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Open mike 18/01/2015

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, January 18th, 2015 - 250 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeThe Authors of The Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm.

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

250 comments on “Open mike 18/01/2015 ”

  1. Paul 1

    ‘Paris is a warning: there is no insulation from our wars’
    Seamus Milne Guardian

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/15/paris-warning-no-insulation-wars-arab-muslim-world

  2. (heh..!..just found this..)

    “..Artist reimagines every sign of the zodiac as a monster..”

    (ed:..as a sagittarius i’m quite comfortable with my monster..

    ..but others won’t be so happy with theirs..

    ..i mean..poor pisces..!..will it never end for them..?..

    ..virgo should be happy with theirs..

    ..and/but scorpio is pretty much what you wd expect..)

    (cont..)

    http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/artist-reimagines-every-sign-of-the-zodiac-as-a-monster-and-its-incredible–lJFvePOxsx

  3. Morrissey 3

    Je ne suis pas la personnification du racisme;
    Je suis Julian.

    Here’s the reason they want to destroy Julian Assange. The sheep who obediently marched in those government-sponsored charades in France should watch this….

  4. (and this is kinda interesting – both who is saying it – and what he has been saying..)

    “..Paris attacks: Jean-Marie Le Pen says French terror attacks were work of Western intelligence..

    ..The Charlie Hebdo massacre may have been the work of an ‘intelligence agency –

    – working with the connivance of French authorities –

    – according to Jean-Marie Le Pen – founder of the far right Front National.

    In an interview with a virulently anti-Western Russian newspaper – Mr Le Pen (86) gave credence to conspiracy theories circulating on the internet –

    – suggesting that the attack was the work of American or Israeli agents –

    – seeking to foment a civil war between Islam and the West..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-jeanmarie-le-pen-says-french-terror-attacks-were-work-of-western-intelligence-9985047.html

    (should we steel ourselves for the arrival of trp..?

    ..mounting a stout-defence for the official-story..)

    • Morrissey 4.1

      Le Pen’s crazy daughter had a lot to say about this too.

    • Te Reo Putake 4.2

      Crikey, that’s a new low for you, Phil. Even at your most addled, I never thought you’d piggyback off a neo nazi. Are you really sure the drugs are working?

      • phillip ure 4.2.1

        you have no sense of curiousity about what he is saying..?

        ..really..?

        ..and how exactly am i ‘piggy-backing off him’..?

        ..and points for appearing right on cue – clutching predicted-message..eh..?

        ..i also find it interesting him blowing the whistle on something he wd support the outcome of..

        ..namely war between islam and the west..

        ..these slivers/splinters don’t pique yr curiousity in the slightest..?

        ..really..?

        ..and you dismiss the idea without viewing/hearing any evidence..?

        ..like you do in other cases..?

        ..i guess there is a pattern there..

        • phillip ure 4.2.1.1

          and it’s not ‘drugs’…it’s drug..

          ..these days..i smoke pot only..

          ..and i don’t use yr drug..booze…

          ..who wd/shd be the least ‘addled’..?

          ..(both under the influence – and the day after..?..mm..?..)

          ..the pot-smoker..?

          ..or the pisshead..?

      • Morrissey 4.2.2

        Speaking of piggybacking off a neo nazi, I wonder if this is marginally relevant. I think he asked some of the young women at the party to do something similar….
        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d3_1207044480

        • Te Reo Putake 4.2.2.1

          Not the least bit relevant. Nothing neo-nazi about it all, which is why Mosley won damages against the News of the World for saying what you’ve just insinuated. Well done, Moz. You are the Rupert Murdoch of the North Shore 😉

          • Morrissey 4.2.2.1.1

            You are the Rupert Murdoch of the North Shore

            Well, minus the horrid wife, and the idiot sons. And the money.

    • vto 4.3

      “should we steel ourselves for the arrival of trp..?”

      Yes there is most definitely a pattern with trp and “official stories”……

      makes you wonder ……

      • phillip ure 4.3.1

        perhaps he is one who is over-awed by the sight/thought of a firmly-gripped clip-board..?

      • Te Reo Putake 4.3.2

        Yep, I admit it. I’m firmly attached to the clipboard of reality. Back in the garage with my bullshit detector … Sing it Brother Joe!

        My main beef is that mindless bollocks such as we’ve seen here the last couple of days are a distraction from the work that needs to be done. And a diversion from the realities of class politics. It’s sad when people who genuinely want to understand what is going on in the world get sidetracked into intellectual cul de sacs. It only serves the purposes of capitalism for us to waste time on weirdo conspiracies.

        That most of these conspiracies are right wing at their heart is even more ironic. Two days on a left wing blog debating conservative fantasies is two days we’re not educating, agitating or organising.

        Good luck to the both of ya, anyway. I’m pretty sure your hearts are in the right place.

        • The Murphey 4.3.2.1

          Q. Do you confuse ‘bs detector’ for ego ?

          • Te Reo Putake 4.3.2.1.1

            Nope. I’m always happy to be proven wrong and I always put my hand up when I make a mistake*. Sure, it doesn’t happen often, because I hardly ever post without checking the facts. And I always re-read my comments for errors, ommisions and spelling mistakes after posting. As the lawyers say, never ask a question you don’t know the answer to.

            You seem to be confusing ego with certainty. When I post here, and when I make statements in real life, I am certain of what I say and I will argue my corner. If actual, proven facts are presented that weaken or even disprove my position, then I acknowledge them appropriately. I’ve learned a hell of a lot from other contributers on TS over the years. I’d like to think readers have learned a modest amount from me too.

            Anyhoo, off to ‘H’ town to hang out with the rellies. Catch ya later.

            *I was wrong in one aspect of the debate with CV about WTC 7. Fire did play a part and I’m grateful to him that I now know that.

            • phillip ure 4.3.2.1.1.1

              “.. I’m always happy to be proven wrong and I always put my hand up when I make a mistake*..”

              ..’always’..eh..?

              ..got some links for that..?

              • Te Reo Putake

                You’re not in a position to ask for proof, Phil. When you were caught telling porkie pies the other day, you weaselled out big time. If you have any evidence that I don’t follow the ethical standards I’ve outlined feel free to post the evidence. You won’t, coz you can’t.

        • phillip ure 4.3.2.2

          “.. is two days we’re not educating, agitating or organising..”

          ..most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time..eh..?

          ..so..organise/agitate away..!

          ..what’s on yr mind..?

    • mikesh 4.4

      There seem to be a number of curious things about the Hebdo affair:
      1. The suicide (or was it a murder dressed up to look like suicide) of the investigating officer.
      2. The fact that the person originally thought to have been the driver of the getaway vehicle turned out to have an alibi.
      3. The fact that the Kourachi brothers were identified through an ID found in the getaway car. Or was it left there by the real perpetrators in order to frame the Kourachis?
      4. One would also have to ask whether the cry that “Allah has been avenged” was just an act.
      The theory that the whole affair was a “false flag” operation would certainly seem to have legs.

      • Colonial Rawshark 4.4.1

        It certainly does not all add up.

        On another note, have a look at this photo of the ‘world leaders Charlie Hebdo solidarity march’. Turns out these all important people were nowhere near the marchers, it was a set up photo op.

        http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-17/truth-behind-cherlie-hebdo-solidarity-photo-op

        • phillip ure 4.4.1.1

          then there is that seemingly doctored clip of the shooters and the car..

          ..a mark suddenly appearing on the road from one frame to the next..(indicating multiple-takes spliced/edited into one..)

          ..(and yes..the id-cards left in the car was pretty convenient..)

          ..then there is the question of all those rooftop shots/video-footage of the getaway..

          ..these people with cameras at the ready..who just happened to be perched on various surroundng roofs..

          ..(roofs not normally accesible to residents..

          ..then there has been the trumpeted-‘evidence’ of an association with the underwear-bomber..as proof of them being terrorists by association..

          ..funny story..!..it turns out the underwear-bomber was/is a cia-operative..working undercover..a honey-trap..

          ..(make of all that what you will..

          ..hang on..!..i can hear/see ‘official-story’ t.r.p. approaching..

          ..and yes..!..he does have a clipboard clutched to his bosom..

          ..and is wielding an officious-brow..

          ..i think he has some ‘organising/agitating’ in mind..

          ..steel yrslves..!..)

          • Colonial Rawshark 4.4.1.1.1

            personally I’m quite surprised that more questions aren’t being asked about what the intelligence services knew and when they knew it. Given that at least some of the perps were on watchlists and had confirmed terrorist associations.

