Open mike 19/11/2010

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2010 - 104 comments
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104 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2010”

  1. Jenny 1

    .
    Another reason why National should not be permitted one more term.

    Annemarie Thorby, 15 November 2010. New Zealand’s justice system is going through another major change this week. …

    police can seize a person’s assets on suspicion of a crime. No criminal activity has to be proven in a court. The onus is moved from the state to prove guilt, to the individual to prove that they have committed no criminal activity.

    more people have to give DNA samples and from next year all arrested people charged with an imprisonable offence will automatically have DNA samples taken,

    The Criminal Procedure Bills (both Part 1 and Part 2) however, are just the tip of the iceberg. The last few years have seen many fundamental changes to our justice system.

    I find it inconceivable that we are allowing these laws to pass through Parliament.
    And for those people who say that we have the Bill of Rights to protect ourselves, it may not be there for much longer. National has already given notice that they are also going to be reviewing that legislation.

    .

    • just saying 1.1

      Nor Labour until the change we keep hearing about develops beyond platitudes to substance.

      Labour voted for this.

      Lawyer Anne Stevens described the bill as the “efficient regime totalitarians dream about.”

      At least the Greens opposed it.

      Looks like it’s business as usual* from the Tweedle Trough team (all credit Rex for the apt description).

      *unintentional pun

      • Jenny 1.1.1

        Labour voted for this

        The above sentiment by Just Saying expresses the crying need for an independent left “fraction” in government.

        All left Labour supporters in Mana, should vote Matt McCarten tomorrow.
        .

        • Jenny 1.1.1.1

          .
          OOPS! Sorry the word should be “Faction” not “Fraction” my ignorance.

          For a better definition of a “Political Faction” go to wikipedia

          Examples of a Left Political Factions as given by Wikipedia in the Westminster System in the UK are: The Respect Party, and the Green Party of England and Wales.

          Arguably the Liberal Democrats, (though they may disagree with the term), could be described as a Right Fraction.

          • just saying 1.1.1.1.1

            The below is a reply Joe Carolan made today to a post about the Mana by-election, in Tumeke. Seems relevant.

            Joe Carolan: ” As the Battle of Mana draws to an end, a real victory has already been won. For the last month, the Serious Left in Aotearoa has united in struggle and put in the mahi, fighting on issues that concern working people and that embarass the party apparatchiks from Labour and National.

            What the final tally will be for Matt McCarten’s insurgent campaign, only Saturday can tell. But the New Left has fought hard for every vote it gets, whether high in the hills of Tawa or in the heart of Cannon’s Creek. Even those undecided about voting for Matt have supported his radical programme for full employment, higher incomes and tax justice. As he said himself- “If the people of Mana voted for what they wanted- we’d win by a landslide.”

            Another real victory that has been won is one for democracy itself. Rather than explain why their party does not support radical change, Labour have been pushing the line that a vote for Matt splits the Left. And they are noticably nervous about this- they are drafting in hundreds of volunteers, activists and union organisers for the last few days, and their more uncouth supporters are beginning to lose their tempers. And there’s a real reason why.

            Amongst the staunch working class, there’s a realisation that Phil Goff ain’t gonna win the national election in 2011. Labour are too soft, and are bereft of any tangible policies that make a difference to the working class. Their candidate, Kris Faafoi, was imposed on the local organisation from Goff’s office, and has barely been in the party for a year. Many workers see through the cynical tokenism from Labour HQ.

            The days of the Left being a One Party State are over, whether in the unions or in the political field. We’re going to need a REAL resistance movement when National win in 2011.
            As Labour stays firmly in the political centre, it needs to learn one lesson-

            We’re not splitting the Left vote- we ARE the Left vote.

            19/11/10 8:51 AM

            • Jenny 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Faafoi counters Carolan’s views

              TVNZ Friday:
              Labour confident in Mana. ….but it hasn’t been an easy campaign for the party that has held the seat for more than 50 years.

              McCarten has run a hard campaign, targeting people in the mainly low and middle-income electorate on the outskirts of Wellington with calls for the minimum wage to be lifted to $15 an hour and a sharp focus on unemployment, the cost of living and the housing shortage.

              “He’s made the job harder for us but we stepped up the effort and we’re confident we’re going to get there,” Faafoi said yesterday.

              “We don’t think he’s going to make that much of an impact that he would dent our chances of winning.”

        • Vicky32 1.1.1.2

          Labour voted for this? Why on earth!
          Deb

  2. Logie97 2

    Anyone else notice RedAlert giving oxygen to cetaceans and penguins recently?

  3. freedom 3

    The Global turning of the screws can be reversed, if we the people want it bad enough. A large group of people have been doing just that. A couple of days ago one particular group of hard working free people saw a MSM talking head admit they have ‘had their mind opened to other possibilities’. Geraldo Rivera , a long-time critic of 9/11Truth admitted something that i never expected to see, especially on FOX

    “clearly they know more than i do”
    Geraldo Rivera referring to the families and researchers for Buildingwhat.org , A&E9/11truth.org

    • The Voice of Reason 3.1

      Excellent work, another right wing supporter signed up. Another reason to keep opposing the fantasy.

      • freedom 3.1.1

        VTO, you really are incredibly boring! Or you just get off on being obstinate.
        I feel very sorry for anyone you supposedly care for as you obviously have no ability to extrapolate where things are heading, because if you did you would know the sufferring to come makes your views complicit witht the wishes of the criminals

        • The Voice of Reason 3.1.1.1

          Dunno about VTO, freedom, but boring to me is ignoring the political context of an argument in favour of the mindless repetition of sciencey bollocks in the hope that the sheer weight of the ennui that ensues will force the rational mind to collapse at twice the rate of freefall in a pyroplastic implosion of the kind that only the World Government has the means to cause.

          Righto, best go before SMERSH see through my tinfoil face mask and have me disappeared.

          • Anne 3.1.1.1.1

            Priceless VoR. Thanks for a good start to the day. 🙂

          • freedom 3.1.1.1.2

            guilty, that was a bit of a cock up on my part, not enough coffee. But a simple typo does not change the truth TVOR. You can get as sanctimonious as you like but Science is Science. Remember Reason, it is never too late to become a realist. Quick question, When you learnt to read did you learn the alphabet first or just pick up a copy of Umberto Eco. I ask because you seem to have very strong opinions on 9/11 with apparently no understanding of the events that transpired on the day.

