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Open mike 18/12/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:22 am, December 18th, 2014 - 247 comments
Categories: open mike, uncategorized - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

247 comments on “Open mike 18/12/2014 ”

  1. Clean_power 1

    Will the Nats adopt the recommendations of the Alcohol Commission? Anything and everything is possible in the social engineering of Aotearoa.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.1

      Free access to alcohol is as much social engineering as restricting it is. One doesn’t have as much profit attached to it. Ask your Tory mates.

  2. Pete George 2

    Either Phil Goff fibbed to Radio New Zealand about not lying or he has put his leader Andrew Little in an embarrassing position – actually this is awkward for Little regardless.

    “I didn’t lie about it, but I didn’t pretend that I didn’t make the comments and I apologised for being in breach of her embargo. I should have honoured it to the letter.”

    Goff off the hook over leak

    And this is what Andrew Little was reported as saying in defence of Goff last month:

    “He’s given me those assurances, I’m satisfied with that,” he said on Firstline this morning.

    “He hasn’t given the report to anybody, he declined media interviews until the report was released at 10am yesterday, so I don’t know where they came from and I’m satisfied they didn’t come from Phil Goff.”

    Goff: SIS report leak ‘perfectly appropriate’

    Someone has not been truthful.

    Goff has put Andrew Little in a very awkward position here. The time of year might reduce the spotlight but it’s not a good look for a new era for Labour’s caucus under Little’s leadership.

    • Rodel 2.1

      Andrew Little must be cringing in fear at this savage attack by Pete George(sarc).
      What petty nonsense.

    • Clean_power 2.2

      I would not hesitate giving Mr Little the benefit of the doubt, something that cannot be granted to Mr Goff, a serial liar and proud leader of the ABC faction.

      • Pete George 2.2.1

        I don’t think Goff is deliberately undermining Little but he isn’t doing him any favours.

        Goff also has a record as a serial leaker. He might escape serious scrutiny on this if the press gallery are already in holiday mode but if he continues with old habits like this he is a major liability for Little.

        • miravox 2.2.1.1

          No one cares Pete.

          Key discussed the report with that verified journalist, Slater, before the report was off embargo. Moral high ground=gone.

          • Tracey 2.2.1.1.1

            I care.

            Unless Little intends carrying on the awful tradition of planned leaking that some of our pollies indulge in, this was a chance to put his foot down.

            It is unfathomable that Goff didnt know exactly what the media would do, sack him, show you have a genuine standard.

            • miravox 2.2.1.1.1.1

              I appreciate where you’re coming from Tracey. I think Goff was an idiot to jump the gun on this, but I also feel it’s not the problem that Pete is making it out to be in terms of Little’s integrity. It’s not likely it would have been on Little’s radar in his nascent leadership. I trust Goff or any other member of ABC (need a new acronym), won’t be doing anything like that again.

              • Tracey

                Thanks miravox

                If Little received assurances from Goff, in light of the embargo and the confidentiality, then Goff either lied to Little or he admitted breaching the embargo and confidentiality.

                Do you think TS commenters would have ignored this if it happened to Key.

                I have no respect for PG but on this I agree with him.

                Any squeak by labour about leaks or integrity will be met by howls of “ask phil goff”

                • miravox

                  I think Pete is trying to undermine Little’s integrity, and I’m not going there. He could mention Key’s integrity, but won’t. So I don’t agree on Pete’s take on this.

                  I do believe Goff was foolish to do what many MPs seem to have done before, i.e. giving a ‘heads up’ to journalists, but without the spotlight of dirty politics. I would think tipping off the press can be dubious, but not always. The timing means Goff got it wrong. However, I’m not having Pete George’s measly disingenuousness frame this for me.

          • alwyn 2.2.1.1.2

            There is of course a rather significant difference between the two cases.
            Both Key and Slater had officially received copies of the report, just as Goff had, before the report was released to the Press. They were not breaching any embargo by discussing the report with someone who was not yet entitled to see it.

        • Skinny 2.2.1.2

          Oh cut it out Pete most people know which political leader rounded the year out being shown as full of crap. Let me guess you have been tossing and turning checking your alarm clock at night so you could post such dribble this morning. My advice take a summer break as it’s obvious Andrew Little’s sterling preformance as the new Labour leader is getting to you.

          • Manuka AOR 2.2.1.2.1

            “Andrew Little’s sterling preformance as the new Labour leader is getting to you.”

            😀 The AL effect – a glorious thing 😀

    • karol 2.3

      Goff didn’t leak the report in advance; he didn’t give any media interviews on the report in advance; he made some comments to some journos that he probably saw as being off the record – not an actual interview. So a little bit of wriggle room there, and not in contradiction of what Little said.

      On the embargo Goff said;

      I should have honoured it to the letter.”

      • Pete George 2.3.1

        “he didn’t give any media interviews on the report in advance; he made some comments to some journos that he probably saw as being off the record ”

        Apart from the contradiction that’s nonsense. Goff has been around long enough to know how the media works and how to work the media. He got the media coverage he wanted – he said “What I did was perfectly appropriate”, admits:

        And I guess my enthusiasm led me to make some more comment than I should have.

        I gave information that was not going to damage anybody.

        http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/goff-apologises-for-sis-report-leak-2014121710

        It is damaging to Little and to Labour’s recovery.

        • Tracey 2.3.1.1

          It may seem like semantics to you Pete but an embargo and leak are not the same thing. Why you didnt just use the correct words is not puzzling to many who read you regularly but by doing so you distracted from your point,

          That Goff deliberately breached the embargo, and that is not behaviour we should accept

          • Pete George 2.3.1.1.1

            He breached a confidentiality order.

            Cheryl Gwyn:

            “All witnesses, including Mr Goff, were subject to a confidentiality order of the inspector-general,” IGIS said in a statement.

            “The order was made to ensure fairness and the integrity of the inquiry. The disclosure of the report by Mr Goff was in breach of the order.”

            That’s far more serious than breaching an embargo, it’s illegal.

            • Tracey 2.3.1.1.1.1

              Have you laid a complaint with the police?

              Why did you leave that bit out of your first post?

              I have addressed what I think the consequences should be.

      • batweka 2.3.2

        Exactly. And this was made apparent at the time by Goff fronting up then about what he had done.

        See, this is why I think Pete George fits so well with Slater and co. I doubt that George has direct contact with the Dirty Politics crew but he so wants to and instead does their dirty work for them gratis. And all in the guise of moderate, reasonable muddle NZ. This isn’t just Pete being a trole, it’s him deliberately misrepresenting the facts as a way of smearing the left and in this case, Little and Labour specifically. I know most people think him annoying but harmless, but he gets very good google rankings for his blog and MSM journos use him as a reference. Expect this to get worse.

        edited to tone down the evil hyperbole.

        • Pete George 2.3.2.1

          “This isn’t just Pete being a trole, it’s him deliberately misrepresenting the facts”

          You’re the one misrepresenting or denying the facts and playing dirty politics. You’ve made no attempt disprove the facts I’ve posted, just resorted to petty attack. Expect this to get worse.

          • miravox 2.3.2.1.1

            🙄

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3.2.1.2

            🙄

          • tc 2.3.2.1.3

            Proving his point Petey, thanks for the confirmation.

            DP tactic of calling what you’ve posted ‘facts’ that must be addressed thus the slight of hand commences.

