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Open mike 19/07/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 19th, 2013 - 207 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

207 comments on “Open mike 19/07/2013”

  1. r0b 1

    Helen Kelly tweeted last night:

    on @NzMorningReport just after 8am tomorrow. New OIA releases on ERA changes – guess what – changes will drive wages down.

    Listen out for it…

    • big bruv 1.1


      So once again I will ask if Kelly will apologise when what she suggests does not come to pass?

      Let’s just say that I will not be holding my breath given her less than accurate predictions in the past. Mind you, Kelly has never let a little thing like the truth get in the way of her political statements.

      • Paul 1.1.1

        And will you apologise to her if user prediction is true?
        You really are quite am net resting character. No comment about potential wage drops for New Zealanders. Simply an insult and a distraction.
        Stick to the issue. Obviously you are comfortable with pay rates declining. Correct?

        • big bruv

          “Pay rates declining” ?

          Pay rates are increasing Paul, but hey, don’t let the truth get in the way of your politics.

          I often read or hear how there are “no jobs”, just this month the company that I work for advertised an unskilled job in Auckland central, $15.50 an hour, overtime available if the employee wanted it and a uniform supplied. Plus there is the opportunity to advance in the company to a position where many of our employees earn in excess of $100,000.

          The number of applications we had for that job was……….one.

          • Saarbo

            What is the work bb?

            • big bruv

              The position has been filled by a new arrival to the country. The nature of the work could be broadly be described as cleaning.

              • Saarbo

                Something doesn’t sound right regarding 1 applicant, Im surprised.

                Personally $15.50 is a disgusting pay rate by the way BB, its under the Living Wage…you are essentially being subsidised by your workers. The lowest paid in my business is $18 per hour plus 3% commision on sales…its fair to say that I have very low staff turnover. That might be the 1st place to start.

                • Rosie

                  Can I come work for you Saarbo?

                • Keith Ross

                  year something does not sound right . considering that thousands line up for jobs at supermarkets as an example. I think that this is just another Troll ,sure I bet that from there, 15.50 an hour,to over 100 000$ rings true. How long does it take to get up the ladder? 300 years?

              • vto

                I always find this very very interesting big bruv. Truly curious. Jobs are advertised and people would rather not take them. Why is that? The old “its too easy on the dole” line doesn’t cut it, in many ways, and I think there are other reasons.

                Such as – $15.50 per hour. How does a man support a family in Auckland on that? That is one issue – that pay rates cost an employer less than it would cost an employer to keep a slave.

                Another imo is that people are just completely fucked off with the system and the rich getting richer situation. Many people just don’t give a shit about commerce, work, economy, the whole money merry-go-round. They have been shafted by the system too much and too often. Laid off, told to get more productive, told to pul their finger out. They see $15.50 as an insult. They see the banks making record profits every year. They get labelled and abused by this National government and Paula Bennett.

                So they give the lot of you the big fuck-off middle finger.

                Good for them. Suck on it I say.

                • big bruv

                  “Another imo is that people are just completely fucked off with the system and the rich getting richer situation”

                  In other words those same losers want what other have without having to do any work for it.

                  That sums up the average Labour/Mana/Green voter to me.

                  • felix

                    You remind me of Cam Slater, physically a grown man but mentally still regurgitating his father’s opinions, drummed into him as a child.

                    • Morrissey

                      You’ll have to wait a while for his witless response, felix: he’s been banned for a week.

                    • felix

                      Oh bugger. Do you think you could do it for him this one time? It usually just involves ignoring the comment he’s replying to and ranting about unions and proposing fascism as a solution to every problem he imagines.

              • North

                Not good enough Big Bruv.

                One applicant for a $15.50 an hour job broadly in the nature of cleaning? Hahahahahaha !

                What, scrubbing down the Harbour Bridge with a toothbrush ?

                Utter Bullshit !

                • McFlock

                  He. At least it would be secure work for the next few decades 🙂

                  I reckon the key is BB’s use of the term “broadly described”… polishing his schlong for $15.50 an hour?

                  • North

                    Polish the Big Bruv schlong ? We’re not talking something akin to microsurgery here McF.

                    There wouldn’t be a need for overtime on that job for a start and the rate would need to be somewhat grander than 15% above the legal minimum. Danger and nausea money and all that.

                    No, I suspect the Harbour Bridge sinecure would be 24 hour call-out, maximum engagement 2 hours at a time, no safety harness. One’s estate liable to replace the uniform and the toothbrush fair wear and tear no excuse.

                    Just joshing Big Bruv. I agree, we don’t know how lucky we are here in ShonKey Python’s Flying Fuck Circus !

                    • big bruv

                      Goodness me North, so what you are saying is that a bludger (am I talking about you?) should not have to get off their idle backside for $15.50 an hour?

                      What we should have done is offer the job to a couple of hundred of the idle parasites and bludgers who frequent this blog if only to then be able to inform WINZ that they turned down the work and then hope that those same bludgers have their benefit cut or cancelled.

                    • Arfamo

                      Broadly in the nature of cleaning” and only 1 applicant? What’s the reason your job description is so warm and fuzzy? What exactly are the duties involved? Washing dead bodies?

                    • felix

                      Arfamo, I suspect working for big bruv would involve quite a few activities “broadly in the nature of cleaning”.

                      Licking big bruv’s arse for a start.

                      All imaginary though of course, big bruv doesn’t actually have a business or a job.

              • felix

                “The position has been filled by a new arrival to the country.”

                Translation: No kiwi was interested in forfeiting all their workplace rights for the privilege of being bullied by a sociopath for minimum wage.

          • framu

            “an unskilled job in Auckland central, $15.50 an hour, overtime available if the employee wanted it and a uniform supplied. Plus there is the opportunity to advance in the company to a position where many of our employees earn in excess of $100,000.”

            yeah – thats highly believable

            not saying its BS just yet – but going from 15.50 per hour to 100k (im guessing per year) sounds an aweful lot like “something i just made up”

            thats like a 200%+ wage rise

            • Draco T Bastard

              not saying its BS just yet – but going from 15.50 per hour to 100k (im guessing per year) sounds an aweful lot like “something i just made up”

              No, you can do that at McDonald’s and other places. It’s just that so few actually do and the simple fact of the matter is that it’s impossible for everyone to get that type of income.

              High incomes for the few are paid for by low incomes for the many.

          • freedom

            a cleaning job vacancy in central AK for $15.50 an hour and only one reply? I call bullshit!
            Where and when was it advertised?

            • felix

              Reading between the lines I’d guess it was cleaning in a brothel.

              • handle

                and getting to 100k requires more than cleaning

              • Colonial Viper

                Or a bank. Oh yeah, banks raping and pillaging their way through our society, sucking up money out of ordinary communities and siphoning it across to Australia at prodigious rates.

          • Rosetinted

            Start at $15.50 an hour – ambition to get salary of a professional even become PM. Or I liked the company so much I bought it! The wonderful dream of social mobility and endless opportunity if you work hard and smart. What a joke.

            There was a tv piece done on the work of the women cleaners coming from South Auckland. How they would get up in the late hours of the night and travel to the job for a few hours. Then their partners would get up and feed the children and send the school age ones off and then go to work themselves. Then the mother would get home and look after the little ones, and then have a cat nap. For a cleaning wage, to add to the low incomes brought home by their man. These days you don’t see much of that sort of stuff on tv as it isn’t commercial. Only managed reality shows where somebody wins something at the end get shown.

            You start on $15.50 and dream of getting to $25 per hour -$1,000 per week for a 40 hour week. And try and manage on the low wage being grateful to have that, but have hours dropped, extended, shifts changed, put on call, and if you get holiday pay, you find another short-term job for the duration so you can pay off some bill with it. What a life.

            ‘Many of our employees earn in excess of $100,000’ – how? Sounds like the stupid ads – Make $1,000 a week working at home! Doing what – addressing envelopes is given sometimes? Telemarketing? The employer takes the right to listen in to your phone calls including your private ones then, people should know that.

            Someone tried to run a flower selling cart locally, where you got paid on commission, no basic wage. They would finance it, you stayed there in all weathers, and at the end of the day of not achieving any sales of note, would go home having officially worked. There were moans because nobody wanted to do it. What a lazy lot, they’re not serious about wanting a job etc.

            • Jimmie

              It can happen:

              In 2001-03 I worked at BK’s earning $7.70 an hour for 30 hours of shift work. ( I was 25 at the time and BK’s was a career change from farming)
              Within 10 years (and changing 4-5 jobs) we became self employed back in the dairy industry with an after tax (and drawings) profit averaging around 80-150K a year. (And employing several staff)

              I had no secret talent just worked hard and took opportunities that came my way – also a good supportive missus was a great help.

              So by the left’s definition in 2001 I was a trampled on low wage worker being exploited by big business. By 2011 I would be considered to be a rich prick trampling on the underclass and out of touch with reality (An evil 1%er)

              But I was still the same person in 2011 I was in 2001.

              This is why Labour and the left are increasingly seen as irrelevant. Class war where the evil rich tread on the righteous poor is an out of date marxist philosophy. The actual inequality is motivated folk vs unmotivated folk.

              Unless you have a physical disability or mental illness there is nothing stopping any poor person from advancing their social position through the avenues of upskilling and hard work and seizing opportunities when they come your way.

              The only barrier to overcome is the lack of self motivation.

              You can argue all sorts of academic crap about social barriers which keep the poor poor, but these are just insults telling the poor that they can never change unless they have a helping hand from dear nanny state.

              • karol

                Of course Jimmie, there’s a load of 1%er jobs just waiting for all motivated enough to go for them. And even more relevant, there’s enough jobs for all those who desire a living wage just waiting there, if only they were all motivated enough.

                Take no notice of stories of queues of people for supermarket jobs, or those stories of people who have tried endlessly to get jobs with not success. And also take no notice of all those stories about the working poor – all just “marxist” propaganda!

              • Draco T Bastard

                Unless you have a physical disability or mental illness there is nothing stopping any poor person from advancing their social position through the avenues of upskilling and hard work and seizing opportunities when they come your way.

                Of course there is, not everybody can be rich and so saying that everyone can be is lying.

                The only barrier to overcome is the lack of self motivation.

                The biggest barrier is the rich protecting themselves through government legislation such as decreasing taxes on themselves while increasing taxes on the poor, taking away support so that people can’t do the training and, of course, reforming the welfare system so that people can be kicked off easier.

                You can argue all sorts of academic crap about social barriers which keep the poor poor, but these are just insults telling the poor that they can never change unless they have a helping hand from dear nanny state.