            How exactly am i ignoring the political context of this argument. I am really interested to hear that one! If i began to include the extremely complicated and highly interesting political aspects of 9/11 Truth we would never get anywhere, that comes after Science has its day in court and proves the Official Story is a lie.
            p.s. did you even watch the Rivera interview, here is one of the most vocal opponents of 9/11 Truth changing his mind and doing all he can to get people to ask questions.

            That is all 9/11 Truth is about,
            getting people to ask simple questions of their Government and demand accurate answers

            why is that so disdainful to your psyche?

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.2.1

              You can get as sanctimonious as you like but Science is Science

              Not that I am disagreeing with anything specific you are saying, but ‘science’ as a scocio-political-economic activity is not what you might think it is.

              Just reading about who gets the credit, who gets the funding, the politics, the jealousies, the rubbish research and shonky statistics, the corporate funding, the publication of a positive paper while 100 negative ones are buried, the influence of private commercial interests; taken altogether ‘science’ is clearly not a god to be worshipped ahead of any other.

              • freedom

                The professional aspects of any vocation are prone to those complications and abuses, my own field of Art is no different, and the higher it goes the worse it gets.
                Personally i have never seen the attraction of living in glass castles when the land is prone to Earthquakes

                Back here on the ground though things have a better chance. With two feet firmly planted into reality i am talking about the data based sequence of verifiable information being used to respond to the posit that 2+2=4,

                Regardless of how Douglas Adams and others might view the undefinable nature of the Universe, we all agree accept and function from the base assurance that 2+2=4

              • nzfp

                Hey CV,
                Talking about 9/11 and Naked body Scanners… with regard to your question:

                who gets the funding

                Wasn’t Michael Chertoff the former Secretary of Homeland Security?
                Didn’t Michael Chertoff compare “9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial”
                Isn’t Michael Chertoff an advocate for Full Body Scanners?
                Isn’t Michael Chertoff’s company “The Chertoff Group” now supplying those same full body scanners that Michael Chertoff advocates?

                • freedom

                  hey nzfp,
                  ever notice how as soon as evidence is posted,
                  the deniers seem to be busy elsewhere?

  4. Bored 4

    Key is thinking of sending the NZ Navy south to get between the whalers and anti whalers….great for a photo opportunity, Key on the bridge saving the planet.

    In case anybody thinks that is all that is needed to save the whales, and has any illusions as to where Key really stands, have a look at where Key has placed us with regard to Kyoto and carbon emmissions. Precisely nowhere!

    Why mention this with the whales? Because whales eat krill which eat plankton which to survive need to be able to set body shells from dissolved calcium…which they are failing to do as the carbon we emit acidifies the ocean. Which means at present rate no whales (or fish) in 30 years. Great work Jonkey.

  5. jcuknz 5

    The punch line, three paras, from the op-ed in NYT today by Paul Clemen …

    ACROSS the nation, as in Detroit, there is an economic disconnect, a split between what the economic numbers say and how things feel on the ground. The economy is growing, but the unemployment rate hasn’t budged. The recession officially ended in June 2009, but more jobs have been lost than have been added since that “ending.”

    Handling this disconnect requires political acuity. It brings to mind something Philip Roth once said about those who have little feel for literature and the texture of lived experience it provides and so “theorize” it. Mr. Roth imagined a scene of a father giving his son this advice while attending a baseball game: “Now, what I want you to do is watch the scoreboard. Stop watching the field. Just watch what happens when the numbers change on the scoreboard. Isn’t that great?” Then Mr. Roth asks: “Is that politicizing the baseball game? Is that theorizing the baseball game? No, it’s having not the foggiest idea in the world what baseball is.”

    It’ll be fun, for a day or two, to look at the scoreboard, and to see what G.M.’s shares are going for: $26? $29? $33? $35? The numbers on the exchange will change; it’ll be great, and a welcome, temporary relief from the numbers, still difficult to comprehend, of jobs lost and plants closed. Soon enough, though, we’ll have to go back to watching what’s actually happening on the field, where there’s still a blowout in progress, with the home team way behind, and no one, seemingly, with the foggiest idea what to do about it.

    There is another op-ed , Nicholas D. Kristof, which goes along the lines of “How would you like the country to be owned by the top 1%? Hell it already is”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/opinion/18kristof.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a212
    with equally memorable and disturbing lines ….

  6. Bored 6

    Well done Rodney Hide. Great result. Fantastic theory, bigger rates bills. Jonkey and the support crew, what a great way to help Aucklanders, good effort. What a pack of f**k wits.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/4362967/Super-Auckland-proving-expensive

    • Vicky32 6.1

      Yes, congrats Wodders. (Did he know that’s what would happen, I wondered?)
      Deb

    • Armchair Critic 6.2

      Consider also that if ACT had listened to their own mantras they would not have amalgamated Auckland in the first place. After all, one of their mantras says it is competition that drives prices (or rates in this case) down, and creating a monopoly (i.e. amalgamating seven councils into one) does not encourage competition.
      Ironic then that they campaign on lowering local authority rates, then took actions that would raise rate and as a results rates rose.
      And weird that it wasn’t obvious to them.

  7. The Burden of Knowing, By Charles Hugh Smith

    This story was posted in Truth to Power’s Daily News Digest in May of this year. However, I am choosing to post the entire article here because of its powerful relevance in the lives of those who no longer live in denial of the current and future collapse of industrial civilization.–CB]

    Reprinted from OF TWO MINDS
    Knowing what lies ahead is a great emotional burden.

    read it here

    [lprent: Interesting – but you can read it in the above link. This site is for original comment. Link to it, quote parts from it. But add your own comment or I’ll cut it down. ]

  8. just saying 8

    Parts of that – Wow!

    Thanks for posting this in its entirety.

  9. freedom 9

    so we have America printing trillions of fake dollars to but back its own debt.

