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Open Mike 19/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 19th, 2018 - 253 comments
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253 comments on “Open Mike 19/09/2018 ”

  1. Sacha 1

    Govt finally close to repealing Ryall’s constitutionally-outrageous law that forbids court action against government over (not) paying family carers of disabled New Zealanders: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12127423

  2. Sanctuary 2

    So it appears Jacinda made so sort of mistake in an interview yesterday, mana from heaven for the under-employed political hacks who seem to spend their entire time examining various entrails of frogs for the merest sliver of news.

    But she was, apparently, being interviewed by Mike Hoskings at the time.

    WTF??? Who with a brain listens to that a**hole??

    For nine years National ministers and John key refused to front any show that might hold them to account or be interviewed by anyone who they had the slightest grudge against.

    What the fuck is Jacinda thinking getting interviewed by Mike Hoskings? In case she hasn’t noticed, the guy spews forth a daily rant of anti-Labour bullshit on the radio and in the paper.

    Nothing illustrates better the supine cowardice of liberal middle class managerialism masquerading as progressive politics.

    Do you think Savage or Bob Semple or Peter Frazer would have put up with Hosking, let alone agreed to be interviewed by him? Not likely.

    They would have re-nationalised the ZB network and fired the prick.

    The PM should tell ZB she is washing her hair, or opening a letter, during his show at the very least.

    • Alan 2.1

      What century do you live in?
      Hoskings has a highly rated show with many listeners, unless JA wants to be accused of “leadership for the few”, then she is obliged to appear.

      • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1.1

        She can appear elsewhere. No need to feed the troll

        • Mr Nobody

          The problem is that Jacinda appears to only want to appear in front of media doing soft puff pieces or in environments completely under her control with preselected audiences etc.

          Unless she acts swiftly to counter these perceptions the rumours about her struggling with the PM Role, Motherhood will only continue to grow.

      • cleangreen 2.1.2

        Bullshit Alan where to you come from??? Mars perhaps!!!!!

        Jacinda is the prime minister and you are”””””

        PM Jacinda Adern is not ‘obliged’ to ‘cow down’ to your self serving views that the media controls our PM.

        So put that in your pipe and smoke it instead of that other stuff you must be smoking!!!!!

        • Chuck

          Alan is quite right cleangreen.

          It would be unthinkable for any PM not to front on the highest rating breakfast show in NZ.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha

            Leaders lead, not follow. National never understood that one.

            Having said that, I don’t object to her talking on Hosker’s rubbish. But she could consider only appearing on state channels ; instead of appearing on the likes of Hoskers which has the primary purpose of generating private profit.

          • SPC

            Highest rating commerical radio breakfast show.

            But not larger than Morning Report and … and Key avoided RNZ interviews.

          • Draco T Bastard

            If it’s the highest rating breakfast show then all I can say is that TV must be on its way out as it obviously doesn’t cater to the majority.

          • cleangreen


            I think not;

            This a a false notion; – “this highest rating show”.

            This a false rated notion; – as now most watch ‘social media’ not the old gum jawing, talking heads, establishment media, so you are wrong.

          • Fireblade

            In the latest GfK commercial radio ratings survey, the Mike Hosking Breakfast was number one for the breakfast time slot, with a 13.9% share of commercial radio listeners.

            Wow 13.9%. Hoskings political influence is well and truly overstated, particularly in his own mind.

      • James 2.1.3

        She is not “obliged” to be on his show in the slightest.

        But she knows she has to reach out to as many people as possible in order to maximise her possible votes come next election.

        She can’t just appear on Ed sanctioned media outlets. Nobody would hear her.

        • SPC

          How many interviews does Trump do?

          In the age of Facebook, Twitter etc the PM can connect directly to the public without the old fashioned interview process.

          I would recommend a Beehive Media platform to the people, with secondary dispersal via RNZ+ and then from there to other outlets.

          • Draco T Bastard


          • Dennis Frank

            Damn good idea! Govt has a website, why not a more lively public interface? But if framed as a Beehive media op then all other parties in the Beehive would say metoo. Rather than a monopoly, is time-sharing an option for the govt? Consider the long-term equity implications: monopoly reversed when govt changes..

            • veutoviper

              Exactly which Govt website are you referring to?

              There are many …

              • Dennis Frank

                Right. I googled nz govt website & see what you mean! The one I meant was the one for looking up bills in process & select committees.

          • shadrach

            “How many interviews does Trump do?”

            Not many. His stand-ups are generally packed with his own supporters. He takes only pre-submitted questions, and is increasingly pulling out of independent media scrutiny.

            Oh wait…

            • Chuck

              “Oh wait…”

              Haha yep, it seems that is what many here are suggesting – Jacinda needs to take a leaf out of Trump’s book and bypass the media and those pesky questions they keep asking.

          • cleangreen

            100% SPC

            We couldn’t agree more.

          • halfcrown

            A great idea

      • Ngungukai 2.1.4

        Jacinda do not feed the trolls in MSM ?

    • Anne 2.2

      What the fuck is Jacinda thinking getting interviewed by Mike Hoskings?

      Thought it many times.

      There’s a limit to being “inclusive”. If you know who they are, you don’t give your enemies ammunition with which to knock you down.

      • veutoviper 2.2.1

        I agree, Anne. And with James at 2.1.3 above!

        It has been interesting to see the backlash from the msm media to the PM cancelling out of the Nation and Q&A at the weekend – and then doing the coalition/c&s media event on Sunday using Facebook (initially at least) as the main intended livestream/media source for that event.

        Talk about putting some noses out of joint etc – LOLs. Well overdue – and I suspect the first step in hopefully getting a better balance between who calls the shots on media appearances, especially when we look back at the number of times Key failed to front on certain media and got away with it.

        • Ngungukai

          Jacinda needs to starve the trolls in MSM then they will cease to be relevant ?

          • veutoviper

            Not quite as black and white as that, but there are shades of grey in between, which if used carefully, would achieve the result desired.

    • alwyn 2.3

      You suggest
      “So it appears Jacinda made so sort of mistake in an interview yesterday”.
      Actually what you should say is.
      “Jacinda showed yesterday that she is totally ignorant of Economics with her demonstration that she has no idea at all about what GDP actually is.”

      Perhaps she should follow the advice n the old saw
      “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt”.
      Leave all comment on Economic matters to the Ministers who have at least some minor knowledge of the topic.

      • SPC 2.3.1

        Er no, figures from Treasury and IR are indicative of growth in revenues above and or below forecasts – and if the former then one can easily anticipate a good GDP growth figure without seeing the GDP figure supplied by Statistics.

      • cleangreen 2.3.2

        Alwyn = anti-Labour.

      • ankerawshark 2.3.3

        Alwyn @ 2.3………………a party political comment on behalf of National and Simon Bridges.

        • In Vino

          Yes, with alwyn’s usual pretensions to literary knowledge and intellectual superiority. A load of wishfully-thought cacklemush.

    • Jimmy 2.4

      She’s the PM. She should appear on the most popular radio station to get across to biggest audience. No point only going to a student radio station with low number of listeners. But she needs to brush up on her communications skills…MH asked a question about GDP, she repeated it back and he confirmed question about GDP, then apparently answers about Crown accounts?????
      Communication is supposed to be her forte. This just gives ammunition to the opposition.

      • Sanctuary 2.4.1

        The most popular radio station would be Morning Report, which frequently see the PM.

        Hoskings runs a dirtbag show on a private right wing station with an audience of angry old pricks.

      • cleangreen 2.4.2

        No Jimmy,

        Any biased radio network should be sanctioned for breaking the broadcasting act rules of ‘Balanced & fair media coverage’ and many should be either loosing public funding or/and be not included in any appearances with Government ministers and can only broadcast coverage of appearances made on other media platforms that have showed fair & balanced media broadcasts.

        Fair & balanced media is what we expect and deserve.

        • James

          By fair and balanced I assume you mean “stations I agree with”.

