Open mike 19/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 19th, 2021 - 174 comments
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174 comments on “Open mike 19/07/2021 ”

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  1. Patricia Bremner 1
    19 July 2021 at 7:28 am

    Thinking of those so badly affected by weather events, in both islands and in Europe.

  2. Jimmy 2
    19 July 2021 at 7:32 am

    I wonder if those people on the lowest wage rate feel any better off now that they are earning $20 an hour. With inflation running high they will now need another pay rise to keep up. But that will increase inflation further.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125733642/nzs-jump-in-inflation-to-33-a-problem-of-growth-says-finance-minister

    • Treetop 2.1
      19 July 2021 at 8:03 am

      It was inevitable that inflation would rise due to a global pandemic.

      Can it be forecast how quick and how high inflation will rise?

    • KJT 2.2
      19 July 2021 at 8:19 am

      Funny how we always hear about wage rises, "causing inflation" and not extra profit taking, bank interest rates, asset stripping, privatisation of infrastructure and services, the increase in capital share of the economy, while the wages share has decreased, and executive salaries.

      We have just had this illustrated locally with dog licence fees. A 50% increase. Obviously the private contractor that won the contract with a cheap quote isn't making enough, despite dropping the pay of their staff when they took over

      • Jimmy 2.2.1
        19 July 2021 at 10:55 am

        My large coffee from Dunkin donuts went from $5.60 to $6.00 pretty much as soon as the wage increases came in to effect. (I hadn't noticed dog regos increasing that much, I just paid $107 but cant remember what I paid last year).

        I still think reducing tax on the first say, $30k of earnings, would have been better than increasing costs to businesses and therefore inflation.

        • KJT 2.2.1.1
          19 July 2021 at 12:04 pm

          I would agree with removing the ,"paper boy tax".

          However continuing to subsidise inefficient businesses with low wages, that tax payers then have to top up, is not good for the economy or even business, long term

        • SPC 2.2.1.2
          19 July 2021 at 12:54 pm

          I'd rather have the government with the tax revenues to pay nurses more and fully staff wards.

          • KJT 2.2.1.2.1
            19 July 2021 at 2:35 pm

            That requires taxes on those who can afford to pay, and have also benefited the most from tax funding.

            Those of us who are well off. Including CGT, etc so that those currently avoiding tax have to contribute.

            Incomes under say 30k should not be taxed

            • SPC 2.2.1.2.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 2:45 pm

              There is a high tax loss to a zero tax band up to $30,000 (one would have to apply a 33 cents rate from $30,000 to claw the cut back from those on higher than median wage incomes).

              The historic alternative was an income tax rebate for those on lower incomes.

              • KJT …
                19 July 2021 at 2:51 pm

                Not impossible. If we apply the same rate we do now to the band's up to twice the median income. And taxed gains, and income with a top rate similar to Oz.

            • Descendant Of Smith 2.2.1.2.1.2
              19 July 2021 at 10:38 pm

              Would be nice if those with non-working (disabled, unwell or otherwise) partners got a tax break.

              The extra $5,000 to $6,000 paid in tax each year over a couple earning the same amount via two incomes would at least allow one income couples to join Kiwi-saver or pay a bit extra off the mortgage.

              It is a decent chink of extra money that goes to the government while trying to support two people. Basically $100 plus per week net income.

        • Poission 2.2.1.3
          19 July 2021 at 12:58 pm

          Coffee bean increases are well up with Arabica up 56%,as are most food groups reaching decade price levels globally.

          https://twitter.com/i/events/1416772045053087746

          Food security is a well defined boundary under the Paris agreement,something policymakers need to understand.

          • KJT 2.2.1.3.1
            19 July 2021 at 2:38 pm

            Everyone seems to forget about commercial rents. In several local businesses I have numbers for, it exceeds the wage bill.

            Typically rent increases recently have been 50 to 100% while total costs of employees have increased around 10%.

            • Poission 2.2.1.3.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 2:44 pm

              Commercial rent growth should have been constrained,due to the Covid response policy of the reintroduction of depreciation.Rates growth however are ursury at best.

    • Sabine 2.3
      19 July 2021 at 9:27 am

      well, not everyone will feel better, never mind inflation.

      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/majority-beneficiaries-wont-20-better-off-despite-budget-boost

      But modelling from the Ministry of Social Development for Budget 2021 shows that 193,000 individuals and families are estimated to receive less than $20 per week because the additional financial assistance they receive for accommodation or other costs will fall as a result of their main benefit rising.

      It is estimated 178,000 people will receive an increase of $20 or a little bit more.

      …….

      Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni said it's a $20 net benefit increase and that the Government had never shied away from the fact that there would be payment adjustments because of supplementary support payments.

      Sepuloni is adamant most beneficiaries will receive more than $15 per week.

      "There will be a few that fall below that but the vast majority of people will be getting more than $15 per week."

      One hand giveth, one hand taketh. Thus it is, and always was.

      • Molly 2.3.1
        19 July 2021 at 10:51 am

        +1. And that $15 will likely fall short of the rise in the cost of living in reality, regardless of spin.

    • McFlock 2.4
      19 July 2021 at 12:06 pm

      3.3%, huh. Tragic lol

      $20/hr from $18.90/hr = 5.8% increase.

      Inflation 3.3%.

      2.6% pay rise in real terms.

      But you had a 7.1% hike in your latte price. I suspect you're using faux concern for the wellbeing of minimum wage workers to preserve your comfortable emphatically-not-minimum-wage lifesyle, Mr $6 Coffee.

      • gsays 2.4.1
        19 July 2021 at 12:14 pm

        That's a long-winded "Wanker!".

      • Gabby 2.4.2
        19 July 2021 at 1:10 pm

        Now why would you focus on coffee rather than rent or food? Trying to think why that would be.

        • McFlock 2.4.2.1
          19 July 2021 at 1:21 pm

          Because that's what Jimmy brought into the discussion.

          Responding to what is actually in someone else's comment often seems to cause confusion around here, or even be regarded as an unfair tactic. If you can figure out why that would be, let me know.

        • Jimmy 2.4.2.2
          19 July 2021 at 5:28 pm

          Coffee was just the first example I thought of. Yes rents and petrol have increased significantly too but not due to minimum wage increase. Also many examples of price increases at the supermarket (even the cheap bread).

          I still believe the tax bands need to be increased (as KJT has mentioned above) as you only need to earn over $48k in a year to then start paying 30% which IMO is way too high. Even a person fulltime on minimum wage is getting close ($41,600?) to that rate.

          • gsays 2.4.2.2.1
            19 July 2021 at 5:55 pm

            Sorry about the wanker observation.

            In my wafer thin defence, it was buying from Dunkin Donuts that tipped me over the edge. In a past life I was a pioneer, introducing espresso to a rural town.

      • Sabine 2.4.3
        19 July 2021 at 1:23 pm

        The news of Government giving and taking, it was under National exactly the same. So why so bitter that it is exactly the same under Labour.

      • Sabine 2.4.4
        19 July 2021 at 1:34 pm

        Actually

        rents have gone up,

        insurance cost have gone up,

        dairy has gone up,

        eggs, flower etc all gone up,

        rates – paid by the leaseholders of commercial properties up,

        as for the wage increase this 1 dollar will also affect kiwi saver, holiday pay, sick leave, maternity leave, bereavement leave, domestic violence leave, miscarriage leave etc.

        Coffee is getting very expensive soon, in your supermarket too, as well like Cocoa Beans and soon enough also Tea we are hell bent on cutting down the forrests that grow these fruits in order to grow some soy beans n stuff. But if you grow dandylions in your garden – pesticide free of course – you can dig the roots up, roast them and they will make a good Kaffee Ersatz.