          • batweka 2.3.2.1.4

            You haven’t posted any facts for me to disprove (still not getting what a fact is or how to check it?). Karol addressed why your original comment was ridiculous. And it is, it’s just a nonsense with assertions masquerading as god knows what.

            So, here you are troling ts from early morning. Going to keep this up all day? I have no doubt that you will use the ensuing shambles as ‘proof’ of something about ts and the left, but really all that is happening is that too many people are taking your comment at face value instead of putting it in the context of what you really are, a DP peddler.

          • Skinny 2.3.2.1.5

            The only thing ‘getting worst’ Pete are your comments. For goodness sakes man pull your self together. Goff is yesterday’s man and is heading out Labour’s door. Little will bat your concerns away with ease, if Goff got a little ahead of himself it’s hardly Andrew’s fault.

          • phillip ure 2.3.2.1.6

            pg..

            “..just resorted to petty attack. Expect this to get worse..”

            i’ll kick it off..

            ..i often view pg are being permanently linked to that odious-entity called dunne..

            ..he is like a growth coming out of dunnes’ neck..

            ..a growth that talks…

            • Tracey 2.3.2.1.6.1

              Thank god one of them talks cos Dunne seems to have had his tongue sewn to the roof of his mouth since the election.

              • he’s inarticulate in gratitude..

                ..at the greens..for again(!) splitting the vote..

                ..and gifting him his seat..

                ..he is just struggling to find the right words to thank them…

                • Tracey

                  Phil, do you grow your own Dak ordo you get it from someone else (genuine question, not a trap)

                  • and you trained as a lawyer..eh..?

                    ..un-be-lievable..!

                    • Tracey

                      If cops wanted to raid you they would have done it by now.

                      Do you know what it costs by the ounce?

                    • as these are ‘genuine questions’..as you claim

                      ..can i ask why exactly you are asking them..?

                      ..what exactly is yr ‘point’..?

                      ..if you have one..?

                    • Tracey

                      Yes because it is 25 years since I last “knew” the cost of an ounce or a joint to a user.

                      I know someone who has stopped smoking for eight weeks because of random testing introduced at work, he was a daily user. It is too sensitive a topic right now to ask him my question. He is quite heavily in debt and I was wondering how much this unexpected halt may save him.

                    • The Al1en

                      Tinnies are still $20 but the amount and quality all depend on which gang is ripping you off the most.

                      Ounces would be the way to go for best price, though whether you’d actually get an ounce depends on the above, and of course it’s not like you can take it back under the consumer’s rights legislation.

                      Home grown would be the best option, though growing ounces worth increases the risk of not getting away with personal allowance as a defence, and definitely don’t store with or near little plastic sealer bags or rolls of tin foil as that’s going to bite your bum.

                    • The Al1en

                      “I know someone who has stopped smoking for eight weeks because of random testing introduced at work, he was a daily user.”
                      “I was wondering how much this unexpected halt may save him.”

                      Somewhere between heaps and a shit load.

                      What he doesn’t want to do is find a source for synthetic cannabis to beat work testing. Not only is the quality of the product and safety compromised since the ban, but it’s more expensive than weed.

                    • your mind is kind of like a free-form proton..eh..?

                      ..just buzzing away in there…

                      ..randomly bouncing off the inside of yr skull..

                    • felix

                      It varies seasonally, regionally and proximally, but if he was buying regularly he probably had pretty good sources and shouldn’t have been paying much more than $250 per oz.

                      (most of the time)

                    • Realblue

                      Good ounce $500. Average $300-400, so I’ve heard. It actually responds to market forces so I’ve heard. Less supply higher price, so I’ve heard. I’m sure it varies by region. Or so I’ve heard.

                    • Tracey

                      Thanks Realblue

                    • felix

                      lol sounds like someone needs to get out of the city now and then…

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3.2.2

          Indeed. Bland, grey industrial waste stretching as far as the eye can see. I’ll take the fire and brimstone thanks.

          • phillip ure 2.3.2.2.1

            @ oan..

            “..Bland, grey industrial waste stretching as far as the eye can see..”

            ..a cruel but accurate description – of the mind of p.g…

        • tc 2.3.2.3

          MSM using Petey is an immediate credibility fail and shows how owned they are.

          But then a fact light spin zone is where they exist so why not use PG tips.

          • batweka 2.3.2.3.1

            Totally agree with the second sentence, very lolz.

            I’ll have to keep an eye out for which journos use him as a reference.

      • Tracey 2.3.3

        I think he knew what would happen if he said anything to a single journalist. He is not some wide eyed youngster. He is a player of the kind of politics that many here deplore in others. I wish him gone

    • Tracey 2.4

      When it was confirmed yesterday by goffs apology, i rolled my eyes. Just as I did when I saw he has a SST column. Little needs to do a Key and get Goff to state NOW that he is NOT standing at the next election.

      IMO, Little saying nothing yesterday, to my knowledge, leaves open the strong suggestion that Little knew about the leak and it was part of a strategy.

      So, PG, I deplore dishonesty in our leaders, and every elected MP imo is supposed to be a leader. It undermines our democracy and the trust people have in our systems.

      If I were Little I would have announced yesterday that Mr Goff is gone.

      • Ad 2.4.1

        His mayoral candidacy awaits.
        Pretty good poll for Goff in NZHerald yesterday.

        • Tracey 2.4.1.1

          Yeah as soon as I saw his “advertorial” in the SST i knew he was touting for Mayor.

          Even more reason to resign. He has a job, if he has lost interest he needs to resign, or as I mentioned get sacked by Little for breaching expected standards. I cant see who loses from that

          • RedLogix 2.4.1.1.1

            Strident Tracey or Petty Pete? 🙄

            • Tracey 2.4.1.1.1.1

              Whatever Red. If you believe this story starring key and one of his Mps would have been ignored here or dismissed as petty then can i suggest you pop through a few searches.

              • RedLogix

                I’m happy to stand on my record here of not indulging in petty attacks on any person in public life.

                Politicians are approached by the media ALL the time in the day or so prior to an embargo being lifted. This is a normal part of the news cycle. Everyone had a copy of the damn thing already.

                Normal press embargoes have no legal standing whatsoever, they are just gentleman’s agreements that are generally observed for practical reasons. Whether there are some extra legal conditions around this particular report from the IG, and exactly when the question of ‘confidentiality’ was in force or not – remains very unclear.

                Even the IG herself said: and she would be taking steps to ensure there was greater clarity around release protocols and legal obligations for future reports. But no helpful details.

                Given that Goff was in fact the injured party here I actually don’t see anything much wrong with him having the first right of response to the media. Reframing this to make him the bad guy is petty and perverse.

                • Tracey

                  So the legal concept of confidentiality is of no real import?

                  I think you will find the “no one broke a law so the behaviour is fine” defence has as many detractors as defenders. Collins, for example, broke no laws.

                  I just dont believe that an MP of Goffs experience didnt know the intent of the embargo and the confidentiality clause.

                  I dont believe he thought anything he said to reporters would not get published.

                  And finally, John Key was right, the person who released the information early was Phil Goff.

                  Analysing Goff’s actions, and impact, is valid and rational.

                  Key and Slaters actions have been disseminated, assessing Goffs behaviour and standards does not detractfrom the former.

                  • RedLogix

                    the person who released the information early was Phil Goff.

                    umm … no. The report had already been released for about a week. There was nothing confidential about it at the time Goff was being phoned up for comments the day before. Everyone knew what was in it.