                People do need to be supported and have access to the resources that they need to succeed. Without that then they cannot do it and the capitalist system is all about taking those resources and putting them in the control of the few and thus ensuring that the poor cannot get ahead.

                • Jimmie

                  Of course there is, not everybody can be rich and so saying that everyone can be is lying.

                  Depends on how you define rich?

                  I would define it as thus: It is possible for anyone with the right motivation to better themselves within the current society that is New Zealand.

                  Doesn’t matter if you are talking going from a job earning $14/hr to $20/hr or from $40K/year to 80K/year.

                  Support for people down on their luck can be helpful for a time (just like crutches can be helpful after a broken leg) however if they start relying on the support they end up losing any motivation they once had and start seeing the support as their livelihood.

                  Again your arguments about tax aren’t relevant.

                  Not many folks on the benefit say to themselves I’m not going to get a job because fat cats don’t pay enough tax. Doesn’t enter the equation.

                  What we need is an education/social system that encourages motivated and self reliant school leavers who have confidence to aim to better themselves over the course of their adult lives.

                  Part of this would be including compulsory life & budgeting skills, basic business studies, and even free driver’s licence training at high school.

                  Perhaps throw in a number of case studies on successful entrepreneurs and business folk to help show school leavers that they can punch above their weight if they wish to.

                  • Rosetinted

                    Also Jimmie I think that the skills they need are the ability to assess their skills and personality and make changes where needed and know their strengths. Then have confidence and ask for more than they expect to get.

                    Of course it would help if they could talk to employers who would commit to them and not try to rip them off with 89 days and drop or get contractors in or restructure and cut the jobs in half and make the workers reapply for more working hours and less hourly rate. All these stand in the way of becoming well off. And then it depends what type of business you are in, they aren’t all equal.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    I would define it as thus: It is possible for anyone with the right motivation to better themselves within the current society that is New Zealand.

                    Yep, the motivation to rip off everybody else which is what the dead weight of profit is. Most people aren’t motivated by that and that’s why the rich manage to get richer – everybody else doesn’t understand their motivation and greed.

                    Not many folks on the benefit say to themselves I’m not going to get a job because fat cats don’t pay enough tax.

                    The fat cats are the ones preventing them getting a job.

                    What we need is an education/social system that encourages motivated and self reliant school leavers who have confidence to aim to better themselves over the course of their adult lives.

                    We do – like the two I overheard talking on the bus the other day who have every intention of leaving NZ once they’ve got their qualifications. Motivated to learn and encouraged to leave due to a system that only rewards the rich.

                    • Rosetinted

                      I think that many don’t realise that there are less and less jobs for highly educated, bright young people who could be building up our status and a well interlocked variety of business and enterprise.
                      It’s part of the smug apathy that pervades this country. And please feel free to prove me wrong – but I think the support for Key shows that there are large numbers of people who are managing individually and are just sleep-walking past their adult responsibilities of thinking about the best way for their country to be run as part of the duty of a citizen of a democracy.

                      Because the business people and those who get to government don’t see that as necessary. They constantly import what they want and use NZs as a labour pool to dip into when they want, with no planning for continuous business with long-term experienced capable employees. They pretend that they are really good at business when in fact most can’t manage to keep going unless their meal of labour meat isn’t cut up first on the plate and then spoon fed to them. In fact they aren’t receiving overt subsidies, but the reducing employee numbers and wages and conditions is a covert subsidy.

                      And many are shit managers, I don’t know where they do their training but it is possible that they are exposed to good ideas while studying but then revert to a lazy default approach because it’s common amongst their community.

                      We keep hearing about stupid decisions, the inefficient ways in which businesses are run, many are just teetering on the edge of a big problem through badly managed IT for instance. Novopay is just the noticeable part of the iceberg. And their choice of IT programs and the huge amount of investment in machinery and people that are then under-utilised is startling.

              • North

                Jimmie…….for fuck’s sake man. It can happen…….it can happen. Whatever. It could happen also that the mad showboat potato bitch Heki Pirau Parata get a brain !

                What dorks you right wing wankers are ! That “can happen……” bullshit is as much to do with reality in New Zealand today as Barack Obama and George Dubya Bush availing marriage equality and tying the knot at Sorrento in Cornwall Park.

                Get a life you heartless mouthy little fuckwit ! And grab a pair of mocassins from out South Auckland ways and trying walking in ’em.

                • big bruv


                  Just a tip. If you are to reply using the same abusive language as North has used then you will be banned.

                  I know that does not seem fair but then you have to realise where you are posting your comments and the inherent bias and hypocrisy of all left wingers.

                  • Jimmie

                    Thats fine bb. Subtlety is a wonderful thing….

                    • felix

                      Hey Jimmie, don’t hold your breath waiting for big blouse to furnish you with examples of people who have been banned from The Standard for their language.

                      It has never happened, ever.

                • Jimmie

                  Huh? What has two gay (news to me) presidents got to do with what I posted?

                  I was replying to Rosetinted who basically said it was impossible to go from a low paying/skilled job to a rich (prick’s) job.

                  I was saying that it is possible – I have walked that road myself as I stated.

                  How this has anything to Parata’s brain or two gay Presidents is beyond me.

                  • North

                    So ya got stoned and ya missed it Jimmie. Onya bro’ !

                  • Rosetinted

                    Hey Jimmie I see that you have gone from low to wow. Congrats. Now set it up that it can be repeated, ie scientifically proven. And then show how often that can happen before the opportunities reach saturation.

                    Show others how to do it Jimmie. Don’t be the exception that proves the rule please. Give out the recipe.

                    And by the way when did this happen to you – the rise I mean? And are you still in that happy higher income bracket?

                    • Jimmie

                      The recipe isn’t hard – just what I have said before.

                      The one thing you can’t accept is that if your current situation in unsatisfactory that you can do nothing to change it. If you have fallen into this hole then you will never do well.

                      We are still doing ok – chasing extra $$$ isn’t our main motivation – mainly learning to get ahead and looking for opportunities, and enjoying what we do. If we end up earning more then that is a bonus.

                    • Jimmie

                      A good example of motivation is a old guy I used to know who was the CEO of Air NZ Operations in Aussie.

                      After he retired he lived in Tauranga and got a job working the graveyard shift at a service station.

                      Didn’t do it for the $$$ (didn’t need them) just enjoyed having a working routine and interacting with the public and ensuring that the store was well presented after his shifts ended.

                      Thats what I call self motivated.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      That guy has probably been in continuous employment since he was 16 years old.

                      Not hard for people to get good work habits and good self esteem in that case. Today, we’re throwing our young people away.

              • bad12

                Yawn another Sir(spit) bob Jones type, i became a zillionaire from nothing therefore anyone else who cannot become a zillionaire is a lazy bludger,

                Jimmie, provide us a breakdown of the steps you took from burger flipper to barnyard baron, give us a good financial breakdown of earnings,jobs,rent paid etc, along with loans sought and gained and insider knowledge and help you think got you to the point of the barnyard barony…

                • Rosetinted

                  And who looked after your children while you were putting in all these hours? Or weren’t you in that situation where you have these large individual responsibilities for the vulnerable who are our future citizens. That is one reason why women or single fathers have trouble making money and getting on in the working world, and to them $$$ are important.

                  Doing work as a paid worker when you have enough income or a volunteer unpaid worker, is a personal decision to be involved and busy, but that is different from people having to get their daily living, and also try to meet the needs of children.

                  • Jimmie

                    No children yet (Will likely be in the next couple of years) My better half and I both contribute towards our situation – she used to work caring for disable folk and when we went self employed put in a big effort to help us get ahead.

                    I agree with you about it being hard for single parents to get ahead however I would suggest that with a bit of forethought many single parents could avoid or delay being put in a situation where they are single parents.

                    There are mistakes and relationship breakdowns that happen however young folk sometimes don’t make wise choices in this area which have long term consequences.

                    • Rosetinted

                      If people sat down and logically thought out the future and the best way to manage it in a thoughtful intelligent way, we wouldn’t have wars would we? That’s an ironic question, by the way.

                      We work on emotion not rationality, studies have been done on that, . The impulse to attract a mate, find out about the opposite gender, find out what sex is, the hormonal drive is from the body and brain that grows breasts, deepens voices, grows muscles, enlarges penises, all without rational thought from you or I or anyone’s permission.

                      Sex happens. Get over it, and stop beating young people around the head and other parts, especially women who aren’t calculating enough or wise or strong-minded enough to forego it and delay their experience as young people. If we could just encourage delay, it would be so much better for all. But human curiosity, peer pressure are strong and the power of passion is unexpected, and society’s encouragement of alcohol which the authorities regard as a good little tax earner, and then condemn the over-users, is bad for clear thinking and control. There are a lot of societal effects on the young, and affect the baby statistics.

                • Jimmie

                  Though I presume you are trying to wind me up – I will give you a bite.

                  Please note that I’m just trying to answer your question:

                  June-August 2001 Burger flipper at BK’s. Was the only job I could find after leaving a 6 & 1/2 year career in dairy farming. (7.70/hr) Was very good for budgeting – I stopped wasting all my $$$ from payday to payday as I had little spare $$.

                  August 2001 was offered a partial promotion by BK’s to hourly manager (Around 12 hours a week at 9.90/hr and the rest at 7.70/hr.)

                  In April 2002 was offered an assistant manager’s job at another BK’s store. Salary of 24K for 50 hrs work/week (Not a huge salary – but an improvement)

                  June 2002 applied for and accepted a job as a mobile service station manager with an oil company – after training was on a salary of around $32K

                  Was sent to Gisborne on a temporary assignment for the service station that stretched from 6 weeks to 13 months. Had all living costs paid for so was able to save around 10-11K during this time.

                  Around 2003 used this 11K to purchase a rental investment house in Palmy.
                  Also at this time I was transferred to the Wellington region also running gas stations.

                  In 2004 I left the oil company as I had applied to join the NZ Police – worked two part time jobs in a plastic factory (22/hr) and another gas station (15/hr) while I waited to be called up. Also we sold our house and netted around $35K from the sale.

                  In 2005 I joined the Police (50K)and we bought a bare 5 acre block of land in the Manawatu. Over the next 3 years we managed to finance a transportable home on the block, fence it, and develop it.

