils must contract out to private companies that prioritise profit over all else. We’ve already seen the fallout from private, overseas ownership of the Wellington bus network by Australian private equity firm Next Capital – with many cancelled services.

              “Drivers have been fighting for better work and pay conditions for far too long, and this dispute stems from our public transport being run in a for-profit model.

              “We support the bus drivers in their pursuit for better work and pay conditions, and this should be the norm. The needs of our community – for reliable bus services and fair pay for our drivers – should come before the profits of private equity firms.”

              https://www.greens.org.nz/petition_for_publicly_owned_public_transport

              • Sabine …
                18 October 2022 at 7:37 pm

                Then the Greens should encourage these young people to apply for these jobs, help them create a union and raise a stink.

                But maybe absail down a tunnel or glue yourself to a raod while Joe and Jane 6 pack try to get to work will also do the trick to promote public transport. One pissed of commuter at a time.

          • SPC 5.1.1.1.2
            18 October 2022 at 2:51 pm

            There is a current endeavour to create an industry award that takes bus drivers into the category that makes them eligible for skilled worker migrant.

            • Craig H 5.1.1.1.2.1
              18 October 2022 at 4:58 pm

              That's currently $40.50/hr = $84,240 p.a. Hopefully that would attract people into the industry as a reasonable living.

              • arkie …
                18 October 2022 at 5:15 pm

                Meanwhile, here’s a current NZ Bus driver advert:

                • We offer $27.80 per hour
                • You’ll be able to work any 5 out of 7 days on a variety of shifts (this includes weekends, early and late shifts and broken/split shifts). Your roster is provided 3-6 weeks in advance.

                https://careers.nzbus.co.nz/jobdetails?ajid=vay18

                • Molly …
                  18 October 2022 at 6:19 pm

                  Thanks, arkie.

                  That puts the focus clearly on why there is a recruitment and retention problem.

                  • arkie …
                    18 October 2022 at 6:33 pm

                    Yes, and that current payrate is what the bus drivers and the Tramways Union were able to get through their strike action last year; this was the pay rate prior to the industrial action, and the offer made by NZ Bus / Next Capital:

                    The base pay rate would rise from the current base rate of $19.29 an hour plus allowances to $22.10 an hour, or $24 for drivers with more than six months’ service, according to the documents.

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/125150453/wellington-bus-drivers-offered-as-much-as-10000-each-to-accept-weakened-collective-agreement

                    This is what private ownership of public services gets us, poor delivery, poor employment conditions, increasing user charges and any profits are pocketed.

                    • Sabine …
                      18 October 2022 at 7:43 pm

                      so that is 1112 NZD per week before tax, plus 3% min Kiwi saver contribution, plus sick pay, plus holiday pay.

                      5 days a week is a standard week, many people work Sats and Sund, unless one is an office drone.

                      oh look they provide these things

                      Training:

                      • Receive fully paid training + we'll pay for your Class 2 licence!
                      • Obtain your Class 2 Full licence in our in-house training school.
                      • Support to obtain your Passenger Endorsement.
                      • We'll teach you how to drive a bus, show you the bus routes and all other bus operator procedures- you'll be an expert driver in no time!

                      There's plenty of perks working for NZ Bus- including discounted health insurance, free flu shots, access to an employee assistance programme, fully provided uniform, and more! We've got great facilities to enjoy during your breaks- we've got pool tables, computers with internet access & plenty of tea and coffee!

                      Please note that due to training investment, a bonded employment period will apply.

                      This is actually not a bad job. But then, maybe any work where some actually have to show up is a badly paid exploitation job.

                      WE just want passenger trains and public transport, what we don't want is to do these jobs.

                      now the problem with say 800 NZD per week not being enough to pay rent, bills and food is an issue of not regulating the rental market, the food market, and the energy market. But surely someday we shall have a government that will do such things. Surely, any day now. ideally one that has a full majority so they could push through that progressive legislation without then need to compromise. Any day now. right?

                • Craig H …
                  19 October 2022 at 4:04 pm

                  https://www.immigration.govt.nz/opsmanual/#72993.htm – Appendices at the end, and the list of occupations as exceptions is Appendix 7. Train driver and tour guide are on that list, but bus driver isn't, so the current SMC pathway requires 1.5 x median wage (which as the minister notes in his letter, has not been subject to recent adjustments for work visas – for SMC, it was last set at $27.00/hr).

