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Open mike 18/01/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 18th, 2013 - 150 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…


150 comments on “Open mike 18/01/2013”

  1. North 1

    Shades of “the emperor with no clothes” from John Key……….Parata is a top communicator and hugely talented apparently. Nothing of the fiasco in the Ministry of Education has much to do with her apparently.

    What ???

  2. Anne Tolley must be thinking fuck for that for a laugh.

    • Dr Terry 2.1

      Oh, please bring back Tolley!! All is forgiven! She did the will of Key as obligingly as Parata, but Parata is even more effectively putting across his anti-education wishes!

      • halfcrown 2.1.1

        No thank you, Off Your Trolley(Tolley) was the one that wiped out a long tradition in NZ by cutting the night classes. A start off point for many a successful business.

        Just because there is one incompetent it does not fair well to replace it with an equal incompetent.

        The answer is, get rid of Smile and Wave Shonkey and all his pack of incompetent prats

  3. Dv 3


    Key faints ahead of Antarctic trip

    Prime Minister John Key fainted and collapsed while out for dinner last night.

    He was at dinner at the Italian restaurant Tutto Bene in Merivale, Christchurch.

    He was taken to Christchurch hospital in a police car and assessed by three specialists. He was there for two and half hours before being released.

    Key is in Christchurch to fly to Antarctica and has been cleared to leave this morning.

    Doctors do not know what caused him to faint.

    • Pete 3.1

      I hope it’s not serious. I mean, I don’t like him but I don’t wish him ill. I’ve fainted on several occasions and it is quite a scary experience.

      • bad12 3.1.1

        I will probably get spanked if i revealed my true feelings on hearing news that Slippery took a little ‘turn’ last night,

        Get well soon Slippery, we haven’t finished with your education yet…

        • bad12

          Did someone just avail the Slippery one of the latest results from National’s internal polling???, (snigger), now there’s a read to put anyone off their dinner…

          • karol

            Fainting is a freaky experience for anyone, and fortunately it sounds like Key is in good health.

            According to Hilary Barry on Twitter,

            Social media feedback suggests the restaurant bill may have been the cause of the PM’s fainting episode.

            Bomber tweeted:

            Key fainted last night after calling Hekia Parata National’s greatest communicator – is there nothing she can’t destroy by association?

            On a more serious note – doesn’t 3 specialists and 2 and a half hours of observation seem a lot for a faint?

            • bad12

              Unfortunately i cannot help but remember yesterdays news from Social Development Minister Paula Benefit,

              Paula has managed to give 12,000 the kick off of various benefits while in the news this morning the Council of Trade Unions has quoted the unemployment benefit figures as remaining the same,

              While i KNOW that a number of those ‘moved off benefits’ are now reliant on the charity of various Inner City Ministries for their daily bread having no income whatsoever, i cannot in all honesty raise 1 iota of sympathy for the Slippery little Shyster we have as Prime Minister choking on His Pasta which in all likelihood was paid for by the tax-payer…

            • Kevin Welsh

              Did he have to wait in line with all the other punters with less than life-threatening problems who have been triaged?

              • McFlock

                the ones who might have to wait 2.5 hours before they get let through the doors and put on a bed?

                Triage is for plebs.

            • Murray Olsen

              I’d happily accept 2 years of inpatient observation. The health of the great man should be our foremost concern.

          • ak

            Apparently someone remarked that the Pole was way south of 20….

            • Dv

              Apparently jetlag

              BUT hawaii is only 1 hr different

              • TheContrarian

                Flights themselves are draining experiences. I felt fucked after coming back from Samoa and that is only an 1 hour difference

              • Malcolm

                Melatonin pills are sold over the counter as a treatment for jet lag in North America, one possible side effect is dizzy-spells and in some cases fainting, Key just returned from Hawaii, so I would probably guess it is related to that with nothing more sinister going on.

      • One Tāne Huna 3.1.2

        +1 Pete. Well said.

      • Tom 3.1.3

        I concur. Nevertheless the National Party backers and electoral organisation will be running through lists of alternative names while he is away in their minds, perhaps on paper, not online.

        Key has reprised his starring role as the salesman who brought in the deals at Merrill for this government. Love him or hate him, he has been the public face of this administration with memorable lines such as “Beckham is as thick as batshit”.

        Without him we are left with English, Brownlee, Joyce, Collins, Ryall, Parata, Bennett, Carter, McCully ..

        Is anyone still awake ?

    • Northshoreguynz 3.2

      Maybe he forgot to breathe.

      • bad12 3.2.1

        The transition from ‘Planet Key’ to little old Noo Zealand could be said to have encountered an atmospheric anomaly…

    • millsy 3.3

      Not very good. Hopefully just a one off. Might be the record heat we are having, and him all trussed up in a suit in a stuffy restaurant — by ‘stuffy’ I mean really hot/humid with bugger all ventilation.The Antarctic chill will be a welcome change for him.

      • karol 3.3.1

        The restaurant manager says it wasn’t stuffy, and that she had commented earlier in the evening that Key looked tired, unwell and was sweating noticeably.

        The Antarctic NZ spokesperson put it down to jet lag, and also said Key looked exhausted.

        • xtasy

          Key obviously passed the “Work Capacity Test” by three doctors (truly “independent” ones I trust), so surely sick and disabled WINZ beneficiaries better “toughen up” and pass the future UK designed – and Dr Bratt (MSD) approved – “work ability tests” as well with pride, and sign up as “jobseekers” ready for work the day after.