                  In 2008, we decided to sell our block and try our hand at dairy farming. Sold in March 2008 and netted around 100K. (We used most of this as seed capital when we went into dairying)

                  At the time we applied for and were accepted for Contract Milking farm job at a low rate but helped us get our foot in the door being self employed. (Net profit around 25-30K)

                  After a year we applied for a LO sharemilking position down south. Worked there for two years Net profits for both years approx $75K & $140K.

                  Then two years ago we applied for and were accepted for a sharemilking equity position in the north island where we are now. earning approx $100K per year.

                  When developing our lifestyle block in addition to holding down two full time jobs we both worked many spare hours developing our block – (were mortgaged up to our eyeballs)
                  When farming CM & LO worked an average 65-70 hours per week.
                  Have had several nice holidays overseas and have enjoyed the satisfaction of providing employment for several employees.

                  As to the future we are gypsies at heart and chances are this time next year we may be doing something completely different.
                  No secondary quals
                  Did complete two polytech courses in basic house building and Diploma of Ag from Massey.

                  Hopefully this answers your question.

                  • Rosetinted

                    Thanks Jimmie
                    That’s really interesting, and the hops to each higher spot are good. I know of a couple who could have done this but the man got caught up in excessive social drinking and without him realising it, became an alcoholic but constantly denied it, all the time making errors in his job and ending up losing it. But he was too much in denial to take curative measures for his alcoholism.

                    Otherwise he might have been able to follow your path. The way that alcohol has rotted the heart out of many people, and the country may have been documented if not it should be.

                    As for people who might have worked on farms and saved up to become share milkers, they are now being replaced by cheap labour, Filipinos apparently as mentioned on the blog today. The farms are being bought at inflated prices on leveraged finance and then can be sold right out of NZ ownership with absentee landlords. You have done well climbing up the service ladder, and getting training through a takeaway chain is of value, so you have seized the chance that was there for you. But remember in each move, there was only you doing it, one individual. The same pattern cannot be followed for the mass of unemployed, there aren’t thousands of jobs from your path of mobility. And the alternative paths are closing, with imported labour at below market rates, reducing the work opportunities even more.

                    • Jimmie

                      In relation to farm staff – much of the reason for employing imported labour is a frustration at the poor quality candidates who are NZ born. (Especially the male variety)
                      I personally haven’t employed any foreign staff however it can get frustrating when you advertise a farm position (For our staff a salary of around $40-45K + free accommodation in return for 5 & 1/3 work days/week) and you get say 15 applicants.
                      (Our actual experience 2 months ago)

                      Of the 15 applicants do I chose the guy who says he only smoke legal highs now because he gave up cannabis 6 months ago, or the guy who says he is hoping to get his licence back after being done for DIC, or the guy who says that he doesn’t hit cows unless they piss him off?
                      What about the one who only wanted to know about the pay on offer and moaned about doing any work?

                      And I won’t mention the lovely father who rang up on behalf of his son and stated that he himself was a farmer and that I’d better offer his teenage son the job and a big pay packet or he would cause trouble.

                      In the end we interviewed two girls who were potentially suitable and employed one of them – very happy with her.

                      A principle that I have held all my working life in that if you personally have a work ethic that states that in what ever position you are you work to a level that is not perfection but is ‘above average’ then you will stand out and will receive ongoing improvements.

                      For example when I worked at BK’s during the evening shift when it got quiet I would go around on my hands and knees polishing all the stainless steel table stands (theoretically part of my job) while the other staff were outside smoking, riding on skateboards, and generally fooling around.

                      When I got offered a promotion after 3 months when other staff had been there 2 years and were offered nothing, to me it proved the stand out principle to me and i have kept it ever since.

            • big bruv

              I am surprised (OK…I’m not really surprised given this is the Standard) that so many of you feel threatened by the truth.

              At least one of two of you were brave enough to admit to your communist roots and trot out the stupid “living wage” bollocks but then that is not a surprise either.

              I know that you are not keen on the lies of the left being exposed but the fact remains that for an unskilled job the rate of pay is better than fair, plus the position does offer the chance of promotion.

              I suspect that one of two of you are simply clutching at straws, you seem to be of the opinion that if you shout “there are no jobs” loud and long enough somebody might hear.
              The news on that score is all bad for you lot I am afraid. The public are not buying it, the voters are not buying it and the tax payers have had enough of paying for the idle and the lazy.

              • Santi

                You’re wrong big bruv. David Shearer will show Labour’s plans to make us richer and the election will be won. Just wait for the leader.

                David Shearer is as strong as the great Helen Clark. Not everybody can see it, but it is only a matter of time and patience.

                Come on David Shearer, make New Zealand proud.

              • muzza

                BB what you don’t understand is that those who control the capitalist systems, are in fact communists in the core, its what they are.

                Your belief that lefties are communists, while in some cases could be true, or have had the pretense in history of being true, but its only a cover for theft and corruption, being carried out by people whose core, lies in fascism!

                BB, YES, Santi, my goodness, the calibre is so low and pathetic, it really is!

                Get out more, travel the world, do anything it takes to realize, how insignificant you actually are, and expand yourself.

                Seriously you’re obviously not life experienced, your posts give away like dogs balls!

                • Santi


                • big bruv


                  They do say that the most arrogant people are also the most stupid. In your case that seems apt.

                  I spent years living overseas (not just travelling), only when you live, work and play in another continent can you really find out what it is like and how things are different to home.

                  What my experience taught me is that there is no such thing as poverty in NZ. What we do have is a section of our community who have been raised to expect everything handed to them on a plate. A succession of government (including the Nat’s until recent times) have chosen the easy option of giving he idle and the bludgers more money to keep then quiet. Of course the left are even more insidious, they actually implement policies designed to keep people down as they know that this is the only way to ensure they keep voting for a left wing government.

                  We also have a bloated and overly generous (to bludgers and parasites) welfare system, we reward people for the wrong behaviour (encouraging people to have kids for a living being possibly the worst example) and seem to have fallen into the stupid belief that nothing bad that happens to the lady and the idle is ever their fault.

                  If anybody sounds like they have zero life experience I would suggest it is you, only a person who has never spent any real time living overseas would make such an arrogant and stupid assumption, and only somebody who had never really seen the world would suggest that we have poverty in these shaky islands.

                  • muzza

                    Your comments betray you BB, living and working abroad does not allow you the breadth of experiences, that traveling, and putting yourself into positions which are far outside your comfort zones, meeting people, learning new cultures, and most importantly, learning about yourself, and where fit into the structures of the humanity, and where that ties into something much larger!

                    If you have in fact been abroad, and still are capable of the comments you post here, you are either a liar, or you suffer from some rather narrow minded self esteem issues which were formed in NZ, and have not been wrung out of you while away, either way the arrogance you’re looking for is in the mirror!

                    In any case, a decent human being needs not leave the country they were born in, to develop traits such as caring and kindness, lacking from your comments.

                    Instead you seek to demonize and belittle, what you likely no nothing about!

                    • big bruv


                      I am sorry to be the one to tell you but spending two years living inside the M25 and never venturing north of the Watford Gap does not constitute travelling. I appreciate that you may have felt outside your comfort zone but that still does not mean you have any real life experience.

                      Never mind, save your dollars and you may well put enough aside one day to visit a country where English is not the first language.

                    • muzza

                      Thanks for the confirmation of your lies BB, as if the handle you use was not already enough of a signal!

                  • Murray Olsen

                    I imagine that you may have lived in the 3rd world at some stage, in a secure expatriate compound, and shared prejudices with fellow expatriates and a few locals who would have loved to have been born somewhere else. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. I’ve some across plenty of Kiwis spouting the same crap as you overseas. Sooner or later, they start singing the praises of cheap prostitution. I always did what I could to avoid them.

                    • North

                      True MO. Some of the nastiest, know all-est, thickest fucks I’ve ever met have been expats en situ. Types who buy the shit that if you’re western and got bucks that sets you apart. And really…….it’s not too hard to have excess bucks when you’re living in Bandung. Paid in $US by the UN and all that.

                      Frequently on return home they suffer debilitating depression because they’re not $6 sultans anymore. Classic was the 8 year old son of some expats in Jakarta way back in mid-80s.

                      Walked in the house, clapped the hands, yelled the servant’s name…….she didn’t materialise. Angrily yelling the woman’s name repeatedly until she appeared. Cringing. I wanted to smack the little bastard in the head.

                      As karma would have it…….they come back to NZ. Intermediate school somewhere out East Auckland (south side of). Got smacked over first day by some poly boys, for his attitude. Good job ! Not really though because it was the parents. They had the opportunity to encourage their kid to avail a magnificent opportunity but, as $6 sultans they didn’t.

                      So don’t come your “I’m an expat Jack” bullshit round here Big Bruv and expect everyone to bow down. . Clearly you’ve learned nothing. Like the parents and the kid I mention. Sad !

                  • North

                    I think you’re a liar.

                • Rosetinted

                  It’s good of you to put time into replying to big bruv. But discussing his questions and trying to get some understanding from him about his bigoted ideas is a waste of time. You won’t get anywhere, won’t make any impression on the concreted carapace – CC instead of BB. You just encourage him to spout more of his stuff. /and on and on. The question is do any of these

              • Draco T Bastard

                I am surprised (OK…I’m not really surprised given this is the Standard) that so many of you feel threatened by the truth.

                The only people threatened by the truth happen to be the RWNJs as the facts continuously prove them wrong.

                • big bruv


                  Where are these facts you talk about? I think it was the late Christopher Hitchens who said “demanding that one believes untruths does not result in truthful outcomes”.

                  Given that you have never managed to furnish this blog with anything other than left wing propaganda, Labour party lies and bullshit I guess I should not expect anything by way of “proof” in any hurry.

                  It is no wonder that the public cannot relate to the Labour party these days.

                  • North

                    And what a pompous wee say-nothing homilie that was from “Christopher Hitchens”. If in fact he did say it. Who knows or cares.

                    In any event bad mistake to quote Hitchens. Former crazed commie idiot who jumped numerous fences over to neoliberalism when he found his narcissism insufficiently fed on the Left.

                    Where he’d been sorted out as a festering fraud.

                    YouTube the George Galloway v. Hitchens debate at some US university a couple of years ago. Hilarious !

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Given that you have never managed to furnish this blog with anything other than left wing propaganda…

                    That’s only what RWNJs call it – to everyone else it’s the facts. The facts that prove the RWNJs wrong the biggest fact of which is the GFC which proved their entire preferred economic system wrong.

              • North

                Troll ! Thick troll what’s worse. You really think we’re gonna buy your fetid ejaculate ?

                You confess fuckwittedness when you start the “Commie” bullshit.

