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Open Mike 19/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 19th, 2018 - 186 comments
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186 comments on “Open Mike 19/08/2018 ”

  1. Jenny 1

    Some big issues are going to be thrashed out at the Green Party conference.

    Should MPs have the right to dissent from the party line without being thrown out of parliament?

    Should Party caucus’s have the right to over rule the membership?

    The battle lines are being drawn between those who want to give power to the executives to ignore their membership, and give power to the executives to expel dissenting MPs. And between those who want to protect the right of the membership and parliamentary dissenters to be heard.

    Free speech is a topical hot potato out in society, but also inside parliament, and also, inside the Green Party.

    Yesterday Pete George related a quote from Nandor Tanczos;

    Pete George1

    18 August 2018 at 7:03 am

    “Freedom of expression is often one of the first victims of a successful socialist revolution”.

    Like PG I think it is noteworthy that Tanczos has made this comment in the current political environment. It has not come out of a vacuum.

    Tanczos comment was made against a background of debate inside the Green Party, over caucus over ruling the membership.

    And especially as the Green Party’s caucus’s decision to back the NZ First’s Waka Jumping Bill, which is also an infringement of free speech in parliament, because it gives party executives the right to over rule MPs right to free speech under threat of expulsion from parliament.

    Most Green Party members, (And apparently, at least three leading Green Party ex-MPs), believe that these two things, are an attack on parliamentary and party democracy.

    And they are right.

    But I would go further than this, and argue that both these two things put together actually spell the end of the Green Party, at least as far as being a  parliamentary force, by limiting the Green Party’s ability to lobby and influence other MPs to support the issues that they hold dear.

    (Principally the protection of the biosphere from the multiple assaults from the corporate polluters, whose well funded lobbyists have the ear of the bigger parties.)

    I don’t think it goes too far, to say that these two changes will see the Green Party caucus captured by the bigger parties. And the end of any minority dissenting political voice in parliament.

    I would go even further to suggest that these two changes will accelerate the traditional process of smaller parties becoming shaded out and marginalised by the bigger more conservative parties in parliament. A process which eventually leads to voter collapse for the smaller party.

    Waka Jumping: Former MPs hope Greens conference will make party pull support
    HENRY COOKE – @stuff.co.nz, August 18, 2018


    • Ad 1.1

      They should stop debating this meaningless process crap and start really celebrating their significant successes within this government. Shaw did a useful job of it yesterday. Shaw and Sage have been the people delivering actual policy results. The Greens will do better than 5% if they do a better job of showing how effective they are.

      • SaveNZ 1.1.1

        For once I agree with you Ad about the “meaningless crap” Waka bill. Yes “technically” it might curb individual rights but when looked at the practical reality, without the Waka jumping bill it was used in more destructive ways to reduce democracy and bribe or manipulate the electoral process and balance of power. We have plenty of examples!

        Hopefully the significant successes are still to come, but the Greens are in government which should be celebrated and hopefully they and Labour and NZ First can work together to make a much greater positive environmental impact as well as start reversing the effects of devastating Natz social and environmental policy over the past decade.

      • Jenny 1.1.2

        Hi Ad,
        I know for a fact that some New Zealand First MPs are drawn to some Green Party positions on the environment. And at least a couple have some quite progressive views, especially around climate change.

        The Waka Jumping Bill clearly targets the Greens. The Waka Jumping Bill will act to curb any influence the Greens may have on other MPs in parliament, who may harbour some sympathy for their views. Under threat of dismissal by their executives, no NZ First or Labour MP will want to take up a position that supports a Green position against their Party’s position.

        “The Greens will do better than 5% if they do a better job of showing how effective they are.”


        But even you Ad, must realise that the Green Party’s ability to be effective in swaying parliament from a minority position will be harmed by the Waka Jumping Bill.

        Any MPs from any of the other parties who might be convinced of supporting a Green Party bill, on any issue that their executive disagrees with, can now be disciplined or threatened by that executive if they don’t fall into line.

        And as history has proved, a minor Party that cannot get any wins on the board will be seen as ineffective and a wasted vote even by their own supporters.

        If this bill is used to its full extent against the Green Party by the other governing parties, I can see the Green’s effectiveness in influencing parliament being severely curtailed.

        If, as you maintain Ad, the Green Party’s electoral success is going to be measured by how “effective they are” then by this measure their vote must go down, not up.

        • Ad

          NZF and Labour are the only parties with major defections. Not Greens.

          Labour went through 6 years debating member V MP “rights” and it was electoral disaster. Learn our lessons.

          If all they are going to do is debate process, they will be equated as disunited. Exactly as Hooten predicted last week.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Under threat of dismissal by their executives, no NZ First or Labour MP will want to take up a position that supports a Green position against their Party’s position.

          They’re actually there to support their party’s position – not their position.

          But even you Ad, must realise that the Green Party’s ability to be effective in swaying parliament from a minority position will be harmed by the Waka Jumping Bill.

          No it won’t.

          Any MPs from any of the other parties who might be convinced of supporting a Green Party bill, on any issue that their executive disagrees with, can now be disciplined or threatened by that executive if they don’t fall into line.


          The support will happen in the background. The Green Executive is supporting the Waka Jumping bill because they’ve got wins elsewhere from NZ1st.

          And as history has proved, a minor Party that cannot get any wins on the board will be seen as ineffective and a wasted vote even by their own supporters.

          The Green Party is getting ‘wins’ all over the freaking show and they’re not being quiet about it so why do you think that they’re not getting anywhere? Too busy consulting with your navel?

          If this bill is used to its full extent against the Green Party by the other governing parties

          I’m pretty sure that that can’t happen.

          If, as you maintain Ad, the Green Party’s electoral success is going to be measured by how “effective they are” then by this measure their vote must go down, not up.

          Which is you talking out your arse.

          The Greens have got wins from this. Wins that they wouldn’t have got if they’d not supported it through.

          And remember, the majority of people support this legislation and so the Greens are more likely to get even more support from the populace because their support of it.

        • rightly or wrongly

          In relation to that, how would it apply to the Green party with 2 co-leaders?

          Say a situation arose whereby both co-leaders wern’t happy with each other and sought a 2/3 caucus majority to expel each other from Parliament – what then?

          This law makes the taking of political vengeance out of the voters hands and places it in the hands of any errant dictator who holds the leadership of a party.

          It really is the ‘World according to Winston’ and it is sad that the long principled Green party is aiding and abetting this legislative paranoia.

          From now on, if you aspire to be an MP, you must do so under the duress that you are accountable to voters once every three years but beholden to your party leader every day of every year.

          Its government but it ain’t democracy.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3


      • Ed 1.1.4


    • bwaghorn 1.2

      List mps have to get the arse from parliament if they leave the party
      Electorate mps get to stay .
      It us that simple .

      • Jenny 1.2.1

        Hi Waghorn,

        I would argue that even list MPs have been put in their positions by a democratic process, and should only be removed by a democratic process, and not by fiat from the executive.

        That the democratic process that list MPs are chosen on, is an internal party one, makes it no less a democratic process.

        And that in fact they do have a mandate that they represent through that process.

