Open mike 18/11/2020

99 comments on “Open mike 18/11/2020 ”

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1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

   18 November 2020 at 6:51 am

   Sweden. All Not so good.And voices WERE raised…

   On 25 March, as confirmed cases passed 300 per day, about 2000 scientists signed an open letter calling for stricter control measures. It provoked little reaction. But a scathing op-ed, published by the 22 researchers in the newspaper Dagens Nyheter on 14 April, did get noticed. The piece carried the headline “The public health agency has failed. Politicians must intervene.” It noted that from 7 to 9 April, more people per million inhabitants had died in Sweden from COVID-19 than in Italy—and 10 times more than in Finland. FoHM officials “have so far not shown any talent for either predicting or limiting” the epidemic, they wrote.

   https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

   Sacked for wanting to wear a mask?….

   latest..

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/430829/sweden-restricts-gatherings-to-stem-second-covid-19-wave

   [when you cut and paste from anywhere (on site or off site), you have to make it clear that it is a cut and paste not your own words. Please compare your comment to my first reply to see the difference. When I say ‘have to’ I mean that the main two mods are so sick of this that we often now just remove the content of a comment, or if in a hurry just delete the whole thing. Which we don’t like doing, but I’m not willing to waste my time on this any more.

   I clarified in this post

   Dealing with this one comment, including time to read the comment, google to see if it’s a quote, writing the edited version, writing this mod note, and finding and linking the TS post about it, took me close to 10 mins. Multiply that by many times over a week and you can see why we have a low tolerance. It’s not just you, and I’m making a long note here so that others can get up to speed too.

   Please reply to this moderation so I know you have seen and understood it, thanks – weka]
   • weka 1.1

     18 November 2020 at 9:55 am

     Sweden. All Not so good.And voices WERE raised…

     On 25 March, as confirmed cases passed 300 per day, about 2000 scientists signed an open letter calling for stricter control measures. It provoked little reaction. But a scathing op-ed, published by the 22 researchers in the newspaper Dagens Nyheter on 14 April, did get noticed. The piece carried the headline “The public health agency has failed. Politicians must intervene.” It noted that from 7 to 9 April, more people per million inhabitants had died in Sweden from COVID-19 than in Italy—and 10 times more than in Finland. FoHM officials “have so far not shown any talent for either predicting or limiting” the epidemic, they wrote.

     https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

     Sacked for wanting to wear a mask?….

     latest..

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/430829/sweden-restricts-gatherings-to-stem-second-covid-19-wave
     • greywarshark 1.1.1

       18 November 2020 at 10:16 am

       I don't want to be guilty of schadenfreude but… If Sweden had taken part in the practical and precautionary planning then implemented it, those who wanted to pooh-pooh the pppi idea wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Now a lot of people don't, who had years of life ahead and their country's medical response and death cycle services are stressed beyond coping.

       Years ago one USA area contracted out some of its death services to a local man who couldn't cope. He failed to keep up with his duties and started to dump some bodies till he could properly deal with them, and could never manage to cope. It became a private nightmare for him, and when revealed by reports in the media, for his local authority.

       That's why we have authorities in charge of various aspects of our life cycle and activity. Important decisions taken and implemented in a timely fashion for good outcomes desired by the community. They need to accept responsibility and act reasonably in concordance with all thinking members of society. And this applies all over the world, and now is at the front of our minds about almost everything we are seeing and doing, not just Covid-19.
   • weka 1.2

     18 November 2020 at 10:02 am

     mod note for you PLA, please respond when you have read it.
     • greywarshark 1.2.1

       18 November 2020 at 10:19 am

       Is it suitable to put quoted words in italics with the rest of the comment in normal font? Does that differentiate the cut and paste stuff enough for mods?
       • weka 1.2.1.1

         18 November 2020 at 11:59 am

         let's see…
         • weka 1.2.1.1.1

           18 November 2020 at 11:59 am

           Sweden. All Not so good.And voices WERE raised…

           On 25 March, as confirmed cases passed 300 per day, about 2000 scientists signed an open letter calling for stricter control measures. It provoked little reaction. But a scathing op-ed, published by the 22 researchers in the newspaper Dagens Nyheter on 14 April, did get noticed. The piece carried the headline “The public health agency has failed. Politicians must intervene.” It noted that from 7 to 9 April, more people per million inhabitants had died in Sweden from COVID-19 than in Italy—and 10 times more than in Finland. FoHM officials “have so far not shown any talent for either predicting or limiting” the epidemic, they wrote.

           https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

           Sacked for wanting to wear a mask?….

           latest..

           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/430829/sweden-restricts-gatherings-to-stem-second-covid-19-wave
           • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1

             18 November 2020 at 12:00 pm

             So long as the relevant link immediately follows the italics, that works for me.
             • greywarshark …

               18 November 2020 at 12:13 pm

               Great ta. There is so much to discuss and hash over I don't want to make life hard for mods especially if they cut us a bit of slack at times. The blog seems to go forward well and probably is a bellwether for the rest, without being sheepish!
       • Incognito 1.2.1.2

         18 November 2020 at 12:31 pm

         Why reinvent the wheel? Quote marks were invented by Quotus Maximus in 45 BC as a specific text tool. See what I did there with italics?
         • greywarshark 1.2.1.2.1

           18 November 2020 at 2:08 pm

           So I take it – use quotes and italics kept for drawing attention to something? Is that what you mean as –

           Why reinvent the wheel? Quote marks were invented by Quotus Maximus in 45 BC as a specific text tool. See what I did there with italics?
           • Incognito 1.2.1.2.1.1

             18 November 2020 at 10:50 pm

             It is very simple, use quote marks when you want to use someone else’s words in your comment.