            • Paul 4.4.1.1.1.1

              Dr Paul Roberts
              ” Every time I hear government claims without real evidence, I remember Saddam Hussein’s “weapons of mass destruction,” Assad’s “use of chemical weapons,” and Iran’s “nuclear weapons program.”

          • marty mars 4.4.1.1.2

            I’ll say it again – false false flag

            the mark – do you think they’d leave the/a mark cos they forgot/made a mistake and really? a mark on the road? umm a bit ’80’s that one

            the id – so convenient and also obvious – too obvious and convenient

            the shot – they are supposedly filming and they can’t get a 101 hollywood stunt together – really?

            would more people have believed if there wasn’t film/video? Can I say yep? – yep.

            This is a false false flag op – the clues left are basic and silly and recorded wtf? come on, think about it…

    • Murray Rawshark 4.5

      Some of us have always claimed that conspiracy theories are far more useful to the right, and often promoted by right wingers. Thanks for the support, Mr. Ure.

      • phillip ure 4.5.1

        so..’conspiracy-theories’ are one size fits all..eh…?

        ..and don’t try and conflate col and his chem-trails into this…

        • Murray Rawshark 4.5.1.1

          I’ve never seen Colon try to spread the chemtrails idiocy. I have seen it happen on TS.
          Can you explain what a “perfect parabolic curve” is as regards to a flightpath, and why it is significant?

          • phillip ure 4.5.1.1.1

            ask mr/ms google..

            ..and the ‘significance’ is the difficulty of executing such a flight-path..

            ..once again..by a pilot who a few weeks previously was unable to fly a cessna..

            ..but here..he few into new york..

            ..and then executed that perfect parabolic-curve back into the building..

            ..believable..?..much..?

            ..(if the answer is ‘yes’..

            ..wanna buy a bridge..?..)

            • McFlock 4.5.1.1.1.1

              Ah, the “I promise I know what it is, but I refuse to explain it to a do-do head” gambit. Well played, sir. /sarc

              • no..googling parabolic curve will inform him far better than my babbled answer/description..

                ..and i answered his significance-question..

                ..yet another lower-orifice pluck from flock..

                ..’well played sir’..

                • Te Reo Putake

                  The problem with your perfect parabolic curve is the plane you assign it to didn’t actually execute one. Two of the four did make what might be described as parabolic turns, but not the plane to hit the second tower, which actually nearly missed the target altogether. It’s not a surprise that the planes flew relatively smoothly, it’s what they’re designed to do. Even with the autopilot off, they are computer controlled and follow template flight parameters.

                  So, basically, you still have no evidence of anything unusual beyond what we already know. Which is obviously no surprise to anyone who is familiar with your previous postings on any subject. Cough*drug fucked* cough.

                  • “..The problem with your perfect parabolic curve is the plane you assign it to didn’t actually execute one…”

                    do you have a link for that..?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Yes. Why don’t you?

                    • how about posting it..?

                      ..how can u resist proving me wrong..eh..?

                      ..i’m calling lower-orifice-pluck..!

                    • McFlock

                      Phil-chete doesn’t link. Everyone else links for phil-chete.
                      🙄

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      It’s your bollox claim, Phil. Pony up, chump.

                      edit: McFlock’s on to it.

                    • @ flock..

                      ..no..i gained that piece of information some time ago..

                      ..those two had never thought/heard of this before tonite..

                      ..if they have no links for their definitive-facts/claims..

                      ..they are just orifice-plucks..

                      ..and they are both complete bullshit-artists..

                      ..q.e.d..

                    • McFlock

                      ..those two had never thought/heard of this before tonite..

                      lol
                      Even if we haven’t heard truthifers on the interwebs bringing up that bullshit ever before, you raised it just yesterday.

                      ..short-term memory issues, eh.. /sarc

                    • i have known it for some time..

                      ..what do u find so hard to understand about that..?

                    • McFlock

                      I was pointing out your assertion that TRP et all had never heard your parabolic bullshit before tonight, when you ranted about it just yeaterday.

                      I mean, you claim to have known it all this time, but without a link it might just be something that swam into your little brain between puffs.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You’ve ‘known it’. Ho fucken’ ho. You couldn’t even get off an overdue library book fine with a response that weak. Evidence, Phil. The adults would like some evidence for your bogus and irrelevent claim. Put the pipe down for a moment and see if you can’t find some, there’s a good chap.

            • Murray Rawshark 4.5.1.1.1.2

              I know what a parabolic curve is. It’s a projectile trajectory in the absence of air resistance. It’s what you get with a central attractive force, which in the vertical case is given by gravity.

              I just have no idea why it’s relevant here. The plane didn’t do a huge ballistic trajectory in the sky before it hit. I don’t expect you to answer because, as is very common, you’ve heard some words somewhere and stuck them together.

              • “.. The plane didn’t do a huge ballistic trajectory in the sky before it hit. ..”

                do you have a link for that..?

                • Murray Rawshark

                  As I thought. You have no idea.

                  • and you have no link..

                    ..just another lower-orifice-pluck..eh..?

                    l.o.p’s to the left of me..

                    ..and l.o.p’s to the right of me..

                    ..they are coming in thick and fast..

                    ..i do hope you are both washing yr hands..

                    ..after plucking..

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      Keep digging.

                    • u got nuthin’..eh..?

                      ..just as i thought/called it..

                      ..and did you wash yr hands after digging it out..?

                    • and we haven’t even gone near the stockmarket anomalies..

                      ..the blips in sharetrading to post-attack profit..pre-attack..

                      ..the profits to come from what wd be obvious post-attack market moves by those shares/companies..

                      ..snail-trail after snail-trail..

                      ..there was the fact the buildings were riddled with asbestos..and the owner faced huge retro-refitting costs..

                      ..problem solved when the buildings came down..

                      ..oh..!..and the building insurance was ramped up just before the attack..

                      ..then there is all the evidence from the police/firemen..of the explosions as the building came down..

                      ..the controlled demolition explosions..(as they describe them..

                      ..what r yr orifice-plucks/bullshit-vomits for those..?

                      ..oh braying-fools..!

  5. Tinfoilhat 5

    …oh I can’t be bothered… The weather’s too lovely …

  6. in yesterdays om the Aotearoa/NZ thingy came up and it got me thinking, so i posted this

    “if it was me I’d revert back to all the original names – this will provide work (all the new signage, interpretations for each town, all the new paperwork) for many, a sense of history for many as they argue left, right and centre, it will get people into politics as again their true colours come out as we have seen with the big ‘h’ in Whanganui, it will create tourism as this could be a big campaign to bring people over – ecocultural tourism is popular, it will create slightly more equality as tangata whenua see their language out their more and their stories and history, it will create better relationships between people as the pronunciation is discussed, corrected and complimented, and so on and I good carry on for quite a while with the benefits.”

    but the more I think about this the more enthusiastic I feel – there are so many benefits and so few downsides – in fact I can’t think of any negatives.

    What other benefits would this accrue?

    • b waghorn 6.1

      Te Ika O Maui sound s so much better than norff island don’t it?

      • marty mars 6.1.1

        yep – I also find the north south island namage to be particularly offensive and stupid.

        • phillip ure 6.1.1.1

          and it could not be more lacking in imagination/flair..

          ..why didn’t they call them – this way – and that way..?

          ..(it shows as much care..)

          ..and i sense a reactionary-meme arising…

          ..demanding rangitoto be re-named east island..

          ..they could call themselves/the meme k.i.s…’keep it simple!’..

        • weka 6.1.1.2

          Changing the names would be worth it just to use it as an opportunity to teach people how to pronounce te reo. But the other benefits, like why places have the names they do and how knowing them and using the names would change our relationship to the land and to Te Ao Māori, these benefits would be awesome for all of us (well most of us, I’m sure some would be put out by it).

          “yep – I also find the north south island namage to be particularly offensive and stupid.”

          How come?

          What would we call NZ? Might get some resistance from the south for Aotearoa 😉

          • cricklewood 6.1.1.2.1

            Agree 100%, once understood, the maori names convey so much more meaning and for that matter history to a place. If someone were to ask me our highest mountain I would say Aoraki for example.
            Personally I favour te reo becoming a compulsory subject in our primary schools and this would tie in very well with greater use of the maori names for our landmarks.
            I feel the sense of understanding of the various names etc would come along way to uniting the people in NZ and help give us all something of a common understanding.
            I really cant see a downside, its well proven the learning of a second language at a young age is extremely beneficial and te reo gives us our own identify.