        A list MP, (even just by the very nature of their method of selection), who may be more in-touch with the feelings of the grass roots party membership. When it comes to a difference, or dispute between Party and caucus, might feel moved to defy the executive and stand with the membership. In that situation, for this to be grounds for the executive to dismiss that MP from parliament would clearly be undemocratic.

        If the executive or caucus really do have an issue with a list MP then they should only be allowed to put it back to the membership for a decision on whether or not that MP be sacked from parliament.

        • Sanctuary

          whatever you think of the waka jumping bill, Shaw and co are in the business of government, while Jeanette Fitzsimons and Sue Bradford are in the business of giving virtuoso performances as to why they were not.

          • The Chairman

            “Shaw and co are in the business of government…”

            Largely due the earlier party building groundwork laid by people like Fitzsimons and Bradford.

            And if Shaw and co want to stay in the business of government, they must remember they have to keep the wider party on board.

        • bwaghorn

          You are right . Big but . Imagine if labour and nzf were only one seat ahead of nact. How easy would it be for the nats to destabilise and even pull down the gov . The same goes for a rogue list mp(I’m not forgetting the greens this is just a scenario)
          For the good of mmp waka jumping or dismissed list mps must leave parliament if they quit or are fired from their party .

          • Jenny

            “Imagine if labour and nzf were only one seat ahead of nact. How easy would it be for the nats to destabilise and even pull down the gov .”

            Hi Waghorn.

            Jeanette Fitzsimmons argues against your premise, because she feels that the Labour and New Zealand MPs would back away from this bill, and wouldn’t take the risk of crashing the government. And that if the Green Party Caucus refused to be intimidated by NZ First and Labour, and instead mustered the courage to call their bluff, they would not take the risk of crashing the government by pushing this bill through against Green Party opposition.

            “The opposition to the party hopping bill now is because it’s wrong. It’s because it denies MPs basic freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of thought – it’s contrary to the bill of rights and to our policy.”

            Fitzsimons doesn’t believe the Government would fall apart if the Greens pulled their support for the bill.

            “I simply don’t buy the line that Jacinda [Ardern] and [Winston] Peters would say ‘oh we don’t want to be Government any more so let’s let it all collapse because we didn’t get this bill through.’ I mean really?”


            • solkta

              But it’s not just about crashing the gummint is it? NZF have supported a lot of environmental stuff that they can’t be happy with and there will be more. A dysfunctional government would be just as disastrous.

              • Jenny

                “NZF have supported a lot of environmental stuff that they can’t be happy with and there will be more.”

                And none more “unhappy”, than climate change denier and fossil fuel fan boy, Shane Jones.

                But, I think Solkta that you are wrong, “there will be more”. This bill will help ensure there isn’t.

                Which will bring a smile back to Shane’s face.

                • solkta

                  You don’t think there will be any more environmental policy this term? How will the Greens supporting this bill mean they won’t achieve anything more? You make no sense.

                  • Jenny

                    Makes perfect sense.
                    The Waka Jumping Bill makes no sense except as a means to keep the Greens in line.
                    Being the smallest partner in a three Party coalition, the Green Party can only get policy through with the support of other progressive or sympathetic MPs outside of their party.

                    Well that ain’t gonna happen now that their executives can threaten to chuck them out, if they dare depart from the party line to support a Green Party policy, either in Committee, or on the Floor of the House.

                    Meaning of course, that for the most part no Green Party policy will ever see the light of day.

                    And the Greens will disappear into irrelevancy, becoming little more than a dead end appendix attached to the side of the mainstream legislative digestive system. Maybe getting a little inflamed now and then, resulting in a little bit of heartburn. But on the whole manageable, and longer term on the waiting list for an appointment to be prepped to be completely excised, come 2020.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Jeanette Fitzsimmons argues against your premise, because she feels that the Labour and New Zealand MPs would back away from this bill, and wouldn’t take the risk of crashing the government. And that if the Green Party Caucus refused to be intimidated by NZ First and Labour, and instead mustered the courage to call their bluff, they would not take the risk of crashing the government by pushing this bill through against Green Party opposition.

              That is not a valid position.

              This isn’t the Greens giving in and getting nothing for it. They’ve got wins elsewhere for their support. NZ1st get this win, Greens get a win elsewhere and we end up with a functioning government rather than one that can’t do anything.

              • The Chairman

                “This isn’t the Greens giving in and getting nothing for it. They’ve got wins elsewhere for their support.”

                Can you show me where the Greens have stated that?

                And if that is the case, why did they lie and say their hands were tied?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Internal emails.

                  They didn’t lie.

                  • The Chairman

                    First they stated they inadvertently accepted it in their agreement with Labour. So I don’t see NZF unnecessarily giving anything up.

                    Then they stated their hands were tied as they were bound by their agreement. Which turned out to be a lie. Now you are claiming they said they secured wins, which seems to me to be another lie.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      The Chairman, who pretends to support The Greens and wish them well, repeats his claim that “The Greens lied”, over and over.
                      The Greens.

                    • McFlock

                      Calls something a “reported fact”. Links to an opinion piece.

                      Does the coalition agreement explicitly state they have to vote for it? No.

                      Does “good faith” imply that if the other party in an agreement wants a particular thing very strongly, and you only oppose it moderately, that in “good faith” you might concede that point to preserve the relationship? In some circumstances, it can.

                    • The Chairman

                      I was referring to the fact within – i.e. the advice given to the Greens from the Cabinet Office.

                      Which states good faith is a political statement around how the Greens endeavour to work with the Government. It commits them to work through areas of concern in good faith, but does not bind them to support everything set out in the Labour/New Zealand First coalition agreement.

                      Therefore, when the Greens told us they were bound by the agreement, they lied.

                      And while cheerleaders like Robert are happy to accept them lying, a number of us aren’t.

            • dukeofurl

              Not collapse the government. That’s right. Greens have signed an agreement that says negioate in good faith. Refusing to negotiate is the exact opposite of good faith.
              The reality is the signed agreement is there. Sure life wout continue but just one NZF mp jumps the Waka and greens would never be in government again. Do they really want to start the first year in a government showing exactly why they were locked out during the 2000s.

              • greywarshark

                This business about whether a politican lied or not. If a politician said they never lied then you would know that was a lie. Making a big deal about one changing their mind or finding that it wasn’t politic to continue is not a big problem unless someone deeply supercilious, great word, decides it is and makes a ‘federal case’ out of it.

                • The Chairman

                  The Greens lied to their supporters to help them sallow what many deemed to be a dead rat.

                  And the consequence of that is they have now hurt their credibility.

                  Moreover, they’ve been caught out lying, yet there has been no public apology, which further damages their character, values, thus brand.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.3

      Most Green Party members, (And apparently, at least three leading Green Party ex-MPs), believe that these two things, are an attack on parliamentary and party democracy.

      That’s because they don’t understand the real problem – parliamentary politics doesn’t actually work the way that they believe it works.

      The Green Party MPs are now in a position where they’re having to make decisions faster than consultation with the party members allows. They’re also going to have to make compromises and deals that don’t fully uphold the agreed position of the party. Especially when what consultation does happen brings about a stalemate which is what happened in this case (Which actually means that the original position is not as hard and fast as some in the party believed).