    China does not like this, as it owns most of America’s debt.
    China downgradesAmerica’s credit rating, then pops up to say hi during a Military exercise, then there is the ‘event ‘ off the coast of California which the Pentagon has said is a Jet taking off, an amateur rocket (biggest amateur rocket ever created then as it even fools military experts) and an optical illusion. Which is it guys? it cannot be all three , Maybe the most realistic option is the best one. It was a missile launched from one of the very same Subs that surprised the US Navy last week.

    these classic shows of strength are all part of the well practised prologue to War. When, how bad who knows? But these are not isolated incidents, this is an emphatic flexing of the muscles by China

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html

    • Pascal's bookie 9.1

      “Maybe the most realistic option is the best one”

      Agreed. It’s a vapour trail of a jet flying towards the viewer.

      • freedom 9.1.1

        seriously, a plane flying towards the viewer/ that is what you are going with?

        1. i never want to drive in a vehicle with you if that is an example of your depth perception
        -here is an image of the vapour trail in question from the TV footage http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ScreenHunter_29-Nov.-17-12.28.gif
        here is the tv footage

        how can you say this is a plane flying towards the viewer?

        here is the testimony of people who fired missiles for a living
        http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/17/gordon-duff-the-california-mystery-missile/

      • prism 9.1.2

        Is it coincidence that I have just come across the political cartoons of Raymond Briggs in When the Wind Blows? It is on the British authorities assisting citizens in dealing with the dropping of a nuclear bomb.

        The old couple in the book thought as they survived World War 2 they can manage similarly again. They trust in government, its wisdom, care and services and follow all the useless advice with muddled data such as thinking that MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) was a clever defence system. Mrs is reminded that her mother had a policy in an Assurance Company, it has a helpful and good sound. They survive the blast and wait for the social services to check, and wartime rationing measures to start, and where to get more water and why they can’t eat and stop their noses bleeding.

        • freedom 9.1.2.1

          a terrifying and tragically beautiful book, as all his works are, and i treasure everyone of them.
          ( I used to have a Gentleman Jim for PM button sent from the UK when the character from the books was put up as a candidate, but no idea where it went) there has also been some very powerful stage productions of the play, also a very good film with a haunting soundtrack.

          the simplicity of its message is one many in our fucked up world should visit with

      • Anne 9.1.3

        Saw the phenomena last week to the west of Auckland close to sunset. A high flying jet was moving eastward and it’s contrail was therefore moving towards the viewer.

        I’m reminded of the huge fuss in the 1970s over some strange lights in the sky off the coast of Kaikoura. Attracted much international attention. It was caused by an intense anti-cyclonic convergence zone at about 600-1000 ft. The result: the lights from a Japanese fishing fleet stationed just off the coast was being reflected in the sky. The cause was revealed within days, but the conspiracy theorists still give it an airing from time to time.

        • freedom 9.1.3.1

          yeah and Elvis is in my lounge eating Peanut Butter Burgers
          do not equate this with a ufo sighting and it has nothing to do with passenger jets.

          This is a missile launch, Commercial Jet contrails do not take this shape, ever!
          They cannot physically climb with such a steep angle of ascent and according to all Air Traffic Control in the area, no plane was headed in that direction at the time or even had left the ground during the minutes preceeding the event.

          I know it is scarey to admit that bad things happen, but the fact is, they do!
          This is simply what it looks like, a missile launch off the coast of the United States.
          What that means is anyone’s guess but it is not a jet Airliner heading into the wild blue yonder

          • Pascal's bookie 9.1.3.1.1

            Then the only rational response is a first strike against whoever did it. They have signalled their hositile intent, their capability and their irrationality. Bombs away!!

          • Pascal's bookie 9.1.3.1.2

            Look at this missile smashing into a mountain:

            http://blog.chicagoweathercenter.com/2006/01/contrails-at-sunset.html

            And this deluded local is obviously confused, he has been photographing ICBM launches off the Californian coast for yonks. And he didn’t even know it!!

            (sorry for ths snark, but you started it)

            http://uncinus.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/4/

            Lot’s of picture there that look very much like the recent one.

            • freedom 9.1.3.1.2.1

              yes i had those pointed out to me and yes some of it is highly relevant to other events. In this event however the helicopter in the video, the rate and angle of ascent are valid points of reference and are not descriptive of a vehicle coming towards the viewer.
              Many people get confused by perspective, which still leaves the question of the Official Story… what flight was it that made the contrail as Air Traffic say they had no planes they can attribute to that flightpath at the time. More importantly it is the wishywashy changing of answers from the Pentagon and the increased military aviation activity in the area.

              if the Pentagon is so sure it is a contrail from a commercial passenger jet, where is the jet? why did it take 36 hours to say it is ‘likely to be from an aircraft’ .
              The Pentagon also called it an amateur rocket and a weather balloon releasing gas*.
              (*this comment has since been removed and i am pissed i didn’t screengrab it)

              one last opinion, this time from a retired Secretary of Defense on CBS
              http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7038111n&tag=related;photovideo

              • freedom

                final question, then i self-ban for the day
                The contrail can be proven to have an origin 35 miles off the coast of Los Angeles, No Navy, Army or Air Force vessel is said to be in the area, or capable of the action at the time, No ‘Official missile launches from the Pentagon, and the Coast Guard have no vehicles suitable to cause the event. So it leaves a very interesting question

                What could have taken off 35 miles out at Sea?

                • Armchair Critic

                  It’s a long stretch from “the US authorities not telling the truth” (how out of character would that be?) to “a Chinese submarine launching an ICBM 35 miles from the east coast”.
                  I expect there will never be a definitive answer, but I’m sure whatever the truth is, it will probably involve the US military not telling the whole truth.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  contrail starts/=taken off.

                  • mcflock

                    indeed – and it looked to me like the plume/trail was reflecting sunlight below the dusk line at the start of the video. Which would be impossible if it was, in fact, below the dusk level. BUT if it was up high it must have been going bloody fast.

                    Maybe freedom would prefer a a retro 90s explanation – ISTR it was called AURORA, a theorised super-secret hyper-velocity surveillance platform that was suppose to be a generation on from the SR-71?