            • weka 6.1.1.2.1.1

              Completely agree. Learning te reo, esp young, also teaches people to think differently because it’s not the language of a reductionist/dualistic/mechanistic culture. I guess you could technically learn te reo just learning the words and grammar, but the way it’s taught generally is that you have to learn the world view too.

              The only downside I can see is the shit fight that would ensue from the resistance of the white supremacy lot if this were to happen. The fundamentalist atheists would probably have a problem too.

              • cricklewood

                Thing is I think attitudes are changing, albeit slowly so I think its a fight worth having, after all gay marriage came to pass. Sure it will take time but I think the benefits for society will be far reaching esp after 10 or so years of such a policy. I realize the challenge will be actually getting the teaching depth but if that means we start with words and grammar so be it…
                It would be nice if perhaps Labour would be brave and start talking about it certainly i think it will do more for society going forward than say a cgt.
                Interestingly I note a survey in a Sunday paper strongly in favour of assisted suicide, I was disappointed that the members bill was pulled so it wasn’t a ‘distraction’ before the election I thought it showed a lack of courage for a debate worth having just because it might cost votes. Hopefully under Andrew Little there will be the stomach for fights like this I think if some character and principal is shown voters will come back.

                • weka

                  Some smart political type needs to make the argument for te reo in primary schools so that it appeals to a wide range of NZers (or at least left voting ones).

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    We can’t even agree to get hungry Kiwi kids fed in schools.

                    • weka

                      It’s only the selfish lot that don’t want to do that. Pretty sure everyone else is good to go.

                    • millsy

                      “It’s only the selfish lot that don’t want to do that. Pretty sure everyone else is good to go”

                      Ironically it is the ‘selfish lot’ that got the school milk when they grew up. And all they did was complain about how sour it was.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The fundamentalist atheists would probably have a problem too.

                I doubt that.

                • weka

                  You don’t think they would mind karakia in primary schools? Or teaching te reo in the context of Māori cultural values that they vehemently diagree with? That would be great if true.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Religion shouldn’t be in schools but children should be taught about religion in schools.

                    • weka

                      That doesn’t really answer the question sorry.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      They would mind karakia being in schools as part of the day but wouldn’t mind the children being taught about karakia.

                    • weka

                      Te reo means learning and using karakia. And waiata that are religious hymns. That means you learn the prayers and songs and they are used as part of the class, to teach the language and the culture.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      There’s a difference between in and about.

                      Basically, you wouldn’t start the class with a prayer/karakia but you would learn about them and probably even learn some during class on Te Reo.

                    • weka

                      Right, so what you are saying is that fundamentalist atheist would have a problem with how te reo is taught and would want that changed. Which was my original point.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The atheists wouldn’t have a problem with Te Reo being taught. They’d have a problem with it being used as a normal, everyday part of school. As an example they wouldn’t be keen on the school being opened by any sort of prayer or karakia. That’s not teaching, that’s indoctrination.

                      Would you be happy if the school principle or class teacher started every day with a prayer to the FSM?

            • Murray Rawshark 6.1.1.2.1.2

              I’d say Aorangi. The change from ng to k over such a short time demonstrates just how quickly languages evolve.

              • John Shears

                @ Murray Rawshark
                Aoraki is Aorangi is Mt Cook . Ngai Tahu say Aoraki , North Island Maori say Aorangi as I understand it.

                • Murray Rawshark

                  I know. I’m from Te Tai Tokerau. Ngati Wai country. I’d never heard Aoraki until I visited the South Island.

                  I was hinting at how fast Te Reo had evolved in maybe six or seven hundred years, maybe less. That change had taken place over the time that Te Wai Pounamu had been inhabited.

          • Clemgeopin 6.1.1.2.2

            What would we call NZ?

            nuslund?

        • phillip ure 6.1.1.3

          te reo-ing names is fun..

          ..rodney hide becomes toko whakapunpuni..

          ..and mat hooton becomes rirapurapa koukou..

          ..whoar..!

          ..i wonder how they feel bout that…?

          ..and of course..hone ki…

          ..russel norman…rata nomana..

          ..i could go on and on..

    • it will also stop tourists annoying locals with the question:

      ..’where is ‘old zealand’..?’

      phonetically..it is much nicer/more pleasant to say..

      ..a-o-tea-roa just rolls off the tongue..

      ..and lands in the listeners’ ear with a satisfying splat!..

      ..whereas ‘noo-zeal-ind’ is more of a constipated gasp!..

      ..aotearoa also looks good on a t-shirt/logo..

      ..and alludes to the exotic/special nature of the country..

      ..whereas new zealand sounds like a branch-office/afterthought (c.f..’where is old zealand?’..)

    • Pete George 6.3

      And I largely agree with mm, except that I don’t think all names need to change, like when there’s no significant history of a local name or when a new name is more appropriate. For example I think names like Auckland or Dunedin represent something specifically modern and different to various localities and landmarks within them (like Maungakiekie / One Tree Hill which should at least have a dual name).

      Original/local names generally mean more to me than many of the changed names, for example (Mount) Taranaki is appropriate, and John Perceval, 2nd Earl of Egmont means nothing to me.

      Mt Cook and Aoraki have a stronger case to retain dual names due to the historical significance of both.

      Re negatives – try posting about this at Kiwiblog and you’ll get a very negative reaction, which will represent a very vocal minority. And a wider number will probably be reluctant. But if it’s done reasonably and incrementally then it should at least end up being positive.

      • marty mars 6.3.1

        there is always a significant history if you dig deep enough and ask the people

        I’d change Dunedin and Auckland – imagine the screeds of work that could be done explaining, interpreting, presenting that change, why it occurred and what it means.

        But remember I am saying all should change – bits and pieces won’t work, dual names not so keen on. Mt Cook – nah, New Zealand – nah.

        and before you get up on your high hobby horse pete – this is imo, I am not speaking for a group or an ethnicity – this is just what I would do to make this country a better more equal place for everyone especially the indigenous people who didn’t get much input when strangers arrived and began changing names as if the people already here were invisible – they were not invisible – the history and knowledge was here long before the foreign boots began to stomp all over everything tangata whenua cared about.

        • Pete George 6.3.1.1

          If you were serious about “a better more equal place for everyone” I think that considering a mix of original and newer names including some dual names would be appropriate.

          In many cases places and areas of today don’t have original equivalents. And I’d guess that many tangata whenua would be happy for a mix, as many do with their own names.

          • marty mars 6.3.1.1.1

            nice – two sentences, two nasty digs – the factchecker is back!

          • weka 6.3.1.1.2

            “In many cases places and areas of today don’t have original equivalents.”

            Dunedin does though. Ōtepoti is the name for the head of the harbour where boats landed, so that works for Māori and Pākehā historically and is pretty much good for a name change.

            • Te Reo Putake 6.3.1.1.2.1

              Yeah, Pete’s going for a bit of historical revisionism there. Nearly all current kiwi settlements had maori names that were replaced by the British ones we (mostly) use today. That’s one of the ways colonialism works to assimilate conquered territories.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.3.1.1.3

            If you were serious about “a better more equal place for everyone” I think that considering a mix of original and newer names including some dual names would be appropriate.

            Nope. As I point out below, it has always been the first discoverer that named a place. By keeping English names we’re insulting those that came before which is an injustice in both cultures.

            • weka 6.3.1.1.3.1

              That would get a bit tricky when you look at the Māori politics involved, esp in Te Wai Pounamu (not sure if it’s the same up north). There were waves of name changes here pre-colonisation. That’s up to Māori to say, but just pointing out the principle isn’t quite as straight forward.

      • Please note: Pete’s definition of “historical significance” largely centres on “whether Pete thinks it has historical significance.” Hence a tree on a hill is more “significant” than the Earl of Egmont.

        • Pete George 6.3.2.1

          Don’t make claims about what I think, especially in ignorance. You shouldn’t practice what you preach against.

          Have you got anything to contribute to the actual topic that this thread is about?

          • Stephanie Rodgers 6.3.2.1.1

            The point is that *you* contributed nothing, Pete. marty asked a very interesting question about the potential benefits of reverting placenames to their closest “origin”, and you jumped in with “I’m Pete George and I think XYZ is important ergo it should change, but ABC isn’t important so it shouldn’t.”