             Use block quotes for long(er) quotes. These are separated from the other text by a new line, as in a new paragraph. When you use the Block Quote functionality of the WordPress text editor, you won’t have to lead off with quote marks, as this would be doubling up.

             Italics are used for emphasis. This doesn’t work when your whole quote, for example, is in italics. However, when you italicise a word(s) in a quote, you should add something like [my emphasis] or [my italics], in square brackets.

             Bold font is usually reserved for strong emphasis. As you know, here on TS it used to be reserved for moderation, but things have changed somewhat.

             These universally accepted conventions for written text are intended to make things easier for both reader and writer – we all learned these at school. The standardisation helps to avoid confusion. This means we can focus more on actual content and debate 😉
             • RedLogix …

               19 November 2020 at 12:59 am

               I've been in the long habit of using italics for both emphasis (usually one word or two) or when I'm quoting a sentence or two from another comment in the same thread in reply to someone. I've always figured that if I'm quoting someone else from the same thread, it's pretty obvious where it's come from and I don't bother linking.

               On the other hand if it's from an external source then I will link, and I'll always put the text in blockquotes.

               As you say, things change with time and are you happy for me to continue as I have been?
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.2

       18 November 2020 at 6:42 pm

       Yea…I cant fucking be bothered. And I thought trademe O and P was bad…Was it the pseudoscience/alt medicine? Take a jump : )
       • weka 1.2.2.1

         18 November 2020 at 9:33 pm

         cool, now we both know where we stand.
2. Ad 2

   18 November 2020 at 7:12 am

   I fully support James Shaw's call to put a hard limit on the importing of petrol and diesel cars.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123387955/time-to-consider-petrol-and-diesel-car-import-ban-says-climate-change-minister

   More than 14 countries and 20 cities around the world are already into this.

   https://theclimatecenter.org/actions-by-countries-phase-out-gas/

   Unfortunately our three main sources of vehicles – Japan, Singapore, and Australia – don't have particularly strong programmes against combustion vehicles.

   There's a more detailed discussion on this relationship between the ICE and GHG growth here at GreaterAuckland, who engaged pretty closely at the Business and CLimate Change Conference last week.

   https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2020/11/17/what-the-model-says-about-decarbonising-transport/

   David Parker, Minister for the Environment, was present, and noted:

   as a country we’ve reached the conclusion that decarbonisation of our light vehicle fleet is going to be the biggest opportunity to reduce emissions in the energy sector in the next few years.

   Seriously I just wish Ministers like that would just stop talking and start making some good ol' leadership decisions.
   • Sanctuary 2.1

     18 November 2020 at 8:30 am

     I agree. Surely this would be a really easy win – and would potentially even allow us to develop an electric conversion industry for petrol vehicles to accelerate to rollout of electric infrastructure?

     I guess Labour is terrified that it might lose it's new constituency amongst angry sub-contractor autocrats who love their SUVs.
     • RedLogix 2.1.1

       18 November 2020 at 8:55 am

       Timing is everything. Remember the 'light bulb' fiasco back in 2008?
       • Ad 2.1.1.1

         18 November 2020 at 9:09 am

         We dont have to worry.

         Not with this government.

         All the time in the world.
         • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.1

           18 November 2020 at 10:25 am

           Timing is everything. Remember the 'light bulb' fiasco back in 2008?

           The 'light bulb fiasco' is an example of when someone has a 'good' idea 💡 and it provides a quick fix to meet some target, and never mind whether it fits the requirements of all the populace.
         • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.2

           18 November 2020 at 12:15 pm

           At the very least learn something from that mistake. The correct way to introduce EV's is to promote a timeline over the next decade or so to make the transition.

           There will be early adopters who will be keen to get in, so make sure the infrastructure is put in place for them. Then incentivise the industry to start switching mainstream to EV models as they become more available and technically capable over the next 5 or so years.

           Promote industry training programs aggressively; and realise that a lot of people are going to have their employment heavily impacted by this.

           And then at the back end, make sure there is a plan to manage all the stranded ICE vehicles in manner that doesn't unduly penalise people who make the change later than others. Plus recognise that there will be some applications where EV doesn't work, and some form of liquid fuel infrastructure will probably need to be maintained for perhaps a couple of decades.

           At least put up a decent discussion document and get the industry engaged. By all means put in place some deadlines, but aim to get as many people on board voluntarily as possible. It's going to be a complex transition with many moving parts; govt cannot do this on it's own.
     • RedBaronCV 2.1.2

       18 November 2020 at 9:30 am

       Just tell them how much they will save by not buying petrol. Those figures are really great.
       And yes we do need to stop petrol imports – and bridge the gap for the low end buyer to go electric.