        As for the 6 dollar coffee, no one needs to buy one. Free country.

      • Cricklewood 2.4.5
        19 July 2021 at 1:44 pm

        To be fair I expect when you look at the 'basket' of goods used to calculate the cpi the items which a minimum wage earner would buy have increased greater than the 3.3 percent figure.

        • McFlock 2.4.5.1
          19 July 2021 at 3:11 pm

          yeah, probably. I suspect an expression of genuine concern would look at issues like that, rather than bitching about the price of lattes.

          But then talking rents and basics here is like reminding Greenpeace members that greenhouse gases are bad.

          Tories are all about concern for the poor when they really want to leverage that concern to only help themselves.

          When they get a pay rise and the lattes are still cheap, their concern for the poor is promptly overruled by the plight of the struggling small business owner who is being extorted by hospo/retail/farm workers who want a living wage.

    • SPC 2.5
      19 July 2021 at 12:52 pm

      The MW goes up every year. 2.5% on $20 is 50 cents (even National increased it by that much most years). Labour usually does it by around a dollar – that's 5%.

      Inflation while house prices flat-line (as they will when mortgage rates rise) is the only way to reduce property values to incomes.

    • Patricia Bremner 2.6
      19 July 2021 at 4:07 pm

      Jimmy, there is a pandemic on. I guess by your rhetorical question you think there is no sensible reply.

      Imported inflation and transport woes, creating competition for goods is the cause of 2/3rds of the inflation.

      Nobody is really "better off" in the current situation. Even those gaining through house sales are finding rises outstrip the "gain" unless they are buying down or cashing up.

      Those on lower fixed incomes will feel it most along with the unemployed and underemployed. The fact the economy is bouyant gives job security for many.

      Those business models relying on low paid workers with low margins on high volumes, will come under pressure, and yes those workers are always at the margins. Some businesses need a government mandate to raise wages.

      Sadly when they get squeezed they cut hours. Then they wonder why people are not spending. Self defeating behaviour.

      Often they will blame regulations or employment law for their predicament, as it has become a mind set in, for example, the fast food industry.

  3. Treetop 3
    19 July 2021 at 7:55 am

    The Olympic games test athletes physically and psychologically. Due to the global Covid – 19 pandemic it is likely that medal contention will come down to not being infected with Covid or if infected with Covid how a person's immune system responds.

    I am interested to know if an athlete will be disqualified because they are infected with Covid or if they are a close contact and will be told to isolate?

    • Forget now 3.1
      19 July 2021 at 9:29 am

      The South African athletes and support staff (2+1) who tested positive are isolating. The British (6+2) who were contacts of different positive individual on the flight over to Japan are confined to their rooms for now, waiting test results.

      https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/18/south-africa-footballers-test-positive-for-covid-19-in-tokyo-olympic-village

      If it manages to take out all human competitors before a sport's medal ceremony, the Olympics ought to award the medal for that sport to the virus!

      • Treetop 3.1.1
        19 July 2021 at 10:46 am

        It appears that teams competing are a lot more vulnerable than individual competitors.

        Any ceremony for awarding medals is going to be contentious due to appeals for being disqualified.

        Can the Olympic Committee prevent an athlete from competing due to Covid?

  4. Forget now 4
    19 July 2021 at 9:15 am

    This sounds like a nasty risk for anyone who has used certain apps on their phones. And it's not entirely certain what apps they all are yet. WhatsApp and iMessage seem particularly vulnerable.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/what-is-pegasus-spyware-and-how-does-it-hack-phones

    Fortunately, it seems the old; switch it off then on again, trick still works for the moment. I prefer to leave my phone in a bag pocket where it can't spy on me when I am not using it, though I guess it still gets location data and incoming messages there. However, I do often miss text beeps; which is sometimes an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage

    • weka 4.1
      19 July 2021 at 9:34 am

      That’s enough for me to turn off iMessage. Hardly ever use it anyway

      how does putting your phone in a bag stop it being tracked?

      • Forget now 4.1.1
        19 July 2021 at 10:48 am

        Having my phone in a pocket of a handbag inside a backpack blocks the camera from filming me under remote control. It probably also muffles the audio to the point where it is ambiguous unusable too. Doesn't do anything about being cell-tower location tracked though (unless I fully turn it off as well – some people say take the battery out too, but that's easier said than done with newer phones).

        TBH, I mainly do it so all my stuff is in one easily grabbable package when I need to rush out somewhere while juggling kids.

        • weka 4.1.1.1
          19 July 2021 at 12:42 pm

          Ah, I get you now.

          I have location services turned off as default and a few other tricks, but it's getting harder and harder.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.2
      19 July 2021 at 9:52 am

      I know my Samsung 4g phone not only eavesdrops on verbal conversations but also 'mines' data from text messages. Where we live we have very limited and occasional cell coverage, so it is only the occasional txt that gets through. I once sent a txt to an acquaintance suggesting a particular make and model of campervan she could consider buying. Within 1/2 an hour this laptop I'm using now threw up an ad for the self-same vehicle. The phone and laptop share our independent provider wifi. This type of thing has been happening for a few years now and has gone beyond spooky. Short of putting the phone in a foil-lined baggie….we have no idea how to manage this other than having the occasional piss-take loud conversation to see if we can provoke a Minority Report response.cheeky

      And because our wifi also provides our 'landline' phone, a power cut would render us incommunicado. Keeping the cellphone in a spot where occasionally we get reception is kind of necessary.

      • SPC 4.2.1
        19 July 2021 at 1:31 pm

        The move from copper wire landlines to broadband connected landline phones would enable warrant less surveillance.

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.2.1.1
          19 July 2021 at 1:57 pm

          Ah, copper! Chorus, bless them, no longer maintain the copper lines here in the North of the North. Those still on the copper have seriously shit service. Those of us unable to hook into the copper rely on either crap cell- based hotspotting or line -of- sight signal wifi such as Uber. Which doesn't work in a power cut.

          • SPC 4.2.1.1.1
            19 July 2021 at 2:01 pm

            My Vodafone source no longer provides copper landline service in areas where its HFC cable service is available (Wellington and Christchurch) – we get our phones linked to the broadband modem (presumably so they can stop paying Chorus for the copper wire upkeep).

    • tc 4.3
      19 July 2021 at 12:39 pm

      That's all they can be sure of having proved it out.

      Zero day vulnerabilities in the OS, Bluetooth, network etc and the no touch aspect are major concerns….what's not known and currently being exploited.

  5. KSaysHi 5
    19 July 2021 at 9:21 am

    I thought that the govt made most apprenticeships free? If so you have to ask the question, when the armed forces demonstrate so clearly how you will be treated, why stay on?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125748342/covid19-defence-force-booting-unvaccinated-apprentices-off-trades

    • Molly 5.1
      19 July 2021 at 10:58 am

      Given that the Defence Force is managing many of the MIQ facilities, and so where they are being deployed at the moment… that seems to be in line with existing protocols for vaccination when they are deployed overseas and need to get vaccinated for malaria, diptheria etc.

      It's one of the many expectations that are made of you when you enlist. Should not come as a surprise.

      From your link: “But it’s no different to any other vaccination process we go through. There will be a number of people who cannot be vaccinated, and an obvious one is pregnant service people and those that have underlying issues at the moment.

      “So we’re not going hard on any issue. We’re just saying you need to volunteer. It’s no different to what they’ve volunteered for in joining the organisation.”