                    This whole thing seems to revolve around the fairly technical point as to whether there was some residual ‘confidentiality agreement’ still in place up to the time of the embargo – for this particular report from the IG.

                    While no-one has actually come out and said this, I’m happy to accept that it seems to have been the case. But in the wider scheme of things – given that Goff has put his hand up and apologised promptly – there really isn’t much more worth saying.

                    • Tracey

                      Um, promptly???

                      His opportunity to admit to it came within 24 hours of is actions. He chose not to take the oportunity until a few weeks later

                    • RedLogix

                      Yes and I recall what happened last time a Labour politician made an unprompted apology for something.

                      Or maybe this time Goff thought it wiser to keep his mouth shut until after his wee chat with the IG and not pre-empt what she was going to say this time.

      • Mainlander 2.4.2

        Exactly Tracey, Goff is a toxic ball and chain to Labour and he can take Robertson with him, Little must have eyes in the back of his head to try and keep tabs on those 2 backstabbing traitors, and while im in purge mode throw in Ardern as well

        • Tracey 2.4.2.1

          Goff has very publicly made John Key right.

          1. Goff was the source of the early media reports and
          2. Labour does it too

    • McFlock 2.5

      wow. You should be like a political fact-checker or something. Especially with your reputation for impartiality and well-considered opinions expressed concisely. /sarc

    • Murray Rawshark 2.6

      Fail. There is nothing contradictory in those two statements.

  3. wyndham 3

    Just as I was entering into the Christmas spirit of peace and goodwill, Pete George is back with a vengeance.

    What have I done to deserve this ?

  4. les 4

    PG always presents his viewpoint in a calm,reasoned fashion.Whether you agree with him or not you have to acknowledge that and his right to have an opinion.

    [lprent: Read the policy. We don’t care if it spat out in vile swearing (or with dots all over the place), just so long as it has an arguable point and the author is willing to explain, clarify, and defend their opinion. PG appears to be incapable of doing those elements that make up a ‘robust debate’. ]

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      PG always presents his viewpoint in a calm,reasoned fashion.

      Not really as there’s usually no reasoning behind it and he shifts the goal posts when called on it.

      • phillip ure 4.1.1

        “..PG always presents his viewpoint in a calm,reasoned fashion..”

        i see it more as a fussy/worrying/petty/nagging ‘fashion’..etc..

        ..i guess it must be in the eye of the beholder..eh..?

        ..he is kind of like a male weka..eh..?

        • Tracey 4.1.1.1

          Nothing like “a weka”, of any sex

          • batweka 4.1.1.1.1

            hmm, maybe I compared pu to PG recently? The difference of course would be that I was comparing behaviours, in context, that were relevent to the thread, as opposed to pu who likes to say unkind things about people as a way of undermining them, and that are completely irrelevant to the thing being discussed.

        • Bearded Git 4.1.1.2

          And PG always has a slyly anti left-wing bias.

          • lprent 4.1.1.2.1

            I describe him as a conservative in his outlook (not the party).

            It colours all of his ‘thinking’. You can see it in that his first instinctive response is usually his last. Unless he is challenged and kicked enough to display it as being an untenable position (and you have to really pin him down to do that). When you do, he whines about how nasty people are to do that.

            He also tends to have long term memory issues. He repeats that the same daft behaviours over and over again.

            Being a conservative isn’t an exclusive behaviour of the right. There are plenty who have it it on the left. However the right leaning ones like PG do seem to add a dogmatic stupidity that beliefs inculcated in childhood and early adulthood and then regurgitated as navel gazing wisdom beat actual thinking and study.

            Bores the hell out of me.

            And as felix says

            If you look closely he doesn’t usually respond to those who rebut his points either.

            But he always seems to have time for anyone who wants to talk about him.

            • Pete George 4.1.1.2.1.1

              Very funny. Like felix you often make little genuine effort to try and rebut points (I don’t think you’ve tried that at all here), but unlike him your moans are far more longwinded.

              There’s a lot of phrases you use that seem self descriptive. Is that deliberate or are you unaware?

        • Murray Rawshark 4.1.1.3

          That was totally unnecessary, Phil. Your smoking should be filling you with thoughts of love and universal oneness.

    • batweka 4.2

      No-one here has a problem with people expressing opinions. Many people here have a problem with how PG troles. Which is what he is doing now.

    • Tracey 4.3

      Sure. But, for example, he replaces “embargo” with “leak” as though they are interchangeable, when they are not.

      • Pete George 4.3.1

        As I’ve posted above Goff breached a “confidentiality order”.

        That’s an illegal leak.

        • phillip ure 4.3.1.1

          don’t you have some pencils to count..?..doilys to straighten..?

          ..or something..?

          ..couldn’t you make better use of yr time..?

        • Tracey 4.3.1.2

          So why didnt you post that paragraph in your opening post it would have made your point even better?

        • Skinny 4.3.1.3

          So what are you suggesting Pete treason?

          Firing squad at dawn?
          Public hanging?
          Public flogging then hung drawn & quartered outside parliament?
          A dose of waterboarding till he drowns?
          Electric chair?
          Lethal injection?
          Or do you suggest being really evil;
          A threesome with Judith Collins & Paula Bennett?
          A threesome with John Key & Cam Slater?

          Which one of the above turns you on?

          • Colonial Rawshark 4.3.1.3.1

            Whatever it may be, you can guarantee that John Key and his Ministers will get an easy ride from PG.

            • Pete George 4.3.1.3.1.1

              It looks like you have no idea what I post elsewhere, which would mean you’re making that up. You seem to have a habit of doing that, and not just with me.

              • felix

                Let’s do a quick factcheck on what Pete posts elsewhere.

                Seems to me his own blog is a fair place to start. It’s his gaff, his rules, and he can post what he likes.

                Front page of his blog has 10 posts. One is an open forum so let’s forget that and say nine posts. Of the nine posts:

                * Three (count em) are about Goff lying or leaking or squeaking or squawking or generally being a bad egg.

                * One is a mild criticism of Bill English, who said there would be a surplus and there isn’t, but it doesn’t matter much, and he still “generally deserves a lot of credit”. Which is a highly ironic turn of phrase considering the amount of debt he’s racked up, but I doubt that was deliberate on Pete’s part.

                * One is a repost of a stuff article featured on kiwiblog about google searches.

                * One is a repost of a section of an ODT editorial about how murder is bad. Pete concurs.

                * One is a repost of a video from Fox News about CIA torture, no obvious stance is taken by Pete except to say that the interview is “illuminating” and “sobering”.

                * One is a repost from “Stuff” of a section of a John Key speech in which he says that the NZ flag should be changed because it is too much like the Aussie one, and the fern is better. Pete adds a brief editorial comment to the effect that he agrees the flag is too much like the Aussie one.

                * And finally, one is a complaint about someone called Russell Brown who apparently banned Pete from somewhere. This came as some surprise to Pete as whatever he did it was only once, and he’s usually welcome everywhere due to his honesty and integrity, so I guess this Russell bloke is some newbie who just doesn’t understand the internets and Pete’s special place in them.

                • Murray Rawshark

                  Thanks. That had me in stitches.

                • David H

                  @Felix. At least it’s not as bad as Whales sewer. You don’t need the decontamination unit after visiting.

                • miravox

                  Thank you felix for going there so we didn’t have to.