          • In Vino

            Most unfair James. Inaccurate as well. They mean the stations the YOU disagree with. That would introduce the principle of ‘balanced and fair’ – concepts you seem to struggle with.

    • AB 2.5

      I think it would be unwise in terms of the ‘optics’ for her to stop appearing.
      Some modification of the approach might be useful – abandoning any expectation that you can win over the host or a fair chunk of the audience by sweet reasonableness might be a start. You can’t appeal to the better natures of right wingers, because they don’t have one – that’s why they are right wingers to start with. Perhaps a bit of good-humoured bluntness about the host being an extremist loon?
      Who knows – but in any case it’s tinkering. Strategically it might be better to look at ways of driving private media into bankruptcy. Perhaps free to air media outlets with popular programming and very cheap or free advertising. Call it ‘the community media initiative’ and hit the for-profit media with a ‘community media levy’ to partially pay for it. Make it impossible to turn a profit from owning media organisations. Once you’ve killed them, it might be possible to enable genuine community media that can evade corporate capture.

      • Anne 2.5.1

        You can’t appeal to the better natures of right wingers, because they don’t have one – that’s why they are right wingers to start with. Perhaps a bit of good-humoured bluntness about the host being an extremist loon?

        Now that would warm the cockles of my beleaguered heart. 😀

    • Chris T 2.6

      Yeah that would work


      “Hey Jacinda. You know how the media are pushing the “Jacinda is weak” platform? I have a great idea. Hide from any interviews that ask you hard questions. The country won’t notice.”

      • SPC 2.6.1

        You mean like Key hiding from RNZ interviews?

        • Chris T

          Key didn’t have media at the time going on about how weak he looks

          • SPC

            Because people who have money are strong, or because they knew if they did, mummy’s boy might not turn up?

            • Chris T

              I have no idea what you are on about

              And Ardern is hardly broke herself now is she?

              I was simply stating why refusing to do certain media “In this particular situation” would be a very bad idea

              Trying to compare it to a completely different situation is pointless

              • ankerawshark

                Chris have you seen Jacinda in parliament up against Bridges? She makes complete mince meat out of him time and time again.

                She has a three month old baby and she’s handling an unrelenting schedule and completely holding her own against an media who are on the attack for political reasons. Christ mate. Don’t know about you, but not many would be up to that…………………..

                The weak thing is the wrong meme. Go back and try something that might have a nano metre of credibility…………

                • Chris T

                  Sorry missed this

                  I agree.

                  But talk of her refusing to go on hosking’s show is just dumb.

                  She is holding her own already with him and just has to continue going in their not taking any shit.

                  The GDP thing was a mistake, take it on the chin and move on.

          • Draco T Bastard

            At no point in time did the MSM hold Key or National to account for his lies and policies that made things worse.

            For Jacinda and Labour it’s always an outright attack.

            See the difference?

          • Chris

            But he looked weak when he lied. He would even start squeaking.

  3. David Farrar has a post with emails (obtained via the OIA) showing that Massey Vice Chancellor Jan Thomas misled the public and also the Massey academic board about the reasons given for banning the student political event that Don Brash was scheduled to speak at.

    Security wasn’t mentioned for days while Thomas looked at ways to stop Brash from speaking.

    Email from the academic board chair to colleagues:

    I asked the Vice-Chancellor how long she had been aware of Dr Brash’s proposed lecture before she took the decision to cancel the lease of the room to the students. She told me that she had been aware of the event for many weeks and had been invited to attend. The students had also informed her that their planned programme of talks would include politicians from all New Zealand’s major political parties.

    My understanding from what Professor Thomas told me, is that she had not considered cancelling the event at any point during that period, because she had no pressing reason to do so. She did not deny that she does not agree with Dr Brash’s views, but she pointed out that she had not at any stage banned him from campus nor insisted that the students disinvite him.

    Thomas made similar claims on Newstalk ZB.

    Farrar comments on various emails:

    Here the VC ask for mechanisms that can be used to stop the event such as financial agreements with clubs and societies.

    So this staffer thinks free speech is just a shield used by “colonial racists” and “conservative commentators”.

    Here the VC says allow Brash to speak will clash with the te Tiriti led ambition and affect their Maori colleagues. She asks if funding can be used to pressure the student associations.

    And Thomas in an email:

    My Strong preference is that we stop it from occurring.

    No mention of security issues at this stage.


    The Vice-Chancellor has lied to the Chair of Massey’s own Academic Board. She said she had not considered cancelling the event at any point during that period when in fact she started to look at ways to cancel it within hours of being told about it.

    This looks bad for Thomas.


    Also from NZH: Internal emails reveal Massey University vice-chancellor more concerned about Don Brash racism than security


    • chris73 3.1

      Wouldn’t lying to your bosses and bringing your employers into disrepute be grounds for firing?

    • Dukeofurl 3.2

      Funny that Farrar didnt worry when Hone Harawira speech at Auckland University was cancelled due to intended protest from campus young Nats.

      he thought the important principle was the Right to protest

      Free speech is a new religion for an old time sinner

      • alwyn 3.2.1

        You realise that your link doesn’t work I presume?
        404 page not found.

          • McFlock

            meanie. Now Alwyn will have to invent some other bullshit reason to be a blinkered tool.

            • RedLogix

              The way I read it Farrar was specifically not objecting to Harawira’s right to speak:

              Having had a brief look I don’t see any suggestion they were going to go into the lecture and shout Hone down. They were going to protest outside, and they specifically said that if any go inside, “we will give Hone a chance to speak, we will listen and we will ask constructive questions while expressing our displeasure in his racial hatred and gutter politics”.

              The charge he was levelling at Harawira (a veteran protestor) was the hypocrisy of using the r-card to object to others protesting against him. Like he’s dished it out for years, but comes over thin-skinned when on the receiving end.

              Not that I’m at all motivated to defend DF (we clashed hugely online years back … with many bad words exchanged) … but you linked to him, I made the mistake of reading it.

              • McFlock

                wasn’t me…

              • Dukeofurl

                campus young nats agitate to stop Harawira having a public ‘lecture’ .
                Law school gets cold feet about ‘disturbances’ and cancels- Hone goes to another venue at university.

                Farrar lauds the right to protest – even if it leads to cancellation. Not a peep about HH free speech rights at all.

                Now we have a complete flip flop when its silly old Don Brash who wants to speak at a university.

                • RedLogix

                  When the left objected to people like Southern and Molyneaux speaking here, quite a few struggled with the ‘free speech’ concept.

                  But the kiwiblog post you linked to doesn’t support that point at all; in it Farrar implicitly accepts Harawira’s right to speak (albeit he’s not wildly keen on it) … while clearly attacking the Harawira’s obvious hypocrisy.

                  That’s how I read it.

                  • McFlock

                    Fairly charitable interpretation of “Oh poor little Hone. Who knew he had such a thin skin. The man who had led dozens of protests, whose family have often assaulted people at protests, can’t handle a few students protesting against him.”.

                    I also loved the bit where they would ask questions and listen “while expressing our displeaure in his racial hatred and gutter politics”. Some things, in some instances, can’t be done concurrently.

      • Muttonbird 3.2.2

        Yep, Farrar does hypocrisy well.

        • chris73

          He was wrong then and now, hopefully, over the preceding 7 years to think about it he’s had a change of heart.

          As for me the bar to ban someone should be set very high, the recent cases in NZ haven’t met that bar

          • Dukeofurl


            the only change is Brash is a right wing bigot…. Farrar hasnt come out and said #changeofheart

      • AB 3.2.3

        “Free speech is a new religion for an old time sinner”

        Of course – ‘free speech’ has been weaponised by the powerful as a tool to preserve the dominance of their preferred narratives.
        What else do you expect from these people? Their invocation of principles always sits on unprincipled foundations.

    • Jimmy 3.3

      Jan Thomas should go. I suspect in the near future she will “decide to return to Australia for personal reasons”. Or be told to go.

    • shadrach 3.4

      Based on the Jan’s emails, she should be fired for slaughtering the English language, let alone anything else.