      My nephew has just recently marched out, in one of the first intakes since Covid-hit. He will be in a trade, BUT his first deployment is to an MIQ unit. The Defence Force has responsibilities beyond providing trades training, and interweaves both.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1
        19 July 2021 at 11:20 am

        A young friend has been serving for nearly a decade and has been in Trades Training for less than a year. She has declined this vaccine as there was no satisfactory guarantee that it will not affect her ability to have kids…the Pfizer mRNA vaccine having no long term safety data on effects on fertility. The sticking point here is that instead of being able to simply leave the armed forces, she has to work out her time to make up for time spent doing her trades training. This will be a very difficult time for her and the other 'refusniks' as since she is not vaccinated with this new vaccine her duties will be extremely limited.

        As is said in the article…this The Return of Service Obligation is vindictive, under these circumstances.

        Just let them leave, and get on with their lives.

        Some of these youngsters are highly skilled and very capable and have much to offer the wider community.

        • Sabine 5.1.1.1
          19 July 2021 at 11:33 am

          Then they should pay for the training received as they are highly skilled and very capable and have much to offer to the wider community and where they will be paid according to their skills.

          don't join a group that has mandatory vaccinations if one is worried about getting vaccinations or is selective about which vaccinations to get.

          The training they received costs money. They could have left that training space to someone who has no issues getting the vaccination.

          As far as i know, military service in NZ is voluntary not mandatory.

          • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.1.1
            19 July 2021 at 12:22 pm

            Then they should pay for the training received … I wonder how many young women join the forces because they come from lower socio-economic backgrounds and are not in a position to take out large loans to pay for tertiary or trades training? They want to get ahead…but can't afford to get into debt.

            These same young women will suffer greater impact should they have to pay refund the cost of their trades training.

            They were also working hands- on during that training as well as still being serving personnel, I'll have to find out if this is taken into consideration at the accounting session.

            In the US, where Te Covid has run rampant with the bodies piling up in the streets, the military has struggled to bring the vaccination rates up. Even 'shoot em up' Biden has refused to make the Covid vaccines mandatory…possibly because…

            Military leaders have long insisted that they cannot require coronavirus vaccinations — as they do for myriad other inoculations — because each type is being administered under an emergency use authorization and has yet to receive formal approval from the Food and Drug Administration.

            Meanwhile in the UK, the Vaccine roll out to the armed forces should be well underway by the end of this month. And 'Blighty has a particularly clever method for incentivising vaccine uptake…

            …orders to the Royal Artillery and Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers state:

            “Covid-19 vaccination. Anyone who is refusing to have the CV-19 jab is to be educated by the CoC (Chain of Command) and any rumours quashed. If they still refuse they may be deemed as unfit to soldier and dealt with accordingly as the CV-19 jab may be a requirement to deploy on operations/exercises, much like yellow fever.”

            The Daily Mail report(s) that by law the Army cannot force soldiers to get jabs. Yet being ‘unfit to soldier’ is an offence under the Armed Forces Act.

            • Sabine 5.1.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 12:42 pm

              I had this discussion several years ago with two kids whom i have helped grow up for a while, who came from a single mom, no money household in France.

              Both the boy and the girl were wanting to join the Army for training and jobskills. France is involved in military conflict in various places and has had its fair share of soldiers come back in a box or come back with all sorts of mental and physical issues.

              During the discussion the kids were trying to tell me how awesome the job training would be. I agreed with them, but i also told them that the first job training they would get was that on how to best and most efficiently kill a person. I told them if you do not want to go to Mali (on of the 'conflict' zones) to kill people, you better don't join the Army. The boy did join the army, the girl did not.

              So a young person in NZ i would advise that if you don't want vaccinations or are selective in the vaccinations one is comfortable with, Don't join the Army. Try and get your training elsewhere. Simple as. And joining the Army and being told what to do, when and for how long is in effect a sort of 'student loan'.

              Once you join the Army, you are no longer a 'free citizen', you are a Member of the Army and as such subordinate to orders, some of whom may go against ones believes. It sucks, but as i said, the Army is voluntary here, not mandatory.

              • Molly …
                19 July 2021 at 2:06 pm

                I come from Army parents, and have close relatives serving. They are aware of the cost/benefit choice they made.

                During the discussion the kids were trying to tell me how awesome the job training would be. I agreed with them, but i also told them that the first job training they would get was that on how to best and most efficiently kill a person. I told them if you do not want to go to Mali (on of the 'conflict' zones) to kill people, you better don't join the Army. The boy did join the army, the girl did not.

                I had the same discussion with my children. Despite the very interesting lives led by their relatives, including varied deployments, and overseas trips, including several to Antartica, the possible involvement in questionable exercises or conflicts didn't appeal.

                Everything costs in one form or another.

  6. Sabine 6
    19 July 2021 at 9:29 am

    A little nice tool to check just where the world is on fire – well unless the world is drowning.

    This little neat feature now has a 'bio' option and all the little red and yellow dots are fires. Siberia. oh boy.

    https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/bio/surface/level/annot=fires/orthographic=134.78,23.31,396/loc=134.666,23.090

  7. Sabine 7
    19 July 2021 at 9:35 am

    And while we have our own floods here,

    the ones in Europe are now in Germany – Rhurland – the ones were now 188 people are dead, and a 1000 still missing, are also in Saxony, Bavaria, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, last week England/London and so on and so forth.

    In Bavaria and Austria alone another huge rain falls are expected. – Both Bavaria and Austria 'should' have dry summers from July/Aug/Sept.

    In Canada in the meantime fruit bakes on trees and in the fields, mussels cook in their beds, and towns spontaneously combust into fire.

    Maybe we need a shift form feel good Band-Aids that give us a bit of a sugar rush of 'helping the environment' and more of a realization that we are now well past the idea that tinkering on the edges will change and or prevent these 1 in 1000 years events.

    And while Oregon burns in the US, Flagstaff in Texas is having flashfloods.

    https://twitter.com/christofspieler/status/1415496090015698944

    As for us here in NZ, i pity the people that have lost their houses as i expect them to find it quite hard to rebuild atm.
    If anyone has a link for donations to local groups to give to i would appreciate it as i would love to direct some money to where need is. Thanks.

    • Molly 7.1
      19 July 2021 at 11:01 am

      "Maybe we need a shift form feel good Band-Aids that give us a bit of a sugar rush of 'helping the environment' and more of a realization that we are now well past the idea that tinkering on the edges will change and or prevent these 1 in 1000 years events."

      I agree. Often feel out of step with others when talking about the imperative need to address climate change and the destruction of the environment immediately, effectively and from now on.

  8. Jane B 8
    19 July 2021 at 11:31 am

    Firstly, I'm a little disturbed at the premise of a cis women's only debating space. Since when did we need to be protected by white knights? I can hold my own, thank you, without anyone needing to shield me from what may come my way.

    Next, who decided that we cis women needed a space? "Weka"? A sexless, anonymous entity, who may be gasp a man??

    Lastly, if "Weka" intended to exclude the entire LGBT+ community in a discussion about trans people and non-binaries, then they have succeeded.

    In fact, if you want to know what trans exclusionary feminism looks lok, this is it. Well done, "Weka". You've created a discussion forum straight from Mumsnet or 4Chan which debates the validity of trans women but they cannot, according to your rules, reply?

    What next, a page for cis het men only, no gays, to debate the validity of heterosexuality vs homosexuality??

    This is exclusionary.

    It is reactionary.

    It does nothing to further understanding between those who have an interest in this issue.

    I look forward to the day when we don't debate the validity of an already marginalised group just because, you know, we can.

    Do better please.