                  Bus drivers getting AEWVs will have to be paid median wage for immigration which is currently $27.76/hr but going up to $29.66/hr in February, but won't have a pathway to residence at that pay rate unless they are added to the Green List.

        • arkie 5.1.1.2
          18 October 2022 at 3:04 pm

          The Australian private equity company that owns Wellington buses locked their drivers out because that were demanding improved pay and conditions.

          NZ Bus owner Next Capital will not rule out a second lockout if drivers reject a proposed new pay deal.

          The company is making a final plea to Wellington bus drivers to take the deal on the table ahead of a crucial union vote on Thursday.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/125175905/nz-bus-owner-wont-rule-out-another-lockout-if-drivers-reject-pay-offer

          • Visubversa 5.1.1.2.1
            18 October 2022 at 3:50 pm

            NZBus in Auckland regularly puts buses out on the road with malfunctioning or non functioning air conditioning. They were doing it before Covid and they are still doing it. It is unsafe and uncomfortable enough for the passengers, but must be much worse for the drivers. Auckland Transport refuses to answer the simple question as to whether this is permitted in the contract they have with NZBus.

            One of the many reasons why AT deserves everything Wayne Brown hands out to them.

            PS I certainly did not vote for him!

    • Adrian Thornton 5.2
      18 October 2022 at 10:49 am

      “This will no doubt also be condemned across traditional and social media”….yep, that is for sure..MSM including pretty much all traditional ‘Left’ leaning media have proved themselves to be nothing more than ultra-aggressive guard dogs of the Capitalist status quo…the planet and the people who want to defend the planet will find no serious allies there…

      …and don’t be fooled by the occasional inclusion on those platforms of serious Climate Activists at the present moment. …when and if there is ever a real ground swell to make the type of deep rooted social and infrastructural changes needed to deal with Climate Change, you can be absolutely sure that the undermining of that project will come from The Guardian, BBC, Washington Post etc as much as from Right wing media.

  6. Poission 6
    18 October 2022 at 11:02 am

    Inflation print just released.Come in at 7.2,mostly driven by non tradeable inflation such as council rents and housing costs,utilities etc.

    Non tradeable inflation is the highest since the series began,and starting to reflect fiscal policies,with services funding to the non productive sector,

    https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/annual-inflation-at-7-2-percent/

    With a .75 rise in the OCR baked in by markets,and looking at 5.25 ocr next year,the borrowing costs are now becoming a large burden,with Fiscal stimulus fueling inflation not growth.

    • SPC 6.1
      18 October 2022 at 12:23 pm

      Building costs (gib board ?)

      the plant is still on track to be producing saleable plasterboard in May 2023 and be fully commissioned by September 2023.

      There is still some risk around those dates – risk mitigation poses a daily challenge for our engineering team and equipment manufacturers – but at the moment we’re still tracking to start commissioning the first plasterboard late March, early April, with the first of the saleable board (10mm GIB® Standard and 13mm GIB® Standard) coming off the production line in May. It will take another good eight weeks from there to get all the other products, such as our GIB Braceline® and GIB Fyreline®, fully commissioned, BRANZ appraised and off the production line.

      https://www.gib.co.nz/gib-news/new-tauranga-facility/new-tauriko-facility-building-for-a-generation-of-change/

      diesel

      A substitute for gas in power generation and also used for heating homes in Europe – will rise further with the northern winter

      rents

      surely a freeze asap ….

      • Poission 6.1.1
        18 October 2022 at 12:39 pm

        the NZ$ depreciated in the last 12 months (19.5%) significantly due to the balance of trade problems,and high current account deficit.

        There has been little if any fiscal spending to ensure enhanced productivity,to remove cost out of the economy.

        Labours policies are essentially inverse to the Truss catastrophe,with large spending on the non productive sector,mostly by way of wages and not efficiency.With a construction industry over extended you do not keep fiscally stimulating by borrowed money,in an overheated economy,with high debt.

        • SPC 6.1.1.1
          18 October 2022 at 1:02 pm

          The return of tourism and student inflows will help the accounts.

          Any solution that blocks fair pay and industry awards suppress wages and raise unemployment will just increase inequality.

          1. the current building of a new gib board plant is a supply solution (it not being in time is a market failure).

          2. diesel cost increases is a global matter.

          3. a housing shortage is not solved without supply, and nor is it solved by raising demand for housing via high levels of immigration. Preventing landlords from exploiting a market shortage via a rent freeze is prudent.