          The PM is “leading” by example, yet again, I presume.

        • muzza

          Key is unwell, that much is obvious, its written all over his face.

      • Chris 3.3.2

        Akshully my parner commented the other night that key was looking puffy faced and unwell when he saw him on tv.

        Restaurant probably didn’t stock his wine.

        • bad12

          Probably just got told by those who manage His investment portfolio that He is down another 5 million…

      • idlegus 3.3.3

        he fell over last year as well, after playing golf with tim groser, so maybe not a 1 off?

    • Rosie 3.4

      One of the few reason I read the stuff website in the morning is for any sign that something terrible has befallen the Nat Govt. Maybe the country awakes of its collective coma overnight and says “ENOUGH Key must go!”. Nat calls a snap election and then get booted out. Its my fantasy and I’m sticking with it.

      However after reading that article this am I did feel slightly guilty for wishing disaster upon Key in general and a bit sorry for JK having a fainting turn. Like Pete says below, it’s scary experience, and you wouldn’t wish it upon anyone. He has been having some difficulty coping for some time now. I also wonder in all seriousness that as well as the long work hours the strain of your personality not being a good fit for the job : ie, he’s a taker, not a giver, (and certainly not a leader) and that doesn’t fit with the requirements of being of service to a nation, is a source of constant stress to him.

    • xtasy 3.5



      Yes, oh horror, this happening to the adorable PM, just before leaving for Antarctica, that is of course of “national concern”.

      With all respect, I do not wish John Key any harm, and I trust it may just be “chronic fatigue syndrome” or the likes, but do hundreds or even more of other people not “faint” somehow every day???

      I am sure, it will be at the top of the MSM TV news tonight.

      Never mind any debate about unemployment figures, welfare slashing, the state of the economy, Parata’s bungles and what else is happening.

    • fatty 3.6

      Give him a drug test…last time it was a broken arm, now this. Some people are a burden on our health system

    • Chris 3.7

      Thank goodness he was able to get attention instantly from so many specialists in such a short time. I hope they were all male specialists. How many ORDINARY people had to wait while his little faint was attended to?

    • felixviper 3.8

      I imagine coming back from holiday to a high profile high stress job that everyone knows you don’t want to do anymore would knock you for six. And stress kills.

      For his and his family’s sake, hopefully he was just ‘tired and emotional’ and nothing more serious. For the country’s sake he should sort his shit out and decide whether he’s up for this gig anymore.

  4. fatty 4

    Despite generally being a fan of UK TV comedy, there is some TV coming out of the US that is worth watching. One of these is Portlandia, a show about the city of Portland, Oregon. The show consists of sometimes related skits and reoccurring characters which examines our social norms, and critiques our ideologies, morals and ethics.

    The first clip on the latest show was called one party at a time which considered the challenges and problems associated with contemporary protest movements.
    The ‘protest’ begins with a vague discussion of the problem, and the participants don’t really know what they are protesting against.
    The protest repeatedly descends into a self obsessed party where the original concern gets lost and individualism takes over.
    Firstly they attempt to redefine the protest as more political, then more simple, then finally based on hippy ideals…but they all fail. Challenges to the protest include sexualisation, short attention span, glitter and glamour, and image over substance.
    The end of the clip shows how easy it is for those in power to end the protest, and silence the protesters.
    This 2 min clip is funny, but it is also depressing….its a powerful critique of protests today, but also shows how protest has been rendered ineffective against the seduction of hyper-capitalism.

    This Portlandia clip reminds me of Zizek’s call to do less activism and more thinking. Less doie, more Hui. Unfocused resistance can often end up making our current situation seem the best option.

    • just saying 4.1


      It seems to me that a broad left wing discourse* is just getting started again, after years in the wilderness. A few small groups suvived, and there have always been friends talking amongst themselves, but getting alternative world views heard, far and wide, to counter the TINA which has stifled dissent for so long, must be a big priority. One of the biggest barriers seems to be concern for how we are perceived – as if it is necessary to win others over with the first hearings. Most people take a lot longer to change their minds – points of view tend to evolve. But repeated exposure is the key. Something the marketing/focus-group, approach to politics has completely failed to grasp, if indeed their proponents actually care about anything beyond winning and market share.

      But I don’t think we can just defer action while we sort out our thinking. Things are not static and there must be some responsibility to act as the jack boot of the elites comes down on more faces more often, and the environment is used and abused.

      *When did I start routinely using terms like “discourse” and “meme”? Certainly not before I started spending time here. I really hope the particular language we use doesn’t create barriers, like some kind of exclsuive club..

      • fatty 4.1.1

        But I don’t think we can just defer action while we sort out our thinking. Things are not static and there must be some responsibility to act as the jack boot of the elites comes down on more faces more often, and the environment is used and abused.

        True…there has to be a balance. The Gap Filler project in Christchurch is an example of a grassroots movement that is focused on action, and appears to encourage not thinking too much.
        Its interesting that you refer to things not being ‘static’ as one of the representatives from Gap Filler Ryan Reynolds suggests here that we should embrace the temporary…after all, what is permanent these days?
        However, in saying that, Gap Filler’s call for action sits upon their already well defined ideology which requires action now, and is suitable to the socio-political environment of Christchurch.

    • Rosie 4.2

      Hi Fatty. We’re forever on the look out for funny and smart viewing. Sure as hell you can’t get it on NZ TV.