       Electric and hybrid are coming to lower priced vehicles.
3. Sanctuary 3

   18 November 2020 at 7:20 am

   Richard Prebble's pieces in the Herald are just sad. Today he starts off talking about measuring the economy via trucks, and ends with a quote from Ludwig von Mises. Can you imagine the Herald ever allowing a doddery, long retired, septuagenarian trade unionist a column where he told us all about his favoured simpleton measure for the economy (IDK, beer sales in working class areas?) and finished his article with a quote from Marx? Not on your Nelly! But the privilege of being an ex-leader of a far right party of economic crackpots is regular opinion pieces in the paper, it seems. Such is the glittering baubles with which the rich reward it's Quislings.

   Prebble reveals himself as a rather simple minded fanatic who somehow got to a position where he actually ran our economy for six years.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1

     18 November 2020 at 7:28 am

     aka "maddog" Prebble…him and his fellow neolib act/"labour"screwed NZ for Generations. Scum bag….
     • Tricledrown 3.1.1

       18 November 2020 at 10:51 am

       They got very well remunerated for joining the economic colonialists company.

       Dined and wined while the homeless struggle living on the streets.

       Before the wholesale sellouts homelessness didn't exist.

       Changes were needed pulling the rug out of economy in one hit has left widespread poverty a very low median wages high prices for food accommodation medical care etc.

       The Winners take all economic strategy

       Left overs for the peasant's if they are lucky.
   • Ad 3.2

     18 November 2020 at 9:07 am

     Plenty of commentators here defend Marxist revolution like they're auditioning for a bit part as a shouty shopsoiled stopwork air-puncher in a Movietone 1946 Communist Party conclave. I forget my keys sometimes but I dont forget a near century of Marxist-led savagery and genocide.

     Having said that, Richard Prebble needs to pour himself his morning double Balbeghie and go back to drooling on his porch armchair.
     • arkie 3.2.1

       18 November 2020 at 9:26 am

       I forget my keys sometimes but I dont forget a near century of Marxist-led savagery and genocide.

       hmm.

       But for the right, a revival of interest in Marx’s pre-Stalinist vision of communism is the most striking and chilling example of its own collapsing ideological supremacy: ‘communism’ is synonymous with tens of millions of deaths and nothing else. Capitalism, by contrast, is presented as a largely bloodless, blameless engine of human prosperity.

       The story of capitalism is more complicated than that. If you want to read effusive praise of capitalism, you’ll find it in Marx and Engels’ Communist Manifesto: the revolutionary dynamism of the capitalists, they wrote, had created “wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals”. But capitalism is an economic system drenched in the blood of countless millions.

       …

       The democratic radical left has long repudiated the totalitarian nightmare, and has reflected at great length as to how it happened. But many of capitalism’s unapologetic defenders have failed to scrutinise its own past: respectable politicians and historians still defend colonialism, despite its grotesque horrors. Diving back into the darkest days of 20th-century totalitarianism is not a fair way to take on 21st-century democratic socialists.

       https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/26/communists-capitalism-stalinism-economic-model

       
       • Phillip ure 3.2.1.1

         18 November 2020 at 9:32 am

         Wot arkie said..
         • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.1

           18 November 2020 at 10:59 am

           I forget my keys sometimes but I dont forget a near century of Marxist-led savagery and genocide.

           Hey you are stuck in your mindset so deep that you don't see that savagery etc is going on all the time. And capitalistic forces are very willing to carry out similar, perhaps dropping two nuclear bombs to quell any more hostility and empire building from the Japanese might be of parallel weight!

           We have nothing to fear, but fear of blinkered mindsets from either side of any mudpie-throwing competition. 'Well, if you knows of a better 'ole, go to it.' the 1915 cartoon from the naturally humanistic cartoonist, Bruce Bairnsfather. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Bairnsfather#World_War_I_service
       • RedLogix 3.2.1.2

         18 November 2020 at 12:39 pm

         And every single one of those causes of death are virtually exclusive to the least developed, the least 'capitalist' places on the planet.
         • arkie 3.2.1.2.1

           18 November 2020 at 12:47 pm

           Capitalism knows no borders.

           In 2012, the last year of recorded data, developing countries received a total of $1.3tn, including all aid, investment, and income from abroad. But that same year some $3.3tn flowed out of them. In other words, developing countries sent $2tn more to the rest of the world than they received. If we look at all years since 1980, these net outflows add up to an eye-popping total of $16.3tn – that’s how much money has been drained out of the global south over the past few decades. To get a sense for the scale of this, $16.3tn is roughly the GDP of the United States

           What this means is that the usual development narrative has it backwards. Aid is effectively flowing in reverse. Rich countries aren’t developing poor countries; poor countries are developing rich ones.

           …

           We know how to fix the problem. But doing so would run up against the interests of powerful banks and corporations that extract significant material benefit from the existing system. The question is, do we have the courage?

           https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries
           • RedLogix 3.2.1.2.1.1

             18 November 2020 at 12:58 pm

             And if you read the article much of that reverse flow is about 'capital flight', mostly companies moving capital illicitly out of the country to somewhere safer. The reasons for this are complex, a fair chunk of it being good old tax avoidance … but none of them a necessarily a feature of capitalism.

             Still the general rule is that as a country develops, it's own internal institutions become stronger, and it's government more capable and trusted, then this flow tends to slow down.
             • arkie …

               18 November 2020 at 1:43 pm

               Capital flight is definitionally a feature of international capitalism. Taxes are the State's attempt at limiting the private accumulation of resources. Tax avoidance extracts resources from the State preventing them from developing/strengthening its' own internal institutions.