                • Pete George

                  felix’s “quick factcheck” is misrepresentation. Take:

                  “One is a repost of a video from Fox News about CIA torture, no obvious stance is taken by Pete except to say that the interview is “illuminating” and “sobering”.”

                  Highlighting an interview on “CIA torture” should give a wee indication of my stance. I gave a brief summary of points including “very distressing”, “waterboarding didn’t work”, “told to do what was necessary”.

                  I added this quote:

                  The committee’s report showed that CIA and private medical professionals were centrally involved in the program, and that they “violated numerous international treaties, laws and ethical codes,” said the Physicians for Human Rights analysis.

                  Leading roles were played by two private psychologists, James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, who developed and administered the harsh techniques and formed a private company to which the CIA paid US$81 million (NZ$104m)

                  James Mitchell was the person who tried to defend his torture in the interview.

                  To which I said “Torturers are paid well in the US.” and “Remember Abu Ghraib?” with a picture of a bound prisoner being attacked by a dog.

                  felix chooses to trivialise torture by the US but I saw the interview as important enough to share so people could see a torturer making excuses for himself and the CIA, who Mitchell thinks should be trusted to do what is necessary and politicians should mind their own business.

                  I haven’t seen a post on this torture here. Make up your own mind what you think of the interview with a torturer trying to defend the CIA interrogation program he played a significant role in establishing and executing and along with his partner was paid US$81 million for his efforts.

                  The title of the post should be an obvious indication of my stance – A US torturer interviewed.

                  But this is trivial to felix, it seems more important for him to use tortured facts, favouring ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ here.

                  • felix

                    Hi Pete.

                    Could you please point to the part of your post where you give an opinion on CIA torture?

                    It’s all very well to say everyone should just know what you think, but your post gives no indication whatsoever.

                    Thanks.

                • @ felix..

                  “..Which is a highly ironic turn of phrase considering the amount of debt he’s racked up, but I doubt that was deliberate on Pete’s part..”

                  heh..!

          • Murray Rawshark 4.3.1.3.2

            Seeing it’s Goff, I’d accept banishment and expulsion from the Labour Party, same as I was suggesting last year.

          • David H 4.3.1.3.3

            “A threesome with Judith Collins & Paula Bennett?
            A threesome with John Key & Cam Slater?”

            Skinny Please. Not these just as I was going to bed. I want to dream. Not have the farking night terrors, not to wake up screaming, and in a cold sweat.

            Thanks mate 🙄

    • framu 4.4

      PG doesnt have a view point – well not one that he cares to be blunt about – so people have to put up with entire threads being dominated by him dancing round and generally wasting everyones time

      its not the opinion but the behaviour that has gotten him banned from more places than just here

      then to top it off once banned he stalks the blog and its commentors to moan about how mean they are on his blog

  5. Saarbo 5

    NZ MSM seem reluctant to report anything negative about NZ’s dairy fortunes: This is an interesting article suggesting Dairy is buggered through 2015. http://www.agrimoney.com/news/dairy-prices-to-stay-under-pressure-in-2015–7797.html

    • @ sarbo..

      ..dairy is ‘buggered’..for the forseeable future…

      http://whoar.co.nz/?s=dairy

    • Jimmy 5.2

      Oh I dont know, there are some articles comming from the MSM that tell it how it is.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/dairy/64160145/its-time-to-get-a-strategy-in-place

      Definately going too be a struggle for many.

      • Wonderpup 5.2.1

        I know nothing about farming. Nada, zilch. I remember hearing an RNZ documentary about the effects of destocking – lowering the number of cows – and the effect that can have of on the profitability of a farm – fewer cows, fewer inputs, higher relative profit with the added bonus of less runoff, and generally lower environmental impact.

        Then we can concentrate on higher value milk products rather than just milk powder – I mean, every middle class Cashmere family has been on a cheese making class, haven’t they?

        Maybe this could work for us in the long run. I’d really like to hear some informed responses.

        • Jimmy 5.2.1.1

          Thats how I choose to farm, and a lot will be changing the systems that they run.
          The high input guys will be first too suffer, and a lot will be changing back to a more traditional pasture based system to survive.
          In my experiance destocking was a positive, less cows, more milk was the outcome.

          • Colonial Rawshark 5.2.1.1.1

            That sounds about right. Too many cows per hectare = too much stress on the animals (etc.)

            • Karen 5.2.1.1.1.1

              Too many cows means having to import supplementary food for them while also spending enormous amounts on antibiotics at the vet. Not only that but the cows produce less milk because they are stressed. The result is the extra costs outweigh the extra milk. It is just a dumb way to farm.

              The so called dairy boom is costing this country heaps with increased imports of food for cows on top of all the interest on loans for dairy conversions enriching Australian banks.

              The damage to the environment is an additional cost we all have to bear.

      • Tracey 5.2.2

        Did you see an item on a Russian farmer of veggies yesterday Jimmy? Their interests rates just jumped to 17% and expected to rise further. He was talking about those he employs and their families.

        It made me wonder why our media dont cover similar stories that must be beginning to emerge amongst our family owned dairy farmers? Or is it too soon for the impact to have bitten?

        • Jimmy 5.2.2.1

          Still too soon for the impact to have bitten, among established farms anyway.
          New sharemilkers and new farm owners that dont have the buffer of last years high payout still in the system will be feeling the pinch about now.
          I expect the real impact still 6 to 12 months away.
          NZ unlikely too see Russian levels of interest, that would be a real problem.
          Lets hope price recovery is sooner than most forecast.

          • Tracey 5.2.2.1.1

            I understand @ levels of interest. I guess I was thinking that a few percentage points harms kiwi farmers, I cant begin to imagine what a 7% hike would be like.

            Also that the small family owned farmer suffers the world over…

          • phillip ure 5.2.2.1.2

            @ jimmy..

            “..Lets hope price recovery is sooner than most forecast…”

            ..as the global-glut in supply is forecast (at this stage) to last for the next five yrs..at least..

            ..that ‘hope’ cd well be false..

            • Jimmy 5.2.2.1.2.1

              You might be right Phillip, a glimmer of hope, with the latest global milk auction lifting over 2% and best of all, whole milk powder prices lifted as well. Still a long way too go, but if Ive learned anything farming.
              The experts dont know how it will pan out either.

              • that five yr glut prediction was in the economist..(from memory..if not that one..another credible rag..)

                ..plus there is the ongoing piling into the industry by so many big corporations/individuals/countries..(and iwi..!..there’ll be tears before bedtime there.!…treaty-settlement monies washed down the cow-shit drain..)

                ..that even more dairy produced reality will only compound that ‘glut’…

                ..then of course we have the impending global arrival of mu-free..

                ..(that will knock cow-milk/dairy on its’ arse..)

                ..just those two factors doom dairy..

                ..the ride on the cows’ back is over…

                ..(for both economic and environmental reasons..)

                ..time to go back to using land to grow real food..

                ..and the sooner that reality/realisation sinks in..

                ..the better..

                • Jimmy

                  Dairy production is based on the ability too feed cows cheaply, I dont think the world can do this for long.
                  Milk production is not about cows, but on availability of cheap feed supply to feed cows.
                  I cant see the world being able to do this for long, another drought across the american corn fields would change things dramatically.

                  (BusinessDesk) – The Reserve Bank expects whole milk powder prices to rise by about 44 percent next year as the slump in global prices this year prompts less competitive processors to scale back their production in the face of smaller returns.