  4. RedLogix 4

    The digital trustworthiness project. This is a serious ABC item and deeply interesting:


    The 36-year-old knows social credit is not a perfect system but believes it’s the best way to manage a complex country with the world’s biggest population.

    “I think people in every country want a stable and safe society,” she says.

    “If, as our government says, every corner of public space is installed with cameras, I’ll feel safe.”

    Note carefully; it is a 24/7/365 system; in a private setting it will likely be your cell phone apps monitoring you. That’s all the time; nothing will be excluded. (Perhaps the biggest benefit is that it will eliminate sexual crime; everything will have legal evidence of consent or not. Women will be safe from predatory males for the first time in history.)

    Best of all we won’t have to wait too long; full mandatory roll-out is planned in China by 2020 (that’s 18 months off) and I’d expect they will start to impose it on their trading partners within a few years after this.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 4.1

      Nobody is safe from sexual attacks unless those who administer the laws take it seriously.

      You can have an open and shut case and still the perpetrator walks free. The victims life will still be dissected in court. The camera is an extension of the violation.

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        yep – when the men stop raping then women will be safe.

      • RedLogix 4.1.2

        The big problem with all sexual offences, is not so much that it’s not taken seriously, but that sexual acts are in themselves are exceedingly common and almost always done in private. From a Bayesian perspective the false positive/false negative risks are real and troublesome.

        You can have an open and shut case and still the perpetrator walks free.

        Usually because the issue of consent was unable to be proven beyond ‘reasonable doubt’. It’s a very high hurdle; much more easily reached if there is recorded evidence.

    • One Two 4.2

      best of all we won’t have to wait too long

      You sound enthusiastic…

      Did I interpret the tone of your comment correctly?

      Human beings trapped in a digital surveillance network won’t lead to a ‘safe and stable society’…

      It will lead to deeper and more widespread levels of psychological and social issues as the creativity is sucked from biological life …

      • RedLogix 4.2.1

        I’m not blind to a deep ambivalence around this technology; a decade ago this was science fiction. (Specifically Vernor Vinge included this concept as a major plot element in at least two of his works. One of his best lines “Ubiquitous surveillance being one of the better known endpoint of civilisations.”)

        Yet look at the ABC article I linked to in the OP; specifically note how enthusiastic the young marketing woman is about it; how it makes her feel safe. While I’m clearly pushing the logical limits a bit to include 24/7 recording in people’s private lives, look at the converging social pressures and ask yourself how soon this too will become a reality.

        It will absolutely be sold on the ‘peaceful, safe and stable society’ angle; and undeniably it can deliver on this. Combine it with AI and the kind of ‘slaughterbots’ I l linked to yesterday; and a whole new world reveals itself. And honestly I don’t think we can avoid it, we are firmly on the path of all this happening within a decade or less.

        The obvious political question is; who will control it? And what purposes will it serve?

        • One Two

          Thanks RL

          I viewed and read the link…freedoms for safety is a tried and tested sales pitch…

          Undeniably can deliver on this…

          Whichever direction is taken using a digital web against analogue beings will…IMO being ‘unimagined’ outcomes…

          I’ve watched on from close proximity, as the road maps have been deployed…

          The technology can’t and won’t be controlled…not in a benevolent sense…

          Not by human beings…playing ‘god’…against other human beings…

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3

      That’s disturbing. Not so much the cameras but the fact that they’re using it to exclude people from society:

      But social credit will be affected by more than just internet browsing and shopping decisions.

      Who your friends and family are will affect your score. If your best friend or your dad says something negative about the government, you’ll lose points too.

      Who you date and ultimately partner with will also affect social credit.

      • RedLogix 4.3.1

        Deep fucking rabbit hole isn’t it? What impresses me most is the large percentage of people who will enthusiastically throw themselves down it.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    Duncan Garner just asked Tova O’Brien if our government was Labour-led. She said she doesn’t know, mentioning that this description was recently removed from Labour’s website and replaced with coalition.

    Better to be politically correct than aspirational? Yes. Wikipedia has 50c on each option: “Labour-led coalition government”. But that’s only true if there’s a general perception in Aotearoa that Labour is leading the government. I predict that any poll would find a third of respondents agree, a third disagree, and a third have no idea.

    TVNZ: “Jacinda Ardern and Simon Bridges traded barbs over the terminology “Labour led Government” in a spirited exchange during Question Time in the House today. The issue was raised by Mr Bridges after Winston Peters had recently taken exception to the Opposition using the term “Labour led Government” in the House.”


    Ask the rogue Labour Ministers & you’ll get this: “Well, we all tried to lead by announcing Labour policy as if the coalition had agreed to it. Didn’t work.” Could be that the actual coalition leaders disapproved of their behaviour, eh? Damn tricky business, leadership.

    “Ms Ardern sought to discredit the question as irrelevant”. Better to dodge than answer. A real leader must be dodgy? Tacit belief. She’d be unlikely to admit it.

    Bridges: “Speaking of semantics why are there over 50 references by her ministers in this Parliament to being a Labour led Government?” PM: “Because we’re in Government and you’re not.” Adept shift back into aspirational mode. Say Labour-led enough times, it might actually happen (the power of positive thinking).

    • Chuck 5.1

      Of course, this Government is Labour lead, up until Winston went rogue. Labour ministers were blindsided by Winston.

      Now we have a stage management circus of it is not Labour lead, despite Ardern all but saying that when pressed.

      I feel sorry for Ardern, this conversation never needed to occur, but thanks to Winston its front and center.

      It will get very interesting closer to the next election as Winston unhooks NZF from the current “Coalition Government” and goes into election mode…

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1

        I disagree that “Labour ministers were blindsided by Winston”. They failed to adhere to protocol. The PM has been quite explicit that her govt does not adopt a policy until it is brought to cabinet for agreement. She has yet to acknowledge this failure by her ministers. Nor have any media asked her to do so. They’re too busy playing up Winston’s statements of fact as if these were an attempt by NZF to hijack the coalition. It was those rogue Labour ministers who attempted a hijack. Don’t let media incompetence fool you.

      • cleangreen 5.1.2

        Chuck, you speak rubbish;

        Are you an American? or Canadian perhaps,

        So anyway if Winston has been made deputy PM why do you think he has no role???

        I spent many years in US/Canada and in both countries the US vice president or deputy PM of Canada had a lot to say about how those countries are run.

        So we expect the same from our Deputy and not just a figure head or ‘stool pigeon as you suggest that he be.

        • Chuck

          “So anyway if Winston has been made deputy PM why do you think he has no role???”

          I did not say he had no role.

          You are confusing Peters role as [a] the Deputy PM / Foreign Minister with that of being the [b] leader for NZF.

          The first [a] is helping to run the country (Duty PM duties and matters that require the Foreign Minister to attend to). The second [b] to ensure NZF remains relevant and able to survive in 2020.

          It is [b] that is providing a headache to Ardern and co.

    • Sanctuary 5.2

      The easy answer to Bridges would be “Call it what you like, we are still calling the shots. Now haven’t you got some insurance to sell?”

  6. marty mars 6

    I’m impressed by this apology – thank you.

    ” “I wish to apologise for my insensitive comment on Newshub last night, I in no way meant to upset and offend people,” she said. “I am extremely devastated, and I understand the serious issue that New Zealand has with suicide rates,” she said. ”


    We all say thing we regret, or think, ‘mmmmmm maybe I could have framed that better’ – it takes mana to apologise when we get it wrong.

    A few in this forum could well take Maria’s example

  7. cleangreen 8

    Regarding all the press agro going on now with who said this and who said that!

    This as all become over exaggerated in my mind.

    I married a British woman 46 yrs ago and the British never let others worry them as kiwis seem to I have learned, as it is something in there British up-bringing possibly to be more tolerant. my wife uses humour to dispel the hurt it seems.

    We all need to become more thick skinned I think and not take so much offence to what others say about us all.