               Capital flight and tax avoidance is a problem the world over, remember the Panama Papers?

               From their offshore accounts, [owners of capital] essentially make the same investments they do from banks located in London, New York, or Sydney: they buy financial securities — that is, stocks, bonds, and, above all, shares in mutual funds. The money in tax havens doesn’t sleep. It is invested in international financial markets.

               Zucman conservatively estimates that $7.6 trillion is invested in hidden offshore bank accounts, the equivalent of 8 percent of the world’s total wealth. That translates into at least $200 billion in lost tax revenue every year, according to his estimates.

               https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/H/bo20159822.html

               https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/panama-papers-capital-mobility-controls/
               • RedLogix …

                 18 November 2020 at 2:22 pm

                 Capital flight is definitionally a feature of international capitalism.

                 You just made that up.

                 And I’m pretty sure tax avoidance is an ancient pastime that pre-dates capitalism by quite a few thousands of years.
             • JeremyB …

               18 November 2020 at 2:09 pm

               Yes, moving Capital has nothing to do with Capitalism, of course. /s
         • McFlock 3.2.1.2.2

           18 November 2020 at 2:53 pm

           Does Flint have clean water, yet? Nope.
     • Phillip ure 3.2.2

       18 November 2020 at 9:30 am

       I actually loathe the old-school left-wing authoritarian mindset as much as I do right-wing fascism ..they are as ignorant as each other ..there really is a 'third-way'…(no..!..not neoliberal-incrementalism ..)
     • AB 3.2.3

       18 November 2020 at 9:47 am

       "Plenty"? Maybe a dozen – tops. And they're all safely coralled here in this little corner with no public platform, unlike Prebs.
   • Nic the NZer 3.3

     18 November 2020 at 9:49 am

     What are you talking about. We are still being treated to peak Prebble, as on point and relevant as ever.
4. Phillip ure 4

   18 November 2020 at 7:20 am

   Stuart nash on natrad showing the incoherence of his ban-the-van/we-want-rich-tourists flight of fancy ..feckin' idjit..!..
   • xanthe 4.1

     18 November 2020 at 7:29 am

     Yeah I also thought Stuart's contribution was ignorant and slightly offensive.
   • Bearded Git 4.2

     18 November 2020 at 8:50 am

     Agreed….. Nash's moronic attack on backpackers has been ripped apart by the texters on RNZ….Labour showing themselves to be elitist and authoritarian here…..I guess it's consistent with their lack of action on wealth redistribution.
     • greywarshark 4.2.1

       18 November 2020 at 11:23 am

       We need some practicality here about low-income visitors to NZ, not knee-jerk softies who can't look at the real problems we face from their business, in all meanings of the word.

       We have to have high-income longer-staying visitors –

       • to earn income without swamping our tourist assets and our environment (numbers)
       • to earn income yet trying to keep down the amount of bad environmental effects, so we have to prioritise
       • (Nil tourists would bring down our anti-environment carbon footprint, but we want overseas money and tourism ventures have invested a lot and want a return)
       • to keep people in hospitality jobs, one of the shrinking ways of getting a regular income in these halcyon days of the modern capitalist world

       I think the thinkers amongst us recognise that lower-income people should be able to come here. I suggest a group be allowed for by Immigration, one of which would be Woofers (Willing workers on organic farms), and others seasonal workers, from pickers, pruners, ski instructors, big machine drivers etc. Do-ers not just be-ers, would be welcomed. So backpackers would have a place and time to be here. And vans would have to have toilets, and there should be a limit on how many there are under licence in NZ. And that would limit the number clogging our roads, and they should be encouraged to travel by rail and bus with concessionary tickets of the hop-on, hop-off variety at cheap rates.

       Let's not pick on our rightish Labour pollies automatically. They may come up with some useful, practical schemes. We don't want pie-in-the-sky ones (like housing growing like mushrooms) as promised in the past do we? Practical, ticking the important boxes, that's what we need, I suggest.
   • AB 4.3

     18 November 2020 at 9:13 am

     Seemed like Nashie has overdosed on the 'high-end tourists only because we are so great" fantasy. The problem is that everywhere is great (and simultaneously terrible too). No acknowledgement of all those small/marginal operators whose livelihoods depends on volume.

     But the bigger problem is that discretionary tourism is doomed and has to pretty much stop soon, or we are hammering our way past 3C degrees of warming – so better to plan for that. And such a bad look – pandering to the rich – when holidays for most kiwis is the summer camp-ground or a week in a motel. Couldn't help feeling that Nashie’s high-end tourism might be a cunning extension of the real estate sector – the tourists get to look around and decide what properties to buy.
     • Graeme 4.3.1

       18 November 2020 at 10:33 am

       A higher value inbound industry isn’t necessarily incompatible to a thriving and affordable domestic industry and the pressures that CC and post covid will bring to tourism.
       Very likely that long haul cattle class won’t return, people won’t want to be there and it won’t be cheap any more. The people who will be able to afford long haul travel will want much better than a mud priced NZ motel.