          4. our public debt is not high compared to other OECD nations and nor is the proportion of government spending to GDP.

          Care to identify the "fiscal" spending that removes cost from the economy?

          • Poission 6.1.1.1.1
            18 October 2022 at 6:19 pm

            Tourism is arbitrary as kiwis also travel overseas spending local savings. Students also remove accommodation opportunities.

            Resource consents are around 5% of the project cost,delays adding to holding costs of which gib is a small part.The biggest problem is an overextended construction sector,which is now performing less efficient due to overpricing (highest costs in the OECD),

            The housing shortage has been forced by large scale immigration and changes to the rental inventory due to government policy, meaning investors have moved to the short end of the market (airbnb etc) large scale demolition of housing stock to provide more expensive infill housing etc.

            Our public debt measured by our ability to pay is very high with the highest current account deficit in the g10 currency countries,high interest rates,Robertsons gamble on changing the measurement for government debt,did not influence the markets (read lenders) and was based on revaluations of property stock (which are moving south faster then the expected tenure of a labour list MP)

        • Craig H 6.1.1.2
          18 October 2022 at 5:00 pm

          How much of the drop in NZ$ is caused by the US$ increasing due to their interest rates increasing to bring inflation under control?

          • Poission 6.1.1.2.1
            18 October 2022 at 5:45 pm

            Globally most currencies have depreciated against the us$ (not as much as NZ) which has also depreciated against most other currencies ,where the aus has depreciated by 15% and has lower interest rates.

            We are now exposed to worse interest rates then the UK with the NZ margin .50 points across rates.

  7. weston 7
    18 October 2022 at 1:23 pm



    Had to laugh Liz Truss's approval rating is now _ 61% !!

  8. Anker 8
    18 October 2022 at 1:32 pm

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2209/S00051/time-for-a-public-inquiry-into-cnz.htm

    So Jacinda Ardern, via Chris Hipkins have rescued Creative NZ by providing funding for the Shakespeares schools festival via education.

    This article written before the bail out is excellent in its criticism of Creative NZ and its call for an enquiry that goes deeper than the Shakespeare issue.

    The CEO of CNZ earns over three hundred thousand a year. And 28 of the 85 staff earn over $100,00. They took the advice of someone on the cancellation of the Shakespeare festival…………..So, why do such highly paid bureacratics need to take advice on who they fund? Surely that is what they exist to do. Why did Creative NZ listen to such dumb and embarrasing advice? (Shakespeare ..the canon of imperialism. Um England was not an imperial nation when Shakespeare was writing). And the advice also said Shakespeare didn't fit with the decolonisation of NZ. Who the f..k said the public service are to de colonise NZ and what does that even mean? (Colonisation was also not around in Shakespeares time, so the advice is not only bloody ignorant, its frankly embarrasing).

    If over paid bureacrats have to rely on advice to make funding decisions and take utterly ridiculous advice, that is politically based, not arts based, then yes at the very least Creative NZ needs to be reviewed. And there needs to be a review into what is happening in our public service, that it is thought that their role is to "de colonise" NZ.

    • Mac1 8.1
      18 October 2022 at 2:43 pm

      Anker, briefly. You are correct about a foolish decision by Creative NZ.

      However, regarding " Um England was not an imperial nation when Shakespeare was writing)."

      You're not Irish, are you? As my dear old irish nun once told me, “Mac1, there are some things we do not joke abour!”

      700 years of colonisation did include the Elizabethan and early Stuart era when Shakespeare wrote his magnificent plays and poems.

      https://www.historyofengland.net/british-empire/ireland-the-first-colony

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ireland-has-yet-to-come-to-terms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland_(1536–1691)

      All three sources confirm the imperial England that you want to deny.

      • Belladonna 8.1.1
        18 October 2022 at 2:55 pm

        There doesn't, however, seem to be any significant belief that Shakespeare shouldn't be studied in Ireland, because of past imperialism/colonization/invasion (whatever you want to call it)

        https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-49031179

        The Irish academic Edel Semple runs the blog Shakespeare in Ireland. She says British people are often surprised at how popular he is with the Irish.

        "I can understand people supposing that with independence in the 1920s there might have been a feeling he was too British. But there's no evidence for that happening. He seems always to have had a cultural free pass.

        It seems as though the Irish, at least, can separate great works of literature from the cultural environment which produced them. Something for Creative NZ to aspire to.

      • joe90 8.1.2
        18 October 2022 at 3:13 pm

        He did his bit fueling anti-Irish bigotry, too.