    There was always ‘bullies in the school playground when I first went to school’ – so we got over it all then and learned to cope, so why not now??

    ‘Let it go Michael’ – as she said in the Vogels bread ad.

    • RedLogix 8.1

      It’s a good question. Not all children have the tools and resilience to ‘get over it’. I was on the wrong end of sustained bullying at primary school for years. Lacking an understanding of it or any resource to help me respond correctly the effects lingered for decades after.

      In my 30s I encountered a classic workplace psychopath supervisor (again for years) who utterly demolished my self-confidence. Eventually some time later I reached out on the internet and had an excellent email exchange with an early pioneer in the field based in the UK (The late Tim Field). It made a huge difference to simply understand what had happened, why it had the impact it did and to confront the trauma of it with a language that made sense to me.

      That was back in the 90’s way before any of this became fashionable. Since then the entire ‘bullying’ topic has expanded enormously; what was hidden is now visible. This is a very good thing. At the same time, as any professional will tell you, the moment any organisation implements formal, punitive processes to tackle bullying, the very first people to make use of it will be the worst bullies themselves. Sociopaths immediately see these as mechanisms to extend their own power games.

      Dealing with bullying effectively is non-trivial, and complex. From my experience however, it’s the individual who is best placed to deal with it, if they understand what is happening and have some support in the decisions they make.

      • Ankerrawshark 8.1.1

        Sorry to hear you were bullied red logic. It is a ghastly pernicious experience often with profound long term mental health sequele

        • RedLogix

          @ Ankerrawshark

          I appreciate the sentiment but with respect I’d prefer to decline the sympathy. My biggest problem was naivety; as a young boy I had a very sheltered upbringing, was fairly reserved and lacked the usual social skills necessary to participate successfully in the usual playground rough and tumble. This didn’t matter to most kids, but there were three specific boys who spotted me as an easy target; what I didn’t understand was that there always are a small minority of people who are poorly controlled, spiteful and malevolent.

          The point is; there was little to nothing that I could do about them; but lacking any understand or words to frame what was happening was the real problem. That was the cause of the lingering effects; it was so inexplicable and there was no-one to guide or advise me through it. (Incidentally as adults I know that at least two of these boys had very sad and unpleasant fates. Clearly they too were on a path I had no understanding or control over.)

          The second round in my 30’s resolved quite differently because of the relatively modest help I received from Tim Field (hell I think it was three or four emails at most). Once the naivety was erased and I had some words to frame the experience with; I now feel quite settled on the matter.

          There are multiple aspects to bullying; the sociopathic perpetrator is very specific problem that can be very difficult, even for trained professionals, to deal with effectively. Then there is group mobbing which is another related phenomenon that can be addressed with sound policies and effective leadership.

          Ultimately the individual victim’s best bet is to understand and confront the issue early and decide for themselves how best to respond. It won’t make the immediate mess and ugliness go away; but it will mostly eliminate any longer term effects.

          • ankerawshark

            Ok. red logix. I understand my comments were less that helpful.

            I would add to what you have said though, in terms of bystanders who do nothing about bullying (particularly the group think type that you allude to)….The role of bystanders can be key in changing the bullying situation.

            Not sure anyone has does the research about the effects of bullying going away. Maybe for most. But there seems to be a high co-realation with social anxiety disorder. Unsurprizingly.

            • RedLogix

              I understand my comments were less that helpful.

              I didn’t say anything on this topic to look for sympathy … but equally I’m sure you made your comment with the very best intention and I’ve truly no problem with that.

              Yes the bystander effect is a big component of mobbing. It’s one of the more troubling aspects; most people like to think they’d do the right thing, yet anecdotally way too often they don’t. They actually join in and either egg the primary perpetrator on, or more perniciously they actually take over the role giving the originator a plausible cover.

              Trauma is a fascinating topic and I’m not going to pretend to be an expert; yet over time I’ve learned a bit about it. The key risk factor seems to be naivety; a lack awareness of the human capacity for evil and the shock when confronted with it. The best resolution in my experience is to go back and relive the experience in detail and undo the shock.

              Just my personal perspectives on what is definitely a complex and personal topic for many people.

      • Anne 8.1.2

        Thanks for that Redlogix. Good to know others went through the same kind of bullying experiences. Mine unfortunately took a rather sinister turn.

        In many cases the bullies are believed while the victim is not. It never ceases to amaze me how often they are upheld as honest, law abiding citizens while the victims are left to struggle alone and unsupported.

        • RedLogix

          Yes … I recall quite well your prior accounts of this. It may surprise you to know that your words have been helpful and confirming. Getting to the point of speaking openly about it is a big step along the way of confronting the shame.

      • Sacha 8.1.3

        Thank you. Reading some of Tim Field’s work helped me understand why a workplace bully had picked me out as a target.

        And yes, she got rewarded by the organisation while I was shuffled out the door by HR.

        • RedLogix

          she got rewarded by the organisation while I was shuffled out the door by HR.

          Absolutely that’s what Tim advised me almost always happens. What you can’t see is all the maneuvering and pre-positioning that the perpetrator has put in place long before you even think of making a formal complaint. Usually by the time you get to that point it’s way too late. His advice to me was quite unequivocal; get out.

          His other advice was equally helpful; these people are everywhere and you WILL encounter them again. Only in future you will not be naive and indiscriminately trust everyone; and especially you will not entrust unknown people with sensitive information about yourself.

          And then when as it inevitably will, you find yourself being victimised again, immediately confront them, respond firmly and truthfully. Most of the time they’ll move onto someone easier to hurt.

          • Sacha

            Certainly won’t happen again. Horrible experience.

          • Anne

            What you can’t see is all the maneuvering and pre-positioning that the perpetrator has put in place long before you even think of making a formal complaint. Usually by the time you get to that point it’s way too late. His advice to me was quite unequivocal; get out

            Your words on this subject are invaluable to me Redlogix. Yes, I did eventually get out but I held on too long because I had a mortgage to pay off.

            As a sideline:

            I have in front of me today’s NZ Herald. It is almost entirely devoted to Celebrating 125 years of Women’s Suffrage in Aotearoa New Zealand. Inside are the photos of many women. Some are just ordinary women and I applaud them for allowing the trials and tribulations in their lives to be made public. Many others are well known women – past and present – and some of them held/hold high places in this land of ours.

            I look upon some of those “well known women” with a degree of cynicism. And here’s why. At a time in my life when I was being terrorised [and that is not too strong a word] both in the work-place and beyond I sought, in desperation, the support of a few highly placed women in my attempt to have the problem resolved. To my knowledge, not one of them lifted a finger on my behalf.

            I know the truth now – or most of it. And its about as nasty a story as you can possibly get. Yet I was not even able to seek – let alone receive – any form of natural justice from those charged with the task of dispensing it.

    • Gabby 8.2

      Your wife was in a Vogels bread ad?

      • veutoviper 8.2.1

        Leave it Gabby. Age is a big factor in things not necessarily being expressed as clearly as they could. You may well face the same as time goes on.

        • Antoine

          As is youth


          • veutoviper

            Agreed, but not in this case as the person concerned is actually known to some of us* – for a lot of good work in his areas of interest in the past, I will add.

            * Obviously I will not be revealing anything further.

    • Oh you are a grubby little troll aren’t you. Sad little boy not getting attention like he expects boo hoo.

      • james 9.1.1

        No – I think they did exactly the right thing by ignoring that nonsense.

        Im guessing by your personal attack that you have nothing to comment on the matter. Bit over your head is it?

        • marty mars

          Lol I see my comment was too much for your puny brain eh troll. You don’t fool anyone except yourself.

          • veutoviper

            Come on you two – meaning you, James, as well.

            I appreciate you do have differences re diet for example, and positions on the political spectrum but James is a bit of a stirrer rather than a full on hard core troll IMO – and sometimes people take him too literally.

            Re James’ comment re the midwifes’ article, I don’t believe for one minute that he meant that entirely seriously and that he thinks that they are earning their real worth. He probably would not go as far as the five times calculation, but from other things he has said in the past, I read his comment as having a slight degree of sarcasm built in.