        • marty mars 6.3.2.2

          yep, you can bet George St will never be changed

          • Pete George 6.3.2.2.1

            Odd comment. It isn’t an attempt at a nasty dig is it? Just seems dumb.

            A fairly safe bet. Same for just about every street in the country. Most have only ever had their current names.

          • phillip ure 6.3.2.2.2

            shame we can’t have te reo versions of our anglo-names..

            ..i’m halfway there..ure being of scottish origin…

            ..and in te reo meaning penis..

            ..(some of course may find that uncannily/eerily-accurate..)

      • Draco T Bastard 6.3.3

        For example I think names like Auckland or Dunedin represent something specifically modern and different to various localities and landmarks within them (like Maungakiekie / One Tree Hill which should at least have a dual name).

        Auckland is a bloody horrible name. Tāmaki Makaurau is much better.

        • And, interestingly enough, already used in legislation – Rodney Hide scuppered a lot of the Labour and Greens filibustering on the Auckland supercity legislation by agreeing to an amendment to rename it the Local Government (Tamaki Makaurau Reorganisation) Amendment Bill. (No macron in the Hansard, unfortunately.)

      • phillip ure 6.3.4

        “.. Maungakiekie / One Tree Hill which should at least have a dual name)..”

        maybe rangitoto should be re/dual-named ‘cone-shaped hill’…?

        ..waiheke should be renamed ”fat-cat-bolthole’..?

        ..maybe takapuna should be dual-named ‘glenfield-by-the-sea’..?

    • Te Reo Putake 6.4

      Marty, glad you mentioned the ‘H’ debate. It amuses me no end that googling ‘wanganui’ returns the result ‘whanganui’. Search Engine 1, Red Necks 0.

      I’m going to be in Whanganui this arvo, as it happens, visiting family and playing footy. Lovely town, particularly now the bad smell has gone. No, not the sewerage works; Michael Laws.

      • b waghorn 6.4.1

        I think when mentioning the former mayor of whanganui there should always be a silent H in Lhaws

    • KJT 6.5

      Have to admit I was surprised at the big H in Whanganui, because Maori in Taranaki, at least when I was at primary school there growing up, do not pronounce Wh like Ngapuhi with almost an F sound, but more like the W in “proper” English.

      A Teacher from up North was corrected by the Kia when she tried to teach us to say Whare in the Ngapuhi dialect.

      Tikipunga kids were always telling me my “Taranaki” pronunciation was wrong.

      • Te Reo Putake 6.5.1

        It’s a fascinating subject for a lover of language, KJT. The argument in Whanganui isn’t so much about the pronunciation, it’s about how it should be written. Mind you, the further up the river you go, the more the ‘f’ sound comes through.

        Part of the problem for pakeha is ignorance; there seems to be an assumption that te reo is pronounced uniformly, when it is just like any other language used across a wide geography. Isolation and custom alter pronunciation, just as they do for spoken English in our various regions.

        edit: a good guide to the H sound here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqKN8uYLENQ

        • marty mars 6.5.1.1

          Good points – down south – Ngāi is Kāi and in the old days was often written as Gāi – if you say the ‘g’ you can hear it sounds like the ‘k’.

    • Aotearoa will come before Australia in the dictionary!
      Tourists will be even more confused!
      We can haz a new flag as well!

      It’s cool to korero, and to remember our heritage (both European and Maori), but there are other pressing issues in NZ, and it might be counterproductive for the Left to focus on this too much.

      • marty mars 6.6.1

        no you just don’t get the point

        inequality is bad in and of itself and the bits that fall out of inequality affect just about all of our society – if inequality was addressed then these ‘other pressing issues’ would be well on the way to being sorted too.

        don’t believe me? pick one

        pollution of the environment – sorted
        gap between rich and poor – sorted
        violence – sorted
        desperation and feelings of hopelessness – sorted

        just a wee taste test for you

    • Draco T Bastard 6.7

      I’ve been in favour of reverting back the proper names for some time now. When the overly privileged white folk complain about it we can always point to the ye olde English tradition of having the discoverer name a place and that the English weren’t first.

    • Clemgeopin 6.8

      Another welcome distraction for Key to go with his flag.

      • marty mars 6.8.1

        rubbish clem you are just calling it from your privilege – if this was implemented, key would be toast and so would his rightwing mates – oh and a few lefties might have to learn how to pronounce some stuff correctly and learn about the country they call home – sure that would prove difficult for fakers but not for the rest.

        • McFlock 6.8.1.1

          you think NZ has changed that much since Brash’s Orewa speech?

          Can’t say I particuarly give a shit either way, but the three track brigade will love it. They might love it so much that they makes dicks of themselves, but on the flipside they might not screw it up.

          I see a lot of positivity here (with the exception of the fuckedchukka, but that’s nothing new). But I have no idea whether it would be a net vote winner or vote loser, and there will be a very vocal opposition.

  7. North 7

    For me Aotearoa (‘Are-Or-Teh-Are-Ror-Are’) is beautiful, spoken and heard.

  8. Draco T Bastard 8

    The future of news?

    With all the cutbacks that the MSM have been making over the years to boost profits it probably is.

  9. Skinny 9

    Listening to media watch on RNZ this morning was quite insightful and disturbing. The downward spiral of independent media worldwide.

    Here in New Zealand things are looking grim with Cameron Slater rumored to be fronting a new start up media outlet, sponsored by a deep pocketed individual. You can count on a Right-wing bias fudging the facts. After the revelations of Slaters involvement in Dirty Politics he should be banned from fronting a mainstream propaganda vehicle. Be interested to know which journalists have been approached, if any? You can count on regular rambler on here Peter George to have submitted his short CV. Hooton would be another media commentator breaking his neck to get involved, perhaps he could strenghten his hand by talking his concuring offsider Mike Williams to do a combo column. Then you have another good fit in Boag & Fran O’Sullivan. How about radio jocks Garner & Smith, and to round it out add Hosking & Henry.

    What would be a fitting name? Perhaps call it what it would be, NZNP Media.

    • Pete George 9.1

      Another false assumption. I wouldn’t consider be involved in a Slater dictated media organisation.

      And I doubt that many mainstream journalists would go near it, even though significant money has been mentioned – “$600,000? That isn’t even 7 figures…WRONG again.”

      I posted on what’s happening on this recently – Freed from what?

      • Skinny 9.1.1

        Showing a moral compass Pete ‘New Years resolutions don’t usually last’ hang in there though.

        ” And I doubt that many mainstream journalists would go near it. ”

        Really they have been working the sham for years, copying and pasting Slater & Edes propaganda, all approved by their rightwing editors and rich lister owners I may add.

        • Pete George 9.1.1.1

          I’ve been posting things like that for a lot longer than this year.

          • phillip ure 9.1.1.1.1

            “..copying and pasting Slater & Edes propaganda..”..?

          • Skinny 9.1.1.1.2

            You mean playing the devils advocate for years.

            • Pete George 9.1.1.1.2.1

              Often, amongst other things. Plus holding to account often.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                You don’t hold the people with the most power and the most money in NZ to account, PG. At best, you only hold to account those in the 2nd and 3rd tiers of the pyramid. And even then, you pick and choose targets which won’t annoy the true power brokers too much.

                • Pete George

                  And how do you know all this? I certainly haven’t revealed much to you.

                  I’m prepared more than most to mix it with anyone. How much holding to account do you do? What you do here doesn’t count, it’s mostly arguing amongst your own and dissing off others based on flawed assumptions.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    PG, I don’t need you tell me ‘what counts’, thanks. As to a matter of substance, I’m happy to withdraw my claim if you can show me any public criticism you’ve made of John Key, Bill English or Gerry Brownlee.

                    Even if it is just on The Standard, which according to you “doesn’t count.”

                    • Pete George

                      So you made a claim based on nothing? There’s many examples.

                      For years I’ve been critical of both Key and English over their unwillingness to consider changes to Super.

                      English over Paid parental Leave a number of times including Pre-Parliament veto of Parental Leave bill?

                      And often critical of John Key on ‘Dirty Politics’, like John Key statement against dirty politics

                      I didn’t say the Standard doesn’t count, but I doubt whether what you do here holds “the true power brokers” to account much (Curran doesn’t fit that description).

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    And how do you know all this?

                    That would be by reading your comments.

                    • Pete George

                      And I very much doubt he reads anywhere near all my comments or posts.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      After reading all of the first set before you were banned we got enough knowledge to know how you operate. You haven’t changed since then. You still defend the government no matter what you just first couch it in terms of attacking the government and then try to twist the conversation around to support it.