      Came across Portlandia awhile ago and downloaded it. We’ve been enjoying it for several reasons. One aspect that struck me was the way the show demonstrated some of the pompousness, hypocrisy, exclusivity and naivety that you can come across within some movements. These attributes can really kill an otherwise useful and energetic movement. It’s one of the main reasons I stay on the outside of activism these days. I can’t be bothered dealing with the ego’s.

      On an entertainment note the show is just plain funny. Those two main actors are good at playing a real variety of characters. Kyle McLaughlin (sp?) plays a good role as Mayor of the town too.

      • fatty 4.2.1

        Yeah, the Mayor off Portlandia is very funny.
        A few other comedies that I enjoy and make me think:

        Louie (US comedian Louis CK struggling through life)
        Curb Your Enthusiasm (Larry David, ex Seinfeld creator getting pissed off at life)
        Nathan Barley (Chris Morris / Charlie Brooker also pissed off at dickheads)
        Snuff Box (weird shit)
        Veep (the US version of ‘the thick of it’…not as good as the US version, but still written by Armando Iannucci)
        The Armando Iannucci Shows (prob my favourite TV show ever, from the creator of ‘the thicl of it’)
        Time Trumpet (more Armando Innucci)
        Black Mirror (Charlie Brooker drama/thriller/comedy – amazing. New Ep. soon!..that link is episode 1 of 3 in first season)
        A Touch of Cloth (Charlie Brooker, very dry comedy, piss take of UK police dramas)
        Them From That Thing (skit show, Charlie Brooker is one of the writers, only 2 episodes)

        Some of these are quite old and can be hard to find, some are on youtube

        • Rosie

          Hey Fatty thanks heaps for those links. I just had a quick peek at the Armando Iannucci shows and I did actually laugh out loud. Am looking forward to watching all the others.(I like the sound of a touch of cloth). Thanks for doing all the leg work!

          Have seen all the Nathan Barleys. Liked that. Was interesting to see thingie Barrett who played Howard Moon in the Mighty Boosh, play a character in Nathan Barley.

          One thing we’ve got planned to watch is the box set of This is England ’86. It’s drama, certainly not comedy. The first movie This is England was set in Thatchers Britain in the early 80’s. Trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0jkv2bRFgQ. We got This is England ’88 out on DVD without realising there was a four part series set in ’86. The ’88 movie was very real and gritty and really woke you up. When you see movies like that it reminds how insipid most movies are. Anyway, you might have seen it already and I’m waffling on like this is Weekend Social, not Open Mike.
          Big ups for the links.

          • fatty

            no worries…and thanks for info about This is England ’86. I’ve been meaning to watch the movie, but didn’t realise there was a TV show too, I’ll check it out

  5. bad12 5

    Is the Maori Party headed for the scrap heap of minor Government support Party’s in the Parliament, the news item on OneNews last night,(if anywhere near the truth), would have current co-Leader Sharples proclaiming ‘hell no He won’t go’ as far as relinquishing His leadership position is concerned, (Pita might be hanging in there sweating on ‘the knighthood),

    While OneNews didn’t interview Flavell, they quoted ‘a rumor’ that Flavell has indicated He may not stand for the Maori Party again unless He is given a Leadership position after the departure of Tariana Turia,

    It’s AGM time for the Maori Party and an elegant solution would be to simply drop the requirement to have both a male and female Leader of the Party in the Parliament, (which would be quite an intelligent option considering there is no guarantee that the Party will have a female MP in the Parliament after the 2014 election),

    It’s all a bit of a ‘snigger’ really as it’s looking ever more likely that the Maori Party won’t have any MP’s after the next election, i doubt that after 6 years of National Auckland Maori are going to vote for someone who has sat there as a Government Minister and paid ‘lip service’ to those who put Him into the Parliament while the National Government has taken to their very means of existence with a Patu,

    Flavell holding His seat is the Maori Party’s best chance of survival but Annette Sykes this far out from 2014 is 50/50 to take it off of Him this time being aided with Flavell having been tarred for the past 6 years by the same brush wielded by Tariana and Pita…

  6. rosy 6

    I’m very interested to know what building project in Auckland requires the hiring of Australian builders.

    The advert placed on the Australian Seek website in late December calls for “expressions of interest” for 80 construction carpenters for a “major construction project in New Zealand to commence in early 2013”.

    Placed by Perth recruiting company TR7, it seeks carpenters with formwork and roofing experience. It says they will be employed on a fly-in, fly-out basis from West Australia, working three weeks then a week off.

    If the project goes ahead….

    So what big projects in Auckland are in a planning phase at the moment?

  7. Key’s fainting could be attributed to High Blood Pressure or his Heart,that’s right he
    hasn’t got one,(only for the top 1-2%), he certainly hasn’t got one for those kicked
    off welfare for various reasons,kicked out of stable HNZ houses to allow the top
    1-2% to further increase their portfolio’s,he certainly doesn’t care for the children
    in NZ that are facing starvation every day, He certainly doesn’t care for the sick
    and disabled,insisting they can find work,there is no excuses accepted,go forth
    and find a job,or else you will have to beg,steal or borrow, he could not give a
    Perhaps the god’s are sending him a message, ‘you eat well on behalf of all of
    those women,men and children, who in one way or another feed you, take that,
    you poor excuse for a human being’

  8. karol 8

    Gareth Morgan explains why the Antarctic is important to Key, and why Key is ken to reinforce NZ’s rights there:

    Certainly his visit matters a lot more than the mindless platitudes of green groups. It is great that he has gone down there….