                  The central bank expects whole milk powder, which is New Zealand’s dominant dairy export, to rise to US$3,200 a metric tonne by early 2016, from its current price of US$2,229/tonne as international producers who were lured by record prices last year are squeezed out by this year’s decline, governor Graeme Wheeler told Parliament’s finance and expenditure select committee after this morning’s monetary policy statement.

                  New Zealand’s advantage is that it’s the most competitive dairy producer in the world and can operate with lower prices than its rivals, he said. . .

                • The Al1en

                  “..then of course we have the impending global arrival of mu-free….(that will knock cow-milk/dairy on its’ arse..)”

                  Got a time frame for the death of dairy because of this frankenmilk?

                • apologies for mis-spelling..

                  http://muufri.com/

                  (from link..)

                  “..Our solution is to make real milk from the bottom up.

                  It’s a fairly simple mixture: six key proteins for structure and function – eight key fatty acids for flavor and richness.

                  In different ratios – these components give us cow’s milk – goat’s milk – or even buffalo milk –

                  – all suitable to become countless products – from toppings to cheeses to desserts.

                  Using the same principles of biotechnology behind beer or vegetarian rennet – Muufri will make milk that tastes and functions just like animal-produced milk –

                  – but without the problems associated with industrial animal facilities.

                  We don’t just solve problems – Muufri adds new value to dairy too.

                  Because we choose what goes into our product – we can choose to leave out lactose – which is at least partially indigestible by 75% of adults –

                  – and we can choose to leave out bad cholesterol – for a much healthier product.

                  And because our products are made with the same precision as medicines – they’ll be free of all bacteria –

                  – meaning a great-tasting milk with unprecedentedly long shelf life – no pasteurization needed..”

                  (this is the major disruptor for our dairy industry..

                  ..this is the future calling..)

                  • the dairy industries’ ‘uber’…eh..?

                    ..oh..!..the other factor/peril/disruptor i forgot to mention..

                    ..cost..

                    ..this product will be cheap as chips to make..

                    ..and so will sell for far less than the product from cows..

                    ..and it can be made anywhere..no need for vast tracts of land/lots of animals/infrastructure/hauling product halfway around the globe….

                    ..all in all..it’s not looking too crash hot for our cow-model..

                    ..is it..?

                    • and lest you shrug yr shoulders..and say..’we can always sell the meat’..

                      ..so ‘good’ you can’t tell the difference lab-grown meat..(with all the economic/environmental cost-qualities of muufri..)

                      ..is not that far away…

                      ..as i said..that ride on the animals’ backs..

                      ..that new zealand has enjoyed since the time of sealing..

                      ..is nearly over..

                  • The Al1en

                    Got a time frame for the death of dairy because of this frankenmilk? A prediction you’ll be prepared to stand behind whatever the outcome?

                    At the moment your frankenmilk claim is like saying traditional cars are out of here as soon as personal flying vehicles hit the market place… Except I suspect the take up of flying cars will be much greater than artificial milk and a lot easier to sell to the masses.

                    • Whatever timeframe is irrelevant – a little like being a futurologist – they are great, can say whatever and who is going to say, “hey back in 2014 you said xyz” when they can just say, “yep, got that one askew ha ha”

                    • @ mm..

                      ..it is being backed by one of the biggest food companies in america..

                      ..(and i am presuming it is a technology they will license for a global roll-out..no product transport costs etc..)

                      ..and i seem to remember late 2015-6 being cited for that roll-out..

                      ..even if a year or so later..it is soon..

                      ..and as for motivation..i am unsure of the size of the global market..

                      ..but doesn’t nz make $16 billion a year from dairy..?

                      ..who wouldn’t want to disrupt that..?

                      ..be in no doubt..economically..this is some scary shit..

                      ..and keep in mind that third..as yet unstated reason dairy is fucked..

                      ..namely that currently these big-time pollutors are exempted from the financial consequences of their actions..

                      ..that ain’t gonna last..is it..?

                      ..and of course those added costs will have to be passed on to the consumers..

                      ..however you milk it..

                      ..it looks grim…

                    • The Al1en

                      “Whatever timeframe is irrelevant”

                      Not really, in fact it’s vitally important. if dairy is to be wiped out because of this product, then prudent management of the economy would mean planning for the change to occur with a soft landing for the industry and kiwi workers needs to be made… Unless it’s not worth bothering about.

                      So yeah, time frame the claim.

                    • Good stuff phil – I also think the dairy industry won’t get through such things as the effects of climate change and peak oil. Mind you these effects take time to flow through and there may be a good year or two in there yet – but fundamentally the sun is setting on this one. Personally I think farmers should diversify now – not into other animals but into other crops – trees for instance and I mean fruit and nut trees – local trees for local communities. Hemp is another one that I really advocate – hemp products made locally from local hemp – oil, seeds, materials, building – the list is actually endless. Bit tough for the growers of weed though as you can’t grow that anywhere near hemp – for that reason alone you’d think even the dumbest anti-doper out there would support hemp, but oh no too thick, too indoctrinated and too short sighted – fuck em we’ll do it anyway!!!

                    • @allen

                      there is no soft- landing coming imo, so timeframes are really unimportant – certainly until this product hits the market and people either buy it or not – but I’m sure the big-brains behind the product will have thought this all through with exacting detail, as I’m sure our dairy industry will always be looking at the macro-environment and any new products that could affect them. Ask them if they are worried and report back.

                    • The Al1en

                      “there is no soft- landing coming imo, so timeframes are really unimportant – certainly until this product hits the market and people either buy it or not ”

                      So if it’s left to sales and marketing, there’s no guarantee that dairy is fucked by lab milk at all. The farmers, factory workers and truckies will be relieved then.

                      ” but I’m sure the big-brains behind the product will have thought this all through with exacting detail”

                      Can’t imagine big backing american companies giving too much thought for our kiwi workers when profit is at stake, but you never know.

                      “Ask them if they are worried and report back.”

                      Your idea, you go do it.
                      Let me know if they’re making plans for their financial armageddon. 2020 if the rapid dominance on global markets is to be believed don’t leave them long.

                    • No allen YOU find out the answer – I know what I know and I’m okay with that – you are the one questioning and we all know you don’t believe phil so find out for yourself or maybe stop asking questions you’re not interested in knowing the answer to.

                    • The Al1en

                      Happy to accept your cop out as a retreat.
                      Good work fella.

                    • lol – yes you are the winer of the internet – good for you lol

                    • The Al1en

                      Not of all of the internet, just the bits I play with. 😉

                      But there are plenty of valid points I’ve raised in our short exchange which you’ve conveniently ignored or just don’t want to respond to.
                      I agree, it’s pretty pointless going on and on if that’s the case.

                    • sorry forgot the ‘h’

                    • The Al1en

                      Easy mistake to make on the hinternet. 😉

                      A cop out and a lame insult. You got it up you bro?
                      Settle down, it’s only words.
                      Good job I only asked for a time frame to the end of dairy and not a hard one 😆

                    • don’t let your bitterness get in the way of some humour buddy – I answered the questions you didn’t really want any answers to – try tomorrow I’m sure you’ll catch phil out eventually…

                    • The Al1en

                      “don’t let your bitterness get in the way of some humour buddy – I answered the questions you didn’t really want any answers to – try tomorrow I’m sure you’ll catch phil out eventually…”

                      No bitterness here, mars. You dismissed the need for a time frame, which I claim is needed for prudent planning in order to protect kiwi workers, citing “Whatever timeframe is irrelevant” “I’m sure the big-brains behind the product will have thought this all through with exacting detail”. When I put forward that a us backed company won’t give a shit about kiwi jobs, like you, you took it all tangential and made it personal.