                    • Pete George

                      Very funny. I’ve just been accused on Kiwiblog of cosying up to Labour, so I must be getting things about right.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      What makes you think that? Labour are almost as far right as National so it would still be you defending the PTB.

              • so..who..aside from satan..are you in thrall to..?

  10. Clemgeopin 10

    “YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN GOD TO GO TO HEAVEN” : Pope Francis assures atheists.

    In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their
    consciences.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

    • b waghorn 10.1

      There is hope for that chap with the funny dress and cap hopefully he will start recommending contraception to help stop aids and over population.

  11. vto 11

    Do you think all those lovely Parisians who claimed they were Charlie and are beacons of “free expression” would permit those amongst us who like their “free expression” sans clothes would permit their streets to be so “offended”?

    I call it the malleable principle application principle

  12. weka 12

    A somewhat graphic description of the public beheading of a woman in Saudi Arabia this week. Apparently the authorities used the more painful of the two options available to them (no pain killers), and took a few attempts before she was dead. The beheading was preceded by being dragged through the streets.

    Sounds barbaric right? More or less barbaric than putting a man in a small room on his own for a year knowing that at some point he will be killed, and then making him walk down a hall in chains, be strapped to a bed with people watching, and then injected with various drugs until he is dead?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-publicly-beheads-woman-in-holy-mecca-as-blogger-set-to-receive-second-lashing-9982134.html

    • joe90 12.2

      A barbaric nation.

      In 2014, Florida recorded at least 346 deaths inside of their prison system, an all-time high for the state in spite of the fact that its overall prison population has hovered around 100,000 people for the five previous years.

      […]

      After allegedly defecating in his cell, Rainey was handcuffed and locked into a tight shower cell and blasted for nearly two hours with water that was over 180 scolding hot degrees in temperature. Begging for his life, screaming apologies and remorse so loud that other inmates could hear them, the officers kept the water so hot and forceful that the steam began to melt off Darren Rainey’s skin. Video shows Rainey forced into the shower at 7:38 PM and he was pronounced dead at 9:30 PM.

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/14/1357661/-Poisonings-beatings-gassings-Record-346-inmates-die-dozens-of-guards-fired-in-Florida-prisons#

      • Colonial Rawshark 12.2.1

        OMFG that last account is cruelty to an utterly barbaric degree.

        We will be seeing far more of this coming out of the USA, with no consequences for the perps with the badges (fired lol).

        A society where authoritarian psychopaths are given free reign.

        • weka 12.2.1.1

          I couldn’t bring myself to read it.

          The one yesterday about the Florida authorities using mugshots of black men for target practice was likewise almost unbearable to read. What planet are these people on? Are we even part of the same species? That unfortunately is me speaking from my NZ privilege and shelter. But I do think that there are people here amongst us who would be the same given the chance. Their veneer is pretty thin, and getting thinner by the minute as we let NZ become a place of thugs 🙁

        • greywarshark 12.2.1.2

          Going back to the good old days? That’s the sort of thing that happened to mental cases up to the late 20th century. Bedlam in England was said to be the worst example of an institution for mental cases.

          The most infamous asylum was located in London, England—Saint Mary of Bethlehem. This monastery-turned-asylum began admitting the mentally ill in 1547 after Henry VIII ….. San Hipolito was built in Mexico 1566 and claims the title of the first asylum in the Americas. La Maison de Chareton was the first mental facility in France, founded in 1641 in a suburb of Paris.

          When staff did attempt to cure the patients, they followed the practices typical of the time period—purging and bloodletting, the most common. Other treatments included dousing the patient in either hot or ice-cold water to shock their minds back into a normal state.

          The belief that patients needed to choose rationality over insanity led to techniques aiming to intimidate (Butcher 37). Blistering, physical restraints, threats, and straitjackets were employed to achieve this end.

          Powerful drugs were also administered, for example, to a hysterical patient in order to exhaust them (Butcher 37, Alexander 109). Around the mid-1700s, the Dutch Dr. Boerhaave invented the “gyrating chair” that became a popular tool in Europe and the United States. This instrument was intended to shake up the blood and tissues of the body to restore equilibrium, but instead resulted in rendering the patient unconscious without any recorded successes (Alexander 109)….

          (Dorothea Dix 1802-1887 is a name to remember, a woman who lobbied for 40 years on behalf of the mentally ill and who saw better facilities for care built in that time)

          Significant advances in psychological concepts after the mass establishment of asylums did not arise until the development of psychoanalysis by Sigmund Freud in the late 1800s to early 1900s.
          http://www.studentpulse.com/articles/283/2/the-history-of-mental-illness-from-skull-drills-to-happy-pills

  13. Clemgeopin 13

    RIGHT WING REPUBLICAN RICH ROGUES RE-BRANDING THEMSELVES TO GET ELECTED!

    MITT ROMNEY:
    Says he is running for president because of his desire to address poverty and income inequality! “The rich have gotten richer, income inequality has gotten worse and there are more people in poverty than ever before under this president,” he added.

    JEB BUSH :
    Lamented that “while the last eight years have been pretty good ones for top-earners, they’ve been a lost decade for the rest of America.”

    RICK SANTORUM, RAND PAUL, TED CRUZ:
    Emphasized reconnecting with blue collar Americans. They all paid lip service to the matter at the Heritage Foundation policy summit, an annual gathering of conservatives in Washington.

    Romney also said:
    “I’m in this race because I care about Americans. I’m not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there. If it needs repair, I’ll fix it,” he said inelegantly following his victory in the Florida primary. “I’m not concerned about the very rich, they’re doing just fine. I’m concerned about the very heart of the America, the 90 percent, 95 percent of Americans who right now are struggling.”

    [Of course, that is where most of the the vote is!]

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/17/mitt-romney-poverty-2016_n_6492894.html?cps=gravity_2429_4412022838654375576

    • Sacha 13.1

      They learned well from Key’s “underclass” lines at our 2008 election. Crocodile compassion.

      • phillip ure 13.1.1

        i like ‘crocodile-compassion’..

        ..i haven’t heard that before..

        ..labour does a lot of that..

        ..when they talk about the poor/poverty..

        ..’we have words/faux-sympathy for you – and/but little else’..(c.f. labour ’14 election-promises..)

        ..so for the poor..

        ..it’s a case of ‘meet the new boss – same as the old boss’..

        ..who would vote for that..?

    • greywarshark 13.2

      If Warren Buffett can speak up then its ok and a good line even if the words stick in your throat. And the facial muscles need physiotherapy before and after speechifying.

      • Clemgeopin 13.2.1

        My gut instinct is that I trust more Warren Buffet any day as a sincere worthy individual than these right wing dodgy and cunning politicians. Same as I would trust Andrew Little any day over John Key.

  14. Draco T Bastard 14

    Facebook And Monsanto Are Basically Owned By The Same People

    Or should we say corporations… Seven of the top 12 shareholders of Facebook and Monsanto are identical. Even more to the point, three of the top five shareholders are the same.

    So much for competition.

    • Colonial Rawshark 14.1

      And of course, these people do not believe in competition. They believe in monopoly control. With the appearance of competition through different brand names and different logos – all owned by the same small groups of investors or corporations.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1

        IMO, the whole point of the ‘free-market’ was to ensure total accumulation by the few and to be able to hide that ownership behind company brands and other cutouts.

  15. Paul 15

    The problems of inequality.
    A parasitical new generation of super rich in NZ

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/65122190/superrich-kids-how-the-other-half-lives

    • Ad 15.1

      It’s not a bad article for the detail of elite lives and their interests.

      For the lowest of New Zealand, and the highest, democracy doesn’t matter any more because it will never do anything for their lives. I believe the lower turnout over time reflects this.

      New Zealand’s whole Party and electoral processes is increasingly limited in the promises it can make, because wealth structures are so set in place.

      In the elite of that wealth structure, the children of the rich exist in a perpetual state of play.

    • millsy 15.2

      These people go against NZ and what it stands for.

  16. Chooky 16

    Germans dont want American corporations fiddling with their food…25,000 protest in the streets

    ‘We are fed up!’: Thousands march against TTIP & GMOs in Berlin (PHOTOS, VIDEO)

    http://rt.com/news/223723-ttip-gmo-protest-berlin/

    “Speaking at one of the Green Week events, Federal Agriculture Minister Christian Schmidt promised to address the issues raised by the demonstrators, and said that he welcomed the public display of opinion.”