       The pressure on price and capacity in the middle class domestic market doesn’t come from the upper end international but from the bottom and middle, that’s who’s filling the camping grounds and motels. We also spend the same going overseas as international inbound spend here.
       • Pat 4.3.1.1

         18 November 2020 at 10:50 am

         "We also spend the same going overseas as international inbound spend here."

         Roughly …and if we reduce incoming it will restrict the availability/affordability of outgoing as well….not that I expect that to be a popular outcome
         • Graeme 4.3.1.1.1

           18 November 2020 at 11:26 am

           Doubt we will need to restrict anything, just market to those that can afford it.

           Certainly not going to be popular, especially with the industry, Nash just told a lot of them they haven’t got a business any more. Surprised they took it ao well.
           • Pat 4.3.1.1.1.1

             18 November 2020 at 11:30 am

             Shouldnt have been news to them
             • greywarshark …

               18 November 2020 at 11:56 am

               edit
               Pat's point is one that doesn't get mentioned often. Airlines have to have two-way loading to be profitable ie fly in a certain number of passengers (enough to pay for the minimum costs involved), and then fly out, with a minimum number of passengers.

               It costs to keep the plane parked for long. The costs of retaining the crew, must be considered.

               As someone pointed out what we receive here from inbound tourists, may be balanced by our spending overseas, so there may be a net outcome. But at least it will keep our basic transport open, for a while longer, and provide trade and jobs. But all the time we must be considering how to bring our carbon footprint down. That means that government has to ensure that new debts are not being taken on, new planes are not being bought.

               Is someone working on a model for using shipping instead of planes? The weather changes will bring about timetable limitations ie not going through some ocean at such a latitude while the cyclone season is on. We don’t want our goods or ourselves to be travelling cattle class and end up at the bottom of the ocean do we. Perhaps we will have ‘flying ships’ especially designed to carry perishable goods at a high speed and cost.

               Tourists use ships for cruises, they can be used for long-trip travellers as they once were, Fairstar, Fairsky etc. And cruises to the Antartic and so on, when are they going to be stopped. It isn’t a good look in these climate-change times to have people nosy-parkering at things just because they have the money and curiosity. Too like end of Brave New World which resonates muchly these days. It’s a dirty human habit to want to stare at something doomed, so ghoulish. I suggest try looking in the mirror, to all of us as we all have this lurking curiosity.

               Overall I think that sharp minds need to assess any new spending and infrastructure on a basis of – will it cover its costs in returns in the next five years? I don't hear this sort of calculation being considered. The talk is thinking about 2035-2050, and the long-term plan is the wise option still being discussed these days.

               Our local Councils are still working on 10 year plans, and reluctantly giving up expensive options. But the locust-like planning for taking over productive and recreational and/or environmentally important land for housing continues unabated.
           • Phillip ure 4.3.1.1.1.2

             18 November 2020 at 12:17 pm

             Re equanimity of tourism industry @ nashs’ b.s..That would be because they would recognise him/his words as just another politician flying a kite..talking shite/trying to pretend to be relevant in some way..and failing..he has earned himself a new nickname tho'..stuart 'ban-the-van!' nash..
             • The Al1en …

               18 November 2020 at 12:42 pm

               Seeing as Women generally need to urinate more frequently than men due to having smaller bladders. criticising Nash for wanting to ban tourist vans without toilets, must be anti feminist.
               • Sabine …

                 18 November 2020 at 2:59 pm

                 Or we could invest in public, roadside toilet blocks for anyone ? Oh, that would be socialistic or something and thus nah, nah, can't be done?
                 • The Al1en …

                   18 November 2020 at 3:18 pm

                   We could, and should, but free loader campers wouldn’t need to crap where they wanted if they stayed at holiday parks or serviced DOC sites.
               • Phillip ure …

                 18 November 2020 at 2:59 pm

                 I see what u tried to do there…
                 • The Al1en …

                   18 November 2020 at 3:14 pm

                   Tried and succeeded, but fortunately you're coherent enough at the moment not to need the sarc tag I neglected to add.
5. xanthe 5

   18 November 2020 at 7:40 am

   My suggested solution to soaring house prices….. Tax interest received at around 85%
   • mikesh 5.1

     18 November 2020 at 8:52 am

     It would be better to make interest non tax deductible.
   • Herodotus 5.2

     18 November 2020 at 9:11 am

     The banks already pay less than 1% on deposits and you would be inflicting further pain on retirees who have had their income savaged

     Such measures would incentivise even more to be invested into property and away from other legit means of investment.

     why can not
   • xanthe 5.3

     18 November 2020 at 9:15 am

     Also we have a crazy system here where the lenders are protected from any risk. Thats arse about, it should be the lender takes most of the risk .
   • Stuart Munro 5.4

     18 November 2020 at 2:39 pm

     Another good one would be to cap real estate fees. Make no mistake, the current inflation is not unrelated to energetic promotion by real estate companies, who contribute nothing to the country to justify their extremely high (by international standards) cut.
6. Macro 6

   18 November 2020 at 9:02 am

   

   Stacy Abrams and President Jimmy Carter. Greeting each other in a very Blue Georgia
   • Ad 6.1

     18 November 2020 at 9:08 am

     +1000

     Shot of the day.
   • Phillip ure 6.2

     18 November 2020 at 9:35 am

     I respect carter…one of the 'best' presidents america has had in eons..
   • weka 6.3

     18 November 2020 at 10:04 am

     very cool.
   • Bearded Git 6.4

     18 November 2020 at 6:00 pm

     Great shot…Carter has been unfairly much-maligned.