            I am feeling mellow as its a lovely day here in Wellington, its Suffrage 125 Day today (a big one for me as a F) – and this!!!!

            Open Mike 19/09/2018

            If you two keep this up, perhaps you should join them – ROFL!

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2

      Yes, can’t have people paid what they’re actually worth. That would lower the profits of the bludgers.

    • AB 9.3

      Only if you are already in thrall to the myth that markets pay people what they are ‘worth’, would you even attempt to construct some analysis of what midwives are ‘really’ worth.
      As though the market were merely in the grip of some innocent misconception of the ‘true’ worth of midwives and could be persuaded to see the truth somehow.
      Sometimes the left is so naïve my eyes bleed.
      A better question to ask is – “does society need midwives?” If the answer is ‘yes’ then being a midwife should ipso facto result in a decent life with housing, healthcare etc. Similarly, a question – “does society need Merrill Lynch currency traders?” would result in a ‘no’.

  8. Dennis Frank 10

    “That our Prime Minister guest-edited my column today on the occasion of 125 years of women’s suffrage, signifies a number of important things. All of them good” https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12125057

    Rachel Stewart goes on to balance that with the bad: “I asked around my gal pals – from diverse backgrounds and ages – whether they thought women are destined to experience a better near-future in Aotearoa. Here’s a selection of their responses” [edited highlights]:

    “I’m a feminist from way back, and watching the new wave of young feminists is disheartening. They’ll have you believe that up is down, black is white, and transgender men are women just because they say they are. And if you don’t agree with that view then you deserve to die a gruesome death — ironically enough, usually involving fire. Nope. I’ll fight them in the trenches because that’s not feminism. That’s misogyny.”

    “I’m dismayed by the amount of young women not wanting to claim to be feminists. They appear to view ‘feminist’ as a dirty word. They see it as a pejorative. They have no real sense of history, or of what feminism has achieved for them. Like a white wedding is the peak of their aspirations.”

    She concludes “women need to be united against hard-line patriarchy. I suspect we’ll soon find out we’ve never been further apart.” Credit those female deniers of the residual patriarchy with human nature: if the thing is so well-camouflaged that you can’t see it, then it’s as if it doesn’t exist. Occam’s razor.

    • arkie 10.1

      What are you saying here Dennis?

      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1

        What part don’t you understand??

        • arkie

          The parts that aren’t direct quotes from the linked article.

          Credit those female deniers of the residual patriarchy with human nature: if the thing is so well-camouflaged that you can’t see it, then it’s as if it doesn’t exist. Occam’s razor.

          What does this mean?

          • veutoviper

            +1111 arkie.

            As a woman, it was a ‘what the hell does he mean’ moment for me also.

          • Dennis Frank

            Did you google Occam’s razor? If not, do so. The other part means give suitable consideration to those who cannot see the residual patriarchy because the evidence that it still operates is only acknowledged by those who look for it plus those who notice it without any effort (a minority).

            Since political psychology drives political stances, don’t expect women to become ideologically aligned with feminism unless their personal experience predisposes them towards that. Seems to me this experiential divide provides the lack of common ground – thus the lack of consensus she highlights.

            • arkie

              Could one perhaps use a razor to trim your florid prose to the nub? Correct me if I am wrong but you think only a minority of women think patriarchy still exists

              • Dennis Frank

                If a poll were conducted to ascertain this, I wouldn’t be surprised at that result. Depends on the question. If you asked “have you personally noticed evidence that a residual patriarchy is still operating?” you’d be more likely to get a minority agreeing than if you asked “do you believe that a residual patriarchy is still operating?”

                • arkie

                  And you came to this conclusion after reading an article by a woman who talked to other women, none of whom dismissed the existence of patriarchy, who finished her piece with a call for women to unify in the face of patriarchy?

                  To further my original question; Are you saying you don’t believe the patriarchy exists?

                  • Dennis Frank

                    I have referred to the existence of the residual patriarchy on numerous occasions on this site. I believe it ought to be eliminated. As regards your first question I suspect the answer is no but I’m actually not sure what you’re getting at..

                    • arkie


                      If you asked “have you personally noticed evidence that a residual patriarchy is still operating?” you’d be more likely to get a minority agreeing

                      This is the opposite conclusion I reached after reading Stewarts article.

                      The characterising of patriarchy as being ‘residual’ seems to me to be minimising the words and experiences of the women quoted in the article.

                      the evidence that it still operates is only acknowledged by those who look for it plus those who notice it without any effort (a minority).

                      I would dispute this, the article you quoted disputes this. Why would you say this?

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Could be a generational thing? Having lived through a time earlier in life when the patriarchy was being actively opposed by women’s lib I’ve been intrigued at the lack of continuance. I think the psychology that drives this is worth exploring. Can’t solve a problem if you omit the analysis/diagnosis phase.

                      I use residual to point out that the patriarchy resides. To counter the `battle won’ false assumption that set in after the seventies (due to many seeing equal rights as attained).

                      In respect of your final question, my view has been formed through the decades since. If you think there’s a new groundswell of feminism, and also believe Rachel thinks so, I’d just point out she didn’t say so. She seemed concerned about the female divide.

                    • Sacha

                      That is not what ‘residual’ means, but then I suspect you probably know that already. ‘Continuing’ might have been a better word.

                    • arkie

                      In respect of your final question, my view has been formed through the decades since. If you think there’s a new groundswell of feminism, and also believe Rachel thinks so, I’d just point out she didn’t say so. She seemed concerned about the female divide.

                      I don’t think there is a new ‘groundswell’, I don’t think Rachel thinks that either and I did not state that. I would just point out I asked why would you say ‘that [patriarchy] still operates is only acknowledged for those who look for it etc. etc.

                      You selected 2/5 direct quotes from Rachel Stewarts ‘gal pals’; One, a TERF, who expresses some bigoted views and claims ‘the new wave of feminists’ (could that be a new groundswell perhaps?!) do not practise real feminism (No True Scotsman, look it up on Google). And another who is concerned about the number of young women who see feminism as a pejorative. Neither of these views deny the existence of patriarchy. The 3/5 that you didn’t quote all point to the continuation and inescapability of the patriarchy. And yes, Stewart is concerned about the divide between women, and that is because, as she says, now ‘[m]ore than ever’ women must oppose patriarchy.

                      This seems to show that ‘those who look for [patriarchy]’ aren’t having any trouble analysing/diagnosing it, and they happen to be the majority of women, rather than the ‘minority’ that you asserted.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Cambridge English Dictionary: “the part that is left after the main part has gone or been taken away” (residue). That was my intended meaning..

                    • Sacha

                      How does this: “the part that is left after the main part has gone or been taken away” (residue)”

                      do this:

                      “counter the`battle won’ false assumption that set in after the seventies (due to many seeing equal rights as attained).”

                      You are contradicting yourself. Women deserve better from us.

  9. veutoviper 11

    “Quite a day or two then”

    Hurrah! What a relief to wake up on Suffrage 125 Day to find the kids now have their own sandpit and the rest of us don’t have to scroll past posts telling us we must read and believe the links in them – and if we don’t, we are warmongers.

    Thanks for this long needed side road from the main stream of TS. Long may it last – hopefully as a regular/ongoing feature!

  10. SaveNZ 12

    New Zealand banks have ticked off another record profit.

    New analysis from KPMG shows the sector made 14.61 per cent more in the June quarter than the previous three months, banking a total $1.42 billion.

    Banks had to pay $7m less in operating expenses in the June quarter than they had in the three months to March.

    Regional development minister Shane Jones has taken aim at banks’ profits in recent months, saying they continued to make more and more money while offering less service to New Zealand.


  11. SaveNZ 13

    Indian husband allegedly prostituting intellectually disabled Kiwi wife, police complaint lodged

    “Suchdev said in her complaint the 18-year-old woman had multiple intellectual problems and her mental capability of understanding was severely limited.