      Yes, I’m aware that the Green Party makes decisions by consensus but what percentage of members were actually part of that consensus?

      The Waka Jumping Bill should go through because some 80% of the population support it. A majority of National’s members support it as well but National leaders and MPs are fully against it and so the party will vote against it in block including the ones who are for it. And they won’t have this public hoohaa going on.

      Party politics requires a party MP to tow the party line which will be against what some in the party want including some of those MPs.

      This is why I think we need Participatory Democracy. Where the will of the majority rules and not the clique in parliament. Parliament would still be there but they’d be there to enact what the majority decide and not what they personally think.

    • Stuart Munro 1.4

      I don’t think PG rates as an authority on socialist revolutions of any kind – fascist ones being more his métier.

    • The Chairman 1.5

      “The battle lines are being drawn between those who want to give power to the executives to ignore their membership, and give power to the executives to expel dissenting MPs. And between those who want to protect the right of the membership and parliamentary dissenters to be heard”

      Yet, party co-leaders Shaw and Davidson said they were simply reviewing all of the party’s “documents”.

      Going off that comment re Shaw and Davidson, it seems the so-called leader of the left faction (Davidson) is also aligning against the membership on this one.

      Makes one wonder what else is it the caucus wants to do that they know the wider membership won’t like?

      • KJT 1.5.1

        Unlike Labour, National and NZF, the Greens do not need a Waka jumping bill, because we can simply remove MP’s by vote/consensus, if we wish.


        • The Chairman

          What’s your take on Shaw and Davidson reviewing all of the party’s “documents” and Fitzsimmons concern?

          I don’t think it’s going to help reunite the party.

    • Hanswurst 1.6

      I’m not as familiar with the waka-jumping bill as I should be, and I’m wary of it when in view of the pedigree of some who oppose it, but I would point out that when NZ first MPs left their party under the Shipley ministry, and when Alamein Kopu left the Alliance party, the result was precisely this propping up of the larger parties that you fear the waka-jumping legislation will foster.

  2. Ed 2

    Alcohol is a significant carcinogen.
    Stop drinking.

    “The biggies are really smoking and alcohol. Both tobacco smoke and alcoholic beverages are classified by the IARC as Group 1A: that’s “carcinogenic to humans”. In other words, there’s no doubt about it. Other things in this category include arsenic, asbestos and plutonium.

    We have a big blind spot about alcohol; we know how bad it is for us, but we don’t want to hear it or do anything about it. Nevertheless, alcohol is linked with at least seven cancers, and the level of drinking that increases our cancer risk is lower than we’d probably like to hear. The less we drink, really, the better. ”


    • Ed 2.1

      Stop drinking.

      Professor Doug Selman is an expert on the matter.
      He has been Director of the National Addiction Centre, Christchurch School of Medicine & Health Sciences since its inception in 1996 and Professor within the University of Otago since 2006.

      He says the following.

      “Alcohol is a cause of cancers of the mouth, throat, oesophagus, liver, large bowel and breast, and quite possibly the pancreas, prostate and melanoma as well, although the evidence for these others is not as strong at this point. These were the conclusions of a large international meta-analysis, involving 572 separate studies, published in the British Journal of Cancer.
      The really important point that Connor makes is that many of the cases of these alcohol-related cancers occur in moderate drinkers, ie they are not confined to people with severe alcoholism.”


      • Ad 2.1.1

        With the rate of price increases on cigarettes over the last decade, I’d argue that tax increases are more effective in bringing overall rates of use down.


        For cigarettes, a decade ago 16% of 15-17 year olds smoked, now it’s 4%.

        Also the social assistance through spatial regulation and quit programmes is really strong.

        I’d be very keen to hear from people who’ve modelled the effect of tax increases on alcohol consumption.

      • Ed 2.1.2

        More evidence.
        The New Zealand Medical Association.

        “Despite its normalisation in society, alcohol is not an ordinary commodity. It is a toxin, an intoxicant and an addictive psychotropic drug. As such, its sale and supply is subject to regulation in virtually every country. The current regulatory environment for the sale and supply of alcohol in New Zealand is not doing enough to protect New Zealanders from alcohol-related harms.”

        • Ed

          ‘New Zealand: Where alcohol is normalised – and that means more drinking.

          Boozing has become normalised in New Zealand, and that means it’s likely we’ll drink more – and at higher risk levels, new research says.
          One of the study’s authors, Massey University’s Docter Taisia Huckle, said: “What does normalisation look like? It looks like New Zealand.
          “We have a situation where alcohol is completely normalised in society, through advertising, marketing and availability, alcohol is reasonably priced.”
          School children could walk past three liquor outlets on the way to school or see advertising on social media, she said.


          • Ed

            The facts stand out.

            ‘The Ministry of Health estimates that over 780,000 adults are hazardous drinkers. Statistics NZ figures show the drinking habits for more than a third of people aged 18-24 could be potentially hazardous – regularly consuming six more drinks in a single session.
            Dr Jackson warns there’s been an increase in hazardous drinking every year since 2011, and says it’s increased by more than 50 percent among those aged 45 to 64 years.
            As well as this, hazardous drinking in the 66-74-year age group more than doubled from 2011/12 to 2015/16.
            “Our older drinkers are some of the heaviest drinkers in the world,” she says.
            This drinking has a chilling effect our health system. During the 2016-2017 financial year, 4070 people were hospitalised due to their alcohol consumption.’


            • Ed

              So why do so many New Zealanders still drink?
              They are brainwashed.

              ‘Despite multiple reports over many years of the damage that alcohol is inflicting on individuals and communities, including the critical issue of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder risk, little real action is occurring, according to the authors.

              “It is as if the New Zealand population has been brainwashed and in the grips of a mass social delusion – viewing alcohol as a harmless recreational product which enhances quality of life, and thinking if you are not regularly consuming the tonic you are clearly not part of the cool and successful social mainstream, and possibly a rather ‘iffy’ member of society.”




              • gsays

                “Why do so many New Zealanders still drink?”

                One of the reasons is it is social lubricant.
                What health benefits are there from several belly laughs?

                • Sanctuary

                  I am nursing a hangover this morning from a very long and civilised four course lunch with friends in Titirangi yesterday that did the whole shooting match – beer & cocktails, aperitifs, champagne, various bottles of wine with different courses, dessert wine, brandy, and then (quelle horreur!) more liquor & furtively smoked tobacco based products on the porch. The whole affair took us five hours before the taxis came and carried off the guests in a number of greater or lesser state of hors de combat.

                  It was a splendid day.


                  Yes, it will eventually kill us but then again, ultimately so does the calendar.

                  • Ed

                    I am glad you had a nice day.
                    However, there are known externalities to alcohol consumption.
                    We cannot just dismiss them.


                  • gsays

                    Well done.
                    It’s great to push the boat out from time to time.

                    I was more referring to quiet drink with a colleague after work.

                    I get kiwi can have a major issue with alcohol abuse.
                    I was responding to the notion that there is no upside to consuming alcohol based on my experiences.

                    I am reluctant to confess that I have become smitten with home brewing cider.
                    The latest being a wonderful hopped chilli cider.