     He was unlucky with the Iran hostage raid that destroyed his chance of a second term.
7. Pat 7

   18 November 2020 at 9:21 am

   Some good analysis…around 50 mins long but theres a particularly succinct 2 mins at 40 min mark

   https://digitalfinanceanalytics.com/blog/
8. xanthe 8

   18 November 2020 at 10:18 am

   eeeeeck now Judith Collins is talking some sense. our world is upside down

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/430866/no-controls-on-how-trading-banks-use-funding-recipe-for-disaster-collins
   • xanthe 8.1

     18 November 2020 at 10:21 am

     cant someone take Jacinda aside and explain to her that private companies lending made up money at interest for profit is the very root of the problem
     • Tricledrown 8.1.1

       18 November 2020 at 11:04 am

       Xanthe National would not print money so the economy would tank 45,000 building permits are keeping the economy afloat.

       At the height of the GFC meltdown only 12,000 permits National borrowed money at 5.5% from overseas which the US was only charging •5% interest,padding the likes of Goldman Sachs huge profits.

       Key was those banks lackey refusing to do what all the major trading blocks were doing printing money so we could subsidize these corrupt vulture capitalists who created the problem
       • xanthe 8.1.1.1

         18 November 2020 at 11:42 am

         Well i cant see any other solution then to ban private lending at interest both private and public and Govt be the only lender who can make up appropriate money(Just like happens NOW!) and lend it where and only where it is in the public good!

         what I cannot see at all right now is … how to get there?
9. Chris 9

   18 November 2020 at 10:19 am

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300161375/tourism-minister-to-ban-tourists-from-hiring-vans-that-are-not-selfcontained

   And the Fuckwit of the Year Award goes to…
   • xanthe 9.1

     18 November 2020 at 10:22 am

     errm still some deadwood to clear out in the Labour caucus I think
     • Chris 9.1.1

       18 November 2020 at 4:22 pm

       Hopefully he's setting fire to himself.
   • Tricledrown 9.2

     18 November 2020 at 11:17 am

     Most New Zealanders would agree with Nash .

     But for the seasonal labour these tourists provide.

     New Zealanders have no reason to uproot their city life to go and work for a few weeks or months on a minimum wage while living in substandard conditions .

     The myth that freedom campers don't contribute is a fallacy ,They don't spend on accommodation but do work in horticulture and tourism which are short term low paid jobs no one else wants to do.

     That money goes back into our economy and keeps industries flourishing many spending big money on adventure tourism.

     The govt should be upgrading infrastructure to cope with this type of tourism before it gets overwhelmed again no doubt in the future when a Covid vaccine is widely available and cheap air flights
     • Graeme 9.2.1

       18 November 2020 at 1:02 pm

       Everyone is focusing on the backpacker side, but it’s also the bottom / middle of the coach and FIT market that’s not going to be supported. Generally in this market very little is in NZ$ so little loss to most of the country, and the market may not exist any more.
   • Rosemary McDonald 9.3

     18 November 2020 at 11:27 am

     And the Fuckwit of the Year Award goes to…

     Poor Stu, he needs to get out more then he'd realise those Young'uns are buying those wee Shitmobiles. There are entire websites and FB pages trading in them.

     But still, the good folk of Napier keep on voting for him despite his thing about fire engines.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10553595/Stuart-Nash-its-all-about-bloody-hard-work

     Nevermind Stuart….your day will come…

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIbuQeQzDA
   • tc 9.4

     18 November 2020 at 3:23 pm

     The ego has landed in tourism for the moment, reminds me of large orgs who put managers where they can do minimal damage as tourism's a tad flat currently.

     He's been shuffled aside after not being up to scratch in his prior portfolios and the eyes are on him now. Methinks Nash's been found out.
   • Bearded Git 9.5

     18 November 2020 at 6:03 pm

     From now on he will be known as knee-jerk Nash.

     The solution is more public toilets rather than destroying a lucrative part of NZ's tourist industry, and the country's image to boot.
     • Chris 9.5.1

       18 November 2020 at 7:04 pm

       Yes. Or how about Nat Nash?
10. Reality 10

    18 November 2020 at 11:41 am

    Like to know the advantage of tourists in their cheap vans travelling round spoiling the environment and making a mess. If they can afford the fare to NZ they should be prepared to pay to behave decently.

    The Greens, who are so passionate about the environment, have been somewhat quiet on this. Do they support the Minister's ideas? They are keen to ban petrol cars and have Kiwis pay high prices for electric cars but I'd like to hear them equally concerned about the pollution and mess caused by these cheap travellers.
    • xanthe 10.1

      18 November 2020 at 12:05 pm

      eeek Where to start.

      Lots of Low Cost travelers do contribute heaps and behave admirably

      The Greens idea was not to " ban petrol cars and have Kiwis pay high prices for electric cars" But rather to apply duty to petrol cars and use that duty to reduce the cost of electric cars for kiwis.