                      I will still take your cop out as your retreat, but you could just refuse to engage to save the embarrassment of playing word games cause you have no proper come backs, with fact or humour.
                      You could also just as easily not made any comment, given the value of your contribution and apparent motive, so want to revisit bitter again? Look much closer to home bruv.

                    • The Al1en

                      And my name isn’t allan. Not even close.

                    • “which I claim is needed for prudent planning in order to protect kiwi workers”

                      oh the pomposity

                      Any company that wants to release a major product into the market will have done much research as to expected uptake and all that marketing, selling stuff and sure they won’t really care about who they are taking the share off – that surely is a given – so timeframes for their ‘takeoveroftheworld’ will have been considered but nothing beats actually releasing the product and seeing what happens – that is one of the reasons that asking for timeframes is irrelevant and it is also why I suggested if you are really worried about ‘kiwi workers’ get onto our companies and ask them if they are worried or ask the ones with the product when it’s due for release – not really a major yet you have lost the plot because of that suggestion – why is that?

                    • The Al1en

                      So the time frame. Is it important or not. You keep contradicting yourself in your effort to slip in a dig. Like it will wreck the dairy industry as we know it, but then it’s wait and see until it’s released.
                      You can’t have it all ways.

                      “I also think the dairy industry won’t get through such things as the effects of climate change and peak oil. Mind you these effects take time to flow through and there may be a good year or two in there yet ”

                      “there is no soft- landing coming imo, so timeframes are really unimportant – certainly until this product hits the market and people either buy it or not ”

                      “Whatever timeframe is irrelevant”

                      ” so timeframes for their ‘takeoveroftheworld’ will have been considered but nothing beats actually releasing the product and seeing what happens – that is one of the reasons that asking for timeframes is irrelevant”

                      But regardless of your inconsistencies and writing off kiwi workers, you lost the chance at debate. Cartoons are on the tele and at least I know where they’re coming from. 😉

                    • The Al1en

                      “yet you have lost the plot”

                      And this years irony lol award for framing your opponent when you haven’t got proper answers after having your arse handed back to you goes to…

                      😆

                    • You are an idiot with a keyboard – the only inconsistency is in your ununderstanding. I don’t think I’ll try and help you anymore today, maybe tomorrow ka kite ano

                    • The Al1en

                      That’s also an acceptable cop out, though a little more aggressive than the last.

  6. vto 6

    Goff apologised.

    Has Key apologised yet for running smear campaign and corrupting government departments in the process? No?….. no wait, he has….. he has made one apology this year. It was to the fat slug Slater..

    poooowee…. what a stench the Slater and Key love-couple make

  7. Scott 7

    After the Sydney siege, Kiwibloggers call for collective punishment of Muslims:
    http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2014/12/sanitizing-new-zealand-kiwibloggers.html

    • Tracey 7.1

      Bloody hell. You are a brave man Scott. Boy did you reveal David Garrett for a nasty hate filled man. Can we judge ACT by the people they select.

      I am pretty sure that anyone who suggests violence to individuals or groups on this blog gets heavily moderated yet people say TS is worse that WO or KB

      • RedLogix 7.1.1

        Garret may have a point. The unique feature of Muslim communities is their extreme sexism and isolation of their young women.

        In most immigrant communities subsequent generations fairly rapidly merge with and adapt to the wider population, even while retaining much of their own identity. Much of this process is driven by their girls choosing boyfriends outside of their own families culture, something that may draw disapproval and resistance, but generally happens anyway.

        Not so your Middle Eastern honour cultures. They enforce cultural and religious continuity very rigorously. Which simply stalls the integration process and traps their community into medieval values and behaviour.

        Australians have responded remarkably well to this latest tragedy – but at the same time – it’s not Islamophobia to point out that Islam itself does not have clean hands here. This conversation needs to be a two way street.

        • Tracey 7.1.1.1

          It is still a hate filled venomous point which throws into question its motivation

        • batweka 7.1.1.2

          Can’t really have that conversation at this time Red.

          • RedLogix 7.1.1.2.1

            Given yesterday’s grotesque events in Pakistan – maybe it’s way past time we had it.

            • miravox 7.1.1.2.1.1

              Really? Because the children murdered weren’t muslim, nor were they the children of muslims? According to Garrett, the survivors of this massacre would be treated exactly the same as the perpetrators with regard to immigration.

              Either yesterday’s massacre has some point with regard to the treatment of women and girls in muslim societies or you’ve just thrown it in the mix for the hell of it.

              • RedLogix

                Here is my bottom line. I vehemently reject and condemn all aspects of purdah culture, in whatever form it takes. A search would reveal I have long taken this position and expressed it without compromise.

                It predates Islam, but regrettably it has become inextricably bound up with it by the beliefs and actions of ignorant, dangerous fundamentalists who have long held considerable sway in the Islamic world. The whole story of how this happened is way too long to include here.

                But clearly these fundamentalists have long objected violently to the education and freedom of women in their society. And while expressed more moderately by Muslims living in the Western world, the underlying attitudes of purdah culture are still evident to a disturbing degree.

                So yes I think it is relevant.

                • miravox

                  That still doesn’t explain the link between:
                  – Garrett’s call to ban all immigration from muslim countries
                  – with yesterday’s horrors (which Garrett seems to think all muslims are guilty of, regardless of who the victims were)
                  – and an Islamic attitude to women (that apparently all muslims who would be immigrants must have?).

                  I think you added in yesterday’s events for spectacular value rather than rationality.

            • batweka 7.1.1.2.1.2

              “Given yesterday’s grotesque events in Pakistan – maybe it’s way past time we had it.”

              Nevertheless, having the conversation this week will garner lots of reaction and less thoughtfulness. Is that what you want?

        • Bill 7.1.1.3

          The unique feature of Muslim communities is their extreme sexism and isolation of their young women.

          You really are fucking kidding, right? Please tell me you’re fucking kidding.

          No Christian community is extremely sexist! No Buddhist community isolates young women! Hindi communities are just dinky…!

          Most of you comment would have read quite well when the British Empire was forging itself, or even back in the days of the Christian crusades. Not so much these days though.

          • RedLogix 7.1.1.3.1

            Yeah I must be fucking kidding. Fundamentalist Christians, Hindi and Buddhists indulge in mass murder all the time. Sorry – forgot.

            • marty mars 7.1.1.3.1.1

              Those who commit mass murder come in all shapes, sizes, denominations, beliefs, ethnicities and so on – it seems to me a characteristic of many of them is intolerance for others who don’t think/act/believe like them.

            • batweka 7.1.1.3.1.2

              ” Fundamentalist Christians, Hindi and Buddhists indulge in mass murder all the time. Sorry – forgot.”

              How does that relate to you and Bill’s comment about sexism?

              • Bill

                It doesn’t. Been away all day and see it worked out as a damned fine piece of diversion though 😉

            • Tracey 7.1.1.3.1.3

              How does rape figure in your group think solution?

            • McFlock 7.1.1.3.1.4

              you really ought to read up on the partition of India/Pakistan/Bangladesh some time.