    “[The husband] is interested in her until he gets his residency,” she wrote.

    “But in the meantime, she is getting sexually abused by his friends too.”

    Suchdev alleged the man – who entered New Zealand on a student visa – was “sexually and monetarily abusing” the special needs woman for the purpose of gaining permanent residency.

    Detective Sergeant Rob Cleary, of Counties Manukau Police, said sexual exploitation of a person with significant impairment was illegal under the Crimes Act.

    But he noted that no person had been charged with this or anything else in relation to this case.”


    • SaveNZ 13.1

      In light of all the police/private investigation involvement in investigating seemingly harmless people aka Rochelle Rees, Nicky Hager – wonder if police bother to seize computers etc, spy on a serious situation, to obtain evidence in these sexual/immigration crimes… or like Roast busters, is it all about turning a blind eye and not bothering to do much to investigate these allegations?

      • cleangreen 13.1.1


        If it had been other kiwis abusing another police should have shown the same response that they did with any crime against another; – no matter what.
        She was intellectually challenged so the police should have intervened as she obviously could not understand that she was being abused.

        You are right the police did not show balance here.

        • SaveNZ

          One of the reasons sexual crime seems to be so hard to prosecute, is that is not much interest in actually prosecuting and investigating it very well by police.

          I’m sure if you have a look on people’s computers and phones for example there would be evidence….

          I’m still disgusted no prosecution about the Roast busters when they were gang raping and openly posting on line sex on minors who did not supply the alcohol…

          • greywarshark

            I believe that one of the young people involved in the Roastbusters case was a policeperson’s child. I’m being very careful with my nomenclature here.

            It seems hard for police to deal with sexual crime. The situation of the promotion of someone who had been heard defending the police rape miscreants, is indication of the problem. I think most of them are rather conservative and have simple attitudes to women and sexuality which in these days of greater openness about it leaves them in an invidious and hypocritical mindset.

            The man enjoys doing the naughty or forbidden thing, then turns round and disdains the woman involved who was ‘asking for it’ and is getting ‘what she deserves’, while he is somehow superior and untouched because he is just behaving like a natural lusty man. So he is natural and okay while she somehow is unnatural, animalistic and unrefined and an object of derision and name-calling.

  12. Chuck 14

    Hipkins ordered by the Speaker to produce emails between Curran and Handley today.

    “Chris Hipkins was visibly unhappy with the Speaker of the House Trevor Mallard, who gave him 24 hours to front up with the emails at question time yesterday.”


    I heard on the grapevine last night a certain Labour MP was seen buying all the black maker pens in central Wellington due to the share size of the redacting exercise 🙂

    But all jokes aside, this could expose Ardern and co. to even more scrutiny on the trainwreck called Curran.

    • Dennis Frank 14.1

      I suspect you meant sheer size. What a marvellous illustration this will be of Labour’s commitment to transparent governance. Since nobody in the media or here has yet been able to specify any laws or rules she broke, in regard to her communications with Handley, I can hardly wait to see the (non)existence of a smoking gun.

      • chris73 14.1.1

        Politics is mostly perception whether we like it or not

        • greywarshark

          Here we have the nub of the matter. The RW does not bother with facts and reason because ‘politics is mostly perception’. Perspicacious, not!

      • Chuck 14.1.2

        Yes meant “sheer”!

        “What a marvellous illustration this will be of Labour’s commitment to transparent governance”

        Sure…if being ordered by the Speaker to front up with the emails = “a commitment to transparent governance”.

      • SHG 14.1.3


        Grant Robertson reads outline of Clare Curran emails but no release

        Emails exchanged between former minister Clare Curran and millionaire entrepreneur Derek Handley over the Government’s chief technology role via her private email account remain a mystery, despite attempts by Parliament’s Speaker to shed light on them.

        Speaker Trevor Mallard yesterday directed State Services Minister Chris Hipkins to bring with him to the debating chamber today all previously undisclosed emails from Curran’s private Gmail account to and from Handley on the CTO role in order to satisfy questions from National’s Nick Smith.

        Today Finance Minister Grant Robertson, standing in for Hipkins who has gone on parental leave, read out the dates and a description of the content of the emails.

        Curran has handed over her emails to Archives New Zealand, which has in turn told Mallard that the Public Records Act overrides the Official Information Act and Curran retains ownership and control of them.

        Robertson said he had been assured Curran would release them under the Official Information Act.

        Meanwhile, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has told Parliament that in addition to a text message, she also received an unsolicited email to her private account from Handley on June 7 but did not open it or reply to it.

        Trainwreck keeps on rolling.

    • cleangreen 14.2


      You are really showing your trolling capabilities here.

      I have not seen any positive comments from you about the new MMP Government yet so we await that herculean event when it finally comes.

  13. Exkiwiforces 15

    I found this little piece in the Australian newspaper, quite frankly I’m very disturbed and disgusted at what I was reading from a ethical, moral and Military POV.
    With a familiar face that’s pop up again by the name of Erik Prince who once own Blackwater, whose plan envisages withdrawal 15,000 US troops from Afghanistan to replace them with a 8,000 strong private army including its own privatised air support IOF the US to slash its annual cost of supporting the Afghanistan war by $US70B.


    • SaveNZ 15.2

      it is obvious that neoliberalism and offshoots will look to privatise all government services… from military, policy, hospitals and schools.. in many cases it is already started and in full force, and until people look at the entire strategy of privatisation they should see what the results will be which are private military and police that the government “contracts” to do work as needed. If you don’t believe in people, are intellectually lazy, don’t believe in government, don’t believe in conflicts of interest and corruption, or independent public service and think cost is the most important factor, privatisation makes sense…

      In NZ, we have so many services privatised to the highest bidder going for the easiest targets of course (generally women), from our state house land with Kiwibuild, maternity care with birth care instead of hospital (I noticed Jacinda and Neve was not bundled off in the car after a few hours to birth care (a great service but it should be in the hospital) for example like most women who give birth in Auckland, Plunket, Emergency Helicopter rescue, many aged care services, lifeline, blood tests … etc etc

      • SaveNZ 15.2.1

        In Britain the armed forces even sold their houses off years ago and now apparently can’t afford the costs of housing their soldiers… bingo, wonderful solution to let ‘private’ companies supply the military…and no pesky worries like looking after the troops and all that nonsense. Just use the cheapest people too, under globalism we are all the same…


        • SaveNZ

          In NZ under Kiwibuild – it is obvious they will run out of land and rental housing for the poor – another transfer of taxpayer money to large private sector. So what will they do? Well of course they will pay private companies to provide the social housing…. with taxpayers money… just like in the UK what has happened…

          Just look at housing to see the true cost of privatisation


          and whose idea it was


        • Exkiwiforces

          They did the same thing in NZ under the last Government as Treaty deal to the iwi and now the NZDF service personal have to full market rent. Try renting MQ or as singlely in a LIA on a AB, LS or a Sub Leut wage around Devonport Naval Base.

          The muppets over here in Oz had a crack at flogging off Defence Housing and our 50% subsidie we pay for Service Quarters, but ran into a bit of road block from Ex/ Service associations and Aunty Jackie Lambie.

          The UK MQ and LIA has turned into a right royal cock up and the contacting out the messes also turned into a political cake for the MOD and the UK Government at time with even old Chuck and randy Andy raising their concerns via official lines and leaks to the media at the state of MQ’s, LIA and the messes.

          • Descendant Of Sssmith

            Family in Hawkes Bay tell me Tremains are just itching to build housing in Maraenui after the bulldozing of the state housing there.

            Of course the poor who currently live there won’t be able to afford the rent on the new homes so will be shifted elsewhere.

    • OnceWasTim 15.3

      He was on Hardtalk with Stephen Sachur yesterday. It nearly made me vomit.
      But then I do remember Maggie Thatcher’s little boy. I onced asked ‘the Met’ about some details – still have the emails somewhere. Equally vomit inspiring

      • OnceWasTim 15.3.1

        Actually it’s replaying right now on BBC World News 15:30 NZST.