      There are places in NZ where for whatever reason the litter has not been picked up for a few years. I can assure you the mess left by "low cost tourists" is a tiny grain in the mountain of crap NZs throw out the window.
11. mango 11

    18 November 2020 at 12:57 pm

    I know that this will put the cat among the pidgeons but a ban on ICE vehicles would be a pointless waste of time. Despite all the hype 100% electric transport is not and never will be physically possible. I don't blame people for believing the hype because everyone wants it to be true but the laws of physics wont change just because we want them to. A mix of electricity, biofuel and reduced transport demand is what will actually happen.
12. greywarshark 12

    18 November 2020 at 1:23 pm

    I've commented on here before that there are reports of CourierPost ()NZ Post) having on-line service down so not being open for business on-line. I expressed my disappointment and fear that the government is prepared to let this important government agency go down the drain by allowing it to fall through the crack of not being wholly government or private and there being plenty of competition willing to take it up.

    I thought I would take a little look at the running, and who on the gummint is likely to have an overview of it. It is a vital communication pipeline, and we damn well better see it maintained and sharp. I support NZ Post and it would pay other NZ-committed to do so as well.

    Some TradeMe conversation about it on Nov.17. These are people at the micro level showing initiative and that should be encouraged, and they try to remain good humoured! Someone has now advised that the site is up, so it is intermittent. Not good for 'productivity' and efficiency of sellers or CourierPost though.

    No PO boxes bookings at the moment as Courierpost is down.
    Message just now when trying to book saying… Sorry, CourierPost's services are currently unavailable but you can still book with Aramex.

    Yes its very frustrating that courierpost services are down AGAIN. Been trying since mid morning and still not avail. Its all very well Aramex being avail to use at a higher cost, but when you have given cheaper price to buyer after a quote earlier and they've paid you are stuck with covering the cost. Or just try, try, try again to book with courierpost. (Mind you we are all probably doing the same thing and the poor system cant hope haha)

    This is part of what the NZ Post site says about its Governance:

    The Board of the New Zealand Post Group currently comprises of six non-executive Directors. The two Shareholding Ministers – the Minister of Finance and the Minister of State Owned Enterprises, on behalf of the Crown, appoint the Directors considering the balance of competencies and experience on the Board and through consultation with the Chair, Rodger Finlay. https://www.nzpost.co.nz/about-us/investor-centre/leadership

    So how will NZ Post fare under this Labour Government. I looked at the facts about the pollies involved and tried to get a feel of the likely outlook of the Hon Dr David Clark.
    We know the Minister of Finance, Hon. Grant Robertson –
    The Minister of State Owned Enterprises is the Hon. David Clark who also has other important business and organisational responsibilities –

    Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs
    Minister for the Digital Economy and Communications
    Minister for State Owned Enterprises
    Minister of Statistics
    Minister Responsible for the Earthquake Commission
    https://www.labour.org.nz/news-new-team-ministers-labour-government-2020

    The Hon. Dr David Clark has I think, an unusual background for his present portfolios. Religious ministry – Treasury – Politics. It is possible that his background of theoretical and moralistic thinking, thinly balanced on fact (religion and economics) may be more didactic and moralistic than practical and pragmatic. He does say in his bio that he's 'done a bunch of different things. I've worked on farms and in factories.' So he's been out and about in the wide, wild world a little, has also been strong in cycling, running, which are individualistic sports.
    Early years:
    Advisor, to Hon David Parker 2006 – 2007
    Analyst, Treasury 2003 – 2006
    PhD Student, University of Otago 2000 – 2003
    Presbyterian Minister, Community of St Luke 1997 – 2000
    University Exchange Student, Germany 1997
    Student, University of Otago, BA, BTheol(Hons) 1991 – 1996
    http://www.davidclark.org.nz/about
    • greywarshark 12.1

      18 November 2020 at 2:13 pm

      Advice for TradeMe users who have seen the above. There is a 'cheat' for getting round the CourierPost on-line program weakness. This is a good example of NZs keeping on buzzing despite difficult times, and helping each other in goodwill. We need lots of this now and going forward.

      One commenter offered this process:

      Often Courierpost goes down,
      OR if the address is not recognised it doesn't show up. Try this.
      When you see the buyers delivery address when booking, just under it click Edit delivery address.
      Put in name
      Start typing address and when it gives you a choice to select, DON'T.
      Click the link below it that says Can't find your address?
      Put in the address
      Leave out suburb ! important
      Put in post code if you know it's correct, else click on the find Post code button to go to the NZPost website and find it there.
      Click the Update address button, and Courierpost should pop up.

      Haven't tried it myself but the experienced usually are spot on with their advice.
    • Stuart Munro 12.2

      18 November 2020 at 2:40 pm

      He'd be right at home with Treasury – they're a cult.
      • greywarshark 12.2.1

        18 November 2020 at 2:47 pm

        I had a feeling about his train tracks and the passengers he would meet.
13. Reality 13

    18 November 2020 at 1:44 pm

    Yes, there are low cost travellers who show respect, but equally we have all seen photos of the mess some leave behind. They spoil it for others and all too often get away with it. That behaviour costs the local councils in time and money.

    Is there an undercurrent on this thread of resentment towards wealthy tourists? So many people on the Standard seem constantly disgruntled with people who are better off, government ministers, the world, the cannabis referendum, life in general. And yet there are often articles in the media about people who have to deal with life's challenges but can still show some joy and positivity nevertheless.
    • greywarshark 13.1

      18 November 2020 at 2:54 pm

      Hit the reality button will you. It is no secret that NZ is one of the most unequal from high income to low, in the developed countries list.