    • joe90 16.1

      We’re fucked.
      /

      The latest edition of the Food Demand Survey (FooDS) is now out.

      […]

      A large majority (82%) support mandatory labels on GMOs, but curiously about the same amount (80%) also support mandatory labels on foods containing DNA.

      http://jaysonlusk.com/blog/2015/1/15/food-demand-survey-foods-january-2015

      • Draco T Bastard 16.1.1

        And I’m sure that 80% won’t want chemicals in their food either not realising that vitamins happen to be chemicals. It’s this type of ignorance that the anti-vaccines and anti-immunization people exploit. They do surveys on which word sounds worse and then tell people that the word is bad without touching upon the underlying science.

        • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.1.1

          Oh fuck off DTB, a holier than thou “we know better” attitude is what has driven lots of people away from the medicalised paradigm of health.

          If you want to be scientific then be scientific and stop applying blanket statements.

          You know as well as I do that vaccines are drugs, and the pros and cons of taking a drug has to be individually assessed for every drug and every variant of that drug, and not just assumed for the entire class of drugs as a whole. There have also been numerous documented instances where vaccines have been ineffective, patients told incorrect information (or information plain witheld from them), or where vaccines have caused severe harm or death so you cannot just arbitrarily dismiss peoples concerns by pretending that you know better.

          I should add that there are some circumstances where I would accept vaccination myself (and have before) so I am not being dogmatic about this.

          • Draco T Bastard 16.1.1.1.1

            Oh fuck off DTB, a holier than thou “we know better” attitude is what has driven lots of people away from the medicalised paradigm of health.

            I don’t do holier than thou, I do don’t be so fucken ignorant. Or, to put it another way, ignorance can be cured.

            You know as well as I do that vaccines are drugs,

            Sometimes but not usually. They’re usually a modified version of the disease which, when a person is exposed to them, causes their immune system to develop the ability to fight that disease and thus making them immune to it. It’s this basic nature that makes the claim that vaccines cause autism complete bollocks.

            There have also been numerous documented instances where vaccines have been ineffective, patients told incorrect information (or information plain witheld from them), or where vaccines have caused severe harm or death so you cannot just arbitrarily dismiss peoples concerns by pretending that you know better.

            Yep. But that’s not really the question. The question is if mankind is better off with them than without them and the answer to that is that we’re far better off with them than without them as the amount of death and harm increases without them.

            I should add that there are some circumstances where I would accept vaccination myself (and have before) so I am not being dogmatic about this.

            It sounds like you’re being ignorant.

            • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Sorry mate, if a drug doesn’t provide them convincing and substantial benefits, my view is that people have solid cause not to take them.

              So what are you going to do then? Make people take the treatment against their will and without their consent? Because you know better than them and you can be the one to cure their ignorance?

              Shit mate, in that case you better get on to the 30% to 40% of DHB doctors who refuse to take the FREE flu jab that their employer offers them (and pushes them to have) every year.

              I’ll let you be the one to educate them, mate.

              • McFlock

                Any doctor who refuses a vaccine on pretty much any of the excuses you have raised should be struck off for gross incompetence.

                • The Murphey

                  Q. What excuses were they pilot McFlock ?

                  • McFlock

                    The obvious one is in the comment above, where cr referred to exclusive self-interest according to current levels in a largely-vaccinated population. I’m surprised you couldn’t read it. You do realise that literacy is a necessary skill for pilots?

                    Boldface is cute, but it’s not like you have made any claims about your flying experience (or, I suspect, lack thereof). You just pretended to know better than everyone else, without a shred of credibility to make that pretence.

                    • The Murphey

                      Q. Why should I need to make claims about my flying experience ?

                      Q. You still don’t comprehend what I wrote yesterday do you ?

                      Q. Why would you play credibility police after your full frontal ?

                      That you came back with the response you did having been so exposed was a good lesson for me in self restraint

                    • McFlock

                      Q: why don’t you explain it in little bitty tiny words that I can understand, then?

                    • The Murphey

                      Good for you admitting to a lack of comprehension

                      It won’t be so difficult next time round

                    • McFlock

                      I strongly suspect there was nothing there for anyone to comprehend.

                      So now I once more invite you to demonstrate that your words are not meaningless, an invitation you have repeatedly declined.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    McFlock didn’t claim to be a pilot. He said he’d directed a plane for some time between takeoff and landing. You inferred that you were a pilot in order to give some gravitas to your comments. It should not be a problem to back that up, Walter.

                  • Chooky

                    @ The Murphey+100 ..lol…I think you have not only shot down an argument but also a load of bullshit….I myself have flown a small plane ( with a pilot beside me) ie held the controls and listened in the earphones to the airport controller…that does not make me an expert or a pilot…ha ha..far from it!…..seems that those who pretend otherwise is symptomatic of a lot of other pseudo expert dogmatic authoritarian bullshit flying around here

                    • The Murphey

                      Some of the points of view made around the flying of aircraft and skills required (or not) to pilot a commercial aircraft were odd to say the least

                    • McFlock

                      Some of the points of view made around the flying of aircraft and skills required (or not) to pilot a commercial aircraft were odd to say the least

                      What experience do you have to suggest they are incorrect?

              • Draco T Bastard

                Sorry mate, if a drug doesn’t provide them convincing and substantial benefits, my view is that people have solid cause not to take them.

                Vaccinations work because everyone takes them. If not everyone takes then the they’re far less effective. If no-one took them then we’d be rapidly back to 19th century levels of child mortality and very short lives.

                As for the doctors not taking them – that’s them being really bloody stupid especially in a hospital. They should know better.

                • The Murphey

                  Q. Do you QA what you write before you submit ?

                  “If not everyone takes then the they’re far less effective”

                  Q. Can you spot the problem with your comment ?

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  If no-one took them then we’d be rapidly back to 19th century levels of child mortality and very short lives.

                  That’s a rubbish and unscientific claim. How do you, who prides yourself on being uber scientific and rational, even stand to do that?

                  You can only believe that your statement is true if you discount the poor living conditions, low income, insufficient calories, lack of antibiotics and unsatisfactory sanitation in NZ in the 1800’s as compared to now.

                  Further your hypothetical is junk to begin with because no one has suggested that absolutely no one uses vaccinations. As I said earlier, in some circumstances, I would use vaccinations myself.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    That’s a rubbish and unscientific claim. How do you, who prides yourself on being uber scientific and rational, even stand to do that?

                    What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?

                    Your ignorance is showing again.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      No one, least of all me, is asserting that we should stop all vaccinations to all people.

                      Further, vaccinations against specific major diseases can claim credit for probably 5% to 10% of life expectancy/quality of life improvement since the 1800s. AT BEST.

                      While the newest vaccinations can claim fuck all credit.

                      Don’t oversell their impact.

                    • McFlock

                      Do you mean 5 or 10% of the increase in average life expectancy in that time?

                      And do you have any supporting data for your claim, seeing as dtb was good enough to link to the CDC?

            • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.1.1.1.2

              It’s this basic nature that makes the claim that vaccines cause autism complete bollocks.

              I didn’t make any comment on “autism.”

              But artificially modifying your immune system in ways which are not fully understood or even measurable – it is arguably the most complex system in the body with many far reaching interconnections with the brain and nervous system – is not something that anyone should do lightly.

              • northshoredoc

                🙄

                • The Murphey

                  Q. What are you a doctor of ?

                  Q. Do you offer your patients that level of derision ?

                  • Chooky

                    The Murphey +100 good questions

                    • McFlock

                      and yet if s/he actually paid attention to what anybody else wrote, muphry would know the answer to the first q, and probably the second.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    It’s the same look that the Cardinals would give the unwashed heathen

                    • Chooky

                      CR +100 …and the heathen should give the middle finger salute and get out the door fast…better still leave a doggie do parting card on the door mat

              • Draco T Bastard

                It’s not “modifying your immune system” but utilising it’s basic capability to defend you from diseases. Essentially, it’s teaching the immune system about diseases so that it knows how to defend you against them.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  You’re working with an incredibly simplified mental model of how vaccinations work which is rubbish.

                  BTW applying lessons to an intelligent learning system in order to force it to behave differently *is* modifying the system; exactly the same with the nervous system.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    You’re working with an incredibly simplified mental model of how vaccinations work which is rubbish.

                    It’s the one I was taught as a child, in high school and can be found on reputable health sites. They all say pretty much the same thing which indicates that the mental model I use is as accurate as is needed.