            • joe90 7.1.1.3.1.5

              Sorry – forgot.

              You’ve forgotten the ethnic cleansing in the Central African Republic, the communal violence directed at Rohingya in Myanmar and the ongoing persecution of Muslims by Hindus, really?.

              http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/central-african-republic-ethnic-cleansing-sectarian-violence-2014-02-12

              http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/06/16/opinion/nicholas-kristof-myanmar-documentary.html

              http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/09/us-india-election-violence-muslims-idUSBREA4807120140509

              • RedLogix

                Completely misdirected joe. It’s crazy to suggest that only Muslims commit mass murder. Why would anyone think that? But this is where I am coming from:

                I vividly recall sitting in an arrival hall in the port of Haifa waiting for a taxi. The place was almost empty. Father, mother and a daughter were waiting for someone to arrive. Father paced up and down the hall impatiently. Mother paced exactly two paces behind him. Daughter another two behind. Almost comical watching the quick shuffle necessary to maintain proper place when Father makes a U-turn at each end of the hall.

                Prodigal son enters and father rushes up to greet and hug him. Loud cries of joy from both, much fond back-slapping and praise. Finally son turns to mother and greets her with a short nod and a grunt. Daughter ignored totally.

                Father and son troop out arm in arm, mother two paces behind, daughter trailing as always.

                Or here in Australia recently we encountered our first full chador in a shop. Having lived in Israel a while I’m kind of used to them, but I’ve never seen my partner quite so angry and upset. No she didn’t say or do anything openly – but she was white and shaking.

                OK so these are anecdotes, I mention them as illustration only. But there is no question in my mind that Islam is unfortunately caught in an intersection between very old customs of purdah, a faith strongly weighted towards fundamentalism and an extremely aggressive attitude to apostasy.

        • Murray Rawshark 7.1.1.4

          You’re looking at a small, but visible, segment of the Muslim population. I know plenty of Muslims (maybe half of those I’ve met) who socialise outside what you might call their family’s culture.

          In some places, such as Australia and probably Aotearoa, when they try to move in wider circles, they get pushed back by idiot bogans. Not all Muslims act as if they are Exclusive Brethren, and very few are as filled with hate as that moran Garrett.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2

        Can we judge ACT by the people they select.

        I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what we’re supposed to do.

  8. logie97 8

    And this says it all.

    I am assuming Key has been quoted accurately so this really does sum his attitude to jobs/money …

    “Post-recession American businesses had learned to live with fewer employees and economic growth indicators from the United States were positive. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/64248579/flag-needs-to-scream-nz-john-key

    What hope for the great unwashed in Nuzild?

  9. adam 9

    Chris Trotter.

    Sometimes I just love what he writes. This time our shameful vote at the UN. The National party are a party of corporate elects – marching to the money drum – no morals, with no regard for our history, or us as a people.

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/12/sitting-on-our-hands.html

    • Bearded Git 9.1

      +100 adam

    • Murray Rawshark 9.2

      The US and A is prepared to openly embrace European fascists in order to have a go at Russia. They’ve been embracing Latin American fascists for years. Key runs yapping along behind the US, hoping that it’ll lift its leg and he’ll get a golden shower.

      What Trotter hasn’t mentioned is that besides supporting the Ukrainian fascists, the West is promoting a rewriting of history in the Baltic states. Right wing Balts are blaming Nazi atrocities on the Red Army, particularly the death of many Jews at the hands of locals after the Red Army retreated. This was Russia’s original motivation in promoting this resolution. To our shame, we’ve taken the side of the fascists.

      • The Murphey 9.2.1

        The ‘American’ administration which has been captured and has foreign policy directed by dual Israeli citizens and lobbied heavily by groups such as AIPAC for decades.

        Q.Why might that same administration ‘appear’ be “embracing fascists” ?

  10. KJS0ne 10

    Jon Stewart had a hilarious take on the Conservo-media and conservative talking heads’ response to the Torture Report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmuuqqHLEKo

    Incisive as usual.

    • ianmac 10.1

      KJSOne Pretty awful denials/deflections/rejections from the establishment which was complicit in the Torture Program. Do we wonder where John Key learned to react to problems in a similar way? Jon Stewart sure is a master at cutting to the chase.
      Maybe when there is a huge problem the general population cannot process because it is to hard to imagine. Most Americans are fair minded- aren’t they? Dirty Politics is a fairly big issue for us, and yet there isn’t a huge people response. But lets get to the issue of cheese crusts in pizzas or the shape of a flag. Ah! Can have an opinion on that sort of thing.

      • KJS0ne 10.1.1

        “Most Americans are fair minded-aren’t they?”

        Like every nation, it depends on the issue, and how educated they are on the matter. If you were to ask if Americans are growing wiser to the bullshit spewed forth by the talking heads on the television (that Stewart makes a mockery of), I would say yes. People are gradually switching off to the spin doctored rhetoric. Even here in NZ: Take for instance the outrage people felt towards John Key for trying to use the horrible situation in Sydney to his political advantage.

        I would say the tide of public belief is tentatively turning.

  11. Anne 11

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/262100/documents-released-to-nicky-hager's-lawyers

    Could someone enlighten me about this piece of news re- Nicky Hagar’s case against the police raid? Maybe a resident lawyer on this site can explain what exactly it means in layman/woman’s terms?

    Not referring to the court case in March but the rest of it.

    • karol 11.1

      It looks to me that Hager & lawyers are looking to contest the legality of the raid on Hager’s house. Therefore, they are asking to see the documents that presumably indicate why the police thought they were justified in doing the raid.

      It seems they will get most of the documents, but with some things redacted.

      Team Hager also want to know if and/or what the police decided about the waiving of journalistic privilege to protect sources.

  12. Jimmy 12

    This is insane: “Although the proteins in Muufri milk come from yeast, the fats come from vegetables “…. The cost of extracting fats from vegetables are very high, requiring water, fertilizer, and high quality farm-land. In contrast, cows are designed to produce fats from readily available grasses growing on marginal farm-land. This is called “sustainable agriculture”.

    The kind of reductionist thinking behind this idea, producing milk from yeast and vegetable fats, is the same kind of reductionist thinking that generated mega-dairies, and corn-fed animals: basically that we can ignore natural cycles and produce food in an engineered, industrial environment. The end result here is MORE use of fossil fuels, further reliance on engineered food products, and ignoring natural cycles.

    • b waghorn 12.1

      Listen closely I can here Mr ure’s high horse coming.

      • The Al1en 12.1.1

        Making animals smoke drugs – That’s just cruel to the horse

        • marty mars 12.1.1.1

          so hopefully your wild fears about kiwi workers are well and truly put to rest now allen

          • The Al1en 12.1.1.1.1

            Tbf the cartoons were way more fun.

            Okay, as ignoring points is a hot topic today, let’s dissect this post.

            “your wild fears about kiwi workers ”

            If dairy is to be killed by lab milk, as repeatedly claimed by pu, and backed up by you, then asking for a time frame of these catastrophic consequences in order for the nation, it’s economy heavily and overly dependant and reliant on the industry, to prepare and make contingency plans to enable as soft a landing as possible is hardly wild by most of rational thought who aren’t looking to settle old scores or argue for the sake of it.