                    • Sanctuary

                      I had to give up home brewing on account of the impact my fine stouts were having on my liver and waistline.

                      Now I have bees as a hobby, they obligingly make lots of honey for me, which makes for excellent Xmas presents.

                      I have not troubled to record the opinion of the bees on this matter.

                    • gsays

                      To sanctuary above, when you say bees, I think mead…

                  • Andre

                    All the hectoring in the world about cancer and other non-immediate consequences aren’t going to overcome the fact that consuming alcohol gives rise to pleasurable experiences.

                    But the one observation that prompted me to stop the alcohol except for occasional social functions is that I sleep much much better if I haven’t had a drink. I doubt I’m unique in that respect.

                  • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                    For once I agree with you. We did full 3 course dinner at home in celebration of several things. A hangover today and the chance of cancer in the future was well worth it.

                    Better to enjoy this life than try and spend every minute worrying.

                    Doug sellman is the worst kind of academic. Becoming an expert for the sole purpose of banging on about something that the majority of people enjoy and use responsibly and trying to demonise normal behaviour.

                    • Ed

                      Does an economist persuade you then?

                      ‘Alcohol harm more than triple the cost of all Treaty claims so far – economist.

                      Optimistic numbers show that more than half of the alcohol drunk in New Zealand is harmful – costing each New Zealander $1635 a year.
                      That cost – which annually dwarfs money paid out for Treaty of Waitangi settlements – didn’t even factor in “intergenerational harm”, which would push the number higher still, Berl principal economist Ganesh Nana said.
                      Nana presented his figures to a Te Papa conference on who should pay for the harm of alcohol.
                      That harm in New Zealand was $7.8 billion annually compared to $2.2b spent on Treaty of Waitangi settlements since the 1990s, he said.
                      He found alcohol-related harm cost every New Zealander $1635 each per year.
                      “Lost production of labour is costing us $3.3b a year, health costs combined with road crashes $860 million and alcohol-fuelled crime $1.1b a year.”


                    • solkta

                      Optimistic numbers show that more than half of the alcohol drunk in New Zealand is harmful

                      I’m sure a good Merlot is not in that half.

                    • mauī

                      Yes we celebrated Simon’s 17th birthday, the one teacher to 30,000 kid idea, and the fact the party hasn’t completely imploded last night too.

                    • Incognito

                      When you like to gamble it serves to know the risks. Out of interest, do you have an idea, approximate is fine, what the lifetime risks are for developing and dying from cancer? You may not like the answer …

                  • Robert Guyton

                    “Yes, it will eventually kill us but then again, ultimately so does the calendar.”
                    I guess herion users could say the same thing. And people who surf the roofs of trains or play Russian Roulette. Thrills n spills!

                    • Sanctuary

                      I have a friend who was huffing and puffing in the gym one day and he asked his personal trainer if any of it would extend his life beyond a fairly inflexible pre-determined genetic end point. His personal trainer said yes, it would would – up to ten years if he tried hard. But the trouble is, it is all at the wrong end.

                      None of us are here for more than a blink in the eye of eternity. The world is a great place and the delights of Dionysus are part of it, enjoy it while you can because in the worlds of J M Keynes, in the long run we are all dead.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Sanctuary, yes, on a personal level, but as Ed points out, it’s bigger than that: the issue of young mothers drinking alcohol then producing babies suffering from fatal alcohol syndrome must give you pause to think that as a social trend, burgeoning alcohol consumption could do with some focus from us all; yes?

                    • Sanctuary

                      “…he issue of young mothers drinking alcohol then producing babies suffering from fatal alcohol syndrome must give you pause to think that as a social trend, burgeoning alcohol consumption could do with some focus from us all; yes? …”

                      No, not really. Alcohol abuse is endemic to all societies.

                      We all know how to deal with this issue. Ban supermarket sales, bring in minimum pricing, restrict the number of off-licence outlets and control their opening hours – say, close them all between 9pm and 12am and all day Sunday. Until then, nothing much will change, and until a politician proposes such measures I have given up worrying about it.

                      We don’t have that mythical drinking culture they chattering classes strive for. And anyway as i said, it is just a myth. Those southern Europeans the travelling middle class so admire get as pissed as any German or Anglo-Saxon. Who hasn’t been woken up by a braying donkey under a blazing sun in an Olive grove, suffering a blinding hangover, after to much beer, Ouzo and Retsina with the locals in a lovely Cretan taverna?* They were drinking too, you know.

                      We just mistake their lack of violence when plonked for moderation.

                      Personally, i would like to see more research on why we are so violent when drunk.

                      *OK, so that might have just been me. I was young, give me a break.

                  • mauī

                    A member of the Titirangi elite.

                    • Ed

                      It’s worrying how much in denial people are.
                      We have a crisis folks.
                      Pretending we don’t doesn’t make it go away.

                      How many more deaths?
                      How many more babies with foetal alcohol syndrome?
                      How many more suicides?
                      How many more rapes?
                      How much more domestic violence?
                      How many more car crashes?
                      How many more hospitalisations?

                      Before the complacency ends.

                    • mauī

                      Something tells me the bourgeoisie will not listen and continue to sup.

                    • Ad

                      There’s quite a few of us here.

                      We’re like the leftie X-Files.

                    • greywarshark

                      Are you saying that we have august personages in Titirangi blogging here? I don’t understand your brief reference. Is it in-language between yourself and another elite who are slumming here?

                • Ed

                  More belly laughs….

                  “Conservatively, it’s thought 600 children are born in New Zealand every year with some form of brain damage caused by their mother drinking alcohol, often before they even knew they were pregnant. But many experts think the real number.”


              • Andre

                Oh wow. You found a new hobby-horse, rode it to death, and started flogging the corpse. All in one sub-thread.

                • Ed

                  Actually, I linked anyone interested to a variety of experts in the field on a serious issue facing this country.
                  Thanks for your entirely negative put down response.
                  This is Open Mike.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Ed. That makes sobering reading and while it could be argued you over did the messaging, your research shows how serious the issue is for New Zealanders and individuals who drink alcohol, even at moderate levels. I found this passage especially chilling:

                    “Dr Jackson warns there’s been an increase in hazardous drinking every year since 2011, and says it’s increased by more than 50 percent among those aged 45 to 64 years.
                    As well as this, hazardous drinking in the 66-74-year age group more than doubled from 2011/12 to 2015/16.
                    “Our older drinkers are some of the heaviest drinkers in the world,” she says.
                    This drinking has a chilling effect our health system. During the 2016-2017 financial year, 4070 people were hospitalised due to their alcohol consumption.’”

                    It is Open Mike and while you’ll always attract criticism, often fair, for overdoing your delivery, not “snapping” back would help the medicine go down 🙂

                  • Sanctuary

                    I guess popping a disco biscuit is also out of the quetsion?

                • Morrissey

                  You found a new hobby-horse, rode it to death, and started flogging the corpse.

        • marty mars

          What about climate change and veganism?

          Which would help mitigate climate change more – stopping a diet based around flesh and blood eating and the massive resources needed to generate that sweeping sausage or prohibiting alcohol?

          • Ed

            Of course climate change is the number one issue.
            Most other things fade into insignificance by comparison.