    [well “Jane B” if you’re going to be a plonker I’ll treat you as one. Read the site Policy and About so you know what the debate culture here is and where the boundaries are. After that, if you want to join the women’s space and you are female, you will be welcome so long as you can abide by the site rules. Although I’m not sure why you would want to given your disdain for women’s space, but we’re here for the robust debate, I’m sure you’ll get some response to the issues you raise – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Sabine 8.1
      19 July 2021 at 11:35 am

      Who decided that we are 'Cis-women"? Seriously, who did, and why do have i to adhere to this standard?

      Cis-women is more and more becoming an insult, if it not ever was intended to be one.

      I am not a cis anything, i am a biological women, born with the attributes of the 'female' of the human species.

      So please, you too, do better.

      • Shanreagh 8.1.1
        19 July 2021 at 12:16 pm

        Agree Sabine. Obfuscation and confusion by renaming items that are not in need of renaming is evident in this whole debate. It so patently 1984 and Brave New World-esque. Humpty Dumpty said "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

        This cis montrosity has been with us since 2017. I have never seen it used in a caring sharing way only in ways to put bio women down. (A good illustration in the post we are replying to.)

        It is laughable if it were not so serious.

        • SPC 8.1.1.1
          19 July 2021 at 1:42 pm

          It's been around a while longer.

          Obviously it would be as a frame of reference in human differentiation.

          It was not designed to marginalise the majority, female or male, but to provide a framework in which minorities were specifically included.

          It's like a shell game, how many minorities can be identified and included before the majoritarian become intolerant – and at which point is peak tolerance load identified.

        • Gabby 8.1.1.2
          19 July 2021 at 2:00 pm

          Does it not mean 'real'? I'm going to interpret it as meaning 'real' from now on.

          • weka 8.1.1.2.1
            19 July 2021 at 2:46 pm

            Have I got this right? You think cis means real? Are you saying that women are real and trans women aren't?

      • weka 8.1.2
        19 July 2021 at 12:44 pm

        I don't see myself as cis either, and the word is now hugely problematic. I included it in the post as message to people who ID as cis that they're welcome too. Thing is, I fit under the trans umbrella anyway (thanks Stonewall) so "Jane B" is hoisted on her own binary thinking petard there.

        • Sabine 8.1.2.1
          19 July 2021 at 12:55 pm

          Yes, this is one thing that i find so strange, many women that i know have body dysphoria to various extends, and thus might actually fit under the umbrella, but rather then go trans decided to just make peace with the biology that they are born with and i am sure that some men are also fall into that bracket.

          And to believe that 'cis'ers' can't be gay/lesbian. And that to be cis means excluding gay/lesbians.

          I must not understand something.

          • arkie 8.1.2.1.1
            19 July 2021 at 1:00 pm

            Cisgender is about gender identity not sexuality, you are incorrect to say there aren't cis gay, lesbian or bi people, it merely means not trans.

            • Sabine 8.1.2.1.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 1:05 pm

              then we don't need the word CIS at all. Full stop.

              There are Transpeople, and there are people.

              • McFlock …
                19 July 2021 at 1:17 pm

                Transpeople are different to people. Well, that's not exclusionary at all. 🙄

                • Sabine …
                  19 July 2021 at 1:28 pm

                  Well yes, the "TRANS" states it. All others who don't fall under this label are hence 'NOT' Trans but are maybe a whole lot of different things. And thus the label 'cis' becomes an insult rather then anything else.

                  • McFlock …
                    19 July 2021 at 2:57 pm

                    For "transpeople" to count as "people" then some "people" must be "transpeople".

                    But if "There are Transpeople, and there are people", then the implication is that "transpeople" aren't really the same as "people".

                    Transpeople are people, surely. Unless this is some woke slogan, now?

                    In which case if one needs to refer to people who are not transpeople, just saying "people" would fail to do that. hence the use of the "cis" prefix.

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  19 July 2021 at 1:51 pm

                  You'd think one of the first rules of debate is that we all agree on certain definitions.

                  In this debate we really need to agree that 'biological sex' is real and cannot be changed and that that is what is recorded on one's birth certificate.

                  It is not 'assigned', it is observed, and in the vast majority of instances is an accurate description of the biological sex of that child. Sex is recorded as 'male' or 'female' or 'intersex'. Sometimes 'boy' or 'girl' or 'indeterminate'. Mature males and females are called 'men' and 'women'.

                  What the transgender community seems to be demanding is that the definition of 'sex' be permanently and artificially changed so it now means what is commonly understood to be 'gender'…a potentially fluid social construct.

                  By definition, sex and gender are not interchangeable.

                  Baffling indeed that this fundamental definition of a biological term has been changed with absolutely no public debate allowed whatsoever…because "violence" and "exclusion".

                  • SPC …
                    19 July 2021 at 2:14 pm

                    That would be arguing for born biological sex, distinct from sex identity. Not the same as gender ID – for example Camille Paglia, the only out lesbian of her time at Yale Graduate School, now identifies as transgender.

                    There is a case for an ID document separate to a birth certificate to cater to sex and gender ID where this is different to that of the birth certificate (which would suffice for the cisgender).

                  • McFlock …
                    19 July 2021 at 3:04 pm

                    lol I know, right, the lack of public debate is deafening. The minister only sent letters across the spectrum, and social media is constantly sidetracked by the issue, and one or two rounds of submissions on the proposals but there's been zero "public debate". /sarc

                    As for "violence" and "exclusion", we're at the "slapping demonstrators" and "cops dun took our guns cos tweets" stage of it. How much longer will you keep putting quote marks around "violence" and "exclusion"?

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      19 July 2021 at 4:10 pm

                      lol. I know right. " https://terfisaslur.com/ "

                      How about we try a bit of "good faith" and at least discuss/debate the definitions at the centre of this issue.

                      Then we can move on to discussing if it is ok for a small minority of biological males to demand that we talk about "pregnant people" because "pregnant women" is exclusionary.

                      I'll give you a little clue. "Woman", by the traditional definition means "adult human female". Only female humans can be pregnant. So what is exclusionary about "pregnant women"?

                      If we are going to radically change the definitions of fundamental biological words we need a discussion about it, and at least some kind of consensus.

                      And we should really examine the motives of this very queer movement…

                      Queer ideology is a set of beliefs based on Queer Theory. This theory arose in academia, and is concerned with subverting the ‘normative’ and is invested in ‘queering’ the meaning of words and conceptual categories. Queer ideology discounts or denies biological sex, in favour of the primacy of gender identity. Following this line of thinking, same-sex orientation is now considered exclusionary,

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      19 July 2021 at 8:04 pm

                      Queer theory follows a typical Hegelian analysis form. Hegelian dialectic analysis is a pseudo logic (it doesn't form a valid logical argument) but is typical in Critical Theory fields in the analysis of power.

                      A Hegelian dialectic will take some supposed societal oppressive category (a thesis) and contrast it with the oppressed category (the anti-thesis) and supposedly advance discourse by reforming the categories into a synthesis.

                      Now in actual logic your system of logic can not contain any false statements. So much so that a valid logical argument form is proof by contradiction, where you sometimes prove a statement is untrue by assuming its true and then demonstrating that further statements which were true are now false. This is sufficient to show the statement you assumed true must have been false. So you can see why in Hegelian analysis forming a synthesis makes non-sense of facts, and that its a pseudo-logic.

                      The other issue being the dialectic supposedly advances society. While in logic establishing proof of some original fact didn't alter the fact that was always true, it merely demonstrated it is true. But this is the reason Critical Theory feels the need to correct peoples discourse because otherwise no advances are made.