                “Ceaucescu” to you brother !

                • big bruv


                  Given that you have already resorted to abuse means that you have lost the argument.

                  • North

                    Hehehehe !

                  • Murray Olsen

                    No, it doesn’t mean North has lost any bloody argument. It means that a reasonable person can’t describe you in any terms except those that would seem like abuse if used to describe a reasonable person.

                    Why should he/she dignify your crap anyway? You have not put forward a single reasonable argument. A bunch of chaotic prejudices masquerading as the halitosis of a fetid swamp creature pretending to be saying something is no argument at all.

                • Rosetinted

                  Don’t waste your firepower. It just makes BB feel important. He will never learn anything on TS because he doesn’t want to. He feeds off the blog for his superiority, his bulwark against the annoying b..rs who keep trying to change things and say that others aren’t getting a fair go.

                  Most of these guys and gals don’t bother coming here, but he gets off on telling people their ideas for change are stupid. And hecalls the resulting crap ‘argument’.

                  Just watch John Cleese and Michael Palin with Argument whenever you see BB or one of the other toxic irritants then you get a laugh and maintain your good health.

      • Lefty 1.1.2

        Big Bruv

        If you are living in the same country as me, that is New Zealand, you should have noticed that Helen Kelly’s predictions about the impact of National Party employment legislation are very accurate.

        The 90 trial period legislation is being widely abused by employers, not in unionised workplaces of course because unions are usually able to prevent it, but among younger workers and migrants in unionised workplaces.

        Just because these abuses go unreported doesn’t need they are not happening, the wider community is well aware of them and despairing of their ability to do anything abour it.

        Likewise youth rates are being used to undermine wages and conditions in unionised workplaces.

        And so it goes. The rich get richer and the brutality of every day life for the working class increases.

        The new legislation will make it more difficult for workers to survive and cause considerable hardship among low income familiesbut long.

        With any luck ithese changes will be yet another reason for more people to move away from the dead end of parliamentary politics and into direction action to rid ourselves of your beloved parasitical ruling class.

        • big bruv


          “The 90 trial period legislation is being widely abused by employers, not in unionised workplaces of course because unions are usually able to prevent it, but among younger workers and migrants in unionised workplaces.”

          I call bullshit on that. Had there been wide abuse by employers then the left wing media would be all over it. You are well aware that the 90 day trial is working well, the unions are well aware but of course the unions never let the truth get in the way of their lies.

          “Likewise youth rates are being used to undermine wages and conditions in unionised workplaces.”

          Rubbish, there is no evidence of that at all.

          Tell me, given that these pieces of legislation are now in force can you point towards a huge increase in unions membership?…..no you cannot.
          Face it, unions are a thing of the past, most workers do not need or want union thugs (and tax avoiders) taking their money from them for nothing in return.

          • North

            Back to Somalia for you my boy………under the patronage of some warlord I’d guess……..so that you can continue your good works !

  2. Jenny 2

    National, a government that is only interested in serving the interests of the rich, no matter the economic cost to the rest of the population.

    In an effort to stop price gouging in the electricity sector. Labour and the Green Party have promised to set up a central electricity buyer, to buy electricity of the newly privatised power companies at a fair price.
    In an emotive attack, this plan was labeled, “economic vandalism” by the Nats. One might ask, since most of the shares have gone to the minority cashed up and the comfortably well off investors. What or who is really being vandalised?

    Figures show that it will be the health and economic well being of the majority of the rest of us.

    Some Waikato residents have been left without electricity and unable to heat their homes after defaulting on power bills that have jumped as much as $83 over the past year.

    Statistics provided by the Labour Party using latest Electricity Authority figures show household power charges for the Counties/Thames Valley/Waikato/King Country region have increased up to 4 per cent in the year to May 2013.

    Nationally, domestic prices have increased 3 per cent on average – hitting consumers with a $67 rise.

    Margaret Starreveld, co-ordinator at Thames Budget Service, said a number of her clients were “in the red” and struggling to stay on top of bills.

    “At least half a dozen if not more, have no power on now because they can’t afford to pay it.”

    Harry Pearl For stuff.co.nz

  3. Jenny 3

    Signs from the Northern summer. Is this what we might expect in our coming summer?

    Is another drought likely?

    “760 die in English heatwave”

    “Heat wave sizzles US”

    What would this mean for our elections and the political climate, of Climate Change ignoring, coming from all parties?

    Will climate change even be an election issue?

    Will Jenny be shut down for asking such questions?

    • muzza 3.1

      It was hotter there in 2003, Jenny. People die regardless if the weather is hot, cold or otherwise, the 760 figure is a red herring!

      In any case, its called summer, and they have not had one in the UK, for 10 years, perhaps they are happy to finally have one!

      Edit – Geo-ingineering can create weather to suit, and I assume you have been reading heavily on the subject!

    • Bill 3.2

      My understanding is that because the jet stream is beginning to ‘meander’ in the northern hemisphere, weather systems become ‘stuck’ -that and specific conditions occur across a greater latitudinal spread than before. But the same thickening of the atmosphere at the pole isn’t quite happening – or at least isn’t as marked – in the southern hemisphere. So I’d guess we’ll get possible effects from general warming, but not the same ‘stuckness’ or weather usually associated with regions closer to the pole or equator ‘bleeding’ on to us from the north or south.

      Will climate change be an election issue? On the fringes at best. Principle focus will be on that wonderful global market economy again and (if the smell of shit hitting the fan is too strong to ignore) proposals or possible measures to save it in the face of any encroachments from that nasty climate system.

      Will Jenny be shut down? pfft 😉

  4. Dv 4

    Does anyone else find it interesting that Nick Smith didn’t approve the Milford Tunnel AND the sky City dump were while Key is out of the country!!!

    • vto 4.1

      On a tangent, it is an interesting and very good decision on Smith’s part imo.

      The latest proposed Haast-Hollyford road has recently been running into heavy water too and that combined with this tunnel being declined pours one hell of a lot of cold water on this proposed road too.

      Too close to next year’s election and the certainty of massive protest would seem to be the reason methinks.

  5. Rosetinted 5

    Small shake in Nelson. Felt larger in Wellington.
    Geonet says Intensity severe 5.7
    Location 40km east from Seddon (in Marlborough)
    19km down

    3 mins earlier there was a 2.9 same place

    • Felt it in Golden Bay – most inappropriately I was on the composting toilet doing my bit to save the world lol

      • Rosetinted 5.1.1

        Actually sounds a very appropriate place marty m I must remember that you have a composting toilet. I think our societal approach to sewage is going to have to change so our toilet systems run differently because of shortage of water, or have to siphon our grey water into a special tank. So you’re way ahead.

        • marty mars

          Thanks Rt and yes I agree we are going to have to change many things in the near future if not yesterday. Our relationship to water, to food, to education, to money, to the environment and to other people. In each of these areas I have tried to make concrete changes to set my whānau up for those changes already happening and the inevitable changes just on the horizon. This is especially important for my 5 year old son – the world he is inheriting is different from the one I came into and he has to be prepared, to know what is important and what isn’t. The days of unconsciously wandering into whatever happens are over for me.

          • muzza

            Nice one Marty….

          • Rosetinted

            marty m
            I had a talk with my grown up family recently. I started by saying that it used to be that parents were mainly responsible for supplying sex education and how everything works etc. Which often we didn’t. Perhaps left books in suitable places. But that something I had never thought of, was to talk about the serious subject of our politics, our whole way of living, whether we could survive in NZ in a country that had seemed to offer so much promise which had been just abandoned by most politicians and many leading powerful citizens.

            So I explained I was going to say a few words about my worries which were something completely new to all of us from the last century. Then we thought that everything could be worked out if we set about it right and if we failed, we had plenty of time to have another go. I said that I didn’t see a good trend in NZ and there was a desire to retreat into every man for himself which is roughly what was we faced 100 years ago.

            This is an important talk that every responsible, thinking parent should have with children, or older grandchildren who deserve to be given some understanding of the position and some apologies from us who have been naive and complacent. It would just give them a chance to see through the trees to the wood, while the trees are still there to illustrate the points made.

            • marty mars

              Rt your comment is very wise – I love this line, “It would just give them a chance to see through the trees to the wood, while the trees are still there to illustrate the points made.”

              imo the answer to just about everything is community – people working together but that can’t happen unless people take responsibility for themselves and not pin their hopes on the fantasy of ‘someone will fix it for us’. The world is what it is now, the lessons from the past are where the answers are for the future and that gives me hope and sustains me when sometimes everything looks very bleak.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The world is what it is now, the lessons from the past are where the answers are for the future…

                As long as we learn that it was the actions of the past that caused the problems and don’t just redo those actions.

              • Rosetinted

                marty mars
                I realise that I did believe that the government would fix things, because I couldn’t see how that could be otherwise. They had the systems, they had the finances, they had the advisors with wide and deep knowledge, why couldn’t they, shouldn’t they be able to do the job of running the country. Everyone would do okay, some more, and opportunities to improve would come and jobs that paid okay could be aspired to and business would thrive.

                Anyone who believes that now must be in some sort of time bubble that insulates them from reality. And examples clearly before us have shown how mendacious politicians can be – they and their arms-length service providers play games that would make Eric Berne blink.

                So you are right one has to look at yourself and work in the community but I hope that local government will be able to do more. It is strange that since they got unlimited spending power with the granting of ‘general competency’ or something, they are getting caught up by central government control even more than before.

          • Alanz

            marty mars at 10:16 am

            – cheers. the best words I have come across for a while on an evening online

    • bad12 5.2

      Felt it here, out by Wellington airport as a 10 second ‘shiver’ and a ‘bump’ at the end…

    • Rosie 5.3

      Felt it here in Wellington. Not so bad out where I live but spoke with husband in town, and there was sirens going off all over town. They’re up in the 16th floor of a building and it was enough for them to get under their desks.

      That region around Seddon has been quite active this morning, according the geonet reports. Hope that was the end of it and the earth is not gearing itself up for something bigger.

      • bad12 5.3.1

        LOLZ, i had time for a quick thought about just what the past few years must have been like for the people of Christchurch as my wee mind went into overdrive over lines of escape and which way is the brick chimney likely to fall if this escalates,

        Poor buggers have had 1000’s of them stronger than our 2 this morning…

        • Rosie

          Hi bad12. I often think of the people of CHCH and what they have had to endure psychologically and financially over the years. They have had to deal with a disaster of a govt on top of natural and personal disaster. My nerves would be shot if I were in their shoes.