            Stopping eating meat is probably the biggest thing you can do as an individual to mitigate climate change.

            • gsays

              Hey Ed, this is a reply to your comment above in regards to lobbying.
              Now I am right with you.
              The alcohol industry is one of the barriers to changing legislation around marijuana reform.
              Supermarkets too, seem to have the grog all tied up.

              Lobbying could be more acceptable if it was transparent and had limits around it.

            • corodale

              Don’t panic, go organic!
              Eat organic meat, and know that the animal was part of a farm organism, which uses animal manure to enrich compost for sustainable cropping.

              • Ed

                And what percentage of New Zealand’s farming is produced in that way?
                The vast majority looks like this.

            • Grantoc


              I quite like a good red with my filet stake. And I aren’t about to give it up in order to save the world.

              • Ed

                That comment says a lot.

                • mauī

                  Yes a harmer of sentient beings and a climate denier all rolled into one.

                  • Ed

                    Maybe not a climate denier, but certainly someone who puts their own selfish desires above the needs of others and the planet.
                    So, in other words, a neoliberal capitalist.

                  • marty mars

                    don’t forget the alcohol drinker – hard to tell if the demon drink took him or the excessive flesh consumption. But one thing we do know is that evil has a name now…

          • greywarshark

            I think both marty. Flesh and blood eating gives protein and alcohol gives a more toxic, carbohydrate that ruins the brain and creates deficiencies in reliability in the addicted one’s working and family life.

            Someone was pointing out how we have lost control of our wine industry largely to foreigners. NZs grow on contract mostly is the word. Also it uses a lot of water like dairying. And relies on elevated incomes at the upper end. Let them make homebrew when the market falls and we will grow oats on the land left vacant. This grain is a major valued one after wheat and as I understand it has lots of good things in it.
            Good for my breakfast, and doesn’t lead to a red-veined nose like the big drinkers I have observed.

      • RedLogix 2.1.3

        On this you’re totally correct; huge blind spot. I don’t drink much at all, but on reflection here I’m going to cut it altogether. Good references.

      • weston 2.1.4

        So SOMA Ed ?

    • millsy 2.2

      Actually, all indicators seem to show that New Zealanders are drinking less, not more. Off all the pubs that were open back in 1998, I would wager that only half to two thirds are still open today.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.3

      Can Alcohol Help You Live Longer? Here’s What the Research Really Says

      New research, which was presented at the American Association for the Advancement of Science’s annual conference, has found that moderate drinking is linked to a longer life. Drinking about two glasses of wine or beer a day was linked to an 18% drop in a person’s risk of early death—an even stronger effect than the life-preserving practice of exercise, according to the researchers.

      The bottom line

      There’s still a lot scientists don’t know about drinking, but the research clearly suggest that moderation is key. While it’s smart to cut back if your drinking veers into bingeing territory, there’s likely no reason to stop drinking if you do so in small amounts — just as you probably shouldn’t feel compelled to start sipping if you don’t already.

      I think I’ll stick with the age old Everything in moderation including moderation.


  3. marty mars 3

    A good read

    …And it’s sadly not surprising that nearly all of the claims to freedom of expression in this country have been made in defence of racist denigration and slurs. Whether it’s a city councillor suggesting that Captain Cook should have killed more Māori in 1769, or another old white man concluding that Māori are an inferior race, their purported freedom of speech has besmirched a grand ideal with sordid small-mindedness.

    …Most pleasingly, perhaps, the protesters seemed to realise that the much touted “right to offend” that is regarded as part of free speech, is often just a mask which obscures a desire to hurt and damage the most vulnerable in society. It’s the kind of spoken violence which can lead to fascism posing as freedom.

    …And, as history shows, those who constructed colonisation on racist distinctions between inferior Indigenous Peoples and superior Europeans did not necessarily “hate” the people they wished to dispossess. They had simply learned that the “other” was less worthy and needed to be colonised.

    The so-called humanitarian colonisers who came here in the 19th century did not necessarily “hate” Māori. Indeed, they sometimes professed to love us and simply wanted to dispossess us in a sensitive and caring way. But they “knew” we were inferior and would say so with a good faith intent.

    They therefore felt free to malign us because it seemed the natural way of things in which they were entitled to rule the “lesser breeds” with a violent benevolence. Their free speech was the speech of a deceitful and illogically racist power more than an irrational hatred, and today’s racists are no different in that they seek to maintain that power at all costs.

    Some may even claim to respect and want “what is best” for us, but they attack our values, our language, and even our rights because they still see them as less worthy and a threat to the privilege which colonisation has given them. Their freedom depends on limiting ours to the terms and conditions which they determine, as it always has in the whole cruel history of colonisation.

    …In this country, there has long been a tradition of speaking which may be seen as a particular Māori way of exercising free speech within the rules and kawa of the marae. Thus, in every iwi and hapū the physical space of the marae has two separate but intimately connected parts — the marae ātea where the rituals and speeches of welcome generally occur under the mantle of Tūmatauenga, the atua of war, and the whare tīpuna or meeting house which is the domain of Rongo, the atua of peace.


    • corodale 3.1

      Is that a conspiracy theory from the Maori left? That the white Europeans colonised lands because the natives where less worthy? I thought the imperialism was for resources, so they could fight-off the other Kings, Kaisers and Tsar. If it wasn’t the English, it would have been the French. And any French colony I ever saw, had dogs shitting where they shouldn’t. Pardon, but many of us Maori can still recognise a glass half full 😉

      English could quickly see the Maori where equals, too strong to push around, so they did a Treaty, then slowly marginalised the natives with law, banking and all that til capitalism had full control. Ok, maybe the English where more skilled at industrial governance and finance. But the Maori are stronger on mana and all that.

      • marty mars 3.1.1

        There are lots of threads to the weave. Each valid because of the specific perspective and also as a whole, combined narrative.

        Personally I don’t think the English were benevolent to Māori – they still stole the land and resources and tried to annihilate Te Ao Māori albiet with silk gloves on rather than their usual rusty blade.

        • Robert Guyton

          Would you have preferred the French, marty mars?

          • marty mars

            None of the bastards would be my choice.

            • Robert Guyton

              But it was inevitable that someone would arrive; perhaps the English were the best option? And if so, lets get on with making the best of it 🙂

              • marty mars

                Bullshit mate. Sad to read that crap from you.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Marty! I don’t understand your comment but would like to: which bit is bullshit? I don’t want to have given the wrong impression so would appreciate the chance to clarify.

                  • marty mars

                    If you are killed in 1942 by a Nazi or non Nazi German do you think you care about their naziness?

                    The English were NEVER the best of the bunch – their trail of misery spans the globe and adversly affected many differnt indigenous peoples. We rate the english and conform history showing how nice they were because of historic clingons.

                    And yes we are here and we are what we are. We are the waka and the waka is us,


                    • Robert Guyton

                      Thanks, Marty. I share your view of “The English” and their/our rapacious ways/history, however…I still wonder who you would nominate to have replaced them as the incoming culture, given that there was bound to be one; the French? Portuguese? Russians? Chinese? Who, I wonder, would you welcome in place of the English?
                      The complication for me, is … blood. If we are to regard our genetic material as tapu, what do we say about our English toto? Can we dismiss it as not us, indulge in some selective self-hatred, or what?