                      I think this highlights why altering the meaning of terms is part of the point the way this creates nonsense discourse is not considered important at all.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 July 2021 at 4:27 pm

                      So what is the purpose of this proposed "debate"? One of us will change the other's mind after the fifteen millionth iteration of the argument? Is the theory that enough repetition will stop language from evolving? What odds for reaching consensus do you give a debate on the mutability (or even the non-binary nature) of sex?

                      And frankly, if you think that all the discussion and written invitations for submissions mean "absolutely no public debate allowed whatsoever", then either Tinetti's office did not send those letters or we don't even share an understanding of the term "good faith".

                    • SPC …
                      19 July 2021 at 4:41 pm

                      And the origin of the term queer was related to indebtedness, a debt inquiry, a debt query and going to debtors prison (and for some how they paid off the debt to avoid going to prison and poor people committing theft of food etc). Related was the incarceration of homosexual men in prisons (and poor women resorting to prostitution and homosexual women being "committed" by fathers and husbands for treatment for being nonconformist).

                      One could make a case for queer theory being revolutionary, to change the world. Which would be the world accepting that someone not born of the female sex could have their birth certificate say they were. There are so many George Orwell quotes …

                      But there is another, one I have very recently invented – It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than it is for any one individual to get the world to conform to their personal life journey, as they live and experience it. For that would require them to rule the world and define truth within it.

                    • SPC …
                      19 July 2021 at 8:35 pm

                      Nic. How about free speech is good and hate speech is bad. If they are both right, what can be done to reconcile divergent truths?

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      19 July 2021 at 9:25 pm

                      There is of course the paradox of tolerance meme, which could be claimed as a synthesis of those claims together.

                      But so were clear I don't think every free expression of speech is necessarily morally good. Nor do I think Hegelian pseudo-logic is a valid logical form. Nor do I think truths are necessarily moral or falsehoods necessarily immoral.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 July 2021 at 9:51 pm

                      Can't say I've overly studied the "Queer Theory" academic field (any wokeness most likely comes from sharing offices with people at the pointy end of trying to stop young queer folk being thumped or killing themselves), but I agree Hegelianism is pants.

          • weka 8.1.2.1.2
            19 July 2021 at 2:37 pm

            I don't have gender or bodydysphoria, it's just that Stonewall et al have broadened the trans definitions so widely now that I fit into the GNC and gender queer categories. I don't think of myself that way particularly, but I don't think of myself as cis either.

        • Forget now 8.1.2.2
          19 July 2021 at 1:03 pm

          Really? You are Trans, Weka? Forgive me, but that sounds like the setup for a joke whose punchline is Stonewall's (UK) definition of trans-ness. Probably from a thread I didn't read.

          Anyway, I have to agree with Jane B that TS has a pretty trans-exclusionary reputation in NZ's rainbow community. In fact, I often get looked at sideways for saying that I engage with the site at all. But I've always thought that it is necessary to consider viewpoints other than your own.

          I didn't read the "Adult human female" thread, so can't really comment on anything there. If I am going to read text on which I am forbidden from commenting, then I have stacks of that already – it seems a bit pointless for a blog.

          • weka 8.1.2.2.1
            19 July 2021 at 2:40 pm

            I don't consider it a joke. If Stonewall and the gender lobbyists are going to socially engineer transness in the general population and I fit into their definition, then I fit into their definition 🤷‍♂️

            If that backlashes on SW, fuck 'em, they should have tried working with women and lesbians in particular instead of trying to control.

            • Shanreagh 8.1.2.2.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 3:34 pm

              Well said Weka the comment was intrusive. humourless and unwarranted. And surprising ……I had not thought it was 'on' here to comment about another's sexuality. . I was a bit surprised it was not moderated out.

              .

              • weka …
                19 July 2021 at 4:54 pm

                which comment?

                • Shanreagh …
                  19 July 2021 at 5:12 pm

                  8.1.2.2 Second sentence.

                  • weka …
                    19 July 2021 at 5:26 pm

                    oh, I don't mind being asked. It's ok to ask as long as there is no pressure and it's not politicised/aggro. I opened the way for that upthread.

                    (trans is a gender ID not a sexuality 👍)

                    I thought you were talking about "Jane B" saying I was sexless or man, which I found really funny from a gender activist.

          • weka 8.1.2.2.2
            19 July 2021 at 2:41 pm

            I appreciate your presence here and your willingness to engage in the conversation. Having been commenting as feminist here for a long time, I don't consider TS to be a particularly safe place for feminists, or trans people, or many groups of people.

        • Sabine 8.1.2.3
          19 July 2021 at 1:11 pm

          I am so happy for the German word 'Mensch'. I am a Mensch. More then my sexual organs for reproduction, more then my identification by gender, more then my own identification by my sexual attractions, but am Mensch. It seems that we forget that in our need to build boxes to neatly arrange things so that we can cope with this world that is becoming very unkind towards Menschen.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.2.4
          19 July 2021 at 1:31 pm

          Either reject being categorised against one's wishes (easy), or work through it.

          Becoming Cisgender [2020]
          However, this was not the main thing: the study was before all an opportunity to form a point of view as a psychologist in the field of gender studies, where I have a certain visibility and cannot afford to make uninformed comments. It is a question of responsibility. It seemed to me that an empirical experience was necessary to shape my own perspective.
          *
          ‟But what trans people need is something else: they need housing, jobs, access to healthcare, they need to feel safe in the public space…” In other words, more so than to be understood in the theoretical games played between the disciplines or currents, trans people need to be respected. And this can open a real discussion. Does understanding lead to respect? Not necessarily, because we ‟understand” with our intellectual filters, which can be pathologising, condescending, etc. Respect is a question of ethics. We either respect a person unconditionally or not at all. However, this lack of respect and the forms of violence it gives rise to, are what trans people truly have in common and which in itself would justify talking about trans identity.
          *
          Refusing Cis-Normativity
          What does it mean, becoming cis? For the first time, a category is imposed, imposes itself on the political checkboard of gender identities, by a discriminated population that invents it from scratch to designate those that discriminate it. It is possible not to recognize oneself in this category and refuse using it; however, this immediately designates a looking-down-upon or a cis-normative position. On the other hand, becoming cis means taking the other’s speech seriously. We recognize ourselves in the interpellation (in the Althusserian sense) coming from the trans community; we credit the other with a certain knowledge and a social and political efficacy that represents a form of authority, one that can summon us. This should be duly noted.

          [link fixed]

          • Shanreagh 8.1.2.4.1
            19 July 2021 at 1:47 pm

            Is this a quote from somewhere? If so link please. Thanks.

            As an early adopter of Ms then more than happy with forename surname forms of address, I have and will continue to look at the ciswoman.

            At first glance and several other glances it has always struck me as an attempt to 'other' and in the long history of woman & politics and life yet more instances or opportunities of othering is the last thing women need.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.2.4.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 1:54 pm

              Apologies Shanreagh, I botched embedding the link to Molinier’s paper "Becoming Cisgender" – hopefully this one works.

              Pascale Molinier is professor of social psychology at Université Sorbonne Paris Nord and director of Les cahiers du genre. Her research themes are gendered division of labour, relationship between mental health and work, care ethics, feminist epistemology.

              Re ‘othering‘, perhaps ‘cis‘ is an attempt by some in the trans community to allow us ‘normies’ to reflect on how it might feel to be ‘othered’? Just guessing.

              • weka …
                19 July 2021 at 2:44 pm

                You might be a normie, but a hell of a lot of GCFs, women, and lesbians aren't. You think we don't know how it might feel to be 'othered'? Why do you think that?

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  19 July 2021 at 3:00 pm

                  I feel like a 'normie', even though (very) few might see me as such.