    But the main reason for going is that Antarctica is vital to our national security, climate and much of our unique wildlife. And there are many issues facing the region, including climate change and the race for resources, not just fish and whales but possibly a renewed interest in the minerals locked under Antarctica’s ice cap.

    I don’t go with Morgan’s lip service to climate change and environment, while slamming “greenies” and his talking up of Key’s approach.

    • Anne 8.1

      Vital to our national security? That’s an interesting inclusion as to why the Antarctica is vital to NZ.

      I smell wee rat? Just a little one.

      • Maui 8.1.1

        The ‘wee rat’ could be access to oil and mineral resources as global warming proceeds.

        It is entirely predictable that a former Merrill trader and a self-employed economist would be interested in potential developments.

        The rest of us will probably be fighting the encroaching seas ..

        • Anne

          Yes Maui, thought of something similar. In the meantime Key waxes lyrical about the beautiful unspoilt continent while in his mind he’s thinking oil, minerals, digging, drilling…

    • geoff 8.2

      Remember in the 90’s when Morgan was the evil lisping right wing economist of the nation? And now he’s like NZ’s version of Joseph Stiglitz. He’s having a go (not sure why) at ‘the greenies’ now, but maybe given another 20 years he’ll catch up a bit further. In the meantime he’s got a soccer team to run into the ground…

  9. Maui 9

    I’m surprised that Key did not realise that a life-style involving Honolulu-Auckland-Wellington-Scott Base-[SouthPole ?]-Wellington commuting would not involve potential health consequences such as deep vein thrombosis or jet lag, impairing prime ministerial judgment.

    But is it jet lag ? It seems to be a very politically convenient explanation.

  10. Populuxe1 10

    There are way too many homophobes on this site, left and right.

    • Pascal's bookie 10.1

      “in society”.

    • vto 10.2

      Such as? Evidence?

      • Populuxe1 10.2.1

        Forgot your own little diatribe about marriage and separate institutions already?
        Here, let me help:

        • vto

          There is no evidence of homophobia there but feel free to try pointing some out. Particulars and details lest your waning credibility drain further.

          • Populuxe1

            You might try offering a cogent excuse why you don’t want straight and gay people sharing the same institution of marriage for starters.

            • vto

              The reasons for a view along those broad lines have already been outlined.

              Now, back to your accusation that I am homophobic. Provide some detailed particulars and evidence or shut the fuck up. Bigot.

              • One Tāne Huna

                vto: Imo gay people who want to tie a knot in it should get their own institution and leave those straight people alone Open Mike 17/01/2013

                Gay marriage does nothing to straight people, so there is nothing to “leave alone”. Your “reason” doesn’t stack up.

                Oh, and it sure as hell looks like homophobia to me 🙂

                • vto

                  I am sure it can easily appear homophobic on a quick shallow reading. But a closer such reading will reveal that the opinion is about a place in the world for a group who want to do their own thing on their own. It is a view that is positive to that group, not negative to any other group. Subtle but real. By way of comparison, people who advocate for some separate institution for, say, just women are not automatically man-haters are they? Or are they? Many say they are, but those people are also shallow readers.

                  • Populuxe1

                    Try substituting “Maori” or “women” for “gay” and then try again.

                    • vto

                      I thought you said you knew the meaning of relevance.

                      edit: still waiting for your particular and detailed evidence

                  • One Tāne Huna

                    “…a group who want to do their own thing on their own…”

                    Yes, gay people who want to get married, for example, without interfering homophobes ruining their special day.

                    Or did you mean some other group? If so, please provide a citation so I can be sure they really exist.

                    • vto

                      Do we really need to regurgitate the entire marriage issue again? That’s not what this min-thread is about.

                      This is about Pop’s accusation. An accusation without evidence. There is still no evidence.

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      Yes, there is: your statements are evidence of your homophobia, which is the subject of this mini-thread

                      Now, who are this “group who want to do things on their own”? You mean yourself and some other bigots, yes?

                    • vto

                      Bullshite. That is not evidence of “an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people” and I have explained that. You are ignoring that explanation and that points to a deficiency in your approach to this mini-thread.

                      Just because one group wants to play in their own sandpit away from the other kiddies it does not mean they have “an extreme and irrational aversion” to those other kiddies.

                      What is so hard to understand about that simple proposition?

                      Your postion is akin to a Kiwiblog type ranter who claims those who want, as per previous example, to set-up some institution for women are man-haters.

                    • McFlock

                      Just because one group wants to play in their own sandpit away from the other kiddies it does not mean they have “an extreme and irrational aversion” to those other kiddies.

                      “away from the other kiddies” = “aversion“.
                      No logical reason for their desire = “irrational“.

                      We’re not talking about just not inviting someone to play poker of an evening. Marriage is a legal construct that, most of the time when it is applied, you personally have no idea about it. Two people in a car? No idea if they’re married. Both wearing wedding rings? Are they married to each other, or just LOTR geeks? But it can make legal procedures in extremis a whole lot easier.

                      Denying people legal recognition and rights (even if you personally might never know whether someone you encounter has used those rights) for no reason other than an irrational aversion is pretty “extreme“.

                    • vto

                      “away from the other kiddies” = “aversion“.
                      No logical reason for their desire = “irrational“.