                    BTW applying lessons to an intelligent learning system to force it to behave differently *is* modifying it, exactly the same with the nervous system.

                    We’re not forcing it to behave differently. If you actually picked up the disease it would work exactly the same way but would have less chance of providing the necessary defenses in time and thus putting you at a higher risk of death.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Hey mate, you’re all satisfied with what you know and I am glad for you.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It’s the top rated science. You, on the other hand, seem to be heading into the anti-science realm of delusion.

                    • Chooky

                      @DTB…re your reply to CR…..”It’s the top rated science. You, on the other hand, seem to be heading into the anti-science realm of delusion.”

                      Science is about keeping an open mind…one size does not fit all…one immunization does not fit all….in science one truth , one law is not immutable or unquestionable ( Popper’s theory of falsifiability)

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper

                      sorry DTB …what you were taught in high school is outmoded and will be outmoded…it isnt “top rated science”…on the basis of CR ‘s arguments I would rate him a far, far better scientist than you …and certainly NOT “into the anti-science realm of delusion”

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Science is about keeping an open mind…

                      Of course it is but I’m not the one with a closed mind. The ones saying that the science is wrong are.

                      one size does not fit all…one immunization does not fit all….in science one truth , one law is not immutable or unquestionable ( Popper’s theory of falsifiability)

                      I didn’t say it was. Our scientists have learned more about it and different methods for achieving the same result but the basics of immunization haven’t changed for well over a century. It’s still about getting the immune system to recognise diseases so that it can react better to them. And that’s all it does.

                      hat you were taught in high school is outmoded and will be outmoded…it isnt “top rated science”…on the basis of CR ‘s arguments I would rate him a far, far better scientist than you …and certainly NOT “into the anti-science realm of delusion”

                      You didn’t read the links that I provided that explained it in the same manner that I did did you?

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      It’s still about getting the immune system to recognise diseases so that it can react better to them. And that’s all it does.

                      😯

                      you know of a medical trial design which is able to pick up on ALL the physiological and biochemical changes caused by a vaccination?

                      Really? Where?

                      Because to make such a sweeping statement of certainty you must have some really powerful and extensive studies on hand.

          • Chooky 16.1.1.1.2

            +100 CR…

      • Incognito 16.1.2

        Do these people not realise that all foods contain DNA!? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome#Genome_size

      • The Murphey 16.1.3

        Q. Why would anyone support labeling over an outright ban on GMO ?

        Q. Cross contamination would make it inevitable that all food stuff claiming via labels to be ‘non GMO’ would surely become contaminated given enough time ?

        The debate needs to be ban GMO not cede food security to the companies who own the patents and control the ‘non GMO’ companies

        • greywarshark 16.1.3.1

          The Murphey
          Hear hear. GMo must be rigidly controlled by government. Probably all should be banned. (But is there some thought about breeding out some attack fungi on potatoes or kumaras and pnines?)

  17. Colonial Rawshark 17

    Let’s get John Key to put the referendum for renaming the North Island and the South Island together with his very timely NZ flag referendum.

    They all go together, if you think about it.

    Labour could co-sponsor the initiative. This would also satisfy those who think that the NZ left are just a bunch of downers who keep talking about un-sexy and media irrelevant topics like poverty and unemployment.

    • weka 17.1

      They don’t go together.

      I appreciate the point, but I think this is a case of sarcasm being the lesser form of wit.

    • marty mars 17.2

      yep cv you just keep on focusing on issues global in scale and reach – they provide good cover for doing nothing about anything.

    • Colonial Rawshark 17.3

      You guys don’t seriously think that you will be able to undemocratically push through a name change of both the North Island and the South Island without the mandate of a public referendum?

      • Clemgeopin 17.3.1

        May be to confuse everybody, increase discussion, debate and to feel quite smug, just name the South island as the North Island and the North Island as the East Last Island.

        And a referendum on that: Anything to distract from the real urgent issues!

        But then, may be not!

        • marty mars 17.3.1.1

          yeah I’m sure you’d rather talk about nice big wayoverthere real urgent issues – go for it no one is stopping you, wank away…

  18. As a blogger I am greatly concerned about the safety of another blogger who is currently in jail in Saudi Arabia for being critical of the Saudi government. Hi name is Raif Badani. His sentence included 1000 lashes.

    He received the first 50 last week and until now is medically unfit to receive the second installment. I put it to you that nobody should receive lashes, let alone for speaking out. I am a blogger. I am Raif Badani and I want the flogging to stop. Please sign the Petition and let’s make this global!

    • Clemgeopin 18.1

      Thanks. I have just signed and sent the link to six of my friends.

      ————

      ‘Raif told me he is in a lot of pain. He said that when he was being flogged he took the pain silently and rose above it, so that history will know that he did not react to their punishment. His health is poor and he cannot take another round of lashes’
      Ensaf Haidar, Raif Badawi’s wife

      Just after Friday prayers on 9 January, Raif Badawi was led by Saudi officials out of a bus and into the middle of the square in front of al-Jafali mosque in Jeddah. A large crowd had gathered to see the flogging.

      Raif stood in the middle of the crowd, handcuffed and shackled by his ankles, his face uncovered. A security officer approached Raif and began caning him across the back and legs, until he had been beaten 50 times. A witness told us it took just five minutes to cane Raif 50 times; the lashes were constant and quick.

      ‘Raif raised his head towards the sky, closing his eyes and arching his back. He was silent, but you could tell from his face and his body that he was in real pain.’
      Eyewitness

      More info here:

      https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/saudi-arabia-free-raif-badawi-flogged-blogger?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=20150116111200&utm_campaign=Freedom_of_expression&thankyou=1

      • Ad 18.1.1

        Would have been a lot more rational if the US and the Coalition forces had invaded Saudi Arabia after the 9/11 attacks. The school indoctrination, the networks, the private military funding.

        That would have been inviting war with most hard line Islamic states due to its shrines. Might have been able to control most of OPEC’s oil. Would probably have had a worse EU-NATO Pact terrorist threat than now.

        But IMHO Saudi Arabia is the funding source and ideological source of most of the evil in the world right now.

    • marty mars 18.2

      I’ve signed and I hope they let him go. Kia kaha Raif.

  19. (greece is getting interesting…)

    “..Greek elections: Syriza’s young radicals plot a political earthquake for Europe..

    ..Inside its smoke-filled HQ – the far-left party is making plans to defy the EU over Greece’s debt –

    – and abolish draconian austerity measures imposed to shore up the euro.

    But first it must win next Sunday’s general election..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/17/greek-elections-syriza-europe-eurozone-alexis-tsipras

  20. and a poll in britain has ukip just 8 points behind the tories…

  21. joe90 21

    This is going to be interesting.

    Prosecutors at the International Criminal Court opened a preliminary examination Friday of possible war crimes committed in the Palestinian territories, the first formal step that could lead to charges against Israelis.

    […]

    Israel’s foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, said he would recommend his government not cooperate with the inquiry. He also said Israel would seek to disband the court, which he described as an anti-Israel institution that “embodies hypocrisy and grants a tailwind to terrorism.”

    http://www.telegram.com/article/20150117/NEWS/150119943/1052/news01

  22. Penny Bright 22

    FYI – working to STOP the proposed Wellington ‘Supercity’, by shining the public spotlight on the Auckland ‘Supercity for the 1%’ – DISASTER for the rest of us!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wairarapa-times-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503414&objectid=11387595

    Supercity scheme ‘flawed’ – Bright

    By don.farmer@age.co.nz

    6:00 AM Saturday Jan 17, 2015

    It hasn’t worked in Auckland and it won’t here, says activist

    A former Carterton woman and self-proclaimed activist, Penny Bright, who has been at the forefront of many battles, especially in Auckland, is campaigning to have the Wellington supercity proposal, which includes Wairarapa, thrown out.

    Ms Bright has written to all mayors and councillors in the greater Wellington region saying the Draft Reorganisation Proposal should be dropped forthwith.

    She regards Auckland’s supercity as a failure that has not achieved any savings for ratepayers, and claims there is no evidence to show the Wellington concept would either.

    In an open letter to all the elected representatives in the Wellington region, Ms Bright, a former pupil of Kuranui College who has lived in Auckland for years, said during the Christmas break she had studied many documents pertaining to council reorganisations, particularly the Wellington supercity idea.