                    Ah well, 9 years and the world seems to be returning to normal…

        • KJT 9.1.3.2

          I was on a ship going past the squid fleet at the time. I thought the whole thing was rather funny. It was helped along by a hoax from an airline pilot and some Otago Uni Students about the same time.

          The other thing around that time was Muldoon saying on TV that there was no more than a couple of dozen Japanese fishing boats in NZ waters at the same time as we counted 65 between Lyttelton and Timaru alone. All steaming hell for leather for the 12 mile limit as soon as they spotted us on the radar.

          Lying politicians are not a new thing! 🙂

          • Anne 9.1.3.2.1

            Yep. Remember some of that KJT. Very funny. What was even funnier was the reluctance of the media to reveal the truth. They didn’t like the facts getting in the way of a darn good story.

            Nothing new in that either 🙂

      • Pascal's bookie 9.1.4

        So instead you are going with the theory that the Chinese launched an ICBM from inside US territorial waters?

        What do you think the US response would be to such a detected missile launch? How long do you think the Chinese would have to alert the US (and the Russians) that this was a test and not an armed bird? Given the flight time to potential targets, how much credence do you think the US or the Russions would give to any such assurances?

        What you are saying is that the chinese risked a massive counterstrike from both nuclear superpowers to prove a point that they have already proved in the other sub incident.

        • freedom 9.1.4.1

          Can you think of a better way to let them know who has the aces?

          and a small point to consider is the source of the tape
          “the eyewitness, an aerial photographer who has worked on news helicopters over the skies of LA for eleven years.’
          It would suggest the dude might know what a jet contrail looks like in his own backyard

          • Pascal's bookie 9.1.4.1.1

            “Can you think of a better way to let them know who has the aces?”

            The idea is to show you have a big stick, in a way that your opponent does not feel the need to immediatly shoot you dead because you are charging at them with a big stick. To charge at them with what looks like a big stick, but is actually a balsa wood decoy, from a distance of about 5 metres, is not real smart.

            So yeah, if I put my mind to it I reckon I could think of a better way.

        • joe90 9.1.4.2

          I live on the west coast just north of Whanganui and if that’s a missile then there must several firings over the Tasman every evening. Or perhaps it’s identical to the con-trails I’d see in early may…..

        • nzfp 9.1.4.3

          Hey PB,
          In 2007 a Chinese submarine surfaced within torpedo range of the aircraft carrier, U.S.S. Kitty Hawk! It eluded at least 12 other warships in the fleet that protects this carrier, and all that expensive technology failed to detect the new and uninvited member of the U.S. fleet.. Nothing happened – except that China demonstrated emphatically to the US that they could get within striking distance of their most expensive strategic military assets anywhere in the world.

          Source: MailOnline.

          The theory that this was a Chinese Missile launch was proposed by former NSA specialist Wayne Madsen. You can listen to Wayne Madsens account of the incident and the justification for the assertion on his podcast here

          Missle launched off Pacific coast?
          clips:
          ALERT: Mystery Missile Launch Seen off Calif. Coast 11/09/
          Missile fired off the coast of Los Angeles – ICBM fired off the coast of South Bay
          “Mystery Missile” off L.A. Coast – Ret. Gen. “It was a missile” Michio Kaku “It was an illusion”

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.4.4

          US territorial waters extend 12 miles from the coast, right?

          A submarine could have been stationed 50 miles off the coast of the US, in international waters and launched. (The classic horror scenario from the Cold War, cities would have less than 10 minutes warning of an attack)

          Further the risk of the US launching a counter-strike is a real one: but who would the US launch it at? Was it the Chinese or the Russians? Or the North Koreans in a Russian sub? Or a splinter group who had hijacked someone else’s sub? That’s the awesomesauce of it.

          Assuming it was a Chinese missile it didn’t need to be an ICBM either. A short range missile would not travel as quickly, as far (or it could have been self destructed a few miles up), and would not have as powerful an infrared signature as an ICBM. I am guessing that military sensors would have figured all that out pretty quick.

          Would the Chinese have played such a risky game with the US military? nzfp has pointed out that they would and that they have. An enemy sub getting into striking range of a carrier group is pretty scary for any navy. Publicly the US just shrugged it off but I am sure that consternation at the top levels would have been huge.

          Nothing like that of a sub launched missile test fire a few dozen miles off the coast of the US though.

          • Pascal's bookie 9.1.4.4.1

            But subs playing around in excercises is par for the course. It’s what subs do.

            Launching a fricking missile just off the coast?

            I’m struggling to think of something that could be more provocative.

            If you have to have a conspiricy, surely it’s more likely that this was a US missile that they are denying knowledge of while seeding the idea that it was a Chinese one. Those damn chinese, can’t say anything publically, but look at the dirty tricks they pull, inscrutable little bastards. Why, they are fucking our economy too! Be afeared everybody! be afeared!!

            • nzfp 9.1.4.4.1.1

              Hey PB – easy,

              Those damn chinese, can’t say anything publically

              Surfacing the sub in the middle of a Naval exercise in 2007 was a very clear public statement. If this was a Chinese missle then it too is a very clear public statement. They are stating that they can deploy second strike capability if necessary. Remember that China only has 400 nuclear missiles – probably less then Israel. Chinese strategists have demonstrated that you only need slightly over 300 nuclear weapons to ensure complete retaliation to any number of enemies – total assured mutual destruction. You don’t need thousands (5000) like the US and Russia or hundreds hundreds like Israel.

              The US is rattling it’s sabres at China. All of the anti-Iran rhetoric is also directed at China, because China are courting Iran to solve it’s energy needs. China have a lot invested in Iran. The recent Chinese / Turkish air exercises included fly through and refuelling stops for Chinese Migs in Iran. This was another clear statement to the US and Israel about china’s intentions to maintain political stability in the middle-east – i.e. prevent the US and Israel invading Iran.

              Bear in mind that the US has been performing Naval exercises with South Korea in the China Sea all within striking distance of Mainland Chinese assets for many years.

              Why, they are fucking our economy too

              Easy PB, you know it wasn’t the Chinese that created and sold the fraudulent mortgage backed securities – in fact many chinese intitutes were also victims of the over selling of fake mortgages in those toxic CDO’s.

              China own soo much US debt – that is they have a lot invested in the value of the dollar. If the dollar falls in value they lose billions of dollars.