      Of course, like good little economic analysts, we are looking to see if we are getting our moneysworth out of these high paid execs. Does their productivity match up minute by minute. If you work in an accountants or solicitors you may be on a time sheet accounting for every 6 minutes, and we want the same accountability for the fatnecks.

      So as our money flows upwards, and our water flows outwards, we look at what is left in our codpieces, and find the remains small and drying up. As Queen sang 'We will, we will Screw you'. Or was it 'Rock you'. It is time to do something, and we are noting who we are going to pick on for being Mr or Ms Creosote for December 2020. Stick around and we'll get to you sooner rather than later and your reality will change.
    • Sabine 13.2

      18 November 2020 at 3:00 pm

      So who is responsible for all the roadside rubbish currently?
      • Phillip ure 13.2.1

        18 November 2020 at 5:10 pm

        Nz has a long history/culture of throwing rubbish out the car window…and it sure as hell isn't the tourists who are fly-tipping all over the country…should we mention those old dump sites that are re-surfacing..?..this targeting/scapegoating of young foreign tourists is sodden with bigotry/ignorance…they stay longer..they work…and every day they are supporting local businesses…I live in raglan and interact with them all the time…invariably they are intelligent/articulate/friendly…also lots of rich tourists pass thru here…with their noses in the air…I know which I prefer ..
    • woodart 13.3

      18 November 2020 at 8:14 pm

      good post reality. many on the standard seem to get out of bed, looking to be outraged. very tireome. I now only dip into the standard infrequentley. real life is far more stimulating, and forfulling.
14. Reality 14

    18 November 2020 at 3:22 pm

    Greywarshark – silly, inane comments that don't make sense. Who is going to "get" me exactly?
15. Koff 15

    18 November 2020 at 3:35 pm

    Full lockdown in South Australia. Similar origin and situation to the August Auckland cluster. Hopefully they have acted faster than Victoria.

    https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/coronavirus/circuit-breaker-sa-in-full-lockdown/news-story/0a167b4e08e2f6ff4b38895e7a400dcf
    • Drowsy M. Kram 15.1

      18 November 2020 at 4:58 pm

      Hope so too. With effective COVID-19 vaccine(s) in 2021 looking more likely, the common sense of:

      (i) strict border controls,
      (ii) good testing/tracking/tracing,
      (iii) timely lockdowns, and
      (iv) good personal and community hygiene practices

      in the interim is evident.

      We don't know how lucky we are. In some countries the COVID horse has well and truly bolted. For example, in the USA ~3.5% of the population has been infected (so far), with an overall case fatality rate of ~2.2%. In French Polynesia ~4.4% of the population has been infected.

      Stamp it out, keep it out.
16. greywarshark 16

    18 November 2020 at 3:51 pm

    Why we should not do anything – because it would hurt the interests of the business leaders who oriented towards their interests, which is getting not only low interest, but high interest and payouts, and no interest in the rest of the country.

    But before government does nothing it should tell the Reserve Bank what is wanted, and thus show the Governor how to make everybody (who counts) happy. I think that it's one of those operational matters that government is not supposed to direct but…. Reserve Bank independence, well Transparency International don't have to know exactly how that works.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/430854/business-leaders-against-national-s-idea-of-imposing-conditions-on-funding-for-lending

    Business NZ (Roundtable) Kirk Hope. What a good name for a moneyman with probity. Kirk is Scots for Church and Hope has a nice positive religious tone to it. Names like this and Steadfast Virtue as in the Gloriavale type of virtue-signalling inspire a deep feeling of… something.

    And cleancut Andrew Bayly who is captioned as Shadow Treasurer which of course means Opposition – National says" "All I'm suggesting is that if the government is clear that we do not want to see rapid escalation of house prices, the Reserve Bank is smart enough to be able to work out the best policies to implement to make sure that doesn't continue to occur," he said.

    Hope wants banks to be the arbiters of lending, government stay out. (In other words, keep us in the driving seat which is speaking Business NZ style and also its cohort.) He was not worried that the lion's share might end up in the pockets of property investors.
17. Ad 17

    18 November 2020 at 3:53 pm

    Well, Nelson Council just generated a really noisy and risky way to open up a public discussion about climate change in Nelson.

    About 4500 property owners in Nelson are being told their land is at risk of potential inundation from sea level rise and other coastal hazards.

    Nelson City Council is sending letters to landowners on the back of new coastal inundation maps, which show that swathes of central Nelson and coastal suburbs stand to be flooded under the worst case scenarios.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/123427369/maps-forecast-large-areas-of-nelson-underwater-from-sealevel-rise

    They ain't going to get Christmas cards for sending that one out.
    • WeTheBleeple 17.1

      18 November 2020 at 4:07 pm

      Much better than pretending it's not an issue. We can't sleepwalk our way into disaster the writing's been on the wall for some time.

      Even my blanket fort feels a tad unsafe in these times.
      • Phillip ure 17.1.1

        18 November 2020 at 5:13 pm

        'blanket fort'…heh..!
    • Koff 17.2

      18 November 2020 at 4:08 pm

      20 years down the track, the councillors of the day ain't going to get Christmas cards for keeping mum about the danger of inundation if they have that evidence at hand, now.

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