                    • marty mars

                      Robert my father is English. My whakapapa includes his lines. That is just the way it is. This is the way with whakapapa – lots of Scots in there too.

                      There is no answer to if not the English then who – it is irrelevant.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Thanks, Marty. I’m sorry, I can’t follow this discussion; must be too distracted by the beautiful sunny day we are enjoying here me aku mokopuna e takaro ana around my legs and the temptation to plant out the 100 red currants I lifted yesterday from my cuttings bed…in any case, kia pai to ra e hoa.

                  • greywarshark

                    Robert I wonder sometimes about how it would have been if French had got here and showed real, lasting interest. They still interfere from Paris in Tahitian politics but have they been worse than other countries in their style? The Portugese left Timor L’Este in a bit of a mess. Russians and China have tried to change their own political systems and lines of power, with great upheavals in the main country spreading out to their adherents.

                    The start of NZ was not to be a place to banish Brit criminals like Australia which seems to have left a calculating materialistic culture there. So the zeitgeist was slightly different here at the start, but Maori still had to struggle against free market business approaches, a set of legal attacks on their land owning rights, disease, rigid class systems, and an attempt to obliterate their language and culture. But the Treaty prevented a wholesale bulldozer approach by colonists. Whether the other colonising countries used this legal, or similar agreement I don’t know.

                    The Dutch also could be considered as they were prominent in parts of the Pacific.

                    There is no easy answer – live in perfect peace and that means to be vulnerable to determined adventurers. How people are trying to find a place that they can hold as their own and not be denied a place or job in it by the whims of others who seek to possess whatever they want and dispossess those who have it.

                    Pitcairn Island in 2015 story –

                    Scottish stories:
                    Joining together and investing to own your own place:



                    Micro island colonised by plastic – timely piece.

                    This morning on Radionz Mediawatch there was an item on some bent pseudo-history fantasy that had been made in NZ with a mix of useful dips into the useful bits of science, mixed with supposition and factoids from informed people who can not be named because they would be chastised for leaking by their peers or families. Mediawatch got it taken down from TV on Demand – I think in their Documentary and Factual section!

        • Gabby

          They married quite a few. That was probably a dirty beastly trick too.

          • marty mars

            Ha I think it wasn’t a strategy for them that arrived here.

            For conquering Māori it was a strategy – ties whakapapa together.

      • AB 3.1.2

        I don’t think there’s any conspiracy theory involved in what marty is saying.
        Colonisers have always found ways of morally validating their actions – they have to, otherwise the contradiction between their ethical frameworks and what they actually do, becomes too great.
        There are a number of justifications – all related: christianising heathens, Darwinian inevitably of more advanced populations displacing less advanced, and cultural superiority. Technology differences are often the vector for such misconceptions – if one culture has sailing ships, astronomical instruments, steam engines, 400 years of printed books including Shakespeare and the King James bible and the other doesn’t – it is likely to mistakenly consider itself superior and do bad things.
        Don Brash is the contemporary exemplar of this strand in NZ racism – the deep conviction that the Maori view of the world is pretty worthless and not worth considering

    • xanthe 3.2

      He makes my skin crawl. Wormtongue

  4. veutoviper 4

    Just a half asleep musing.

    At the time of writing this, there are 11 comments in Open Mike, six by Ed and all on alcohol consumption in NZ – a subject of some concern obviously. However, my half asleep observation is that Ed supports his six comments with seven links – all to NZ mainstream media sources namely Stuff, the Herald, Scoop, and Newshub all being media that Ed continually criticises and urges us to ignore. Ummm. …

    This was intended to be in the 2 thread but sorry, I am on IPad and don’t know how to move it there.

    • Ed 4.1

      The link is to scientific experts.
      Selman, Huckle, Bullen, Connor…..

      I could link, using the msm, the arguments made for a pro alcohol shill, such as Leggatt.

      Sorry to inconvenience you by introducing this important topic for discussion.
      Debating the benefits of a plant based diet and discussing the alcoholic state of New Zealand.

      These appear to be off limits subjects for some here.
      This is Open Mike.

    • Morrissey 4.2

      Ed does not urge people to ignore those media. What he does do is urge people to read and view them skeptically. Otherwise we end up repeating, even endorsing, fantasies and black propaganda such as “Putin put Trump into the White House”, “Criticizing Israeli crimes = antisemitism”, “Nicky Hager stole those emails”, and “New Zealand’s troops in Afghanistan are helping to keep the peace.”

  5. Morrissey 5


    by Norman G. Finkelstein, Aug. 17, 2018

    The current hysteria engulfing the British Labour Party resolves itself into a pair of interrelated, if discrete, premises: Anti-Semitism in British society at large and the Labour Party in particular have reached crisis proportions. If neither of these premises can be sustained, then the hysteria is a fabrication. In fact, no evidence has been adduced to substantiate either of them; on the contrary, all the evidence points in the opposite direction. The rational conclusion is that the brouhaha is a calculated hoax—dare it be said, plot?—to oust Jeremy Corbyn and the principled leftist politics he represents from British public life.

    But even if the allegations were true, the solution would still not be to curb freedom of thought in the Labour Party. At its worthiest, the Left-Liberal tradition has attached a unique, primordial value to Truth; but Truth cannot be attained if dissentients, however obnoxious, are silenced. Given the fraught history of anti-Semitism, on the one hand, and its crude manipulation by Jewish elites, on the other, an objective, dispassionate assessment could appear beyond reach. Still, it must be attempted. The prospect of a historic victory for the Left might otherwise be sabotaged as, thus far, Corbyn’s supporters, whether it be from fear, calculation, or political correctness, dare not speak the name of the evil that is afoot.

    The degree of anti-Semitism infecting British society has been the subject of numerous polls over a sustained period of time. These surveys have uniformly, consistently, and unambiguously concluded that anti-Semitism (1) has long been a marginal phenomenon in British society, infecting under 10 percent of the population, (2) is far less salient than hostility to other British minorities, and (3) is less pronounced in the UK than almost anywhere else in Europe. One might suppose that settled matters. But in 2017 the British Institute for Jewish Policy Research (JPR) published a study that purportedly refined conventional wisdom by measuring the “elasticity” of anti-Semitism: that is, not just the percentage of confirmed anti-Semites, but also the prevalence of stereotypes that stigmatize Jews.[1] It found that, whereas a mere 2-5 percent of the British population can be reckoned anti-Semites, fully 30 percent harbor at least one anti-Semitic stereotype.

    Before parsing the study’s data, a couple of truisms warrant recalling. First, a generalization is something that is held to be generally true; it evidently allows for exceptions. ….

    Read more….


  6. bruce 6

    From the Herald

    “I gambled 72 hours non-stop without eating, I gambled without thinking of the consequences.”

    The casino made him a VIP………

    Host responsibility yea right

    • Ed 6.1

      Sky City must be happy politicians are in their pocket.