              • Pascal's bookie

                I think I was unclear.

                Given all you state, and accepting it is true for the sake of argument, why would the chinese need to do this particular thing right now? They could demonstrate the capability in far less dangerous, (for them) ways.

                The question I’m wondering is this :

                Isn’t it also in the US interest for people (particularly US citizens) to think the Chinese are playing these sort of games? Why would people who are ready to believe that the US would run 9/11 as a black flag (though I’m not saying this is your position), reject the possibility that this too is a black flag op? Why, all of a sudden, are US military denials that they knew anything about t, accepted.

                Personally I’m going with the airplane theory myself, till more convincing rationales are put forward.

                But if it was a chinese missile, then I assume there would have been a fairly extensive hunt for the sub. It’s one thing to be able to sneak in when no one knows you are coming, it’s quite an another thing to sneak out again when everyone knows you are there. The sheer provocativeness of this act would be propaganda gold for the US. The Chinese are still desperate to show that they are responsible global citizens and if busted doing this sort of reckless crap then that could hurt all of that effort.

                • nzfp

                  Assuming the premise that the missile was a Chinese launch:

                  They could demonstrate the capability in far less dangerous, (for them) ways.

                  They did, the missile was fired at China to impact on Chinese soil. The US military would have been immediately aware of that fact. However they would have immediately been aware that a Chinese nuclear capable submarine was within striking distance of anythin in the continental USA.

                  why would the chinese need to do this particular thing right now

                  Because they are in a currency war with the US. The US are also rattling sabers at China directly as in the maneuvers in the China Sea as well as indirectly with the US hostilities in Yemen and Somalia threatening to choke off the straits between the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden as well as the threats against Iran which would end with Iran closing the straits of Hormuz. consequently the US would control one vital oil route with it’s military in Somalia and Yemen (look at a map of the resion). While Iran has closed off the other strait – meaning the price of oil would sky rocket.

                  Remember that almost all oil is traded in US dollars. If the price of oil skyrockets to $200/barrel there would be an almighty demand for US dollars to trade for oil – instantly re-capitalising all of the failed big 6 banks (JPMC, BofA, GS, Citi, MS, W) and pulling the US financial sector out of the depression. Great for the US banks – bad for us and the average American citizen. Consequently, China are demonstrating that they have the capacity and capability to project power with their Navy removing the US myth of full spectrum dominance.

                  Remember that the European Union are in a currency war with the US as well. That’s why the US and British media attacked the state of the PIIGS economies so much.

                  Playing Devils advocate here:

                  Why, all of a sudden, are US military denials that they knew anything about t, accepted.

                  Because it represents a huge embarrassment to the US Navy. The US Navy used to have the capacity to monitor anywhere on the US shores for foreign Naval vessels – unfortunately they don’t have that capability anymore and this would prove that (assuming the initial premise).

                  Consequently, if the Navy admitted this fact – they would have to admit – to the world – that the US military capability is not as strong as it claims to be.

                  Consider that the war in Iraq was almost lost in 2007 when Moqtada Al Sadr and the Sadirst army had the US forces completely surrounded and cut off from supplies. Bush had even considered a nuclear option. It took the bribing of the Sadirists to allow convoys through to prevent the nuclear option.

                  Consider that the US is losing in Afghanistan – they only control their bases and the land immediately adjacent – except at night when they only control the bases – except the bases they are forced to abandon. NATO allies like France are abandoning bases they’ve taken over from the US because of the risk. The Italians were literally bribing the Afghani’s to stop them attacking them.

                  But if it was a chinese missile, then I assume there would have been a fairly extensive hunt for the sub.

                  You would wouldn’t you – yet the US failed to spot the Chinese torpedo sub that surfaced next to the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier with 5,624 naval personnel. Neither the aircraft carrier nor the 12 other support vessels including anti-sub vessels. I’d guess that it went back the way it came.

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    Consider that the war in Iraq was almost lost in 2007 when Moqtada Al Sadr and the Sadirst army had the US forces completely surrounded and cut off from supplies. Bush had even considered a nuclear option. It took the bribing of the Sadirists to allow convoys through to prevent the nuclear option.

                    That sounds interesting, I followed things pretty closely, particularly Sadr’s mob. Got links?

                    However they would have immediately been aware that a Chinese nuclear capable submarine was within striking distance of anythin in the continental USA.

                    But what’s news about that?

                    Do you think oil would continue to be priced in US dollars if Iran, Iraq, Russia, China, India and the EU there was a better way?

              • Colonial Viper

                If the dollar falls in value they lose billions of dollars.

                yeah its already a bit late on this front. US commentators are quite openly saying that China will never get all of its USD denominated foreign currency holdings (Treasuries etc) back in terms of value. The greenback is simply going to erode as the Fed prints more and more. If China is not going to let the renmenbi appreciate towards the USD, the US is simply going to depreciate the USD towards the renmenbi. easy eh.

                They are stating that they can deploy second strike capability if necessary. Remember that China only has 400 nuclear missiles – probably less then Israel.

                My understanding is that the US is very confident of being able to take out the vast majority of the Chinese nuclear arsenal very quickly, and that the Chinese have deliberately not invested the money, time and resources needed to establish a credible second strike capability. However China would be able to launch back a handful of warheads, and cause US civilian casualties but no big deal from a military standpoint. And even the latest Chinese submarines were considered by the USN as noisier than 20 year old Russian Akulas and easier to detect.

                Perhaps not any more. Perhaps.

                Anyhows – China has a bigger deterrent than even the biggest most costly nuclear arsenal. It is America's lender of last resort. No one else in the world holds that position.

                PB said

                The sheer provocativeness of this act would be propaganda gold for the US. The Chinese are still desperate to show that they are responsible global citizens

                Actually if you monitor Chinese actions, they continue not to have a particular care for what ‘westerners’ think of them of their methodologies. Obama, Geithner and the rest of the G20 pleading with China to let the yuan appreciate? I think China gave the assembled dignatories a very calm and orientally impassive ‘up yours’.