                  Weka, I wouldn't presume to suggest that you, or indeed any stranger, doesn't know how it might feel to be 'othered'. If you believe that's what I'm suggesting, then we can respectfully agree to disagree – this shouldn’t become personal, imho.

                  Fwiw, I read Molinier's paper for the first time today, and found it both compelling and transformative.

                  My respect and understanding is evolving. I believe I learn new things everyday (and try to integrate them into my worldview), but then I am becoming rather forgetful. Kia kaha.

          • Gabby 8.1.2.4.2
            19 July 2021 at 2:04 pm

            We either respect a person unconditionally or not at all?

            Well that's not true.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.2.4.2.1
              19 July 2021 at 2:09 pm

              Might be an opinion/belief, and/or not universally applicable? Imho, of course.

      • arkie 8.1.3
        19 July 2021 at 12:45 pm

        The word cisgender is the antonym of transgender. The prefix cis- is not an acronym or abbreviation of another word; it is derived from Latin meaning on this side of, and the word cissexual was invented in the 1990s from the German zissexuell.

        …

        Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning 'on this side of', which is the opposite of trans-, meaning 'across from' or 'on the other side of'. This usage can be seen in the cis–trans distinction in chemistry, the cis and trans sides of the Golgi apparatus in cellular biology, the cis–trans or complementation test in genetics, in Ciscaucasia (from the Russian perspective), in the ancient Roman term Cisalpine Gaul (i.e., 'Gaul on this side of the Alps'), Ciskei and Transkei (separated by the Kei River), and more recently, Cisjordan, as distinguished from Transjordan. In the case of gender, cis- describes the alignment of gender identity with assigned sex.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

        • Sabine 8.1.3.1
          19 July 2021 at 12:51 pm

          Personally i identify as WitchBitch, pronouns this and that. 🙂 s/

          If a person does not call herself or himself as 'cis' no one should. Either we are cool with self identifying ourselves as what ever we want or we are not.

          • AB 8.1.3.1.1
            19 July 2021 at 4:29 pm

            Agreed. However I'm weird, because I don't identify as anything. Probably others identify me as something, but I don't give a fig what it is. I quite like TS Eliot's maxim – "the progress of an artist is a continual self-sacrifice, a continual extinction of personality". Or better still Keats' insistence on the loss of self in the moment "…if a sparrow come before my window I take part in its existence and pick about the gravel." We live in strange times that the self should matter so much.

        • Shanreagh 8.1.3.2
          19 July 2021 at 1:15 pm

          Thanks Arkie for the explanation.

          I often read the cis-woman combo word in the company of words like Terf, transphobic or bigot. .

          Why would that be?

          Cis seems to be in use as a rather derogatory term (as many woman related phrases are) and here I salute Sabine's WitchBitch). and I would rather not use a label like ‘cis’ anything.

          What is being done, do you know, to counter the use of the combo word cis-woman in a pejorative sense?

          • arkie 8.1.3.2.1
            19 July 2021 at 1:45 pm

            Cis isn't derogatory or a pejorative though, it is an adjective used to add meaning just like trans is. Definitionally 'Witch/Bitch' certainly is derogatory and a pejorative. You seem comfortable with that, why is that?

            • Shanreagh 8.1.3.2.1.1
              19 July 2021 at 2:21 pm

              Witch bitch is a call out to the angel/bitch dichotomy that woman face everyday. It is also a recognition of the fact that women with different ideas to the patriarchy in times gone past were often labelled, then lost their lives, because they were felt to be witches*.

              It is an example self deprecating female humour, We need humour, it opens doors sometimes. For this reason if I had a choice on an official form between cis-anything and witch bitch I would probably chose 'witchbitch'. For the laugh, for the recognition of the place that witches have played in the history of women……

              Also in recognition that older women of any sexual leaning are not 'seen' in our current world. They never have been. While it gives us freedom to operate outside the edges of society it is irritating as well We have ageist propaganda used against us, if people can get away with it they 'Karen' us.

              Cis is so ugly. I see it often lumped in with Terf etc. So I am suspicious.

              *And why this should be is is the stuff of Women's Studies and has a foundation in the hidden nature of the female sexual response together with the impact of wise words that older woman, in every society I have been in, often irritatingly have to say in mixed company.

              Witchbitch harks back, it's tongue in cheek…….I love it. Showing my age now but it makes me think of the old Helen Reddy song that was a stalwart for some back in the day 'I am woman'

              If you have not heard of it here is the song……changing it to put cis-woman does not work does it? Yet it is relevant and much more powerful because the word is not it chopped up in tiny othering pieces…It speaks to women no matter how we want to define ourselves/what we look like.

              2013 version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAo8k0Fq1OM

              1975 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fHTyVmYp4

              Perhaps women could sing:

              You can cis but never break me
              'Cause it only serves to make me
              More determined to achieve my final goal
              And I come back even stronger
              Not a novice any longer
              'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

              • arkie …
                19 July 2021 at 2:26 pm

                We can’t decry the ‘hollowing out’ of terms and definitions if we are also going disregard or create new meanings for other words, based on a perceived ‘ugliness’ or unfamiliarity.

                • Shanreagh …
                  19 July 2021 at 3:11 pm

                  I haven't hollowed out any words. I do not see the need for tiny little chopped up words to describe biology. I am not keen in Cis because

                  a) it is not necessary ……main point

                  b) it is an example of 'othering' that we do not need second main point.

                  c) it is so b…. ugly……also concerning

                  Indeed I supported a poster on the Womens' Day thread who stated

                  We do not need to empty the terms woman and female of meaning in order to protect trans rights

                  Back in the day Ms was thought to be ugly. We realised that it had a great use to anonymise the marital status of women, something men had been able to do for aeons. We recognised therefore that it was pro-women.

                  I have yet to be convinced that my status as a cis-woman is pro women at all. In fact the point is I have more often seen it sharing it paragraphs with words like 'Terfs', 'oldies', 'bigots' and 'transphobic'.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    19 July 2021 at 3:20 pm

                    Can you put your finger on why you consider 'cis' to be ugly and/or concerning? Is 'cis' intrinsically ugly, or ugly only in a cisgender context?

                    As an aside, are terms such as 'trans' and/or 'transgender' similarly less than beautiful in your view? Just trying to learn/understand.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      19 July 2021 at 4:32 pm

                      It is ugly:

                      because I was not consulted about whether I wanted to be labelled this way. It has been foisted on me and others

                      it is a label inserted where no label was needed. All that is needed are a few extra words to describe the category, if one is needed.

                      it signifies division and 'othering' Women as a group do not need any more othering and made-up names unless we self select them.

                      it keeps bad company with Terf, transphobic and bigot also oldie

                      it does not seem to be a step on the path of enhancing the lot of women, in the widest sense, in society.

                      it has no back story, pedigree or 'aha' moment that would make it relevant for women – it has come from nowhere that I recognise

                      Having had friends from the 1970s who identified themselves as 'Trannies' more along the lines of drag queens and Carmen & workmates I am familiar with the prefix 'trans'. The prefix trans "across, over, or beyond."is used far more in day to day life.

                      Again there was a mine of self deprecating humour behind the adoption of the term Trannies by my friends. I'm smiling to myself just thinking about them and their sayings. One of them had a 9-5 job as a male (dressing etc) in a Govt dept.

                      Anyway……that's it from me on the use of 'cis' . Female/woman suits me. You could add; for reasons where this was necessary, like enrolment for health care; 'female with hetero orientation'.

              • Shanreagh …
                19 July 2021 at 2:54 pm

                Sorry the phrase/dichotomy is 'Madonna/whore'.

            • SPC 8.1.3.2.1.2
              19 July 2021 at 2:35 pm

              It's like reclaiming the word queer.