      • bruce 6.1.1

        Gambling, alcohol, tobacco . sugar, shit food all high profit , lots of money for the corrupt that run the place.
        I heard Kim Hill interview a guy on depression yesterday and he made a lot of sense but then he mentioned possible link between mental ill health and processed food and I thought , well that’s the last we’ll hear of you .
        I also see that anti psychotics use is on the rise sounds like a win win for to high profit industries.

        • Stunned mullet

          “I also see that anti psychotics use is on the rise sounds like a win win for to high profit industries.”

          How is this a win win for high profit industries in NZ ?

          • bruce

            big pharma sell more drugs to hide the effects of processed food so they can sell more of it ,

            • Stunned mullet

              What nonsense. Firstly the antipsychotics in question that are prescribed in this setting olanazpine, quetiapine and risperidone sell all of 280k, 290k and 113k per annum all via generic pharmaceutical companies so hardly very profitable, secondly to suggest that processed foods are involved in the mix of antipsychotic Rxing is frankly bullshit.

        • Ed

          For a healthy and happy life……

          Avoid processed food
          Avoid alcohol
          Avoid eating animals

          • McFlock

            Healthy… meh. Maybe.
            Happy? Fucking doubtful.

            Speaking of which, please tell us that you’re not against recreational sex, at least.

            • bruce

              more recreational sex create more orgone energy heal the world.

            • greywarshark

              Do you think it all getting too weird and wonderful McFlock! Nobody can afford to do anything without thinking about it these days.

              Women drinking before and all during their pregnancies have to have someone look after their maimed babies with foetal alcohol syndrome and who require huge amounts of patience, sometimes they will almost destroy a house in one of their rampages, and to move beyond this can be helped but cannot cope with anything but certainty and regular timetables.

              So recreational sex for them? Only if they have a hysterectomy or a long-term contraceptive implanted. The world is at a dangerous point climatically and in numbers and government has sold itself to the money grubbers. We can;t afford to be casual all the time and not try to help ourselves. The world is having disasters, wars, refugees, huge suffering and we cry when we have pin pricks of controls imposed.

              • McFlock

                Too many damned wowsers in the world.

                I’m not saying women should drink all through pregnancy, no. But a teetotal, vegan, celibate society sounds bloody awful, to me at least. Tobacco-free is irritating enough.

                • greywarshark

                  I am beginning to question the importance of being so controlled as at present when not strictly necessary. Do you feel we are living in a ‘should’ society of semi-puritans? It is like the doctor that wants to stop the 80 year old from drinking whiskey – it’s bad for you. Reply, what the hell – what have I got to lose is appropriate I think.

                  Song from long time ago – Enjoy yourself it’s later than you think, Enjoy yourself while youre still in the pink.

                  • McFlock

                    I think it’s good to know the health effects of what we do.

                    I’m also in favour of things like banning alcohol and tobacco advertising.

                    But I find that all the most interesting people have a small vice or two.

  7. dukeofurl 7

    is see Stacey Kirk has done her expected Bridges soft soap commercial in Stuff


    Not only does she twist the truth she amps the conspiracy angle.

    is there any gallery journalist who unabashed acts so consistently as a national party ‘operative’.

    Not a squeak about why the big jump overall in nationals expenses in the last 3 months. or even if personal use of Crown limos should be curtailed and it only be for parliamentary business ( which wouldnt have excluded Bridges regional tour) . of course a follow up question could have been have you used a limo for a private night out ?

  8. Morrissey 8

    News Corp HQ “is a temple to dumbing down on an international scale.”

  9. greywarshark 9

    As a quiz fan, I have just heard about Brit Eggheads this has been going for decades.
    On youtube – great fun. Minimum of fancy stuff – well staged.

    I have thought of a different line to those concentrating on running in marathons (or acquiring lots of dosh and baubles) till it fills their whole lives and thoughts. What about –
    ‘Be in the human race, where clever people work out to help themselves along with each other and our home – the planet, to reach the finishing line and outwit the machines through exploiting their weak points, not trying to outrun them (because we never can).’

    • Cinny 10.1

      She’s one switched on lady. The best thing to do in labor is to keep active, keep moving, which makes baby come quicker. The worst thing to do is sit around, making labor longer.

      Thinking of Julie-Anne today. All the best beautiful lady 🙂

      • dukeofurl 10.1.1

        She was driving her govt self drive car after shopping/lunching on Ponsonby Road 2 weeks back. No bicycle around then

      • mary_a 10.1.2

        Cinny (10.1) …

        Yep. All the best to Julie Anne Genter. I’m sure she will keep herself physically active during her labour.

        • dukeofurl

          Shes being induced in the hospital …. letting nature take its course for a home birth didnt work out

    • Ad 10.2

      That woman is hard core.

      Finally the Greens do a decent story on Conference weekend.

      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        Yes Greens looking to the future and will no doubt ensure that women in far suth can have a birthing unit with reach of a fairly short drive through bad weather conditions, and so no closing of birthing units.

        All the best to Julie Anne G and baby and partner too!!

  10. joe90 11


    Laughed out loud at this 1986 entry in The Vanity Fair Diaries by @TinaBrownLM: “Boris Johnson is an epic shit. I hope he ends badly” pic.twitter.com/q5TgTZVFG5— Tom Robinson (@freshnet) August 12, 2018

  11. Ed 13

    Peter Whittall.
    What an unpleasant person.

    “Do I feel guilt? No,” Peter Whittall told Stuff. “It is human nature to blame someone.”


    • SaveNZ 13.1

      I’d like to see mandatory community service for every executive in charge of a company that has a worker death on their watch . Money is not enough.

      Then if management are found to be responsible by ignoring safety then they serve time in prison as well as fair compensation to the families, and thus sending a message to the executives in charge of corporations that one death is too many deaths.

      Also with construction. If the building falls aka CTV style, then whoever was in charge of the companies at the time of building have to do community service no matter what and then other charges just come on top.

      Also like to see an automatic payment to the family of the dead worker of $50k straight away to help them, without any litigation having to have to take place, and years going by and any compensation eaten up by lawyers anyway. Then other cost on top.

    • mary_a 13.2

      Thanks Ed (13) … Whittall is a totally unscrupulous man, no compassion or decency whatsoever!

      From one of “guilt free” Whittall’s statements …

      ** My coping mechanism has always been to talk to my family. I have never sought professional psychological assistance, but I have sought the assistance of my family and I have a wonderful wife.”**

      How fortunate for him, when so many who lost loved ones through the Pike River tragedy, don’t have the benefit of having the opportunity to communicate with their spouses or sons at their time of need. They still lay buried in the mine!

      Come to think of it now with the benefit of hindsight, looking back at Pike River spokesman Whittall’s comments to media at the time of the mine explosion, they came across as rehearsed, false and totally without empathy or compassion towards the grieving families! In other words, what he said was absolute BS! Betrayal of the bereaved at the highest level!

    • greywarshark 13.3

      Hey Whittall can observe and truthfully tell about it! It is human nature to bklame someone. And fair enough, if they are found responsible for a bad outcome because of negligence or of not caring about the reasonable safety conditions expected in modern mines.

    • McFlock 13.4

      On Friday a friend of mine was feeling guilty because she wasn’t contactable for a few hours when someone close to her had a bereavement.

      She knew that it was just one of those things – she’s almost always contactable, shit just happened at the worst time. But she felt guilty because she wasn’t there to support her friend.