        .

        In the same vein there is a cheap Irish joke in The Comedy of Errors, where a servant named Dromio tells his master about a kitchen wench who is so fat that "she is spherical, like a globe", and that he "could find out countries in her". He finds Spain in her hot breath, Scotland in the barren palm of her hand, and England in the chalky cliffs of her forehead.

        When Antipholus asks, “In what part of her body stands Ireland?” Dromio replies, “in her buttocks: I found it out by the bogs.” This Irish slur still gets a big laugh – and, unlike the other ethnic jokes, it is rarely cut in production.

        Counting up the Irish

        Shakespeare mentions “Ireland” 31 times in his works, or 32 if we include a slip of the pen to which I will return shortly. The adjective “Irish” is spoken 10 times, and the word “Irishman” appears twice.

        What I find especially striking about these allusions to the “Irish” or “Irishman” is how concentrated they all are within a very narrow band of time, one that stretched from about 1596 to 1599.

        https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/stage/what-ish-my-nation-shakespeare-s-irish-connections-1.2619173

        • Mac1 8.1.2.1
          18 October 2022 at 7:01 pm

          Shakespeare reflected the bigotry of his times- his anti-Jewish stance, his view of the Scots, Irish, Welsh. Remember his was a time when people were martyred, wars were fought for religion, empire, resources- as usual.

          Have we changed? How much? Look at the bigotry about today. Still there. Better? I hope so.

          Belladonna at 8.1.1 makes a very good final point. We do have to consider the 'tempora", the "mores" of the culture whence art came.

          Just as we will be judged in the future for our cultural beliefs from transubstantiation to transgenderism.

      • Anker 8.1.3
        18 October 2022 at 4:43 pm

        Fair call Mac1. I misquoted Chris Trotter in his excellent article in which he said, England had no empire in Shakespeares time.

        Happy to stand corrected.

        https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/118041/only-excluding-cultural-achievements-past-arts-council-suggests-can-any

        • Mac1 8.1.3.1
          18 October 2022 at 7:57 pm

          At the end of Trotter's article. he speaks of the essential humanity of Shakespeare's work which transcended time, place, country, even the imaginary and the fey.

          From Greece, Italy, England, Scotland, France. from ancient times to the near present, from Fools to the foolish, from kings to paupers, across men and women and the fairy realm, from songs and poems to bawdy humour, Shakespeare's celebration and exposing of human greatness and weakness was sublime.

          My daughter won a Sheila Winn trip to England which she did not take up. She is still involved in drama thirty years later, now as a director.

          Her father played the Fool, Touchstone, singing his song "There was a Lover and his Lass" as a gospel-belter blues and delivered such lines of wisdom as this,"The more pity that fools may not speak wisely what wise men do foolishly."

          Shakespeare was updated in Sheila Winn. My daughter won her prize playing Lady MacBeth who had a female husband, and her friend won best supporting actor as King Duncan, without saying a word.

          Sheila Winn pushed boundaries, inspired careers, entertained and taught us all, as only the best art can.

          Shakespeare gave us beautiful language, sayings, drama, humour, wisdom and sometimes a view of the world where the Fools were wise and the rest unaware of their shortcomings.

          Shakespeare could well have said, had he spoken Māori, "Mā te wahine, mā te whenua, ka ngaro te tangata."

          Kia ora mai tatou.

      • Sabine 8.1.4
        18 October 2022 at 7:49 pm

        That however is something that Ireland needs to sort with England. White people oppressing white people.

        I doubt that whomever decided that Shakespeare needed to be 'decolonised' had Ireland in mind when they thought about 'decolonising'.

    • Incognito 8.2
      18 October 2022 at 5:38 pm

      I posted this only 3 days ago, but of course you missed it:

      Your application is assessed by external peer assessors using the following criteria. [my italics]

      https://creativenz.govt.nz/Funds-and-opportunities/Find-opportunities/Arts-Grants#how-applications-are-assessed

      Many Public Good funders use this system of independent peer review to review grant funding applications in contestable funding rounds just as Creative NZ, which uses two assessors to review each application. I have never heard of a CEO of a funding agency being directly involved in the funding decisions of specific funding committees in their agency other than possibly signing off on them, which is or should be a mere formality.