          Are you earthquake prepared with a kit etc? Ours came in handy during the solstice storm back in June. Worst thing was listening for updates on the power outage on the wind up radio/phone charger/torch thing. Couldn’t get RNZ and had to listen to some awful talk back idiot.

          • Rosetinted

            Disaster on top of disaster!

          • bad12

            Lolz, only marginally, earthquake prepared that is, have 50 odd liters of water stored,enough packets of rice, tins of fish and assorted other tinned stuff that will suffice for the second week of a disaster,

            2 gas cookers, the gas bottles of which i should give a refill but the weekly ‘mental note’ to myself has so far resulted only in inaction,

            Given a biggie that totals everything my view is the first port of call is to round up everyone in the street and for week 1 do a cook up of all the perishable food first, if needed i am reasonably sure that the non-perishables able to be scrounged from everyone’s kitchens would feed the street for week two,

            Anything more severe and i plan on practicing contortionism which will enable me to bend over and kiss you know what good-bye…

            • Rosie

              Sounds like good emergency preparedness to me! (Must get onto organising a gas cooker and some gas canisters. I found out during the power outage that I can’t cook or boil water even, on the top of my log burner)…….

              One if the most important aspects of resilience is having that sense of connection with your neighbourhood. I can imagine it would make a world of difference when it comes to coping.Good thing for you your neighbourhood is one that you can feel you can get together with.

              And to conclude, I like the conversation that is happening in the thread above, the discussion marty mars is having about adapting to a changing climate and world situation, that big picture stuff that sounds so much like a post apocalyptic movie but is in fact real life. The pace of change is steadily trundling along and it’s inevitable that we must change with it, but man, some times, just getting through the day and the week here and now is hard enough!

              • bad12

                Lolz, sorry to burst your sense of my neighborhood being one of togetherness, far from it, i live in a little street which was the victim of a previous National Government failed social experiment,

                One where half the houses were flogged off on the cheap to those who were not previous tenants of the wholly owned by HousingNZ housing stock, most of these buyers have either latent or obvious ‘hatred’ for the poor and in conversations will exhibit all the callous diatribe of Richardson,Shiply,Bennett et al,

                Having said all that, as the people of Christchurch soon learned, a major disaster is a great leveler and millions of dollars in cash in the midst of such disasters means nothing when the whole ‘known’ system goes belly up,

                There are tho a few of us here with a strong tendency toward socialism and the ability to organize who in the event of such a natural disaster would put such skills to good use at a time when we all would be true equals,

                What i also forgot to mention in my previous comment is i do a pretty mean Hungi and all the ingredients for putting one ‘down’ are present either in my shed, on my property, or in the neighborhood, and given the ‘need’ i would have no compunction ‘liberating’ such materials in any disaster situation…

  6. Morrissey 6

    Chris Trotter reckons the Zimmerman jury got it right
    The Panel, Radio NZ National, Thursday 18 July 2013
    Noelle McCarthy, Lisa Scott, Chris Trotter

    ZOE FERGUSON: It’s Nelson Mandela’s birthday!
    ZOE FERGUSON: And he shares his birthday with Hunter S. Thompson and Vin Diesel!
    CHRIS TROTTER: [indulgently] Ho ho ho ho!
    NOELLE McCARTHY: Well happy BIRTHDAY to Madiba!

    …..[General murmurings of assent.]…..

    NOELLE McCARTHY: And there’s a new movie out about Julian Assange?
    ZOE FERGUSON: Yes, The Fifth Estate. It stars Benedict Cumberpatch!
    NOELLE McCARTHY: And how’s his Australian accent?
    ZOE FERGUSON: Actually, it’s not bad! Here, have a listen….

    A short clip plays, of Benedict Cumberpatch as Assange saying: “Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. But if you give him a mask, he will tell you the truth.

    …..[Short but significant silence in the studio.]

    NOELLE McCARTHY: That wasn’t too bad, actually.
    CHRIS TROTTER: Of course, a top rate actor like Benedict Cumberpatch was always going to be able to manage an Aussie accent.
    LISA SCOTT: Mmmmm, mmmmm.
    NOELLE McCARTHY: Yes indeed.
    ZOE FERGUSON: Of course Assange says the movie is “propaganda and lies”. He he he!
    LISA SCOTT: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    NOELLE McCARTHY: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    CHRIS TROTTER: Ho ho ho ho ho! He WOULD! Ho ho ho ho!

    …..[Awkward silence]….

    ZOE FERGUSON: [brightly] Do any of you follow the Pope on Twitter?
    LISA SCOTT: No, no. I don’t.
    NOELLE McCARTHY: Me neither. Chris, what about you?
    CHRIS TROTTER: Oh no. Why WOULD you?

    …..[Awkward silence]….

    NOELLE McCARTHY: Now you have something about this Florida verdict, and Juror B-37?

    …A long, rambling discussion ensues, with most of the participants clearly disgusted with the verdict. But not everyone….

    CHRIS TROTTER: [very slowly, mustering all the pomp and gravitas he can] I think all this talk about the jury is most unfortunate. You have, even in this case I think, to trust the jury. In any trial, there are always items of evidence that we do not know about, even in this case I think.

    ….[Long, extremely uncomfortable pause]….

    NOELLE McCARTHY: [doggedly positive] One thing the whole world is talking about, Zoe Ferguson, is the royal birth!

    …..More clucking and cooing and laughing. The rest of the pre-show segment winds down with brief discussions of other trivialities: a new drug that will make the need to exercise unnecessary, a chuckle about the sinking of the Costa Concordia, and the death of Glee star Cory Monteith.

    • Macro 6.1

      And THAT is why I have turned Radio NZ permanently OFF!
      I get all the news I need via Scoop.

    • Murray Olsen 6.2

      For me, that just confirms Trotter as the coward who prefers form over substance that I have always considered him to be. If there’s something you don’t know about, you don’t know. You don’t automatically take the side of authority. Pffft.

      • Paul 6.2.1

        Is he going to be NZ’s Hitchens?

      • felix 6.2.2

        Murray, that shouldn’t confirm anything for you for the simple reason that none of it actually happened.

        It’s not a transcript. It’s Morrissey’s “impressions”.

        Go listen for yourself before you take his word for it as his impressions, while frequently funny and well crafted, are notoriously inaccurate. In this example barely a word of it was actually spoken and what was is stripped of context.

        • Morrissey

          Murray, that shouldn’t confirm anything for you for the simple reason that none of it actually happened.

          Yes it did happen. I was scribbling furiously in freehand as Trotter uttered exactly those words. He sententiously, grandly, solemnly expressed support for that disgusting “verdict” by that disgusting Florida jury. I might have done Lisa Scott, that vacuous writer of inane novels, a disservice by writing that she pathetically assented to what Trotter said by humming “Mmmmm, mmmmm”; perhaps she actually showed her approval by vacuously laughing. I was concerned with capturing the essence of that pompous bullfrog Trotter, and didn’t record her murmurings verbatim. But I know that she expressed assent to what Trotter said, and anyone who suffered through that depraved conversation knows it too.

          It’s not a transcript. It’s Morrissey’s “impressions”.

          It’s a transcript as close as I can get, given that I scribble it down on paper or sometimes have to anxiously reconstruct it from memory. Occasionally I type into the computer as I listen. You know perfectly well, and so does anyone who reads them, that my transcripts are accurate. Not always word-perfect, but they are accurate.

          Go listen for yourself before you take his word for it as his impressions, while frequently funny and well crafted, are notoriously inaccurate.

          If you quibble over rats and mice, like the number of times Hekia Parata says “ummm, errrr”, or whether Lisa Scott murmurs vacuously or laughs vacuously to express her agreement with a pretentious toady, then, sure, you can claim that my transcripts are “inaccurate”. But anyone who listened to that godawful Panel pre-show on Thursday knows that I got it absolutely right.

          In this example barely a word of it was actually spoken and what was is stripped of context.

          The words spoken were exactly as I recorded them. The embellishments, or improvements, come in my snide and annoying little descriptors, which are of course designed to undermine and expose the reality of people like Chris Trotter. I always take care to put my writing in context.

          • felix

            “The words spoken were exactly as I recorded them.”

            Sorry Mozz, this is simply not true as the recording shows: http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/aft/aft-20130719-1540-the_panel_pre-show_for_19_july_2013-048.mp3

            There is barely a word of the interview that matches your impression.

            • Morrissey

              Sorry Mozz, this is simply not true as the recording shows:

              The recording matches up exactly to my transcript, certainly in the bit that matters, which is the windy lecture by Trotter admonishing his inferiors who dared to cast doubt on the integrity of the latest travesty of justice in the Deep South.

              There is barely a word of the interview that matches your impression.

              In the parts that matter, my transcript got it perfectly right. Or are you trying to say that Chris Trotter did NOT deliver a slow, pompous speech in defence of those halfwits in Florida? And are you trying to suggest that my evocation of the frivolous, cruel and irresponsible comments of Trotter, Lisa Scott, Noelle McCarthy and Zoe Ferguson is unfair to them in some way? Should I have rendered their continual laughter at the victims of state vengeance so as to make it seem like caring and concerned laughter rather than a callous expression of gleeful contempt for those officially designated targets?

              Your quibbles are correct in the narrow sense that I have not provided a verbatim transcript. Occasionally I do, but if I did that all the time, and did not embellish them with helpful little cues as to the tone of these godawful affairs, they would be as unreadable and useless as a Brett Dale post.

              • felix

                Morrissey, where am I quibbling?

                You said your writing matches exactly what was said. It doesn’t. Not even close.

                I’ve posted the recording so anyone can hear for themselves, but you really ought to have a listen yourself. Listen to the Trotter section you put so much weight on.

                He doesn’t say anything you quote him as saying. Not. A. Single. Sentence.

                Murray Olsen, above, has based an opinion about Trotter on something you made up!

                It’s not quibbling Mozz, it’s asking you to be honest ffs and mark your writing as what it really is – a clever parody.

                • Morrissey

                  1.) Morrissey, where am I quibbling?
                  I’m afraid you have gone far beyond mere quibbling, felix. You are not only contesting the precise wording of what I wrote, which is a valid exercise, but you are pouring scorn on the very substance of what I have recorded, as if some words out of order, or an extra bit of vacuous laughter somehow render the whole thing false.