      • OnceWasTim 15.3.2

        Oh btw….if you do watch it till the end, you’ll see that Mr Tuff Guy couldn’t get out of the studio fast enough. Although I concede he could have had an appointment elsewhere for a debrief and an opportunity to push his agenda.
        And Christ! …. I could go on ad infinitum. There was this discussion in that interview that referenced the East India Company. Far be it for me to suggest that if we were back in that era, it’s most likely Mr Tuff Guy would be missing a head – and probably more is the pity

  14. veutoviper 16

    Refugee quota to be raised to 1500

    Just announced by the PM with the Deputy Pm at her side! LOL.

    Regrettably not until 2020 – IMO. But there we are, Cabinet has met and Cabinet has decided. All is well in the world.

  15. chris73 17

    This is really not good, not good at all

  16. Muttonbird 18

    “It may have been the least impressive sex I’ve ever had, but clearly, he didn’t share that opinion,” she wrote in her memoir, according to the Guardian.

    She described Trump’s penis as “smaller than average” in the memoir.

    Nice burn from Stormy Daniels. She knows how to hit him where it hurts – his massively inflated ego.

    Wait for the Twitter storm.


  17. ankerawshark 19

    Lovely wee article in overseas publication ??Grazia of Clark with baby Neve. Very discreet pic of the baby, but gosh she’s grown……………………

  18. ankerawshark 20


    Sorry guys, Here’s the link. Its the Daily Mail. Who wants to bet Soper et al and Bridges will be forming at the mouth accusing the PM of lying about Clark being her husband?????

  19. OnceWasTim 21


    “I don’t know what motivated du Plessis-Allan to wake up and use her mighty privilege to fuel contempt for our Pacific neighbours and friends.”

    I think maybe I do. Waking up next to a Soper for a start!

  20. Booker 22

    So, Fonterra: record losses. Synlait: record profits – https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@pro/2018/09/19/243562/synlait-milk-doubles-annual-profit

    Even more reason to overhaul Fonterra.

    • SaveNZ 22.1

      Yes by going back to a co operative model for the farmers not the fat cat corporate at the trough, with bad global investments and little national innovative strategy model disguised as a co op.

      The first loss, in it’s history speaks volumes where they went wrong.

  21. Dennis Frank 23

    Massey University VC conspiracy theory in the news now… “Massey University Politics Society treasurer and spokesman Michael Curtis said … “I guess these emails confirm there was some sort of conspiracy going on in the background to have [Brash] shut down even before the security threat materialised.”

    “A line in one of Thomas’s emails lists an option for university action if Brash could not be banned. It states: “Modify our facilities usage and funding to student groups to include agreement to align to universities values.” That concerned Curtis. “Personally, on initial reading … that to me sounds slightly concerning. I mean, a university is going to have a set of values and not everyone is going to align with that. There’s obviously going to be debate and discussion over those values.”

    “I feel like ensuring only speakers of like-minded values come to a university seems to me like … a very subtle way of the university being able to dictate who they want to bring onto campus. That’s just my reading of it… These emails do reveal that there was quite a conspiracy to shut Don Brash out and that has obviously affected the club’s ability to operate.”

    “Acting Massey University Students’ Association president Ngahuia Kirton said she was disappointed Thomas appeared to have misled students and staff about the decision to prevent Brash speaking. “Of the utmost concern to MUSA is the reported questioning in these emails by the [vice-chancellor] of whether funding of clubs and societies and/or the student association can be restricted as a means of control in such situations.””

    “Kirton said reference to withdrawal of facilities, and re-writing university policy to enable greater restrictions raises questions about the direction senior leadership at Massey wants to take in matters concerning the student voice. She said the MUSA executive want the Massey council to clarify its stance on funding of independent student associations in light of the Thomas’ comments, “The MUSA executive would like to clearly state that it has no confidence in Massey University vice-chancellor Jan Thomas.””

    “The New Zealand Union of Students’ Associations was outraged the vice-chancellor threatened to cut funding to a students’ association due to actions they disagreed with. “We should be able to have robust debate on campus with people we disagree with, including our university leaders,” president Jonathan Gee said. “But to consider cutting funding to a group that disagrees with your actions is just foul play.” NZUSA said the vice-chancellor broke the trust of staff and students by assuring them her main consideration in preventing Brash from speaking was security.

    • Muttonbird 23.1

      Jonathan Gee is not correct when he says, “But to consider cutting funding to a group that disagrees with your actions…”

      The way I read it Thomas wasn’t looking to cut funding to a group she disagrees with. She was looking for a mechanism (moving forward) with which to ensure student activities on campus adhered to the University’s values (and rules).

      I reckon all institutions have some sort of contract employees or students have to sign about not behaviour and not bringing the institution into disrepute.

      In this case Thomas is looking for ways for the University to respect its (as she calls it) Treaty-led charter. Bringing a deliberately divisive and comical figure like Don Brash on campus clearly goes against that charter because Don Brash wishes to dilute and renege on the Treaty of Waitangi.

      • greywarshark 23.1.1

        Thanks Muttonbird for a reality based opinion that seems correctly interprets the thinking on the uni.

      • Dennis Frank 23.1.2

        Not a direct threat to cut student club funding – just a suggestion that the University modify its club funding policy to require adherence to University values.

        So she was suggesting that the University coerce students into not using their right of freedom of speech & expression of opinions. She wants only opinions that won’t offend campus Maori folk apparently. I’d be surprised if the University Council were to approve a race-based discrimination policy. People would think Massey got taken over by racists. The resulting uproar throughout Aotearoa would dwarf the earlier one!

        • Muttonbird

          If you are talking about the university having a code of conduct where racist views aren’t welcome, that just aligns with the rest of every single work place and place of learning in the country.

          That a university is a place for debate much like parliament doesn’t qualify it to be exempt from basic rules against discrimination. After all these are still young people. Also parliamentary rules are very strict and robust so it’s a good exercise for this university and others to have this tested.

          • Dennis Frank

            Yeah, Brash ought to turn up, do his thing without calling Maori an inferior race, and leave it to anyone who doesn’t like what he said to try & figure out if he used hate speech, and then initiate a prosecution. As long as he didn’t say he hated anyone, the court will decide he didn’t use hate speech. We need to eliminate the puerile behaviour.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 23.1.3

        It would be extremely disappointing if Massey University’s second experiment with a woman VC (Professor Jan Thomas) ends badly. If it does then the failure should be owned by Massey’s council and the senior ‘leadership’ team. Every new VC is an ‘experiment’, and the right conditions will improve the chances of success.

        In 2003 Massey appointed Prof. Judith Kinnear (another Aussie) as the first woman VC of a NZ university. She was a good choice, but fell out with Massey’s Chancellor and some of the SLT, leading to council disunity and embarrassing reversals of management decisions.

        When Kinnear’s successor (Steve Maharey, VC 2008-2016) stepped down, Prof. Thomas was selected as his replacement. In 2017 Thomas stated a wish to reverse the unsustainable erosion of Massey’s budget surpluses, with the idea of using projected surpluses to back winners and further develop a distinctive Massey brand in agri-food businesses (including the highly-ranked BVSc programme), the Food Hub, etc.

        An inevitable consequence of this strategy was to shed staff and plan to restructure teaching programmes to meet budget surplus targets. Massey management has a penchant for restructuring (e.g. VC McWha’s ‘repositioning project‘ and subsequent “accelerated staff turnover” initiatives). Thomas has lost the support of some staff who remember the consequences of those schemes, and the further loss of staff/student confidence in the VC over the Brash barring has been discussed by a recent addition to the SLT, Prof. Chris Gallivan.


        Soimun Bridges is now suggesting that Thomas’ Brash decisions are sackable offenses, and, while university governance should be free of political interference, if the CEO of an agriculture-friendly institution such as Massey can’t count on National support…

        • greywarshark

          That’s a good coverage Drowsy. I am interested in why much of Humanities seems to have been given the push. Who was responsible for that?