      Here’s a very good article on [the lack of] arts funding in NZ that also offers you some insights into the funding process:

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/130193686/the-fuss-over-shakespeare-is-a-distraction-from-the-real-scandal-of-arts-funding

      • Anker 8.2.1
        18 October 2022 at 7:02 pm

        What do you mean Incognito "but of course you missed it". I probably did miss it. So what, there's a lot I miss on the Standard.

        ARe the two assessors part of the 85 public servants employed at Creative NZ? If not who appointed the assessors? They are ideologically compromised and made a ignorant decision which has lead to a public outcry about both the decison and also the rationsale for the decision (de colonizing, imperialism). The CEO may sign off the decision (or not) but overall he is responsible. He has made our country look like a laughing stock has lead to the PM intervening to ensure Shakespeare continues. Ardern's intervention show what an absolutely stupid mistake these people have made.

        • Incognito 8.2.1.1
          18 October 2022 at 9:35 pm

          What do you mean Incognito "but of course you missed it". I probably did miss it. So what, there's a lot I miss on the Standard.

          You replied to my comment the first time: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15-10-2022/#comment-1915874 laugh

          ARe the two assessors part of the 85 public servants employed at Creative NZ?

          Nope, what do you think the italicised (twice) “external peer assessors” mean?

          If not who appointed the assessors?

          You seem to think that Creative NZ employed them as assessors. Often peer reviewers don’t receive anything. If they do need to attend meetings in person they’ll get travel costs reimbursed.

          The CEO may sign off the decision (or not) but overall he is responsible. He has made our country look like a laughing stock has lead to the PM intervening to ensure Shakespeare continues.

          Wow! You’ve lost the plot there big time and now it is the CEO who is to blame. The reasons you make these outlandish claims are that you think he earns too much and you’re scapegoating. Shakespeare was never discontinued! Get a grip!

          Ardern's intervention show what an absolutely stupid mistake these people have made.

          Nope, it doesn’t show that at all. It shows that Ardern disagreed with the decision by Creative NZ and was desperate enough to score some brownie points [no pun] with the public. Ardern is, of course, Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage and arts funding is piss poor in NZ.

    • Binders full of Women 8.3
      18 October 2022 at 7:19 pm

      Looks like the PM— who was a S-in-S participant herself has leaned on Chippie. As for Creative NZ= FFS Wellington Woke elite intellectuals totally out of sync,,, I saw some of the current crop of Maori stars on TV and film take their first steps on stage… you guessed it= S in S. No colonial oppression, just joy in giving something a go.

  9. Tiger Mountain 9
    18 October 2022 at 1:45 pm

    Happy Xmas–War (on COVID) is Over–Govt. waves the biggest white flag!

    …just as another variant appears. Now there may be anti virals available, if you can actually see a doctor to get them, but some have health problems or social issues that make them more vulnerable.

    Has Jacinda been spanked by the bankers and middle class focus groups again? It is such a shame after 2020’s amazing “public health before private profit” Jacinda.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130205819/government-scraps-covid-powers-for-vaccine-mandates-gathering-limits-and-lockdowns?fbclid=IwAR3MOMc0NpTpx4vI9wSPxMcHsgNN_8PfmV5_6dip-4dexvNeg-z69H7EzSI

    Sometimes Governments obtain special powers and never get around to revoking them, or remove some of citizens rights and don’t return them promptly, or ever. So in that respect the Labour Caucus has done well with these changes. But in terms of public health it sucks.

  10. Robert Guyton 10
    18 October 2022 at 4:35 pm

    Groundswell and Voices For Freedom

    Up in a tree

    Otago Daily Times

    ·

    SUBSCRIBER: A Groundswell NZ co-founder says the group has accepted Voices for Freedom’s support at this week’s planned protest, as long as the message remains clear.

    • mauī 10.1
      18 October 2022 at 8:04 pm

      Farmers rights and Medical rights movements in NZ. All is not well.

    • Nic the NZer 10.2
      18 October 2022 at 8:13 pm

      The message needs to remain clear at what stage? Has somebody finally figured out what the message was from February yet?

      If I recall correctly it was Trevor Mallard must allow actual children to use his personal playground on parliament grounds.

  11. Peter 11
    18 October 2022 at 5:24 pm

    I like the Herald's use of 'allegedly' and 'claimed' in its article about Sharma.

    I remember well a mate finding out he'd been duped by someone, confronting them and saying very vehemently. "You lying little shit!"

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-labour-party-mp-gaurav-sharma-quits-parliament/M3FG6HNQPPYJYUTO4DDHVHV4UE/