                  2.) You said your writing matches exactly what was said. It doesn’t. Not even close.
                  See, this is where you come unstuck. My (admittedly hurried) transcription of that nasty and depraved few minutes on the radio was not word-perfect—yes, I need to learn proper shorthand ASAP, instead of relying on my own slapdash version—but it did capture the essence of what those foolish drones were saying. In particular, I was careful to write down what Trotter said; while it is not verbatim, I did get what he said. Anyone who listened to that horrible bit of radio heard him vapouring on exactly in the pompous and self-important manner I evoked. I concede that the words I reported might not have been absolutely identical to those croaked by Trotter, but for you to claim they were “not even close” is utterly wrong.

                  3.) I’ve posted the recording so anyone can hear for themselves, but you really ought to have a listen yourself. Listen to the Trotter section you put so much weight on.
                  The person putting weight on that wandery and vacuous speech was Trotter himself. The air of gravity and solemnity with which he spoke those words was something to behold; the depravity of them evidently escaped some people.

                  4.) He doesn’t say anything you quote him as saying. Not. A. Single. Sentence.
                  You have overstated your case, my friend. Now you are veering into blatant dishonesty. Trotter spoke in the tone I evoked, and in pretty much those words. Although my version of his spurious speech is undoubtedly more elegant and well-considered, so I’ve done him a favour.

                  5.) Murray Olsen, above, has based an opinion about Trotter on something you made up!
                  Once again, I made up nothing. The only faults you can legitimately point out in my version of that horrible Panel pre-show are some ellipses. Murray Olsen is a regular listener to the Panel; he knows, just as you do too, that my transcripts are fair and accurate versions of those programmes. I do not make things up; I do exaggerate in order to highlight the absurdity (or in this case the depravity) to which I and other listeners are regularly subjected.

                  6.) It’s not quibbling Mozz, it’s asking you to be honest ffs and mark your writing as what it really is – a clever parody.
                  It’s honest, and it’s accurate. It is not a parody, because I am not making stuff up. In my blackest, most luridly imaginative moments, I could not dream up characters as cruel and casually depraved as Noelle McCarthy, Chris Trotter, Jim Mora and the rest of them guffawing and sneering at the targets of massive state vengeance.

                • Murray Olsen

                  My opinion of Trotter was formed long before I even knew of The Standard. It wasn’t formed by listening to The Panel either. As far as I can remember, I never have.

              • Rosetinted

                You do provide a very good version of discussions but it isn’t verbatim, and you don’t advance the discussion by saying so. People enjoy your version, it is satire, but cannot be taken as factual. So why pretend that it’s important to you that it is said to be factual. Your whole point is to take the mickey and give an idea, yours, of what has gone on. Don’t get your wires crossed as to what you are doing. Satire is not actual it’s a clever mirror which shows us a near view of facts to give a different understanding. We all need to know the difference. Including yourself.

            • sockpuppet

              Oh Felix you are mistaken, Morrissey Breen is the greatest critic of the radio waves this country has ever seen. His witty piece perfectly captures the mood and intent of the characters perfectly.

              Methinks you are just jealous of his command of language which is only comes close to being matched by those other erudite gentleman Prof Longhair and North.

              We can’t wait to have him back at Daisy Cutter sports to join the rest of the team as Jackanapes, Joe Orton and Empedocoles are missing him terribly.

              • Morrissey

                Oh Felix you are mistaken, Morrissey Breen is the greatest critic of the radio waves this country has ever seen.
                Gosh! Such praise makes a fella come over all blushing and embarrassed….

                His witty piece perfectly captures the mood and intent of the characters perfectly.

                Methinks you are just jealous of his command of language which is only comes close to being matched by those other erudite gentleman Prof Longhair and North.
                This writer, i.e., moi, is honoured just to be mentioned in the same breath as either of those distinguished Standardistas.

                We can’t wait to have him back at Daisy Cutter sports to join the rest of the team as Jackanapes, Joe Orton and Empedocoles are missing him terribly.
                I’m afraid the ban still holds. It’s going on for eight years now; how long can Napes hold a grudge, I wonder?

              • felix

                There’s nothing personal in my criticism, sockpuppet – I quite like Mozza and frequently enjoy his commentary.

                But they’re not transcripts, they’re not in any way accurate, and it brings the whole site into disrepute to have such blatantly fictional material published as if it were fact.

                • Colonial Viper


                • Te Reo Putake

                  Plus 1, too. Perhaps we should style Mozza’s manglings as ‘transcrapts’?

                  • Morrissey

                    Perhaps we should style Mozza’s manglings as ‘transcrapts’?

                    “Transcrapts”! Oh I see what you’ve done there! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Good one Te Reo!

                    No, not really. You know perfectly well that my transcripts are accurate. I catch the tone, the zeitgeist of these horrible and irresponsible discussions, which are funded, I must remind you, by the likes of you and me.

                    I suspect your stance against me is motivated less by a concern with 100 per cent accuracy than by irritation that I show up the shallowness and depravity of people who say things that you are on record as agreeing with.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You suspect wrong. I don’t like cheats. I don’t like people who make up shit and claim it’s accurate. I don’t like words being put into other people’s mouths. I don’t like the misuse of the english language, in your case attempting to devalue the concept of ‘transcript’.

                      The thing is you do not accurately record what is said, you admit that yourself. Yet you continually claim that your made up words are an accurate transcript. You actually let people like Trotter off the hook by making up quotes, when the real words he used should be damning him. I think your problem is that you’re not fast enough to type what they really say and you’re not quick enough to write satire.

                      ps, some real satire for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs

                    • Morrissey

                      1.)You suspect wrong. I don’t like cheats. I don’t like people who make up shit and claim it’s accurate.
                      I made up none of it. The words were Trotter’s. You know that as well as I do. You are trying to make an issue out of the fact that I did not use a tape recorder, but hurriedly transcribed his pretentious balderdash as he uttered it. I suspect you DO sympathize with the line that Trotter and everyone else on that substandard program has taken, which is to laugh at and demean and scorn Edward Snowden. Your comments about another dissenter, Julian Assange, are a matter of record.

                      2.) I don’t like words being put into other people’s mouths. I don’t like the misuse of the english language, in your case attempting to devalue the concept of ‘transcript’.
                      I have long ago conceded that my transcripts are not always verbatim. But as anyone who has read them over the years knows perfectly well, they are always accurate; I go out of my way to capture the essence of what these people are saying. Your objection is utterly spurious. I am quite happy for you or anyone to put up a word by word transcript and compare it with my Reader’s Digest version. My transcripts are fair and accurate; no the words are not ALWAYS perfectly in correspondence with what the likes of Larry Lackwit Williams or Christine Spankin’ Rankin or Chris Trotter say; why don’t you put up a perfect transcript so people can compare? You won’t of course; you know I am correct and your “objections” are largely frivolous.

                      3.) The thing is you do not accurately record what is said, you admit that yourself.
                      I admit that I do not always get it down word-perfect. My transcripts—or loose transcripts, if you like—are not perfect, but they are certainly accurate as to the tone and the general sense of what these people have said. You know that, too, just like the many people who comment positively after my posts to affirm their accuracy.

                      4.) Yet you continually claim that your made up words are an accurate transcript.
                      You keep on repeating your deliberate falsehood, that the words I write are “made up.” You are being mischievous, and I don’t think it’s funny, and I am not prepared to indulge your deliberate strategy of lying to try to discredit me.

                      5.) You actually let people like Trotter off the hook by making up quotes, when the real words he used should be damning him.
                      The people who let that vacuous bullfrog off the hook are people like you and felix, who went to the bizarre length of claiming that Trotter “said nothing” like what I recorded. Now, why felix wrote that bizarrely untrue statement is still unclear; what IS clear is that what he claimed is completely wrong.

                      6.) I think your problem is that you’re not fast enough to type what they really say and you’re not quick enough to write satire.
                      Yes, I need to upgrade my transcription ability. What do you mean, exactly, by “not quick enough to write satire”?

                      7.) ps, some real satire for you:
                      Way ahead of you, buddy. I improved that song almost exactly ten years ago….

      • Morrissey 6.2.3

        If there’s something you don’t know about, you don’t know. You don’t automatically take the side of authority.

        Chris Trotter does. I think he still has his heart set on a political career.

  7. Te Reo Putake 7

    I’m hearing rumours of another forestry death this morning, near Taupo. And maybe a second; a logging truck driver.

    • Morrissey 8.1

      This shoddy article debunks nothing. Intelligent and honest readers—not yourself, obviously—will immediately see that this is simply another highly misleading interpretation of statistics. It might have been commissioned by Stephen Joyce himself.

      Come to think of it, Brian Fallow is a Joyce doppelganger.

      • muzza 8.1.1

        Brian Fellow, does not understand simple monetary policy, or money as debt.

        I asked him to his face, he had no answer!

        • Te Reo Putake

          Let me guess, he was looking at his watch, rolling his eyes and saying something ’bout a meeting he was late for?

          • muzza

            Nice of you to have a pop, Voice, how you doing today?

            No, BF genuinely didn’t understand the fundamental concepts, around private money supply.

            He also could not understand the relationship between exports, and current account deficits.

        • big bruv

          Perhaps if you had not been frothing at the mouth when you asked him he might have understood what the hell you were saying.

          • muzza

            No, he would not have – Brian also tries, but fails to spin the line that inequality is NZ is not worsening.

            Brian claims to be an economist, he is no such thing, rather like you trying to be an agitator on this site, but being called out, immediately!

            Keep trying champ, the more you do , the easier it is to see through it!

    • amirite 8.2

      Right out of Paula Benefit’s office. Very credible. LOL

      Debunk of a ‘debunk”


      • Morrissey 8.2.1

        Nice work, amirite. Don’t expect an answer from “Santi”, however. I suspect he or she is a National Party provocateur.

        • marty mars

          + 1 Santi doesn’t engage – not enough courage or conviction – typical right winger imo.

        • Santi

          Inequality is the human story. Good luck with ‘fixing’ that
          Those who would try to make us ‘more equal’ would only ever do so by putting their thieving little hands into my pockets.

          • McFlock

            Yes. Because you’d rather let children starve. Because you don’t realise or care how fucked up you are.

            • farmboy

              why should i feed your kids. Feed them yourself

              • Murray Olsen

                Why should you use Jonas Salk’s polio vaccine? Develop your own.

              • McFlock

                Next time you get a drought I hope to govt tells you to fuck off.

                • KJT

                  I doubt if Sancti or BB are anything as useful as a farmer.