                      McFlock, seriously? That does not equate to aversion. Did you wonder perhaps that outside of that short period of time playing in the sandpit they all might enjoy playing together and be friends? There is an abundance of shallow short thinking going on.

                      Or maybe when a couple of friends of mine go and have a catch up without me that means they have an aversion to me. That is just plain dumb.

                      And as for irrational, ffs. People right across humanity like keeping similar company. People of like kinds congregate. Be it religious, sporting, racial, financial, cultural, genderal. People enjoy hanging out with their own types. It is not irrational, it is exactly human behaviour.

                      Fail on both counts.

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      vto, please don’t “fail” to answer the question: who, specifically, in this context, are the “people who want to do things on their own”?

                    • vto

                      Off topic as previously explained. Where is the evidence of an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people?

                    • muzza

                      What happened to, *way too many*… Which was the accusation from Pop!

                      Go on then Pop, get cracking!

                    • McFlock

                      Definitely averse to sharing the sandpit. The example isn’t “oo, happy to play without you there”. The situation is “we do not want you in the sandpit with us. If you try and play even in part of the sandpit we aren’t using, we will stop you”.

                      That’s not even “separate but equal”.

                      “like” is “irrational”. Not rational. No logical basis. By your definition of “irrational”, no hatred, loathing, aversion or fear will be “irrational”, because humans across the world have them. So beating someone to death because you thought they walked like a gay man is not “irrational”, because people across the world attack and kill those who are different.

                      Edit: so muzz, what’s an acceptable number of homophobes in a forum, according to you?

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      “They” (you and the other bigots) want to do “things” (get married) “on their own” (alone together, or something), and this is not affected by anything that anyone else (including gay people) want to do, in any way whatsoever, except that perhaps I might be driving past, and yell “fuck you, you homophobic assholes” just as you were about to kiss the other bigot, which might put a damper on proceedings.

                      But I can’t see what gay people wanting to get married has to do with this sad spectacle.

                    • vto

                      Kids who want to play together on their own have an extreme and irrational aversion to all other kids.

                    • vto

                      Where is the evidence of an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people?

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      The evidence is that you want to interfere in their (homosexuals) right to marry, for no reason other than your membership of a tiny minority group.

                    • muzza

                      McFlock – Pop made the accusation of, *too many*, let’s hear him back it up!

                      Stop diverting !

                    • vto

                      You are trying very hard OTH, I’ll give you that. But you are still failing. Doesn’t meet the definition.

                      And fwiw they can have all the rights in the world. The other group just want their own space. Doesnt equate to …(insert definition again).

                      And I look forward to applying your approach and reasoning to this issue to other issues in the future.

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      vto: why should a tiny minority (of bigots) get to dictate to the rest of us, and force us to accept their (your) definition of marriage?

                      So what if you are offended (or outraged, or undermined, or saddened, or driven to insanity) by gay marriage? Gay marriage is not the pain in your mind: your sad prejudice is.

                    • vto

                      Keep trying to poke and prod one tane huna but I aint biting at your off-topic accusations and personal attacks.

                      The accusation of homophobia has demonstrably failed to be established and now I’m off.


                    • One Tāne Huna

                      vto, you don’t get to decide whether the label of bigot sticks to you:

                      “Off topic” – the topic is your hateful homophobia, and what a tiny minority you belong to, and the contempt which accrues as a result. I’m neither poking nor prodding, I’m just rubbing your nose in it.

                    • McFlock

                      only if you insist that marriage is exactly like a sand pit.

                      Oh, and muzz, for there not to be “far too many”, there needs to be a “too many”. Do you think that number exists in relation to homophobes?

                    • muzza

                      If Pops inference was along those lines, then perhaps he might validate that his original comment was aimed at VTO, otherwise its a throw away remark, which can be as arbitrary, as substituting in, *too many […….] on this site*!

                      In which case, one McFlock could be seen as too many eh!

                    • McFlock

                      “could be”?

                      But yes. And because “far too many” is a relative and subjective (not absolute or nominal) term, who is any of us to say pop it wrong?

                      BTW, what’s the purpose and scope of your current research project here? I just like to know when I’m being “experimented” on.

                    • muzza

                      We’re all being *experimented* on McFlock, in various ways, which can be considered both purpose, and scope!

                    • McFlock

                      Really? Normally some manner of ethical approval and indeed sanity is required to experiment on people.

                    • vto

                      OTH, that is pathetic. And rude. You have really let yourself down.

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      vto: “rude”

                      We covered this earlier: “So what if you are offended (or outraged, or undermined, or saddened, or driven to insanity) by gay marriage?”

                      What a hypocrite you are to whine about rudeness while maintaining your ill-mannered prejudice, and insistence that your minority opinion be treated with anything other than contempt.

                    • vto

                      Yes rude. Why don’t you re-read the thread. The accusation was homophobia. No evidence has been provided to fit the definition (but feel free to point which of the posts above has done this, if you can) and prove the kiwiblog type knee-jerk over reaction of both you and Pop.

                      The rudeness is the personal. You have called me sad, hateful, ill-mannered, contemptful, bigoted and in addition you continue to call me homophobic without substance, and prejudiced. It is all ther in black and white.

                      Nothing you have posted has established anything except that typical left wing arrogance and ignorance that anything that does not accord with your world view is somehow extreme and hateful. This drives people away from the left in exactly the same manner as right wing extremism drives people away from them.

                      You make baseless accusations that you cannot back-up. You are weak.