                Plus if this really is China (and none of us out here know), I do believe that the change in power in Congress will have influenced their decision making.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Fair enough, but I think there is huge difference saying up yours about a currency peg, and launching a missile just off the coast of nuclear superpower. Saying ‘up yours’ about what you do with your own currency is perfectly normal international behaviour.

                  • nzfp

                    But China is dealing with a Regime that dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan – who had already surrendered to China, as well as armed Israel to the teeth to holocaust 1400 (third of which were children) Palestinians in Gaza, as well as invaded Iraq (1,000,000 deaths a third children as well) based on lies, as well as Afghanistan (unknown number of civilian deaths) also based on lies.

                    The US is preparing to invade Pakistan – and is already destabilizing Pakistan. The US is putting bases in to completely surround both China and Russia.

                    China isn’t the aggressor.

                • nzfp

                  Actually CV this is very important

                  Actually if you monitor Chinese actions, they continue not to have a particular care for what ‘westerners’ think of them of their methodologies

                  China is far less hegemonistic then any nation in the West (Europe, Russia, The US). Between 1405 and 1433, the Ming government sponsored a series of seven naval expeditions. The Yongle emperor designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin and extend the empire’s tributary system.

                  Zheng He (Muslim) was placed as the admiral in control of the huge fleet and armed forces (28,000) that undertook these expeditions. Zheng He’s fleets visited Arabia, Brunei, East Africa, India, Malay Archipelago and Thailand (at the time called Siam), dispensing and receiving goods along the way.

                  It is important to note, that after 25years of Naval exploration, the ships returned, China turned it’s back on the world and closed it’s borders.

                  Zheng He was a Muslim, as evidence of his high regard for temples and places of worship of other religions, the Galle Trilingual Inscription stone tablet, erected by Zheng He around 1410 in Sri Lanka records details about contributions of gold, silver, and silk that he made at a Buddhist mountain temple.

                  Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Yes I have some fleeting (lol) familiarity with that narrative. More recently however, the dividing up of China by western colonial/corporate powers (19th and early 20th century), including ceeding Hong Kong to Great Britain, left an indelible mark on the Chinese outlook.

                    My feeling is that the Chinese learnt to view trade and economic development as a political tool at least as strong as any military force, both in internal local affairs and in global affairs. I would even go so far to say that the Chinese learnt to use predictable American corporate mercantilism to strengthen their own hand, even as they hollowed out American industry and employment from the inside.

    • felix 9.2

      This may be illuminating in explaining the illusion: http://contrailscience.com/

  10. ianmac 10

    Morning Report, Sue Ingram. Well! Who would have thought that the millions of $s given to film companies have no evidence that there is an economic advantage to NZ and may even be a net loss!

    “Despite doling out millions of taxpayer dollars to attract international movie studios here, the government can’t yet tell if subsidies for big-budget films are helping the economy. (duration: 3′45″)”
    [audio src="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20101119-0846-Despite_subsidies,_film_sectors_economic_gains_unclear-048.mp3" /]

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      As I’ve said – if the government really wanted to get the benefit of movies being produced here it would be done through NZ on Air and only using NZ companies – not through subsidising foreign business.

  11. freedom 12

    ignore this test

  12. joe90 13

    This is very good and filled with links about the fraud perpetrated by the denial industry.

    The Real Story of Climategate.

    This was not the work of a computer-savvy teenager that liked to hack security systems for fun. Whoever the thief was, they knew what they were looking for. They knew how valuable the emails could be in the hands of the climate change denial movement.

    • ianmac 13.1

      It must take great deal of time/money to be a Denier.
      Wonder what the Deniers have to gain? Follow the money? Political advantage? Or what?

      • nzfp 13.1.1

        Denier, oh you mean holocaust denier don’t you! yes you do – you mean holocaust denier!

        Since when has skeptic meant denier – are you redefining the english language or are you using guilt by association – in this case associating skeptism with holocaust denial. using logical fallacies is a form of deceit – which equates to lies – which equates to using lies to support an argument – invalidating the argument.

        Lets not forget all of the money spent on the 10:10 campaign – just like the Israeli’s you would like to see all holocaust – I mean climate change – deniers blown up, especially the children – yeah especially the children, I think that was the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen on paid advertising – especially as it took an awful lot of money to fund it!

        By the way – who are the Sultanate of Oman, British Petroleum and Shell who financially supported the creation of The Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the School of Environmental Sciences (ENV) at the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich in 1972? You’re right – it does take a lot of money:

        History of the Climatic Research Unit

        Acknowledgements
        This list is not fully exhaustive, but we would like to acknowledge the support of the following funders (in alphabetical order):

        British Council, British Petroleum, Broom’s Barn Sugar Beet Research Centre, Central Electricity Generating Board, Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS), Commercial Union, Commission of European Communities (CEC, often referred to now as EU), Council for the Central Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCLRC), Department of Energy, Department of the Environment (DETR, now DEFRA), Department of Health, Department of Trade and Industry (DTI), Eastern Electricity, Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC), Environment Agency, Forestry Commission, Greenpeace International, International Institute of Environmental Development (IIED), Irish Electricity Supply Board, KFA Germany, Leverhulme Trust, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF), National Power, National Rivers Authority, Natural Environmental Research Council (NERC), Norwich Union, Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, Overseas Development Administration (ODA), Reinsurance Underwriters and Syndicates, Royal Society, Scientific Consultants, Science and Engineering Research Council (SERC), Scottish and Northern Ireland Forum for Environmental Research, Shell, Stockholm Environment Agency, Sultanate of Oman, Tate and Lyle, UK Met. Office, UK Nirex Ltd., United Nations Environment Plan (UNEP), United States Department of Energy, United States Environmental Protection Agency, Wolfson Foundation and the World Wildlife Fund for Nature (WWF).

        Who frames the debate – you want environmental responsibility, start talking about economic democracy! Everything else is just a waste of time to distract you from the real problem.

        • ianmac 13.1.1.1

          OK You win nzfp. Deniers cannot possibly be Skeptics. So what do deniers skeptics have to gain from their position?

          • nzfp 13.1.1.1.1

            You tell me – I’m skeptical as you know. My concern is in the way the debate is being framed. The whole debate is framed to produce an outcome that requires CO2 taxes.