                  Usually when you dig into the back story of right wing commentators you find they are low to medium paid wannabees, at best middle managers, or, so called, journalists, or similar, who have reached the level of their incompetence. In their position because of nepotism, the old school tie network, or daddies money. Their own comments show that they would be to thick to be employable, otherwise
                  Those who have never done anything as hard as starting a business from scratch, or been contractors or employees in fields where real competence is required.

                  Real achievers, like many of us who comment from the left viewpoint, know how difficult it can be.

    • karol 8.3

      Are you sure/ Read below the headlines & lead..

      Lead paragraph:

      The idea that New Zealand has become one of the most unequal societies in the developed world is just not supported by the data. It is a belief that is in some danger of hardening into received wisdom.

      So, amidst the various bits of data, we learn NZ is not the worst for inequality, but slightly better than the likes of Aussie, Canada, the UK and US (all of which, are highly equal societies?), slightly below the OECD average, etc:

      A standard measure of income inequality is a thing called the Gini coefficient; the higher it is, the greater the inequality.

      Since the global financial crisis New Zealand’s has whipped around – it fell in the latest survey, reversing a jump in the one before – but the trend line through it is flat at a value of 33.

      That is similar to the Gini scores of Australia, Canada and Japan, which ranged from 32 to 34, well below the United States’ 38 and a little above the OECD median of 31.


      On the latest Ministry of Social Development Report, which incorporates the NZ Housing Economic survey, Fallow says:

      While the report debunks the notion that New Zealand is conspicuous among developed countries for inequality, it is far from providing a defence of the status quo or grounds for complacency.

      What it has to say about child poverty and about the impact of housing costs among those on lower-middle incomes, makes pretty sobering reading.

      And then there’s the fact, compared with other countries, NZ has no capital gains tax (and that is a problem because a lot of Kiwis rely on housing for income/wealth increases).

      Fallow notes:

      As capital gains are more likely to feature among the higher reaches of the income distribution, this is likely to underestimate inequality.

      Wealth is distributed more unequally than income.
      A richer picture emerges when the report turns to housing costs (mortgage payments, rents and rates).

      Housing costs amounting to more than 30 per cent of a household’s disposable income are counted as high and are often associated with financial stress for low to middle income households, the report says.

      Yep. Everything is sure rosy in NZ for those on low incomes!

      • Poission 8.3.1

        And then there’s the fact, compared with other countries, NZ has no capital gains tax (and that is a problem because a lot of Kiwis rely on housing for income/wealth increases).

        And as it is an unmeasured quality it does not enter into the tax stream data distorting comparative analyisis with other OECD countries.

        The OECD report into inequality is here and addresses issues such as the substantive depreciation of human capital in NZ.


        • Macro

          The rot started with Douglas was exacerbated by Richardson and her “Mother of all Budgets”(and what a mother that was) The results of which are clearly apparent in the first graph to which you link. This graph first came to my attention in 1998. Clark and Cullen had the opportunity to reverse this disparity but chose not to do so.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 8.4

      I congratulate the National Spin Team for their gold medal performance. It is especially hard to argue with this:

      For a population uniform on the values yi, i = 1 to n, indexed in non-decreasing order (yi ≤ yi+1):

      G = \frac{1}{n}\left ( n+1 – 2 \left ( \frac{\sum\limits_{i=1}^n \; (n+1-i)y_i}{\sum\limits_{i=1}^n y_i} \right ) \right )
      This may be simplified to:
      G = \frac{2 \Sigma_{i=1}^n \; i y_i}{n \Sigma_{i=1}^n y_i} -\frac{n+1}{n}
      This formula actually applies to any real population, since each person can be assigned his or her own yi.

    • Santi 8.5

      It is worth reminding all just what equality means for the Left. As Winston Churchill put it:
      The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

      • karol 8.5.1

        Yes, indeed. The poor in (capitalist 21st century) NZ are blessed with being in the wonderful situation of having to choose between paying bills and buying food; with living in damp houses; with living in garages; with living in over-crowded households; unable to get jobs; jumping through WINZ’s dehumanising hoops; etc, etc.

      • Rosetinted 8.5.2

        Of course Winston Churchill would most likely support capitalism over socialism. He came from a noble family, the mansion and grounds they own are magnificent, and he had to be firm in his resolve to fight for the status quo in Britain. He had to keep his focus and strength managing WW2, and get, manage, and maintain relationships with allies as required. Eventually seeing that USSR was of more value to him than refusing to treat with them. He was pragmatic.

        Also – Churchill’s famous dictum: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.” (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)

        There are times when what was said and done, is no longer appropriate as an unqualified direction for people and society. Democracy is something that we have had in NZ. But now only the shadow and not the substance. We have to restore the real, see the fabrication. It is no longer appropriate to sit back and view our democracy being dismantled.

        • bad12

          Yes, Churchill i think you will find was also quoted in one speech as saying that as far as He was concerned for every job in an English factory he would be happy to see 20 people lined up out-side seeking employment,

          The victors get to write and re-write history, Churchill ever the war-monger gloried in the things, war that is, without war Churchill was simply a bloated Tory Bludger with a big mouth…

          • tinfoilhat

            I think that is very unfair.

            Many of his most famous musings were on the pointlessness and waste of war.

            • bad12

              Fair enough, but was it not Churchill unable to get a commission during the Boer War but still hell bent to be involved who went there as a war correspondent,

              Churchill who planned the attack on the Turk’s in His time at the British Admiralty during 1914-18???,

              The public image of war-mongers is to decry wars whilst given the opportunity happily engaging in them…

              • Colonial Viper

                Someone had to fight and win the bloody war for the Brits.

                • bad12

                  Which one, the war where the Russian’s finally broke the back of the German Armies 40 K from Moscow and US intervention allowed the ‘new Rome’ of the Western world to wrest the neo-colonial crown from the severely depleted Brits…

          • tinfoilhat

            I think that is very unfair.

            Many of his most famous musings were on the pointlessness and waste of war.

            • Anne

              I’m in some agreement with tinfoilhat here. He certainly was a complex individual but he had a brilliant brain – almost too brilliant for his own good. Have read a number of books about Churchill and he had to make some terrible decisions during WW2. It must have affected him deeply. He had negative aspects to him, but he was exactly the right person to lead England and Allied Europe through the war years.

          • Rosetinted

            Don’t give Churchill the Peter Jackson treatment. People who do valuable things for the people and the country that very few others could manage are like gold nuggets that are large and unique. To get the valuable end result means extraordinary endeavours and measures that fit the times.

          • KJT

            Churchill was somewhat contradictory at times, like most people.

            Another speech was about the necessity, for fairness and economic functionality, for employers to pay a fair share in wages.

            And another about war profiteers ripping off their fellow citizens, when everyone should be pulling together to win the war.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.5.3

        Ah, a Tory explaining socialism.

        Not really surprising that he got it wrong then.

      • KJT 8.5.4

        Why should we congratulate ourselves that we have people living at a level slightly above the poor, in the third world, when New Zealand has enough resources for everyone to be fed, housed, have decent healthcare and be a part of society.

        We are a RICH country after all.

        Even though, since Rogernomics, our average income has dropped below the OECD average http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/nz-disposable-income-below-oecd-average-5451390
        What makes it worse is that most of the rise in income, and wealth has gone to the top 2%. 17% rises as against static or dropping incomes for the rest of us.

        In fact, far from an equal sharing of misery, New Zealand is wealthy enough to give an income per family, if wealth was spread more equally, of about $81 000 a year. In the USA the number is over $100k.

  8. freedom 9

    Even Treasury slammed SkyCity stitch up

    was just wondering if there was anyone who had any thoughts on this idea ?

    How about any business that wants to operate a gambling service be taxed at least 1% of the gross revenues earned by the gambling side of the business? Call it a ‘Social Harm’ tax. This includes all Casinos, Pokies in pubs, Lotto and TAB operations. No exemptions, no adjustments. All other taxes would still apply but only after the initial 1% of the gross earnings from the gambling has been established.

    With the largesse a Social Harm Tax would secure we could create a new organisation whose sole job is to fund the start up of local/small business investment by and for NZ citizens. A caveat would exist in the funding criteria where any business applying to use the funds of the Social Harm Tax must commit to making annual transparent donations, (of funds or services) to local community group/s that equal a minimum of 1% of gross earnings.* There are numerous groups who would benefit. Schools and Sports Clubs spring to mind as the biggest potential beneficiaries from the windfall of a Social Harm Tax. Not to mention the inherent benfits of more small local businesses working with and for the needs of their local community.

    Many small businesses fail in their first two to three years but those that survive long term would in all likelihood contribute more, in real dollars and value of services directly to their local community needs, than the start-up funding they received. The community is also more likely to support the business as it receives numerous benefits, not the least of which will be more jobs. I can already hear the howls of derision from certain circles as I suggest select businesses are forced to support the community they leech off, but if profiting from gambling is your business then as disagreeable as it is for many, I do think you should be made to pay more tax than other businesses. Partner this Social Harm Tax with a Robin Hood Tax of 0.001% on all bank/stock/finance transactions (which is directly fed to Social Security and Housing programmes) and I am quietly confident that many of the current issues would rapidly dissipate.

    *As they are a seething mess of well-established rorting, all registered charities should be excluded from being able to receive these funds.

  9. Rosetinted 10

    Detroit has declared bankruptcy!! Years of corrupt and faulty management has led to its collapse.

    This is what will happen in NZ if we can’t control the maladministration of our dear little country. Do we love it? Do we want the best for our people and environment? Well we can’t get the best, nothing ever can be done perfectly.

    But can we not get control and establish really good processes to provide the best oversight and implementation of good policies that are as good, and more than just practical, as we can make them. (We do have to aim for more than practical because that often means just doing what is the easiest at the time, or delivers the most advantage for those involved.)

  10. Rosetinted 11

    Just noticed something – 8 cities in USA have filed for bankruptcy since 2010 – see USA Today link.

  11. lprent 12

    Test new email system. Too lazy to try it in the test system.

    • lprent 12.1

      Ok, it is slightly dumb in that if it is a new comment that it says that it is a reply to the previous commentator.

      It also doesn’t have a digest option (but who wants a enormous email of a couple of hundred comments). You may as well stay onsite

      Not sure if you also have to have a wordpress.com login to subscribe, but that is the nature of these things.

      Apart from that it satisfies all of the requirements. In particular my systems aren’t dispatching the emails directly and the emails do not reflect the server location.

  12. Nice one Toby Manhire

    However, what none of these so-called experts has managed to explain is how they’d feel if their attitudes paved the way for the systematic extermination of all the world’s kittens by masked terrorist gangs. All of the kittens, dead.