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      You are clearly incapable of understanding how your desire to interfere in other people’s relationships constitutes homophobia, but don’t worry: no-one else will have any trouble working it out.

                    • vto

                      You are now becoming boring and repetitive.

                      You cannot point to which of the posts above of yours or anyone elses has shown how the view expressed fits the definition of homophobia. You have failed. You should apologise for your mindless knee-jerk accusation.

                      Ever heard of that saying about a hole and digging?

                    • One Tāne Huna

                      Imo gay people who want to tie a knot in it should get their own institution and leave those straight people alone ffs instead of gate-crashing someone else’s party.

                      The institution of marriage doesn’t belong to you. To use your stupid metaphor, it isn’t your party, and gay people are invited. So fuck off, bigot.

                    • vto

                      wooooooooo – first knee-jerk mindless extremism and now anger. You have now successfully completed the entire route to failuredom.


                    • One Tāne Huna

                      Yeah whatever. Got a certificate that says you own the institution of marriage? Didn’t think so.

      • Populuxe1 10.2.2

        And of course the likes of Kiwi_Prometheus. And have we already forgotten the shenanigans surrounding Q— C—-gate?

  11. xtasy 11

    Political journalists and commenters are interested in a number of more or less petty things, it seems, but have evidently LITTLE or NO interested in people on welfare facing the most radical and draconian reforms in at least a generation here in NZ.

    So I was having to learn once again, when reading Bryce Edward’s “political roundup” today, for the summer period now nearing the end when Parliament slowly returns to business late this month.


    It is astonishing that debate about drones, about a PM fainting, about personality politics, apart from admittedly some important issues, but otherwise lots of side-show matters, dominate the tabloids, the online media, the newsmedia in general here in NZ.

    NO mention of the most substantial welfare reforms at all. That tells me, I belong to a group of people that have no right to exist, as whatever I and others face is NOT relevant at all.

    Mabe bring in a system now to do away with us – for good, so we do not “stain” the social and political environment with our blemished, useless, “bludger-like” existence?

    • muzza 11.1

      Xtasy you hit on an interesting train of thought here…

      The strategy appears to be long and , to convince an entire nation, that there is no more important issues/messages than what the MSM chose to convey, creating an environment of perceived safety, actual complacency, and total apathy! It looks like the strategy has been well bedded in NZ, and elsewhere.

      Also, while convincing the, *entire nation* (those wasting energy following MSM), that there is no threat to them, while at the same time exposing the threat (to those such as yourself), by simply ignoring the issues which the *threats* consists of. Additionally the disenfranchising of huge numbers of people that *switch off* from MSM and politics altogether, but simultaneously keeping just enough people engaged with the dros served up, to maintain some, *order*

      There’s an ever growing number of *groups*, which are, effectively deemed irrelevant, and there is an ever growing number of *groups*, who are yet to realise that they were deemed *irrelevant* years back also. Many are busy putting the boot into beneficiaries, and other vulnerable groups, as they can’t see the threat to *their group*, and thus act out accordingly!

      Strategically, one has to *admire* the *techniques*, but equally, when as blatant as the tactics employed have been, one has to accept that a turn around in NZ, is unlikely to eventuate!

      • xtasy 11.1.1

        muzza –

        Yes, depressing that is.

        But what is being presented to us as the supposed “reality”, perceived “security”, and as the “convention of the presence”, that will inevitably get “boring” to the majority, so there may be hope that they stumble across any such not noticed “groups” and “re-discover” that there is another world around them out there. They may then actually take an interest and start opening their mind.

        I admit though, it is a slim chance of that happening. Meeting homeless, beggars, scruffily clothed and neglected poor will possibly in most cases have the opposite effect. People will appreciate their own security, in the best case make a little donation to a welfare agency, but then move on back home to their safe suburban home.

        In reality it is not so much media communication of a sense of “security”, it is a communication of well-selected “threats” that are presented to the wider public and media consumer, this being CRIME.

        Look at the APN and Fairfax websites, look at the TV news, listen to radio (even increasingly also National Radio). Crime, accidents, disaster news, that is always at the beginning and top of the news in most news presentations now. So the public are conditioned to be extra sensitive to crime and disaster, which again feeds feelings for a need of “security”, which again misleads most to support the status quo system, as any change will be associated with insecurity and risks.

        That is also, what keeps this present government pretty safely in place.

  12. Populuxe1 12

    It’s the sort of attitude I expect from the right, but theoretically one would hope that the left was a tad more progressive.

    • vto 12.1

      Pop, your attitude that anyone who has a view on gay-straight issues that is opposed to your own is homophobic is the attitude to be expected from the right, just switched around like looking in a mirror. See my last reply to oth.

  13. Elizabeth Bourchier 13


    It is intersting to look back a few years on how David Shearer and Phil Goff were perceived by the right before David became Leader.

    The link above to David Farrar’s research in April ’09, six months after Phil took over from Helen is quite chilling.

    “Phil Goff has been shifting Labour more towards the centre, with the departure of Helen Clark and Michael Cullen. He is attacking National for not sticking with tax cuts, he let Clayton Cosgrove attack over Maori prison units and he is refusing to back Maori seats on the Auckland Council. Plus Labour are backing most of the RMA changes and voted to repeal the EFA.

    But the extent to which Goff wants to pull Labour away from the left astonishes even me. As we all know, David Shearer is his hand picked candidate for Mt Albert – his former school friend and Ministerial advisor.”