            A Carbon tax will do nothing – the real solution is a change in the economic system – from private banking to publicly issued credit – the difference will force down consumption by reducing the need to overproduce to get the revenue to pay the bank interest on private bank debt.

            The problem is that this is not part of the debate.

            The debate is as follows:

            Thesis: Human behaviour is killing the planet (I agree)
            Anti-Thesis: CO2 gases are the cause (I disagree – CO2 is only a symptom)
            Synthesis: impose carbon tax to resolve the problem (I disagree)
            Hegelian dialectic (requires control of the debate): The entire debate is conducted in the corporate media which only presents the message above – and nothing else.

            The real problem is the economic system we live in – which underlies corporate behavior.

            Skeptics like me would like to see honest debate instead of this bullshit holocaust denial rubbish.

            Debate with me on how a change in the economic system will resolve human environmental degradation – which is undeniable. The solution to the economic system will resolve my concerns with regard to environmental and more importantly to me at least social and societal sustainability as well as your concerns about climate change – which should also include my concerns by default.

            I believe debating the science is irrelevant – I’ve seen both sides of the coin and there are a lot of fundamentalists on each side. however what is undeniable is our impact on the planet – both sides agree – Gulf of Mexico and BP are a case in point. Debating the science is a waste of time because neither side will budge – and I believe it is a distraction – it is a red flag to keep our attention focused on the wrong thing while the real issue slips behind both sides.

            Care to debate – although I have to go and catch a bus now… But I would like to engage you on this debate.

      • joe90 13.1.2

        My money is on the Koch brothers and their wars on Obama and clean energy.

      • Vicky32 13.1.3

        I was going to wax extremely hostile about that, but then I saw that nzfp had put it much better than I could have. Climate change ‘denier’ (sceptic) here…. Make of that what you will, but I assure there’s no money or political advantage in it for me!
        Deb

    • nzfp 13.2

      This was not the work of a computer-savvy teenager

      No it wasn’t – it was a leak from an insider who “knew what they were looking for” and who knew “how valuable the emails could be in the hands” of skeptics.

      captcha:sciences – the sciences are not politics.

  13. joe90 14

    Good faith, tui, anyone?.

    Victorian water minister Tim Holding has this morning denied all knowledge of the operation – code named Pluto – run by notorious strikebreaker and the man dubbed “Australia’s number one scab”, Bruce Townsend.

  14. Tigger 15

    Front page of the Press is a good example of why public transport should be properly funded and managed.

    Not a fan of contracted out public services and it’s hard to see how committed have benefitted from ‘the market’ here.

  15. prism 16

    Contracting out – when the crunch comes the lead firm may take no responsibility or try to disappear into the woodwork – it’s not us it’s SEP.

    Interesting how the recent Wellington damage and outage was reported on Google –
    Power cut to 4000 in central Wellington – Yahoo!Xtra News
    Power cut to 4000 in central Wellington. NZPA November 13, 2010, 10:43 am … traffic lights were down in Wellington this morning after a contractor hit an …

    No mention till later of Wellington Electricity, the responsible entity.

    • D14 16.1

      These are the Wellington Electricity directors.
      One Nz, 1 Aussie, Rest in Hong Kong

      Tsien Hua Joanna CHEN
      Residential Address: Hong Kong ,

      Richard Samuel GROSS
      Kew, Victoria 3101 ,

      Andrew John HUNTER
      Hong Kong ,

      Full legal name: Hing Lam KAM
      , Hong Kong ,

      Neil Douglas MCGEE
      Hong Kong ,
      ]
      Richard Clive PEARSON
      Auckland ,

      Chao Chung Charles TSAI
      Hong Kong ,

      Kai Sum TSO
      Hong Kong ,

      • prism 16.1.1

        So Wellington Electricity is mostly owned by Hong Kong investors. All about them – (they have a smart little logo (we* which makes them more remote than using the full name, but that’s how business operates these days.

        “Who are we*?
        Wellington Electricity is an electricity distributor – our core business is to manage the poles, wires and equipment that deliver electricity to about 160,000 homes and businesses in the Wellington, Porirua and Hutt Valley regions of New Zealand.
        We are committed to providing the highest possible level of reliability, safety and quality in the delivery of electricity to our customers.”

        Q Why couldn’t NZs invest in such a blue chip business? A 1 Possibly they weren’t given a chance. 2 The finance companies paid an extra half percent return. 3 There is no reliable aggregating trust that could bring together small investors (say minimum of $5000) to make a bid for a good market price and keep in NZ ownership? Is that what an equity trust does? Or is it come under the venture capital heading?

  16. I see that the NZ Herald have a short video on their website in which a small sample of Mana residents were questioned at random about their voting intentions ahead of tomorrow’s by-election, and their reasons for choosing their preferred candidate. Unsurprisingly, those backing Labour and National could not name a single policy put forward by either of those two parties or indeed give any political reason at all for their decision to vote for that party’s candidate. Instead they gave pathetic answers such as “because I always vote for them” or “the candidate is a nice person”, confirming once again the abysmally low levels of political consciousness among the NZ voting public – see:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10688228gallery_id=115236

    It does appear though that the vacuous one aka Kris Faafoi will win fairly easily tomorrow, though Matt ought to carve away at least some of the 2008 Labour majority. The question is, will Matt’s vote be high enough to justify future Unite-backed working class electoral interventions? (here’s one unreconstructed socialist at least who’s fervently hoping so!)

    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      Policy is not important at this juncture, values are. And the Left will work for the many while the Right has and will always work for the few.

      NATs next blood nose = Botany.

  17. Pascal's bookie 18

    Too rich.

    Tina Fey wins an award right. Makes a speech. her award, she gets to make a speech. She makes some cutting remarks about Sarah Palin:

    “And, you know, politics aside, the success of Sarah Palin and women like her is good for all women — except, of course, those who will end up, you know, like, paying for their own rape kit ‘n’ stuff. But for everybody else, it’s a win-win. Unless you’re a gay woman who wants to marry your partner of 20 years — whatever. But for most women, the success of conservative women is good for all of us. Unless you believe in evolution. You know what? Actually, I take it back. The whole thing’s a disaster.”

    Is it nice? Nope. But shit.