              The patriarchy and outlier males were dogs and females were witches – thus the term bitch.

            • weka 8.1.3.2.1.3
              19 July 2021 at 2:49 pm

              Cis isn't derogatory or a pejorative though, it is an adjective used to add meaning just like trans is. Definitionally 'Witch/Bitch' certainly is derogatory and a pejorative. You seem comfortable with that, why is that?

              Witch/bitch here was self ID. In the same way that black people have reclaimed the word nigger, and homosexuals have reclaimed queer. Context determines if something is derogatory or a pejorative.

              Cis is a term applied by one group to another whether the other group wants that or not. That's bullshit. And it’s fast becoming a pejorative.

              • arkie …
                19 July 2021 at 3:03 pm

                So Self-ID is fine then?

                • weka …
                  19 July 2021 at 3:09 pm

                  if it's about self, sure. I know very few people that politically object to other people's self expression. Gender self-ID is a different thing where it impacts on women politically and socially as a class, and where GAs actively suppress women being able to talk about that. Can you see the difference?

                  • Shanreagh …
                    19 July 2021 at 3:25 pm

                    I am wondering if rather than hollowing out/emptying the words man/woman or male/female we leave them and then say

                    male includes but is not limited to…….

                    female includes but is not limited to

                    intersex includes but is not limited to

                    unspecified X includes but is not limited to

                    Different people have different needs and the medical surgical needs of any of our rainbows could be catered for by greater specificity where it matters ie in day to day life access to healthcare. housing education. So any health plans that came up to MOH would need to show that the agency recognised and was catering for everybody.

                  • arkie …
                    19 July 2021 at 3:30 pm

                    Self-ID is definitionally about the self, but it is good to know we don’t object to that then.

                    And yet Gender self-ID is different?

                    I guess I fail to see how we can not object to other peoples self expression while at the same time considering gender self-ID to be something other than someone else’s self expression.

                    • Sabine …
                      19 July 2021 at 3:36 pm

                      I have left a comment at the very bottom of the women thread in regards to the self ID bill. Please read it – it might at the very least makes my stance to it clearer.

                      For the record i have hired worked with and have until she moved to a different town for her studies a transgender women. She came recommended as a good pastry chef / baker and i came recommended as a 'welcoming' workplace of people who don't fit in neat boxes. My workplace was her first step at 'social' transitioning.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      19 July 2021 at 4:39 pm

                      Yet where has this cis come from if we are able or not to use it to describe ourselves?

                      If it was only used as a self ID, fine, but imposed 'nah'.

                      By using it in a context to differentiate, cis, is being imposed ie it has moved drastically from being self ID to being a way of 'othering'.

                    • weka …
                      19 July 2021 at 5:01 pm

                      I guess I fail to see how we can not object to other peoples self expression while at the same time considering gender self-ID to be something other than someone else’s self expression.

                      I thought I already explained that. Society should be free enough so that people can express themselves how they want. Men can wear dresses, women can look like men, gay pride, vanilla sex, whatever. There are some limits on this (eg I think prohibitions on public nudity are good for society, I don't think Pride marches should had dog fetishists or nappy festishists hanging out with kids while in role)

                      Gender-self ID where it intends to suppress other people's needs and politics and expressions is a different thing. If we are talking about legislation that will impact on women and women are being pressured to not talk about it or have say, then that's a really different thing than self expression. I want women (ie biologically female) only space, and if some people in society want to change that, then as a woman I want a full and open debate on what is fair. We haven't had that yet.

                    • weka …
                      19 July 2021 at 5:02 pm

                      changing legislation to remove single sex exemptions in equality law isn't self expression. It's major politics.

                    • arkie …
                      19 July 2021 at 6:07 pm

                      @weka

                      Society should be free enough so that people can express themselves how they want. Men can wear dresses, women can look like men, gay pride, vanilla sex, whatever.

                      So to clarify: this ‘whatever’ allows trans people to express themselves how they want?

                      Gender-self ID where it intends to suppress other people’s needs and politics and expressions is a different thing

                      This is where you lose me, how does gender-self ID intend to supress etc. etc.? It allows people to express themselves how they want.

                      I want women (ie biologically female) only space, and if some people in society want to change that

                      What is this space you want? Where is it? If it’s a space meant for all the public then that seems unrealistic.

                      I want a full and open debate on what is fair. We haven’t had that yet.

                      I dispute that we haven’t had the ‘debate’, what we have is an impasse. However, what does a full and open debate look like, and what do you think is the fair outcome/answer to the debate?

                    • SPC …
                      19 July 2021 at 6:38 pm

                      Arkie, for mine the separation is between birth certificate status and subsequent status/identification.

                      I have no problem with an identity certificate saying a person has the legal name Samantha, a female sex identity and their date of birth (but their birth certificate says they were born male sex and they were named Sam). I would add the option of adding gender ID and name known by to this identity certificate. And this identity certificate can be used for getting a drivers licence or passport.

                      Such an identity certificate could also be used by cisgender people to add a gender ID and provide greater information to employers and community/club groups than the birth certificate does.

            • Sabine 8.1.3.2.1.4
              19 July 2021 at 3:28 pm

              did you see the s/ ? sarcasm.

              I have never stated anything other on this blog then my 'sex' female, and my female name Sabine.

              Anything else I personally consider no-one elses business.

              But if you need to know, my stepfather called me 'bitch' my mother called me 'witch'. Patriachy or something.

    • Shanreagh 8.2
      19 July 2021 at 12:04 pm

      It would be great, while you are here, if you could go through the posts and answer the questions that many have asked.

      That would be a great use if time rather than slinging off at others who may be your supporters but do not (yet) have the answers to their questions or concerns.

      There are too many queries to list here but if you scroll down through the posts .and answer them in a factual unemotive way …..

      Cheers smiley

    • SPC 8.3
      19 July 2021 at 1:18 pm

      A man with a conviction is a hard man to change.

      https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/04/denial-science-chris-mooney/

      Once you learn about this mental habit – called confirmation bias – you start seeing it everywhere.

      https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170131-why-wont-some-people-listen-to-reason

      I both agree and disagree with your argument.

      But for those who disagree, their choice is to provide and or utilise a womans space.

      It's a bit like the control of the body thing, personal choice. Beyond that is freedom of association. Then beyond that the right to be free from discrimination.

      PS. Two cisgender females questioning each others ID as women is taking “debate” too far.

    • Jimmy 8.4
      19 July 2021 at 2:09 pm

      This is a very interesting conversation for someone that had to google "cis" (and amusing if you don't mind me saying).

    • greywarshark 8.5
      19 July 2021 at 4:06 pm

      There is a special column open for women and other entities for their particular assertions so why is Open Mike flooded with input on identity politics?

      Do a large number of such people want to take over NZ/the western world and impose their authoritarian views upon it?

      • SPC 8.5.1
        19 July 2021 at 4:20 pm

        Um … this was moved from that womans space to open mike (presumably because of the questioning of the need for there to be a separate place for this debate).

  9. pat 9
    19 July 2021 at 12:00 pm

    Thought experiment

    How would you react to someone who had killed one of your children?

    • Prickles 9.1
      19 July 2021 at 12:07 pm

      I'm struggling enough with the thought that Boris is trying his best to do exactly that with his "Freedom Day". I don't even want to go near contemplating what the consequences of his arrogance and stupidity may actually mean.

      I just keep reinforcing to her to stay home. Fortunately she doesn't need much convincing.

      • Sabine 9.1.1
        19 July 2021 at 12:30 pm

        Someone said on a different blog, that covid like with climate change, the ones who make rules know that it is real, but they expect themselves to survive and if half of the rest of the world dies then that can only be good.