    ……..and these quotes are from David Farrar!

    “Now I agree with Shearer, but I can imagine it is going to be very uncomfortable for Labour when he is an MP. Everytime Goff or King gets up to accuse the Government of having a privatisation agenda, the Nats will laugh and remind them that they have an MP who supports privatising the army. And when you consider Labour’s entire strategy is to basically label everything National does is as privatisation, well Naional can’t wait until Shearer is an MP. Hell, they are probably tempted to endorse him themselves.”

    • Anne 13.1

      As we all know, David Shearer is his hand picked candidate for Mt Albert – his former school friend…

      ‘School friend’ was a MSM created myth. They went to the same high school but at different times. They didn’t know each other until years later. My understanding at the time is that it was Phil Twyford (who was a close friend forged at a time both were linked to the UN) who persuaded Shearer to return to NZ and stand for Mt. Albert. That is not to say Goff didn’t fully support the nomination, but these things are never quite as simple as has been suggested.

      It’ true, Goff was at the Right end of the Labour Party but, to be fair to him, he did shift further to the Left during the 2011 campaign. But it was too late! Everything was “too late” and God knows how many members (including me) tried to tell them. This is where the BIG DISCONNECT first came in to the picture – at least in recent times.

      • Anne 13.1.1

        Or was it a Farrar created myth? Doesn’t really matter – they live in each others’ pockets.

  14. McFlock 14

    Another Roy Morgan. 4% higher than the same period last year…. [hunkers down] 😉

    • KhandallaViper 14.1



      National back up a little bit, Labour back down to 31.5%

      • The Al1en 14.1.1

        Can’t wait for the party to spin that one away. What happened to trends and momentum and other such bullshit?

        I asked on red alert for predictions of where Shearer’s Labour should be sitting in the polls if they are to mount a successful challenge in 2014
        No one answered.
        I’m guessing it’s something to do with the top table being held to account if they are way off, like I suspect they will be in 2015

      • Coronial Typer 14.1.2

        Of course they all deserve a rest but … I mean God I’d had enough “resting” with my in-laws after week 1!

        January is the time to seize back and hold the political agenda for the year ahead.

        Journalists are begging for stories. Especially stories about the year ahead. Predictions.

        So far Labour have put Shearer up to comment just once, so we now have to endure a further week of stories about the Antarctic for God’s sake.

        Shearer has made a massive strategic mistake.Nothing against Chippie being night-watchiman per se, but it really needed that apparent impending game-changer speech to be this week or last, not in late January.

        Last week someone with some nous and the capability to do good political stunts needed to to blow the housing story out of the water. Like set fire to a derelict state house and call the cameras and then help put it out talking about housing stock, or live a week with a homeless family, or promise to hand over this years’ salary to a housing trust and then go help them build a house in a weekend, or hijack the Hobsonville ferry opening coming up with a pointed speech to camera, or go to a house auction with a couple and pay their house deposit to the bank out of their own MPs pocket or indeed out of an LEC’s and do it with cameras rolling, God it’s not hard to think of something beyond sending another press release out. Paul Holmes was a master of the stunt, as was Bob Harvey in his prime. Sigh.

        With Aucklands Unitary Plan hearings, and the Christchurch rebuilt accelerating, this is the year for housing as a gamechanger, and Labour has the policy to do it.

        After all the best way to predict the future, is to make it happen. Instead these polls.

        So we’ll end up next election about 50-50 as a bunch. I should just relax. Sigh. Relax.

        • McFlock

          jan 2013: 31.5%
          jan 2012: 27.5
          jan 2011: 29
          jan 2010: 30
          jan 2009: 33

          When did Shearer start again?

          January usually drops for opposition, mostly because (IMO) the government gets junkets to antarctica while opposition mps: not so much.

          • Coronial Typer

            the standard definition of stupidity being to do the same thing over and over again, expecting something different to happen. whatever Labour have been doing since 2009, this January it was time to do something different. Shearer is not culpable for the era prior to him, of course, but he is responsible for the results now. He had a fallow January field for media and is so far reaping the rewards of doing the same thing over and over again.

            • McFlock

              The dude gained 4% over the previous year’s january dip, reversing 4 years of steady decline at that point. In his first year as leader.

              31.5% sucks, but it’s better than 27.5%.

              Now, there’s many a slip ‘twixt dress and drawers, and I’m still looking to see some 35% threshold breakers, but performance-wise it’s not a major tragedy unless key calls a chardonnay-snap election.

              • The Al1en

                So when do you hope to see those 35% threshold breakers?

                And using those figures and logic, Shearer is less popular than Goff in his first months as leader. Not really a win, aye.
                Maybe I should ask when do you expect Shearer to hit 33% ?

                • McFlock

                  Actually I think I wrote something about one or two RM polls 35% by feb leadership vote waiting before beginning to think it looks like Labour’s back in the doldrums. Shearer personally? probably not until next year. opposition bias and all. Haven’t really looked at party vs leader stats though.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Today, Labour =31.5%.
                    2 months ago November 2012, Labour = 31.5% (+/- 0.5%)
                    7 months ago June 2012, Labour = 31.5% (+/- 0.5%)
                    12 months ago Feb 2012, Labour = 31.5% (+/- 0.5%)
                    19 months ago July 2011, Labour = 31.5% (+/- 0.5%)
                    22 months ago April 2011, Labour = 31.5% (+/- 0.5%)

                    There’s definitely consistency here for Labour, not so sure that it’s an upward trending one though.