      It’s human nature to feel guilt for things you didn’t do – to go over whether there’s anything you could have done. And, speaking from experience, that stays with you.

      I just hope that his claims of being “guilt free” are denial and part of a slow healing process, not a reflection on his character. 29 people he was responsible for died. That should effect any normal human permanently, even if whatever happened wasn’t directly his fault. Not permanently crippling, but to not feel any guilt at all sounds callous.

  12. joe90 14

    Elizabeth Warren has a plan; to save capitalism.

    Elizabeth Warren has a big idea that challenges how the Democratic Party thinks about solving the problem of inequality.

    Instead of advocating for expensive new social programs like free college or health care, she’s introducing a bill Wednesday, the Accountable Capitalism Act, that would redistribute trillions of dollars from rich executives and shareholders to the middle class — without costing a dime.

    Warren’s plan starts from the premise that corporations that claim the legal rights of personhood should be legally required to accept the moral obligations of personhood.


    • greywarshark 14.1

      That’s so sweet and reasonable joe 90. That is a woman worth watching and supporting.

    • Bewilderd 14.2

      I am sure they will go down a treat in the land of the free. I would say it is about as viable as Warren passing a DNA test for her Cherokee blood line If she wants other forms of ownership than capital go start a workers cooperative or other form of enterprise. The whole idea of capitalism is for capital to be attracted to the best opprtunity not simply reinvest for reinvestment sake in a firm, hence shareholders reinvest elsewhere If firm does not have viable internal investment options, thus allowing the most efficient use of capital Similarly capitalism forces the firm and it manager to perform or see a falling share price and threat of take over Putting artificial constraints on this as warren proposed would simply weaken US firms competitiveness to that of crony capitalism countries

      • greywarshark 14.2.1

        Gosh bewildered. I get that feeling when I read your comments. This is a left leaning blog and you seem more right. Left in latin I think is sinister and I feel that is how you view us. Am I wrong?

    • Ad 14.3

      once i read the bill i’ll post on it.

  13. Morrissey 15

    I heard Jim Mora vapouring on about “empathy” last week

    It wasn’t the first time, and as per usual, he spoke without the slightest hint of self-awareness or irony….


  14. greywarshark 16

    Councillor: Apology for ‘not enough were killed’ comment inadequate
    12:34 pm today
    Katie Doyle, Journalist
    @katiedoyle01 [email protected]

    A Gisborne District councillor says she’s disappointed by an apology she received about racially inappropriate comments she says were made at an official meeting.

    Meredith Akuhata-Brown said she was at a council meeting when she heard two of her colleagues joking that not enough Māori had been killed during early encounters with James Cook.
    At first, Ms Akuhata-Brown said she could not quite believe what she had heard.
    “Stunned silence to be honest. I had just dealt with some other issues and had been away overseas talking about tolerance etcetera, so I was quite shocked,” she said.

    “I guess now, when I look back, I wish I had’ve said something, but I was just shocked.”

  15. Exkiwiforces 17

    Here is a interesting read in the fires in Sweden and California and how some of the main firefighters are saying is the cause of CC which is now causing them to rethink on how to fight fires IRT CC. Old Mr Dump is blaming the environmental policies of the California State Government, but the firies are saying this is about CC not the States environmental policies.

    But I will say this if people are going to live in the bush you must have a bush fire emergency plan weather you intend to go or stay and fight and once you are committed to your COA then stick to your plan and don’t leave it to the last minute if you change your mind as it will be to late.


  16. Eco Maori 18

    Good morning The AM Show well te sandflys are still giving me Mana.
    Yes Duncan I seen these moves all the time shillary tryed it to and TVNZ 1 deserves what they get new management needed there I say. Ana to kai.
    Good game this weekend Mark looks like you need to play a couple with yours and Mulls game on the Crowd goes Wild Ka kite ano shillary try a few moves against ECO MAORI failed

  17. Eco Maori 19

    Many thanks to the NRL for have a indigenous League competition this is the new way winning of Papatuanukue to celebrate te tangata whenua ECO MAORI Says all country’s should celebrate there tangata whenua we look at te Mokopunas future and Papatuanukue future differently we are more environmently conscious back to the League Ka pai Australia League Ka kite ano link below


  18. Eco Maori 20

    This is why I Back Elon Mus because you have this person and his administration and the Go/Pro Oil Party who don’t give a—–about the Mokopunas or Papatuanukue future they are just on a Huge power grab link is Below.


  19. Eco Maori 21

    This is the reality of the people who trump have in his defence team and administration and he wonders why most people are flipping him the Bird link below Ka kite ano.


  20. Eco Maori 22

    Here we go the state suppression machine at work behind closed doors
    Why have the statetues of Egypt had all there nose cut off because they are African nose the Powers that be do want to admit that It was Africas who founded one of the first great civilisation of Papatuanukue.
    I also don’t agree that tangata whenua arrived in Atoearoa 800 years ago this is a direct oppression of Maori cant have these savages know that they were sailing around Papatuanukue thousands of years before the elete class was still hugging the coast line. They say we wiped out the giant Mour in a hundred years year right it would have taken 200 years at least. I Believe in some of the story’s. To not believe some of the evidence is to have total trust that man is not decfull and we can see that a few will do what ever it takes to keep power. So the probability of Atoearoa history beening suppred is 100% from ECO MAORI views and the reality of how some people have to be woken up to these facts link below Ka kite ano

    I target the correct target this morning
    Ana to kai

  21. Eco Maori 23

    There you go A small community has the saloution to our problems of waste They have been working on it for 18 years they are the biggest employer of the community Ka kite ano link below

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/106063136/a-blueprint-for-solving-new-zealands-waste-problem Ka pai Raglan Eco has some links to that community been a few years tho

  22. eco maori 24

    Mana wahine here’s a lady who is not afraid to speak out about the bad parts to there culture the men can do what they want and the ladies are treated as property ka pai
    Ka kite ano link below

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106172556/tongan-white-sheet-ceremony-full-of-contradictions P.S I read the comment’s It said tangata whenua are not aloud to speak on a Marae not all Iwi have this colonial influenced practices Ngati Porou have name our Marae and Hapu after wahine they are aloud to speak on our Marae link below ka kite ano

  23. eco maori 25

    Good evening Newshub that’s awesome Mp pay freeze Ka pai
    Looks like our Australian cousin don’t want to drop there Paris climate changes commitment’s Ka pai Australian voter’s think about your mokopunas future’s
    Yes we have to look after OUR elderly some people treat them like a commodity they deserve to be treated with respect .
    There you go Mike this intense Papatuanuku weather is all part of Te human caused Global Warming some idiots are still denying these fact’s that we are seeing in reality .
    That’s one reason why Eco Maori love’s Aotearoa no snakes not many animals that can cause harm besides human’s that is.
    Ka kite ano P.S still trying to sort out our moko health issuse

  24. eco maori 26

    The Crowd Goes Wild Jame’s and Mull”s It was a good game of Rugby this weekend .
    Good run down on the League game .
    That was a huge crash at te car racing I missed what comp it is lol Drifting looked good run by Mad Mike did you say
    Ka kite ano

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