            “well and truly put to rest now”

            I don’t think for one minute that your contradictory position, after agreeing with the death of NZ dairy to ‘wait and see when it’s released’, will make any difference as the sh1t won’t sell anything like the numbers needed to ruin the dairy industry. Lactose intolerance folk and veggos aside I predict, on gut feeling, it’s pie in the sky wishful thinking.
            But if its going to do as claimed, then that time frame before the ruination of a primary sector isn’t something so easy to be dismissed as irrelevant.
            Would I also use a failed estimate as a weapon to beat pu with, yep, absolutely.

            “allen”

            To call someone by a name that isn’t theirs after being informed of the error is particularly ignorant, malicious and disrespectful. That’s what you have become in your rush to ire – Like deliberately forgetting the h in Whanganui, Mr double standards. 😉
            I don’t mind too much, but if you’re going to address me, do it properly or don’t bother is the default position, right? 🙂

            • marty mars 12.1.1.1.1.1

              firstly I’ll call you whatever I feel like, just as you call me mars. right?

              Secondly I never actually agreed with phils assertion that this will destroy dairy but I do think dairy has a very limited future due to the reasons I mentioned above and I offered 3 solutions or 2 if we are being pedantic.

              You don’t think artificial milk will destroy dairy yet you persist in wanting a timeframe for this (as far as you are concerned) nonexistent threat and the reason you did is? Concern for kiwi workers and dairy farm owners – nah, concern for the economy of this country – nah – why then? To get an estimate from phil which fails so you can beat him up with it – whew very high and noble goals indeed.

              The above makes my good intentioned assertion that a timeframe is irrelevant even more compelling.

              • The Al1en

                “firstly I’ll call you whatever I feel like”

                Just like michael laws. Good for you mars. See double standards.

                “Secondly I never actually agreed with phils assertion that this will destroy dairy”

                Yes you did, after this pu post http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18122014/#comment-941932 key word being ALSO – “Good stuff phil – I also think the dairy industry won’t get through such things as the effects of climate change and peak oil.”

                If you can’t remember what you’ve written then it’s fortunate I do. 😉
                But then this isn’t about time frames, lab milk and kiwi jobs to you is it? If you admit you just weighed in for the fuck of it, at least that’d be something. Disingenuous and petty, but still something.

                Covered the last bit, your self justification for posting like a sad knobber, in my previous post at 12.1.1.1.1 Key bit being “But if its going to do as claimed, then that time frame before the ruination of a primary sector isn’t something so easy to be dismissed as irrelevant.”

                And yeah, I’d slap pu’s idiocy upside his head, left right and round and down again… At least twice.

                • lol sorry allen I also think that you have just been pulling your pud on this one but I understand your frustration so I’ll ignore your nastiness and let you catch some z’s – nighty night 🙂

                  • The Al1en

                    Cop out strike number three. You’re outta here 😆

                    • 🙄 you are sad but wanting so much attention and reinforcement – complex issues indeed 🙂

                    • The Al1en

                      If that were true, and being an anonymous medium it could well be, to end on a smile afterwards is more than a little bit harsh.

                      As it is, unlike my music, I wouldn’t post if I didn’t think anyone was reading, so no biggie to me, but be careful who you write that to in future. Mocking the afflicted* isn’t as cool as you might think, so think on. 😉

                      * Including those with religious cognitive dissonance

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      The cost of extracting fats from vegetables are very high, requiring water, fertilizer, and high quality farm-land.

      Conditions needed would depend upon the plant. Some plants are very tough and grow pretty much anywhere under any conditions. Also, extracting vegetable oils from plants can’t be that expensive else margarine would be more expensive than butter.

      In contrast, cows are designed to produce fats from readily available grasses growing on marginal farm-land. This is called “sustainable agriculture”.

      Cows don’t really do well on marginal land and the land does even worse. Calling that sustainable is being totally delusional.

      The end result here is MORE use of fossil fuels,

      What makes you think that?

      That said, I think that you’ll find that soy milk is cheaper to produce than cow milk or the muufree stuff.

      • batweka 12.2.1

        Humans have been herding milk animals in difficult landscapes for millennia and some of them have done it sustainably. What’s being discussed here is commodity growing. If you look at how to grow food locally for people that live locally then the whole thing changes.

  13. Jimmy 13

    Sorry above post in response to Phillip ure. Tech difficulties using iPhone

    • batweka 13.1

      It was a good deed commenting outside of that thread though 😉

      Completely agree with the points about reductionist thinking leading to industrialised, environment damaging food production.

      We have some precedents for this (eg industrial soy). Eating less animal foods is a good idea. Going vegan is never going to be sustainable for whole populations, which is why it’s almost never been done before. There’s a reason that humans are evolved to eat meat – animal protein is very efficient (fat too).

  14. joe90 14

    Times they are a changing – Cuba, NY’s governor bans fracking and now this.

    .

    Tucked deep inside the 1,603-page federal spending measure is a provision that effectively ends the federal government’s prohibition on medical marijuana and signals a major shift in drug policy.

    The bill’s passage over the weekend marks the first time Congress has approved nationally significant legislation backed by legalization advocates. It brings almost to a close two decades of tension between the states and Washington over medical use of marijuana.

    Under the provision, states where medical pot is legal would no longer need to worry about federal drug agents raiding retail operations. Agents would be prohibited from doing so.

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-medical-pot-20141216-story.html

  15. felix 15

    And over at National’s blog, David Farrar is blatantly lying about the Greens. Again.

    http://donotlink.com/http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/12/greens_again_call_for_cows_to_be_culled.html

    tl;dr : Greens say dairy herd should be reduced, Farrar shrieks ‘THEY WANT TO MUUUUUURDER THE COWS’.

    And his minions dutifully jump in and repeatedly call for the Greens to be murdered, which is fine apparently.

    Geez he’s a lying worthless sack of shit.

    • Paul 15.1

      An integral part of the Dirty Politics machine.
      He is quite a revolting character, happy to spread smears, slanders and untruths to divide people for the benefit of his corporate masters.
      Wonder what triggers such antisocial behaviours?

      • Paul 15.1.1

        I would imagine Farrar has no issues with the cruelty and methods of factory farming of animals for profit.
        There is clear hypocrisy here.

        • felix 15.1.1.1

          Farrar and the rest of kiwiblog don’t know much about farming at all, seeing as how they think reducing the size of a herd means “culling”.

          Last time they were running this lie his tro11s were insisting that that’s the only way to control herd size ‘cos the cows just keep breeding.

      • Draco T Bastard 15.1.2

        Wonder what triggers such antisocial behaviours?

        Being a sociopath and/or a psychopath would probably do it.

    • The Murphey 15.2

      Q. Where is the compassion from Farrar about the murders carried out in Palestine by ‘his herd’?

  16. greywarshark 16

    Why am I being told that – my comment is wrong. And answer is because it is spam.
    That’s very rude – I presume coming from the ghost in the machine. Bloody annoying.

  17. greywarshark 17

    Okay I have caught on now. The slot under the comment window is a spam checker which I have never had to bother about before. So put the required figures in an got through the barrier.

    @ phillip ure
    You refer to m u free. For those like me who don’t know everything I think that this refers to a talking station about being fossil free from Melbourne University.

    This was a facebook input on their site.
    Fossil Free M U
    19 hours ago
    Have you registered for Global Divestment Day yet? If not, make sure you get to it post-haste. The Melbourne event is shaping up to be quite the day http://gofossilfree.org/australia-gdd/

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