                    • McFlock

                      interesting sample intervals there: 2, 5, 5,7,3…

                      Nice methodology for cherry picking, not so much for looking at trends.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Just demonstrating natural variability about a mean, McFlock. A student t-test will show that to you. Nothing unfair there. If you want me to give you more data points sitting right on top of 31.5% I can, but they are sitting there for you to see.

                    • McFlock

                      The point being that you don’t know whether there is actual improvement. Especially given 2011 Labour was going down, so to stay in approximately (for a given value of approximate) the same place labour actually needs to have improved in the last 12 months.

                      It’s called “regaining lost ground”. And shearer didn’t lose the ground.

    • Hehe an optimist would notice that.

      A pessimist, or is that a realist, would look at Labour at 31.5% and say “what the … “

    • Another Viper 14.3

      The average of the 24 Roy Morgan polls since Jan 2012 is 46% for National and 31% for Labour.
      No F@c&ing change. Shearer has to fire Mallard immediately. The strategy is F@c&ed!
      We are not winning this way.
      We are loosing this way.
      Does Shearer not see that he is surrounded by the same twits who lost in 2011?

      Please change something. This is the most painful disaster to watch.
      Key’s idiot crew screw up everything and we can’t take a single percentage point off them!’

    • felixviper 14.4

      Meh, not a bad poll if the goal is to hang on by the skin of your teeth. If the goal is to win an election though, nothing to write home about.

  15. You may like to know that on the Concert program pm 24 January there is a program of American protest song ,Trade Union songs and old socialist songs . Should be worth a listen .

  16. You may like to know that on the Concert program 7. pm 24 January there is a program of American protest song ,Trade Union songs and old socialist songs . Should be worth a listen .

    • vto 16.1

      Excellent. We spend some lots of time in a part of the country where these things are still regularly sung and strummed. It’s like stepping back in time. Reaching back to feel the times. Tis quite something. Woody Guthrie and the like. Mining songs. Old ones.

      Meanwhile this is a bit of a funny version of one of me fave’s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPQVvQfblzY

    • Anne 16.2

      The most famous – and haunting – of them all?

  17. Well old smile and wave is back. Already the photos are appearing in the press. Nothing escapes this man He got into the act regarding the accident involving the Bethlehem School.
    However surely the most outrageous photo is the one on page 3 of to-day’s Herald . What a buffoon what has Aotearoa done to deserve this clown. .

  18. karol 18

    RNZ Press Release, just up – process started to search for a new CEO. Richard Griffin takes the opportunity to talk up RNZ’s success. There’s also a link to RNZ’s page on the CEO role. And that page links to the RNZ Charter.

    I think RNZ is the only public service broadcaster we now have. I like the Charter, and think RNZ does fulfil a lot of it, but not as much as I would like.

    Charter –

    (1) The functions of the public radio company shall be to provide innovative, comprehensive, and independent broadcasting services of a high standard and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, to provide –
    (a) Programmes which contribute toward intellectual, scientific, cultural, spiritual, and ethical development, promote informed debate, and stimulate critical thought; and
    (b) A range of New Zealand programmes, including information, special interest, and entertainment programmes, and programmes which reflect New Zealand’s cultural diversity, including Maori language and culture; and

    (c) Programmes which provide for varied interests and a full range of age groups within the community, including information, educational, special interest, and entertainment programmes; and …

    f) Comprehensive, independent, impartial, and balanced national news services and current affairs, including items with a regional perspective; and…

    (g) Comprehensive, independent, impartial, and balanced ….

    It isn’t always as critical and in-depth as I would like these days. Impartiality is an impossibility to achieve, but a PBS should aim for a diversity of perspectives, but also to follow the evidence. RNZ could do better on that IMO, and also more to cater to the interests of younger listeners.

    • Another Viper 18.1


      The Pink Postman is only trying to draw debate awsy from the setback in the polls.

      Watch the pattern.

      It repeats itself.

      She/he works around the same hours as TRP….

      • karol 18.1.1

        I don’t see the point in such tactics. If it’s an issue of interest, people continuing discussing a topic long after other topics have been added below, on Open Mike.

      • Anne 18.1.2

        I don’t believe it’s anything of the sort AV. PP has been around The Standard for a few years now and he (‘he’ note) is an elderly Labour supporter (had his 80th last year from memory) who nearly always posts on subjects he’s interested in regardless of whether they are under discussion or not. He is a Londoner (I think) from way back and has stayed true to the Labour cause all his life. Don’t always agree with him, but he’s an honest, retired working man and I doubt he would know what you’re talking about.

    • geoff 18.2

      (h) Under no circumstances should Matthew Hooton be allowed air-time

  19. karol 19

    Geez. Sydney’s hottest day on record (by a fraction of a degree over a 1939 temp). I sympathise. I almost passed out one day at work, in western Sydney once – no air conditioning, had to sit down for a while. Temperatures getting into the 40s are getting beyond what I can take. And feeling like I was about to pass out is no fun either.

  20. bobo 20

    “Mr Smuggles” was GCSB FBI Kim dotcom link ?


  21. New Zealand needs a decent left wing radio station, especially since Radio NZ became radio National, and since state tv was taken over totally by neo liberals. Is the standard and left blogs the only truly free and honest media left in New Zealand?

  22. Ariadna 22

    Help Blue eye, help, otherwise I can’t help you.

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