    Taken together, the detractors’ arguments could be seen to lay bare legislation that is slipshod, unfit for purpose, a bill attempting to clarify the law by way of a mudbath. They could be regarded as exposing numerous shortcomings, incoherence and nil justification for urgency.

    But, come on, when you think about it, why would you take seriously the independent watchdogs for privacy, for human rights, former agency directors, internet experts, the national regulator of the legal profession and concerned members of the public, especially when backed by a bevy of devil-beasts and knuckleheads?


  13. captain hook 14

    Orange county California got taken for over $6 billion a few years ago by the Lynch mob.
    they got some of it back.

  14. captain hook 15

    but this is what I really wanted to say or quote;”Never before has the state been so willing to satisfy so completely the most punitive, the cruellest and nakedly sociopathic impulses of its wealthiest citizens.”
    Chris Trotter.
    The Dompost, JUly 19,2013.
    See the whole country has gone mad.
    Hasn’t it?

  15. captain hook 16

    and FYI the incessant use of dishonest, disrespectful and invalid arguments is now a means of distinguishing national party supporters.
    The cunning linguists at Victoria University allow this nonsense by calling them tag endings when they know or should know that they are dishonest figures of speech and the National Party dont care because at bottom they are dishonest types of people.

  16. mikesh 17

    Another quake. Just this minute.

    • karol 17.1

      <a href='4.4 – 55km west of Levin.

    • bad12 17.2

      Milder that this morning’s and felt here as a bit of a shudder, without looking at the geo-net data i would suggest that these quakes are on either the Ohariu fault,(a message to the Hairdo???), or one further west,

      One here a year or so ago, definitely on the Waiarapa fault, the one that went in the 1840’s and raised parts of Wellington by a full meter, made something here go off like a rifle shot, am still not sure what cracked, either a floor joist or the brick-work between the two units is my guess,

      On the odd occasion i find myself engaged in imagining the mess another ‘biggie’ would make of our capital city,

      Of particular amusement is the Wellington City Councils ‘blue line’ painted on various roads indicating that residents may be ‘safe’ on one side of said line, the one painted on the Evans Bay side of Kilbirnie is barely 300 meters from the water of Evans Bay,

      Kilbirnie, should a Japanese size Tsunmai hit the south coast at Lyall Bay would cease to exist, all of it on ‘the flat’ would simply be bulldozed by the sea into Evans Bay and beyond, there would then be a huge ‘backwash’ as the Wellington Harbor attempted to disgorge the Tsunami’s contents so it’s quite possible that parts of Petone would be found later in Kilbirnie and vice verca…

  17. I’m not sure I really understand this graphic, so if someone can help me interpret it great


    • karol 18.1

      Hmmm. Thanks for the link. Interesting. It looks to me like layers upon layers of networks. If you roll the mouse over NZ it switches between some franchises controlled by overseas links, and some controlling other links within NZ.

    • McFlock 18.2


      Basically, each dot is a subsidiary company of the corporate conglomerate, roughly distributed according to the world map – a bit like the sensory homunculus(site here).

      The map gets distorted because of the number of subsidiaries in each country (pink countries are “tax havens”, while blue countries also involve actual production/earnings). The arrows show the insane ownership structure that takes the money back to corporate global head office.


      WAITOMO CAVES LIMITED One of 155 subsidiaries registered in New Zealand


      So the actual company that makes the money is in nested ownership of three other companies before it even leaves the NZ holding structure.

      • marty mars 18.2.1

        Thanks karol and McFlock – now a really basic question i suppose – why do they do this, is it a tax issue, is it a mitigation against lawsuits issue, money laundering? I’m assuming that most of these entities are ‘book’ entities rather than physical companies other than in a legal sense. It can’t be because they are trying to hide it because that info is public or do they just not care about even trying to pretend to hide their bullshit anymore, or is it worse – that this is the tip of the iceberg showing and most is hidden.

        • karol

          I think it probably has to do with the complexity of nested and layers of interwoven companies it is hard to track where the money is flowing in all cases.

          The answer may be explained somewhere on this site.

        • RedBaronCV

          Makes you wonder if overseas(non residents) should be allowed to incorporate in NZ. Perhaps we should insist they do their business here through their main company and tax the hell out of them unless that company is incoporated in a suitable country i.e not a tax haven. Issue a gst number under “a business operating scheme”

        • McFlock

          Some of it is to do with organisation issues in a massive corporation: to prevent one shit venture bringing the entire structure down, it makes sense for a holding company to be formed for, say, their Australasian units. This limits their direct exposure to a failed venture. Then they might have tiered limited liability companies as each unit gains substance, and the management group is separated off from the earning portfolios. So if the Waitomo thing fails, its losses are limited for the tourism holdings company, which may have spread its risk, or might just be a buffer for that project.

          Where this really falls down is that each investment fund is then managed by a separate company that spreads the risk, e.g.




          which owns


          Which in turn owns the imaginatively-named


          So if co59 loses zillions, its debts are limited via liquidation, and any loss it causes GS-NZ-private equity reduces the taxable income of that unit only.
          And that’s even before you get into tax minimisation via tax havens, which just hurt my brain with their gymnastics.

          • RedBaronCV

            Understand what you are saying McFlock but they could still incoporate a Waitomo Caves Limited in the UK or USA and then operate here. No need for the tiers of companies. I still say tax them hard if incorporated in a tax haven

            • McFlock

              It’s not just an issue of international finance – the question of limited liability is part of the problem with Pike River families getting reparations, for example.

              ISTR a story that when an Eastern European country privatised after the soviets pulled out they had a rule that the infrastructure could only be privatised to citizens of that country. Trouble was that the financing wasn’t controlled, so a whole bunch of individuals got rich acting as fronts for overseas privatisation.

        • muzza

          Marty, its called structured finance, I’ve referenced it on here previously!

          Its run through the banks, primarily, they employ armies of ex government tax accountants, lawyers etc, and they actively sell legalized tax avoidance for their clients, which often includes themselves, and the subsidiaries. Can be considered centralized devolution of their operations with the intention to avoid compliance requirements other than lip service.

          They ensure that the regulators are onside, by revolving door directorships via government for legislation, and regulatory management of entities like the FSA/SEC etc.

          The AML schemes are part of the structured finance layered approach, but they exist to ensure control of money supply, and enforce capital controls as much as anything else, because the banks can move money internationally via international jurisdictions, freely and without intervention for the most part over the commercial swift system.

          There are private networks with gateways which operate globally, that are not subject to regulation at any level.

  18. millsy 19

    If big bruv and Jimmie, as well as Santi came up to me and told me that I should have my wages cut and I should be living out on the street, they would have no teeth and a few broken ribs and rolling on the floor.

    I am sick to death of people who want to take what little we have off us because they think we are lazy.

    If they had their way, people would be forced to pay for private health insurance, earn 50c an hour, and end up living on the street. And have to breathe polluted air to boot.

    I just want to smash their heads against a wall 10-20 times.

    I really do.

    [lprent: You may feel it, but you may not say or advocate for it on this site. That is stepping over the line because it causes silly flamewars. One week educational ban and thank your lucky stars that I saw it before r0b did (and that I wasn’t able to find the previous banning I was sure that I’d remembered for the same offense). ]

    • Paul 19.1

      Remember they only come on this site to try and wind us up.
      If you want some encouragement, they have pretty sad lives as they obviously have nothing better to do than this.

    • Paul 19.2

      Remember they only come on this site to try and wind us up.
      If you want some encouragement, they have pretty sad lives as they obviously have nothing better to do than this.

    • big bruv 19.3


      So union thuggery is alive and well in the year 2013 I see. I imagine that you are the type of low life that stands on union picket lines and hides behind the power of the group of knuckle dragging morons protesting some perceived injustice.

      I do think you are lazy, I do think that if you earn less than the minimum wage then you are a failure to yourself and your family and I also think that your employer should be able to dismiss you for any reason he sees fit at any time given that you are obviously not of any real or on going value to his business.

      As for wanting to “smash my head against a wall 10-20 times, well you could always try I guess, you would not get very far. It does not surprise me that you want to do something like that, the truly moronic always resort to violence when they know they have lost the argument.

      [lprent: You really are a posturing dickhead. Millsy’s comment had nothing to do with “union thuggery” It was a statement by an individual and had nothing to do with unions, wasn’t in the context of a thread on unions, and having unions in there appears to have been a deliberate invention of your own. One week ban for deliberately trying to incite a flamewar. ]

      • felix 19.3.1

        Still on the benefit, bruv?

        Nothing to be ashamed of mate, not much work about.

        Chin up.

      • Colonial Viper 19.3.2

        Go long guillotine manufacturers.

      • Paul 19.3.3

        Haven’t you got something better to be doing than stirring up trouble bb?

      • tricledrown 19.3.4

        Big bruv is afraid of unions maybe its because he afraid workers are aloud to form associations to get a fairer deal from the associations of wealth keepers that is Act and national who allow massive wage theft to happen for their benefit!
        ie farm workers who work long hours yet only receive 40 to 45 hrs wages while having to work in excess of 80 hrs commonly!
        Fisheries worker who may not get any pay at all !

  19. big bruv 20


    Do you really think that anybody with a differing opinion is simply stirring up trouble?

    Are you really that arrogant that you believe that only the left has the answers to the very problems your lot caused in the first place?

    Actually, don’t bother answering those two questions, I already know that the answer you will give me is yes.

    No wonder nobody is listening to the left in NZ.

    • felix 20.1

      “Do you really think that anybody with a differing opinion is simply stirring up trouble?”

      Trouble is bb we’ve already ruled out fascism as an answer to anything, and that’s all you ever contribute.

      And seeing as you must know by now that your one answer is never going to be accepted here, there’s really no conclusion left to draw other than that you’re trooling.

    • Draco T Bastard 20.2

      Are you really that arrogant that you believe that only the left has the answers to the very problems your lot caused in the first place?

      Actually, it was your lot that caused the problems. Always has been and always will be as they’re the result of selfishness and greed.

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  • Hutt Road cycle path officially opened
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  • New Zealand’s manaakitanga highlighted in China
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  • Outstanding public service recognised
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  • Global trade, business promotion focus of Shanghai meetings
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  • Drivers to get more time to gain full licence
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  • NZ-China FTA upgrade negotiations conclude
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  • New Zealand gifts White Horse to Nikko Toshogu Shrine in Japan
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  • High Commissioner to Canada announced
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  • New Retirement Commissioner appointed
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  • O’Connor to Thailand and India
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