    No says satire has to be nice.
    Nor funny for that matter.
    This is kind of central to the point in fact.

    The producers of the awards show? They cut this excerpt from the broadcast.

    Here’s what is funny, in a way that is, (again), central to the point:

    The name of the award they were giving her?

    “The Mark Twain Prize for American Humor.”

    http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2010/11/would_mark_twain_have_edited_tina_fey.html

    • freedom 18.1

      i think he would have seen the funny side

      “The funniest things are the forbidden.” Mark Twain 1879

  18. Draco T Bastard 19

    The cost of contracting out

    For the past two decades we’ve seen a concerted push to contract out central and local government services to the private sector. Transport. Cleaning. Water. Prisons. Today, we saw where that push leads, as 28 Christchurch buses were ordered off the road for safety defects:

    More proof that privatisation of public services is bad for us and will end up costing us big time. This on top of:

    Telecom and the need for us to put in even more of our tax money into telecommunications despite the 10s of billions that we’ve already put in (the sale of Telecom shows a dead weight loss of between 10 and 20 billion dollars)
    Electricity as competition and dividend takes by government and private shareholders push prices up ever higher
    Rail and the billions that will be needed to restore that to an operative state so that, as fuel for trucks runs out, we can still actually move stuff around the country

    And NACT are setting up even more failure due to their idoelogy by having meat exporters self regulating. Just as they had the builders self-regulate in the 1990s and which is now costing us billions of dollars in leaky homes and increased ill-health.

    We really need to know just how much damage neo-liberalism has done to our economy and start to discuss what we can do to repair that damage.

    • john 19.1

      THE MARKET PRIVATIZATION CON

      Now here is another blatantly obvious, common-as-dirt fact: The market is designed to make money. If you rely on the market to achieve social goals — such as the reduction of poverty, or the provision of public services,such as ACC and Water, necessary for the common good — then you will fail. And these failures, will generally be catastrophic, exacerbating the problems they are intended (or purporting) to address.
      Seeking to “make money while filling a social need.” These are two entirely separate endeavors, with two entirely separate goals. Once a market is created, with whatever benign intentions, it is inevitable that it will be used, and eventually dominated, by those seeking to maximize their profits, regardless of social needs. There is no great scandal in this fact; that’s what markets are for.
      You cannot fruitfully address social problems with a mechanism designed to create private profit.Yet multitudes are suffering and dying all over the world from this delusion. And because it augments the wealth and dominance of the powerful, this corrosive myth will continue to be propagated with evangelical fervor by those same elites and their sycophants — to the detriment of social needs, of national security, of the common good and the daily lives of countless individuals.

      • john 19.1.1

        The home of NeoLiberal God FreeMarket, which ACT-nat wish to bring on here even further had 50,000,000 (million!) people going hungry last year,while the Wall Street High Priests of God FreeMarket took home millions and millions in bonuses:It’s obvious God FreeMarket requires the human sacrifice of ordinary mere mortals to appease his money lust,rather like the Aztecs did!Blood was the currency in the latter!
        Refer link from a right wing Brit paper the mail:

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330254/50MILLION-Americans-starve-Wall-Street-executive-pay-rockets.html

        “The truth is that there really are Americans who are starving. Don’t look at the fat ones, go to a homeless shelter in a large city or a soup kitchen anywhere in America. What’s more is that most Americans who’d like to see our leaders in Washington fight poverty instead of wars. They’d rather spend billions on bombs, rockets and bank bailouts rather than food, clothing and shelter for their poorest. American employers would also rather hire illegal aliens from Mexico than Americans, simply because they will work for one or two dollars per hour less than an American. Conservatives are the reason illegals are in the US in the first place. Liberals are the reason they’re allowed to stay. Both liberals and conservatives have turned their backs on homeless, unemployed Americans. Even homeless disabled veterans get no respect once they re-enter civilian life.

        This is the new America, folks. Give it another year before the US economy hits the wall and the US becomes a third-world country.”

        • john 19.1.1.1

          Another example of God Free Market’s people killing powers: the case of Ireland:REfer

          http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26872.htm

          The whole international crisis of the last three years is portrayed vividly in the Irish story. Crazily irresponsible, greed-maddened, self-serving private citizens in control of the commanding heights of the economy, and running things for their own benefit. A system that lets them go scot free from the catastrophe they made for millions of people.

          Politicians who are in the pockets of the very rich. Who put in billions of taxpayers’ money to rescue the bankers.

          In Ireland politicians have long scarcely bothered to hide corruption. Charles J Haughey, Taoiseach [prime minister] in the 1980s and early 90s, took a million pounds from the man who owns the Dunne’s chain-store network, and didn’t spend a day’s time in jail for it. Now the politicians are hand in glove with the looting bankocrats to the tune of billions.

  19. joe90 20

    In Protest, 50 pictures from around the world. The Americas, Asia, Europe and even Africa, people are not happy.

    • nzfp 20.1

      hah – I was just on boston.com looking for a link in a response to one of your posts – how ironic.

      Go the protestors!!!

      4. The Polish anti-fascists – Poles had a “P” on their stripped pyjamas in the concentration camps.

      6. A third of all US homeless are veterans.

      9. The first Chilean woman is wearing a Palestinian Khefiyee.

      • ianmac 20.1.1

        But no photo of the protest in Napier at the cuts of ECE. Mind you they were law abiding and polite until Chris Tremain (National) spoke.
        nzpf Seriously the anger in 50 Protests suggests that not everyone believes that Market rules etc are welcome any longer.

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.2

        6. A third of all US homeless are veterans.

        With extremely high rates of both diagnosed and undiagnosed mental health problems amongst returned US servicemen, this is a sad but predictable scenario.

        • joe90 20.1.2.1

          It’s worse than that CV with a fifth of all suicides in the US veterans and the post war suicide numbers likely exceeding combat deaths. Same old though, exchanging the lives of their someone else’s sons for profit.

          • Colonial Viper 20.1.2.1.1

            I am running with Michael Moore’s military policy: any time there is a new US war it should be paid for by a tax levied on the wealthiest 10% in the US, and it should be (partially) soldiered by a draft of the children of those same people.

            Predicted upshot: sweet FA US led wars for the next century.

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