    She believes there should be no further amalgamations of councils “anywhere in New Zealand”, until a full, thorough and independent audit of the Auckland supercity is done based on “facts and evidence to confirm how cost-effective it has really been for the majority of Auckland Council citizens and ratepayers”.

    She said the draft Wellington proposal was fundamentally flawed. “The people are not being given detailed facts and information showing exactly where councils in the Greater Wellington region are spending citizens’ and ratepayers’ money on council services and regulatory functions. That information is needed in order to establish a factual datum, upon which to measure existing or future cost-effectiveness in the provision of council services and regulatory functions.

    “There is no information of this type in the Draft Wellington Reorganisation Proposal, so people simply cannot make an informed submission,” she said.

    Ms Bright, whose activism began in the days of anti-apartheid campaigning, has twice stood for the Auckland mayoralty – in 2010 and 2013 when she secured 12,000 votes, or four per cent of votes cast.

    She also contested two parliamentary seats, Epsom in 2011 challenging MP John Banks and Helensville last year, the seat held by Prime Minister John Key. She will be visiting Wairarapa next week and will speak at a public meeting at the Carterton Memorial Club on January 23, on “Why Auckland supercity is a super mess”.

    She told the Times-Age she would be speaking against the proposed Wellington supercity “based on facts, evidence and my personal experiences of Auckland supercity”.

    Ms Bright calls herself an “investigative activist” who uses the electoral process as an effective way to campaign for open, transparent and democratically accountable local and central government.

    She has refused to pay rates since 2008 because, she said, Auckland City and now the Auckland supercity could not tell her how her rates were being spent ” which is a legal requirement under the Local Government Rating Act”.

    “Auckland rates and debt have skyrocketed, while services, transparency, accountability and democracy have plummeted,” she said.

    – Wairarapa Times-Age
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    I do hope those supporting the proposed Wellington ‘Supercity’ attend this upcoming Public Meeting, so we can have some vigorous debate and discussion, based upon the FACTS.

    Friday 23 January 2015, 7.30pm – 9pm at the Carterton RSA Memorial Club on “Why Auckland supercity is a super mess”.

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

    A copy of the above-mentioned letter that I sent to all Mayors and Councillors in the Greater Wellington region, is available here: http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

  23. any rightwing-catholics out there..?

    ..yr pope/spiritual-master wants a word with you..

    ..esp. you..bill english..

    “..Pope’s emotional appeal for world’s suffering children..”

    (..one for bill english..a practising catholic..

    ..and in a position of power/to end child-poverty..

    ..to listen to/act on..eh..?..)

    (cont..)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/65167644/popes-emotional-appeal-for-worlds-suffering-children

  24. Clemgeopin 24

    ‘Children can be seen living on the streets of the Philippine capital, like in many poor countries in Asia, surviving by begging and picking through garbage in vast dumps.

    The United Nations says 1.2 million children live on the streets in the Philippines. According to the Child Protection Network Foundation, 35.1 percent of children were living in poverty in 2009, the last year such data was available. Nearly 33 percent of Filipinos live in slums.

    MEN “TOO MACHISTA” Francis noted there were more men than women in the crowd and that it was a little girl who was able to move everyone.

    Women have much to tell us in today’s society. At times we are too ‘machista’ and don’t allow room for women,’ he said, using the Spanish term for male chauvinist. The crowd laughed. ‘But women are capable of seeing things with a different angle from us, with a different eye, and pose questions that we men are not able to understand … so when the next pope comes to Manila, let’s please have more women among you,’ he said’

    • greywarshark 24.1

      I heard on radionz that Pope Francis spoke out against contraception. Same old, same old. Breeding vessels so sensitive, nurturing and obedient, the women are used rather than respected and yet still form the strength of the chuch. He wants more women in the crowd. Perhaps he can then bring himself to dispense contraceptives which would be like manna from heaven.

      Trouble is many religions are built on the idea of uncontrolled population, luckily many parents will not accept that. But the few with large families can exponentially fill a valley with their own progeny in a few generations. With better medical conditions there is no natural contraceptive. I think that Osama bin Laden was one of 52 children from his father’s loins.

  25. greywarshark 25

    I’m amused looking at the ‘nice’ manners of DF on Kiwiblog in this comment from 2010.
    After the goings -on before the election where there were no niceties, it’s funny to compare him then with his 2010 ‘holding his little pinky out and sipping his tea’ severity about correct title usage. There’s always some negative way the NACTs can chip away at people who aren’t one of them.

    A reader brings to my attention the website of Faimeh Burke, who is standing for Christchurch City Council. Her website is – http://www.ladyfaimehburke.org.
    Rather gauche to use the title for political campaigning, when it is through marriage – and even worse to use it incorrectly. As she is not the daughter of nobility, but the wife of Sir Kerry Burke, the correct usage is simply Lady Burke.

    Her husband Sir Kerry Burke was forced out of his five-year term as Environment Canterbury Chairman on 25 September 2009.
    These councillors put up a no confidence vote against him.
    The councillors who voted in favour of the motion were: Mr Oldfield, Ross Little, Angus McKay, Mr Neill, Bronwen Murray, Carole Evans, Pat Harrow and Ms Kane.

    • Murray Rawshark 25.1

      Farrar shows just what a forelock tugger he is. Or just a tugger. Any little thing to divert while democracy was under attack by his sponsors.

  26. greywarshark 26

    Here is a link setting out the backdrop to the coup by Sir Kerry. Dirty Politics not washed clean by irrigation rather the other way round.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/perspective/8205626/How-ECan-fell-to-the-irrigators
    Despite splendid co-operation producing outstanding regional successes such as the Greater Christchurch Urban Development Strategy (UDS) and the Canterbury Water Management Strategy (CWMS), the mayors, led by Christchurch’s Bob Parker and Timaru’s Janie Annear, joined in the attack on the elected ECan.

  27. Murray Rawshark 27

    TS is becoming a great asset to the right. Any undecided voter will look here and see 9/11 truthers, drugged idiots, anti-vaxers,……They could easily get the impression that the left are a pack of fuckwit losers. The same topics come up again and again and absolutely no progress gets made.

    It is very depressing to see this happen after all the work that his gone into providing this platform. Very, and I can’t see it changing. There are people who post here who have quite a bit of expertise in their areas, but few are interested. Overall, we come across as anti-intellectual and anti-science as the bloody teabaggers. 🙁

    • Te Reo Putake 27.1

      Well, the holidays are almost over. Maybe with the end of silly season things will improve?

    • Clemgeopin 27.2

      Fair point. I think It is not so much about the topics themselves that are being discussed, it is the language, rudeness, swearwords, abuse and nastiness often shown by the same few against each other during the discussions that probably will put off potential participants and may bring the board into disrepute. Just my opinion anyway.

      I may be guilty of it myself as for example when I have referred to the rude right wing rich buggers and greedy corporates as dodgy uncaring selfish bastards.

    • weka 27.3

      I agree Murray, but I think the anti-truthers and the anti-anti vaxxers are just as much of a problem. Both because the engagement ties up threads, and because it never changes so it just reinforces that we feel entitled to our opinions and to not change.

      I’ve been out since 4pm and came back and looked at the CC thread and see that people still aren’t that interested in discussing what we can do. I think there is still value in the let’s have an argument and influence those who are reading, but I also think that history will look on us unkindly. And rightly so.

      • Murray Rawshark 27.3.1

        I read that CC thread but there’s not much I can change in my life at the moment, so I didn’t comment. Once I can, I’ll be trying to live self sufficiently as much as possible, and no doubt I’ll make heaps of mistakes. I can foresee problems in wanting to use as little energy as possible and still wanting to participate as a semi-active lefty.

    • greywarshark 27.4

      @ Murray Rawshark
      Singing no nay never, no never no more, I’ll be a wild rover, no never no more.
      I in general like to come to TS and don’t want to rove much but what you say is on the nail. TS could be be compromised as a reliable place for vital, reasoned discussion. There has been much useful thought-food here and useful factual information, and analysis and incisive links to help keep up.

      Can that be consistent or is it inevitable that it will often be swept by a blanket of contradictory discussion of theories on some unique and recurring topic of controversy that fascinates many? A denial of service to the points of the day, so to speak.

      It would be expected that we are emotively involved with the major concerns of our time and the decline in everything. But it doesn’t happen to excite us highly.. Add sex, scandal, outrage at something here and now, and that takes the forefront and the bulk of the discussion, and background reasons and attempt at understanding vital issues fade.

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