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Sorry Grey, I don’t know. There is a general (worldwide) push for academics to justify their existence by focusing on solving ‘real world’ problems, boosting economic outputs and business profitability, etc.

            While more post-secondary students have been directed into tertiary (and specifically university) study, public (government) financial contributions per student may not have not kept up, leaving NZ universities facing some hard decisions about their degree programmes, trying to pick winners, promoting fields of ‘obvious’ utility, etc., etc.

            I’m one of the lucky students who completed their university studies before serious fees and the student loans scheme were introduced – it was possible to save money, or at least break even, with a modest part-time job, holiday jobs and/or study bursaries.

            Guess we can’t go back to free university study at given current levels of participation and taxation.

            “Further investigation of changes in real per student expenditures in tertiary education over time, controlling for shifts in the mix of programmes funded, would be useful.”


  22. Ffloyd 24

    If I were Jacinda I would steer clear of Jesse Mulligan. I thought the Project was a ligntweight general entertainment programme. Occasionally he uses it to push his agenda. Tonight he showed his sniping bias. Will be avoiding this show in future.

  23. georgecom 25

    I had a chuckle tonight when Bridges suggested the Greens are more the Camouflage Party than the Green Party. Not really so, not that accurate, but a good line nonetheless.

  24. Ankerrawshark 26

    Yes Floyd. Couldn’t agree more than about Jesse on the project. The focus is on sufferage day and he takes a swipe at jacinda re $100000 spent paying out the it guy saying it could have gone to woman’s refuge……as if it worked like that. Coalition already increased money for refuge etc………what a dick he is.

    Fuck it’s unrelenting from the idiotic msm at the moment

  25. eco maori 27

    Kia ora The Am Show even don brash gave shonky a big fail for his nine years as PM Mark.
    It’s cool to see North & South Korea doing the intelligent thing Making PEACE AND NOT WAR.
    Who’s gravy train was meth testing Eco know who was sucking in that money what a sham .
    Willy got what he and his m8 deserve .
    Loyd global warming we sit on our hand’s mean while these wealthy people are Raging wars on te people and manipulating OUR Society to carry on burning carbon how THICK is that.
    Jame’s Marshel has a good idear to care more for our elderly everyone on Papatuanuku should do this more often for humanity check on your elderly neighbors
    nicky national gave tax cuts to the people the wealthy benefited from that and raised GST TAX to % 15 sold the silverware of Aotearoa to the wealthy mean while we have people under the bridge all the state services have been starved of money is there a magic wand that’s going to make the funding shortages fall out of the sky no so the people who can afford to pay more tax should pay more tax. national has proven that cutting budgets of state organization’s get’s a big fail one can not run a country on the same principles as a business they are two different beast the business model only works if you want all the money to flow to the top which is what has happened in the last 9 years . Ka kite ano

  26. eco maori 28

    I would not trust the sandflys to run a toilet you see the keep trying to push Eco Maori buttions and everytime they push they get shit splashed in there faces now our native birds have more intellergince that the whole lot of them they will learn that after 2 or 3 fail’s move on they are wrong but not the godsquad they are to perfect to be wrong ana to kai muppets ka kite ano P.S The positive thing Eco get’s is my Mana increase everyday ka pai

  27. eco maori 30

    You see the sandflys are breaching Eco Maori Civil Right’s every day of the week and a lot of people know that’s is going down .
    I believe in God just my God does not think its is ok to break the law’s of the land just because they go to church on Sundays . If a person care’s for his whano and has not hurt anyone and treats everyone who deserves to be treated with respect respectfully .
    Well what would YOU class that human being AS .
    I say that all CHURCH people in Eco Maori view should be doing all they can to better human kinds lot that would start with helping the needy in YOUR country .
    Not going around trying to recruit little old ladies or anyone into your Church and dragging them away from there great tangata whenua cultures because it’s different to there’s thats what Eco Maori see happening all the time Ka kite ano link below.

  28. eco maori 31

    Eco Maori see this phenomenon happening at the minute and through out OUR history people in powerful positions .
    Well when they are losing popularity its time for a distraction away from them losing power so they or there minders CREATE THE DISTRACTION trump is doing this on a weekly basis that move will be in the pollies people in power’s emergency HAND BOOK when one is in the shit create a distraction and it does not matter to these people in power weather there distraction cost lives or causes harm to millions so long as they can cling to power . Eco Maori could give you NAME’S but know you will beable to see this phenomenon If you look hard enough . enough said ka kite ano

  29. eco maori 33

    I will name one who tried the distraction move and it burnt his ass bill boy
    Ka kite ano

  30. eco maori 34

    Eco dedercates this song to my tipuna’s

  31. eco maori 35

    Kai pai Matamata people for taking a big interest in Maori Te reo classes it’s a beautiful language & a loving careing culture Kia kaha ka kite ano link is below


  32. eco maori 36

    To the sandfly’s they are like little children ana to kai

  33. eco maori 37

    That’s was quite easy to see that our business confidence surveys we being massaged/minuplated used to try and put a dent in our New Coalition Governments Mana in the end the truth always shines through the bullshit the bank shonky work’s for the ANZ was the worsted offender Eco is good at smelling a rat Kia Kaha tangata OUR new Government need our Tau toko all the time because the neo libreals are dirty———— we need to protect all OUR mokopuna’s futures Ka pai link is below ka kite ano


  34. eco maori 38

    You know what the GREAT BOOK THE ART OF WAR say’s if the General is at fault well they have to be disciplined it’s sad but it matter’s not weather you are Tangata whenua Pacifica European Asian African the law still applies in Eco Maori’s view’s on reality link is below ka kite ano P.S I’M right against WAR this book is one of the best strategist one can find on Papatuanuku at the minute for all situation’s .


  35. eco maori 39

    Here is the reason why our Ausse cousin have had there Prime Minsters rolled so many time’s it’s rupert murdoch he has distorted Democracy in Australia & Britain this man need to be put in line he has to much influnce around Papatuanuku I also would say he is suppressing Te Tangata Whenua of Australia he is a neo libreal capitalist Climate change denier and need to be hog tied with law’s made to split his media empire . I have not had time to do the research but I will bet he has a big stake in Aotearoa media to I can tell by the way our reporter’s have been behaving that someone has been bulling them into reporting the news in a pro neo libreal capitalist way when some clearly like our left leaning Coalition Government ANA TO KAI rupert .
    Link is below ka kite ano . P.S Eco is fear less


  36. eco maori 40

    Kia ora Newshub Well simon we know how national would have handled the Meka Whaitiri incident you would have covered it up like you did with the tod barclay issues with his staff that is a bigger incident because laws were made with his vote that should not have been made in my view.
    Anmials should be treated humanly and the out come of the bad behavior of that company is good that will help people clean up there ACT.
    Eco does not beleve in LUCK or gambling if the state treat’s one fairly one makes there own luck and the big players cheat enough said.
    I have a lot of respect for Michael Cullen if it was not for his time as finance minister we would be broke many thank’s and a tax on the wealthy is what is need in Aotearoa at the minute
    Wow that’s a lot of lambs from one ewe 4 our tailing % would climb with her lambing rate
    that is what has kept our sheep farmer waka’s afloat for the last 30 years increased lambing rates . Can you see how humane Aotearoa farming practices are conclusion one can not compare other country’s farming practices to OUR full stop a small % let us down on some thing’s .
    Food rescue city harvest is a awesome thing John and Phillis many thanks from Eco Maori its a better system than people having to dumpster diving as there could be un seen problem.
    Ka kite ano

  37. eco maori 41

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild Mulls & Storm with the boxing the threat is the headbutt and the———-
    Hope the Rugby guys can get there steam up over te neighbors .
    The hard dad was my wife lol
    Bastido the French Rugby player had a bad moment my moment yesterday was calculated and controled
    Yes its cool that North & South Korea are bidding for the Olympics ka pai Ka kite ano

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