        Friends in the US and in England have stated that even while vaccinated they will continue to wear masks, keep social distance and still limit their outings in many ways.

        So the best that one can do is hope that people will take this seriously, and try themselves to be safe, advice from their governments be damned.

    • mac1 9.2
      19 July 2021 at 12:07 pm

      Under what circumstances did the act occur and to what circumstances am I reacting?

  10. Forget now 10
    19 July 2021 at 12:44 pm

    This is pathetic!

    The Auckland based Immunisation Advisory Centre, appears to have such a monopolistic contract with the MoH that university's are unable to train their own students as vaccinators during a Pandemic. What?

    "We have been trying for so long and every so often I get to the point where I think, ‘Oh just leave it’ but then I think of all the good that all our vaccinators could be doing and think that perhaps I shouldn’t give up."

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/campus/vaccinator-plan-hit-stalemate

  11. Dennis Frank 11
    19 July 2021 at 1:48 pm

    Trotter reports the result of a recent Curia poll on the hate speech law proposal: http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/

    There's "a clear plurality of New Zealanders either strongly or somewhat oppose the Government’s proposals – 43 percent in total. But, the number of eligible voters who somewhat or strongly support the proposed measures, at 31 percent, represents an extremely solid minority. With 15 percent of voters currently taking a “neutral” stance, the Prime Minister still has everything to play for."

    So the undecided hold the key – no surprise. What comes out of the submissions process will be crucial, and I'm expecting that the bill which eventually goes to select committee will be quite conservative and woke idealists will become disillusioned.

    Trotter illuminates the multitude of ways that the proposal is divisive, supplying the stats on those resulting divisions. They will spook Labour moderates big-time…

    • Incognito 11.1
      19 July 2021 at 6:06 pm

      So the undecided hold the key – no surprise. What comes out of the submissions process will be crucial, and I’m expecting that the bill which eventually goes to select committee will be quite conservative and woke idealists will become disillusioned.

      Why do you conflate an opinion poll and submissions to SC? Do you believe that bills are decided in some kind of popularity contests in/by SC and ‘decided by undecided’, i.e. a simple count of for & against submissions? In the end, the whole Parliament gets to debate and then vote on the bill, not the SC.

      In any case, a poll is just a snapshot and I’d like to think that there could be considerable movement in those opinions, e.g., support becomes undecided, et cetera.

      • Dennis Frank 11.1.1
        19 July 2021 at 8:00 pm

        I agree re snapshot & movement & dunno why you see me conflating the poll & sc. What I meant re the undecided is that the public mood will firm up pro & con when the govt produces the bill to go to select committee & the media reports the details.

        That's what usually happens, eh? The govt is seeking submissions in order to finalise their design of the bill, right? So the interim proposal seems nebulous to many & they wait to make up their mind on the government's reading of the public mood and the subsequent (re) design – which will then head into the sc. If you think the process works differently than that I hope you will explain precisely how (I've never been party to the process so can't testify from personal experience).

        • Incognito 11.1.1.1
          20 July 2021 at 6:39 pm

          Dunno why you reply with such binary waffle straight out of PDF’s spin manual.

          The way the process works is that Government takes professional and expert advice from wide range of sources as well as feedback provided through the submission process to SC. Maybe you need to re-read the piece in the NZH by Russell Palmer that you linked to in OM this morning, yes?

          You do realise that making law is not a popularity contest but for the benefit of all New Zealanders and the whole NZ society, yes?

          So the undecided hold the key – no surprise.

          Yeah, nah.

  12. lprent 12
    19 July 2021 at 2:20 pm

    Finally just getting time to look at the comment editor again. I 'fixed' it on the 11th, and did a bit of fiddling sometime last week. I was a bit sick over the last two weeks so I'm unsure exactly where I left it.

    I was getting my rental apartment ready for new tenants over this last weekend. My extremely valued previous tenants got a bigger place for their new cat, and started accumulating their own furniture. But I'll try to have a look at it this week.

    I see that I lost the edges of the edit box.

    There is a known issue with the Cancel edit button.

    Anything else that I should look at (I'll scan through the previous comments as well).

  13. Morrissey 13
    19 July 2021 at 2:34 pm

    Fake news, as per usual, on Murdoch's infamous Fox News

    Those Cuban "street protests" were not what Fox News would have its mouth-breathing viewers believe.

    https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1416713677378629636

  14. KSaysHi 14
    19 July 2021 at 3:25 pm

    Third time trying to post in the right place (keeps taking me back to where I started to comment but decided not to after reloading the page). Apologies if this has caused any issues.

    Sounds like it was inevitable someone stuck overseas would get this in front of the Ombudsman.

    Read yesterday of a lovely lady who has had surgery to have mesh inserted, and now is stuck in the US in pain and without the ability to pay for treatment or book in our MIQ system.

    This isn’t about her, but a tech dude stuck in Singapore and unable to book without bot help.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/tech-industry-figure-stuck-in-singapore-takes-unusable-miq-booking-system-to-ombudsman/VNFJGTO4MJ5R75BR6GCCMNTU2E/

    Sean Gourley, a Canterbury University Physics and Complex Systems PhD who went on to become a NASA research scientist before founding an AI startup, divides his time between the US and NZ, and told Brewer's experience was typical. Gourley's logs showed bookings "happening in under 750 milliseconds [three-quarters of a second] which is faster than a human can navigate this UX [user-interface].

    • McFlock 14.1
      19 July 2021 at 3:40 pm

      Maybe some sort of STV+lottery process would be better – every day opens a new bunch of slots, you apply in order of preference, then at the end of the day they divvy up the slots randomly? With a certain allocation for priority/humanitarian entry?

      I dunno.

  15. Forget now 15
    19 July 2021 at 4:54 pm

    Stonewall are over in the UK, I don't know how they define gender, Weka. From an Aotearoan perspective, I would argue that; the National Council of Women are better placed for any NZ woman to interact with if they are wanting to affect NZ law.

    I particularly like this diagram of theirs. With the whole debate being but a tiny aspect of many social interactions within the overarching issue of climate change. If we don't get that right, then I doesn't really matter who does what where.

    https://www.ncwnz.org.nz/what

    That was supposed to go upthread somewhere in response to comment 8.1(.2.something…). Still on that learning curve.

    [image resized and posted below – weka]

  16. Sacha 16
    19 July 2021 at 5:25 pm

    Reading above I'm reminded of the reaction of some white New Zealanders to the word Pakeha being used to describe us. Privilege dies hard.

    • Sabine 16.1
      19 July 2021 at 5:43 pm

      Are you a male or a female? just asking on behalf of privilege 🙂

    • SPC 16.2
      19 July 2021 at 6:24 pm

      Sure some of the reaction to the term "cisgender" comes because of a disagreement with those who use the categorisation – just as resistance to "Pakeha identity" comes from those of the assimilationist or integration, rather than bi-national identity and recognition of indigenous peoples status.

      But what's influencing my current perspective is the value of the female sex birth status to those who do not conform to feminine stereotype in physique or social aspect. If we allow people to change their birth sex status this can have unintended consequences for this group.

      • Sacha 16.2.1
        20 July 2021 at 11:16 am

        Resistance to Pakeha from white folk includes it being a name they did not create for themselves. So much so that Stats NZ stopped using it after a massive backlash.

        • SPC 16.2.1.1
          20 July 2021 at 11:21 am

          The same people who stuffed up the last census …

          I would have had New Zealand European/Pakeha as a category – it's all very New Zealand English/Aotearoa Maori affirmative.

          And they will probably end up there … He Puapua etc

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  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
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